I think there are some definate highs and lows in our last few drafts.

[HHURRICANE]

As anyone been paying attention to some of our picks here?

Corner has looked great as a 4th rounder. However, some of our higher picks aren't fairing too well. Is McCargo even playing??

For us Poz fans I have been seriously disappointed so far. Plus he looks like he lost some body mass.

What round did we take Wright in last year because he's as good as gone. Trading good players for 3rd and 4th round picks gets you a Dwayne Wright. So for those who think trading Peters is a good idea...

Anyway just wanted to get your thoughts.

[Voltron]

As anyone been paying attention to some of our picks here?

Corner has looked great as a 4th rounder. However, some of our higher picks aren't fairing too well. Is McCargo even playing??

For us Poz fans I have been seriously disappointed so far. Plus he looks like he lost some body mass.

What round did we take Wright in last year because he's as good as gone. Trading good players for 3rd and 4th round picks gets you a Dwayne Wright. So for those who think trading Peters is a good idea...

Anyway just wanted to get your thoughts.
Dwayne Wright was a 4th or 5th rounder I think

[HHURRICANE]

Dwayne Wright was a 4th or 5th rounder I think

4th.

[DraftBoy]

Can't really judge this past years draft at all yet, but lets go from 2000 up.

2007
Rnd Name College Note
1 Marshawn Lynch California
2 Paul Posluszny Penn State
3 Trent Edwards Stanford
4 Dwayne Wright Fresno State
6 John Wendling Wyoming
7 Derek Schouman Boise State
7 C.J. Ah You Oklahoma

2006
Rnd Name College Note
1 Donte Whitner Ohio State
1 John McCargo North Carolina State
3 Ashton Youboty Ohio State
4 Ko Simpson South Carolina
5 Kyle Williams Louisiana State
5 Brad Butler Virginia
6 Keith Ellison Oregon State
7 Terrance Pennington New Mexico
7 Aaron Merz California

2005
Rnd Name College Note
2 Roscoe Parrish Miami (FL)
3 Kevin Everett Miami (FL)
4 Duke Preston Illinois
5 Eric King Wake Forest
6 Justin Geisinger Vanderbilt
7 Lionel Gates Louisville

2004
Rnd Name College Note
1 Lee Evans Wisconsin
1 J.P. Losman Tulane
3 Tim Anderson Ohio State
4 Tim Euhus Oregon State
7 Dylan McFarland Montana
7 Jonathan Smith Georgia Tech

2003
Rnd Name College Note
1 Willis McGahee Miami (FL)
2 Chris Kelsay Nebraska
3 Angelo Crowell Virginia
4 Terrence McGee Northwestern State
4 Sam Aiken North Carolina
5 Ben Sobieski Iowa
6 Lauvale Sape Utah
7 Mario Haggan Mississippi State

2002
Rnd Name College Note
1 Mike Williams Texas
2 Josh Reed Louisiana State
2 Ryan Denney Brigham Young
3 Coy Wire Stanford
5 Justin Bannan Colorado
6 Kevin Thomas UNLV
7 Mike Pucillo Auburn
7 Rodney Wright Fresno State
7 Jarrett Ferguson Virginia Tech
7 Dominique Stevenson Tennessee

2001
Rnd Name College Note
1 Nate Clements Ohio State
2 Aaron Schobel Texas Christian
2 Travis Henry Tennessee
3 Ron Edwards Texas A&M
3 Jonas Jennings Georgia
4 Brandon Spoon North Carolina
5 Marques Sullivan Illinois
6 Tony Driver Notre Dame
6 Dan O'Leary Notre Dame
6 Jimmy Williams Vanderbilt
7 Reggie Germany Ohio State
7 Tyrone Robertson Hinds J.C. (MI)

2000
Rnd Name College Note
1 Erik Flowers Arizona State
2 Travares Tillman Georgia Tech
3 Corey Moore Virginia Tech
4 Avion Black Tennessee State
5 Sammy Morris Texas Tech
6 Leif Larsen Texas-El Paso
7 Drew Haddad Buffalo
7 DaShon Polk Arizona

Green=Good
Red=Bad
Black=Solid Contributor/Jury Still out.

