Is this year's team better than last year's team? [Archive] - BillsZone.com

Dr. Lecter

07-30-2008, 08:22 AM

Assuming Peters comes in and plays, is this year's team better than last year? <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
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I say it is. I know there are many out there who think the team is worse, even much worse I just don't see it. So before I am called stupid, a homer, am ignoring facts or being blind hear this out.<o:p></o:p>
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The defense is better. The additions of Stroud, McKelvin and Mitchell are clear upgrades. The returns of Poz, Simpson and Denney are also helpful. <o:p></o:p>
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The offense is better, although maybe not a ton. Edwards has a year under his belt and also will have a TC (and preseason) with first team reps, something he did not have last year. The O-line starts their 2<SUP>nd</SUP> year together. Lynch has a year of experience as does Fred Jackson. Any contribution form Hardy and Schouman (remember the last TE we like was also a late round pick and spent time on the Practice Squad) will be beneficial.<o:p></o:p>
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So, also assuming that this year’s schedule is easier (which, on paper, it is) why should the team not go at least 8-8? If the offense and defense and improved and the schedule is easier, why won’t this team win at least one more game? <o:p></o:p>
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SABuffalo786

07-30-2008, 08:24 AM

Absolutely.

Even if we didn't add big names like Stroud or Mitchell, a healthy Bills team would've been better than last year.

OpIv37

07-30-2008, 08:26 AM

Defense is better. Offense is the same.

The team won't go 8-8 until the O proves it can score consistently, particularly in the red zone.

Jan Reimers

07-30-2008, 08:27 AM

I would also add that Spencer Johnson and Will James give us additional veteran depth on D, and that many of our 2nd and 3rd year players - Whitner, McCargo, Simpson, Poz, Lynch, Edwards Butler et. al. - should be ready to take a big step forward.

Captain gameboy

07-30-2008, 08:29 AM

I think they definitely will be.

But....I've said this a few times, I'm really going to b watching the continuity of the offense during preseason games, looking for signs that Trent really knows what he is doing and not playing robotic; that the offensive line looks like it can pick up the third and two's/threes in the running game, and that the d-line can stop the run and get pressure from all positions without stunting/blitzing all the time.

None of this was apparent in the last three preseasons, and never materialized in the regular season.

In other words, I think the preseason games this year are more important than serving as simple talent evaluations.

Dr. Lecter

07-30-2008, 08:31 AM

Defense is better. Offense is the same.

The team won't go 8-8 until the O proves it can score consistently, particularly in the red zone.

The offense is not the same. You are wrong and ignoring facts. The same thing you scream at people for. Even if the improvement is minimal, Edwards having a full TC as 1st team QB and having a season of NFL experience makes him better.

And, even if it is the same as last year, since the defense is better and schedule easier would that not make for a better season? How does it not, logically speaking?

Pinkerton Security

07-30-2008, 08:31 AM

Defense is better. Offense is the same.

The team won't go 8-8 until the O proves it can score consistently, particularly in the red zone.

The addition of James Hardy means nothing, not even a smidge? Or how about continuity? Im not saying the O is gonna be lights out, but it seems like they should be marginally better than last year, if only on paper.

Jan Reimers

07-30-2008, 08:31 AM

Defense is better. Offense is the same.

The team won't go 8-8 until the O proves it can score consistently, particularly in the red zone.
Our O really isn't the same, as the line has a year together under their belts, Edwards and Lynch are no longer rookies, Barnes gives us a true FB, and Schouman and Hardy represent a couple of receiving threats we didn't have last year. And we have a new OC.

OpIv37

07-30-2008, 08:37 AM

The offense is not the same. You are wrong and ignoring facts. The same thing you scream at people for. Even if the improvement is minimal, Edwards having a full TC as 1st team QB and having a season of NFL experience makes him better.

And, even if it is the same as last year, since the defense is better and schedule easier would that not make for a better season? How does it not, logically speaking?

So you're expecting different results from the same group of guys, but I'M the one that's wrong? Doing the same thing and expecting different results is insanity.

But anyway, enough of that.

Let's say the O has minimal improvement, which it probably does. NOT GOOD ENOUGH. In 7 games against playoff teams last year, we got blown out in 5 of them and only won 1. The O needs to be a LOT better to win games. The D is better, but it's not good enough to compensate for the shortcomings of the O.

And the schedule is a red herring. It doesn't make that much difference in the NFL anymore, plus it's impossible to tell how hard or easy it really is until they start playing (think Baltimore last year).

OpIv37

07-30-2008, 08:38 AM

Our O really isn't the same, as the line has a year together under their belts, Edwards and Lynch are no longer rookies, Barnes gives us a true FB, and Schouman and Hardy represent a couple of receiving threats we didn't have last year. And we have a new OC.

Same QB. Same RB. 4 of 5 receivers the same. Same OL. Same starting TE (at least for now).

The majority of it is the SAME and no talent was added, with the possible exception of Hardy.

We were the 30th ranked offense last year. one year of experience is NOT enough to turn an O that bad into playoff caliber. I really can't even believe I have to argue that point.

Captain gameboy

07-30-2008, 08:43 AM

Pinkerton Security

07-30-2008, 08:44 AM

Same QB. Same RB. 4 of 5 receivers the same. Same OL. Same starting TE (at least for now).

The majority of it is the SAME and no talent was added, with the possible exception of Hardy.

We were the 30th ranked offense last year. one year of experience is NOT enough to turn an O that bad into playoff caliber. I really can't even believe I have to argue that point.

I for one am not saying that the O is gonna perform better. There's no way to know how they will perform. However, they are marginally improved with the addition of some height at WR, adding diversity to the offense as well. I have NO idea how you can argue that, because its undeniable. We'll see how the O performs.

Mitchy moo

07-30-2008, 08:45 AM

We're a young team with a good mix of talent. The coaches abilities to make adjustments in game and utilize the players we have will make the difference this season. Having our defense or offense break into the middle of the league in terms of stats would help as well.

