Bryant Johnson or James Hardy

[THATHURMANATOR]

Hardy all the way and for millions less cash.

[Mr. Miyagi]

Well we couldn't have known that Hardy would've fallen to us, and no way we were going to take him in Round 1.

With that said, Hardy is the choice.

Where did Bryant Johnson sign again?

[Philagape]

49ers

[THATHURMANATOR]

For how much money?

[ddaryl]

none of the top FA WR were worth the amount they signed for IMO.

and none of them had the height or leaping ability as Hardy.


Would like to have another sure handed vet but I am definitely real happy we have Hardy

[Buckets]

Johnson did us a favor.

[yordad]

Well, the question should be:

Hardy or Hardy + Johnson?

It wasn't either or, we would have given up nothing to sign Johnson. It wouldn't have hurt one bit. And we are still like 30 million under cash-to-cap.

But, if it is a hypothetical "who would you rather have?" I'll gamble and take Hardy all day.

[RockStar36]

So you guys are saying the Bills FO knew what they were doing when they didn't sign Johnson despite all the fans flipping out about it? Amazing...

[THATHURMANATOR]

Well, the question should be:

Hardy or Hardy + Johnson?

It wasn't either or, we would have given up nothing to sign Johnson. It wouldn't have hurt one bit. And we are still like 30 million under cash-to-cap.

But, if it is a hypothetical "who would you rather have?" I'll gamble and take Hardy all day.
If we signed Johnson I doubt we draft Hardy

[bigbub2352]

I think if we had signed Johnson would have have not drafted a WR in the 2nd round, that being said i was a big fan of signing Johnson,

But now that we got Hardy who has a ton of potential i am just as happy, i reallly wanted a WR like Devin Thomas, but Hardy is the answer to alot of our redzone problems, and could be a huge addition to this team

So i say Hardy

[yordad]

If we signed Johnson I doubt we draft HardyOK, then we draft player B, and the question should actually be:

Hardy or Johnson + player B? Right?

Not to mention, I still would have wanted to draft Hardy. He presented great value. And they still might have, since they weren't interested in fielding a good Tight end.

[Jan Reimers]

Johnson is a veteran who might have given us more help this season, but I'll take Hardy for the long haul.

[EDS]

Hardy all the way and for millions less cash.

Hardy just because of the "potential" factor. That said, keep in mind that Johnson was a 1st round pick and that not all draft picks live up to expectations. I am pulling for Hardy but he could become the next Bucky Brooks, so you never know.

[mysticsoto]

OK, then we draft player B, and the question should actually be:

Hardy or Johnson + player B? Right?

Not to mention, I still would have wanted to draft Hardy. He presented great value. And they still might have, since they weren't interested in fielding a good Tight end.
I am glad we went with Hardy instad of Johnson + player B. Looking at the prospects available at the time we picked, I might only consider DT Trevor Laws...maybe TE Martellus Bennett. But considering the way the FO drafted, they might have picked another UDFA candidate at #2 - so I prefer to stick to the way things played out!!!

[yordad]

I am glad we went with Hardy instad of Johnson + player B. Looking at the prospects available at the time we picked, I might only consider DT Trevor Laws...maybe TE Martellus Bennett. But considering the way the FO drafted, they might have picked another UDFA candidate at #2 - so I prefer to stick to the way things played out!!!Well, ok, again, how about Johnson + Hardy.

No matter how you slice it, you can add Johnson without subtracting anyone. Unless you think Johnson is a cancer, or somehow wouldn't make the team, saying you would rather not have Johnson makes no sense.

It is like you are saying, "well, they didn't mess it up, so I prefere not to give them a chance to mess it up".

You pick player B, any player B, then tell me you would rather not have Johnson.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Well, ok, again, how about Johnson + Hardy.

No matter how you slice it, you can add Johnson without subtracting anyone. Unless you think Johnson is a cancer, or somehow wouldn't make the team, saying you would rather not have Johnson makes no sense.

It is like you are saying, "well, they didn't mess it up, so I prefere not to give them a chance to mess it up".

You pick player B, any player B, then tell me you would rather not have Johnson.
The message I am trying convey is that many people on this board pulled their normal freak out moves when Johnson wasn't signed like this was the end of the world. They were wrong again.

[yordad]

The message I am trying convey is that many people on this board pulled their normal freak out moves when Johnson wasn't signed like this was the end of the world. They were wrong again.I hear you, but I am still freaking out. We are still MILLIONS under cash to cap. We are improved, but we could have been more improved. I will continue to be bitter until we extend Crowell, Evans, or do something other then fatten the pockets of Ralph's children.

Is it wrong to think we could have been MORE improved? Is it wrong to think that if we had our exact same roster right now + Johnson we would be a little better? Or, + anyone for that matter.

