The biggest knock against McGahee

[ArcticWildMan]

While he has all the potential in the world if he heals from his injury, my biggest worry is what a factor he may become in team harmony (or should I say, DISharmony).

TD and GW may be walking a thin line with this pick. Everybody has seen Henry's comments and he's not happy.

There already seems to be a divide here on the board about the pick.

Imagine what it's like on the team? I highly doubt the fans are the only ones who have mixed feelings. I'm sure there are guys on the team that dislike this pick as much as some people here do. THAT is not good for team chemistry and may cause problems.

I'm sure one or two of the more vocal McGahee supporters ;) will immediately discredit this idea, but it is a factor whether they want to admit it or not.

[ublinkwescore]

This pick signifies TD's confidence in the fact that our team's wholes have adequately been filled.

I wouldn't be surprised if we try to trade Olandis Gary going into Training camp for a safety.

[The Spaz]

I've already discredited it:) Go Bills!

[BillsMan80]

It isn't a factor unless someone makes it out to be. In particular, Travis Henry. Or he can just suck it up and understand it's nothing against him, rather, it's just taking a stud like McGahee as the BPA.

[Ebenezer]

Gary will not be traded. Few were lining up to get him before the draft. He had zero trade value.

I agree AWM, what does this say when you use a 1st round choice to potentially replace a 1400+ rusher who was 5th in the NFL last year. Tells me that the revolving door is open. We may sign free agents but they will not be our own.

[Tatonka]

travis henry will be fine.. do you really think travis is the type of player that is going to whine? he made some initial off the cuff remarks when a reporter called him right after the draft.. so what.. anyone would do that..

but he is a team player.. he will not let this effect the team and he is still the unquestioned starter..

so where is the problem?

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by Ebenezer
Tells me that the revolving door is open. We may sign free agents but they will not be our own.

um.. last i check.. henry has gone no where.. so what exactly shows you that this proverbial revolving door is open?

i just dont even get that comment.. we may sign free agents but they will not be our own?

for the life of me, i really cant understand how this is a bad thing.. you guys are all worried about TH like he is your son or something.. and you are assuming that he is gonna get his feeling hurt and respond in a bad way. he made one comment.. and you guys are pulling the worst part of the comment.. not accounting for the portion where he said, he is a team player, he will welcome WM to the team and looks forward to competing with him..

what in TH's history shows you that he CANT step up to competition? he did it in college and did it his first two years here..and he can continue to do it.. but it probably WONT EVEN BE AN ISSUE THIS YEAR.. WM may not even see the field this year.

bottom line is.. if travis wants to keep his job secure, then RUSH US INTO THE SUPERBOWL.. what is wrong with that??

[ArcticWildMan]

Did you read his comments? Travis is pissed!!! He said he wouldn't have signed the extension if he had known they were going to sign McGahee. Just look at the press. They are already making a deal out of this pick and how Travis feels and it's not even training camp!!!

You can say Travis will suck it up, all you want, but his statements show he is upset. The guy is a person, not a machine. It's human nature, for cripes sake, for him to be upset.

[ArcticWildMan]

The arguing in this thread just proves my point. While maybe not on the same scale, we have another Flutie/Johnson fiasco on our hands. This is exactly how the we were torn apart last time.

It has been shown that the divide the fans had for the the two QB's was also as developed in the locker room. What makes you think that the guys on the team don't feel the same way this time since this appears to be a love/hate type of deal like last time?

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by ArcticWildMan
Did you read his comments? Travis is pissed!!! He said he wouldn't have signed the extension if he had known they were going to sign McGahee. Just look at the press. They are already making a deal out of this pick and how Travis feels and it's not even training camp!!!

You can say Travis will suck it up, all you want, but his statements show he is upset. The guy is a person, not a machine. It's human nature, for cripes sake, for him to be upset.

OF COARSE HE IS PISSED!!! that quote was literally minutes after the pick was made.. he was shocked, stunned as most of america was..

but EVEN THEN .. minutes afterwards, while he was so "pissed" he went on to say that he is looking forward to the competition, and he will welcome WM, and is looking forward to working with him.

THEN it was reported by espn on sunday when they spoke to him and his agent that he was much more diplomatic about the whole thing.

he is a competitor.. sure he feels slighted.. and he will feel that much better when he blows away the competition and tears it up this year.. like he has done in the past.. and if he doesnt do that, then we still have a good RB on the field.. maybe one that wont put the ball on teh ground seemingly EVERY GAME...

[HenryRules]

The reason its getting so much press right now is because there's no other news. Even McGee gets a full-page write-up, tell me that's gonna happen in the middle of the season.

[Tatonka]

a qb controversy is totaly different than a rb competition.. 2 qbs cant play and lead a team..

neither RB is a leader on this team.. drew is our unquestioned leader.. and both RBs can play .. just like barlow and hearst if need be.

i dont care.. i just want to win.. and i think you guys are blowing this way out of perportion.. players know this is a business.. and henry is not a whiner.. he will move on and perform well.

[ArcticWildMan]

Well...if Travis doesn't come out and set the field on fire, the press is going to start predicting the next season rushing total for McGahee.

It's almost a lose/lose situation for Henry. I don't know if he can shake it off once he has a fumble and the calls for McGahee start ringing out.

It could be very ugly.

[Dozerdog]

If anything-


Travis Henry is the bad guy here. He's a professional athlete, the only person who is going to disrupt the locker room is him.

