Fine-tuning of new role is rookie tight end’s focus

[Romes]

http://www.buffalonews.com/sports/billsnfl/story/339351.html

Derek Fine’s receiving numbers at the University of Kansas weren’t jaw-dropping last season. But his 46 catches for 394 yards and four touchdowns weren’t that bad for a tight end playing in a spread offense that used multiple wide receivers and moved him all over the field.

Even though Kansas won a school-record 12 games, Fine was overshadowed in the Big XII Conference, where Martellus Bennett of Texas A&M, Martin Rucker of Missouri and Jermichael Finley of Texas got more attention and were drafted earlier.

But the Buffalo Bills believe they benefited from the lack of hype surrounding Fine. The way they have talked up the fifth-year senior, the Bills must think they’ve found a steal in the fourth round.

“This is why we never listen to the media or what the experts might say,” Bills tight end coach Charlie Coiner said. “Sometimes a guy can get on a roll publicitywise and all of a sudden they’ve got six or seven names that keep coming up over and over. Maybe a guy like Derek slips through the cracks. But we’re very happy to have him. I think we’ve got a really good football player.”

Fine will contribute right away on special teams (he was Kansas’ special teams co-MVP), but Coiner wouldn’t stop there.

Desperate for a tight end with receiving skills, the Bills expect Fine to make an early impact in the passing game.

“I think if you’re a tight end and you make the team you’re a guy who is going to be involved immediately in a lot of things,” Coiner said. “I see him as a guy who will come in and contribute in different positions in our offense. He can line up next to the tackle; he can line up as a wing or line up as the second tight end. I think he is going to be a good intermediate and short pass catcher early and I think he’s got the ability to stretch the field when we need to.” ....

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I hope Coiner is right.

[ddaryl]

“This is why we never listen to the media or what the experts might say,” Bills tight end coach Charlie Coiner said. “Sometimes a guy can get on a roll publicitywise and all of a sudden they’ve got six or seven names that keep coming up over and over. Maybe a guy like Derek slips through the cracks. But we’re very happy to have him. I think we’ve got a really good football player.”
.


And this paragraph is exactly what all the draft nay sayers were guilty of. Pretending to know more, and believing the medias perception of via mock drafts and paid publications.

Not saying that the stuff we get from these publications and websites aren't useful, they do however not take much into context outside of raw numbers and raw info, much of which is borowed from the other publications and mock drafts.

the montra of trust your board is well ingrained into the Bills last few drafts and especially this years IMO...

All we can do is sit back and hope our teams scouts and FO are better then others. The last couple of drafts (ones with Marv at the helm) has me believing that they have done well... and continued that this year...

[justasportsfan]

“This is why we never listen to the media or what the experts might say,” Bills tight end coach Charlie Coiner said. .
question is, what probowl TE have Coiner and his scouts produced since they've been here?

Time to prove those scouts and experts (you don't agree with) wrong, Charlie.

[DraftBoy]

No comment...

[Jan Reimers]

I believe Fine is a much better player than all of us Keller-Davis-Bennett-Rucker lovers think he is.

Seems to have really good hands, smarts, a high motor, and at least some blocking ability, which I'm sure he will work on to get better.

[Romes]

And this paragraph is exactly what all the draft nay sayers were guilty of. Pretending to know more, and believing the medias perception of via mock drafts and paid publications.


yes and no.

naturally players will fall through the cracks and fine may be one of those...

but also every team is gonna fall in love with there draft picks and say glowing things about them.

that said it was nice to read that they think Fine stretch the field.

[Romes]

No comment...

Shouldn't McKelvin be going for the pick in your avatar? It looks like he has the position.

Isn't that the knock on him? Not enough INTs. :D

[DraftBoy]

Shouldn't McKelvin be going for the pick in your avatar? It looks like he has the position.

Isn't that the knock on him? Not enough INTs. :P

Not McKelvin necessarily, its just a Madden generated picture.

[dasaybz]

If this guy can actually play, then I won't mind the pick.

Howevere, looking at the pick now, it just didn't seem like they did enough to address the position. I probably would have preferred to take the TE with the 3rd round pick, but hey, the Bills obviously thought differently.

[Mahdi]

Wow. I didnt realize he has such great measurables. #1 in the 3-cone and #3 in the 20 yard shuttle means he has great short area quickness which is probably why he was a big threat in the medium range passing game for Kansas.

Jason Witten doesnt have great long speed either, probably in the 4.8 range as well but his qualities are his hands, C.O.D, and instincts which is the same as Derek Fine from what im reading. He could be a similar player to Witten or Cooley and if he is even close to that he will be a steal.