[THATHURMANATOR]

I hear you, but I am still freaking out. We are still MILLIONS under cash to cap. We are improved, but we could have been more improved. I will continue to be bitter until we extend Crowell, Evans, or do something other then fatten the pockets of Ralph's children.

Is it wrong to think we could have been MORE improved? Is it wrong to think that if we had our exact same roster right now + Johnson we would be a little better? Or, + anyone for that matter.
I am not bothered by this at all. Realistically who else did you want them to sign? I am not huge on Bryant Johnson and think reed/Parrish are fine as slot receivers. I suppose a center/Guard was needed but really there wasnt a great center out there to sign.

[mysticsoto]

I hear you, but I am still freaking out. We are still MILLIONS under cash to cap. We are improved, but we could have been more improved. I will continue to be bitter until we extend Crowell, Evans, or do something other then fatten the pockets of Ralph's children.

Is it wrong to think we could have been MORE improved? Is it wrong to think that if we had our exact same roster right now + Johnson we would be a little better? Or, + anyone for that matter.

I still prefer the route we took b'cse while it sounds nice to have Johnson + Hardy, I don't think Johnson will live up to the money he wanted in order to be here. As such, though he might provide a better initial option to start the season, by the end of the season we'd probably be *****ing about how little he's produced compared to the contract he got. I prefer they try and use that money to sign Evans long term. As it stands, I have to guess that Evans' agent must have an exorbitant amt of money that he will want to sign Evans more. I doubt anything less than $10 mil a year will cut it - especially if he has a big year this year which I think they might be expecting with Hardy drawing some attention away. Paying Evans may depend on how quickly Hardy develops and might even have some impact from Steve Johnson's development. If these guys develop quickly, I bet they let Evans walk at that high of a price and draft a 1st rd WR next year alongside Hardy...They could also bring in a cheaper vet. However, if they choose to pay Evans, I won't be upset - if he has a good year this year. :D

[yordad]

I still prefer the route we took b'cse while it sounds nice to have Johnson + Hardy, I don't think Johnson will live up to the money he wanted in order to be here. As such, though he might provide a better initial option to start the season, by the end of the season we'd probably be *****ing about how little he's produced compared to the contract he got. I prefer they try and use that money to sign Evans long term. As it stands, I have to guess that Evans' agent must have an exorbitant amt of money that he will want to sign Evans more. I doubt anything less than $10 mil a year will cut it - especially if he has a big year this year which I think they might be expecting with Hardy drawing some attention away. Paying Evans may depend on how quickly Hardy develops and might even have some impact from Steve Johnson's development. If these guys develop quickly, I bet they let Evans walk at that high of a price and draft a 1st rd WR next year alongside Hardy...They could also bring in a cheaper vet. However, if they choose to pay Evans, I won't be upset - if he has a good year this year. :DYour half right, IMO. I would rather they extend Evans. But, do you think Ralph's children are going to live up to the money Johnson wanted? Because it goes to them, not the roster, if it isn't spent.

Extending Lee should have been their number 1 priority. All of the Bills FA signings combined would pale in comparison to a loss of Lee. He should have been signed before free agency ever started. Now we are going to try next year after he makes the pro bowl? Duh.

I am not bothered by this at all. Realistically who else did you want them to sign? I am not huge on Bryant Johnson and think reed/Parrish are fine as slot receivers. I suppose a center/Guard was needed but really there wasnt a great center out there to sign.Realistically, they could have signed anyone and it would be better then Ralph's children getting richer. Anyone that would have made the team would be alright with me. If they made the team the least they could be is better depth. But, specifically:

The FB they brought in whose name I forgot
Troupe (TE)
They should have tried for Crumpler (TE)
Eric Johnson (TE)
Bryant Johnson while we are at it

If I was at home, and not at work, I could come up with like 50 names, but I think you get the point. Point is, anyone is better then no one. 30 million in cash-to-cap unspent is unforgetable.

[Goobylal]

I really wanted Bryant Johnson, but after seeing him drag his feet so long, I realized he just didn't want to be in Buffalo unless he got ridiculously overpaid. Maybe he was spoiled by the warm weather in AZ. He took a 1-year deal for peanuts in SF to allegedly "showcase" himself, but he'll wind-up with a worse season in 2008 with them than he did in AZ in 2007, and find that the Bills' offer was the best one he'll ever get.

But hey, it worked-out. Johnson hadn't even proven to be a good #2 WR (no 100 yard receiving games in 39 starts) and was more a projection as a #2 WR. And Hardy, while unproven, at least hasn't proven that he's not a #2 WR.