I actually plan on the Bills going 11-5, based on a health and desire. The fans are showing thier support.

OpIv37

07-30-2008, 08:47 AM

Hmmmm.

A few weeks ago I worked with a guy who was brand new in the job two years ago, and wasn't really all that good at that time.

This time he was really good.

Nah....Couldn't be.
No explaining it.

Two years and 1000 hours of learning and experiencing could not lead to better performance.

Except the O doesn't have 2 years of experience. Remember, this team finished the season on a 3 game losing streak. They didn't get better as the season went on as the "experience" argument would suggest.

When the season starts, they'll have had roughly 9 months since the last season (way less than two years). And the only actual football practice they had were OTA's, mini camp (where Jauron cancelled practice), and Training Camp (Club Jauron with only 2 double sessions, both of which are already passed), which totals way less than 1000's of hours.

Oh, let's not forget that football isn't new to these guys- most of them have been playing since they were kids. Yet, 9 months (most of which was not spent playing football) is supposed to make a huge difference in their skill level?

Coming from you, that is an uncharacteristically weak argument.

justasportsfan

07-30-2008, 08:49 AM

OpIv37

07-30-2008, 08:51 AM

I say we have a top 20. Wanna bet?

didn't we already make that bet?

HHURRICANE

07-30-2008, 08:51 AM

justasportsfan

07-30-2008, 08:52 AM

didn't we already make that bet?
oh yeah :D

OpIv37

07-30-2008, 08:54 AM

I have not seen one post where someone said this team is worse than last year.

This team should be better. Why did we bring in Mitchell and Stroud? To be worse?

The team gained alot and lost nothing. Think about it. Who did we lose?

I think the question- at least as it pertains to the offense- is who did we GAIN?

On D, it's easy to see where improvements will come from- Stroud, Mitchell, maybe Johnson, and guys like Simpson and Poz coming back from injury.

On O, we have Hardy and.... Hardy.

Captain gameboy

07-30-2008, 08:54 AM

Pinkerton Security

07-30-2008, 08:55 AM

OpIv37

07-30-2008, 08:57 AM

so that means we're not better. bc we only got 1 or 2 guys. they cant help this terrible offense. not even a little.

It can (and probably will) help a little. The problem is that this O needs a LOT of help. A little won't do the trick.

justasportsfan

07-30-2008, 08:58 AM

I think the question- at least as it pertains to the offense- is who did we GAIN?

On D, it's easy to see where improvements will come from- Stroud, Mitchell, maybe Johnson, and guys like Simpson and Poz coming back from injury.

On O, we have Hardy and.... Hardy.

OP, we've had this converstaion last year which ended up in our bets. Experience plus playing together was the argument. I won although granted it was on the defensive side of the ball.

Unlike the D when we made the bet, we aren't losing key players in the O like Fletcher, Spikes ,Clements and every other player we lost that you complained about. INspite of them leaving plus the injuries the D was slightly better. I was right.

I expect our O to do so much better with Fairchild gone , better OL chemistry ,Jackson /Lynch and Trent having more experience.

You're gonna be eating crow and I will be around to stick it to you again :D

OpIv37

07-30-2008, 09:00 AM

OP, we've had this converstaion last year which ended up in our bets. Experience plus playing together was the argument. I won although granted it was on the defensive side of the ball.

I expect our O to do so much better with Fairchild gone , better OL chemistry ,Jackson /Lynch and Trent having more experience.

You're gonna be eating crow and I will be around to stick it to you again :D

I hope I'm eating crow. I'd rather see the Bills win then be able to gloat to a bunch of message board nerds.

justasportsfan

07-30-2008, 09:03 AM

I hope I'm eating crow. I'd rather see the Bills win then be able to gloat to a bunch of message board nerds.
I've been gloating to a mb nerd the past few days :D

Captain gameboy

07-30-2008, 09:06 AM

Coming from you, that is an uncharacteristically weak argument.

I wasn't saying that they all had two years of additional experience.
I was making a point, you know by making a comparison, you know?

The single greatest performance enhancer in many occupations is experience.

Does this mean that there is a linear progression?
No.
That's crazy.

So is expecting incremental improvement every week from a pro football team.

The point is that the experience factor is of massive importance, and this year's offense should be better, unless there is some unforeseen variable.

HHURRICANE

07-30-2008, 09:09 AM

I think the question- at least as it pertains to the offense- is who did we GAIN?

On D, it's easy to see where improvements will come from- Stroud, Mitchell, maybe Johnson, and guys like Simpson and Poz coming back from injury.

On O, we have Hardy and.... Hardy.

So the D is better. We agree.

The offense is not worse:

1) You traded Hardy for Price. How much production did we get out of Price last year?

2) You will have a full year of Fred Jackson as the #2 guy with more use of him in the offense.

3) Lynch will not be a rookie. He will not make some of the mistakes he made last year.

4) Edwards will not be a rookie. He's had a whole season to prepare as the starter.

Notice that I did not list Schonert as an improvement. He's done nothing so far so I'm not giving anything for that. I didn't list an improvement at TE either, which i think we are desperate for.

Greatly improved on offense? No. Better? Yes.

Jan Reimers

07-30-2008, 09:15 AM

justasportsfan

07-30-2008, 09:17 AM

OpIv37

07-30-2008, 09:21 AM

And the big AND: We are a young team. Young teams with 2nd and 3rd and 4th year guys get BETTER.

NOBODY improves enough in one year to make the 30th ranked offense into a playoff caliber one.

Why is it so difficult for you to understand that?

patmoran2006

07-30-2008, 09:23 AM

Aiken/Wire.

Panic flag hoisted and waiving.
It doesnt come down to who you've gained and who you've lost.. It comes down to if the talent core that's already been in place is good enough to be a playoff team. I'm not saying their not, I'm saying that's what it comes down to.

justasportsfan

07-30-2008, 09:27 AM

NOBODY improves enough in one year to make the 30th ranked offense into a playoff caliber one.