Green-17
Red-29

[BuffaloBillsStampede]

I am not really worried about McCargo just yet. I will wait til regular season action to take a stance on him. Corner looks like an absolute steal in round 4 so far. Leodis is looking like a bust so far, but like I said its pre-season. I dont really get too down on the front office for drafts because it is such a craps shoot.

The one thing I would really disagree with is POZ. The guy has lost NO body mass. I went to camp three times and he looks like the terminator. I think he is going to be a special player. You have to remember it is really his first season again.

[Crisis]

2002 and 2000 :ill:

[DraftBoy]

2002 and 2000 :ill:

04 wasn't much better...

[TacklingDummy]

What round did we take Wright in last year because he's as good as gone. Trading good players for 3rd and 4th round picks gets you a Dwayne Wright.

The Bills every draft could trade every pick after the 3rd round for another pick in the 3rd round and it wouldn't bother me at all.

McGee in the 4th round is the best Bills player after the 3rd round for those 8 years.

[DraftBoy]

The Bills every draft could trade every pick after the 3rd round for another pick in the 3rd round and it wouldn't bother me at all.

We would just continue to suck is all...

[HHURRICANE]

Can't really judge this past years draft at all yet, but lets go from 2000 up.



Green=Good
Red=Bad
Black=Solid Contributor/Jury Still out.

Green-15
Red-32

Everett was a bad pick. Sorry that he got hurt but he should be in red. You are being generous but I love the list.

[Crisis]

04 wasn't much better...

lee evans alone makes that draft better than 02 or 2000.

i wouldnt call mccargo a bust yet either

[TacklingDummy]

We would just continue to suck is all...

How many good players in those 8 years were picked after the 3rd round? Thanks for playing. :up:

You yourself only listed 4 players in green after the 4th round. And Kyle Williams, Brad Butler, and Sammy Morris are nothing special.

I'll stick with trading every pick after the 3rd round for another pick in the 3rd round.

[HHURRICANE]

If anyone wants to know why we have sucked just look at the list that Draftboy just gave. Ouch.

[BlackMetalNinja]

1 Mike Williams Texas

Could we make that one with like fire and blood and 24 shades of red? :ill:

[DraftBoy]

How many good players in those 8 years were picked after the 3rd round? Thanks for playing. :up:

You make my job way too easy sometimes...

2000-
Tutan Reyes-5th Round
Clark Haggans-5th Round
Brian Young 5th Round
Shane Leckler-5th Round
KGB-5th Round
Dante Hall-5th Round
Sammy Morris-5th Round
Marc Bulger-6th Round
Neil Rackers-6th Round
Paul Edinger-6th Round
Dhani Jones-6th Round
Adalius Thomas-6th Round
Mike Anderson-6th Round
Tom Brady-6th Round
Na'il Diggs-4th Round


That's just 2000...not really a reason to go on much further, my point is made.

[DraftBoy]

Could we make that one with like fire and blood and 24 shades of red? :ill:

I wish...That pick was :poop:

[Dr. Lecter]

McCargo is not a bust yet (DTs can take awhile to develop), but he is headed down that path.

As for the 6th and 7th round picks, I have a hard time calling them "bad" since they are crap shoots at best.

[Jan Reimers]

I haven't seen a problem with Poz, but I haven't been watching him real closely, either. McCargo has been a disappointment - seems like he lacks that fire.

I think Wright was a 4th rounder behind Lynch, Poz and Edwards. Three out of four ain't bad.

[DraftBoy]

How many good players in those 8 years were picked after the 3rd round? Thanks for playing. :up:

You yourself only listed 4 players in green after the 4th round. And Kyle Williams, Brad Butler, and Sammy Morris are nothing special.

I'll stick with trading every pick after the 3rd round for another pick in the 3rd round.

Just because the Bills suck at drafting doesn't mean picks after the 3rd round are pointless. It means we need to hire better talent evaluators.

[Dr. Lecter]

And Hagan was fine for a 7th.....

