Whitner’s shot heard ’round the room

[Dr. Lecter]

George Wilson is not known for brevity. The Buffalo Bills’ backup safety could turn a simple hello into the Gettysburg Address. But when I asked how many players objected to Donte Whitner’s late hit Sunday, Wilson got right to the point.

“None,” Wilson said Wednesday afternoon. “None of them.”

From what I could gather, the players loved it. When Whitner tackled Oakland’s Johnnie Lee Higgins after Higgins showboated his way into the end zone, he had the full support of his teammates. Their only regret was that they didn’t get a shot at Higgins, too.

“Hey, I imagine there were 10 other guys who would have done the same thing if they could have caught him,” defensive tackle Kyle Williams said. “I’m a little heavy and was further down the field, or I would have done it.”

If you think Whitner’s teammates were behind him, you should see what Bills fans are telling him on Facebook and MySpace. To them, Whitner was chasing an intruder out of the house, striking a blow for the franchise. He could run for mayor right now.

Dick Jauron took the predictable stand, saying Whitner has to control his emotions. But deep down, the coach had to be giving his young safety an attaboy.

“I was talking to Thurman Thomas,” Whitner said. “He told me that when he played here, someone on the defensive side — like Darryl Talley — would have done the same thing.”

Maybe it was a coincidence that Whitner did it on the day Bruce Smith was honored, with the old Bills in town. But it was a statement of competitive resolve. It said, “This team is different. You do not show us up in our house.”

This is the same young player, remember, who guaranteed the playoffs this season. Whitner wanted everyone, including his teammates, to understand the Bills were playing to a different standard. That means playing with the healthy bravado all great teams possess.

“Yeah, I was pretty much saying the same thing Sunday,” Whitner said. “You can go back to last year, when I said we weren’t punching bags for teams coming in here. Teams need to know they can’t come in here and show you up.”

On a team of bright, competitive guys, Whitner has become an unquestioned leader. As a 21-year-old rookie, he bided his time. But once the Bills cleaned out the old guard, Whitner was ready to take over as a leader and spokesman.

Whitner relishes the leadership role. That’s one of the reasons the Bills drafted him eighth overall in 2006. He had the physical talent. But he also had a bright, inquisitive nature and a fierce competitive temperament — an ideal combination for a young team leader.

Link. (http://www.buffalonews.com/opinion/columns/jerrysullivan/story/447660.html)

[Dujek]

I said it at the time, I'll say it now - the only thing Whitner did wrong was that he didn't hit him hard enough.

[HHURRICANE]

That hit had a lot to do with us winning that game.

No doubt about it.

[madness]

...but I thought he wasn't showboating. :snicker:

LOL @ Kyle Williams

[JerseyBoofaloBills]

haha i enjoyed seeing whitner do that..

I knew after that play the bills were coming back..

and, ya seriously..LOL at kyle williams..woulda been funny too see him actually try to chase him down.

[OpIv37]

That hit had a lot to do with us winning that game.

No doubt about it.

:rolleyes:

There's plenty of doubt. That's conjecture, not fact. No one knows what would have happened had Whitner done the right thing and NOT taken a cheap shot.

[madness]

Not saying it was right but a tackle in the endzone is a cheap shot? I can think of a lot of cheap shots on the football field and that's not one of them. Even if it is, it's the very last one on the list.

[Dr. Lecter]

Well, we do know they won after he did it.

It is conjecture that they would have won without it. So, since it was a win with it, why change it?

(Note: I still don't like it, but the statement is true)

[MikeInRoch]

I agree. Dumb, dumb play.

[OpIv37]

Not saying it was right but a tackle in the endzone is a cheap shot? I can think of a lot of cheap shots on the football field and that's not one of them.

how is hitting a guy 5 yards deep in the end zone from behind NOT a cheap shot? He got flagged for it for a reason.

[OpIv37]

Well, we do know they won after he did it.

It is conjecture that they would have won without it. So, since it was a win with it, why change it?

(Note: I still don't like it, but the statement is true)

Fine, but people around here keep saying that "the tackle helped the team win" like it's fact. But they don't know that it's fact, so they shouldn't state it as fact or say "there's no doubt".

[Jan Reimers]

A lot of opinions get stated as facts around here.

[madness]

how is hitting a guy 5 yards deep in the end zone from behind NOT a cheap shot? He got flagged for it for a reason.

Cheap shots are usually always the first action not the reaction. The cheap shot didn't get flagged, the retaliation did.