[ddaryl]

yes and no.

naturally players will fall through the cracks and fine may be one of those...

but also every team is gonna fall in love with there draft picks and say glowing things about them.

that said it was nice to read that they think Fine stretch the field.


Of course teams are going to toot the horn of their draftees, and they should... , but I stand by my belief that the Bills stood by their draft board and took the players they had ranked highest in the slots they chose them.

Not saying that one of the other TE's weren't rated higher, but IMO for exapmle the Bills had a higher rating on Ellis in the 3rd then any of the TE's remaining on the board at that time.

I also believe that the things they bring to point are exactly what the plethera of mock drafts and publications skim over most of the time. A player whose job within a system did not bring that player to the forefront of the draft rankings. Which is exactly the job you want to see done successfully by the scouts and FO of our organization...

and I still laugh at the draft naysayers who really can't see beyond the mocks etc... no matter how much they insist they've watch so-and-so play...

[Tatonka]

this is one thing that i look at..

the bills scouts are very good (for the most part) in picking corners.. most of the corners that the bills pick are solid, if not very good, which is why they never go out and sign a big name corner. and i agreed with that process.. big name corners cost tons of money, and if you can pick one in the draft, then thats ok.

but the bills do NOT have a good track record of picking TEs. they lucked out on Jay Remiersma years ago, and we have not had a good one since then. That being said, how is anyone supposed to have faith that all the sudden they know how to pick a tight end, when they havent ever been able to?

[ddaryl]

Howevere, looking at the pick now, it just didn't seem like they did enough to address the position. I probably would have preferred to take the TE with the 3rd round pick, but hey, the Bills obviously thought differently.


I guess the question here is what did the Bills have on their list of a more pressing need. A pass rushing DE or a TE, and what were the rankings on their board for the remaining players left.

I assume that Ellis graded out higher then the remaining TE's on the Bills board and that is why they drafted Ellis. If the remaining TE's graded out higher then Ellis then Bills probably would have drafted one of the TE's left in round 3.

I will also assume the forumla the Bills use includes calculations for positions of need, and a pass rushing DE might have been of more importance to the Bills then a pass catching TE at that point.

[ddaryl]

That being said, how is anyone supposed to have faith that all the sudden they know how to pick a tight end, when they havent ever been able to?


This is a simple answer for me... because going the other route and complaining about the pick would just make me miserable and I wouldn't look forward to trainng camp, preseason and the season in general as much... So I choose to Billieve regardless of the past. this in return allows me to Billieve a little more.

Of course I start to sink into reality mode towards the end of pre-season and by the 1st 4-6 games of the season I'm in reality mode. you will notice that I don't post as much during the season because there is nothing left to specualte on, and I'm sure as hell not going to waste my time *****ing about it. I just watch every week and deal with the reality.

This year is going to be different though.. I can feel it. !!!!

[TigerJ]

"I think he is going to be a good intermediate and short pass catcher early and I think he’s got the ability to stretch the field when we need to.”

I'm not one to cry over spilt milk. The deal is done and Derek Fine is a Buffalo Bill. I'll root for him and hope he does well. I just hope Coiner is right.

[dasaybz]

I guess the question here is what did the Bills have on their list of a more pressing need. A pass rushing DE or a TE, and what were the rankings on their board for the remaining players left.

I assume that Ellis graded out higher then the remaining TE's on the Bills board and that is why they drafted Ellis. If the remaining TE's graded out higher then Ellis then Bills probably would have drafted one of the TE's left in round 3.

I will also assume the forumla the Bills use includes calculations for positions of need, and a pass rushing DE might have been of more importance to the Bills then a pass catching TE at that point.

Yup, that is exactly their thinking. We'll see if Fine works out though. I'm very skeptical, but we'll see.

I'll be keeping my eye on him in training camp and preseason for sure.

[Ickybaluky]

Jason Witten doesnt have great long speed either, probably in the 4.8 range as well but his qualities are his hands, C.O.D, and instincts which is the same as Derek Fine from what im reading. He could be a similar player to Witten or Cooley and if he is even close to that he will be a steal.

Witten is a poor comparison. Witten is a lot bigger, and he ran 4.65 at the combine. He is more of a true TE instead of an H-Back.

Cooley is a better example, although Cooley is a little big thicker. Cooley ran about the same (4.87), and isn't as quick as Fine. Both are strong guys who aren't afraid to work in traffic.

Fine is compared with David Thomas a lot. Both are real good receivers in the short area and are about the same size. Both are high-character, team-leader types who aren't afraid to contribute on ST. Thomas is a little faster and can stretch the field a little more. Fine was a very smooth receiver, but he didn't stretch the field in college (he averaged 10.3 YPR in an open offense) and I don't think that will be his role in the NFL. I think he will be an effective guy being moved around and working the underneath stuff, and he has the hands and has the strength and toughness to work those zones. He is the kind of guy who catches the ball well and can covert on 3rd downs.