[DraftBoy]

McCargo is not a bust yet (DTs can take awhile to develop), but he is headed down that path.

As for the 6th and 7th round picks, I have a hard time calling them "bad" since they are crap shoots at best.

I agree but as of this moment he gets the bad pick label.

I have no issue labeling 6th and 7th Round picks bad especially if they don't even make the team out of camp. Other teams hit on their late round picks, yet we miss.

[THATHURMANATOR]

What has corner showed all of you that I must have missed? I have barely seen him do anything good or bad of yet.

[DraftBoy]

What has corner showed all of you that I must have missed? I have barely seen him do anything good or bad of yet.

We agree!!

[DraftBoy]

And Hagan was fine for a 7th.....

Correct, I mis highlighted that one. Adjusted now...

[TacklingDummy]

You make my job way too easy sometimes...

2000-
Tutan Reyes-5th Round
Clark Haggans-5th Round
Brian Young 5th Round
Shane Leckler-5th Round
KGB-5th Round
Dante Hall-5th Round
Sammy Morris-5th Round
Marc Bulger-6th Round
Neil Rackers-6th Round
Paul Edinger-6th Round
Dhani Jones-6th Round
Adalius Thomas-6th Round
Mike Anderson-6th Round
Tom Brady-6th Round
Na'il Diggs-4th Round


That's just 2000...not really a reason to go on much further, my point is made.
I am talking Bills players thank you. Obviously when you add in all 32 teams there will be a few good players after the 3rd round. Especially when you count kickers, return men, and average players.

[Crisis]

tutan reyes? god he was awful

not to mention you have 3 kickers in there.

[HHURRICANE]

What has corner showed all of you that I must have missed? I have barely seen him do anything good or bad of yet.

Did you miss the pick last night?

[TacklingDummy]

Just because the Bills suck at drafting doesn't mean picks after the 3rd round are pointless. It means we need to hire better talent evaluators.

Or maybe it's just luck. I'd rather roll the dice with another 3rd round pick over picks in the 4, 5, 6, 7 rounds.

[Dr. Lecter]

I agree but as of this moment he gets the bad pick label.

I have no issue labeling 6th and 7th Round picks bad especially if they don't even make the team out of camp. Other teams hit on their late round picks, yet we miss.

Do you have any data to show that other teams hit more than the Bills? Because other teams cut their 6th and 7th round picks too. Not all are hits.

[Dr. Lecter]

Although it is nice to see you come around on Brad Butler finally........

[DraftBoy]

Do you have any data to show that other teams hit more than the Bills? Because other teams cut their 6th and 7th round picks too. Not all are hits.

Do I have data...do I really need more than guys like Tom Brady, Zach Thomas, Marques Colston, etc?? Our best 6th and 7th round pick from the last 7 years is Mario Haggan...

[DraftBoy]

Although it is nice to see you come around on Brad Butler finally........

Still can be improved upon...

[DraftBoy]

tutan reyes? god he was awful

not to mention you have 3 kickers in there.

Tutan Reyes was very good for Carolina when he was there.

Yes I have 3 kickers, all successful kickers.

[DraftBoy]

Or maybe it's just luck. I'd rather roll the dice with another 3rd round pick over picks in the 4, 5, 6, 7 rounds.

Its really not as much luck as it is skill...

[Crisis]

Do I have data...do I really need more than guys like Tom Brady, Zach Thomas, Marques Colston, etc?? Our best 6th and 7th round pick from the last 7 years is Mario Haggan...

those guys are exceptions not rules

for every tom brady or zach thomas there's 200 players in those rounds that never start

[DraftBoy]

those guys are exceptions not rules

for every tom brady or zach thomas there's 200 players in those rounds that never start

I just named 15 guys from one draft class alone, 7 Pro Bowlers, and 2 Franchise players....

[Dr. Lecter]

Do I have data...do I really need more than guys like Tom Brady, Zach Thomas, Marques Colston, etc?? Our best 6th and 7th round pick from the last 7 years is Mario Haggan...