Why is it so difficult for you to understand that?
why is it so difficult for you to understand that to get inot the playoffs you don't have to depend solely on the O. Trent Dilfer and the bucs WON A SB. We're only talking playoffs.

OpIv37

07-30-2008, 09:32 AM

why is it so difficult for you to understand that to get inot the playoffs you don't have to depend solely on the O. Trent Dilfer and the bucs WON A SB. We're only talking playoffs.

you at least need a semi-competent O. Our O has a long way to go before they're even as good as that Bucs O.

justasportsfan

07-30-2008, 09:34 AM

you at least need a semi-competent O. Our O has a long way to go before they're even as good as that Bucs O.

so whats your definition of a Playoffs calibre O? Top 10?

Philagape

07-30-2008, 09:35 AM

-- Improvement from Edwards. With his mental aptitude and a full offseason and preseason as starter, improvement should be expected at the most important skill position, which makes everyone else look better.
-- Improvement from Lynch.
-- More WR production from Hardy.
-- Evans improves because of attention on Hardy.
-- Reed, Parrish, Lynch and the tight ends (where there is more depth) get more opportunities because of attention on Evans and Hardy.
-- With Hardy in there and Edwards improved, defenses stack the line less, making the running game better.
All of those factors work together and create a ripple effect greater than any individual improvement.

And while Schonert is unproven as far as play calling, the changes we know about already are bound to mean improvement:
-- Offense tailored to players' strengths.
-- Audibles allowed.
-- Better run blocking because of dumping the zone scheme that didn't fit the players. That will allow Peters, Dockery, Butler and Walker do what they do best, which is overpower.

That's a long and substantial list, all based on the skill sets of the players we have, not blind probabilities. With all that, there's no reason to not believe the offense can't move up to the middle of the pack.

JerseyBoofaloBills

07-30-2008, 09:56 AM

why is it so difficult for you to understand that to get inot the playoffs you don't have to depend solely on the O. Trent Dilfer and the bucs WON A SB. We're only talking playoffs.

I thought the bucs only won one SB? Trent Dilfer? wasn't Brad Johnson their QB?

I could be sounding like an idiot right now..im just curious.

Jan Reimers

07-30-2008, 10:01 AM

NOBODY improves enough in one year to make the 30th ranked offense into a playoff caliber one.

Why is it so difficult for you to understand that?
Why is it so difficult for you to understand that we don't live in a static world? We have almost totally revamped our offense through the draft and free agency over the last 3 years. The pieces may just start to fit very nicely this year.

Why can't you at least ackknowledge the possibility that with continuity, developing young players, and a new OC, we have a chance to become much better?

DrGraves

07-30-2008, 10:02 AM

we've added new better players.
we are healthy.
trent is starting from day one.

yes its better.

justasportsfan

07-30-2008, 10:03 AM

I thought the bucs only won one SB? Trent Dilfer? wasn't Brad Johnson their QB?

I could be sounding like an idiot right now..im just curious.
oops. MY bad, I was thinking the ravens.

OpIv37

07-30-2008, 10:09 AM

Why is it so difficult for you to understand that we don't live in a static world? We have almost totally revamped our offense through the draft and free agency over the last 3 years. The pieces may just start to fit very nicely this year.

Why can't you at least ackknowledge the possibility that with continuity, developing young players, and a new OC, we have a chance to become much better?

because while there is a chance they will get somewhat better, there is little to no chance that they will get MUCH better. They still lack experience and the talent level still isn't there.

Development is incremental. A lousy offense doesn't just come back from the offseason as a great offense. Since we didn't add any talent, that's what you're expecting to happen if you think they're going to be "much better" (your words, not mine). It's not realistic.

Jan Reimers

07-30-2008, 10:16 AM

because while there is a chance they will get somewhat better, there is little to no chance that they will get MUCH better. They still lack experience and the talent level still isn't there.

Development is incremental. A lousy offense doesn't just come back from the offseason as a great offense. Since we didn't add any talent, that's what you're expecting to happen if you think they're going to be "much better" (your words, not mine). It's not realistic.
Last year, we had a brand new O line, a rookie RB, a QB carousel, and a totally unimaginative OC. That has all changed this year, plus Schouman is looking like a good pass catching TE and Hardy should give us a red zone threat.

I generally assume the best. You generally assume the worst. Assuming the worst in all cases isn't realistic, either.

justasportsfan

07-30-2008, 10:22 AM

You generally assume the worst. Assuming the worst in all cases isn't realistic, either.

words to your mother!

Problem is, he not only assumes, he expects the worse.

OpIv37

07-30-2008, 10:38 AM

Last year, we had a brand new O line, a rookie RB, a QB carousel, and a totally unimaginative OC. That has all changed this year, plus Schouman is looking like a good pass catching TE and Hardy should give us a red zone threat.

I generally assume the best. You generally assume the worst. Assuming the worst in all cases isn't realistic, either.

I generally assume the most realistic.

The most realistic is that a rookie OC, a rookie WR and a no-name TE who sat out his only NFL season with an injury are NOT going to make the NFL's 30th ranked offense "much better."

And check the Walker thread- if Peters doesn't show up, then the OL is reshuffled again so that argument is meaningless.

justasportsfan

07-30-2008, 10:49 AM

I generally assume the most realistic.

.
You assume your views are the most realistic ones and that everyone else's that doesn't agree with you aren't.

OpIv37

07-30-2008, 11:01 AM

You assume your views are the most realistic ones and that everyone else's that doesn't agree with you aren't.

because my views are well thought out and I've considered the alternative viewpoint and it simply doesn't make as much sense. It's called reasoning, not assuming.

justasportsfan

07-30-2008, 11:03 AM

because my views are well thought out and I've considered the alternative viewpoint and it simply doesn't make as much sense. It's called reasoning, not assuming.
really. Other peoples views are also well thought out but you fefuse to accept them.

