NFL Team by Team Picks and Grades

[DraftBoy]

Arizona
1 (16) Dominic Rodgers-Cromartie CB Tennessee State
2 (50) Calais Campbell DE Miami
3 (81) Early Doucet WR Louisiana State
4 (116) Kenny Iwebema DE Iowa
5 (149) Tim Hightower RB Richmond
6 (185) Chris Harrington DE Texas A&M
7 (225) Brandon Keith OT Nothern Iowa

Best Pick-WR Early Doucet
Worst Pick-RB Tim Hightower
Sleeper Pick-OT Brandon Keith
“Huh?” Pick-DE Chris Harrington
Grade: B+

Atlanta
1 (3) Matt Ryan QB Boston College
1 (21) Sam Baker OT Southern California
2 (37) Curtis Lofton ILB Oklahoma
3 (68) Chevis Jackson CB Louisisana State
3 (84) Harry Douglas WR Louisville
3 (98) Thomas DeCoud S California
5 (138) Rob James OLB Arizona State
5 (154) Kory Bierman DE Montana
6 (172) Thomas Brown RB Georgia
7 (212) Wilrey Fontenot CB Arizona
7 (232) Keith Zinger TE Louisiana State

Best Pick-S Thomas DeCoud
Worst Pick-DE Kory Bierman
Sleeper Pick-RB Thomas Brown
“Huh?” Pick-LB Rob James
Grade: B


Baltimore
1 (18) Joe Flaco QB Delaware
2 (55) Ray Rice RB Rutgers
3 (71) Tavares Gooden LB Miami
3 (86) Tom Zbikowski S Notre Dame
3 (99) Oneil Cousins OG Texas El Paso
4 (106) Marcus Smith WR New Mexico
4 (133) David Hale OT Weber State
6 (206) Haruki Nakaruma S Cincinnati
7 (215) Justin Harper WR Virginia Tech
7 (240) Allen Patrick RB Oklahoma

Best Pick-LB Tavares Gooden
Worst Pick- S Tom Zbikowski
Sleeper Pick-OT David Hale
“Huh?” Pick-WR Marcus Smith
Overall:BH-

Buffalo
1 (11) Leodis McKelvin CB Troy
2 (41) James Hardy WR Indiana h
3 (72) Chris Ellis DE Virginia Tech
4 (114) Reggie Corner CB Akron
4 (132) Derek Fine TE Kansas
5 (147) Alvin Bowen OLB Iowa State
6 (179) Xavier Omon RB Northwest Missouri State
7 (219) Demetrius Bell OT Northwestern State
7 (224) Steve Johnson WR Kentucky
7 (251) Kernnard Cox CB Pittsburg

Best Pick-WR James Hardy
Worst Pick-CB Reggie Corner
Sleeper Pick-WR Steve Johnson
“Huh?” Pick-CB Kernnard Cox
Overall: C

Carolina
1 (13) Jonathan Stewart RB Oregon
1 (19) Jeff Otah OT Pittsburgh
3 (67) Charles Godfrey CB Iowa
3 (74) Dan Connor LB Penn State
5 (141) Gary Barnidge TE Louisville
6 (181) Nick Hayden DT Wisconsin
7 (221) Hilee Taylor DE North Carolina
7 (241) Geoff Schwartz OT Oregon
7 (250) Mackenzy Bernadeau G Bentley

Best Pick-LB Dan Connor
Worst Pick-OT Jeff Otah
Sleeper Pick-TE Gary Barnidge
“Huh?” Pick-OT Geoff Schwartz
Overall:B+

Chicago …
1 (14) Chris Williams OT Vanderbilt
2 (44) Matt Forte RB Tulane
3 (70) Earl Bennett WR Vanderbilt
4 (90) Marcus Harrison DT Arkansas
4 (120) Craig Steltz S Louisiana State
5 (142) Zach Bowman CB Nebraska
5 (158) Kellen Davis TE Michigan State
7 (208) Ervin Baldwin DE Michigan State
7 (222) Chester Adams G Georgia
7 (243) Joey LaRocque LB Oregon State
7 (247) Kirk Barton OT Ohio State
7 (248) Marcus Monk WR Arkansas

Best Pick-CB Zach Bowman
Worst Pick-DE Ervin Baldwin
Sleeper Pick-WR Marcus Monk
“Huh?” Pick-LB Joey Larocque
Overall: B

Cleveland
4 (104) Beau Bell LB Las Vegas Nevada
4 (111) Martin Rucker TE Missouri
6 (190) Athyba Rubin DT Iowa State
6 (191) Paul Hubbard WR Wisconsin
7 (231) Alex Hall DE Augstine

Best Pick-LB Beau Bell
Worst Pick-DE Alex Hall
Sleeper Pick-WR Paul Hubbard
“Huh?” Pick-TE Martin Rucker
Overall: A

Cincinnati
1 (9) Keith Rivers LB Southern California
2 (46) Jerome Simpson WR Coastal Carolina
3 (77) Pat Simms DT Auburn
3 (97) Andre Caldwell WR Florida
4 (112) Anthony Collins OT Kansas
5 (145) Jason Shirley DT Fresno
6 (177) Corey Lynch S Appalaichian State
6 (207) Matthew Sherry TE Villinova
7 (244) Angelo Craig DE Cincinnati
7 (246) Mario Urrutia WR Louisville

Best Pick-LB Keith Rivers
Worst Pick-DT Jason Shirley
Sleeper Pick-WR Mario Urrutia
“Huh?” Pick-WR Jerome Simpson
Overall: B

Dallas
1 (22) Felix Jones RB Arkansas
1 (25) Mike Jenkins CB South Florida
2 (61) Martellus Bennett TE Texas A&M
4 (122) Tashard Choice RB Georgia Tech
5 (143) Orlando Scandrick CB Boise State
6 (167) Erik Walden DE Mid Tennessee State

Best Pick-CB Mike Jenkins
Worst Pick-DE Erik Walden
Sleeper Pick-CB Orlando Scandrick
“Huh?” Pick-RB Tashard Choice
Overall: A-

Denver
1 (12) Ryan Clady OT Boise State
2 (42) Eddie Royal WR Virginia Tech
4 (108) Kory Lichtensteiger OG Bowling Green
4 (119) Jack Williams CB Kent State
5 (139) Ryan Torian RB Arizona State
5 (148) Carlton Powell DT Virginia Tech
6 (183) Spencer Larsen LB Arizona
7 (220) Josh Barrett S Arizona State
7 (227) Peyton Hillis FB Arkansas

Best Pick-S Josh Barrett
Worst Pick-WR Eddie Royal
Sleeper Pick-RB Ryan Torian
“Huh?” Pick-OT Ryan Clady
Overall: B

Detroit
1 (17) Gosder Cherilus OT Boston College
2 (45) Jordon Dizon OLB Colorado
3 (64) Kevin Smith RB Central Florida
3 (87) Andre Fluellen DT Florida State
3 (92) Cliff Avril DE/OLB Purdue
5 (136) Kenneth Moore WR Wake Forest
5 (146) Jerome Felton FB Furman
7 (216) Landon Cohen DT Ohio
7 (218) Caleb Campbell S Army

Best Pick-RB Kevin Smith
Worst Pick-WR Kenneth Moore
Sleeper Pick-DE Cliff Avril
“Huh?” Pick-OT Gosder Cherilus
Overall: C+

Green Bay
2 (36) Jordy Nelson WR Kansas State
2 (56) Brian Brohm QB Louisville
2 (60) Patrick Lee CB Auburn
3 (89) Steve Slaton RB West Virginia
3 (91) Jermichael Finley TE Texas
4 (102) Jeremey Thompson DE Wake Forrest
4 (135) Josh Sitton OT Central Florida
5 (150) Breno Giacomini OT Louisville
7 (209) Matt Flynn QB Louisiana State
7 (217) Brett Swain WR San Diego State

