Is the Marcus Stroud trade Donahoe-esque?

[X-Era]

Dont get me wrong, I am a huge fan of this trade. But it occured to me that their are some striking similarities to some of Donahoes moves. How dissimilar is trading for Stroud to the trade for Drew Bledsoe? Both we no longer wanted by their former team, both were said to be pro-bowl caliper players. We no what happened with Drew. Forget the debate on him, what about Vincent? Lawyer Milloy? Did we trade for damaged goods? a player thats going to only get worse instead of better? I really hope not. thoughts?

[theanswer74]

Say what you want about Donahoe, he built a top 5 defense and a couple pretty good offenses, his teams just could never put everything together.

[ParanoidAndroid]

Nope. Apples to oranges and neither Vincent or Milloy were trades. Donahoe actually did a decent job on free agents except his own (Pat Williams). What Donahoe was horrible at was drafting.

[ParanoidAndroid]

Say what you want about Donahoe, he built a top 5 defense and a couple pretty good offenses, his teams just could never put everything together.

Get Bledsoe an O-line, replace Peerless and that offense would have been decent consistently.

[X-Era]

Get Bledsoe an O-line, replace Peerless and that offense would have been decent consistently. Maybe.

[The Answer]

Dont get me wrong, I am a huge fan of this trade. But it occured to me that their are some striking similarities to some of Donahoes moves. How dissimilar is trading for Stroud to the trade for Drew Bledsoe? Both we no longer wanted by their former team, both were said to be pro-bowl caliper players. We no what happened with Drew. Forget the debate on him, what about Vincent? Lawyer Milloy? Did we trade for damaged goods? a player thats going to only get worse instead of better? I really hope not. thoughts?

Believe me - if it wasn't for Tom Brady coming out of nowhere, the Pats would have never let Bledsoe go. It's what you call 'stupid lucky'.

Same deal with Meier's emergence in Jacksonville - Stroud became expendable since he is aging and coming off injury. Plus they are right behind Minny as one of the more deeper teams in the league at the DT position.

~The Answer

[John Doe]

The big difference in the trades at first glance is that the Bills gave up a #1 for Bledsoe to a team within its own division. The Stroud trade was a 3rd and a 5th to a team that is not within the Bills' division.

[Mitchy moo]

The big difference in the trades at first glance is that the Bills gave up a #1 for Bledsoe to a team within its own division. The Stroud trade was a 3rd and a 5th to a team that is not within the Bills' division.

It seems like we play them nearly every year though.

[feelthepain]

Dont get me wrong, I am a huge fan of this trade. But it occured to me that their are some striking similarities to some of Donahoes moves. How dissimilar is trading for Stroud to the trade for Drew Bledsoe? Both we no longer wanted by their former team, both were said to be pro-bowl caliper players. We no what happened with Drew. Forget the debate on him, what about Vincent? Lawyer Milloy? Did we trade for damaged goods? a player thats going to only get worse instead of better? I really hope not. thoughts?
According to some here, every team in the league would have been thrilled to sign Stroud. I said the Stroud move was questionable based on what he's done the last 2 years, drug suspension and the fact that Jacksonville didn't want him anymore. My opinion wasn't malicious or to stir up trouble. I was simply looking at all the facts...what do think the response was?

[X-Era]

[quote=feelthepain]According to some here, every team in the league would have been thrilled to sign Stroud. I said the Stroud move was questionable based on what he's done the last 2 years, drug suspension and the fact that Jacksonville didn't want him anymore. My opinion wasn't malicious or to stir up trouble. I was simply looking at all the facts...what do think the response was?[/quote

Like it or not, a Bills fan can make that question fly, and Fins fan cant. Thats just the cold hard facts.

I value your opinion, and welcome all responses from you, but if your looking for support, your on the wrong board.

[Goobylal]

According to some here, every team in the league would have been thrilled to sign Stroud. I said the Stroud move was questionable based on what he's done the last 2 years, drug suspension and the fact that Jacksonville didn't want him anymore. My opinion wasn't malicious or to stir up trouble. I was simply looking at all the facts...what do think the response was?
LOL! Sure your response was purely non-malicious or not to stir up trouble. It's not like you've tried that before, or that as a fan of a rival team, you don't want Stroud to fail.

I won't speak for others, but I acknowledged that Stroud's injury history is a concern, but his steroid suspension doesn't worry me at all. Anytime the ankle of a guy weighing 300+# is involved, there's cause for concern. But the risk was worth it.

[Jan Reimers]

No.

[mayotm]

According to some here, every team in the league would have been thrilled to sign Stroud. I said the Stroud move was questionable based on what he's done the last 2 years, drug suspension and the fact that Jacksonville didn't want him anymore. My opinion wasn't malicious or to stir up trouble. I was simply looking at all the facts...what do think the response was?Haven't we already established that you're smarter than everybody here?

[feelthepain]

[quote=feelthepain]According to some here, every team in the league would have been thrilled to sign Stroud. I said the Stroud move was questionable based on what he's done the last 2 years, drug suspension and the fact that Jacksonville didn't want him anymore. My opinion wasn't malicious or to stir up trouble. I was simply looking at all the facts...what do think the response was?[/quote

Like it or not, a Bills fan can make that question fly, and Fins fan cant. Thats just the cold hard facts.

I value your opinion, and welcome all responses from you, but if your looking for support, your on the wrong board.