[Tatonka]

how is it that the bills are the only ones that noticed this awesome tight end and they have never been able to pick an awesome tight end before?

i do hope he is great.. having chris cooley on the team would help alot... but i am not expecting it.

[Dozerdog]

question is, what probowl TE have Coiner and his scouts produced since they've been here?

Time to prove those scouts and experts (you don't agree with) wrong, Charlie.
I'd rather draft 3 or 4 useful starters or key role players than continually chase a dream called "Pro bowl" TE. It's like chasing a unicorn or a leprichaun at the end of a rainbow


Pro Bowl TEs are one part great talent, one part physical attributes, one part being in the right system, one part having a QB that can find / hit a TE with regularity. It is usually not the norm that the TE is the first option a QB looks for. Only on teams with weak WRs are TE's usually sought out as the primary guy.


Marcus Pollard is a great example. All Fantasy team TE with the Colts, as soon as he left for a decent contract elsewhere he fell off the earth.

[yordad]

I will believe this, when I see this.

[DraftBoy]

I'd rather draft 3 or 4 useful starters or key role players than continually chase a dream called "Pro bowl" TE. It's like chasing a unicorn or a leprichaun at the end of a rainbow


Pro Bowl TEs are one part great talent, one part physical attributes, one part being in the right system, one part having a QB that can find / hit a TE with regularity. It is usually not the norm that the TE is the first option a QB looks for. Only on teams with weak WRs are TE's usually sought out as the primary guy.


Marcus Pollard is a great example. All Fantasy team TE with the Colts, as soon as he left for a decent contract elsewhere he fell off the earth.

However the new breed TE like Gates, Gonzalez, Whitten, Shockey, dont fit your mold. I have little doubt that those guys could be productive with any team regardless of the system.

[yordad]

I'd rather draft 3 or 4 useful starters or key role players than continually chase a dream called "Pro bowl" TE. It's like chasing a unicorn or a leprichaun at the end of a rainbow


Pro Bowl TEs are one part great talent, one part physical attributes, one part being in the right system, one part having a QB that can find / hit a TE with regularity. It is usually not the norm that the TE is the first option a QB looks for. Only on teams with weak WRs are TE's usually sought out as the primary guy.


Marcus Pollard is a great example. All Fantasy team TE with the Colts, as soon as he left for a decent contract elsewhere he fell off the earth.Well, how about a probowl TE and 2 to 3 useful starters. Or, how about 3 to 4 probowlers. I don't know how you can say you would rather not draft probowlers. It isn't like we are trading these useful starters for one pro bowl TE. If we happen to draft a pro bowl TE it only cost one pick. With any pick I would rather get a probowler then a useful starter at the same position.

Maybe I am misunderstanding. :headscrat

[ddaryl]

how is it that the bills are the only ones that noticed this awesome tight end and they have never been able to pick an awesome tight end before?

i do hope he is great.. having chris cooley on the team would help alot... but i am not expecting it.


how do you know only the Bills took notice..

Could other teams have been interested just the same but the Bills snatched him up in the 4th before other teams could make the pick?

Could these other teams not also have higher rankings on other players at other positions in the earlier rounds that met their immediate needs more then a TE ???

you're reaching for reasons to say the Bills screwed up at the same level some of us are reaching to say Fine will be just fine at TE.

from the reports i have read about Fine he doesn't seem to be out of place with the TE's taken before him...

I also feel our lack of TE production has been just as much an OC playcalling/game planning problem as it has been under whelming players at the position.

and don't forget.. Antonio Gates was a UDFA... so just becuase Fine hasn't recieved a ton of praise by the mocks and draft publications does not mean he can't turn out to be the best or one of the best TE's out of this years draft.

[ddaryl]

However the new breed TE like Gates,

Antonio gates was an UDFA.... just a reminder when we are calling out pro-bowl caliber TE's

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/gallery/featured/GAL1135303/10/13/index.htm

[DraftBoy]

Antonio gates was an UDFA.... just a reminder when we are calling out pro-bowl caliber TE's

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/gallery/featured/GAL1135303/10/13/index.htm

Im well aware

[ddaryl]

Im well aware

you are, but I'm sure there are bunches out there that don't realize this... heck I didn't know until late last week when SI posted the list of best UDFA's since 1994

[Night Train]

Draft a TE over a DL or OL ? The day that happens, I want the entire Front Office fired.

Gonzales,Gates types are exceptions to the norm. Fine could be anything but getting Hardy & maybe Johnson to upgrade the receiving corp, in addition to Fine, is not too bad. The biggest difference will be whether the Turk can call plays for Edwards anyhow.