DraftBoy

07-30-2008, 11:17 AM

really. Other peoples views are also well thought out but you fefuse to accept them.

Have you read many viewpoints on this board?

OpIv37

07-30-2008, 11:19 AM

really. Other peoples views are also well thought out but you fefuse to accept them.

because I disagree with their conclusions. They're not taking everything into account- only the things that give them the conclusion they want.

feelthepain

07-30-2008, 11:41 AM

So the D is better. We agree.

The offense is not worse:

1) You traded Hardy for Price. How much production did we get out of Price last year?

2) You will have a full year of Fred Jackson as the #2 guy with more use of him in the offense.

3) Lynch will not be a rookie. He will not make some of the mistakes he made last year.

4) Edwards will not be a rookie. He's had a whole season to prepare as the starter.

Notice that I did not list Schonert as an improvement. He's done nothing so far so I'm not giving anything for that. I didn't list an improvement at TE either, which i think we are desperate for.

Greatly improved on offense? No. Better? Yes.

So the Bills always improve, and everyone else stays the same or gets worse?
Cause I keep reading how the Bills will be better, cause of this and that, but then if anyone tells you the competition is getting better it's simply sluffed off and isn't an issue and no one has added talent like the Bills. Even though in reality, that's just Bill fans opinion.

Example:
I won't even use the Dolphins cause Bill fans are amazingly confident in every single move their team makes and amzing blind to anything the Dolphins do, I chalk that up to a GIANT BIAS bone that's been lodged up your backsides forever.

Nonetheless, look at the amount of talent and changes to the Jets. They didn't just ADD two players to thier defense and draft a WR and suddenly they're a playoff team. No they added talent all over their team players like,

Alan Fanica
Bubba Franks
Vernon Gholston
Kris Jenkins
Calvin Pace
Damien Woody
Andre Woolfork

Just to name a few, yet to listen to Bill fans the the Bills are the only team to improve and have a chance to make the Playoffs other then NE in our division. Bill fans see their team, a team that was nearly the worst at every aspect of the game in the division based on staistics suddenly a playoff team, but give no credit to anyone else in the division for anything. According to Bill fans no one else has improved, no one else will be better, no one else can turn things around...except the Bills.

Then there's this laughable confidence in the QB position, Trent Edwards barely had a better season then any QB the Jets or Dolphins put on the field last year and in some stats Edwards did worse, but he's the only QB on any of the three teams that is given any credit by Bill fans...BIG SHOCK I know!!

Nevertheless, the Bills have done the least in the division to upgrade their talent of the three bad teams in the division....BY FAR! Yet the Bills are the only team in Bill fans minds worthy of playoff talk. Bottom line is Bill fans think everything they have, everything they do is laced with gold and has no chance at all of failure while everyone else is just waisting their time in a futal attempt to improve.

I lay it out just like it is, no exaggerating, this is how Bill fans are speaking and viewing the situation in this division as we speak and rather then realizing how over the top Bill fan are with their opinion of the Bills and under esitamting everyone else, Bill fans such as yourself will be whiny with your resposes cause rather then being the slightest bit realistic about what you really have, you'd rather act like children and throw insults around.

Basically Bill fans opinion of their team is all based on 11 injuries and 7 wins in 07, not their 30th ranked offense or their 31st ranked defense or being in last place in points scored or only having just one win against a team with a winning record, no just 11 injuries and 7 total wins....that's what seperates the Bills from the Dolphins and Jets!

Bill fans claim the Bills have more talent then the Dolphins and are years ahead of the Dolphins in rebuilding, yet the Dolphins scored more points on O then the Bills in 07 even though the Dolphins had a lot more injuries then the Bills on Offense. Bill fans claim the Dolphins have no talent on D, yet we finhsed the season with better statistics on D with just as many injuries as the Bills. But the Bills are suddenly a playoff team and everyone else just simply sucks.

Yet you can't seem to use the slightest bit of reality when you evaluate what you have, the changes you've made and what you actually did in the NFL the last few years. But you magically know how to evalute everyone else teams fairly and without Bias?! UHHH, NO YOU DON'T!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bill fans ignore their bad staistics and use their 7 wins and 11 injuries on Defense as this GIANT seperator of talent Between the Jets Bills and Dolphins. Ignoring all the other facts that are every bit as imnportant to the evaluation of the three teams as the 7 wins and the 11 injuries. But this is how Bill fans convince themselves their team is better then everyone else. It's like watching that annoying kid in the block tell everyone how much better he is then everyone else, yet he never can seem to prove what is coming out of his mouth.

Dr. Lecter

07-30-2008, 11:45 AM

Wins are much more important than rankings.

I don't know how to make it any more simple for you.

Dr. Lecter

07-30-2008, 11:46 AM

because I disagree with their conclusions. They're not taking everything into account- only the things that give them the conclusion they want.

So now you are the only one who takes all factors into account and the rst of us are too stupid or blind to do so?

Maybe you are as guilty of that accusation as we are.

OpIv37

07-30-2008, 11:51 AM

So now you are the only one who takes all factors into account and the rst of us are too stupid or blind to do so?

Maybe you are as guilty of that accusation as we are.

nope.

If the rest of you are taking all factors into account, you're coming to some very questionable conclusions that aren't well supported by the available information.

patmoran2006

07-30-2008, 11:53 AM

So the Bills always improve, and everyone else stays the same or gets worse?.
not everyone else.. Just the Dolphins.

I've been raving about the Jets offseason and some of the young talent they already have.

The vast majority on here is at least semi-unbiased with other teams. But sorry bro, the consensus here and pretty much everywhere is that the Dolpins are awful. That may change in a couple of years, but right now I think they're the least talented team in football.

feelthepain

07-30-2008, 12:10 PM

Wins are much more important than rankings.

I don't know how to make it any more simple for you.