You are talking about occassional hits and outliers. What I am wondering is if the long term data supports your claims.

Thomas was 5th round I beleive, btw so he is not part of the comparison.

I would also say in UDFA, the Bills do better than most (Peters, Greer)

[Dr. Lecter]

Its really not as much luck as it is skill...

No, it is a bunch of luck.

Are you telling me that if the Pats knew what Brady woul be, that they would not have taken him before the 6th?

Skill is a part, for sure. But it is a big crap shoot.

[Crisis]

I just named 15 guys from one draft class alone, 7 Pro Bowlers, and 2 Franchise players....

6th and 7th round you named 7 players...2 of which are kickers.

how many comp picks are we looking at in those rounds?

you're looking at a 5/70 something ratio...

[Crisis]

not to mention you didn't list a single player from the 7th round.

[TacklingDummy]

Do you have any data to show that other teams hit more than the Bills? Because other teams cut their 6th and 7th round picks too. Not all are hits.

Arizona

2006:
4.10 DT Gabriel Watson Michigan
5.09 LB Brandon Johnson Louisville
6.08 DT Jon Lewis Virginia Tech
7.10 WR Todd Watkins Brigham Young

2005
4.10 OG Elton Brown Virginia
5.32 ILB Lance Mitchell
7.12 WR LeRon McCoy Indiana, Pa.

2004
4.04 OC Alex Stepanovich Ohio State
5.03 DE Antonio Smith Oklahoma State
6.02 OC Nick Leckey Kansas State
7.01 QB John Navarre Michigan

2003:
5.06 DT Kenny King Alabama
6.04 OG Reggie Wells Clarion
6.37 MLB Tony Gilbert Georgia

2002:
Fourth Round Pick: Nate Dwyer DT - Kansas
Fifth Round Pick: Jason McAddley WR - Alabama
Sixth Round Pick: Josh Scobey RB/KR - Kansas State
Seventh Round Pick: Mike Banks TE - Iowa State

2001
4 98 ARI Bill Gramatica
4 123 ARI Marcus Bell
5 133 ARI Mario Fatafehi
6 166 ARI Bobby Newcombe
7 202 ARI Renaldo Hill
7 246 ARI Tevita Ofahengaue

That's just Arizona...not really a reason to go on much further, my point is made.

[DraftBoy]

You are talking about occassional hits and outliers. What I am wondering is if the long term data supports your claims.

Thomas was 5th round I beleive, btw so he is not part of the comparison.

I would also say in UDFA, the Bills do better than most (Peters, Greer)

Why must you continue the same argument year after year with me?? Lets just take a team from every division that is of my choosing;

AFC East-New England-Top Talent Evaluator
AFC South-Indianapolis-Polian
AFC North-Pittsburgh-Team which similar to us
AFC West-Kansas City-Middle of the road team

NFC East-Dallas-Because we all hate them
NFC South-Atlanta-Hometown for me
NFC North-Green Bay-Similar to us
NFC West-St. Louis-Just because

Now we will look at 6th and 7th Round successful picks of these teams since 2000 and compare them to Buffalo.

Buffalo:
LB Mario Haggans-7th-2003

New England:
QB Tom Brady-6th-2000
LB Tully Banta Cain-7th-2003
QB Matt Cassel-7th-2005

Indy:
Rick DeMulling-7th-2001
Cato June-6th-2003
Von Hutchings-6th-2004
TJ Rushing-7th-2005
Anthony Bethea-6th-2005

Pitt:
OG Chris Kemoeatu-6th-2004
DE Brett Keisel-7th-2002

KC:
DT Terdell Sands-7th-2001
WR Jeff Webb-6th-2006

Dallas:
WR Patrick Crayton-7th-2004
DT Jay Ratliff-7th-2005
FB Deon Anderson-6th-2007
K Nick Folk-6th-2007

Atlanta:
OG Kynan Forney-7th-2001

Green Bay:
OT Mark Tauscher-7th-2000
TE David Martin-6th-2001
OC Scott Wells-7th-2004
DT Corey Williams-6th-2004
DE Mike Montgomery-6th-2005
DT Johnny Jolly-6th-2006
FB Kory Hall-6th-2007
K Mason Crosby-6th-2007

St. Louis:
None


I think thats a pretty objective look...only St. Louis was worse than us. Every other team got at least one starter and in most cases a Pro Bowler out of that time frame. We got a Special Teamer...