Did travis Henry give a :angry: about Morris and Bryson's feelings getting hurt when he was selected? Did he care about AVP's feelings when the Bills aquired Bledsoe? If he wanted to be the ultimate team player- he would have kept his big mouth shut when somebody slaps a microphone in his face.

If I were an athlete, I would be smart and make myself scarce during the draft- regardless of sport- there will always be a media angle trying to get a sound byte out of you- most of the time it's negative.

Stop being a baby. Want the job? Go get it.

[HenryRules]

There won't be any calls for McGahee this season because he won't be on the roster.

Once you're on IR or PUP, you're pretty much forgotten by the press - even a guy like Cowart wasn't brought up in the news that often.

[Tatonka]

speak the truth Doz.. speak the truth..

AWM.. honestly.. i think you are really the most upset about this.. and are really the only one that is hell bent on making your point on this..

so to your arguement that the fans are so divided and therefore the team will be to.. i just dont buy it.. im sorry..

the vets on this team will not let henry ruin their chance to win a SB by whining.. i bet you they say to him pretty much what Doz just said.. but i think henry is bigger than that.. and he will do well and keep his mouth shut from this point on ..

bet your ass that TD will address this , and i know for a fact that someone has already called henry to tell him to stfu.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by HenryRules
There won't be any calls for McGahee this season because he won't be on the roster.

Once you're on IR or PUP, you're pretty much forgotten by the press - even a guy like Cowart wasn't brought up in the news that often.

that is another point i tried to make earlier.. we will just get the "Mcgahee is doing fine in rehab" lines.. and henry will be the unquestioned this year.

therefore, he wont whine.

[HenryRules]

the other problem with the Flutie/Johnson thing is that the FO and coaching staff never made a decision on who the starter was - the roles of both players were constantly up in the air.

I haven't heard a single comment from any member of the organization where they have not said that Henry is the starter this season.

[Tatonka]

TD said last night on the show that is posted on the web site that TH is the starter, and that they have talked to him... and there is not an issue..

[Dozerdog]

I'd only get upset at this pick if we didn't draft an OBVIOUS need.


The only one remotely worthy of the 23rd slot was Kelsey- and we got him anyway. I was praying on DeWayne White, but 32 teams passed on him- some 3-4 times (who had a need for him) so I'll be content with the knowledge that I really don't have any :)

Name the guy we should have picked there.


It's like the argument AGAINST getting Bledsoe last season. Most of those folks will complain about losing 8 games, yet I doubt we would have won 4-5 without him.

Tell us what should have been done. Then we can debate it. We got potentially the next Barry Sanders for NOTHING. 60 days ago, we had a WR who was not going to return to the team- lost in FA. Now we got the best Running back in the draft-.

[Lone Stranger]

Guys and gals I think the biggest problem is going to be McGahee's contract. His agent is looking short term. Envision the possibility of the Bills rehabbing him and his leaving after three years.

I also believe the value of this pick must be weighed against the success of William Joseph in future years. He was out there.

[HenryRules]

Drafting Joseph, while a reasonable option, would not have been without its downfalls either. For 2 years min., we would be paying 1st round money for the 3rd DT in our rotation, which already has 2 young guys as backups in Bannan and Edwards who have done well enough to be worthy of playing those roles.

[Dozerdog]

Originally posted by fmr60
Guys and gals I think the biggest problem is going to be McGahee's contract. His agent is looking short term. Envision the possibility of the Bills rehabbing him and his leaving after three years.


The genius in all of this-

1) He's going to be low balled by TD- Play for pay type contract laden with incentives. If he makes the comeback and hits the incentives, we shuffle Henry off for picks in a deeper draft (2004?)
Plus, there will be extra money- Henry won't be here. He will be a Bill for a while if the Bills eventually pick him.

2) Say Drew Rosenhaus tries to play hard ball and holds McGahee out- that's more healing time that cost the Bills NOTHING.

3) If it gets ugly, we trade McGahee's rights off- even a 2nd in next season's deep draft will be about equall in this year's watered down draft.



My only apprehension on this is that we like McG, he wins the job, has a great 2004/2005- and falls apart injury wise. Then we run the risk of losing 2 excellent backs. But, I'm sure with the pick TD would have acquired for Henry, we would draft Maurice Clarett of Ohio State.

:D

[WG]

Originally posted by Tatonka
travis henry will be fine.. do you really think travis is the type of player that is going to whine? he made some initial off the cuff remarks when a reporter called him right after the draft.. so what.. anyone would do that..

but he is a team player.. he will not let this effect the team and he is still the unquestioned starter..

so where is the problem?

The problem T will be next year after Henry becomes one of the top 2 RBs this season and everyone's scratching their heads as to what to do w/ McGahee!

What will he be worth if he doesn't first prove he can play over a sustained time here?

What if he "stubs his toe" even let alone sustains another injury more serious on the cold, hard RWS turf vice the nice soft sod down in Miami?

I really would have liked to have seen E.J. Henderson in our middle!

[Dozerdog]

If EJH Is all that and a bag of chips, why did he last until the second round in a weak draft?

[Dozerdog]

Welcome back, wing king!:wave:

[WG]

Originally posted by Dozerdog


The genius in all of this-

1) He's going to be low balled by TD- Play for pay type contract laden with incentives. If he makes the comeback and hits the incentives, we shuffle Henry off for picks in a deeper draft (2004?)
Plus, the re will be extra money- Henry won't be here.

2) Say Drew Rosenhaus tries to play hard ball and holds McGahee out- that's more healing time that cost the Bills NOTHING.