[yordad]

I really wanted Bryant Johnson, but after seeing him drag his feet so long, I realized he just didn't want to be in Buffalo unless he got ridiculously overpaid. Maybe he was spoiled by the warm weather in AZ. He took a 1-year deal for peanuts in SF to allegedly "showcase" himself, but he'll wind-up with a worse season in 2008 with them than he did in AZ in 2007, and find that the Bills' offer was the best one he'll ever get.

But hey, it worked-out. Johnson hadn't even proven to be a good #2 WR (no 100 yard receiving games in 39 starts) and was more a projection as a #2 WR. And Hardy, while unproven, at least hasn't proven that he's not a #2 WR.Johnson had 39 starts? I think you mean 39 games played. But, that would be sweet charma if the guy turned down the biggest offer he is ever going to receive to go bomb in SF, LOL.

[Goobylal]

Johnson had 39 starts? I think you mean 39 games played. But, that would be sweet charma if the guy turned down the biggest offer he is ever going to receive to go bomb in SF, LOL.
He made 39 starts in 77 games played and never had more than 87 yards and 1 TD a game. And given the situation on offense in SF, it's almost a given he'll put up worse numbers considering theur QB stinks, they have no WR's even close to Fitz or Boldin, and Gore is always hurt.

[yordad]

He made 39 starts in 77 games played and never had more than 87 yards and 1 TD a game. And given the situation on offense in SF, it's almost a given he'll put up worse numbers considering theur QB stinks, they have no WR's even close to Fitz or Boldin, and Gore is always hurt.Sorry your right, I had a brain fart.

[PECKERWOOD]

So you guys are saying the Bills FO knew what they were doing when they didn't sign Johnson despite all the fans flipping out about it? Amazing...

I think the Bills knew we would have a shot at a decent WR somewhere in the 2nd, they couldn't dream that it would be Hardy though.

[Yasgur's Farm]

I'm sure it would have been Bryant Johnson + Devin Thomas, James Hardy, Limas Sweed or Malcolm Kelly.

Bottom line is that the Bills would have been better off if we signed Bryant Johnson.

Jmaes Hardy + Bryant Johnson > James Hardy + Steve Johnson

[feelthepain]

Just wondering what Bill fans think of this little tidbit.

After the draft Miami signed WR's Davone Bess. He impressed at rookie camp catching everything thrown his way. He's 5'10 196 pounds and ran a 4.6 in the 40. But don't let the measuables fool you. Here's what he did at Hawaii in his three years.

Davone Bess: finished with a WAC-record 293 catches for 3,610 yards and 41 touchdowns in just three seasons.

James Hardy: became the Hoosiers' all-time receiving leader in touchdowns (36), yards (2,690) and receptions (186).

I know Bess had just over 100 more catches, but that's only about a 2 yard per catch difference. Hardy avg. 14 yards per catch and Bess 12 yards per catch. Not exactly big difference considering the difference in speed and height.

My question to Bill fans is, If you're excited about Hardy and where he was drafted based on what he did in college and how that may trasnlate to the NFL could you honestly say an undrafted Bess gives Dolphin fans any less reason to believe he has just as much to offer the Dolphins as Hardy gives to the Bills?

Considering Hardy cost the Bills much more money and a 2nd round pick. Looking at the two players careers there's no reason to believe Bess couldn't be just as successful as Hardy. Size and speed are hardly a reason to think there is any advantage at all based on production in their college careers. Some of the best WR's in the game are on the small side. Also Bess was said to be a model citizen in Hawaii, where as Hardy had a hard time staying out of trouble in Indiana. Intangibles do matter.

Also lets not forget where players like Tom Brady and Jerry Rice were drafted. So where a player is drafted is hardly a excuse to think one player is better then another.

Just wonder what Bill fans think about the two players.

[Yasgur's Farm]

What do you Doll fans feel about 6th rounder X Omon? 5-11, 228, 4.6, 4736 yd's, 5.3 yd's/carry, 55 td's.

Former 1st rounder and #2 overall R Brown - 6-0, 223, 4.44, 2725 yd's, 5.4 yd's/carry, 28 td's.

Surely you must be concerned you reached for Brown!!

[hydro]

What do you Doll fans feel about 6th rounder X Omon? 5-11, 228, 4.6, 4736 yd's, 5.3 yd's/carry, 55 td's.

Former 1st rounder and #2 overall R Brown - 6-0, 223, 4.44, 2725 yd's, 5.4 yd's/carry, 28 td's.

Surely you must be concerned you reached for Brown!!

:rofl: :bf1:

[THATHURMANATOR]

Just wondering what Bill fans think of this little tidbit.

