Let's Bury Something

[Captain gameboy]

One of the things that irritates me is that we never seem to come to a conclusion about a premise, regardless of evidence.

Let's bury one thing here.

The concept that our training camp is "Club Jauron," and that the staff's decision to practice the way we do in camp, specifically, the number of two a days, leads us to not being prepared early, and is a factor in injuries.

We are 2-0, with no serious injuries in our first two games, and anything from here forward is clearly not the result of running or not running two-a-days with a lot of guys who are no longer here.

Can we at least draw that conclusion, or are we going to read the same nonsense next year?

Can I get an RIP to this premise?

[OpIv37]

One of the things that irritates me is that we never seem to come to a conclusion about a premise, regardless of evidence.

Let's bury one thing here.

The concept that our training camp is "Club Jauron," and that the staff's decision to practice the way we do in camp, specifically, the number of two a days, leads us to not being prepared early, and is a factor in injuries.

We are 2-0, with no serious injuries in our first two games, and anything from here forward is clearly not the result of running or not running two-a-days with a lot of guys who are no longer here.

Can we at least draw that conclusion, or are we going to read the same nonsense next year?

Can I get an RIP to this premise?

Absolutely not.

With similar training camp regimens, the team was 2-5 in 2006 and 1-4 in 2007. They lost close games early in the season and wore down in the 4th quarter.

So, out of three examples, we have 2 where the team wasn't ready and 1 were the team was ready. And you think that's enough evidence to bury it? Please.

We can only give an RIP to the premise if you forget 2006 and 2007 ever happened.

[Dr. Lecter]

You have no evidence the TCs were the reason for the slow starts.

Correlation is not the same as causality.

[Captain gameboy]

Sure Op.

"The team," isn't "the team."

They are all different, and this one isn't the others.

[OpIv37]

Sure Op.

"The team," isn't "the team."

They are all different, and this one isn't the others.

But numerous things are different.

Maybe we didn't start slow this year because we had enough talent to overcome the lack of preparation. Maybe the teams we played weren't as strong and that allowed us to overcome Club Jauron. Maybe not.

With 2 examples of slow starts and numerous factors at play, it is impossible to logically rule out Club Jauron as a myth. You accuse other people of having no evidence that it's a problem, yet you want to come to a conclusion without evidence yourself simply because you don't like the premise.

[HHURRICANE]

No this can't be buried. If anything the Bills learned that Club Jauron didn't work and that's why this camp was so much more intense.

Maybe that's why we are 2-0.

[OpIv37]

You have no evidence the TCs were the reason for the slow starts.

Correlation is not the same as causality.

He has no evidence that it isn't. Until we get evidence one way or the other, it's still a possibility and it shouldn't be buried.

[Dr. Lecter]

If Club Jauron was the reason for the last two season's slow starts, it would have caused a slow start this season. Could have it contributed? Perhaps, but the team is starting very fast including not wearing down in the most exhausting game they have had in years this past Sunday. It would have reared its ugly head then for sure.

It did not happen. Just like missing one practice in July did not doom the team.

[OpIv37]

If Club Jauron was the reason for the last two season's slow starts, it would have caused a slow start this season. Could have it contributed? Perhaps, but the team is starting very fast including not wearing down in the most exhausting game they have had in years this past Sunday. It would have reared its ugly head then for sure.

It did not happen. Just like missing one practice in July did not doom the team.

That's an overly simplistic view of the situation. Maybe it didn't happen because our players kept themselves in better shape on their own in the off-season. Maybe it didn't happen because the other team didn't wear us down as much. Mayb it didn't happen because the training staff had a better hydration strategy.

There are several examples of the team not being prepared early in the season. There is ONE example of the team being prepared. That is not nearly enough evidence to conclude that Club Jauron isn't a problem.

And you keep going back to that missed practice. We've been over this before- it's a symptom, not the problem in itself. The problem is Jauron further limiting opportunities to practice, which are limited by the CBA as it is.

[Mitchy moo]

Our improvements are based on the talent we field. The offseason conditioning programs have helped as well but not as much as the players desire to succeed. Heart comes in many ways, contributing to a win, however small that contribution, is what counts.

[Albany,n.y.]

Absolutely not.

With similar training camp regimens, the team was 2-5 in 2006 and 1-4 in 2007. They lost close games early in the season and wore down in the 4th quarter.

So, out of three examples, we have 2 where the team wasn't ready and 1 were the team was ready. And you think that's enough evidence to bury it? Please.