Best Pick-QB Brian Brohm
Worst Pick-TE Jermichael Finley
Sleeper Pick-WR Brett Swain
“Huh?” Pick-QB Matt Flynn
Overall:C+

Houston
1 (26) Duane Brown OT Virginia Tech
3 (79) Antwuan Molden CB Eastern Kentucky
4 (118) Xavier Adibi OLB Virginia Tech
5 (151) Frank Okam DT Texas
6 (173) Dominique Barber S Minnesota
7 (223) Alex Brink QB Washington State

Best Pick-LB Xavier Adibi
Worst Pick-OT Duane Brown
Sleeper Pick-CB Antwuan Molden
“Huh?” Pick-QB Alex Brink
Overall: C-

Indianapolis
2 (59) Mike Pollack C Arizona State
3 (93) Phillip Wheeler ILB Georgia Tech
4 (127) Jacob Tamme TE Kentucky
5 (161) Marcus Howard OLB Georgia
6 (196) Tom Santi TE Virginia
6 (201) Steve Justice C Wake Forest
6 (202) Mike Hart RB Michigan
6 (205) Pierre Garcon WR Mount Union
7 (236) Jamey Richard C Buffalo

Best Pick-LB Phillip Wheeler
Worst Pick-TE Tom Santi
Sleeper Pick-RB Mike Hart
“Huh?” Pick-OC Jamey Richard
Overall:A-

Jacksonville
1 (8) Derrick Harvey DE Florida
2 (52) Quentin Groves DE/OLB Auburn
5 (155) Thomas Williams ILB Southern California
5 (159) Trae Williams CB South Florida
7 (213) Chauncey Washington RB Southern California

Best Pick- DE Quentin Groves
Worst Pick-DE Derrick Harvey
Sleeper Pick-RB Chauncey Washington
“Huh?” Pick-LB Thomas Williams
Overall:C-

Kansas City Kansas
1 (5) Glenn Dorsey DT Louisiana State
1 (15) Brandon Albert OG/OT Virginia
2 (35) Brandon Flowers CB Virginia Tech
3 (73) Jammal Charles RB Texas
3 (76) Brad Cottom TE Tennessee
3 (82) DaJuan Morgan S North Carolina State
4 (105) Will Franklin WR Missouri
5 (140) Brandon Carr CB Grand Valley State
6 (170) Barry Richardson OT Clemson
6 (182) Kevin Robinson WR Utah State
7 (210) Brian Johnson DE Gardner Webb
7 (239) Mike Merritt TE Central Florida

Best Pick-DT Glenn Dorsey
Worst Pick-CB Brandon Flowers
Sleeper Pick-CB Brandon Carr
“Huh?” Pick-TE Mike Merritt
Overall:A+

Miami
1 (1) Jake Long OT Michigan
2 (32) Phillip Merling DE Clemson
2 (57) Chad Henne QB Michigan
3 (66) Kendall Langford DE Hampton
4 (110) Shawn Murphy OT Utah State
6 (167) Jalen Parmele RB Toledo
6 (195) Donald Thomas OG Conneticut
6 (205) Lex Hilliard RB Montana
7 (245) Lionel Dotson DT Arizona

Best Pick-DE Phillip Merling
Worst Pick-RB Jalen Parmele
Sleeper-RB Lex Hilliard
“Huh?” Pick-DT Lionel Dotson
Overall: A

Minnesota
2 (43) Tyrell Johnson S Arkansas State
5 (137) John David Booty QB Southern California
5 (152) Letroy Guion DT Florida State
6 (187) John Sullivan C Notre Dame
6 (193) Jaymar Johnson WR Jackson State

Best Pick-S Tyrell Johnson
Worst Pick-QB John David Booty
Sleeper Pick-DT Letroy Guion
“Huh?” Pick-WR Jaymar Johnson
Overall: B

New England
1 (10) Jerod Mayo LB Tennessee
2 (62) Terrence Wheatley CB Colorado
3 (78) Shawn Crable OLB Michigan
3 (94) Kevin O'Connell QB San Diego State
4 (129) Jonathan Wilhite CB Auburn
5 (153) Matthew Slater WR UCLA
6 (197) Bo Ruud OLB Nebraska

Best Pick-LB Jerod Mayo
Worst Pick-WR Matthew Slater
Sleeper Pick-LB Bo Ruud
“Huh?” Pick-CB Terrence Wheatley
Overall: C-

New Orleans
1 (7) Sedrick Ellis DT Souther California
2 (40) Tracey Porter CB Indiana
5 (140) DeMario Pressley DT North Carolina State
6 (178) Taylor Mehlhaff K Wisconsin
7 (237) Adrian Arrington WR Michigan

Best Pick-DT Sedrick Ellis
Worst Pick-CB Tracey Porter
Sleeper Pick-DT DeMario Pressley
“Huh?” Pick-WR Adrian Arrington
Overall: C

NY Giants
1 (31) Kenny Phillips S Miami
2 (63) Terrell Thomas CB Southern California
3 (95) Mario Manningham WR Michigan
4 (123) Bryan Kehl OLB Brigham Young
5 (165) Jonathan Goff LB Vanderbilt
6 (199) Andre Woodson QB Kentucky
6 (200) Robert Henderson DE Southern Mississippi

Best Pick-QB Andre Woodson
Worst Pick-LB Bryan Kehl
Sleeper Pick-LB Jonathan Goff
“Huh?” Pick-DE Robert Henderson
Overall:B-

NY Jets
1 (6) Vernon Gholston DE/OLB Ohio State
1 (30) Dustin Keller TE Purdue
4 (113) Dwight Lowery CB San Jose State
5 (162) Erik Ainge QB Tennessee
6 (172) Marcus Henry WR Kansas
7 (211) Nate Garner OT Arkansas

Best Pick-TE Dustin Keller
Worst Pick-CB Dwight Lowery
Sleeper Pick-WR Marcus Henry
“Huh?” Pick-QB Erik Ainge
Overall: C+

Oakland
1 (4) Darren McFadden RB Arkansas
4 (100) Tyvon Branch CB Connecticut
4 (125) Arman Shields WR Richmond
6 (169) Trevor Scott DE Buffalo
7 (226) Chaz Schilens WR San Diego State

Best Pick-RB Darreb McFadden
Worst Pick-CB Tyvon Branch
Sleeper Pick-WR Arman Shields
“Huh?” Pick-WR Chaz Schilens
Overall:B-

Philadelphia
2 (47) Trevor Laws DT Notre Dame
2 (49) DeSean Jackson WR California
3 (80) Bryan Smith DE McNeese State
4 (109) Mike McGlynn OG/OT Pittsburgh
4 (117) Quintin Demps S Texas El Paso
4(131) Jack Ikegwuonu CB Wisconsin
6 (184) Mike Gibson OG California
6 (200) Joe Mays ILB North Dakota State
6 (203) Andrew Studebaker DE Wheaton
7 (230) King Dunlap OT Auburn

Best Pick-OL Mike McGlynn
Worst Pick-WR DeSean Jackson
Sleeper Pick-DE Andy Studebaker
“Huh?” Pick-CB Jack Ikegwuonu
Overall: C+

Pittsburgh
1 (23) Rashard Mendenhal RB Illinois
2 (53) Limas Sweed WR Texas
3 (88) Bruce Davis DE UCLA
4 (130) Tony Hills OT Texas
5 (156) Dennis Dixon QB Oregon
6 (188) Mike Humpal ILB Iowa
6 (194) Ryan Mundy S West Virginia

Best Pick-WR Limas Sweed
Worst Pick-LB Mike Humpal
Sleeper Pick-QB Dennis Dixon
“Huh?” Pick-S Ryan Mundy
Overall: A

San Diego
1 (27) Antoine Cason CB Arizona
3 (69) Jacob Hester FB Louisiana State
5 (166) Marcus Thomas RB Texas El Paso
6 (192) DeJuan Tribble CB Boston College
7 (234) Corey Clark OT Texas A&M