Who cares about support? I understand where I'm posting. I either make a valid point or I don't. Is it my fault some Bill fans are to immature to engage in mature conversation? I think to many threads here are destroyed because some Bill fans can't post without trash talking. If I came here and every single post I participate in I was simply starting trouble for no reason, I wouldn't have over 4,000 posts. I try to keep things civil, but some here just refuse to allow others to question anything the Bills do simply because they're not Bill fans. That's simply immature and ridiculous.

[feelthepain]

LOL! Sure your response was purely non-malicious or not to stir up trouble. It's not like you've tried that before, or that as a fan of a rival team, you don't want Stroud to fail.

Then I suggest you go back and re-read the thread. I was simply pointing out the Stroud deal was questionable, I've also made it clear I never said Stoud would not succeed in Buffalo. I only said he has a lot to prove. If you find something malicious about that then you're trying real hard.

[justasportsfan]

According to some here, every team in the league would have been thrilled to sign Stroud. I said the Stroud move was questionable based on what he's done the last 2 years, drug suspension and the fact that Jacksonville didn't want him anymore. My opinion wasn't malicious or to stir up trouble. I was simply looking at all the facts...what do think the response was?
you are right. Stroud could become a bust just like the fins could end up 1-15 again and the head coach could end up being worse than cam and end up leaving the fins for a college gig .Beck could blow again just like last year , Brown could get injured again , your OL could suck again . It's all happened before.

[feelthepain]

I try to keep things civil, but some here just refuse to allow others to question anything the Bills do simply because they're not Bill fans. That's simply immature and ridiculous.


you are right. Stroud could become a bust just like the fins could end up 1-15 again and the head coach could end up being worse than cam and end up leaving the fins for a college gig .Beck could blow again just like last year , Brown could get injured again , your OL could suck again . It's all happened before.

I rest my case!!

[justasportsfan]

I rest my case!!
you agree. Thanks ! :up:

[feelthepain]

you agree. Thanks ! :up:

....and it continues!

[justasportsfan]

....and it continues!
what I said was football related and was right there with your logic. Don't get so sensitive.

[theanswer74]

According to some here, every team in the league would have been thrilled to sign Stroud. I said the Stroud move was questionable based on what he's done the last 2 years, drug suspension and the fact that Jacksonville didn't want him anymore. My opinion wasn't malicious or to stir up trouble. I was simply looking at all the facts...what do think the response was?

And I bet your not worried that Ronnie Brown tore his ACL last season?

Over on Dolphin boards they seem to think Ronnie will be the same guy.

[Goobylal]

Then I suggest you go back and re-read the thread. I was simply pointing out the Stroud deal was questionable, I've also made it clear I never said Stoud would not succeed in Buffalo. I only said he has a lot to prove. If you find something malicious about that then you're trying real hard.
Remember our "discussions" about Culpepper after the Dolphins traded for him? You didn't want to hear any of it.

[feelthepain]

And I bet your not worried that Ronnie Brown tore his ACL last season?

Over on Dolphin boards they seem to think Ronnie will be the same guy.

We didn't trade for Ronnie knowing he had injury problems and drug issues. We drafted a healthy young very high character RB out of Auburn. So I'm not exactly sure how the two situations are even close to the same thing.

[feelthepain]

Remember our "discussions" about Culpepper after the Dolphins traded for him? You didn't want to hear any of it. I never said Daunte would be a 100%, game 1 and I never argued his health wouldn't be an issue. Most of the discussion about Daunte was his success post Randy Moss. Which I porved by showing Dauntes most successful season had little to do with Moss.

[Jeff1220]

We didn't trade for Ronnie knowing he had injury problems and drug issues. We drafted a healthy young very high character RB out of Auburn. So I'm not exactly sure how the two situations are even close to the same thing.
How about Ricky then?

[theanswer74]

We didn't trade for Ronnie knowing he had injury problems and drug issues. We drafted a healthy young very high character RB out of Auburn. So I'm not exactly sure how the two situations are even close to the same thing.

lol, what does trading have anything to do with it?

Both guys are coming off serious injuries? Stroud actually came back from it last season, but had a different injury last season, which happens a lot the year after a serious injury.

Ronnie Brown is coming off an ACL injury, which is the most serious injury for any player, especially a RB.

You saying Stroud has injury problems, if you cant see the point Im making then just don't reply to it because I think it's clear.

If Steroids made Stroud a good player, then obviously he wont be a good player for us, we will see. We were a desperate team and needed to take the risk.

Stroud is besides the point though, your taking shots at Stroud's injury concerns but not recognizing your best player also has injury concerns.

Its called a double standard. Dont worry, Im used to it with all this Losman vs Edwards stuff.

[feelthepain]

lol, what does trading have anything to do with it?

Both guys are coming off serious injuries? Stroud actually came back from it last season, but had a different injury last season, which happens a lot the year after a serious injury.

Ronnie Brown is coming off an ACL injury, which is the most serious injury for any player, especially a RB.

You saying Stroud has injury problems, if you cant see the point Im making then just don't reply to it because I think it's clear.

If Steroids made Stroud a good player, then obviously he wont be a good player for us, we will see. We were a desperate team and needed to take the risk.

Stroud is besides the point though, your taking shots at Stroud's injury concerns but not recognizing your best player also has injury concerns.

Its called a double standard. Dont worry, Im used to it with all this Losman vs Edwards stuff.