[Dr. Lecter]

Nice way to avoid the UDFA part of the argument.

Of course you are framing the argument by picking and choosing the teams you use. In other words, let me use the minority to prove the majority.

I never said the Bills were the best at it. Just that they are not as horrid as you are claiming.

(I would also say that a few of your reds - Polk (8 year career), Wire, Bannan (still in the NFL) - are better off as black)

And Matt Cassell? Are you serious? What has he done that makes him better than Keith Ellison?

[DraftBoy]

Arizona

2006:
4.10 DT Gabriel Watson Michigan
5.09 LB Brandon Johnson Louisville
6.08 DT Jon Lewis Virginia Tech
7.10 WR Todd Watkins Brigham Young

2005
4.10 OG Elton Brown Virginia
5.32 ILB Lance Mitchell
7.12 WR LeRon McCoy Indiana, Pa.

2004
4.04 OC Alex Stepanovich Ohio State
5.03 DE Antonio Smith Oklahoma State
6.02 OC Nick Leckey Kansas State
7.01 QB John Navarre Michigan

2003:
5.06 DT Kenny King Alabama
6.04 OG Reggie Wells Clarion
6.37 MLB Tony Gilbert Georgia

2002:
Fourth Round Pick: Nate Dwyer DT - Kansas
Fifth Round Pick: Jason McAddley WR - Alabama
Sixth Round Pick: Josh Scobey RB/KR - Kansas State
Seventh Round Pick: Mike Banks TE - Iowa State

2001
4 98 ARI Bill Gramatica
4 123 ARI Marcus Bell
5 133 ARI Mario Fatafehi
6 166 ARI Bobby Newcombe
7 202 ARI Renaldo Hill
7 246 ARI Tevita Ofahengaue

That's just Arizona...not really a reason to go on much further, my point is made.

Not really....Watson is a starter at DT, Brown a key reserve, as is Smith. Stepanovich is potentially the starting OC in Atlanta if McClure is down for a long time. Just because you don't know the name doesn't mean the picks were bad, you also forgot 2007 where they took WR Steve Breaston who is a key return guy and their #3 WR this year.

[DraftBoy]

Nice way to avoid the UDFA part of the argument.

Of course you are framing the argument by picking and choosing the teams you use. In other words, let me use the minority to prove the majority.

I never said the Bills were the best at it. Just that they are not as horrid as you are claiming.

(I would also say that a few of your reds - Polk (8 year career), Wire, Bannan (still in the NFL) - are better off as black)

And Matt Cassell? Are you serious? What has he done that makes him better than Keith Ellison?

Im not avoiding the UDFA argument its just something you're trying to add in because you are know you need it. Its not part of this drafting thread, if you'd like to start another, we can go there then.


I picked teams both successful and unsuccessful who are known as both good and bad talent evaluators in no way did I frame the results. You pick random teams and Ill do the same for them too. I don't care.

Cassell is the perfect backup in NE, He'd be a black just as Ellison is. I didn't say he's better than Ellison, thats your own assumption. How Polk, or Bannan would deserve black status is beyond me, Wire an argument could be made for, but he is a man without a position, which is a huge negative.

[Crisis]

if we're comparing late round picks might as well throw in UDFAs.

i'd say peters, digorgio, greer is a pretty good bunch

edit- lecter beat me to it

just realized moorman was signed by seattle first too. so scratch him off that

[Dr. Lecter]

Not really....Watson is a starter at DT, Brown a key reserve, as is Smith. Stepanovich is potentially the starting OC in Atlanta if McClure is down for a long time. Just because you don't know the name doesn't mean the picks were bad, you also forgot 2007 where they took WR Steve Breaston who is a key return guy and their #3 WR this year.