After the draft Miami signed WR's Davone Bess. He impressed at rookie camp catching everything thrown his way. He's 5'10 196 pounds and ran a 4.6 in the 40. But don't let the measuables fool you. Here's what he did at Hawaii in his three years.

Davone Bess: finished with a WAC-record 293 catches for 3,610 yards and 41 touchdowns in just three seasons.

James Hardy: became the Hoosiers' all-time receiving leader in touchdowns (36), yards (2,690) and receptions (186).

I know Bess had just over 100 more catches, but that's only about a 2 yard per catch difference. Hardy avg. 14 yards per catch and Bess 12 yards per catch. Not exactly big difference considering the difference in speed and height.

My question to Bill fans is, If you're excited about Hardy and where he was drafted based on what he did in college and how that may trasnlate to the NFL could you honestly say an undrafted Bess gives Dolphin fans any less reason to believe he has just as much to offer the Dolphins as Hardy gives to the Bills?

Considering Hardy cost the Bills much more money and a 2nd round pick. Looking at the two players careers there's no reason to believe Bess couldn't be just as successful as Hardy. Size and speed are hardly a reason to think there is any advantage at all based on production in their college careers. Some of the best WR's in the game are on the small side. Also Bess was said to be a model citizen in Hawaii, where as Hardy had a hard time staying out of trouble in Indiana. Intangibles do matter.

Also lets not forget where players like Tom Brady and Jerry Rice were drafted. So where a player is drafted is hardly a excuse to think one player is better then another.

Just wonder what Bill fans think about the two players.
Sure Bess could be better than Hardy after its all said and done. Odds are he wont. You must keep in mind Hawaii is a pass happy offense. Look at Colt Brennan for example. Will he even make an NFL roster? No pick is a guarantee but Hardy is a much better talent. The receiver we took in the 7th apparently looks great too. We will see.

[feelthepain]

What do you Doll fans feel about 6th rounder X Omon? 5-11, 228, 4.6, 4736 yd's, 5.3 yd's/carry, 55 td's.

Former 1st rounder and #2 overall R Brown - 6-0, 223, 4.44, 2725 yd's, 5.4 yd's/carry, 28 td's.

Surely you must be concerned you reached for Brown!!

Why would I be concerned? Ronnie shared time with Cadillac Williams (also a top 10 pick in the draft) at Auburn. Ronnie is also proven in the league. Neither Hardy or Bess have taken a snap in the NFL, so you could try a little harder to make some sense when crying like a baby because someone comes here and throws a wrench in you WR lovefest.

I think you Bill fans are funny, EVERYTHING offends you, Everything except telling you your team and players are better then everyone elses, then you're somehow not offended. Someone brings up a valid point and you get all defensive. I'm just pointing out how Miami has a rookie WR who put better numbers then then the Bills rookie WR and there should be no reason why we shouldn't be just as happy or have any less reason to believe Bess will be evey bit as good as you Bill fans believe Hardy will be.

[feelthepain]

Sure Bess could be better than Hardy after its all said and done. Odds are he wont. You must keep in mind Hawaii is a pass happy offense. Look at Colt Brennan for example. Will he even make an NFL roster? No pick is a guarantee but Hardy is a much better talent. The receiver we took in the 7th apparently looks great too. We will see.


You can either catch a football or you can't. 90% of WR's in this league survive and thrive based on catching the ball. Route running and health are both key to that success. Obviously both Bess and Hardy can do that. Bess was coached in Hawaii by former NFL HC and now Hawaii HC June Jones. Bess was obviously spending his time with an experienced NFL coach, who coached Hardy?? How does a system determine if you can catch a football or not? It doesn't.

[justasportsfan]

My question to Bill fans is, If you're excited about Hardy and where he was drafted based on what he did in college and how that may trasnlate to the NFL could you honestly say an undrafted Bess gives Dolphin fans any less reason to believe he has just as much to offer the Dolphins as Hardy gives to the Bills? . Maybe we should compare HArdy's college nos. to Ginns.


Last 2 years in college

Ginn rec 110 yds 1584 td 13
Hardy rec 130 yds 1847 TD 26



Considering Hardy cost the Bills much more money and a 2nd round pick. . a 2nd is nothing compared to what you guys used to grab Ginn and how much you're paying him.

[THATHURMANATOR]

You can either catch a football or you can't. 90% of WR's in this league survive and thrive based on catching the ball. Route running and health are both key to that success. Obviously both Bess and Hardy can do that. Bess was coached in Hawaii by former NFL HC and now Hawaii HC June Jones. Bess was obviously spending his time with an experienced NFL coach, who coached Hardy?? How does a system determine if you can catch a football or not? It doesn't.
June Jones was a former NFL coach but his offense in Hawaii is not used in the NFL and that is what really matters right. It was a shotgun offense similar to the run and Shoot.