[mayotm]

A lot of opinions get stated as facts around here.
Yes, especially by some of those posting in this thread now.

[justasportsfan]

this team has solid unity. Love it. I hope they don't do it again.

[OpIv37]

Cheap shots are usually always the first action not the reaction. The cheap shop didn't get flagged, the retaliation did.

cheap shots aren't words. Cheap shots are physical actions that can physically harm another player. Higgins was being an ass, but the only thing he hurt was Donte's ego. Whitner could have actually hurt Higgins with a play like that.

[SABURZFAN]

Whitner could have actually hurt Higgins with a play like that.


it's too bad that he didn't.

[madness]

cheap shots aren't words. Cheap shots are physical actions that can physically harm another player. Higgins was being an ass, but the only thing he hurt was Donte's ego. Whitner could have actually hurt Higgins with a play like that.

It wasn't about Whitner's ego, it was about respect. Did you read the article? Not one player on the team had a problem with it.

[justasportsfan]

Now I know Whitner is a LEADER ( choke on that OP :snicker: ) . He does something stupid and the team backs him up. Nice.

[Coach Sal]

Everyone's taking the right public stand in this.

--The players love their teammate for sticking up for them and being a leader.
--The head coach wants everyone to know he doesn't condone it and reminds players to keep their composure.
--The fans don't care as long as the team wins.

[Bulldog]

:rolleyes:

There's plenty of doubt. That's conjecture, not fact. No one knows what would have happened had Whitner done the right thing and NOT taken a cheap shot.

You and DB keep saying that the hit had no impact on the outcome of that game. I find it funny that all the players that have been interviewed have said the opposite. Must be you and DB know more than the players.

[RockStar36]

:rolleyes:

There's plenty of doubt. That's conjecture, not fact. No one knows what would have happened had Whitner done the right thing and NOT taken a cheap shot.

I'll bet any amount of money that if anyone else on the Bills defense took a shot like that you would be clapping your hands because of it. But for some reason you have this axe to grind with Whitner and no matter what he does it's wrong. What is the guy going to have to do to win you over?

[mayotm]

I'll bet any amount of money that if anyone else on the Bills defense took a shot like that you would be clapping your hands because of it. But for some reason you have this axe to grind with Whitner and no matter what he does it's wrong. What is the guy going to have to do to win you over?You're probably right. In general, Donte has the respect of his team, coaches, opponents, local media, national media and most fans. I'm sure he isn't losing any sleep over "winning over" Op.

[mercyrule]

I love showboating.

Sucks when the other team gets to do it.

Good thing I love retaliation too.

[OpIv37]

You and DB keep saying that the hit had no impact on the outcome of that game. I find it funny that all the players that have been interviewed have said the opposite. Must be you and DB know more than the players.

I didn't say it had no impact.

I said we don't KNOW if it had an impact or not because there is no way of knowing what would have happened if Whitner didn't make the hit.

Just because a player says something to the media doesn't make it true.

[OpIv37]

I'll bet any amount of money that if anyone else on the Bills defense took a shot like that you would be clapping your hands because of it. But for some reason you have this axe to grind with Whitner and no matter what he does it's wrong. What is the guy going to have to do to win you over?

Wrong.

I'd be pissed no matter who did it. I'd bet any amount of money that everyone on here defending Whitner would be pissed as hell if someone on the Raiders did the same thing to Lynch or Parrish after their TD's.

My problem with Whitner is that he consistently underperforms. The bigger problem is that no matter how much he underperforms, half this board has to compliment him. No one ever sees how mediocre he is and no one ever holds him accountable. It's never Whitner's fault- it's always the system or the front 7 or the fact that the other QB isn't throwing at him.

The guy committed a late hit and drew a 15 yard penalty, yet everyone is spinning it into a GOOD thing. WTF?

We all have high expectations of Whitner. So far, he hasn't lived up to them. I'm trying to point that out, whereas everyone else is making excuses and trying to pretend that he his living up to them. It's nauseating. I don't know why he's above criticism on this board.

[gr8slayer]

I applaud Whitner for doing it, he's giving the defense the attitude you need to be successful. That "not in our house" mentality and we're seeing it pay off. Has he lived up to his billing as a #8 pick? Not really, but what he lacks in skill set he more than makes up for with leadership, and that's something that is very hard to find.