3) If it gets ugly, we trade McGahee's rights off- even a 2nd in next season's deep draft will be about equall in this year's watered down draft.



My only apprehension on this is that we like McG, he wins the job, has a great 2004/2005- and falls apart injury wise. Then we run the risk of losing 2 excellent backs. But, I'm sure with the pick TD would have acquired for Henry, we would draft Maurice Clarett of Ohio State.

:D

Your apprehension is very valid and what makes this pick highly suspect!

If we drafted McGahee only to trade him, then that doesn't help us this season. I'm sure there were players whom we could have taken to help us both this and next/upcoming seasons: Bailey, Henderson to name two.

[ArcticWildMan]

Well...as far as McGahe'se scum agent...Rosenhaus can't really rake us over the coals for a huge contract. TD has 22 other teams before us that will set the pay scale for the 23rd pick. The sticking point may be the duration, but it's pretty common for a first round pick to be at least 4 years, so we should be OK there.

[Dozerdog]

It would have been a waste of value.


Sam Aiken will help this team this year and next. We didn't use a first on him because it's a waste.

I think you meant OLB? We have an investment in London at MLB, and Spikes/Posey.

[HenryRules]

I don't see how Bailey or Henderson could have done anything except put us into cap trouble 2 or 3 years down the road with 4 LBs all making pretty good money.

[WG]

Thanks DD!!



Originally posted by Dozerdog
If EJH Is all that and a bag of chips, why did he last until the second round in a weak draft?

B/c there was a flurry of DBs and DLs taken.

Why did Kelsay last until mid-second if he was supposed to be as good as several DLs taken before him??

We had just better hope that Fletcher doesn't play the way he did last year or we're gonna be wishing that we had taken EJ. Bailey would have been

[Dozerdog]

Drafting is all about improving the team.


Sure, we could have selected a position and improved it- making that unit go from mediocre to average. But to take a very good unit and turn it into the #1 into potentially the #1 overall in the league- you got to do it!

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by Wys Guy


Your apprehension is very valid and what makes this pick highly suspect!

If we drafted McGahee only to trade him, then that doesn't help us this season. I'm sure there were players whom we could have taken to help us both this and next/upcoming seasons: Bailey, Henderson to name two.

i knew it had been too quite in here :D

welcome back Wys..

i guess the bottom line is.. the best man will be our back.. the other one will have some value.. and even if he doesnt.. oh well.. a wasted 1st rounder that we got for free from atlanta for a player that we were going to lose..

i just refuse to not get excited about having 2 potential superstar running backs..

[Dozerdog]

Kelsey would have been 3rd rounder in almost any other year- and there was a run on a lot of questionable DL's BECAUSE this was a weak draft.

Fletch was a product of no DL help. Hell, he broke the team record for tackles. That's a dissapointing season?

Would we be having htis argument if TD traded the 23rd pick for a first next season? The Pats did that with Baltimore- it was a brilliant move.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by Wys Guy
Thanks DD!!




B/c there was a flurry of DBs and DLs taken.

Why did Kelsay last until mid-second if he was supposed to be as good as several DLs taken before him??

We had just better hope that Fletcher doesn't play the way he did last year or we're gonna be wishing that we had taken EJ. Bailey would have been

see.. now we are talking about back ups still.. and who am i to argue with TD's judge of talent? he took the best player available to help this team.. none of the players you listed would have necessarily played this year, even if healthy..

[WG]

Originally posted by Dozerdog
It would have been a waste of value.


Sam Aiken will help this team this year and next. We didn't use a first on him because it's a waste.

I think you meant OLB? We have an investment in London at MLB, and Spikes/Posey.

I gotta tell ya, and you know this, but I'm not sold on Fletcher at MLB. For sure we can find better and IMO EJ is just as good now.

Posey? Way too many people are putting way too much credence in a man who's had only one good season in 6 and in a system that is vastly different than ours.

Talk is cheap. So far Fletcher hasn't done much nor has Posey.

Proven D players: Adams, PW, Spikes, Winfield, Clements, and PP IMO.

I'd say Schobel is too but I'd like to see another such year outta him before handing him the starting keys for 8 years.

Posey, Fletcher, other DE, and one S position should all be competed IMO. Fletcher has no one but Spoon pushing him and isn't versatile enough to play OLB.

[Dozerdog]

Define "Not Much" Wys-


I define "Did Something" as breaking the team record for tackles in a season....

[BillsNYC]

wow...i can't believe it....but i fully agree with tatonka here. the Bills did nothing but make our team better. there will be no running back controversy, because RB is a totally different role than QB. The Bills took the best player available, and the best available BY FAR. things will play out and Henry now knows hes gotta get control of his fumbling problem and that hes gonna be pushed as hard as he was in college.

[Dozerdog]

Originally posted by Wys Guy



Talk is cheap. So far Fletcher hasn't done much nor has Posey.

Proven D players: Adams, PW, Spikes, Winfield, Clements, and PP IMO.



Prioleau is a proven player? More proven than Fletcher?

[WG]

Originally posted by Tatonka


see.. now we are talking about back ups still.. and who am i to argue with TD's judge of talent? he took the best player available to help this team.. none of the players you listed would have necessarily played this year, even if healthy..

I'll judge TD's assessment of talent.

Other than a completely "no-brainer" of a 4th overall last year and one of the top offensive players who slipped having nothing to do w/ TD, last year's draft is anything but impressive.

This year nothing obvious slipped and we didn't have a top 5 and look what we got;

A Corey Moore clone w/ half the talent;

A Denney clone w/ injury concerns and not enough speed to do what we need in a DE.