[feelthepain]

June Jones was a former NFL coach but his offense in Hawaii is not used in the NFL and that is what really matters right. It was a shotgun offense similar to the run and Shoot.

Bess is a WR, not a QB. He still has to run routes, he still has to find seems, he still has the catch the ball, he stiill has to beat the jams, he still has to avoid tacklers and score TD's. Being a WR in any system is still the same your fundamental responsibilities don't change from system to system. You're trying to make it sound as if Bess had some advantage as a WR. He didn't, he was still covered by cornerbacks, Safties and LB's. He still had to run precis routes and catch the football in traffic and then make something happen. As with everything, we'll just have to wait and see, my whole point to the original question was to let you know other teams drafted WR's that we're just as high on as Bill fans are about Hardy. The difference, if Bess doesn't work out we've invested nothing. If Hardy doesn't work out, well your team has invested a whole lot more.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Bess is a WR, not a QB. He still has to run routes, he still has to find seems, he still has the catch the ball, he stiill has to beat the jams, he still has to avoid tacklers and score TD's. Being a WR in any system is still the same your fundamental responsibilities don't change from system to system. You're trying to make it sound as if Bess had some advantage as a WR. He didn't, he was still covered by cornerbacks, Safties and LB's. He still had to run precis routes and catch the football in traffic and then make something happen. As with everything, we'll just have to wait and see, my whole point to the original question was to let you know other teams drafted WR's that we're just as high on as Bill fans are about Hardy. The difference, if Bess doesn't work out we've invested nothing. If Hardy doesn't work out, well your team has invested a whole lot more.
You didnt' need to explain what position Bess is or what WRs do. I am not a ****ing ******. The point is(you seemed to have missed it) that in a pass happy offense in a weak division his stats are quite inflated. Add this to the fact that he is slow and not all that big and it doesn't bode well for him. Justa schooled you in regards to the Ginn pick. He is a bonafide Kick returner that the Fins took at what 9th overall? What happens when he doesn't work out?

[justasportsfan]

Justa schooled you

It's very easy to do. He gets himself schooled.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Yep and no one is really even saying that he couldn't be right and Hardy could suck, but with his logic a team should be afraid to draft anyone at any time.

[mysticsoto]

Bess is a WR, not a QB. He still has to run routes, he still has to find seems, he still has the catch the ball, he stiill has to beat the jams, he still has to avoid tacklers and score TD's. Being a WR in any system is still the same your fundamental responsibilities don't change from system to system. You're trying to make it sound as if Bess had some advantage as a WR. He didn't, he was still covered by cornerbacks, Safties and LB's. He still had to run precis routes and catch the football in traffic and then make something happen. As with everything, we'll just have to wait and see, my whole point to the original question was to let you know other teams drafted WR's that we're just as high on as Bill fans are about Hardy. The difference, if Bess doesn't work out we've invested nothing. If Hardy doesn't work out, well your team has invested a whole lot more.
In nfldraftcountdown they have Bess ranked at #40 while Hardy is #4.

While analysts are not always right, virtually everyone had Hardy ranked much, much higher than Bess. Here's what Scott has to say about Bess:

Strengths:
A smooth athlete...Adequate size and bulk...Very good hands...Is more quick than fast...An excellent route runner...Agile with good change of direction...Elusive with good vision and runs well after the catch...Nice instincts and awareness..Has a lot of experience...Tough and fearless..Offers some return potential...Very productive.

Weaknesses:
Doesn't have very good timed speed...Not a big play threat and won't stretch the field vertically...Is not very physical...Sub par blocker...Will have to adjust to a pro style offense...Some character concerns..Upside might be limited at the next level.

Notes:
Was originally slated to attend Oregon State out of high school in '03 but ran into some off-the-field trouble and he was sentenced to 15 months in a juvenile facility for receiving stolen property...Was at least in part a product of the Warriors Run & Shoot offense...Not quite the pro prospect his numbers and press clippings would lead you to believe..At most he profiles as a #3 or #4 target and return specialist.


And by the way, it strikes me very funny that you are comparing investments between Hardy and Bess. Yes, you've invested very little in Bess compared to us with Hardy - but how much more have you invested in Ginn? And how much have you invested in Wilford? More than we were willing to, that's for sure.

This argument you are presenting is pure homerism..."my WR has better stats than yours, and we drafted him later...so what do you think of that?"

Why don't we wait to see what they produce on the field and then you can come back with your tail between the legs and say, "well, atleast we didn't invest much in him..."

[justasportsfan]

This argument you are presenting is pure homerism..."my WR has better stats than yours, and we drafted him later...so what do you think of that?"