What does a trade have to do with it? Are you serious? I'm not even going to explain how ridiculous a question that is.

[feelthepain]

How about Ricky then?

What about him? He's fine, he's healthy and ready to go. He's our 2nd string RB, probably the most talented second string RB in the league. If you're talking about 04? Well, we've had great times with Ricky and bad times with him. At this point anything negative with him is in the past, even if he slips up again it won't matter. He's not the feature back and we'll be fine with or without him. I honestly don't know where this questioning is going, but Stroud is the topic not Ronnie or Ricky, Daunte or whatever other Dolphin player you Bill fans want to throw into this thread. It's about Stroud, and him being a risk based on his injury history and drug use. Please stay on topic.

[Goobylal]

What about him? He's fine, he's healthy and ready to go. He's our 2nd string RB, probably the most talented second string RB in the league. If you're talking about 04? Well, we've had great times with Ricky and bad times with him. At this point anything negative with him is in the past, even if he slips up again it won't matter. He's not the feature back and we'll be fine with or without him. I honestly don't know where this questioning is going, but Stroud is the topic not Ronnie or Ricky, Daunte or whatever other Dolphin player you Bill fans want to throw into this thread. It's about Stroud, and him being a risk based on his injury history and drug use. Please stay on topic.
The point was that MOST players acquired in trades are question marks, just like Daunte was. Whether Stroud produces remains to be seen. Unless you have a crystal ball.

[theanswer74]

What does a trade have to do with it? Are you serious? I'm not even going to explain how ridiculous a question that is.

How does it?

Because we traded for Stroud, that makes his injury worse? Because you didn't trade for Ronnie Brown his injury isn't that bad?

I really don't know what your saying. IMO it has no relevance.

Are you saying if nothing was wrong with Stroud the Jags wouldn't have traded him? Is that true for all the DT's traded? How about your starting NT? He was injured last year as well.

[feelthepain]

How does it?

Because we traded for Stroud, that makes his injury worse? Because you didn't trade for Ronnie Brown his injury isn't that bad?

I really don't know what your saying. IMO it has no relevance.

Are you saying if nothing was wrong with Stroud the Jags wouldn't have traded him? Is that true for all the DT's traded? How about your starting NT? He was injured last year as well.

OK, enjoy whatever world you're in right now. I'm done with the trying to understand whatever it is you're talking about.

[feelthepain]

The point was that MOST players acquired in trades are question marks, just like Daunte was. Whether Stroud produces remains to be seen. Unless you have a crystal ball.
But they're even more of question mark when they come with injuries and drug issues. The reason I called out Stroud for being a question mark is because a fan or two here was pointing out what a huge upgrade he "IS" and how every team in the league would have loved to have signed him. It then turns into, what about Daunte, what about Ronnie, what about Ricky..this thread as with many, has gotten way off track. Ironically, the one who called Stroud an instant upgrade, isn't even posting in this thread.

[theanswer74]

OK, enjoy whatever world you're in right now. I'm done with the trying to understand whatever it is you're talking about.
lol, good answer.

[yordad]

Two counter questions.

What did we trade for Bledsoe?

What did we trade for Stroud?

[jamze132]

What about him? He's fine, he's healthy and ready to go. He's our 2nd string RB, probably the most talented second string RB in the league. If you're talking about 04? Well, we've had great times with Ricky and bad times with him. At this point anything negative with him is in the past, even if he slips up again it won't matter. He's not the feature back and we'll be fine with or without him. I honestly don't know where this questioning is going, but Stroud is the topic not Ronnie or Ricky, Daunte or whatever other Dolphin player you Bill fans want to throw into this thread. It's about Stroud, and him being a risk based on his injury history and drug use. Please stay on topic.
I saw Ricky Williams on Pros Vs Joes. He looked pretty good getting stoped by an out of shape fat guy.

[jamze132]

But they're even more of question mark when they come with injuries and drug issues. The reason I called out Stroud for being a question mark is because a fan or two here was pointing out what a huge upgrade he "IS" and how every team in the league would have loved to have signed him. It then turns into, what about Daunte, what about Ronnie, what about Ricky..this thread as with many, has gotten way off track. Ironically, the one who called Stroud an instant upgrade, isn't even posting in this thread.

Marcus Stroud is an instant upgrade at DT for the Buffalo Bills. He is replacing larry Tripplett. How can anyone with a brain not see that is an instant upgade?

[alohabillsfan]

To sum this up...
Bledsoe cost us a 1st round pick (the only one we had)
Stroud cost us a 3rd and a 5th (extra picks from the Mcgahee trade), which allows us to pick Mclevin!

Stroud was suspended for an OTC supplement, as previously discussed here where I live in Jacksonville.

Answer, Mier is older than Stroud.

To peps who say it's risky to invest a 3rd and a 5th on a proven pro bowl caliber player... whatever... I would much rather have a RB coming off an ACL injury that I picked with the 2nd overall pick! (P.S. Marshawn Lynch is so much better!!!)

In summary, I believe this is much better value, and Donohoe would have given away more to get him!

[feelthepain]

I would much rather have a RB coming off an ACL injury that I picked with the 2nd overall pick! (P.S. Marshawn Lynch is so much better!!!)


Marshawn Lynch is "so much better" then Ronnie Brown? Wow, I don't agree with that at all.