If that were true then why is it your 7 wins didn't get you into the playoffs?? After all you act like the 7 wins is some magic number that will propell the Bills to greatness this year and the 1 win the Dolphins had is some guarantee the Dolphins will be bad again this year.

You also act like the only outcome this year based on last year will be the Bills improve and the Dolphins and Jets don't. What happened last year, happened last year. But the Bills were not so much better then the Jets and Dolphins that they will simply do the same this year. Bill fans would like to believe that, but the fact of the matter is the Bills had the worst staistics in the division, you can't simply ignore that then say..."Yeah, but we had more wins" so we are guaranteed to be better then the Dolphins and Jets will be worse. Based on all the statistics it was simply luck the Bills had 7 wins.

Put it this way, not knowing who the teams are, you take the staistics of the three teams last year and put them on paper in front of football fans and ask them based on these staistics, who would you think had the better year and no one, NO ONE!! Would choose the Bills.

It's just common sense, the Bills won more games simply because the ball bounced your way more then it did the Dolphins and Jets. You sure as hell didn't win more games because you played better, or the staisitics would be in your favor. You seem to think skill is what won you more games in 07 well then why didn't you have the best staisitics oif the three teams if skill is what got you the wins? Based on the numbers luck is the only logical answer as to why the Bills won more games then the Dolphins and Jets.

Pinkerton Security

07-30-2008, 12:19 PM

It's just common sense, the Bills won more games simply because the ball bounced your way more then it did the Dolphins and Jets. You sure as hell didn't win more games because you played better, or the staisitics would be in your favor. You seem to think skill is what won you more games in 07 well then why didn't you have the best staisitics oif the three teams if skill is what got you the wins? Based on the numbers luck is the only logical answer as to why the Bills won more games then the Dolphins and Jets.

I try to stay calm, but this is just Mularkey. Did you watch any of the game in which we beat you 38-17??? Any of it?? did it seem close to you? Did it seem like one or two bounces of the ball and you guys were gonna storm ahead?? I suppose Ted Ginn completely muffing a punt was just bad luck, huh? Its called a bad team brother. Just like the Bills rankings are horrific, muffing a punt and then proceeding to turn it over 4 other times in one game to the 30th ranked D in the NFL means THEY ARE BAD. period. Luck my ass.

feelthepain

07-30-2008, 12:25 PM

not everyone else.. Just the Dolphins.

I've been raving about the Jets offseason and some of the young talent they already have.

The vast majority on here is at least semi-unbiased with other teams. But sorry bro, the consensus here and pretty much everywhere is that the Dolpins are awful. That may change in a couple of years, but right now I think they're the least talented team in football.

Hmm, it sure is funny how Bill fans make up rules that fit what it is they want to believe. Then Spew nonsense as if it were fact.

I've said it 10 times now and yet not one Bill fan can answer this question logically, and the reason they can't is because Wins and Loses aren't how you measure how good or bad teams are. But I'll ask it again.

If wins and loses are all there is in the world and staististics don't matter a lick, then why did the Giants beat the Pats in the SB? The Pats had just as many more wins over the Giants as the Bills had over the Dolphins, yet in the biggest game of the year the Pats lose to a team that had far fewer wins!!

See this win/loss thing Bill fans are clinging to is simply a crutch, they just say, "hey, we had more win, theres the proof" but when the team that had more wins loses to the team with less wins, oh well that's a different situation. That's not really the same thing. Well maybe for one game it isn't, but the Giants also beat Greenbay in Greenbay and Greenbay had a better record then the Giants too. So all this crap about wins is not how you determine how good a team is and how bad a team is. You determine how good teams are over a 16 game season when they play all kinds of teams and for more then just one season, and you do include statistics.

You don't ignore the stats and say well we won more games were better!! You have to win in all aspects of the game not just the win loss column. When the Bills are in the top 10 on both sides of the ball and have a 500 or better record against teams that are above 500, then maybe they will be better. But not now, not playing like they have been for so long. There's so much more to a good team then wins and loses, but Bill fans haven't been that good team in so long they'll take whatever they can get then run with it.

Pinkerton Security

07-30-2008, 12:27 PM

Hmm, it sure is funny how Bill fans make up rules that fit what it is they want to believe. Then Spew nonsense as if it were fact.

I've said it 10 times now and yet not one Bill fan can answer this question logically, and the reason they can't is because Wins and Loses aren't how you measure how good or bad teams are. But I'll ask it again.

If wins and loses are all there is in the world and staististics don't matter a lick, then why did the Giants beat the Pats in the SB? The Pats had just as many more wins over the Giants as the Bills had over the Dolphins, yet in the biggest game of the year the Pats lose to a team that had far fewer wins!!

See this win/loss thing Bill fans are clinging to is simply a crutch, they just say, "hey, we had more win, theres the proof" but when the team that had more wins loses to the team with less wins, oh well that's a different situation. That's not really the same thing. Well maybe for one game it isn't, but the Giants also beat Greenbay in Greenbay and Greenbay had a better record then the Giants too. So all this crap about wins is not how you determine how good a team is and how bad a team is. You determine how good teams are over a 16 game season when they play all kinds of teams and for more then just one season, and you do include statistics.

You don't ignore the stats and say well we won more games were better!! You have to win in all aspects of the game not just the win loss column. When the Bills are in the top 10 on both sides of the ball and have a 500 or better record against teams that are above 500, then maybe they will be better. But not now, not playing like they have been for so long. There's so much more to a good team then wins and loses, but Bill fans haven't been that good team in so long they'll take whatever they can get then run with it.

isnt this just like how you cling to your slightly better statistics to make up for th 1-15 mark you had and numerous sources calling your team one of the worst ever?? yup.

Dr. Lecter

07-30-2008, 12:33 PM

I've said it 10 times now and yet not one Bill fan can answer this question logically, and the reason they can't is because Wins and Loses aren't how you measure how good or bad teams are. But I'll ask it again.