We can only give an RIP to the premise if you forget 2006 and 2007 ever happened.
Hmmmm, lets see same coach, same training camp stuff.
Maybe it's the talent level-most importantly QB

[justasportsfan]

You have no evidence the TCs were the reason for the slow starts.

Correlation is not the same as causality.
I would attribute the last couple of years slow starts to rebuilding and being last years youngest team .

Club Jauron beat the Jaguars in 95 degree heat in their own backyard. Impressive.

[Ebenezer]

One of the things that irritates me is that we never seem to come to a conclusion about a premise, regardless of evidence.

Let's bury one thing here.

The concept that our training camp is "Club Jauron," and that the staff's decision to practice the way we do in camp, specifically, the number of two a days, leads us to not being prepared early, and is a factor in injuries.

We are 2-0, with no serious injuries in our first two games, and anything from here forward is clearly not the result of running or not running two-a-days with a lot of guys who are no longer here.

Can we at least draw that conclusion, or are we going to read the same nonsense next year?

Can I get an RIP to this premise?
I will agree except for on one point...tackling. This team is weak on that.

[Captain gameboy]

I would attribute the last couple of years slow starts to rebuilding and being last years youngest team .

Club Jauron beat the Jaguars in 95 degree heat in their own backyard. Impressive.

Absolutely.

They are prepared.
They are going into the third game injury free, and anything that happens from this day on cannot be attribute to lack of activity at camp.

Nobody has a thing to say about way Jauron's staff handled this camp, other than they did a pretty nice job.

Not a single realistic fan had us out of the gate at 2-0 without injury.

It is buried.

[justasportsfan]

Absolutely.

They are prepared.
They are going into the third game injury free, and anything that happens from this day on cannot be attribute to lack of activity at camp.

Nobody has a thing to say about way Jauron's staff handled this camp, other than they did a pretty nice job.

Not a single realistic fan had us out of the gate at 2-0 without injury.

It is buried.
Dicks team usually finishes strong for him. This time they came out strong. I hope they finish stronger later in the season than the way they started

[jmb1099]

Those who want to blame Jauron for everything that happened over the last few years only have a leg to stand on because as the head coach, the buck should stop with him. So in that regard the negativity is never going away because it can't. However, if anyone here was given the same amount of learning curve on their jobs that we give to the team we'd all be unemployed. Its only two games into the season, but we obviously are better. If improvement is what is necessary for satisfaction than as of today everyone ought to be pretty darn satisfied, everyone that is with the exception of course being those that never find anything good enough. 2-0... complain when you have a reason

[HAMMER]

He has no evidence that it isn't. Until we get evidence one way or the other, it's still a possibility and it shouldn't be buried.

This is so ridiculous, you are the most analytical person ever. Many (most) injuries are not the result of a lack of conditioning. How does Pos' broken arm speak to conditioning? Simpsons' broken ankle, Everetts' broken neck? Not even a little correlation, give it up and admit you are just being stubborn and can never lose an argument.

[OpIv37]

This is so ridiculous, you are the most analytical person ever. Many (most) injuries are not the result of a lack of conditioning. How does Pos' broken arm speak to conditioning? Simpsons' broken ankle, Everetts' broken neck? Not even a little correlation, give it up and admit you are just being stubborn and can never lose an argument.

Back the truck up.

I NEVER said that Club Jauron had anything to do with injuries.

I said it had to do with the team getting off to slow starts early in the season and being tired in the 4th quarter, which are direct results of conditioning.

[OpIv37]

Those who want to blame Jauron for everything that happened over the last few years only have a leg to stand on because as the head coach, the buck should stop with him. So in that regard the negativity is never going away because it can't. However, if anyone here was given the same amount of learning curve on their jobs that we give to the team we'd all be unemployed. Its only two games into the season, but we obviously are better. If improvement is what is necessary for satisfaction than as of today everyone ought to be pretty darn satisfied, everyone that is with the exception of course being those that never find anything good enough. 2-0... complain when you have a reason

what does that have to do with Club Jauron.

We started 2-5 in 2006 and 1-4 last year. If that's not a reason to complain, I don't know what is.

And at my job, if it took me over 2 years to learn how to do it correctly, I'd be fired.

[Captain gameboy]

Let's bury another thing.

Notice how Jack Del Rio was walking up and down the bench cheerleading?

I made a comment that if we lose, we will have ten threads about our cadaver head coach.

These are pros. The coaches do things during the week and privately.

The game is not won or lost on coaches exhortations during the game.