[theanswer74]

Marshawn Lynch is "so much better" then Ronnie Brown? Wow, I don't agree with that at all.

You should, Ronnie Brown was dragging his leg around last season.

I honestly don't understand why you throw away the ACL injury like its nothing.

[feelthepain]

You should, Ronnie Brown was dragging his leg around last season.

I honestly don't understand why you throw away the ACL injury like its nothing.

I didn't realize I was, what does Ronnies injury have to do with Stroud? This post is about Stroud.

[theanswer74]

I didn't realize I was, what does Ronnies injury have to do with Stroud? This post is about Stroud.

Because you are so sure he is still really good.

Marshawn Lynch is "so much better" then Ronnie Brown? Wow, I don't agree with that at all.

Wow, your dodging these injury questions like Ronnie Brown dodged tacklers before his ACL injury.

[YardRat]

Player upgrades are all about potential and nothing is proven until they take the field.

Stroud potentially is a huge upgrade for the Bills d-line, and the trade in no way IMO is 'Donahue-esque'...Yes, he's a name player at a position of need, but as others have mentioned the price tag to acquire him was more reasonable regarding risk/reward.

[DraftBoy]

First off stay on topic of this trade and Marcus Stroud, this is not about the Dolphins, hell even FTP was staying on topic for once or attempting to.

Secondy yes this trade is very Donahoe-eque but that does not mean the result will be the same. At least we better hope not.

[feelthepain]

Player upgrades are all about potential and nothing is proven until they take the field.

Stroud potentially is a huge upgrade for the Bills d-line, and the trade in no way IMO is 'Donahue-esque'...Yes, he's a name player at a position of need, but as others have mentioned the price tag to acquire him was more reasonable regarding risk/reward.

How is Strouds potential huge? He's not done much the last 2 years. He's never played on a Defense that wasn't one of the best in the league. You have to take into account Stroud isn't going to a defense that is very good.

[jmb1099]

I never said Daunte would be a 100%, game 1 and I never argued his health wouldn't be an issue. Most of the discussion about Daunte was his success post Randy Moss. Which I porved by showing Dauntes most successful season had little to do with Moss.
You must have forgotten to take your meds again. I'm not going to bother looking up how many times you argued Culpeppers health wouldn't be an issue, it would be pointless. Admit that Culpepper was a mistake, admit you made a mistake and move on. Lots of us have had to do that with Losman (present company included) and Bledsoe. You'll feel better and you won't have to keep trying to rewrite what you previously said.

Now as far as Stroud goes... I think you make a very valid point. There is no doubt this is a risk and there is no doubt that this could flop. Obviously we hope it doesn't, but if it does in fact flop there were certainly signs pointing to that being a potential reality. However, it could be a very successful move. It all depends upon which version of Stroud shows up. The ball is in his court.

Finally, I'm not going to question your motives for making the stroud comments. Could be good football talk, you have demonstrated that you can engage in a thread with decent input about 2% of the time. The problem is the other 98% of the time is usually a steady stream of FTP instigation and then self pity when called out for it. My rough estimate is that out of the 4000 posts, 90% of those posts is crying about how no one respects you here. Get over it. Its not because you root for an opposing team, its not because you say negative things about the bills, it has nothing to do with any of that. To get respect you have to give it and the times you've done that many here have shown appreciation. But when you instigate, say outlandish things, mock, and accuse, it is only logical to expect people to call you out. In fact, if you think about it, you're being treated in the same way anyone else is who does such things. It isn't your team, it isn't your questioning of the state of our team, its you. And for the record this isn't smack. The comment about the meds was and I seriously considered removing it from the post, but to say you never said his health was an issue, seriously what else should anyone think when you make comments like that?

[X-Era]

How does it?

Because we traded for Stroud, that makes his injury worse? Because you didn't trade for Ronnie Brown his injury isn't that bad?

I really don't know what your saying. IMO it has no relevance.

Are you saying if nothing was wrong with Stroud the Jags wouldn't have traded him? Is that true for all the DT's traded? How about your starting NT? He was injured last year as well.

Thats an interesting point.

The Bills found Stroud to be healthy, he wasn't injured.

However, both the Jags wanted him out and he wanted to be out. Is that a potentially bad situation for us? Can a player go to a new team without ever having a relapse of the "unhapppy camper" syndrome?

By the way, Stroud wasnt taking drugs. More properly, he wasnt taking illegal drugs, and he wasnt taking steroids. He was taking stuff that the league bans.

[ddaryl]

Get Bledsoe an O-line, replace Peerless and that offense would have been decent consistently.

well I can't confirm or deny this thought...

However it was blatantly obvious that TD didn't value the OL or the DL enough.

The 1st thing Marv did when he took over was ot gut the team of pretenders and aging vets... and then moved the money over into OL upgrades.

The 1st thing the new FO did after Marv stepeed down was to address the other line with DL additions.

and I think most of us feel that the team has a better shot because of these moves

[feelthepain]

Finally, I'm not going to question your motives for making the stroud comments. Could be good football talk, you have demonstrated that you can engage in a thread with decent input about 2% of the time. The problem is the other 98% of the time is usually a steady stream of FTP instigation and then self pity when called out for it. My rough estimate is that out of the 4000 posts, 90% of those posts is crying about how no one respects you here.

