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LifetimeBillsFan
09-07-2008, 05:21 AM
This is in answer to some of the criticisms that were raised to what I wrote in my thread, Injecting Some Sense Into The Discussion, (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?t=159858 (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?t=159858) ) yesterday where I was accused of not knowing anything about football if I thought that the Bills’ linebacking corps, particularly their back-up linebackers, were strong enough. To answer that criticism and to also address the criticism that some have raised that the Bills management and coaching staff are negligent/stupid/incompetent for deciding to only carry six linebackers on their roster going into this season, I did the following analysis and breakdown of the rosters and depth charts of all of the teams in the NFL that are currently playing a base 4-3 defense.
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Prior to Crowell going on IR, the Bills had third year man Keith Ellison and rookie John Corto as their back-up outside linebackers. Back-up MLB John DiGiorgio has the speed to play OLB and practiced some at the position during training camp. Compare their numbers and those of recently added back-up OLB Blake Costanzo to those of the other teams in the NFL that play a 4-3 base defense.
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In particular let me call your attention to the information on Indianapolis, Tennessee, Chicago, New Orleans, the New York Giants, Philadelphia, Seattle, Tampa Bay and Washington—all teams considered to have a chance to make the playoffs this season.
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Let me point out to those who have been criticizing the Bills for only carrying 6 linebackers on their roster that of the 20 other teams in the NFL that play a base 4-3 defense, at least 15 are only carrying 6 linebackers on their depth chart/roster according to the NFL’s website (and, in many cases their own).
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Let me also point out that Ellison and DiGiorgio each, individually, have more career starts, more total and solo tackles, etc. than all of the back-up linebackers being carried by some teams, including Indianapolis, Minnesota, the NY Giants, Philadelphia, Tampa Bay and Washington. Let me also point out that Ellison’s numbers are nearly the same as those of Jacksonville’s most experienced back-up OLB as well.
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To say that the Bills’ depth at outside linebacker was inferior to that of the better teams that play a 4-3 base defense prior to Crowell being placed on IR is simply not supported by the stats revealed in this breakdown.
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That is not to say that the team should not look to bolster its linebacking corps now that Crowell is out for the season and Ellison has been pressed into the starting lineup. As this breakdown shows, with Corto and Costanzo as their back-up outside linebackers, the Bills are now lacking experience coming off the bench at that position. While it is possible that Corto and/or Costanzo could perform as well as the inexperienced back-up OLBs on other 4-3 teams in the league with playoff aspirations, it would probably be wise for the Bills to look into the possibility of shoring up its depth at linebacker by bringing in a more experienced outside linebacker who could step into the starting lineup if necessary after the Seattle game.
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While Costanzo was the best option for the team to go with for the Seattle game and they may have to live or die with him and Corto as their back-up OLBs for the following game or two, over the course of the rest of the season, however, now that Crowell has been placed on IR and is out for the season, IMHO it would it would seem to make sense for the team to try to bring in someone with more experience, like a Victor Hobson, if he is healthy and ready, willing and able to play, and bring him up to speed in the Bills’ defensive system as quickly as possible. I don’t know if it will be possible for the team to do that or not, but that would be the course that I would like to see the team at least attempt to follow at this point.
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That, of course, is just my opinion and others may well disagree. But, I think that the analysis below will tend to support my other comments on this subject.
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The Bills Back-Up Outside Linebackers:<o:p></o:p>
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In his first two seasons, Keith Ellison had 16 starts in 26 career appearances. In those games Ellison logged 104 total tackles (just 39 last season), 60 solo tackles, with 2 sacks, 6 passes defensed, and 2 interceptions.
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Rookie Jon Corto spent the season on the practice squad.
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In three appearances, none starts, with the Bills last season, Costanzo logged 6 solo tackles.
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Third year man John DiGiorgio, the back-up MLB, can also play OLB if called upon to do so. In 28 career appearances, 14 of them starts, he has 121 total tackles, 93 solo, 2 sacks, 6 passes defensed and one interception.
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Other AFC Teams That Play A 4-3 Defense:<o:p></o:p>
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Cincinnatti: <o:p></o:p>
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The Bengals have only six linebackers on their roster.
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Keith Rivers, the Bengals’ top back-up OLB, was drafted in the first round, but has yet to beat out 2 year veteran Brandon Johnson, a former 5<SUP>th</SUP> round pick of the Arizona Cardinals who had total of 9 appearances, 0 starts, and all of four tackles in his career. If Rivers takes over as the starter, Johnson will obviously become the back-up.