Best Pick-CB Antoine Cason
Worst Pick-CB DeJuan Tribble
Sleeper Pick-OT Corey Clark
“Huh?” Pick-FB Jacob Hester
Overall: C

San Francisco
1 (29) Kentwan Balmer DT North Carolina
2 (39) Chilo Rachal OG Southern California
3 (75) Reggie Smith S/CB Oklahoma
4 (107) Cody Wallace C Texas A&M
6 (174) Josh Morgan WR Virginia Tech
7 (214) Larry Grant OLB Ohio State

Best Pick-CB Reggie Smith
Worst Pick-DT Kentwan Balmer
Sleeper Pick-WR Josh Morgan
“Huh?” Pick-LB Larry Grant
Overall:C

Seattle
1 (28) Lawrence Jackson DE Southern California
2 (38) John Carlson TE Notre Dame
4 (121) Red Bryant DT Texas A&M
5 (163) Owen Schmitt FB West Virginia
6 (189) Tyler Schmitt LS San Diego State
7 (233) Justin Forsett RB California
7 (235) Brandon Coutu K Georgia

Best Pick-DE Lawrence Jackson
Worst Pick-LS Tyler Schmitt
Sleeper Pick-RB Justin Forsett
“Huh?” Pick-TE Jon Carlson
Overall: B-

St. Louis
1 (2) Chris Long DE Virginia
2 (33) Donnie Avery WR Houston
3 (65) John Greco OT Toledo
4 (101) Justin King CB Penn State
4 (128) Kennan Burton WR Kentucky
5 (157) Roy Schuening OG Oregon State
7 (228) Christopher Chamberlin ILB Tulsa
7 (252) David Vobora LB Idaho

Best Pick-DE Chris Long
Worst Pick-WR Keenan Burton
Sleeper Pick-OG Roy Schuening
“Huh?” Pick-WR Donnie Avery
Overall: C+

Tampa Bay
1 (20) Aqib Talib CB Kansas
2 (58) Dexter Jackson WR Appalachain State
3 (83) Jeremy Zuttah OG Rutgers
4 (115) Dre Moore DT Maryland
5 (160) Josh Johnson CB San Diego
6 (175) Geno Hayes LB Florida State
7 (238) Cory Boyd RB South Carolina

Best Pick-QB Josh Johnson
Worst Pick-OG Jeremy Zuttah
Sleeper Pick-RB Cory Boyd
“Huh?” Pick-CB Aqib Talib
Overall: B

Tennessee
1 (24) Chris Johnson RB East Carolina
2 (54) Jason Jones DE/DT Eastern Michigan
3 (85) Craig Stevens TE California
4 (103) William Hayes DE/OLB Winston Salem State
4 (126) Lavell Hawkins WR California
4 (134) Stanford Keglar OLB Purdue
7 (229) Cary Williams CB Washburn

Best Pick-DE Jason Jones
Worst Pick-DE William Hayes
Sleeper Pick-CB Cary Williams
“Huh?” Pick-RB Chris Johnson
Overall: D

Washington
2 (34) Devin Thomas WR Michigan State
2 (48) Fred Davis TE Southern California
2 (51) Malcolm Kelly WR Oklahoma
3 (96) Chad Rinehart OG Northern Iowa
4 (124) Justin Tryon CB Arizona State
6 (168) Durant Brooks P Georgia Tech
6 (180) Kareem Moore S Nicholls State
6 (186) Colt Brennan QB Hawaii
7 (242) Rob Jackson DE Kansas State
7 (249) Chris Horton S UCLA

Best Pick-WR Malcolm Kelly
Worst Pick-TE Fred Davis
Sleeper Pick-S Chris Horton
“Huh?” Pick-S Kareem Moore
Overall: A+

[Don't Panic]

A+ for KC. You know it, baby! Albert and Dorsey is an absolute coup. I think the C for Buffalo is a little bit harsh, though. Maybe B-...

Very nice work, DB.

[madness]

At least our "Huh?" pick was a 7th rounder.

[RockStar36]

I think Pittsburgh's "huh" pick is Mendenhall.

[Mahdi]

DB these are your grades?? WTH?


A C for the Bills is very inaccurate even if we dont know how these players will fare. The Bills got the top CB in the draft and were patient enough to wait for arguably the best WR in the draft at 41, addressing their top 2 needs according to most ppl with their first 2 picks and getting great value on top of that. They follow that up with a solid edge rusher that can really thrive in their scheme. Reggie Corner was a surprise pick sure, but if they had him graded ahead of anyone else on their board and their scouting work tells them he can be a solid CB for them down the road then why not??


I just dont understand how you can give a grade of C. In your last mock you had the Bills taking DRC at #11 and Malcolm Kelly at #41. They end up with the better CB and overall the most productive WR to come out this year who also posesses the size they need.

The least is a B+

[DraftBoy]

DB these are your grades?? WTH?


A C for the Bills is very inaccurate even if we dont know how these players will fare. The Bills got the top CB in the draft and were patient enough to wait for arguably the best WR in the draft at 41, addressing their top 2 needs according to most ppl with their first 2 picks and getting great value on top of that. They follow that up with a solid edge rusher that can really thrive in their scheme. Reggie Corner was a surprise pick sure, but if they had him graded ahead of anyone else on their board and their scouting work tells them he can be a solid CB for them down the road then why not??


I just dont understand how you can give a grade of C. In your last mock you had the Bills taking DRC at #11 and Malcolm Kelly at #41. They end up with the better CB and overall the most productive WR to come out this year who also posesses the size they need.

The least is a B+

I disagree and Ive already gone into great length as to why;

http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?t=151611

I dont judge a draft based on the top 3 picks, that doesnt impress me...sorry.

[justasportsfan]

So the bills were one of the losers in this draft :scratch:

[DraftBoy]

So the bills were one of the losers in this draft :scratch:

Yep, pretty brutal Day 2 where the good GMs seperate themselves will do that to you. If our Day 2 doesnt pan out in the pivotal draft year we are in big trouble.

[FlyingDutchman]

In any draft you can hope to get two legit starters. We got that, with the two top people on our board. This draft was definately a success. Definately at least a B. Judging anything after round 3 is rediculous and pointless bc its a crap shoot and you cannot usually accurately judge those players until several years removed.

[justasportsfan]

Yep, pretty brutal Day 2 where the good GMs seperate themselves will do that to you. If our Day 2 doesnt pan out in the pivotal draft year we are in big trouble.


you know this will be revisited in the future.

[DraftBoy]

In any draft you can hope to get two legit starters. We got that, with the two top people on our board. This draft was definately a success. Definately at least a B. Judging anything after round 3 is rediculous and pointless bc its a crap shoot and you cannot usually accurately judge those players until several years removed.


There is no way you can sit here and tell me that Hardy or even McKelvin are sure fire starters at this point. The positions we know would of gotten starters at OC, and TE we didnt address.

[justasportsfan]

In any draft you can hope to get two legit starters. We got that, with the two top people on our board. This draft was definately a success. Definately at least a B. Judging anything after round 3 is rediculous and pointless bc its a crap shoot and you cannot usually accurately judge those players until several years removed.


I have the bills at B.

As for the late rd. picks, if they just make our ST no. 1 again, My grade may move up to A.

[justasportsfan]

There is no way you can sit here and tell me that Hardy or even McKelvin are sure fire starters at this point. .
the same goes for every player drafted.

[FlyingDutchman]

There is no way you can sit here and tell me that Hardy or even McKelvin are sure fire starters at this point. The positions we know would of gotten starters at OC, and TE we didnt address.

Um, I think I just did. How are you going to tell me they're not, but you know OC and TE are? LMAO. This is just like last years draft in which was considered a success. Two solid picks, and a 3rd rounder that may contribute. Everything there after only time will tell.

[DraftBoy]

you know this will be revisited in the future.

Yea it will, but I dont fear that at all. Kiper gave us a C+ while McShay gave us the #1 grade out of the AFCE, neither guy really talked about Day 2.