Nice theatrics Jack.

[justasportsfan]

what does that have to do with Club Jauron.

We started 2-5 in 2006 and 1-4 last year. If that's not a reason to complain, I don't know what is.

And at my job, if it took me over 2 years to learn how to do it correctly, I'd be fired. you have every reason to complain about the slow starts the last couple of years but you blamed it on Club Jauron. The rest of us knew that was part of rebuilding.

[jmb1099]

what does that have to do with Club Jauron.

We started 2-5 in 2006 and 1-4 last year. If that's not a reason to complain, I don't know what is.

And at my job, if it took me over 2 years to learn how to do it correctly, I'd be fired.
My personal perspective is that the "Club Jauron" thing is a myth, just my opinion. My point is that since he is the HC he is responsible for the overall success or failure of the team so in that regard those who want to complain have a leg to stand on. That being said, we're 2-0 this year, why are you still complaining about last year?

And as for your job, like with anyone else there is a learning curve. With all of the variables involved in taking over a HC position there is a steep learning curve. The curve in in proportion to the specific job. I have no idea what you do, but I am going to go out a limb and assume that you don't have to manage near the complexities of an NFL HC. If I am wrong I apologize in advance.

[OpIv37]

My personal perspective is that the "Club Jauron" thing is a myth, just my opinion. My point is that since he is the HC he is responsible for the overall success or failure of the team so in that regard those who want to complain have a leg to stand on. That being said, we're 2-0 this year, why are you still complaining about last year?

And as for your job, like with anyone else there is a learning curve. With all of the variables involved in taking over a HC position there is a steep learning curve. The curve in in proportion to the specific job. I have no idea what you do, but I am going to go out a limb and assume that you don't have to manage near the complexities of an NFL HC. If I am wrong I apologize in advance.

I don't have a problem with your personal perspective- it's your opinion and we're all entitled to them. I have a problem with gameboy trying to shut down the discussion on this subject because of his personal opinion.

And for the record, I'm not complaining, or I didn't intend to- I'm just trying to respond to the post and make it clear that the jury is still out on this matter.

And no, my job isn't as complex as being an NFL HC.

[casdhf]

And at my job, if it took me over 2 years to learn how to do it correctly, I'd be fired. 40,000 posts says you probably should be, Op.

[ParanoidAndroid]

Is this debate even worth it? Our sample data for this is a total of 3 trials. That's just ridiculous if you're actually trying to decide whether it is a factor or not. Stamp it with insuficient evedence and get back to us in a few years. Perhaps, after Jauron's 10th season here, you might have enough data to support your argument either way.
So, lets bury it, but dig it up in a while, like a time capsule.

[Captain gameboy]

I don't have a problem with your personal perspective- it's your opinion and we're all entitled to them. I have a problem with gameboy trying to shut down the discussion on this subject because of his personal opinion.


You have a problem with everything, and when you are wrong, your problem becomes more evident, because you can never admit that you are wrong.

When something is resolved, as this should be, even the causal observer gives it up.

Your nonsense about how Jauron runs his camp has failed the test.

Your test.

The Bills have been prepared.

The Bills have won.

The Bills were no more or less fatigued than either Seattle or the Jags in very difficult conditions and away.

Give it up.
Admit it.
This is a very good staff who knows what they are doing to a far greater degree than you will ever hope to, and you trying to make it my view vs. yours is ridiculous.

[Ingtar33]

Absolutely not.

With similar training camp regimens, the team was 2-5 in 2006 and 1-4 in 2007. They lost close games early in the season and wore down in the 4th quarter.

So, out of three examples, we have 2 where the team wasn't ready and 1 were the team was ready. And you think that's enough evidence to bury it? Please.

We can only give an RIP to the premise if you forget 2006 and 2007 ever happened.


your logic is faulty. that's like saying people who eat apples die... so apples kill people.

well, since everyone dies, and everyone who's ever eaten an apple will die... it makes sense to a point i guess.

but it's not true.

I personally don't favor overly violent practices. i think the season is tough enough, and coaches who favor them seem to think that it will make their team tougher. I disagree. I think it tends to hurt more then help at the end of the year.

[OpIv37]

You have a problem with everything, and when you are wrong, your problem becomes more evident, because you can never admit that you are wrong.

When something is resolved, as this should be, even the causal observer gives it up.

Your nonsense about how Jauron runs his camp has failed the test.

Your test.

The Bills have been prepared.

The Bills have won.

The Bills were no more or less fatigued than either Seattle or the Jags in very difficult conditions and away.