You would figure that Parcells didn't think he was all that since he passed him up in 7 rds and only brought him in as an UDRFA. Then again that would require thinking on FTP's part ....

[feelthepain]

You didnt' need to explain what position Bess is or what WRs do. I am not a ****ing ******. The point is(you seemed to have missed it) that in a pass happy offense in a weak division his stats are quite inflated. Add this to the fact that he is slow and not all that big and it doesn't bode well for him. Justa schooled you in regards to the Ginn pick. He is a bonafide Kick returner that the Fins took at what 9th overall? What happens when he doesn't work out?


I think you miss the point, where you go to school and who you play at school has nothing to do with playing in the NFL. You can either play or you can't. There is a long history of players from small schools playing weak competition becoming pro bowlers and HOF's in the NFL. Jerry Rice, TO and Steve Smith come to mind. Heck look at your own Andre Reed, care to guess where he went to college?

Kutztown, a samll college in Jackson PA how many players made it in the NFL from kutztown? Just one so far, but where Andre went to school didn't stop him from playing great football in the NFL, but it does determine what Bess will do? Typical Bill fan, different set of rules for everything the Bills do then everyone else in the league.

On the other hand you have Big time Heisman trophy winning, Big School football players who fail miserably at the NFL level. It's obvious based on the history of players in the NFL that where a player goes to school has nothing to do with success or failure at the NFL level. I know you are looking for excuses for the success between Hardy and Bess and why you think Hardy is better, but it has nothing to do with what they'll be in the NFL.

I think you need a better excuse!

[THATHURMANATOR]

I think you miss the point, where you go to school and who you play at school has nothing to do with playing in the NFL. You can either play or you can't. There is a long history of players from small schools playing weak competition becoming pro bowlers and HOF's in the NFL. Jerry Rice, TO and Steve Smith come to mind. Heck look at your own Andre Reed, care to guess where he went to college?

Kutztown, a samll college in Jackson PA how many players made it in the NFL from kutztown? Just one so far, but where Andre went to school didn't stop him from playing great football in the NFL, but it does determine what Bess will do? Typical Bill fan, different set of rules for everything the Bills do then everyone else in the league.

On the other hand you have Big time Heisman trophy winning, Big School football players who fail miserably at the NFL level. It's obvious based on the history of players in the NFL that where a player goes to school has nothing to do with success or failure at the NFL level. I know you are looking for excuses for the success between Hardy and Bess and why you think Hardy is better, but it has nothing to do with what they'll be in the NFL.

I think you need a better excuse!
There are exceptions to every rule. Thanks for pointing out where Andre Reed went to college by the way. I had no idea....

The overwhelming majority of Probowlers/HOFs are higher round picks. To say playing in a Run and shoot offense against lesser talent doesn't inflate a players stats is laughable. He was exposed at the combine talent wise and went undrafted. He will be lucky to even make the Dolphins.

[feelthepain]

There are exceptions to every rule. Thanks for pointing out where Andre Reed went to college by the way. I had no idea....

The overwhelming majority of Probowlers/HOFs are higher round picks. To say playing in a Run and shoot offense against lesser talent doesn't inflate a players stats is laughable. He was exposed at the combine talent wise and went undrafted. He will be lucky to even make the Dolphins.


Well since neither of us can see the future I guess we'll just have to wait and see, but your theory is hardly a guarantee for failure, and the risk/reward clearly favors the Dolphins.

[justasportsfan]

There are exceptions to every rule. Thanks for pointing out where Andre Reed went to college by the way. I had no idea....

The overwhelming majority of Probowlers/HOFs are higher round picks. To say playing in a Run and shoot offense against lesser talent doesn't inflate a players stats is laughable. He was exposed at the combine talent wise and went undrafted. He will be lucky to even make the Dolphins.
took him this long to come up with a comeback and it still made his original post ******ed.

the fins have NO PROVEN WR's and yet Parcells didn't hink much of him that they brought him in as undrafted rookie FA. Nuff said.

[justasportsfan]

Well since neither of us can see the future I guess we'll just have to wait and see, but your theory is hardly a guarantee for failure, and the risk/reward clearly favors the Dolphins.


Actually the high risk/reward favors the bills especially when it comes to Ginn vs. Hardy.

I'll stick Steve Johnson to that undrafted rookie FA you're trying to tell us will be better than Hardy based on college stats.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Well since neither of us can see the future I guess we'll just have to wait and see, but your theory is hardly a guarantee for failure, and the risk/reward clearly favors the Dolphins.
You really are dense. I agreed from the beginning that I can't see the future therefore didn't say for sure that Hardy will be better than Bess. Our risk/reward Hardy over Ginn CLEARLY favors the Bills. WHAT NOW,, WHAT NOW?