An injured RB who's entire hangs upon what a bunch of doctors have said. Unfortunately those doctors have often been wrong in the past and if you ask ex-players, they also don't have the players' best interests in mind. So pardon me if my credibility in those "doctors" is somewhat less than entirely trusting. ;)

4th: Come on, can anyone honestly say that they are impressed w/ our 4th rounders? Honestly? If so, then I'd say they're merely expressing blind loyalty.

Our first two selections have varying degrees of injury concerns!

I'll question it indeed.

As to someone's notion that we didn't draft Henderson or Bailey due to "future cap concerns", well, to that I only say why even have a team if that is the way we approach the draft. Trade away all of our picks for players we can afford now then.

[Ingtar33]

Yikes Wys...

Didn't you complain that Fletch was too slow? Because the biggest knock on Henderson is that he's slower than mud... I mean Flech did run a 4.3 in the 40, and Henderson ran a 4.85 (slower than every draft pick except Sape and Sobieski we made this year, and about as fast as DE Suggs). We'd be getting slower to no benefit. Furthermore, while Henderson is a good player, LBs almost never make an impact their rookie year, making them poor value picks most of the time.

BTW: I’m putting together the AFC East draft review, and the Bills far and away picked the fastest draft class of the division.

[Earthquake Enyart]

:angry: Patriots.

I never felt 100% comfortable with Henry as the feature back anyhow. He doesn't catch all that well, and he can't block at all. While the jury will be out on McGahee's catching ability, the guy can block.

I just hope the Bills doctors know what they are looking at. :nurse: If they do, people will be talking about this TD steal for years.

[Ingtar33]

A Denney clone w/ injury concerns and not enough speed to do what we need in a DE. (wys, Kelsay has one of the fastest first steps you'll ever see and ran a 4.7 flat in the 40, which is faster than every other DLman on the team)

[Tatonka]

ok.. i can feel my irritation level rising now that wys has jumped in..

i am talking about TDs talent evaluation of the last two drafts.. you know the ones that netted us 8 starters..

and as soon as you stated that Prioleau is a PROVEN player, and stated that Fletcher is NOT.. i dedided that you are high on crack cocain or wys sauce or something.. you cant honestly mean that.. so i will let you come down before i freak out.

:D

:calm:

[HenryRules]

wys, if you don't consider the team's future, then what do you consider at the draft?

[ArcticWildMan]

Since we are on Kelsay....which DE is going to be cut? We have too many right now. Is Denney a goner (I doubt it, but you never know)?

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by Earthquake Enyart
:While the jury will be out on McGahee's catching ability, the guy can block.

I just hope the Bills doctors know what they are looking at. :nurse: If they do, people will be talking about this TD steal for years.

WM caught ever single one of the 50 passes thrown to him in his workout..

and he was a fullback the year that Miami won the championship, so i am pretty sure he can block.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by ArcticWildMan
Since we are on Kelsay....which DE is going to be cut? We have too many right now. Is Denney a goner (I doubt it, but you never know)?

depending on how well kelsay shows himself early on..

i would say the guys in danger of being cut are in this order.

irons
mckenzie
denny
jones

but they may chose to keep one less person at another spot to make room for the extra de too.. :idunno:

[WG]

We'll see Ing.

From ESPN:

"Henderson is a big, strong, active, physical, aggressive, instinctive linebacker with excellent vision, awareness and game speed. He anticipates well and knows just when to hit the hole to get into the backfield and make plays for negative yardage. He covers much more ground than his speed would indicate and is a nonstop hustle guy. He can stack and shed at the point of attack, uses his hands well to shed and has a short, explosive burst to the ball. A quick-twitch type of athlete, he is adequate in pass coverage and can blitz. He can also get outside at times. Is willing to play hurt."

Living in the D.C. area, that's all I've heard about for the past two seasons now, and telling you after having watched him play, there's no way that in two seasons Fletcher will be better than EJ. I'd put very large amounts of cash on that barring injury.

His speed knock is sideline to sideline, and all I can say to all those who have said that LF has sts speed is "what games were you watching!" He was as slow as molasses in all the games that I saw and I saw 15 of 16.

We'll see. Time will bear all this out. EJ was a projected first round pick thru most of the pre-draft. I think many were surprised that he didn't go in the first. He'll start in Minnesota right from the get go, so we'll see who's right at midseason. He was also the first MLB to go.

[colin]

This agent of McGahee can't even try to hold TD's jock.

TD could win a waiting contest, and will offer a contract that a confident player will look at and think it will make them big money. The more hardball this goof tries to play with the harball champ, the more he is gonna get is candy ass kicked.

[WG]

Kelsay won't even start this year.

If he plays at all it'll be in a limited role as a backup.

[Tatonka]

that is why ej was not even the first MLB to go off the board.

[Ingtar33]

infact here are the 40 times for some of our DEs

Denney 4.86
Schobel 4.75
Kelsay 4.70

[WG]

If McGahee tries contract nonsense they just won't sign him this year. He isn't going to play until midseason anyway. He can get paid, or work at McD's to live.

[colin]

Who was that goof LT that Wys was big on in the last draft?

From UF or FSU?

[HenryRules]

Kelsay has a better chance to play than EJ would have.

[WG]

Forty schmorty!

Everything changes when you get to the pros. Players from rounds 5-7 become starters while half the guys drafted in round 1 become stiffs.

If all we base things on is a 40 time, then everything changes. I think anyone who truly believes that Kelsay is the "speed DE" that we've been lacking is fooling themselves.