Give it up.
Admit it.
This is a very good staff who knows what they are doing to a far greater degree than you will ever hope to, and you trying to make it my view vs. yours is ridiculous.


I have a problem with you proclaiming me to be wrong when it's impossible for you to actually have the evidence necessary to proclaim me wrong.

Once again, you are IGNORING the last two years when we were CLEARLY more fatigued than our opponents early in the season. But hey, why pay attention to evidence that doesn't support your preconceived notions?

You accuse ME of making this my view vs your view, then you say I don't know what I'm doing? Please. This isn't about my view vs your view. It's about you pretending to have evidence so you can shut down an opinion you don't like.

This also isn't about whether or not I know what I'm doing. It's about getting results. The past two years, the coaching staff didn't get results. So far, they have gotten results this year, and I've said in other posts that I'm gaining some confidence in them. But you're ready to throw out two years of mediocrity after two games, and that's just ridiculous.

[HAMMER]

Op can NEVER, EVER be wrong.

[OpIv37]

Op can NEVER, EVER be wrong.

I could be wrong here.

But gameboy doesn't know. Neither does anyone else. That's all I'm saying.

[Mitchy moo]

Op can NEVER, EVER be wrong.

Actually, OP has kept us on tract and in reality up until now. I give him credit for being objective and not letting us get too far ahead of ourselves. Time for him to change as the bills get better, give himself a makeover.

[justasportsfan]

I have a problem with you proclaiming me to be wrong when it's impossible for you to actually have the evidence necessary to proclaim me wrong.

.
do you have evidence that you were right ?

[justasportsfan]

I could be wrong here.

But gameboy doesn't know. Neither does anyone else. That's all I'm saying.
okay, you answered my question. However it's more realitic/logical to think that it should be blamed on youth and inexperience due to rebuilding. You blamed Club Jauron.

[OpIv37]

your logic is faulty. that's like saying people who eat apples die... so apples kill people.

well, since everyone dies, and everyone who's ever eaten an apple will die... it makes sense to a point i guess.

but it's not true.

I personally don't favor overly violent practices. i think the season is tough enough, and coaches who favor them seem to think that it will make their team tougher. I disagree. I think it tends to hurt more then help at the end of the year.

That's a gross oversimplification. In your example, it's impossible to logically rule out that the apples killed people until you prove definitively what DID kill people.

Something made our team fatigue late in games in 2006 and 2007. Something made our team start slow in 2006 and 2007. Was it the Club Jauron training camp? Maybe, maybe not. My problem was that it didn't work in 06 or 07, yet Jauron went right back to it this year.

This year, the results were different. But again, that doesn't PROVE that Club Jauron wasn't the problem any more than the fact that dead people ate apples proves that apples killed them. We have more talent. We played weaker teams. We had a better hydration strategy. There were other factors beyond Club Jauron. So, it's ridiculous for gameboy to come in and declare this issue dead because the proof isn't there.

[OpIv37]

do you have evidence that you were right ?

nope, and until someone has some evidence one way or the other, gameboy has no business declaring the discussion over.

[Captain gameboy]

I have a problem with you proclaiming me to be wrong when it's impossible for you to actually have the evidence necessary to proclaim me wrong.


The proclamations have been your's Op, and there are hundreds of posts on many subjects that support that.

My point here is that the nonsense of how bad Jauron's camp was, as "proclaimed" by you, is nonsense, and I use your criteria, ( early losses and early late game fades that lead to losses), as proof.

If you want to personalize this, you are aiming at the wrong guy.

If I wanted to, I would bring out all of those quotes.

By the way.
I don't "declare the discussion over."

The facts do.

Not my style, and not why I participate.

[justasportsfan]

nope, and until someone has some evidence one way or the other, gameboy has no business declaring the discussion over.

well this first 2 games seem like evidence that swings towards gameboys side more than yours.

BY your insisting that Club Jauron was wrong, we wouldn't have even lasted 1 qtr in the heat. Not only did we last, we outplayed the Jags in the heat.

[Captain gameboy]

well this first 2 games seem like evidence that swings towards gameboys side more than yours.

BY your insisting that Club Jauron was wrong, we wouldn't have even lasted 1 qtr in the heat. Not only did we last, we outplayed the Jags in the heat.

It isn't me.

It is this team and Jauron.

All anyone can ask of any pro team is that they get what they can out of what they are given.

My point is that Op is wrong when he suggests that he has a better idea.