[THATHURMANATOR]

Actually the high risk/reward favors the bills especially when it comes to Ginn vs. Hardy.

I'll stick Steve Johnson to that undrafted rookie FA you're trying to tell us will be better than Hardy based on college stats.
Exactly. This is the better argument really. In this situation the factors are more equal. He was comparing apples to oranges almost.

[justasportsfan]

He was comparing apples to oranges almost.
what do you expect ,he can't even distinguish his head from his arse.

[feelthepain]

You really are dense. I agreed from the beginning that I can't see the future therefore didn't say for sure that Hardy will be better than Bess. Our risk/reward Hardy over Ginn CLEARLY favors the Bills. WHAT NOW,, WHAT NOW?

How do you figure? Ginn produced for us under very poor circumstances in 07. What has Hardy done in the NFL? At this point Hardy is a bigger risk then Ginn.

[THATHURMANATOR]

How do you figure? Ginn produced for us under very poor circumstances in 07. What has Hardy done in the NFL? At this point Hardy is a bigger risk then Ginn.
:shakeno:

[justasportsfan]

What has Hardy done in the NFL? At this point Hardy is a bigger risk then Ginn.
haha! You're so predictable. I knew you'd say that but....

....We said the same thing about Trent vs. Beck and you still insisted on Becks college stats. Beck hasn't done much in the NFL vs. Trent .DUH!!!

High risk reward goes to the bills Trent vs. Beck and Henne (combined!!!!). DUH!!!

[THATHURMANATOR]

Ginn had 34 catches for 420 yards
Josh Reed had 51 for 578 yards and I dont think many people lable Reed has highly productive, nor was Reed drafted 9th overall.

[mysticsoto]

Ginn had 34 catches for 420 yards
Josh Reed had 51 for 578 yards and I dont think many people lable Reed has highly productive, nor was Reed drafted 9th overall.

Ouch!!! ZING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[feelthepain]

Ginn had 34 catches for 420 yards
Josh Reed had 51 for 578 yards and I dont think many people lable Reed has highly productive, nor was Reed drafted 9th overall.
Well there you have it, every player in Miami sucks and every player in Buffalo is loaded with potential. Every player in Miami needs to be superstars out of the gate or thet're huge failures, but every Bill players has years to develop based on huge potential. Gotta love how reality works in an alternate universe here in homer land.

[justasportsfan]

Well there you have it, every player in Miami sucks and every player in Buffalo is loaded with potential. Every player in Miami needs to be superstars out of the gate from play one, but every Bill players has years to develop based on huge potential. Gotta love how reality is in some alternate universe here in homer land..

YO, we never said every player miami sucks. You're the one who started making comparisons between Hardy and your undrafted wr and now you're the one crying . GO wipe those tears somewhere else ya crybaby.

No wonder why your fellow finfans make fun of you on a bills MB. You make finfans here look horrible since you're the one who babbles the most.

It's a good thing we are able to establish the difference between finfans and FTP. When you have a disagreement with 1 bills fan you start generalizing what he said as "mommy BILLS FANS say this and that ".

Grow up. You dont speak on behalf of the finfans. I get negged by finfans here when I say you're their leader or that you speak on their behalf.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Well there you have it, every player in Miami sucks and every player in Buffalo is loaded with potential. Every player in Miami needs to be superstars out of the gate or thet're huge failures, but every Bill players has years to develop based on huge potential. Gotta love how reality works in an alternate universe here in homer land.
What the **** are you talking about?

Where did I say Hardy or Reed are star players? You are something else!!!

[feelthepain]

What the **** are you talking about?

Where did I say Hardy or Reed are star players? You are something else!!!

Hmmm, it must be in the same sentence where I said Bess would be a starter and Hardy wouldn't....oh wait, I didn't say that.!!

[THATHURMANATOR]

Hmmm, it must be in the same sentence where I said Bess would be a starter and Hardy wouldn't....oh wait, I didn't say that.!!
I know you didn't say that.

You have a hard time sticking to the point.

[feelthepain]

I know you didn't say that.

You have a hard time sticking to the point.

And you have a hard time because of your pointed head.

[Captain gameboy]

Ginn was drafted because he was the only guy that the previous year's Dolphin 1st round pick, one anonymous Jason Allen, could cover.

That way, they could both look average.

[THATHURMANATOR]

And you have a hard time because of your pointed head.

My head may be fat but it certainly is not pointed.

[John Doe]

Just wondering what Bill fans think of this little tidbit.

After the draft Miami signed WR's Davone Bess. He impressed at rookie camp catching everything thrown his way. He's 5'10 196 pounds and ran a 4.6 in the 40. But don't let the measuables fool you. Here's what he did at Hawaii in his three years.