Crap, crap and more crap. Isn't funny how you only see what I write? As if I just get into a pissing match with myself. This is the one constant theme. It's never the Bill fans. If you see me engaed in banter, I'll promise you 99.9% of the time it's because a Bill fan reads what I write and rather then accepting the fact that what I say has to do with actual facts even though it may not make the Bills look awesome, they get all pissy and the first thing they post as a retort is an insult, then it just escaltes.

If you chose to believe it's all me that's your choice, but it's not, not even close. I'm supposed to be all respectful and tell Bill fans how great their team is? Otherwise I'm just starting trouble? Do you realize how ridiculously childish and shortsighted that is? If the Bills were as good as the Pats and I was trashing your team, I could see the fans thinking I'm just a bitter jealous fan. But the Bills have been a bad team for a very long time. To hear Bill fans call their team a team on the rise or a playoff team or anything close to that is not only unrealistic, there's no proof whatsoever it's true, not till they actually prove they are. So should everyone drink the koolaide or else?? Maybe you should consider what's really going on instead of foucusing on my realistic view of the Bills posting an opinion about it.

[madness]

Bledsoe would have had a great career here... if we continued piping in the defensive calls like he was use to.

The Buffalo Bills fall short once again. :shakeno:

[Pinkerton Security]

unless stroud gets injured and is out for 1/3 or more of the year, i consider him an upgrade.

even if he is a shell of his former self, i consider it an upgrade.

this guy WAS a pro-bowl player. 3 times. he wasnt a product of his environment, he was a reason for it. sure he had another great dt next to him. but the D wouldnt have been nearly as good with some other shmuck in there.

dont understand how some cant see that he still has a ton of potentially great play left in him, and worst case, have some solid football left. tell me this man cant even be on par with larry triplett. that would be pretty much the worst case scenario.

[justasportsfan]

How is Strouds potential huge? He's not done much the last 2 years. He's never played on a Defense that wasn't one of the best in the league. You have to take into account Stroud isn't going to a defense that is very good.


:rofl:

How was Culpeckers potential huge when you kept talking about how he was a probowler prior to his injury , blah,blah,blah. He also wasn't entering joing an offense that was very good.

Now all of a sudden when it comes to a bills hire , you're questioning the very same situation that Culp was in?

Don't pretend to being objective when it comes to the bills because all you keep trying to do is downplay everything we do but when it comes to the fins everything they do is a great move. :coocoo:

[feelthepain]

. he wasnt a product of his environment, he was a reason for it. sure he had another great dt next to him.


Really? I think if you did a little research over the last 5 years, Rob Meier (DT) John Henderson (DT) Bobby McCray (DE) have all produced more or the same as Stroud on the Jaguars Defense. The Jags have been as high as 2 and no lower then 12 since 2003. Their Defense as a whole has been very, very good. Looking at the stats Stroud was basically the same as Miere and McCray but Henderson was the real machine on the Jags Dline having 2 more total sacks and nearly 50 more tkls, in 5 less games played and one less season in the league.

Again I'm not saying Stroud isn't an upgrade over what the Bills had, I'm not saying he won't be successful in Buffalo. I'm simply looking at the situation based on the facts. His declining stats the last three years, His injuries and his suspension all play a part in the evaluation of what he "could be" in Buffalo. I don't think based on the facts Stroud is this huge addition to the Bills defense the Bill fans want to believe. I think where the problem is, is when some fans over estimate a plyer and their actual contribution to the league. Stroud hasn't been a really dominant DT since 2004.

[feelthepain]

:rofl:

How was Culpeckers potential huge when you kept talking about how he was a probowler prior to his injury , blah,blah,blah. He also wasn't entering joing an offense that was very good.

Now all of a sudden when it comes to a bills hire , you're questioning the very same situation that Culp was in?

Don't pretend to being objective when it comes to the bills because all you keep trying to do is downplay everything we do but when it comes to the fins everything they do is a great move. :coocoo:

We signed Daunte Culpepper in 2005, his best season was 2003 a season that in many ways was one of the best seasons ever produced from the QB position in NFL history statistically. in 2004 Daunte's team was not nearly the same team it was in 03 and his numbers reflected that plus he suffered a triple ligament tear in his knee midway through 04.

Strouds Best season was between 2003 and 2004 his numbers have been declining since, this is now 2008. If you can't see the difference it's because you don't want to nothing else.

[Seventeen&0]

Wow, your dodging these injury questions like Ronnie Brown dodged tacklers before his ACL injury.

OK, I have to chime in on this one... Dude, Ronnie was leading the league in yards before his injury and having a huge year. Your comment doesn't hold water and is completely wrong!

[Pinkerton Security]

Really? I think if you did a little research over the last 5 years, Rob Meier (DT) John Henderson (DT) Bobby McCray (DE) have all produced more or the same as Stroud on the Jaguars Defense. The Jags have been as high as 2 and no lower then 12 since 2003. Their Defense as a whole has been very, very good. Looking at the stats Stroud was basically the same as Miere and McCray but Henderson was the real machine on the Jags Dline having 2 more total sacks and nearly 50 more tkls, in 5 less games played and one less season in the league.

Again I'm not saying Stroud isn't an upgrade over what the Bills had, I'm not saying he won't be successful in Buffalo. I'm simply looking at the situation based on the facts. His declining stats the last three years, His injuries and his suspension all play a part in the evaluation of what he "could be" in Buffalo. I don't think based on the facts Stroud is this huge addition to the Bills defense the Bill fans want to believe. I think where the problem is, is when some fans over estimate a plyer and their actual contribution to the league. Stroud hasn't been a really dominant DT since 2004.

say i agree with everything you say here, isnt he still big upgrade over triplett? i think so.