I think this is a good staff, not perfect, but they sure as hell knew what they were doing in camp and preseason.

Every staff should be judged on what they get out of what they have.

We are getting a lot out of what we have, and it looks like we are going to get better.

That is camp results, preseason staff work, and game prep.

That's it.
It isn't personal.

[OpIv37]

The proclamations have been your's Op, and there are hundreds of posts on many subjects that support that.

My point here is that the nonsense of how bad Jauron's camp was, as "proclaimed" by you, is nonsense, and I use your criteria, ( early losses and early late game fades that lead to losses), as proof.

If you want to personalize this, you are aiming at the wrong guy.

If I wanted to, I would bring out all of those quotes.

By the way.
I don't "declare the discussion over."

The facts do.

Not my style, and not why I participate.

The facts only declare the discussion over if you IGNORE the last two years and only focus on the last two games. You are selecting your sample size to get the conclusion that you want. I know you're smarter than that.

[Captain gameboy]

Sure Op.

You specifically mentioned, in your incessant posts, about early game results.

That's what I used because that's what you said.

[OpIv37]

I think this is a good staff, not perfect, but they sure as hell knew what they were doing in camp and preseason.

Every staff should be judged on what they get out of what they have.



First, I have to wonder why you think this is a good staff when they have yet to get results. Again, as I have already admitted, they are doing very well this year and if it keeps up, I will agree that they are a good staff. But they still haven't produced results.

Second, every staff should be judged by results. This stuff about "judged on what they get out of what they have" is what happens when Bills fans resign themselves to the fact that we can't compete with the rest of the NFL and start using lower standards to evaluate the team.

I refuse to do that. I will evaluate every team, including the Bills, by the same standard. Not "what they get out of what they have," not "given the circumstances," etc.

[OpIv37]

Sure Op.

You specifically mentioned, in your incessant posts, about early game results.

That's what I used because that's what you said.

The early games were bad for two seasons. They were good for one season. You can't just ignore the two bad seasons at this point. If Jauron is our coach for the next 5 years and we have Club Jauron every year and still start every year 2-0, then it would be a reasonable conclusion that Club Jauron was not the problem. However, with two seasons in favor of what I said and one season against, it's too early to jump to the conclusion that Club Jauron had nothing to do with the team being unprepared early in the season.

[Dr. Lecter]

The facts only declare the discussion over if you IGNORE the last two years and only focus on the last two games. You are selecting your sample size to get the conclusion that you want. I know you're smarter than that.

Except you have no evidence that your claimed reason for the slow start was the actual reason except for speculation.

The fact that they had the same camp this year and started just fine disproves your point.

[MikeInRoch]

Second, every staff should be judged by results. This stuff about "judged on what they get out of what they have" is what happens when Bills fans resign themselves to the fact that we can't compete with the rest of the NFL and start using lower standards to evaluate the team.

I refuse to do that. I will evaluate every team, including the Bills, by the same standard. Not "what they get out of what they have," not "given the circumstances," etc.

In doing that, what you are saying is that "it takes every team, no matter the talent level of the team, the injury situation, as well as other factors, the same amount of coaching to win."

That's simply a falsehood.

[jmb1099]

I don't have a problem with your personal perspective- it's your opinion and we're all entitled to them. I have a problem with gameboy trying to shut down the discussion on this subject because of his personal opinion.

And for the record, I'm not complaining, or I didn't intend to- I'm just trying to respond to the post and make it clear that the jury is still out on this matter.

And no, my job isn't as complex as being an NFL HC.
I understand. There is no way to shut down an opinion and in this we are on the same page.
I apologize if I misunderstood complaining... the truth is we had lots to complain about before this year.

It seems to me (as you said jury still out) that the problem wasn't DJ... we shall see. I am still in shock that we didn't crumble and die yesterday and we honestly look better than, well... let's just say we look really good for fear of jinxing the momentum. Not that I believe in superstition, but just in case... knock on wood etc

[Captain gameboy]

First, I have to wonder why you think this is a good staff when they have yet to get results.

We are 2-0 against playoff teams, with a road win in very difficult conditions.

What results do you want?

You can't be wacky enough to demand that training camp two a days should result in a conference championship.

You set the criteria, and it was early starts.

Now you are changing it to who knows what.

Give it up.

There is no harm in throwing it into row three when your guys are covered.

[YardRat]

Same head coach, same style training camp, different QB, different OC.....hmmmmmm?

[jmb1099]

We are 2-0 against playoff teams, with a road win in very difficult conditions.