How is that better than a starting CB and pro bowl returner (McGee), a starting safety (Simpson), a starting DT (Williams), a starting guard (Butler) and two starting UDFA's? As well as key reserves at LB (Ellison), OL (Preston - I am not a fan, but he is still here) and key UDFA reserves (Jackson, Wilson, Dig)

[DraftBoy]

How is that better than a starting CB and pro bowl returner (McGee), a starting safety (Simpson), a starting DT (Williams), a starting guard (Butler) and two starting UDFA's? As well as key reserves at LB (Ellison), OL (Preston - I am not a fan, but he is still here) and key UDFA reserves (Jackson, Wilson, Dig)

Now you are changing your argument and at no point did I say Arizona or those players are better than Buffalo or are players. I was simply pointing out that Dummy's analysis of those players is very inaccurate.

You're argument was about 6th and 7th Round picks not Dummy's argument of trading away all picks after Round 3.

[Dr. Lecter]

Bannan is a top reserve in Baltimore and Polk played ~8 years.

How that is not solid for a 5th and 7th round pick, I don't know.

[DraftBoy]

Bannan is a top reserve in Baltimore and Polk played ~8 years.

How that is not solid for a 5th and 7th round pick, I don't know.

3rd on the Depth Chart QBs play 8 years sometimes too, you think they are solid picks too?

Bannan you have made a good argument for, but unfortunately he was a 5th round pick so by your previous argument he does not count. :respect:

[Crisis]

3rd on the Depth Chart QBs play 8 years sometimes too, you think :respect:they are solid picks too?


change that to second string and hello matt cassell

[DraftBoy]

change that to second string and hello matt cassell

2nd String at least is an injury away from starting and doesn't have to hold the clipboard. Plus when he has played Cassell has looked very efficient. For a guy who never even really played at USC prior to being drafted thats a good pick.

[Dr. Lecter]

Im not avoiding the UDFA argument its just something you're trying to add in because you are know you need it. Its not part of this drafting thread, if you'd like to start another, we can go there then.


I picked teams both successful and unsuccessful who are known as both good and bad talent evaluators in no way did I frame the results. You pick random teams and Ill do the same for them too. I don't care.

Cassell is the perfect backup in NE, He'd be a black just as Ellison is. I didn't say he's better than Ellison, thats your own assumption. How Polk, or Bannan would deserve black status is beyond me, Wire an argument could be made for, but he is a man without a position, which is a huge negative.

Thanks for your instructions on to carry on this discussion. Do you some more?

And if you are saying a team is poor at evaluating late round talent, then UDFAs are a definite part of the discussion as they come after that and can show how well teams look at players with a low profile.

My point is this: if you look at the careers of 6th and 7th round picks (and UDFAs) the Bills track record the past 7 or so years is probably average to above average. Not great and it could be better. But it is also not poor.

[Dr. Lecter]

3rd on the Depth Chart QBs play 8 years sometimes too, you think they are solid picks too?

Bannan you have made a good argument for, but unfortunately he was a 5th round pick so by your previous argument he does not count. :respect:

Except Polk played reguarly (albeit mostly on STs) unlike 3rd string QBs.

[Crisis]

2nd String at least is an injury away from starting and doesn't have to hold the clipboard. Plus when he has played Cassell has looked very efficient. For a guy who never even really played at USC prior to being drafted thats a good pick.
almost never seeing the field doesn't make a good pick

him and his 22 career completions, 2 tds and 2 ints seem real efficient...

i don't see how under any circumstance a career backup is a good pick

[DraftBoy]

Except Polk played reguarly (albeit mostly on STs) unlike 3rd string QBs.

Do you even know that he played ST reguarly?? (Psst...he also started 11 games for Houston in 2005 recording 93 tackles, 3.5 sacks, and 1 PD. Just a FYI)

[DraftBoy]

Thanks for your instructions on to carry on this discussion. Do you some more?

And if you are saying a team is poor at evaluating late round talent, then UDFAs are a definite part of the discussion as they come after that and can show how well teams look at players with a low profile.