[DraftBoy]

Um, I think I just did. How are you going to tell me they're not, but you know OC and TE are? LMAO. This is just like last years draft in which was considered a success. Two solid picks, and a 3rd rounder that may contribute. Everything there after only time will tell.

I mean we have two starters at CB, Greer and McGee and Hardy is still a raw WR coming out. Expecting him to come in and be a starter is asking for a lot.

[Don't Panic]

I think Pittsburgh's "huh" pick is Mendenhall.

huh?

[FlyingDutchman]

I mean we have two starters at CB, Greer and McGee and Hardy is still a raw WR coming out. Expecting him to come in and be a starter is asking for a lot.

agreed. but how can you not say that about anyone ever drafted? At least those two are expected to make an impact sooner rather than later. Especially Hardy. I dont think we will be exactly making a game plan for him, but i expect him to get thrown to the wolves pretty fast. What other options do we have?

[justasportsfan]

Yea it will, but I dont fear that at all. Kiper gave us a C+ while McShay gave us the #1 grade out of the AFCE, neither guy really talked about Day 2.


Pfft Wys gave us a C+ . A grade more positive than yours :huh:

[DraftBoy]

agreed. but how can you not say that about anyone ever drafted? At least those two are expected to make an impact sooner rather than later. Especially Hardy. I dont think we will be exactly making a game plan for him, but i expect him to get thrown to the wolves pretty fast. What other options do we have?

I think he'll start out as the slot guy, and see some time at #2 probably in redzone situations. Reed is too good of a blocker right now to move to #3 for a rookie who still needs to develop.

[justasportsfan]

I mean we have two starters at CB, Greer and McGee and Hardy is still a raw WR coming out. Expecting him to come in and be a starter is asking for a lot.
Greer and McGee aren't exactly probowlers. A bunch of inconsistent cb's which is why we drafted a cb to begin with. You're also forgettting the cover 2 isn't a compicated scheme.

[DraftBoy]

Pfft Wys gave us a C+ . A grade more positive than yours :huh:

When/If I start trusting Wys's judgment on anything shoot me.

[DraftBoy]

Greer and McGee aren't exactly probowlers. A bunch of inconsistent cb's which is why we drafted a cb to begin with. You're also forgettting the cover 2 isn't a compicated scheme.

3 actually...and you are forgetting that one of the flaws in McKelvin's game is that he needs to work on Zone Coverage schemes. He mainly played in a man up scheme at Troy.

[justasportsfan]

When/If I start trusting Wys's judgment on anything shoot me.


Done. Forhead, temple or back of the head?

[justasportsfan]

3 actually...and you are forgetting that one of the flaws in McKelvin's game is that he needs to work on Zone Coverage schemes. He mainly played in a man up scheme at Troy.

He still shouldn't have a problem based on the competition ahead of him.

[DraftBoy]

Done. Forhead, temple or back of the head?

Where did I trust Wys?

[DraftBoy]

He still shouldn't have a problem based on the competition ahead of him.

Its not all based on his competition he still needs to learn the intricacies of the scheme and adjust to the speed, and if he's going to be a returner too then he needs to learn all of that as well. Its not as easy as you are making it out to be.

[justasportsfan]

Where did I trust Wys?

I just agreed to shoot you if you agreed. Didn't say you did.

BTw. I'm using a Paintball. Hurts more than a real gun.

[Don't Panic]

I think you have to grade our individual picks with a value similar to what the draft pick value chart assigns to them. So...

#11 - 1250
#41 - 490
#72 - 240
#114 - 66
#132 - 40
#147 - 32.6
#179 - 20.8
#219 - 4.8
#224 - 3
#251 - .65

Look at it that way (or even close to that way) and it becomes weighted so that the success we had with our 1st and 2nd completely overshadow any "misses" we might have had with some of our second day picks.

[BuffaloBillsStampede]

I only read a few teams that you put on there and I had to stop. How is Erik Ainge a bad pick for the Jets? I think he was a 5th rounder if I remember correctly, and I will take that in the 5th round every year with a team like the Jets who still need a QB in my opinion.

I put a lot into what Gil Brandt says about players and he likes the LB Kehl the Giants drafted a lot so I had to dismiss that as the Giants worst pick, and I think the Giants had a real good draft.

While Reggie Corner was not a need pick I haven't heard a bad word about the kid since we drafted him. Corner is a position that you can never have too many good ones at.

[DraftBoy]

I just agreed to shoot you if you agreed. Didn't say you did.

BTw. I'm using a Paintball. Hurts more than a real gun.

Good point, Ill take Temple

[justasportsfan]

Good point, Ill take Temple
eyeball it is :up:

BTW, Wys thinks our 2nd day sucked. Agree or disagree?

:tap:

[DraftBoy]

I only read a few teams that you put on there and I had to stop. How is Erik Ainge a bad pick for the Jets? I think he was a 5th rounder if I remember correctly, and I will take that in the 5th round every year with a team like the Jets who still need a QB in my opinion.

I put a lot into what Gil Brandt says about players and he likes the LB Kehl the Giants drafted a lot so I had to dismiss that as the Giants worst pick, and I think the Giants had a real good draft.

While Reggie Corner was not a need pick I haven't heard a bad word about the kid since we drafted him. Corner is a position that you can never have too many good ones at.

Because Erik Ainge is the same type of QB they have. Has bad decision making and an ok arm. He is not going to wow anybody with his play. Hello Mediocrity! The Jets needed a QB like we needed a TE going into this draft and like us coming out of it, they still need a QB.

Im glad Gil Brandt likes the pick. I dont think it was a bad pick but out of the ones they had I liked that one the least. I have to pick something.

Reggie Corner is 5'9, there is your first bad word on him.

[DraftBoy]

eyeball it is :up:

BTW, Wys thinks our 2nd day sucked. Agree or disagree?

:tap:

Quote?

[justasportsfan]

Quote?
http://afceastreport.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=300

[PECKERWOOD]

Dude, the Chargers should get an F for taking Hester that high.

[DraftBoy]

http://afceastreport.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=300

I dont have time for the anthology, quote the part I should agree with Ill let you know, and you can shoot me or not.

[DraftBoy]

Dude, the Chargers should get an F for taking Hester that high.

Why? They have a need at both FB and HB with the loss of Turner and the age of Neal. Hester is similar to Brian Leonard from last year who went earlier.

[justasportsfan]

I dont have time for the anthology, quote the part I should agree with Ill let you know, and you can shoot me or not.
he thinks our 2nd day sucks. gave it an F .

his final gade C+ not far from C

Right or left eyeball?

[PECKERWOOD]

Why? They have a need at both FB and HB with the loss of Turner and the age of Neal. Hester is similar to Brian Leonard from last year who went earlier.

1.) Leonard was more of a force than Hester was.
2.) St. Loius is kicking themselves for taking Leonard so high.
3.) Hester wasn't even the best FB in the draft, I'll give those honors to Schmitt.

[DraftBoy]

he thinks our 2nd day sucks. gave it an F .

his final gade C+ not far from C

Right or left eyeball?

Thats not an agreement

[DraftBoy]

1.) Leonard was more of a force than Hester was.
2.) St. Loius is kicking themselves for taking Leonard so high.
3.) Hester wasn't even the best FB in the draft, I'll give those honors to Schmitt.

1. No he wasn't
2. Yea but they are kicking themselves for a lot more than that too
3. Yes he was

[PECKERWOOD]

1. No he wasn't
2. Yea but they are kicking themselves for a lot more than that too
3. Yes he was

:lmao:

Mkay.

[Saratoga Slim]

There is no way you can sit here and tell me that Hardy or even McKelvin are sure fire starters at this point. The positions we know would of gotten starters at OC, and TE we didnt address.

Sorry DB, I really appreciate the great work you do in getting us all up to speed on the draft, as well as your grades today. But this statement doesn't make any sense to me.

We probably could have gotten a starter at TE in the 2nd or 3rd round, but that would have meant NOT drafting either Hardy or Ellis. Frankly I think Hardy was a better pick for us than ANY of the TEs in the draft--and clearly OBD thought the same.