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The other back-up is Darryl Blackstock, a 4<SUP>th</SUP> year pro who spent his first 3 seasons with Arizona, Blackstock has appeared in 46 games, made one start, with a total of 44 tackles, 4 sacks and one pass defensed in his career.
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Denver:<o:p></o:p>
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Boss Bailey was signed as a free agent to start at one OLB position, but is injured. His back-up is Nate Webster, a 9 year veteran, also signed as a free agent. Webster started 13 games for Denver last season, but Bailey was brought in to replace him. Webster has appeared in 86 games, but started only 24 in his career, just 6 in the last four years. He has 243 total tackles, 167 solo, 2 sacks and 6 passes defensed in his career
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Jamie Winborn is a 8 year veteran who led Denver in Special Teams tackles last season. He has appeared in 76 games, but has just 21 career starts, 2 last season. He has logged 240 total tackles, 192 solo, 9.5 sacks, 13 passes defensed and 3 interceptions in his career, most of them with San Francisco in his first 4 seasons.
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The other outside LBs on their roster are rookie Wesley Woodyard, signed as a UDFA, and Louis Green, who has appeared in 52 games in 4 years with Denver, starting none, while logging a total of 31 total tackles.
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Indianapolis:<o:p></o:p>
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Bill Polian must be just as stupid as the folks in the Bills front office: because the Colts are only carrying 6 total linebackers on their roster this season, too. Three are rookies.
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Fred Keiaho, who stepped in as a starter last season after just 14 NFL games and 19 total tackles, with one pass defensed and an interception, is backed up by rookie Jordan Senn out of Portland State who was signed as a UDFA.
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Clint Session, also in his second pro season, takes over as the starter at the other OLB position after 13 games and one start with 26 total tackles, 19 solo, 2 passes defensed and 2 INTs.
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Session is backed up by rookie third round pick Phillip Wheeler.
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Undersized rookie MLB Buster Davis, who was just picked up on waivers is the other back-up LB on the roster.
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Jacksonville:<o:p></o:p>
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Jacksonville also is only carrying 6 linebackers on their roster.
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Third year pro Clint Ingram, who has appeared in 27 games with 22 starts is the most experienced back-up OLB. Ingram has 104 career total tackles, just 33 last season in 11 starts,, with 2.5 sacks, 3 passes defensed and 2 interceptions in his career.
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Brian Iwuh, also going into his 3<SUP>rd</SUP> season, is the other back-up OLB. Iwuh, signed as a UDFA, has appeared in 28 games, starting one. He has logged 44 total tackles, 34 solo in his career, most on Special Teams.
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Kansas City:<o:p></o:p>
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The Chiefs are another team with only 6 LBs on their roster.
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Demorrio Williams is the primary back-up at both outside linebacker positions behind Derrick Johnson and Donnie Edwards. Williams, a former 4<SUP>th</SUP> round draft pick of Atlanta, was signed as a free agent to eventually replace the aging Edwards and is expected to see significant playing time in place of Edwards this season. Williams, who has 43 starts in 64 career appearances has 351 career total tackles—78 last season—with 6.5 sacks (just one in the last 2 years), 5 passes defensed and 5 INTs in his 4 seasons in the NFL.
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Rookie Erik Walden, from Middle Tennessee, just picked up from Dallas on waivers is the other OLB on the roster.
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Oakland:<o:p></o:p>
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Another 4-3 defensive team that is only carrying 6 linebackers on its roster.
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Former starter Robert Thomas, who was beaten out by third year man Rickey Brown (1 start, 29 appearances, 21 total tackles, 16 solo in 2 seasons) is the back-up at MLB and one OLB position. Thomas has appeared in 82 games in six seasons, starting 49, with 302 total tackles, 244 solo, 2 sacks, 7 passes defensed and an interception in his career.
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Rookie Jon Alston out of South Carolina and fourth year man Isaiah Ekejiuba, who has appeared in 32 games, with 25 total tackles, are the other two linebackers on the roster.
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Tennessee:<o:p></o:p>
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Old friend Josh Stamer (we know how he made most of his 65 career tackles) and Colin Allred, who spent his rookie year in 2007 on the practice squad, are listed as the Titans’ primary back-ups at outside linebacker.
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Fourth round draft pick Stanford Keglar, out of Purdue, and Ken Amato, who has no starts and just 31 total tackles in the 61 appearances that he has made in his five seasons, are the other two OLBs on the roster.
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NFC Teams That Play A 4-3 Defense:<o:p></o:p>
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Arizona:<o:p></o:p>