My point is this: if you look at the careers of 6th and 7th round picks (and UDFAs) the Bills track record the past 7 or so years is probably average to above average. Not great and it could be better. But it is also not poor.


I don't know what "Do you some more?" means but I guess Ill pass??

I am saying the Bills are very poor at evaluating late round talent. If you want to include UDFAs (because you have to, in order to even have a sliver of a point), then you need to provide full Camp Invitees lists for teams so that we can go through them. Thats the issue with using UDFA's is that its damn hard to find the old lists, and unless you have the time to pour through 32 teams players, Ill need the lists so we can compare.

The Bills have 2 good UDFA's the past 7 yearsm how that makes them above average is way beyond me. What are you using to quantify that statement.

[DraftBoy]

List adjusted

[Dr. Lecter]

Do you even know that he played ST reguarly?? (Psst...he also started 11 games for Houston in 2005 recording 93 tackles, 3.5 sacks, and 1 PD. Just a FYI)

I guess that is translated as a "You were right".

[The Spaz]

I went to camp this year and I would say Poz. is definitely bigger than last year. I would guess he is 10-15 lbs. heavier and the dude is a beast.

[DraftBoy]

I guess that is translated as a "You were right".

No, it translates to we were both wrong and that we both should of looked up his stats. He is now a green.

[Dr. Lecter]

I don't know what "Do you some more?" means but I guess Ill pass??

I am saying the Bills are very poor at evaluating late round talent. If you want to include UDFAs (because you have to, in order to even have a sliver of a point), then you need to provide full Camp Invitees lists for teams so that we can go through them. Thats the issue with using UDFA's is that its damn hard to find the old lists, and unless you have the time to pour through 32 teams players, Ill need the lists so we can compare.

The Bills have 2 good UDFA's the past 7 yearsm how that makes them above average is way beyond me. What are you using to quantify that statement.

1. They are not "very poor". That is my point. Most late round picks do not pan out and you have done nothing to show me (or anybody) that they are below most teams. Rather you have shown they are average. Not as good as any of us would like, but not "very poor"
2. Really it is not too hard. Look at how many teams have UDFA's starting.
3. I would say thet have had more than two. DiG is a solid back-up as is Fred Jackson. George Wilson is a success story.

As for being above average, one of those two is the 2nd best player (imo) at his position in the entire NFL. That is not something that happens very often.

[Dr. Lecter]

BTW, I think Jimmy Williams played with the 40ers and Saints for awhile.

[DraftBoy]

1. They are not "very poor". That is my point. Most late round picks do not pan out and you have done nothing to show me (or anybody) that they are below most teams. Rather you have shown they are average. Not as good as any of us would like, but not "very poor"
2. Really it is not too hard. Look at how many teams have UDFA's starting.
3. I would say thet have had more than two. DiG is a solid back-up as is Fred Jackson. George Wilson is a success story.

As for being above average, one of those two is the 2nd best player (imo) at his position in the entire NFL. That is not something that happens very often.

Buffalo 2 good 6th or 7th Round picks in the past 7 years

New England-3, 1 pro bowler
Indy-5, 1 Pro Bowler
Pitt-2
Dallas-4
Atlanta-1
Green Bay-8
St. Louis-0

The top teams hit on late round picks, how you still seem to think Buffalo is "average" is beyong me. Hitting on two guys that produced only on ST for us, is not average picking. Its bad.

The UDFA argument is hard to make considering most sites like ESPN and NFL don't always list where or when a guy was drafted. I don't have the time to pour through every teams roster and see who is a UDFA and who is not. If you do then feel free to. Plus you may have UDFA's who have changed teams which make them even harder to track. If you got that kind of time to find that list and provide it, then Ill give credence to your point about UDFA's, till then we can't really discuss it because we don't know for sure.

Wilson and Digi are depth players, they aren't bad but they aren't great either. Good UDFA pickups though, Jackson was a steal UDFA wise.

[DraftBoy]

BTW, I think Jimmy Williams played with the 40ers and Saints for awhile.

Yea as a returner but never was anything with them. He remains red, longevity due to potential does not mean you become a good or solid pick all the sudden.