And I don't know too much about Eilis, but clearly the FO made a judgment call that the benefit that he'd bring to the team in bolstering our pass rush is greater than the value of any TE remaining on the board at that point. Look at all the TEs that had already been drafted by the time we picked in the 3rd round: Keller, Davis, Carlson, and Bennett. There were no sure fire TE prospects left at that point (if there were even really any in this draft). Everyone left had some question marks. I don't think it's fair to say NOW that any of the remaining TEs was going to bring more value to the team than Chris Ellis. I'm OK with the FO's judgment on that one.

As for Center - I'm not even sure the FO thinks there's a big problem at Center. I've never heard a peep from OBD about Center being a need--correct me if I'm wrong. I get the feeling that it's more of a need perceived by us here at BZ.

Bottom line, I think you're being a little too hard on the front office. I give us a B or maybe a B+. My reasoning: we did as good a job as was possible in addressing WR and CB--our two positions in need of the greatest upgrade. We bolstered our pass rush with a guy who has a lot to offer in that regard. We made some BPA picks in the 4th round that I think everyone is rightfully questioning, and then followed it up with solid BPA picks in the 5, 6, and 7th.

[kernowboy]

I do agree with Draft Boy on this.

As a team we have good starters but then marginal depth.

A good draft should be measured, not on Day1, when we really should pick up a couple of starters, but on Day2 where we discover those surprising players who will eventually start, the types of players like Howard Ballard.

From the 2006 draft, on Day2 we selected

a starting FS in Ko Simpson
a NT who has been able to start in Kyle Williams and now decent depth
our starting RG in Brad Butler and maybe future RT
an ok WLB in Keith Ellison who can come in and do an ok job behind a decent DL
and in R7 two guys who did start games and IMO we should have retained in Terrance Pennington and Aaron Merz.

In this draft I see no-one from Day2 ever getting near the starting line up.

In R4 we could have gotten Dre Moore at 114 who in a couple of years may well be starting and could have supplanted Stroud or McCargo.
In R4 supp, we could have had our starting FB in Owen Schmitt, who is head and shoulders above any player on the roster at this position.
In R6 a guy like John Sullivan, who would be excellent depth behind Fowler and his long term replacement. We will now need to look to spend money on a FA or a draft pick if Fowler is not re-signed or if he chooses not to re-sign.

We have done nothing really to upgrade FB or TE, two need positions.

We missed a chance to upgrade the athleticism behind our inury prone starting DTs.

Whilst we have gotten good STeamers, if we have the injury plagued season again like we had last season, we have done nothing to upgrade the depth.

[kernowboy]

Consider this alternative

R4a. Dre Moore - a R2 calibre player who has inexplicably fallen. Could easily take over from Stroud or McCargo when their contracts come up.
R4b. Owen Schmidt - our starting FB, head and shoulders above Barnes or Evans
R5. Kellen Davis - many teams had concerns about him being soft and underachieving but he did play on a badly coached Spartans team. He clearly has the physical ability to be a starter at TE and proper coaching maybe is all that is required.
R6. John Sullivan - rated initially a R2 prospect before his senior season who could learn behind Fowler before taking over from him at center
R7. Kirk Barton - a leader and captain at Ohio St, who could move inside and eventually might be a decent mauling RG.

With 5 throw a way Day2 picks you have 5 players who contribute effective depth and potential starting ability in 2-3 seasons time.

That is what grades a draft as a B+ or an A

[Mahdi]

There is no way you can sit here and tell me that Hardy or even McKelvin are sure fire starters at this point. The positions we know would of gotten starters at OC, and TE we didnt address.
yeah yer right Parrish and Reed have the #2 spot locked up fer sure. And Greer was certainly a beast last year too....

Gimme a break... Mckelvin and Hardy are "sure fire" starters and will be from day 1. Im willing to even go as far as to say that Ellis will unseat Kelsay at some point in the season, and Alvin Bowen will replace Ellison at the back-up WLB spot.

[Mahdi]

3 actually...and you are forgetting that one of the flaws in McKelvin's game is that he needs to work on Zone Coverage schemes. He mainly played in a man up scheme at Troy.
I have never seen anywhere that Mckelvin has issues with zone coverage schemes... Just because the guy played man to man mainly at Troy that doesnt mean that he will automatically struggle with a cover 2 zone. In fact cover 2 is easier to grasp then most defensive schemes anyways. If you can play man to man consistently then moving to cover 2 is actually easier. Its adjusting from a zone to a man scheme that is difficult.

[HHURRICANE]

I'm happy with Hardy.

Th rest of the draft blew.

The Bills deserve a C. I don't see any real impact here.

[Dozerdog]

There is no way you can sit here and tell me that Hardy or even McKelvin are sure fire starters at this point. The positions we know would of gotten starters at OC, and TE we didnt address.

OC- looking at the recent history of the draft (past 10-15 years) , hardly any pure centers go before round 3, and the few who do are a collossal waste of a high pick. Many good centers in the league are converted from other positions. Melvin Fowler or a 3rd or 4th round draft pick starting? That would be a big step back for our improving OL.


TEs- the Hard on for TEs on the zone year after year continues. Every year maybe one gem emerges into a huge offensive threat like a Gonzales or a Gates. Even then you need a very good system and a good QB to properly exploit them. We need a TE to help run block or to provide Max protection to buy JP/Trent an extra 2 seconds to allow Evans or Parrish to toast a defender deep downfield. There are many cookie cutter schmoes out there that can do it and they are available in most drafts in later rounds


While we are at it- why do people go crazy insisting we have to draft Fullbacks?
Another position where no more than 4-5 pure FBs get drafted every year- hardly any before round 4. Mike Alstotts are a very rare exception, and even then his year to year production didn't warrent him as a top 40 pick IMHO.

[Michael82]

Wow! How could you give the Redskins an A+? :scratch:

[Mahdi]

I mean we have two starters at CB, Greer and McGee and Hardy is still a raw WR coming out. Expecting him to come in and be a starter is asking for a lot.
How exactly is he raw? He started 3 years at Indiana... has 36 TDs in 32 games... He's certainly not raw... He's a big physical WR with great leaping and redzone ability. Is he going to run his routes like Torry Holt ,,, no,,, but neither does Plaxico Burress. But Holt isnt the redzone threat that Plax is either. Hardy is what he is but that doesnt make him a "raw" prospect.

[Mahdi]

1. No he wasn't
2. Yea but they are kicking themselves for a lot more than that too
3. Yes he was
Theres no way Hester is the best FB in the draft,, not even close. Hester will not be lead blocking for Tomlinson at all. They brought in Hester as a RB to pick up the tough yards and give Tomlinson a rest from the beating.

To be the best FB in the draft you have to be able to lead block, otherwise yer just a powerful RB which is what Hester is.

[DraftBoy]

Sorry DB, I really appreciate the great work you do in getting us all up to speed on the draft, as well as your grades today. But this statement doesn't make any sense to me.

We probably could have gotten a starter at TE in the 2nd or 3rd round, but that would have meant NOT drafting either Hardy or Ellis. Frankly I think Hardy was a better pick for us than ANY of the TEs in the draft--and clearly OBD thought the same.

And I don't know too much about Hall, but clearly the FO made a judgment call that the benefit that he'd bring to the team in bolstering our pass rush is greater than the value than that of any TE remaining on the board at that point. Look at all the TEs that had already been drafted by the time we picked in the 3rd round: Keller, Davis, Carlson, and Bennett. There were no sure fire TE prospects left at that point (if there were even really any in this draft). Everyone left had some question marks. I don't think it's fair to say NOW that any of the remaining TEs was going to bring more value to the team than Chris Ellis. I'm OK with the FO's judgment on that one.

As for Center - I'm not even sure the FO thinks there's a big problem at Center. I've never heard a peep from OBD about Center being a need--correct me if I'm wrong. I get the feeling that it's more of a need perceived by us here at BZ.