[RockStar36]

Get Bledsoe an O-line, replace Peerless and that offense would have been decent consistently.

Why replace Peerless? Wasn't he good with Bledsoe?

[Pinkerton Security]

Why replace Peerless? Wasn't he good with Bledsoe?

i was gonna mention something like that, they were tearing it up for half a year and then kindof fell off, but they were good for a bit.

[Goobylal]

But they're even more of question mark when they come with injuries and drug issues. The reason I called out Stroud for being a question mark is because a fan or two here was pointing out what a huge upgrade he "IS" and how every team in the league would have loved to have signed him. It then turns into, what about Daunte, what about Ronnie, what about Ricky..this thread as with many, has gotten way off track. Ironically, the one who called Stroud an instant upgrade, isn't even posting in this thread.
Again, Stroud's "drug issues" don't concern me in the least since it didn't involve an addictive substance. I'd be willing to even bet zone bucks with you that he doesn't get suspended again.

As for being an upgrade, again if he's healthy, and the Bills' team physicians cleared him medically, he'll be an upgrade over Tripplett, even at 75%. But there's no guarantee that he'll remain healthy, and this is where the biggest question mark lies. I have no worries about his attitude, motivation, or work ethic.

And sorry but it's acceptable to bring other examples, like Culpepper, into the discussion when it's analogous. I told you, in a non-trollish manner, that Culpepper wouldn't be anything for the Dols because of the factors you cite against Stroud, minus the drug suspension. You got uber-defensive and started calling me names, and ultimately I was proven correct.

[Goobylal]

We signed Daunte Culpepper in 2005, his best season was 2003 a season that in many ways was one of the best seasons ever produced from the QB position in NFL history statistically. in 2004 Daunte's team was not nearly the same team it was in 03 and his numbers reflected that plus he suffered a triple ligament tear in his knee midway through 04.
You're a year early with your numbers. The Dols signed Culpepper prior to the 2006 season and he had his best season in 2004, his last season with Moss. During his final season with Minny, after Moss left and before he got hurt, he was playing poorly. Hence the reason I questioned his true ability without Moss, who he'd had all of his career. The injury only added another reason why he'd be a bust.

Strouds Best season was between 2003 and 2004 his numbers have been declining since, this is now 2008. If you can't see the difference it's because you don't want to nothing else.
Stroud, while he didn't have the stats, made the Pro Bowl in 2005. And he started all 16 games and the Jags' defense was ranked 6th in PPG allowed. So he must have been doing something right. Don't get hung-up on tackles and sacks with DT's. Those are more for DE's.

[justasportsfan]

We signed Daunte Culpepper in 2005, his best season was 2003 a season that in many ways was one of the best seasons ever produced from the QB position in NFL history statistically. in 2004 Daunte's team was not nearly the same team it was in 03 and his numbers reflected that plus he suffered a triple ligament tear in his knee midway through 04.

Strouds Best season was between 2003 and 2004 his numbers have been declining since, this is now 2008. If you can't see the difference it's because you don't want to nothing else.
:rofl:

No matter what stats you put up with Daunte he still SUCKED as a FIN. So my argument is, I don't care what he did in Minny, he made you look like an idiot after all the praise you gave him while in Minny, But when it's a bills hire, he gets no praise from you based on what he did in the past.


http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/stats?playerId=1762

You just proved youre clueless.

Checkmate.



Has Daunte replied to your love letters yet? :snicker:

[feelthepain]

And sorry but it's acceptable to bring other examples, like Culpepper, into the discussion when it's analogous. I told you, in a non-trollish manner, that Culpepper wouldn't be anything for the Dols because of the factors you cite against Stroud, minus the drug suspension. You got uber-defensive and started calling me names, and ultimately I was proven correct.
How were yopu proven correct? Daunte was a Dolphin (1) year. It had nothing to do with his talent, but because we changed HC's. Had Saban satyed in Miami Daunte having another year in our system and getting comfrotable who knows what maight have been. You can obviously relate, as Trent Edwards has taken JP Losmans spot because the FO that drafted Edwards and the FO that drafted JP were not the same. The fact that JP is a horrible football player doesn't keep him from being released, but it keeps him from being traded or starting. Bottom line, you can't look at the Daunte situation and think it's anywhere near the same situation as the Stroud situation. They're not even close.

[Goobylal]

How were yopu proven correct? Daunte was a Dolphin (1) year. It had nothing to do with his talent, but because we changed HC's. Had Saban satyed in Miami Daunte having another year in our system and getting comfrotable who knows what maight have been. You can obviously relate, as Trent Edwards has taken JP Losmans spot because the FO that drafted Edwards and the FO that drafted JP were not the same. The fact that JP is a horrible football player doesn't keep him from being released, but it keeps him from being traded or starting. Bottom line, you can't look at the Daunte situation and think it's anywhere near the same situation as the Stroud situation. There not even close.
The similarities are this: coming off injury and going to a worse defense/offense. Stroud also has a suspension for a banned substance, but IMHO he's no more a concern to be re-suspended than Culpepper was at risk of going on more sex boats. We'll see whether Stroud was a product of Henderson like Culpepper was a product of Moss and if his injury hinders him, like it did Culpepper.