What results do you want?

You can't be wacky enough to demand that training camp two a days should result in a conference championship.

You set the criteria, and it was early starts.

Now you are changing it to who knows what.

Give it up.

There is no harm in throwing it into row three when your guys are covered.
It seems to me that what OPi is saying is that he's not complaining now but reserves the right to in the future and that no one can or should take that from him. He is on record as disliking DJ, I bet if we hit playoffs though he'll lighten up on his stance. I don't agree with his stance as much as I understand his position on reserving the right to complain. There is a lot of football ahead of us.

[OpIv37]

In doing that, what you are saying is that "it takes every team, no matter the talent level of the team, the injury situation, as well as other factors, the same amount of coaching to win."

That's simply a falsehood.

it's simply a reality. The goal is to win games. There is no asterisk in the record book or the playoff tree for injuries or other factors.

[Captain gameboy]

It seems to me that what OPi is saying is that he's not complaining now but reserves the right to in the future and that no one can or should take that from him. He is on record as disliking DJ, I bet if we hit playoffs though he'll lighten up on his stance. I don't agree with his stance as much as I understand his position on reserving the right to complain. There is a lot of football ahead of us.

I don't think you are following this.

What Op has said is that Jauron's training camp leads to a slow start an an unprepared team-this year.

I read that.
I noticed that.
I disagree with that.

I note the start of this team this year, and I note that these comments were made this year-not last, or the year before.

You should be responsible enough to acknowledge what you post, and reasonable enough to acknowledge when facts demolish your posts.

[Michael82]

Sorry, but part of the reason the team was so atrocious with tackling was that they didn't do enough full contact, hard hitting, full pad practicing at camp. Hell, I really don't remember many times where the team actually had the players wrap up. All they did was touch tackling. :ill:

[MikeInRoch]

it's simply a reality. The goal is to win games. There is no asterisk in the record book or the playoff tree for injuries or other factors.

It's a reality that all teams take the same amount of coaching to win games? So talent is completely irrelevant? Bullhockey.

Winning a game takes a combination of coaching and player talent. Coaches can ONLY provide one part of the formula, and should only be judged on that part of the formula.

[OpIv37]

It's a reality that all teams take the same amount of coaching to win games? So talent is completely irrelevant? Bullhockey.

Winning a game takes a combination of coaching and player talent. Coaches can ONLY provide one part of the formula, and should only be judged on that part of the formula.

that is horrific spin and not even CLOSE to what I said.

A coaching staff will be judged on wins and losses. It is true that not all coaches have the same level of talent, but at the end of the day they're expected to win with what they have.

You're also forgetting that coaches have a fair amount of input on who's on the roster. To some degree, they are at the mercy of the GM, but they do get to make cuts and in most cases have a lot of say in the final makeup of the team.

[justasportsfan]

Sorry, but part of the reason the team was so atrocious with tackling was that they didn't do enough full contact, hard hitting, full pad practicing at camp. Hell, I really don't remember many times where the team actually had the players wrap up. All they did was touch tackling. :ill:
they didn't have a hard time tackling against the seashawks did they?

[Ebenezer]

We are 2-0 against playoff teams, with a road win in very difficult conditions.

What results do you want?

You can't be wacky enough to demand that training camp two a days should result in a conference championship.

You set the criteria, and it was early starts.

Now you are changing it to who knows what.

Give it up.

There is no harm in throwing it into row three when your guys are covered.


gameboy, a valiant effort but Op, and he is not the only one, is just one of those guys who could complain after a 45-10 super bowl win.

[jmb1099]

I don't think you are following this.

What Op has said is that Jauron's training camp leads to a slow start an an unprepared team-this year.

I read that.
I noticed that.
I disagree with that.

I note the start of this team this year, and I note that these comments were made this year-not last, or the year before.

You should be responsible enough to acknowledge what you post, and reasonable enough to acknowledge when facts demolish your posts.
While he doesn't need me to advocate his case and I don't buy the Club Jauron stuff, I'm not sure he ever indicated we were off to a slow start this year. I'm not sure how anyone could say that. So while I agree with you about the Club Jauron myth, I don't see where Opi said we're off to a slow start this year. He seems pretty pumped we're 2-0, it just sounds like to me he isn't ready to emotionally commit... yet

But as much as I may disagree with someone's position, they still have the right to voice their opinion. Hopefully by the end of the season we will be in a position to forget the last 10 years of nightmare, but it's going to take a really solid playoff run to accomplish that. Here's to hoping it happens...