If wins and loses are all there is in the world and staististics don't matter a lick, then why did the Giants beat the Pats in the SB? The Pats had just as many more wins over the Giants as the Bills had over the Dolphins, yet in the biggest game of the year the Pats lose to a team that had far fewer wins!!

Wow.

That is, by far, the most idiotic thing ever posted in this forum.

You like to use yardage stats as some type of true indicator, yet yardage is meaningless without points.

And yes, the Giants beat the Pats (interstingly enough they get credit as the best etam because they WON the game, not because they had better stats). Of course it was one game, albeit the biggest game of the year.

Tell me, who do ou think was the best team in the NFL last year?

DraftBoy

07-30-2008, 12:36 PM

Wow.

That is, by far, the most idiotic thing ever posted in this forum.

I repeat myself again...

Have you read many viewpoints on this board?

Ickybaluky

07-30-2008, 12:40 PM

If wins and loses are all there is in the world and staististics don't matter a lick, then why did the Giants beat the Pats in the SB?

Because they played better.

feelthepain

07-30-2008, 12:45 PM

I try to stay calm, but this is just Mularkey. Did you watch any of the game in which we beat you 38-17??? Any of it?? did it seem close to you? Did it seem like one or two bounces of the ball and you guys were gonna storm ahead?? I suppose Ted Ginn completely muffing a punt was just bad luck, huh? Its called a bad team brother. Just like the Bills rankings are horrific, muffing a punt and then proceeding to turn it over 4 other times in one game to the 30th ranked D in the NFL means THEY ARE BAD. period. Luck my ass.

I see, so you're this greta team because you beat us 38-17? Uh, huh did you watch the game in Miami? Did you see how the Dolphins outplayed the Bills in every aspect of the game yet the Dolphins still lost? We didn't have Ricky, Ronnie, Trent, Chris, Zach, Yeremiah and many others, but we still outplayed the Bills and we still lost. That's what you call nothing but having the Ball bouce your way.

As for in NY, did you see we still had none of the players I mentioned above? This is your proof the Bills are this supereb team? Wow, it's funny how the Bill fans can clain they are now a playoff team beacue they will get "all" this talent back from the injury list, but when anyone else loses all that talent and has to play without them, that's never a part of the conversation. It's only the Bills and the Bills alone that had to play last year with injuries, on top of that the Bills were the ONLY team to lose any talent to injury. Everyone else that had injries simply lost garbage players who wouldn't have made a difference had they played, other wise Bill fans might just have to think a little before the boast about sweeping a team that was clearly more injured then their own team.

But hey, you just keep living in that world where the Bills are this superior force, cause it's an itty bitty little place.

justasportsfan

07-30-2008, 12:47 PM

you guys are better off making fun of FTP than talking football with him. The reason why he still lives in his parents basement is because he's paralyzed from the neck up.

Pinkerton Security

07-30-2008, 01:08 PM

I see, so you're this greta team because you beat us 38-17? Uh, huh did you watch the game in Miami? Did you see how the Dolphins outplayed the Bills in every aspect of the game yet the Dolphins still lost? We didn't have Ricky, Ronnie, Trent, Chris, Zach, Yeremiah and many others, but we still outplayed the Bills and we still lost. That's what you call nothing but having the Ball bouce your way.

As for in NY, did you see we still had none of the players I mentioned above? This is your proof the Bills are this supereb team? Wow, it's funny how the Bill fans can clain they are now a playoff team beacue they will get "all" this talent back from the injury list, but when anyone else loses all that talent and has to play without them, that's never a part of the conversation. It's only the Bills and the Bills alone that had to play last year with injuries, on top of that the Bills were the ONLY team to lose any talent to injury. Everyone else that had injries simply lost garbage players who wouldn't have made a difference had they played, other wise Bill fans might just have to think a little before the boast about sweeping a team that was clearly more injured then their own team.

But hey, you just keep living in that world where the Bills are this superior force, cause it's an itty bitty little place.

did i say we were great. no. but we're better than the phins.

again, we argue that we because we stomped on your heads we are the better team. You argue you're the better team because you had marginally better stats. And when you can beat us, come talk to me.

Also, we had injuries, you had injuries. So they negate each other. We still squished you guys. I dont have any delusions of grandeur, but you do. JUst like you dont see a 7-9 team making a jump to 11-5, which is 4 games, how do you see a 1-15 team improving by 6 or 7 games? I know its impossible to win this argument with you, but lets be reasonable. The phins are not as bad as they were last year, but will be lucky to have 7 wins this year.

feelthepain

07-30-2008, 01:25 PM

did i say we were great. no. but we're better than the phins.

No, that's just your opinion!

Ickybaluky

07-30-2008, 01:29 PM

No, that's just your opinion!

What isn't opinion is that the Bills beat the Dolphins head up the last 4 times they played. They were the better team the last 4 times they played, right?

feelthepain

07-30-2008, 01:32 PM

Also, we had injuries, you had injuries. So they negate each other. We still squished you guys. I dont have any delusions of grandeur, but you do. JUst like you dont see a 7-9 team making a jump to 11-5, which is 4 games, how do you see a 1-15 team improving by 6 or 7 games? I know its impossible to win this argument with you, but lets be reasonable. The phins are not as bad as they were last year, but will be lucky to have 7 wins this year.

Really? Name the 6 players the Bills lost the were as good or better then Ricky, Ronnie, Trent, Chris, Zach and Yeremiah. You can't simply say losing unoroven players is equal to losing players like the 6 above.

justasportsfan

07-30-2008, 01:32 PM

No, that's just your opinion!
its more acurate than the opinion that the fins were better the last 2 years :roflmao:

Pinkerton Security

07-30-2008, 01:35 PM

Really? Name the 6 players the Bills lost the were as good or better then Ricky, Ronnie, Trent, Chris, Zach and Yeremiah. You can't simply say losing unoroven players is equal to losing players like the 6 above.

point taken.

but who the hell is Ricky anyways. shut up with the Ricky. hes a stoner who used to be good and hasnt performed in years.