Also should we not be bothered that guys like Polk and Bannan only became good after they left here?

[TacklingDummy]

You're argument was about 6th and 7th Round picks not Dummy's argument of trading away all picks after Round 3.

And by looking at the names that are drafted after the 3rd round my arguement is justified. There's not many star players that are drafted after the 3rd round. A 3rd round pick is much more valuable. Sure there is a Tom Brady that comes out of nowhere. But that doesn't happen very often.

[DraftBoy]

And by looking at the names that are drafted after the 3rd round my arguement is justified. There's not many star players that are drafted after the 3rd round. A 3rd round pick is much more valuable. Sure there is a Tom Brady that comes out of nowhere. But that doesn't happen very often.

I showed you 15+ from 2000 alone, Im sorry but I dont buy that argument one bit.

[TacklingDummy]

I showed you 15+ from 2000 alone, Im sorry but I dont buy that argument one bit.

15+? You mean kickers, special team players, and the Pats getting lucky with Brady? Sorry but I'd rather have the 3rd round pick than trying to get lucky.

Like I've said before the only player the Bills drafted worth mentioning after the 3rd round is McGee. Im sure if you look at most teams drafts after the 3rd round they would basically be around the same. But some teams do get lucky and a Brady type player comes out of nowhere.

[DraftBoy]

15+? You mean kickers, special team players, and the Pats getting lucky with Brady? Sorry but I'd rather have the 3rd round pick than trying to get lucky.

Like I've said before the only player the Bills drafted worth mentioning after the 3rd round is McGee.

Yes you know kickers who win games like Vinaterri. Picking Brady was the skill of seeing something in him that many others didnt but I love how you don't mention players like Adalius Thomas, KGB, Mike Anderson, Dante Hall, or Marc Bulger. They are only pro bowlers, a franchise player, and a 1000 yard rusher. Nothing too significant.

What do you mean you'd rather have the 3rd Round pick? Its not about having either or, you get the 3rd round pick and one in all the rounds subsequently in all the drafts.

[John Doe]

Marv's drafts are looking pretty good.

[RockStar36]

I'm happy with the post-TD drafts for the most part.

[Mr. Pink]

I like the TD and post-TD drafts equally...

Both time frames tried to upgrade the team and give us players we needed to push us to that next level but were greeted with mixed results when the players actually went on the field.

Both had their fair share of hits and misses, respectively.

And as stated earlier in this thread, usually the teams who have more hits and misses in the latter rounds are the teams that generally have more success on Sundays. Every team has about the same success rate from rounds 1-3...it's the teams that have better success between rounds 4-7 that in the end ultimately shine.

JMHO

[RockStar36]

I think last year's draft alone - Edwards & Lynch - is a great draft. One (or possibly two) franchise players at key positions in the first three rounds is nice. And to throw Poz into the second like that makes it just that much sweeter.

[patmoran2006]

LOL.
I love how people compare current drafts to “post TD drafts”. It’s like comparing four quarters to a dollar bill; they equal the same thing.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
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The biggest knock on TD was his he took beauty over brawn. Our team has stunk this decade for many reasons, but NO reason is bigger than we’ve been dominated in the trenches on both sides of the ball.<o:p></o:p>
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We’ve had three drafts “post TD”. Guess how many offensive linemen we’ve taken among our first five picks each season during that span. That would be ZERO. We’ve only drafted TWO offensive linemen in the past three years, and one of them was a 7<SUP>th</SUP> rounder on Demetrius Bell (the other a late fifth on Brad Butler).

And we wonder why our OL has such woeful depth??
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We’ve also taken exactly one DT within the first round rounds over the past three years combined, and he’s been a big bust to this point (McCargo)<o:p></o:p>
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Among our first picks over the past three years; we’ve taken two safeties, three corners, three running backs.<o:p></o:p>
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Some of the players are turning out to be keepers; especially the second half of the 2006 draft. But overall our drafts have been veryyyyyyyyyy similar in style to Mr. Donahoe’s since he left.<o:p></o:p>