Barring that, and barring Jones' healing and getting back to form, sweeps may be very effective against the Bills this season.

But if Kelsay ends up starting over Jones, then Jones' pickup was a waste, which also says little for that move. I'm just tired of grabbing injured people. How about getting some guys who can either avoid injuries or play while hurt!

BTW, reading that description of EJ above, Fletcher is far from that player!

[ArcticWildMan]

Damn. Denney is a sluggo compared to Kelsay :eek:

[The Natrix]

wys, you are correct that Posey only had one good year.

How many has Henry had?

[WG]

Originally posted by HenryRules
Kelsay has a better chance to play than EJ would have.

Perhaps initially. But after a bunch of weeks, I couldn't disagree more. Fletcher's weaknesses are gonna be far more evident this season. Last year everyone wrote off all of our premier players' inadequacies due to the poor DL. Well, that won't be the case this year. No one on offense or defense will be able to hide behind anything.

Players' weaknesses will be their own, no one else's!

Fletcher doesn't have as much speed as many of you believe he does.

If you think Kelsay's gonna start, I'd wager some bucks on that?

[WG]

Originally posted by The Natrix
wys, you are correct that Posey only had one good year.

How many has Henry had?

1 for 50% of his playing time in the NFL.

At that stage of Posey's career, you could have considered Posey a complete bust based on any measure of success in the NFL.

[HenryRules]

Posey has had a good year 50% of his year's playing LB.

[WG]

Originally posted by Tatonka


depending on how well kelsay shows himself early on..

i would say the guys in danger of being cut are in this order.

irons
mckenzie
denny
jones

but they may chose to keep one less person at another spot to make room for the extra de too.. :idunno:

Denney's toast! Last year's highly touted 3rd round steal down the tubes!

McK won't get cut, we just signed him. Same w/ Jones. Only way Jones goes is if he gets hurt again. Irons maybe. But only b/c of our other sub-starter/backup talent there.

[WG]

Originally posted by HenryRules
Posey has had a good year 50% of his year's playing LB.

Is this an admission that your argument is as ridiculous as putting pants on a fish? ;)

What's next? He has a nice personality!

:rolleyes:

OK, by your own admission then, Henry's worth as much as Posey!

[HenryRules]

Actually, I was talking about how irrelevant your argument was. Its pointless to argue someone's utility based on their experience at a different position. Discussing Posey's lack of success as a lineman is irrelevant, he's playing LB for us.

I did not compare Henry to Posey, you did, I simply pointed out that there were errors in your comparison.

[Ingtar33]

Wys, those "draft" guides are always glowing... the Henderson I saw was an aggressive, competent player, who dominated due to the slower speeds at college. Once he's in the NFL he'll have problems fighting through the bigger blockers (he liked to bowl them over in college), and getting outside on the faster RBs.

That said he has the instincts to be a good LB, and will probably press Beikert (or however you spell that name) right off the bat for th starting MLB spot.

But to compare Fletch, a guy who has wracked up 3 straight 100 tackle seasons, is a super bowl champ and a guy the Rams still miss and complain about not having to a rookie who hasn't played a down in he NFL is a little bit crazy.

And that goes for the people who assume that McGahee is going to be better than Travis. I need to see him play before making that jump. Just because a guy looks like the second coming of Marshal Faulk in college doesn't mean he will be.

The same goes for Chris Kelsay, just because he looks like Grant Winstrom or god forbid Ryan Denney doesn't mean its gonna happen. He’s Chris Kelsay, and his career and future is entirely in his hands.

Lets try not to pre-judge these guys, and doom them to failure in our minds until you’ve seen them play in the NFL. My job is nothing more than fortune telling, but in reality, the only way any NFL team is even remotely successful is because every player we review is reviewed by everyone, that way the “group” mind and eyes catch everything, digest it in our own ways an hash it out until we think we’ve graded them appropriately.

[Dozerdog]

Originally posted by Wys Guy



But if Kelsay ends up starting over Jones, then Jones' pickup was a waste, which also says little for that move. I'm just tired of grabbing injured people. How about getting some guys who can either avoid injuries or play while hurt!

BTW, reading that description of EJ above, Fletcher is far from that player!

Wys- I'll pose yet another question for you to avoid- since you won't acknowledge that Fletcher had the best season of any defender in 44 seasons of Buffalo Bills history with a team record 193 tackles.


You say "Jones' pickup was a waste" if he doesn't play for us or recover from injuries.

What waste? Not a dime of cap space was wasted, not a single pick. Just the cost of the surgery and the laundry bill on some jerseys.


Pleeeeeaaassseee!!!!! Justify some of these ridiculous comments!

[Dozerdog]

Oh, and I forgot- Pierson Priloleau a proven defender? :huh:

[The Natrix]

wys, Fletcher will be fine. He was good last year with hardly anything around him. Now look at the roster.

[The Natrix]

Pierson P sucks

[TypicalBill]

Shouldn't we give Denney more than one season and then judge if he's a bust or not? a lot of players didn't perform like they were supposed to as rookies but got the hang of it in their 2nd or 3rd year. Im not quitting on him just yet.

[Earthquake Enyart]

Originally posted by Dozerdog


since you won't acknowledge that Fletcher had the best season of any defender in 44 seasons of Buffalo Bills history with a team record 193 tackles.




The best season of any defender?

Remember a guy named Bruce? :eek:

[Dozerdog]

In terms of tackles.