Bottom line, I think you're being a little too hard on the front office. I give us a B or maybe a B+. My reasoning: we did as good a job as was possible in addressing WR and CB--our two positions in need of the greatest upgrade. We bolstered our pass rush with a guy who has a lot to offer in that regard. We made some BPA picks in the 4th round that I think everyone is rightfully questioning, and then followed it up with solid BPA picks in the 5, 6, and 7th.


Ill start from the beginning though really this whole discussion should be in the other thread from the other day because its Bills related but none the less, Ill respond to each comment.

First off thank you for the compliment and appreciation of my work but I appreciate the fact that you guys read it and like it more.

I have no problem with no drafting Ellis and taking a TE. I dont think Ellis solves the problems we have at DE which Ive gone into great detail about before. We do not need pure pass rusher we need an all around DE. Ellis is a great athlete and he used that to his advantage in the ACC but he really doesnt posess the pass rush moves you like from a DE coming out of school because his athleticism is not that of a Julius Peppers and most NFL OT's are going to be able to neutralize him in that regard. That's not to say he can't develop those moves but if it comes down to choosing between a rotation DE/pass rush specialist and a starting TE. Im going with the starting TE. I even like the Ellis pick as a whole but we could of done better imo. I also completely disagree with you Martin Rucker is a sure fire TE, in fact I ranked him as my #1 overall TE. He is the athletic, big, pass catching TE we needed. Id take him over Ellis and take a DE in Round 4 over Fine, maybe Ellis falls to there. We can't say for sure obviously but I think passing on Rucker for Ellis was a small mistake.

If OBD doesnt see the issue at OC that everyday fans see then Im going to have to question their talent evaluation skills. You wont find one person that will tell you that Fowler is a good starting OC. If they didnt think guys like Justice, or Pollack could be good NFL OC's thats differently, though I disagree with them.

We did not once after Round 2 go BPA in my opinion and thats how I grade the draft. I understand the line of thinking that well they took this guy so he was obviously their top guy on the board, but A) Im not sure of that, and B) I dont grade based on their board, I grade based on my board. Just like Kiper, McShay, and Mayock do. I dont think Im being too hard on the Bills, I think Im being realistic as to who we left on the board and who we took. We took some definite reach picks and it was one of the most disappointing 2nd day drafts for us in a while.

[DraftBoy]

yeah yer right Parrish and Reed have the #2 spot locked up fer sure. And Greer was certainly a beast last year too....

Gimme a break... Mckelvin and Hardy are "sure fire" starters and will be from day 1. Im willing to even go as far as to say that Ellis will unseat Kelsay at some point in the season, and Alvin Bowen will replace Ellison at the back-up WLB spot.

No they are not, Reed is a valuable blocker to our running game and Hardy really doesnt block at all, if you dont think that matters then I think your being blind about that.

As for McKelvin I think he will start but he's going to have to earn it. More on that in a second as I respond to another one of your replys.

Ellis may replace Kelsay but he's the exact same player so I dont see the improvement there. An athletic high motor pass rushing DE. When are we going to commit to stopping the run with our Front 4??

[DraftBoy]

I have never seen anywhere that Mckelvin has issues with zone coverage schemes... Just because the guy played man to man mainly at Troy that doesnt mean that he will automatically struggle with a cover 2 zone. In fact cover 2 is easier to grasp then most defensive schemes anyways. If you can play man to man consistently then moving to cover 2 is actually easier. Its adjusting from a zone to a man scheme that is difficult.

Ok I think this is where people are getting confused. Scheme wise you are right Cover 2 is easier to learn than Man coverage, but its not necessairly easier to function in. If you ever played football (and Im not assuming either way) you know that playing the pickup sand lot games that you play a straight man to man, well if you ever played in Pee-Wee or HS you know that in the zone you are not responsible for any one man but for your zone and at least I got beat quite a few times by following an individual man instead of playing my zone. Its not as easy a transition and you guys are making it out to be. There will be some adjustment periods if you dont think there will be then I think your being short sighted on this. Its not as simple as flipping a light switch this will take work and a concentrated effort to learn. Its not that easy.

[DraftBoy]

OC- looking at the recent history of the draft (past 10-15 years) , hardly any pure centers go before round 3, and the few who do are a collossal waste of a high pick. Many good centers in the league are converted from other positions. Melvin Fowler or a 3rd or 4th round draft pick starting? That would be a big step back for our improving OL.


TEs- the Hard on for TEs on the zone year after year continues. Every year maybe one gem emerges into a huge offensive threat like a Gonzales or a Gates. Even then you need a very good system and a good QB to properly exploit them. We need a TE to help run block or to provide Max protection to buy JP/Trent an extra 2 seconds to allow Evans or Parrish to toast a defender deep downfield. There are many cookie cutter schmoes out there that can do it and they are available in most drafts in later rounds


While we are at it- why do people go crazy insisting we have to draft Fullbacks?
Another position where no more than 4-5 pure FBs get drafted every year- hardly any before round 4. Mike Alstotts are a very rare exception, and even then his year to year production didn't warrent him as a top 40 pick IMHO.

We are going to have to agree to disagree on the OC. But by just looking at some of the OC's in the NFC many were originally UDFA's so saying inserting a 3rd or 4th round pick would be a step back is not something Im prepared to agree with.

Ok if you want a blocking a TE then take one, you dont take Fine though who is not a good blocker. I want an athletic TE for our scheme, or I want a pure blocking TE, I sure as hell dont want some mediocre player who does neither extremely well. Yes thats a harsh criticism and I know Ill get called out on it simply because Buffalo took him, but the fact is that if Miami took him and I said the same things about him 99% of you would agree with me.

I dont like the drafting FB's idea either.

[DraftBoy]

Wow! How could you give the Redskins an A+? :scratch:

Umm...if you get the top two rated WR's, one of the top TE's, a good OG, a good CB, the best P, and a sleeper S...I dont know how you dont get a good grade...

[DraftBoy]

How exactly is he raw? He started 3 years at Indiana... has 36 TDs in 32 games... He's certainly not raw... He's a big physical WR with great leaping and redzone ability. Is he going to run his routes like Torry Holt ,,, no,,, but neither does Plaxico Burress. But Holt isnt the redzone threat that Plax is either. Hardy is what he is but that doesnt make him a "raw" prospect.

He wasnt a full time starter his sophmore year at Indiana so lets stop saying he started three years.

His routes are raw, Ive gone into this before, I dont care if he can jump out of RWS, if you are going to work the middle of the field your routes have to be good. This is the NFL not the Big Ten. He runs a very sloppy slant pattern which will get the ball picked off in the NFL and he needs to be more precise in his cuts and breaks in order to help gain separation. Plaxico Burress is a very good route runner he's become one since he left PIT. He knows how important it is. He's not a perfectionist like Torry Holt but he's no slouch at it either. I didnt know asking a guy to run good routes was a huge ask.

[DraftBoy]

Theres no way Hester is the best FB in the draft,, not even close. Hester will not be lead blocking for Tomlinson at all. They brought in Hester as a RB to pick up the tough yards and give Tomlinson a rest from the beating.

To be the best FB in the draft you have to be able to lead block, otherwise yer just a powerful RB which is what Hester is.

I expect them to use him both ways honestly. I think he'll do some lead blocking for LT, but for the most part they will need him to bulk up some. Maybe SD doesnt want him as a FB. He was my top FB, because of his ability to carry the ball, catch the ball, block and add bulk.

[Mahdi]

No they are not, Reed is a valuable blocker to our running game and Hardy really doesnt block at all, if you dont think that matters then I think your being blind about that.

As for McKelvin I think he will start but he's going to have to earn it. More on that in a second as I respond to another one of your replys.

Ellis may replace Kelsay but he's the exact same player so I dont see the improvement there. An athletic high motor pass rushing DE. When are we going to commit to stopping the run with our Front 4??
The Bills made it a point to emphasize several times that they chose Ellis because he is solid against the run... Just because he is a good pass rusher that doesnt mean he isnt a good run defender.