Davone Bess: finished with a WAC-record 293 catches for 3,610 yards and 41 touchdowns in just three seasons.

James Hardy: became the Hoosiers' all-time receiving leader in touchdowns (36), yards (2,690) and receptions (186).


If Bess makes the final roster or the practice squad, then he will indeed be a good free agent acquisition for the Fins.

His success may hinge on his ability to play on special teams. Certainly Ginn will be the #1 return man. That means that Bess will have to learn to tackle and block - two activities that may be new to him.

[Yasgur's Farm]

Ronnie shared time with Cadillac Williams (also a top 10 pick in the draft) at Auburn.Ronnie was Cadillac's back-up... Yet your team took him #2 in the entire draft.

Then there's that returner you drafted last season at #9.

Or maybe we should have a look at how many 2nd round draft choices the dolls have given up in the past 10 seasons for has been or never was QB's.

There's a reason why the fins have replaced the Cardinals as the perrenial top 10 draft status team.

[Philagape]

Hawaii threw more than twice as much as they ran, and they didn't face Big Ten defenses, to say the least.

[feelthepain]

Ronnie was Cadillac's back-up... Yet your team took him #2 in the entire draft.

Then there's that returner you drafted last season at #9.

Or maybe we should have a look at how many 2nd round draft choices the dolls have given up in the past 10 seasons for has been or never was QB's.

There's a reason why the fins have replaced the Cardinals as the perrenial top 10 draft status team.

Just as there's a reason the Bills are the worst team in the division over the last 10 years or for most of their existence and why they haven't seen the playoffs since 99. Stop pointing fingers man, you have nothing to talk about. Your team is and has been a joke for a very long time.

[feelthepain]

Hawaii threw more than twice as much as they ran, and they didn't face Big Ten defenses, to say the least.

Again did that stop Adre Reed from being a big time talent in the NFL?? He went to Kutztown...last I checked, Kutztown didn't face a Big Ten Defense either, how in the world did Andre ever make it in the NFL??

[Yasgur's Farm]

Just as there's a reason the Bills are the worst team in the division over the last 10 years or for most of their existence and why they haven't seen the playoffs since 99. Stop pointing fingers man, you have nothing to talk about. Your team is and has been a joke for a very long time.Perhaps... But I'm not the doll fan trolling a Bills forum.

[Goobylal]

Hold on a second here. Bess looked good in rookie camp. That means almost nothing since it's more a reflection of the rookies in camp than anything else (the Dols didn't draft a CB, so it's not like he was facing worthwhile competition). Few of us are predicting greatness for Hardy based on his excellent performance in rookie camp.

Now it's possible that Bess could be another Wes Welker. But given Hardy's 6'5" 220# frame and 4.45 speed, compared to Bess' 5'10" 196# frame and 4.60 speed, you're not comparing the same type of player for starters, and both faced much different levels of competition in college. Furthermore, name the last good WR to come from Hawaii, especially under June Jones.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Ok I have had enough of this nonsense. I will bet yo 40 THOUSAND Zone bucks that Bess doesn't even get 10 catches this year. ( If he even makes the team)

[feelthepain]

Perhaps... But I'm not the doll fan trolling a Bills forum.

So you see something wrong with having a debate with rival fans? There are members of this site that are members of every Dolphin site I visit. It doesn't bother me cause I could care less what they think of my team, however they are free to join and their opinion is no more or less important then my opinion. Opinions are just opinions. I think you need to come to grips with that concept.

[feelthepain]

Ok I have had enough of this nonsense. I will bet yo 40 THOUSAND Zone bucks that Bess doesn't even get 10 catches this year. ( If he even makes the team)

Maybe you should bet with Justa, she's still trying to prove she's a man and she thinks bettting is the way to do that. I got news for her, she's still a girl. Nevertheless she's always willing to bet, I'm sure you'll have no problem making a bet with her. Enjoy!

[Goobylal]

Ok I have had enough of this nonsense. I will bet yo 40 THOUSAND Zone bucks that Bess doesn't even get 10 catches this year. ( If he even makes the team)
That's not a good bet for you. I mean, who else do they have besides Ginn and Wilford?

And thinking about it, I agree with the poster who said that a better comparison with Bess would be Steve Johnson, a 7th round pick for the Bills who will cost maybe $25K more than Bess. But even still, Johnson is 6'2" 210# and runs a 4.58 40-yard.

[mysticsoto]

Maybe you should bet with Justa, she's still trying to prove she's a man and she thinks bettting is the way to do that. I got news for her, she's still a girl. Nevertheless she's always willing to bet, I'm sure you'll have no problem making a bet with her. Enjoy!

Translation: I don't have the cojones to back up the smack that I talk...