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The NFL website shows Arizona carrying 7 LBs on its roster, but the Cardinals’ website shows them carrying only six.
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Former 3-4 LB Clark Haggans, a 9<SUP>th</SUP> year pro, is the primary back-up behind starters Chiki Okafor and Karlos Dansby. Haggans has 61 starts in 104 career appearances with 315 total tackles (58 last season), 210 solo (36 last year), 32.5 sacks, 18 passes defensed and one INT in his career.
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Rookie Ali Highsmith, out of LSU, is shown as a back-up at MLB on the NFL site and as the back-up to Dansby on the Cardinals’ website.
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Rookie Chris Harrington, from Texas A & M, is listed as the second back-up at outside LB on the NFL site, but doesn’t even have a page or listing on the Cardinals’ site.
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Atlanta:
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Another team carrying only six LBs on their roster.
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Old friend Coy Wire and second year man Stephen Nicholas, who had 33 tackles, 29 solo, and a sack in 13 appearances as a rookie, none starts, are the two back-up outside linebackers.
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Carolina:<o:p></o:p>
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Landon Johnson, signed as a free agent this offseason, was unable to beat out Ni’all Diggs or Thomas Davis for a starting spot and is listed as Diggs back-up. Johnson had 53 starts in 64 appearances for Cincinnatti in four years, racking up 394 total tackles, 269 solo, with 3.5 sacks, 12 passes defensed and one INT.
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Third year man James Anderson, who has 3 starts in 28 appearances, with 38 tackles, 32 solo, 2 sacks and 2 passes defensed, is this primary backup behind Davis.
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Third year pro Brandon Jamison, who has seven tackles in 22 career appearances, and 8<SUP>th</SUP> year man Donte Curry, who has 12 starts in 85 career appearances, with 167 total tackles, 130 solo, and 3 sacks (none in the last 6 seasons), are the other two outside LBs on the roster.
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Chicago:<o:p></o:p>
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Yet another team that is carrying only 6 LBs on its roster.
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Third year pro Jamar Williams and 5<SUP>th</SUP> year man Darrell McClover are the two back-up outside linebackers. Williams has one start in 19 career appearances, with 32 total tackles, 24 solo, one sack and 3 passes defensed. McClover has appeared in 28 games, started none and logged 25 total tackles, 22 solo.
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Detroit:<o:p></o:p>
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The NFL website shows them carrying only 6 LBs on their roster. The Lions website, however shows them carrying seven.
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Detroit just picked up 7<SUP>th</SUP> year man Ryan Nece after he was cut in late August. Nece has started 35 games in 85 appearances with 236 total tackles, 170 solo, 3.5 sacks, 5 passes defensed and 2 interceptions in his career.
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Gilbert Gardiner has 15 starts in 50 games over four seasons, with 106 total tackles, 73 solo, one sack, 6 passes defensed and one interception.
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Fifth year man Alex Lewis has started seven games in 41 appearances, with 135 tackles, 104 solo, 2 sacks, 4 passes defensed and an interception.
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Green Bay:<o:p></o:p>
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Yet another team carrying just 6 LBs on their roster.
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Free agent signing Brandon Chillar was unable to beat out Brady Poppinga and is now his back-up. Chillar had 41 starts in 63 appearances for St. Louis logging 200 total tackles, 171 solo, 4.5 sacks and 5 passes defensed in those games.
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Sixth year man Tracy White, who has just 2 starts in 63 career appearances, with 74 total tackles, 62 solo and a sack, is the other back-up outside linebacker.
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Minnesota:<o:p></o:p>
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The Vikings are currently showing only FOUR linebackers on their depth chart and six on their roster.
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Vinny Ciurciu is the only back-up linebacker on the Vikings depth chart. Ciurciu has 5 starts in 70 career appearances, racking up 89 tackles, 86 solo and one pass defensed in those games.
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Rookie Erin Henderson, out of Maryland, and second year man David Herron, from Michigan St., who appeared in two games on special teams as a rookie, are also listed on the Minnesota roster, but are not listed on the depth chart.
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New Orleans:<o:p></o:p>
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Yet another 4-3 team that is carrying only 6 LBs on their roster.
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Ninth year man Mark Simoneau, who was supplanted at MLB when the Saints acquired Jonathan Vilma from the Jets, is now listed as the back-up behind Scott Fujita at one OLB position. Simoneau has 47 times in 123 career appearances. He has 369 total tackles, 265 solo, 7 sacks, 11 passes defensed, and one INT in those games, most while playing MLB.
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Seventh year man Troy Evans, who has no starts in 88 career appearances with 94 tackles, 73 solo and a pass defensed and an interception, is listed as the back-up at the other outside linebacker position.