[feelthepain]

The similarities are this: coming off injury and going to a worse defense/offense. Stroud also has a suspension for a banned substance, but IMHO he's no more a concern to be re-suspended than Culpepper was at risk of going on more sex boats. We'll see whether Stroud was a product of Henderson like Culpepper was a product of Moss and if his injury hinders him, like it did Culpepper.

1) Culpepper was never suspended for drugs.

2) The jury in the boat scandal legal trial and the league cleared Daunte of any wrong doing.

3) Culpepper was a 1.5 years removed from his best season ever....not 4 years removed.

4) Daunte came back to play to soon from a triple ligament tear and it did more damage to his future then if he would have taken a year or year and a half off.

5) Randy Moss benefitted more from Daunte, then Daunte did from Randy. Dauntes best season as a pro, was Randy's worst as a Viking. In Daunte's best season as a pro he had 110.9 QB rating, completed 69.2% of his passes, threw 39 TD's and only 11 int's. That happens to be one of the the best seasons any pro QB has had. Stroud never, ever had a season anywhere near as good as a DT that Culpepper had as a QB.

Even with all that, this thread IS NOT about Daunte Culpepper, it's about Marcus Stroud! A player that's been basically the same type of player that his teammates, Bobby McCray and Rob Meire have been, (according to their stats anyway). Strouds numbers are no more impressive then either of those players.

McCray, Henderson and Mirer have all produced very good numbers in Jacksonville more so then Stroud the last 4 years. There was no HC change or FO shake up in Jacksonville to stir the pot or to cause a change due to philosphy, as there was in Minn with Brad Childress and Daunte Culpepper .

Also there was no QB on the Vikes roster that took Dauntes job or did a better job while he was there, so Minn didn't trade Daunte because they had a better replacement. However you could make that argument in Jacksonville with them moving Stroud.

There are so many differences in the two situations it shouldn't even be a discussion in this thread, but some Bill fans think everything the Bills do is the greatest things ever and if someone even questions the move(s), some Bill fans aren't mature enough to understand not everyone see's greatness and they get pissy.

I't not like Stoud is coming off his 5th straight pro bowl selection in just his 6th season as a pro, has been an injury free and a model citizen and I'm just trying to knock the move because I'm worried he will tear it up in Buffalo. I think I've shown more then just a little proof Stroud is anything but the former player he once was.

[jmb1099]

Crap, crap and more crap. Isn't funny how you only see what I write? As if I just get into a pissing match with myself. This is the one constant theme. It's never the Bill fans. If you see me engaed in banter, I'll promise you 99.9% of the time it's because a Bill fan reads what I write and rather then accepting the fact that what I say has to do with actual facts even though it may not make the Bills look awesome, they get all pissy and the first thing they post as a retort is an insult, then it just escaltes.

If you chose to believe it's all me that's your choice, but it's not, not even close. I'm supposed to be all respectful and tell Bill fans how great their team is? Otherwise I'm just starting trouble? Do you realize how ridiculously childish and shortsighted that is? If the Bills were as good as the Pats and I was trashing your team, I could see the fans thinking I'm just a bitter jealous fan. But the Bills have been a bad team for a very long time. To hear Bill fans call their team a team on the rise or a playoff team or anything close to that is not only unrealistic, there's no proof whatsoever it's true, not till they actually prove they are. So should everyone drink the koolaide or else?? Maybe you should consider what's really going on instead of foucusing on my realistic view of the Bills posting an opinion about it.
You can disagree and still be respectful. Differing view points make the zone an interesting place to post. So again, its not about having a different view or posting opinions that aren't favorable to the Bills that is the problem with you. You have indicated that you post to set us all straight, to bring a realistic view of the Bills. Two things, first, your idea of realistic is seriously tainted considering the delusional things you continue to post regarding your own team. Second, you blatantly continue to deny things you've written when your opinions and theories don't pan out. When you get cornered you cry that its the big bad bills fans picking on you because your a fin fan and it quickly deteriorates from there.

Again, Stroud is a gamble, but if it pays off he will finally give us the bulk we need up front to help stop the run which if you remember was one of our problems last year. If he's healthy and motivated its a brilliant move. If not, its a train wreck in the making.

[Goobylal]

1) Culpepper was never suspended for drugs.

2) The jury in the boat scandal legal trial and the league cleared Daunte of any wrong doing.

3) Culpepper was a 1.5 years removed from his best season ever....not 4 years removed.

4) Daunte came back to play to soon from a triple ligament tear and it did more damage to his future then if he would have taken a year or year and a half off.

5) Randy Moss benefitted more from Daunte, then Daunte did from Randy. Dauntes best season as a pro, was Randy's worst as a Viking. In Daunte's best season as a pro he had 110.9 QB rating, completed 69.2% of his passes, threw 39 TD's and only 11 int's. That happens to be one of the the best seasons any pro QB has had. Stroud never, ever had a season anywhere near as good as a DT that Culpepper had as a QB.

Even with all that, this thread IS NOT about Daunte Culpepper, it's about Marcus Stroud! A player that's been basically the same type of player that his teammates, Bobby McCray and Rob Meire have been, (according to their stats anyway). Strouds numbers are no more impressive then either of those players.

McCray, Henderson and Mirer have all produced very good numbers in Jacksonville more so then Stroud the last 4 years. There was no HC change or FO shake up in Jacksonville to stir the pot or to cause a change due to philosphy, as there was in Minn with Brad Childress and Daunte Culpepper .