[Michael82]

they didn't have a hard time tackling against the seashawks did they?
nope, but that is also because the Seahawks players kept dropping the ball and have no RBs. :::

[Captain gameboy]

While he doesn't need me to advocate his case and I don't buy the Club Jauron stuff, I'm not sure he ever indicated we were off to a slow start this year. I'm not sure how anyone could say that. So while I agree with you about the Club Jauron myth, I don't see where Opi said we're off to a slow start this year. He seems pretty pumped we're 2-0, it just sounds like to me he isn't ready to emotionally commit... yet

But as much as I may disagree with someone's position, they still have the right to voice their opinion. Hopefully by the end of the season we will be in a position to forget the last 10 years of nightmare, but it's going to take a really solid playoff run to accomplish that. Here's to hoping it happens...

What is the point of bringing up someone's right to voice an opinion?

Has that ever been an issue here?

Have I, or anyone else ever suggested such a thing?

The rest of your post is arguing against something I've never said.

What I did comment on was something that was brought up during the training camp period, and before.

What was said was a criticism of Jauron's camp, and the suggestion that the Bills come out slow because of it.

If there is any doubt about those, I will be glad to bring them up, but I think that most people are aware of them, and denial would be goofy.

I think that is nonsense, and there was no caveat issued form the author about this year, or last year, or the year before for that matter.

[jmb1099]

What is the point of bringing up someone's right to voice an opinion?

Has that ever been an issue here?

Have I, or anyone else ever suggested such a thing?

The rest of your post is arguing against something I've never said.

What I did comment on was something that was brought up during the training camp period, and before.

What was said was a criticism of Jauron's camp, and the suggestion that the Bills come out slow because of it.

If there is any doubt about those, I will be glad to bring them up, but I think that most people are aware of them, and denial would be goofy.

I think that is nonsense, and there was no caveat issued form the author about this year, or last year, or the year before for that matter.
I think its the tone of your thread title... you want to bury a premise and you use great arguments to make your point about the Club Jauron Myth, but it's your thread title that leads people to believe that there is nothing left to the argument and that there isn't anything left to be said about the issue. I love the position we're in and I love the direction the team appears to be heading in and it isn't often I agree with Opi on the state of the team let alone feel compelled to state his case, but to declare an argument regarding the effectiveness of training camp over reminds me of the infamous "Mission Accomplished" speech. Nothing is buried or finished simply because you say so

[OpIv37]

Ok let me straighten this out.

What I said, and I believe several others agreed, was that Club Jauron training camp was one of the reasons why we started slow in 06 and 07.

I also said that since we were skipping practices and having Club Jauron again this year, we'd start slow again. Obviously, I was wrong about that.

However, we also started against weaker teams, have more talent, and had a better hydration strategy. So, it's faulty to conclude that Club Jauron had NOTHING to do with the slow starts in 06 and 07 because there were multiple variables. It is possible that the slow starts in previous years were due to other factors, but it is logically incorrect to conclude that this year's start proves that Club Jauron is not the reason for the slow starts the past two seasons.

[Ebenezer]

I also said that since we were skipping practices and having Club Jauron again this year, we'd start slow again. Obviously, I was wrong about that.

a first time admission...:rockon:


However, we also started against weaker teams, have more talent, and had a better hydration strategy. So, it's faulty to conclude that Club Jauron had NOTHING to do with the slow starts in 06 and 07 because there were multiple variables. It is possible that the slow starts in previous years were due to other factors, but it is logically incorrect to conclude that this year's start proves that Club Jauron is not the reason for the slow starts the past two seasons.

Seattle and Jax were supposed to be tough tests. Jax on the road was....you won't give them credit for that? The Bills added too few players during the offseason to conclude they have more talent. Better hydration?? This is 2008. Teams are no longer unaware of how hot the south is or how cold and snowy the north can be in December. Complete non-sense.


It is possible that the slow starts in previous years were due to other factors, but it is logically incorrect to conclude that this year's start proves that Club Jauron is not the reason for the slow starts the past two seasons.

Your intimation, and I remember the thread, was exactly as gameboy has stated. Your implication was very real and that has been proven wrong...as will your thing about the 2 minute offense.

[Captain gameboy]

All of these are from the same author.
None from me.

Regrettably, the site allows nothing before August, because the real gems are before that.


8/11/2008

"we were doomed when Jauron became our head coach."