[Dozerdog]

Otherwise, you would have to put in Bryce Paup's 17 1/2 sacks in the mix as well

[WG]

Originally posted by HenryRules
Actually, I was talking about how irrelevant your argument was. Its pointless to argue someone's utility based on their experience at a different position. Discussing Posey's lack of success as a lineman is irrelevant, he's playing LB for us.

I did not compare Henry to Posey, you did, I simply pointed out that there were errors in your comparison.

OK then, start naming all the players who were selected in rounds 2 and below who played LB in college who are now starting in the NFL at 6'/235 lbs. or less and making a big splash?

[WG]

Originally posted by Dozerdog


Wys- I'll pose yet another question for you to avoid- since you won't acknowledge that Fletcher had the best season of any defender in 44 seasons of Buffalo Bills history with a team record 193 tackles.


You say "Jones' pickup was a waste" if he doesn't play for us or recover from injuries.

What waste? Not a dime of cap space was wasted, not a single pick. Just the cost of the surgery and the laundry bill on some jerseys.


Pleeeeeaaassseee!!!!! Justify some of these ridiculous comments!

OK, gladly!

At last check Jones is getting paid this season, no?
If he gets paid ~ what Posey is getting yet is only a backup, then I'd say it's a waste. Call me crazy.

Your assumption that I was talking about last year is poor.

With our DL last year and w/ the OLBs that we had, if any MLB hadn't made 193 tackles then it would have been an absolute Joke!

There were plenty of key tackles that he missed too! Did ya happen to catch any of those? Or were you wearing your rose colored glasses all season long?

Funny, our D sucks when we're talking about Bledsoe, but it becomes remarkably better when the discussion revolves around Fletcher...

Interesting Klink!

[HenryRules]

What does that have to do with Posey or McGahee? Try and stay on track.

[WG]

Originally posted by Dozerdog
Oh, and I forgot- Pierson Priloleau a proven defender? :huh:

Again, I caveated that w/ an "IMO." Take that away if you want to. It doesn't alter the argument. Talk about tangents!

OK, you love Fletcher and think he's a PB LB. We get the idea. How about waiting to see how he actually plays now that he isn't in a position to "have to" make every play on the field while being the best positioned player to do it. Let's see how many times he beats a DE or OLB to the battle this season.

[Ingtar33]

OK then, start naming all the players who were selected in rounds 2 and below who played LB in college who are now starting in the NFL at 6'/235 lbs. or less and making a big splash?

ummm... Fletcher wasn't drafted and was 5'10" 225lbs when he walked onto the Rams

Zack Thomas was a 5th rounder and is 5'11" and 235lbs when he went...

[WG]

BTW,

The Sporting News pretty much agrees w/ my assessment of this draft for the Bills. Their first line of their analysis was:

"It's a good thing the Bills didn't need a lot of immediate help because they didn't get much."



Originally posted by The Natrix
wys, Fletcher will be fine. He was good last year with hardly anything around him. Now look at the roster.

Let's hope so Natrix, let's hope so. B/c we have no option if he doesn't.

What's funny is that many said Fletcher was fine, but then when I sat down to watch games w/ some folks and pointed out play after play where he was slow, they all said, "dang, you're right!"

Shazzam!!!

I know he had to do everyone's work, and maybe he got fatigued and that was the reason why he was slow. A very viable excuse. But slow he was! I'm willing to wait and see. Like I said, there'll be precious little excuse to hide behind this year for anyone.

Drew: No excuses if he throws 15 INTs again in 7 losses.

Fletcher: No excuses if he's slow w/ Spikes and Posey to the sides, Adams and Williams in front.

No excuses for the secondary not making any INTs in 14 games w/ the DL and LBs that they'll have this year.

[ArcticWildMan]

Man!!! Has this thread left out any of our players? We have gone from McGahee to Henry, to Fletcher, to Prieleau, to Posey, to Jones, to Bledsoe.

Who's next? :D

[Ingtar33]

BTW... where've you been wys, missed the conversation… :biggrin:

[WG]

Originally posted by Ingtar33


ummm... Fletcher wasn't drafted and was 5'10" 225lbs when he walked onto the Rams

Zack Thomas was a 5th rounder and is 5'11" and 235lbs when he went...

Come on Ing! So essentially what you're saying is that we need to wait several years for Crowell to put on weight?

As well, Crowell doesn't even remotely fit the mold of a MLB. If you honestly think that he could play MLB then I won't even comment. Even at 6'0" and 240 he'd get killed there!

Fletcher is a plug at 5'9"/245 and ZT the same. Thomas plays with an intensity that is rare. Many here don't even think he's that good. I disagree, but in any case, if your point is that he needs to gain weight to be effective, then as stated, we agree. The big question is then whether or not he'd lose speed. If so, I'd wager he won't be on the team in '05. That's all.

Caveat things anyway that you want, I still think that in rounds 1-3 we could have made better selections!

And anyone saying that Fletcher is as good as EJ Henderson hasn't seen Henderson play! There's no comparison! We'll find that out this year when he's on Minnesota. Vikes, right?

[WG]

Originally posted by Ingtar33
BTW... where've you been wys, missed the conversation… :biggrin:

Indeed!

Just busy. It's been a nuthouse. Just trying to catch up between flurries. The season's now approaching...

:scared:

LOL

[Dozerdog]

Originally posted by Wys Guy


Again, I caveated that w/ an "IMO." Take that away if you want to. It doesn't alter the argument. Talk about tangents!

OK, you love Fletcher and think he's a PB LB. We get the idea. How about waiting to see how he actually plays now that he isn't in a position to "have to" make every play on the field while being the best positioned player to do it. Let's see how many times he beats a DE or OLB to the battle this season.