Captain gameboy

07-30-2008, 01:51 PM

I really didn't think people like FTP existed, but I guess they do.

But.......What's with all this high school girl groupie rock band first name crap.

Really creepy.

feelthepain

07-30-2008, 02:51 PM

What isn't opinion is that the Bills beat the Dolphins head up the last 4 times they played. They were the better team the last 4 times they played, right?

I don't know are the Giants better then the Pats? I mean if you lined the two teams up 10 times would the Giants beat the Pats more then they lose to the Pats??

Also Bill fans are saying they are better then the Dolphins now...that's simply opinion as neither team or situation is the same as it was last year. So no one knows who's better, the Bills might have played the Dolphins better then other teams, but it doesn't make them a better team, as we saw in the SB.

patmoran2006

07-30-2008, 02:53 PM

I now want the Bills to be a playoff team.

Not for my own personal satisfaction or the city of Buffalo; but if nothing else it may be the only thing that could possibly make FTP shut the **** up.

feelthepain

07-30-2008, 03:02 PM

I now want the Bills to be a playoff team.

Not for my own personal satisfaction or the city of Buffalo; but if nothing else it may be the only thing that could possibly make FTP shut the **** up.

Or.........It may finally give the Bills an OUNCE of actual credibility, GOD FORBID!!

I mean it's not like I expect the Bills to win 2 SB in a row before I give them credit. No, I just want them to actually do something on a level that you can't look at their season and say, "How the hell did you win at all with nearly the worst offense and defense in the NFL?" I don't think that's unfair at all, every other team in the league has to actually do something before they are given credit, but not the Bills!! They can simply play awful, luck out a few wins and then suddenly they're a playoff team.

God the last two season for Buffalo has been the same, your coach has a losing record your stats have been some of the worst in all football!! Ya know what they call that??? A TREND!!!!!!!!! A TREND that leads to LOSING.........NOT WINNING!!!!!

DraftBoy

07-30-2008, 03:06 PM

Or.........It may finally give the Bills an OUNCE of actual credibility, GOD FORBID!!

I mean it's not like I expect the Bills to win 2 SB in a row before I give them credit. No, I just want them to actually do something on a level that you can't look at their season and say, "How the hell did you win at all with nearly the worst offense and defense in the NFL?" I don't think that's unfair at all, every other team in the league has to actually do something before they are given credit, but not the Bills!! They can simply play awful, luck out a few wins and then suddenly they're a playoff team.

God the last two nseason for Buffalo have been the same, you coach has a losing record your stats have been some of the worst in all football!! Ya know what they call that??? A TREND!!!!!!!!! A TREND that leads to LOSING.........NOT WINNING!!!!!

Is there some bet we can make where if the Bills do one certain thing or if the Phins fail to do something than you leave the board for forever?

patmoran2006

07-30-2008, 03:12 PM

im in for that bet too, you beat me to it.

justasportsfan

07-30-2008, 03:20 PM

Is there some bet we can make where if the Bills do one certain thing or if the Phins fail to do something than you leave the board for forever?
been there done that. Problem is FTP :limp: his way out of a bet. He's too :limp: to back his own staements up.

feelthepain

07-30-2008, 03:42 PM

Is there some bet we can make where if the Bills do one certain thing or if the Phins fail to do something than you leave the board for forever?

Oh I have to leave the board, forever!! Cause I won't be a blind little YES MAN who agrees with everything you want to hear! How old are you??

I think I'll stay right where I am, cause like it or not I'm not saying anything about the Bills that doesn't have some sort of fact or proof to it. It just pisses you off cause no matter how much you looove your team, you can't expalin away the worst offense and defense in the division over the last 2 years, you can't explain away a coach with a losing record, you can't explain away the lowest scoring offense in the league, you can't explain away only 2 wins in the last 32 games against teams with a winning records! You just want everyone to fall in line and blow air up your skirt, or you want them to leave. Basically tells we're great, (true or not) or don't post here!!

Too bad, I want your team to prove they are worthy of anything before I give them the respect you Bill fans demand!! Win the division, win a playoff game...hell make the playoffs. Beat more teams with winning records then you lose to! Finish the season strong, have more then one or two probowlers. HAVE A WINNING RECORD!!!!!! SOMETHING!!!!!!!!!!! The Bills did none of the above the last two years, yet you want everyone to respect your team? The Dolphins have not done that either, I don't see you telling us how great we will be, why cause you won 7 games and the Dolphins and Jets didn't?? That's your whole argument???? The Bills are better cause they won 7 GAMES!! Oh please!!

Till the Bills prove something that can't be explained away as pure luck they no better then the Jets and Dolphins END OF STORY!!!!

DraftBoy

07-30-2008, 03:47 PM

Oh I have to leave the board, forever!! Cause I won't be a blind little YES MAN who agrees with everything you want to hear! How old are you??

I think I'll stay right where I am, cause like it or not I'm not saying anything about the Bills that doesn't have some sort of fact or proof to it. It just pisses you off cause no matter how much you looove your team, you can't expalin away the worst offense and defense in the division over the last 2 years, you can't explain away a coach with a losing record, you can't explain away the lowest scoring offense in the league, you can't explain away only 2 wins in the last 32 games against teams with a winning records! You just want everyone to fall in line and blow air up your skirt, or you want them to leave. Basically tells we're great, (true or not) or don't post here!!

Too bad, I want your team to prove they are worthy of anything before I give them the respect you Bill fans demand!! Win the division, win a playoff game...hell make the playoffs. Beat more teams with winning records then you lose to! Finish the season strong, have more then one or two probowlers. HAVE A WINNING RECORD!!!!!! SOMETHING!!!!!!!!!!! The Bills did none of the above the last two years, yet you want everyone to respect your team? The Dolphins have not done that either, I don't see you telling us how great we will be, why cause you won 7 games and the Dolphins and Jets didn't?? That's your whole argument???? The Bills are better cause they won 7 GAMES!! Oh please!!