8-13
"Jauron runs weak camps so his teams are not prepared when the season starts"

"yeah. It was an overreaction when I:

-complained about the skipped session in OTA's
-complained about the lack of 2-a-days in camp and the general Club Jauron feel.
-complained about missing the opportunity to practice on an aspect of our team that was embarrassingly bad."

"All of this is part of a larger trend: the team not being ready early in the season. "

"The team isn't prepared to do certain things and it shows on the field. On top of that, we have a young team and you've said yourself that we're depending on "experience" and "player improvement"- well, if we're skipping practices and passing on these opportunities, where the hell is that experience and improvement supposed to come from?"

"because some coaches are just chronic failures and chronically make the same mistakes."

except that Jauron teams have a habit of blowing TO's early in games or halves.

You get better with practice. Period. Particularly with a young team. And Jauron finds every ****ing excuse possible to not practice.

Ultra-conservatism and not practicing.

8-22

“Skipped practices during OTA.
Light training camp with only 2 double sessions, on the first two days of camp.
Light workload for the starters in the first preseason game.

"[B]They may be there Sept 7 but there's nothing that makes me believe they'll be ready.”\/B]
_________________________________________________________________________

Nothing at all------except the results. My words.

[Ebenezer]

All of these are from the same author.
None from me.

Regrettably, the site allows nothing before August, because the real gems are before that.

not true...you can search further back than that.

[Captain gameboy]

not true...you can search further back than that.

Really?

I did the usual search.
I can provide way more, but I think the point is made.

[Captain gameboy]

I think its the tone of your thread title... you want to bury a premise and you use great arguments to make your point about the Club Jauron Myth, ........ but to declare an argument regarding the effectiveness of training camp over reminds me of the infamous "Mission Accomplished" speech. Nothing is buried or finished simply because you say so

I don't have any issue with this.
If you want to make the point again next year, have at it.

My only point is that Jauron and his staff know what they are doing, and there is nothing to be accomplished on a team level re conditioning during normal NFL practices.

These guys come into camp in shape, with few exceptions, and they are ready to go or they get their asses kicked.

Film study and positional meetings are very valuable.

If reps are needed, they will get them. That is what the staff gets paid to do and determine.

My assertion is that if anyone thinks that Jauron runs a camp that doesn't get the most out of what he has, then they better provide more info.

The number of two a days isn't going to get to that point with me.

If they need more two a days or more full hit practices, the staff can easily get that done.

Determining the relative readiness of the team based on a fan's viewpoint of practice schedules is kind of silly.

[Ebenezer]

Really?

I did the usual search.
I can provide way more, but I think the point is made.
yes....in your search you can choose any length of time and then choose OLDER. that will get them.

but you are correct...you have provided proof.

[Captain gameboy]

40,000 posts says you probably should be, Op.

Just reviewing.......

But this has to be the post of the year.

[OpIv37]

All of these are from the same author.
None from me.

Regrettably, the site allows nothing before August, because the real gems are before that.


8/11/2008

"we were doomed when Jauron became our head coach."


8-13
"Jauron runs weak camps so his teams are not prepared when the season starts"

"yeah. It was an overreaction when I:

-complained about the skipped session in OTA's
-complained about the lack of 2-a-days in camp and the general Club Jauron feel.
-complained about missing the opportunity to practice on an aspect of our team that was embarrassingly bad."

"All of this is part of a larger trend: the team not being ready early in the season. "

"The team isn't prepared to do certain things and it shows on the field. On top of that, we have a young team and you've said yourself that we're depending on "experience" and "player improvement"- well, if we're skipping practices and passing on these opportunities, where the hell is that experience and improvement supposed to come from?"

"because some coaches are just chronic failures and chronically make the same mistakes."

except that Jauron teams have a habit of blowing TO's early in games or halves.

You get better with practice. Period. Particularly with a young team. And Jauron finds every ****ing excuse possible to not practice.

Ultra-conservatism and not practicing.

8-22

“Skipped practices during OTA.
Light training camp with only 2 double sessions, on the first two days of camp.
Light workload for the starters in the first preseason game.

"[B]They may be there Sept 7 but there's nothing that makes me believe they'll be ready.”\/B]
_________________________________________________________________________

Nothing at all------except the results. My words.

One major problem: you're using TWO GAMES to override Jauron's results for TWO SEASONS in Buffalo and FIVE in Chicago.

If the play continues at this level, then yes, I'm wrong about all these things. If we have Club Jauron next off-season but still start strong, then maybe I'm wrong about that too.

But you're simply IGNORING YEARS OF HISTORY due to the elation of two good games.