No one called him a Pro Bowl Linebacker- you just made that up. All we said is that he's a proven player- More than PP for sure!



And if you think Prileau is a proven player, then your judgement in sportswriters is even worse. If Peter Prisco says we are making a big mistake, then we must be doing something right.

[Ingtar33]

Wys... read my review of the picks on the front page... I don't really say anything about Crowell, other than he's good enough to back up all three LBers, and that if he adds some weight then he'd be able to challenge Posey for the SLB, primarily because of his quickness.

In reality, I think he was taken for the depth, outstanding special teams play, his good speed, and smarts, and incase you're wondering we had him rated higher than where the Bills got him.

[WG]

BTW, I wasn't going by your article, I was going by thread posts.

The PP thing is simply MO. As to "ratings", I mean how many busts do I have to list to indicate that those are mere opinions?

Look at Leaf for cryin' out loud! One of the biggest busts in modern day football. There are many every year. McK, whom BTW I said was WAY overrated last year while getting equally berated for it, was also supposed to be, by many here as well, some modern day physical marvel and OT wonderment! He sucks too for a variety of reasons. Let's see if he can even approach his hype this season.

Prisco's been right often as well. No one is right all the time or anywhere close to it. Many site Pasquerelli, but I've seen him wrong as often as the others.

I guess my big problem w/ this draft is that it offers us nothing for this season barring extremely unusual occurrences.

I think Fletcher is way overrated, you and others don't.
I think there's gonna be a huge problem trying to solve the Henry/McGahee playing time problem barring an injury to one or the other, others don't apparently.
I think PP will be fine at S, others don't. I felt the same about Carpenter and others/coaching didn't, so he went to Atlanta and played very, very well.
I think Price is no where near starting #1 WR material while others do.
I thought Newman was fine, coaching apparently felt that Robinson was better. I even said he was washed up when he came here last year. They saw it differently! Who was right?

We've seen some of this bear itself out, while others remain to be seen this season.

[WG]

Oh yeah, obviously I've been wrong too. I didn't think Henry would play as well as he did last year. WAY off!

On the same basis however, can't we say that Winfield is not that good b/c he never makes INTs?

I disagree. We'll see how he does this season w/ a line and some LBs. Same for PP. You can't put him in a D like Minnesota's and then say he sucks w/o any support from the front 7. Yet, that's what we do here in Buffalo. It's all measured by tackles only by a MLB w/ Robinson to one side and 3 DL-men that shouldn't even be starting or too young in front of him. Then when he makes 108 solo tackles anything at all special???

That's not even 7 solo tackles a game and for no lack of opportunities!

149 total tackles. Big Deal for a MLB w/ no D around him. His 193 were in St. Louis w/ a decent D around him.

We'll see how he does this year, but I ain't holdin' my breath.

[Ingtar33]

How can Fletch be over rated if he hasn't been to a pro-bowl? I think I speak for most people here when I say I'm happy with Fletch's play in the 2nd half of the season.

McGahee will sit this year so that’s not a prob

PP is an awful FS, but I love his run support... if only he'd stop biting on play fakes...

I agree with you on Price, Donahoe robbed the Falcons blind

Newman was ill suited for this defense... you can say the coaches didn't use him right or that Newman didn't try to learn a marginally different position... Personally, I think he just couldn't beat a RT/TE or FB one-on-one, which nullified him completely from the defense (since often the SLB is required to take on the RT/TE/FB in this scheme)

[WG]

And Newman is different from Posey how...?

The play of the entire D improved over the season! We had a LOT of youth and they started to gel. Our rush D got remarkably better.

SO:

There are two possibilities:

First, the young and inexperienced DL started to play better...

or...

It was all due to Fletcher when he started to play better.

I'll opt for the latter since it makes perfect sense and since the improved play of the rush D had little to do with Fletcher. Therefore, I'll credit Fletcher's improved play to the overall improvement of the general D. Not visa versa. I've held that position since it happened. It makes absolutely no sense to state otherwise.

However, in this world where nothing Bledsoe does is his fault and all everyone else's, I understand that viewpoint. I cannot agree with it, but I understand it.

[Ingtar33]

Oh thats a funny one... :biggrin:

I said nothing about his play vs the rest of the defense...

Fletcher started to make plays because he stopped "thinking" and got used to the defense, then he started to react... as a result he wasn't a step behind everything and positively flew to he ball. That of course helped the defense to have the centerpiece playing like a pro and not some wide eyed rookie.

As to the rest, I didn't see too much improvement in the defense over the season except...

Winfield came back from an injury... Wire adjusted to his new position to the point he was making plays not just racking up tackles... Schobel finally started to look like a 3 down lineman as he started to make plays in the running game too... Pat Williams laid the smack down all year long, getting stronger as the season went... Watson was finally replaced in the nickel... and Grey finally started to get aggressive with the play calling.

Throw in some awful weather (wind mainly) in the last few weeks and you have the defensive improvement.

[Ingtar33]

As to Newman vs Posey... I'm not sure... a 3-4 OLB should have been able to make the transition to the 46 SLB, the duties and responsibilities are very similar... I'm not sure why Newman failed, other than the fact he couldn't hold the point against any blocker.

It is that very same unknown that makes me glad we drafted two LBers who could play that spot if needed. I'm worried too, afraid that Posey will also fail, but in reality I don't think that should be all that much of a concern.

[WG]

You don't see much improvement, eh?