[Mahdi]

Ok I think this is where people are getting confused. Scheme wise you are right Cover 2 is easier to learn than Man coverage, but its not necessairly easier to function in. If you ever played football (and Im not assuming either way) you know that playing the pickup sand lot games that you play a straight man to man, well if you ever played in Pee-Wee or HS you know that in the zone you are not responsible for any one man but for your zone and at least I got beat quite a few times by following an individual man instead of playing my zone. Its not as easy a transition and you guys are making it out to be. There will be some adjustment periods if you dont think there will be then I think your being short sighted on this. Its not as simple as flipping a light switch this will take work and a concentrated effort to learn. Its not that easy.
Clements and McGee did fine in their first transition year to the cover 2... zone defense requires you to sit in your zone its not that hard to get a hang of... training camp should be enough to get him acclimated.

[madness]

The guy calling Hardy raw wanted DRC (the rawest of the raw). Oh the irony.

[Mahdi]

He wasnt a full time starter his sophmore year at Indiana so lets stop saying he started three years.

His routes are raw, Ive gone into this before, I dont care if he can jump out of RWS, if you are going to work the middle of the field your routes have to be good. This is the NFL not the Big Ten. He runs a very sloppy slant pattern which will get the ball picked off in the NFL and he needs to be more precise in his cuts and breaks in order to help gain separation. Plaxico Burress is a very good route runner he's become one since he left PIT. He knows how important it is. He's not a perfectionist like Torry Holt but he's no slouch at it either. I didnt know asking a guy to run good routes was a huge ask.
Its usually more difficult for the big, tall guys to run their routes as accurately as the shorter, shiftier players. That being said Hardy probably isnt a great route runner but again its not something that should take him very long with good coaching. The other thing is that receivers with his size have something that lessens the requirement for great route running which is catching radius. Hardy may not run the route with perfect precision but the QB doenst have to throw it with perfect precision either as you would with Holt, Evans Harrison etc. You can throw high and outside and it will still be within reach, as well as high and inside. Thats the advantage to being the size he is.

[DraftBoy]

The Bills made it a point to emphasize several times that they chose Ellis because he is solid against the run... Just because he is a good pass rusher that doesnt mean he isnt a good run defender.

I dont care what the Bills say, we've seen numerous times that they will say what they think their fans want to hear. You using their logic wins you no points in this discussion. It would be better for you to not use the Bills logic, since thats whats in question here. I dont think Ellis plays the run well, he did so in college because of his athleticism but that will be neutralized on the next level. He does not contain the package of moves I like to see out of DE coming out of school.

[DraftBoy]

Its usually more difficult for the big, tall guys to run their routes as accurately as the shorter, shiftier players. That being said Hardy probably isnt a great route runner but again its not something that should take him very long with good coaching. The other thing is that receivers with his size have something that lessens the requirement for great route running which is catching radius. Hardy may not run the route with perfect precision but the QB doenst have to throw it with perfect precision either as you would with Holt, Evans Harrison etc. You can throw high and outside and it will still be within reach, as well as high and inside. Thats the advantage to being the size he is.

That still doesnt mean he can run sloppy routes. He has to gain seperation, as of now he doesnt do that and I dont think he'll be a starter till he does.

[DraftBoy]

Clements and McGee did fine in their first transition year to the cover 2... zone defense requires you to sit in your zone its not that hard to get a hang of... training camp should be enough to get him acclimated.

Again I think you are over simplifying the acclimation process and its not just the new scheme, its also the size of the guys, the strength, and the speed. Just because he was our 1st Round pick does not mean he is going to start. Although I think he wil oppositte McGee, just maybe not in Week 1.

[DraftBoy]

The guy calling Hardy raw wanted DRC (the rawest of the raw). Oh the irony.

:rofl:

Show me where I said DRC was not raw and you have a point. I never said Hardy would be bad because he was raw just that he has work to do.

[madness]

:rofl:

Show me where I said DRC was not raw and you have a point. I never said Hardy would be bad because he was raw just that he has work to do.

I know, just had to get a quick jab in. Your DRC lust is legendary in these parts. :D

[DraftBoy]

I know, just had to get a quick jab in. Your DRC lust is legendary in these parts. :D

Not really, but fair enough.

[Mahdi]

I dont care what the Bills say, we've seen numerous times that they will say what they think their fans want to hear. You using their logic wins you no points in this discussion. It would be better for you to not use the Bills logic, since thats whats in question here. I dont think Ellis plays the run well, he did so in college because of his athleticism but that will be neutralized on the next level. He does not contain the package of moves I like to see out of DE coming out of school.
I suppose Merling the guy you love so much does have all these pass rush moves you refer to?

And as for logic that doesnt work... the logic that Chris Ellis being solid against the run in college will be neutralized in the NFL makes no sense. Then I guess the skills of every college player will be neutralized in the NFL also.

The only thing scouts have to refer to for a college prospect is college production and measurables. He did well in both. He was solid against the run in college and he also finished the year with 8 sacks or so. Pass rush moves can be refined, the important thing is that he has the talent.

[DraftBoy]

I suppose Merling the guy you love so much does have all these pass rush moves you refer to?

And as for logic that doesnt work... the logic that Chris Ellis being solid against the run in college will be neutralized in the NFL makes no sense. Then I guess the skills of every college player will be neutralized in the NFL also.

The only thing scouts have to refer to for a college prospect is college production and measurables. He did well in both. He was solid against the run in college and he also finished the year with 8 sacks or so. Pass rush moves can be refined, the important thing is that he has the talent.

Apparently you're not following my logic because if you had you would see that the reason he was successful against the run in college was because of superior athleticism in the ACC. If you really think that will fully translate to the NFL then I dont know what to tell you. But since the guys are bigger, stronger and faster Im very confident it wont.

Merling does have the moves, as does Harvey, Gholston, Campbell, Blake, and a few others. What's your point, other then reinforcing my own that Ellis does not possess the moves you ideally like out of an end coming out of school? Again that does not mean he wont develop them at all, just saying that I would of taken Rucker over him because of what they would give us.

[mysticsoto]

Umm...if you get the top two rated WR's, one of the top TE's, a good OG, a good CB, the best P, and a sleeper S...I dont know how you dont get a good grade...

I would have given them a A-. They needed a DE also and didn't get one...but we grade differently. You grade solely on BPA while I also insert needs into the grading...

[DraftBoy]

I would have given them a A-. They needed a DE also and didn't get one...but we grade differently. You grade solely on BPA while I also insert needs into the grading...

Needs came into play, but they did go DE in the 7th with Rob Jackson who will provide some help but they could of used one earlier. I think getting the top two WR's and drafting well later in the draft gets them an A+ even if they didnt address all their needs.

[Mahdi]

Apparently you're not following my logic because if you had you would see that the reason he was successful against the run in college was because of superior athleticism in the ACC. If you really think that will fully translate to the NFL then I dont know what to tell you. But since the guys are bigger, stronger and faster Im very confident it wont.

Merling does have the moves, as does Harvey, Gholston, Campbell, Blake, and a few others. What's your point, other then reinforcing my own that Ellis does not possess the moves you ideally like out of an end coming out of school? Again that does not mean he wont develop them at all, just saying that I would of taken Rucker over him because of what they would give us.
I think you are trying to be wayyyy to scientific about the whole thing.... Throwing out reasons such as playing in the ACC to justify his run stopping ability?? I dont care what conference he played in, he's aggressive, strong and can get into the backfield and make plays as well as being stout enough at the point of attack to defend the run well.

[DraftBoy]

I think you are trying to be wayyyy to scientific about the whole thing.... Throwing out reasons such as playing in the ACC to justify his run stopping ability?? I dont care what conference he played in, he's aggressive, strong and can get into the backfield and make plays as well as being stout enough at the point of attack to defend the run well.

Why can he do that? Because he utilizes his athleticism to do that. Its no secret that athletes do very well in college because everybody is not of the same caliber but this is the NFL where athleticism cannot solely be relied upon to make plays. He must develop moves, Im sorry if you disagree but if he doesnt he wont be here for long.