Till the Bills prove something that can't be explained away as pure luck they no better then the Jets and Dolphins END OF STORY!!!!

What in the hell are you talking about?? Do you have a pair of balls or not? I dont care what you say, I just get tired of big talked behind the key board if you are so confident in what you say then put your membership on the line, I can do the same, Im not worried in the least. You're the one who thinks my draft writeups are horrible bias against your favorite team (psst...I was right about the Phins take QB) so now is your chance to get rid of me, interested?

feelthepain

07-30-2008, 04:28 PM

What in the hell are you talking about?? Do you have a pair of balls or not? I dont care what you say, I just get tired of big talked behind the key board if you are so confident in what you say then put your membership on the line, I can do the same, Im not worried in the least. You're the one who thinks my draft writeups are horrible bias against your favorite team (psst...I was right about the Phins take QB) so now is your chance to get rid of me, interested?

In case you hadn't noticed, you don't have to bet to prove anything. I know with some people and their little minds that's the best way, but most of society stopped throwing their carp at each other 100 million years ago, try and catch up.

Betting doesn't prove anything other then you have little value in the things you have cause you're so willing to give it away on just chance. A chance you don't control. I look at the Big picture, not the one little tiny piece I can build my whole world around then tell everyone..."there's nothing else to see here, move along"! You have issues and you think betting will solve those issues...well if you win they might slove them for a day or two but the issue will still be there.

Your team won just 7 games last year, they weren't a playoff team then and they're not a playoff team now. You don't have to agree, but at least I use more logic then, "Well we won 7 games in 07, NOW WE'RE A PLAYOFF TEAM"!! That's what Bill fans do, you like betting? Find a Bill fans that will bet the Bills don't make the Playoffs, OP is a good a candidate as anyone.

HHURRICANE

07-30-2008, 04:32 PM

I love FTP.

Soprano, or whatever his name is, can't even narrow down a QB yet. The odds on favorite, per the PB Post is McCown, who has played for 4 differnet teams in the past 4 years.

Niiiceee.

Mad Bomber

07-30-2008, 05:22 PM

Same QB. Same RB. 4 of 5 receivers the same. Same OL. Same starting TE (at least for now).

The majority of it is the SAME and no talent was added, with the possible exception of Hardy.

We were the 30th ranked offense last year. one year of experience is NOT enough to turn an O that bad into playoff caliber. I really can't even believe I have to argue that point.

Different offensive coordinator. Getting rid of Fairchild is addition by subtraction. He forbid audibles, and his playcalling was abyssmal. Hopefully, Turk will turn that around.

feelthepain

07-30-2008, 05:28 PM

I love FTP.

Soprano, or whatever his name is, can't even narrow down a QB yet. The odds on favorite, per the PB Post is McCown, who has played for 4 differnet teams in the past 4 years.

Niiiceee.

And still Trent stuggles....but that doesn't matter and it has little bearing on the Bills and what happens this year, cause Bill fans say so!

Real Niiiceeeee!

yordad

07-30-2008, 05:30 PM

feelthepain

07-30-2008, 05:43 PM

My thoughts (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?t=155948).

Yeah, it was a laugher.

X-Era

07-30-2008, 05:58 PM

Assuming Peters comes in and plays, is this year's team better than last year? <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
I say it is. I know there are many out there who think the team is worse, even much worse I just don't see it. So before I am called stupid, a homer, am ignoring facts or being blind hear this out.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
The defense is better. The additions of Stroud, McKelvin and Mitchell are clear upgrades. The returns of Poz, Simpson and Denney are also helpful. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
The offense is better, although maybe not a ton. Edwards has a year under his belt and also will have a TC (and preseason) with first team reps, something he did not have last year. The O-line starts their 2<sup>nd</sup> year together. Lynch has a year of experience as does Fred Jackson. Any contribution form Hardy and Schouman (remember the last TE we like was also a late round pick and spent time on the Practice Squad) will be beneficial.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
So, also assuming that this year’s schedule is easier (which, on paper, it is) why should the team not go at least 8-8? If the offense and defense and improved and the schedule is easier, why won’t this team win at least one more game? <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>

Absolutely!

o-line this year > o-line last year if for nothing other than more time together
DL > last year due to the addition of Stroud alone, but Johnson looks to be better than Hargrove, Ellis is a pur pass rusher that we dont have outside of Schobel
QB > hes starting all year long, he knows it, hes prepared, and he knows what hes in for, thats all an improvement over last year
WR > last year due to adding Hardy and my darkhorse Steve Johnson who is going to suprise. Losing Price was no loss at all. My only worry is that we wont feel Hardys presence until mid season when hes ready.
RB = last year. Lynch will be as good and probably better, but at the least just as good.
TE > last year. Royal now has a legit guy pushing him in Schouman. Schouman is obviously hungry to earn the starters title and is working his ass off. Competition make us better no matter who starts.
LB's > last year. Mitchell is an upgrade to Ellison who wasnt terrible. Its even better that we have Ellison as a backup or wave guy. Poz is back and looks ready to go... I expect us to reap some serious benefits from having him back.
DB's > last year. Webster wasnt worth anything, James is making plays already. Greer was our brightest spot for an underdog all year last year IMO, hes back and even better by the looks of it, and is making plays to keep the pressure off and keep his starting role, the team wins from that one. Simpson was missed IMO and is back, hes not up to par yet, but even if he isnt, we have guys that started last year and are experienced, we are no worse off. McKelvin and Corner make us better for at least depth but will help us against the spread O's like the Pats run at times.
ST at least equals last year.
Coaching > last year due to losing Fairchild. Shonert is already getting Evans open by the looks of it and that makes us better. Using a true FB can deceive the D at times and adds another blocker or even pass blocker.

I dont see a real trouble spot, we didnt lose anything big which is a change from previous offseasons. Yet we gained much on D and on O.