[OpIv37]

You're probably right. In general, Donte has the respect of his team, coaches, opponents, local media, national media and most fans. I'm sure he isn't losing any sleep over "winning over" Op.

but WHY?

His play has been mediocre.

That's exactly my problem with him- he gets all these accolades but he hasn't done anything on the field to deserve them.

It doesn't make any sense.

[gr8slayer]

You and DB keep saying that the hit had no impact on the outcome of that game. I find it funny that all the players that have been interviewed have said the opposite. Must be you and DB know more than the players.
I guarantee you it had an effect on the rest of the team.

[THATHURMANATOR]

I was fired up when he hit that little ***** Higgins. I LOVED IT

[THATHURMANATOR]

Wrong.

I'd be pissed no matter who did it. I'd bet any amount of money that everyone on here defending Whitner would be pissed as hell if someone on the Raiders did the same thing to Lynch or Parrish after their TD's.

My problem with Whitner is that he consistently underperforms. The bigger problem is that no matter how much he underperforms, half this board has to compliment him. No one ever sees how mediocre he is and no one ever holds him accountable. It's never Whitner's fault- it's always the system or the front 7 or the fact that the other QB isn't throwing at him.

The guy committed a late hit and drew a 15 yard penalty, yet everyone is spinning it into a GOOD thing. WTF?

We all have high expectations of Whitner. So far, he hasn't lived up to them. I'm trying to point that out, whereas everyone else is making excuses and trying to pretend that he his living up to them. It's nauseating. I don't know why he's above criticism on this board.
How is he underperforming so far this year?

[hydro]

How is he underperforming so far this year?

Don't get him started Thurm :ill:

[gr8slayer]

Don't get him started Thurm :ill:
Well, he is right on some of the stuff with Whitner. It's natural to expect huge things out of a top ten pick.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Well, he is right on some of the stuff with Whitner. It's natural to expect huge things out of a top ten pick.
He is playing well and the Bills are winning what else do you want?

[hydro]

Well, he is right on some of the stuff with Whitner. It's natural to expect huge things out of a top ten pick.

Oh I know. But he has made his points known on plenty of occasions.

[OpIv37]

How is he underperforming so far this year?

3 games.
17 tackles, most of which were 5 yards downfield
1 pass defensed.
0 sacks
0 INT's
0 Forced Fumbles
0 big hits.


The guy has more personal fouls (1) than he does big plays (0). Maybe "underperformed" is the wrong word because he hasn't been bad. But he was the #8 overall draft pick. He's supposed to be better than "not bad".

Leadership and swagger- that's stuff's nice to have but it's secondary. His primary duty is to contribute on the field and those contributions are average at best.

[THATHURMANATOR]

3 games.
17 tackles, most of which were 5 yards downfield
1 pass defensed.
0 sacks
0 INT's
0 Forced Fumbles
0 big hits.


The guy has more personal fouls (1) than he does big plays (0). Maybe "underperformed" is the wrong word because he hasn't been bad. But he was the #8 overall draft pick. He's supposed to be better than "not bad".

Leadership and swagger- that's stuff's nice to have but it's secondary. His primary duty is to contribute on the field and those contributions are average at best.
ENOUGH Already. No one CARES

[Philagape]

ENOUGH Already. No one CARES

Obviously you do, since you asked :rofl:

But on the topic, I have been swayed to the pro-hit side. :up:

[OpIv37]

He is playing well and the Bills are winning what else do you want?

It's great that the Bills are winning, but that doesn't get players off the hook for poor performances. Evans fumbled and had a penalty. Peters gave up two sacks and looked like crap. Schobel did well in the run game but hasn't been doing much at all in terms of a pass rush. Whitner has been his usual average self.

Think how good we'd be if these guys got their asses in gear. And they're going to have to if we're going to beat better teams like NE and SD.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Obviously you, since you asked :rofl:

But on the topic, I have been swayed to the pro-hit side. :up:
No that isn't obvious at all.

:hi5:

[gr8slayer]

3 games.
17 tackles, most of which were 5 yards downfield
1 pass defensed.
0 sacks
0 INT's
0 Forced Fumbles
0 big hits.


The guy has more personal fouls (1) than he does big plays (0). Maybe "underperformed" is the wrong word because he hasn't been bad. But he was the #8 overall draft pick. He's supposed to be better than "not bad".