Also there was no QB on the Vikes roster that took Dauntes job or did a better job while he was there, so Minn didn't trade Daunte because they had a better replacement. However you could make that argument in Jacksonville with them moving Stroud.

There are so many differences in the two situations it shouldn't even be a discussion in this thread, but some Bill fans think everything the Bills do is the greatest things ever and if someone even questions the move(s), some Bill fans aren't mature enough to understand not everyone see's greatness and they get pissy.

I't not like Stoud is coming off his 5th straight pro bowl selection in just his 6th season as a pro, has been an injury free and a model citizen and I'm just trying to knock the move because I'm worried he will tear it up in Buffalo. I think I've shown more then just a little proof Stroud is anything but the former player he once was.
I don't get the man-love for Culpepper, especially now that he's no longer a Dolphin. Clearly he was made by Moss, who just helped Brady to a record-breaking season. And not having Moss, not to mention his injury (Carson Palmer came back faster from a torn ACL, BTW), have exposed him for the bad decision-maker and sack and turnover machine that he always was.

Getting back to Stroud, you keep ignoring his 2005 Pro Bowl season. Why is that? Because by doing so, you strengthen your argument that he's "4 years removed from...?" As I said, stats don't tell the story with DT's.

But since you seem to like them, in 11 games in 2006, Stroud had 21 tackles and 2.5 sacks, which works-out to 30 tackles and 3.5 sacks over the course of a season. And in 9 games in 2007, he had 22 tackles and 3 sacks, which works out to 39 tackles and 5 sacks. IOW he was playing well in each season, but had them cut short by injuries. And AGAIN, his ankle is the biggest concern with him but reportedly is fine now. I guess we'll see, but there is definitely reason to be optimistic.

[X-Era]

Really? I think if you did a little research over the last 5 years, Rob Meier (DT) John Henderson (DT) Bobby McCray (DE) have all produced more or the same as Stroud on the Jaguars Defense. The Jags have been as high as 2 and no lower then 12 since 2003. Their Defense as a whole has been very, very good. Looking at the stats Stroud was basically the same as Miere and McCray but Henderson was the real machine on the Jags Dline having 2 more total sacks and nearly 50 more tkls, in 5 less games played and one less season in the league.

Again I'm not saying Stroud isn't an upgrade over what the Bills had, I'm not saying he won't be successful in Buffalo. I'm simply looking at the situation based on the facts. His declining stats the last three years, His injuries and his suspension all play a part in the evaluation of what he "could be" in Buffalo. I don't think based on the facts Stroud is this huge addition to the Bills defense the Bill fans want to believe. I think where the problem is, is when some fans over estimate a plyer and their actual contribution to the league. Stroud hasn't been a really dominant DT since 2004.

I thank you not because I agree but because you are staying on topic.

Stroud with Henderson has been one of the best interior D lines in the league since day one. If you throw Meier and McCray at me, I say that they are what they are BECAUSE of Stroud and Henderson, not that they were studs to start.

The 2007 version of Stroud is not what we traded for... I hope. I hope we traded for a guy that we think will be the pro-bowler he once was. You seem to say he wont be, I raised the issue citing guys that never were agian what they were such as Vincent, Milloy, and Bledsoe and drew the link to Donahoe who was the mastermind behind all three.

The concern is valid in my mind, and you make a decent arguement. I simply disagree when you try to claim that the Jags had this stud line that doesnt need a guy as good as Stroud, like he wasnt a major factor in making that line so good... He was. Just that simple.

[yordad]

Stroud is 29. If he comes back healthy, he will be in his football prime.

[PromoTheRobot]

Say what you want about Donahoe, he built a top 5 defense and a couple pretty good offenses, his teams just could never put everything together.
So what you're saying is the teams were good, they just couldn't win? :doh:

PTR

[jamze132]

Thats an interesting point.

The Bills found Stroud to be healthy, he wasn't injured.

However, both the Jags wanted him out and he wanted to be out. Is that a potentially bad situation for us? Can a player go to a new team without ever having a relapse of the "unhapppy camper" syndrome?
By the way, Stroud wasnt taking drugs. More properly, he wasnt taking illegal drugs, and he wasnt taking steroids. He was taking stuff that the league bans.
SF wanted TO out and TO wanted out of SF. The Philly wanted him out and he wanted out of Philly. I think it all worked out for Dallas. Let's just hope we aren't the team in the middle of him being happy.

[YardRat]

Bottom line, damn the statistics...

A healthy Stroud >> Triplett = better defense = upgrade.

I could care less if Stroud personally gets the stats and other guys on the line do...As long as the unit performs better stopping the run and getting to the QB, that's all that counts in my book.

Look up this stat, f-t-p... many times was Stroud double-teamed by offensive lineman compared to the rest of his team mates on the line?

[Goobylal]

BTW, as for Rob Meier, he started 8 games in 2006 in place of Stroud, and got 2 sacks and 17 tackles which works out to 4 sacks and 34 tackles for the year and started 9 games in 2007 and got 1.5 sacks and 15 tackes, which works out to about 2.5 sacks and 26 tackles. IOW he's definitely not as good as Stroud. You can try to say his 2006 season was better than Stroud's, but Stroud was playing on a bad ankle all season.

Aren't stats fun!