[Mahdi]

Why can he do that? Because he utilizes his athleticism to do that. Its no secret that athletes do very well in college because everybody is not of the same caliber but this is the NFL where athleticism cannot solely be relied upon to make plays. He must develop moves, Im sorry if you disagree but if he doesnt he wont be here for long.
I bet Chris Ellis has more pass rush moves than Aaron Schobel. As bad as Schobel was last season he still had six sacks last year and a few FF and of course all the other years with double digit sack totals. Ellis combines a high motor with actual talent, hands and speed which is what I like about him. Whether it comes together in the NFL or not is yet to be seen but from what I have read on him he is a steal in the 3rd round.

[DraftBoy]

I bet Chris Ellis has more pass rush moves than Aaron Schobel. As bad as Schobel was last season he still had six sacks last year and a few FF and of course all the other years with double digit sack totals. Ellis combines a high motor with actual talent, hands and speed which is what I like about him. Whether it comes together in the NFL or not is yet to be seen but from what I have read on him he is a steal in the 3rd round.

Dont confuse athleticism and speed for pass rush moves. Im talking about a swim move, a rip move, a spin move, the stunt, bull rush...stuff like that. Schobel does some of that but is perfect at none of it. I didnt see Ellis really do any of that in school, he for the most part used his speed to get up field around the OT and closed on the QB.

[Saratoga Slim]

Ill start from the beginning though really this whole discussion should be in the other thread from the other day because its Bills related but none the less, Ill respond to each comment.

First off thank you for the compliment and appreciation of my work but I appreciate the fact that you guys read it and like it more.

I have no problem with no drafting Ellis and taking a TE. I dont think Ellis solves the problems we have at DE which Ive gone into great detail about before. We do not need pure pass rusher we need an all around DE. Ellis is a great athlete and he used that to his advantage in the ACC but he really doesnt posess the pass rush moves you like from a DE coming out of school because his athleticism is not that of a Julius Peppers and most NFL OT's are going to be able to neutralize him in that regard. That's not to say he can't develop those moves but if it comes down to choosing between a rotation DE/pass rush specialist and a starting TE. Im going with the starting TE. I even like the Ellis pick as a whole but we could of done better imo. I also completely disagree with you Martin Rucker is a sure fire TE, in fact I ranked him as my #1 overall TE. He is the athletic, big, pass catching TE we needed. Id take him over Ellis and take a DE in Round 4 over Fine, maybe Ellis falls to there. We can't say for sure obviously but I think passing on Rucker for Ellis was a small mistake.

If OBD doesnt see the issue at OC that everyday fans see then Im going to have to question their talent evaluation skills. You wont find one person that will tell you that Fowler is a good starting OC. If they didnt think guys like Justice, or Pollack could be good NFL OC's thats differently, though I disagree with them.

We did not once after Round 2 go BPA in my opinion and thats how I grade the draft. I understand the line of thinking that well they took this guy so he was obviously their top guy on the board, but A) Im not sure of that, and B) I dont grade based on their board, I grade based on my board. Just like Kiper, McShay, and Mayock do. I dont think Im being too hard on the Bills, I think Im being realistic as to who we left on the board and who we took. We took some definite reach picks and it was one of the most disappointing 2nd day drafts for us in a while.

From what I've read, I fully agree that Ellis looks at this point to be more of a pass-rushing specialist. He's not going to be a liability in run situations, but clearly its not what defines him.

However, Martin Rucker is likewise more or less one-dimensional--he's an athletic pass catching TE like you say, but he's not a good blocker at all. He's been described as a wide reciever in a TE's body. Thus, Rucker wouldn't likely be a full time starter either. When we're running, or employing a max-protect, we would likely have seen Royal in there.

Again, it's a judgment call: both our passing game and pass-rush sucked last year. While I would have been more EXCITED to see Rucker added as another weapon for Trent to throw at, I can't say for sure that we won't be as well served by Ellis as another weapon to throw at the opposition's QB. Because we had already added Hardy as a new toy for Trent, I can see the logic in then choosing the best available pass-rushing DE to aid the pass rush, so that both issues were addressed. As opposed to loading up on passing weapons and ignoring the pass rush.

For what it's worth, I'm willing to bet that if Rucker made it to our 4th round pick we wouldn't be debating this right now--I think they liked him.

Finally, with the exception of perhaps Derek Fine, who I can't believe was the BPA on the Bills' list at that point, I think it's pretty hard to say that they didn't go BPA after the 3rd round. I think it was a weighted BPA - i.e. they tended toward people who could either immediately contribute on ST (Bowman), or perhaps a few particular positions at which they wanted to increase our depth. While I don't get the Derek Fine pick, I think Reggie Corner could eventually be a very good nickelback.

[Mahdi]

Dont confuse athleticism and speed for pass rush moves. Im talking about a swim move, a rip move, a spin move, the stunt, bull rush...stuff like that. Schobel does some of that but is perfect at none of it. I didnt see Ellis really do any of that in school, he for the most part used his speed to get up field around the OT and closed on the QB.
From what I have read... Chris Likes to use the inside spin move and is great at shedding blocks with his hands... He should be able to add some more moves. He has the athleticism to do it.

This is from Scouts Notebook:

Matt's Notes on Chris Ellis
Ellis obviously brings a nice frame to the equation. He almost exclusively lines up at left defensive end and while he doesn't possess and excellent burst he is an athletic defensive end. Watching him in 2007 was somewhat of a roller coaster ride as he was very up and down. The potential is there, but he needs to be coached up. One thing Ellis does do is hustle and play well in the open field, where he looks pretty natural. I question whether he'll be valued higher as a 3-4 OLB then a 4-3 DE because of this. I see him making many tackles downfield and in pursuit. He has good hips for a player his size and his ability to change directions relatively quickly could make him a better fit for the 3-4. He's just a guy I can't get a good feel for. Let's just go to some game thoughts.

Against Boston College in the ACC Championship Ellis really showed some flashes, however it won't show up in the box score. He was held constantly in the game and it wasn't called for some reason. Frankly it was very frustrating as I would have liked to see him pick up some sacks. He did use a rip move effectively on the outside to push Matt Ryan up into the pocket. He also showed a very nice inside spin move where he came completely under control to the quarterback for a pressure. Against Kansas he got little pressure, but was a presence as a tackler. He made several hustle plays downfield tackling ball carriers as far as 23 yards downfield. I like that motor, however you want to see sacks or pressures. He had a nice game against Virginia, finishing with seven tackles and one sack. Showed good awareness staying home on a misdirection play to stop the running back for a short gain. Was showing good closing speed to the ball carrier and quarterback, getting a few pressures. He did have a sack in the game, but is was a coverage sack. In the first Boston College game he did have a 15-yard sack and several tackles.

I'd like to see Ellis develop a better arsenal of moves and work on shedding blocks. I really think there is a possibility he'd be a better fit standing up in the NFL.



Tommy's Notes on Chris Ellis
Excellent frame. Really looks the part. Has some athletic ability, but lacks elite burst off the edge. Has okay COD. Uses his hands well. Fights to get through/around blocks. Will drop into coverage on some zone blitzes. Looks okay out in space. Has a good spin move. Plays both sides. Shows understanding of rushing the passer. At times, will come hard upfield, then takes an inside route to the QB. Pursues well. Used good speed to run down RB from behind. Hustled down the line and held the runner to only a yard. Played well vs LSU. Beat RT with an inside move. Later beat him with a good shoulder dip on the outside for a sack. Started for most of 3 seasons. Racked up 19 career sacks, but never did have a great year. Had 5 forced fumbles in his career.

SUMMARY

Tall, athletic prospect at either DE. Can be a good pass rusher. The problem is that Chris will flash very good potential at times, but hasn't ever played at a high level for an entire season. I think he'll go in the 3rd round. Can play either 4-3 DE or 3-4 OLB.