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Second year man Marvin Mitchell, who had 9 tackles, 8 solo, in 10 appearances as a rookie is the other LB on the roster.
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New York Giants:<o:p></o:p>
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The Super Bowl champs have seven LBs on their roster, but one, rookie Jonathan Goff, is listed as injured.
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Rookie Bryan Kehl, out of BYU, is the back-up at one outside linebacker position. Kehl got his career off to a great start with 5 solo tackles in the 2008 season opener.
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The other back-up outside linebacker is the much ballyhooed Zak DeOssie who had 6 solo tackles as a rookie, but didn’t log one in the Giants’ first game this season.
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Fourth year MLB Chase Blackburn is the first LB off the bench for the NY Giants and often has played OLB. Blackburn has started two games in 48 career appearances. In those games, Blackburn has 70 tackles, 56 solo, with one interception.
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It should also be noted that the Giants are starting third year man Gerris Wilkinson at one one the outside linebacker positions. Coming into this season, Wilkinson had only two previous starts. Including his performance in the season opener, Wilkinson has logged 45 tackles, 33 solo, with two passes defensed in his 30 career appearances.
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Philadelphia:<o:p></o:p>
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Yet another team that is carrying just 6 LBs on its roster.
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Torrance Daniels, entering his third season, and second year man Akeem Jordan are the Eagles’ back-up outside linebackers. Rookie Joe Mays from North Dakota State is the back-up MLB.
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Daniels has appeared in all of 10 games, none starts, and logged all of 5 solo tackles in his career.
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Jordan got one start in nine games as a rookie last year. In his nine appearances he logged 20 total tackles, 17 of them solo tackles.
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Seattle:<o:p></o:p>
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Still another team that is carrying only 6 linebackers on its roster.
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Seventh year man D.D. Lewis is the back-up at one outside linebacker position. Lewis has started 18 games in 53 career appearances with 163 total tackles, 123 solo, one sack and two passes defensed in those games.
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Third year man Lance Laury is the other back-up OLB. He has made 24 appearances, no starts, in two seasons, logging 30 total tackles, 23 solo in those appearances.
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Rookie David Hawthorne out of TCU is the back-up MLB.
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Tampa Bay:<o:p></o:p>
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John Gruden and Monte Kiffin must not know what they are doing either: they are only carrying 6 LBs on their depth chart as well.
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Second year man Quincy Black and rookie Geno Hayes, out of FSU, are the back-up outside linebackers.
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Black had 24 tackles, 18 solo, in 15 appearances, none starts, as a rookie.
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Second year man Adam Hayward, who had 15 total tackles, 12 solo, in 12 appearances, none starts, is the back-up MLB.
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Washington:<o:p></o:p>
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And, finally, yet another 4-3 team with only 6 linebackers on its depth chart.
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Seventh year man Khary Campbell and fourth year pro Alfred Fincher are the Redskins’ back-up outside linebackers. Second year man H.B. Blades is the back-up MLB. Between the three of them they have all of one career start.
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Campbell is the one who made that one career start in his 67 career appearances. He has logged 91 total tackles, 75 solo in his seven year career.
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Fincher has appeared in 24 games, starting none, making 20 total tackles, 15 of them solo tackles.
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Blades has appeared in 17 games, including the 2008 season opener, without making a start, racking up 24 total tackles, 18 solos.


While there are some teams that obviously are going into this season with better and more experienced depth at outside linebacker than the Bills were expecting to have prior to Crowell being placed on IR, it is actually quite surprising to see how many teams, particularly teams that employ a Tampa 2 defensive scheme--and good teams at that--have very little playing experience at the position behind their starters. It also appears that the Bills are not the only team that has prefered to keep linebackers who are perhaps more suited to playing special teams than to stepping into the starting lineup.

shelby
09-07-2008, 06:39 AM
Thanks LBF!

HHURRICANE
09-07-2008, 08:27 AM
I pretty much agreed with you on LB, just not on the way the IR played out. You didn't write anything regarding my own thoughts on Peters so what should I assume there...

HHURRICANE
09-07-2008, 08:29 AM
By the way, I saw the resonse regarding your knowledge of football and I put that in the category of the absurd. You are by one of the most knowledgeable people on this board!!

This site is better for you being here everyday!

YardRat
09-07-2008, 08:30 AM
Atta boy, LtBF....give 'em hell.

RingofFire
09-07-2008, 09:47 AM
Jeez, how long did that take to write up!