Go look at the rushing yards allowed from the beginning of the season vice towards the end of the season.

Perhaps then you'll see it.

Think that's all due to Fletcher? or do you think that perhaps Fletcher was aided by it?

I'll opt for the latter.

Oh yeah, but I'm sure it'll all be b/c of the snow. That's why Williams had what, 240 yards in the worst snow game of the year while in others that snow and cold weren't a factor, the rush D shone!

The D improved w/o question. That's why I was so defensive of Gray last year as the season went on. Everyone wanted to give Drew the credit w/ his 10 TDs over 10 games.

Sometimes ya just gotta take the "Bills fan" and "poster boy" glasses off to make an honest assessment. It's much easier to do that when you don't have any favorites.

[WG]

BTW, I disagree on Newman. Apparently so does Capers! His words and assessment were to the notion that the two were equally interchangable.

I'll trust Capers' defensive judgment over Donahoe's any day of the week! Or Gray's, or Williams', or LeBeau's as if he could have even been a factor.

[Ingtar33]

Did you read what came after "I didn't see too much improvement in the defense over the season"?

except

There is no doubt that the Bills D improved significantly over the last half of the year...

[Ingtar33]

did I say anything about Newman's ability to perform in the future with a 3-4... I'm sure he'll be fine in Houston

[Earthquake Enyart]

To me, this argument is about what my problem is with the coaching staff. They stubbornly stick to a system that does not maximise the "talent" that they have on the team. We are waiting for GW & Co. to gather all the pieces rather than switch schemes to play to our strengths.

[Ingtar33]

can't disagree with that... EE

[TypicalBill]

Originally posted by Earthquake Enyart
To me, this argument is about what my problem is with the coaching staff. They stubbornly stick to a system that does not maximise the "talent" that they have on the team. We are waiting for GW & Co. to gather all the pieces rather than switch schemes to play to our strengths.



:hi5: exactly

[SoCalBillsFan]

I was fletcher's biggest critic last year, and I think in the second half he played significantly better.

THis whole henry magahee thing...this year wont be an issue, im concerned about next year. I hope we have a STARTER and a BACKUP. A lot of times even the best RBs will have a game or two where they dont amass a lot of yeard, say 18 carries for 63 yards or something. Then the next game they'll get 125 yards. No RB is gonna go big every week, I just hope we dont pull one if they have a down week.

[colin]

Originally posted by Earthquake Enyart
To me, this argument is about what my problem is with the coaching staff. They stubbornly stick to a system that does not maximise the "talent" that they have on the team. We are waiting for GW & Co. to gather all the pieces rather than switch schemes to play to our strengths.

I understand your point, but I think all GMs/ Head Coaches are system first and personel second.

Every time a new coach comes in, he needs to make some changes to get the team where he wants them, he selects players based on how he thinks they will play in his system, he does not change his system each time he gets a new set of players.

The good teams seem to have an established personality, and they get players based on who will fit into their team.

Gruden put his system in Oakland and Tampa, Billick did it in Baltimore, Billicheck did it in NE, and so on.

Adjustments need to be made to fit in players to maximize performance, but you still have a base system.

[HenryRules]

I agree Colin. Very few coaches succeed when they try to change their style to adapt to their players. In sports like basketball where the players' skill level has a much greater relative impact on the game, the coach should change his style. However, in football, the impact of coaching versus the players' skill level, especially with the salary cap, is almost equal. Hire a coach, let the coach stick with his style, and bring in players that fit that style.
Perhaps they should have hired someone with a style more similar to what the players' strengths were, but that decision was made 2 years ago and there's no reason to get into a huge debate over that, my only comment is that regardless of who we hired two years ago, we were gonna go somewhere between 1-15 and 5-11.

[The_Philster]

Originally posted by Dozerdog
Did travis Henry give a :angry: about Morris and Bryson's feelings getting hurt when he was selected? Did he care about AVP's feelings when the Bills aquired Bledsoe? If he wanted to be the ultimate team player- he would have kept his big mouth shut when somebody slaps a microphone in his face.

If I were an athlete, I would be smart and make myself scarce during the draft- regardless of sport- there will always be a media angle trying to get a sound byte out of you- most of the time it's negative.

Stop being a baby. Want the job? Go get it.

As far as Henry and Morris and Bryson, neither of those two had come off big seasons running the ball so there's a big difference. AVP was a bit disappointed he wouldn't get to retain the starting job but he's one of the ultimate team players and was genuinely excited to see Drew come into town.

You're right on about players making themselves scarce around draft time. There's always a chance that their team is going to show a lack of faith in a player and draft a replacement. Best way for Henry to do things now is to welcome Willis into the fold and proceed to make ever RB in the league look like :angry: compared to him...win the rushing title and make the Bills want to keep him.

[HenryRules]

I'd still like to know who we could have drafted that would not have threatened a decent starter?

I love Travis Henry, but he made the pro bowl as an injury replacement and there could very easily have been other guys chosen in his place (Portis, Dillon, and Taylor all had legitimate cases to be included as the injury replacement). Right now, he's still fighting to prove he's a top 10 back IMO.

[HenryRules]

Originally posted by Ingtar33


ummm... Fletcher wasn't drafted and was 5'10" 225lbs when he walked onto the Rams

Zack Thomas was a 5th rounder and is 5'11" and 235lbs when he went...

Donnie Edwards is about 6'2 230 i think and he was second day pick. Shelton Quarles is smaller I believe and wasn't drafted. That's half of this years pro bowlers that fit your criteria.