After our Vet FA signings, we needed a CB,WR & pass rusher and got exactly that.

I saw TE as a round 4-5 pick all along and would have been pissed if they reached for one early, with so many other glaring needs.

[Mahdi]

Witten is a poor comparison. Witten is a lot bigger, and he ran 4.65 at the combine. He is more of a true TE instead of an H-Back.

Cooley is a better example, although Cooley is a little big thicker. Cooley ran about the same (4.87), and isn't as quick as Fine. Both are strong guys who aren't afraid to work in traffic.

Fine is compared with David Thomas a lot. Both are real good receivers in the short area and are about the same size. Both are high-character, team-leader types who aren't afraid to contribute on ST. Thomas is a little faster and can stretch the field a little more. Fine was a very smooth receiver, but he didn't stretch the field in college (he averaged 10.3 YPR in an open offense) and I don't think that will be his role in the NFL. I think he will be an effective guy being moved around and working the underneath stuff, and he has the hands and has the strength and toughness to work those zones. He is the kind of guy who catches the ball well and can covert on 3rd downs.
I knew that Witten is bigger than Fine but didnt realize he ran the 40 that fast... I'll settle for Cooley though so its all good...

[ddaryl]

... he didn't stretch the field in college (he averaged 10.3 YPR in an open offense) and I don't think that will be his role in the NFL. I think he will be an effective guy being moved around and working the underneath stuff, and he has the hands and has the strength and toughness to work those zones. He is the kind of guy who catches the ball well and can covert on 3rd downs.


To me this is a good reason to believe Fine will work out for us. If he can become a solid dump down option and make those quick catches and move the chains then what is not to like...

[John Doe]

I don't know if Fine is going to be a good tight end/H back or not. His actual play will decide that.

I do think that he is almost a sure lock to make the team, and for good reason.

Here is a guy that caught 46 passes, blocked well on other plays, was the co-MVP of the special teams, team Captain for 2 years, all time record holder for tight ends at his school, and was at the top of the class in many tests athleticism at the combine.

Again: the starting tight end and the co-MVP of the special teams in a big-time college program.

He will play a big role on special teams right away and maybe he becomes a solid reciever in certain situations too.

What is wrong with that for a 4th rounder?

[Ickybaluky]

Antonio gates was an UDFA.... just a reminder when we are calling out pro-bowl caliber TE's

I think his not playing any organized football since high school was part of the reason for that.

Gates was recruited to play big-time college football, but he wanted to play basketball instead. He attended Easter Michigan, a couple Junior Colleges and Kent State, but didn't play football at any of them.

He is the exception, not the rule, and shouldn't be used for any comparison.

[justasportsfan]

This is a simple answer for me... because going the other route and complaining about the pick would just make me miserable and I wouldn't look forward to trainng camp, preseason and the season in general as much... So I choose to Billieve regardless of the past. this in return allows me to Billieve a little more.


I hear ya but lets just say the rest of us a cautiously optimistic and aren't buying into anything that just comes out of OBD because their scouts says so. Didn't they try to sell us Shouman last year? What about Wright ? yet they drafted Oman.

I was excited about Shouman going into camp. What has become of him? :idunno:

[justasportsfan]

I'd rather draft 3 or 4 useful starters or key role players than continually chase a dream called "Pro bowl" TE. It's like chasing a unicorn or a leprichaun at the end of a rainbow


Pro Bowl TEs are one part great talent, one part physical attributes, one part being in the right system, one part having a QB that can find / hit a TE with regularity. It is usually not the norm that the TE is the first option a QB looks for. Only on teams with weak WRs are TE's usually sought out as the primary guy.


Marcus Pollard is a great example. All Fantasy team TE with the Colts, as soon as he left for a decent contract elsewhere he fell off the earth.
I completely agree with you. I just think that they shouldn't shoot any other scout or expert out there and then come back and try to sell us a TRUE TE in Fines when they haven't ever produced one. Some of these scouts and experts may have actually brought in guys like clark and if they didn't think highly of Fines does that mean these scouts/experts were wrong?

If our scouts and experts were the only ones right out there, then we wouldn't have had to keep cutting and bringing back guys like Neufeld ,etc,.

I can buy into other postions of the team but TE isn't exactly something this FO has been known to produce.

[HHURRICANE]

Whatever. I believe that the Bills will suck at TE again. End of story.

[Oaf]

Who knows? He could be the next Tim Euhus! :couch:

Royal, Schouman, Anderson, Johnson, Fine. How does that translate into a depth chart?

[Night Train]

Royal, Schouman, Anderson, Johnson, Fine. How does that translate into a depth chart?

Depth chart ? I thought they were representing me in my injury settlement ?