Leadership and swagger- that's stuff's nice to have but it's secondary. His primary duty is to contribute on the field and those contributions are average at best.
I know we've gone over this before but I'll do it again. Our defense is not set up for the SS to be much more than a fail-safe switch. Let him play at the line or play more man coverage and you'll see far better numbers. It's hard to get in on a play when you're having to drop back 10-20 yards every play and play zone defense. To be honest with you, he's doing what he's asked to do and he's doing it well.

[THATHURMANATOR]

It's great that the Bills are winning, but that doesn't get players off the hook for poor performances. Evans fumbled and had a penalty. Peters gave up two sacks and looked like crap. Schobel did well in the run game but hasn't been doing much at all in terms of a pass rush. Whitner has been his usual average self.

Think how good we'd be if these guys got their asses in gear. And they're going to have to if we're going to beat better teams like NE and SD.
STOP IT

[OpIv37]

ENOUGH Already. No one CARES

You asked the question, so obviously SOMEONE cares.

And everyone who claims to be a Bills fan should care. High draft picks who don't pan out is a recipe for disaster (see the Tom Donahoe years).

[M]

It was a late tackle not vicious hit, right? I personally loved it. It wasn't like he was trying to knock him out the way he did Ocho Cinco, yet people seemed OK with that one.

[THATHURMANATOR]

You asked the question, so obviously SOMEONE cares.

And everyone who claims to be a Bills fan should care. High draft picks who don't pan out is a recipe for disaster (see the Tom Donahoe years).
ENOUGH

[Philagape]

He is playing well and the Bills are winning what else do you want?

There's always room to improve. What the Bills' good start -- as well as other teams' developments -- has done is raise the bar for expectations. They have a good shot at the playoffs, so it's reasonable to think about how we'll do then.

[OpIv37]

I know we've gone over this before but I'll do it again. Our defense is not set up for the SS to be much more than a fail-safe switch. Let him play at the line or play more man coverage and you'll see far better numbers. It's hard to get in on a play when you're having to drop back 10-20 yards every play and play zone defense. To be honest with you, he's doing what he's asked to do and he's doing it well.

So, why did we draft a guy at #8 to stand back and play center field? That doesn't make any sense.

[RockStar36]

but WHY?

His play has been mediocre.

That's exactly my problem with him- he gets all these accolades but he hasn't done anything on the field to deserve them.

It doesn't make any sense.

What does he do that makes his play mediocre. I've seen the players as SS before him and they were terrible. I've yet to watch Whitner and think that of him.

[gr8slayer]

So, why did we draft a guy at #8 to stand back and play center field? That doesn't make any sense.
It does though, Whitner has the cover skills of a CB. Notice how we don't see many deep balls thrown on us? You want to see what happens when you have a bad SS in zone? Watch a Cowboys game sometime with Roy Williams back there, teams are licking their chops every time they have to play Dallas because of it.

[gr8slayer]

What does he do that makes his play mediocre. I've seen the players as SS before him and they were terrible. I've yet to watch Whitner and think that of him.
There are a few occasions that come to mind, mainly Randy Moss last year but everyone had that happen to them against the Pats in 2007.

[RockStar36]

BTW Op, I have a nice quote from you before the season started that I'm saving for late in the season when you have a Thanksgiving amount of crow to eat.

[justasportsfan]

3 games.17 tackles, most of which were 5 yards downfield
1 pass defensed.
0 sacks
0 INT's
0 Forced Fumbles
0 big hits.

. you forgot the MOST important stat because it makes your whine petty. 3 games 3 wins. thanks to the leadership of this team. :up:

[OpIv37]

What does he do that makes his play mediocre. I've seen the players as SS before him and they were terrible. I've yet to watch Whitner and think that of him.

all his tackles are downfield. He never makes a big play or even a big hit.

He's certainly not a liability and he hasn't given up any big plays this year (last year was a different story, and the Higgins play was as much on Poz and Simpson as Whitner, maybe moreso). But he doesn't make any big plays either. The best he ever does is occasionally make a tackle at the LOS in run defense.

[gr8slayer]

3 wins. thanks to the leadership of this team. :up:
Yeah, last year we would have lost the Raiders game because everyone would be walking around with their heads down in the "poor me" mode.

[RockStar36]

all his tackles are downfield. He never makes a big play or even a big hit.

He's certainly not a liability and he hasn't given up any big plays this year (last year was a different story, and the Higgins play was as much on Poz and Simpson as Whitner, maybe moreso). But he doesn't make any big plays either. The best he ever does is occasionally make a tackle at the LOS in run defense.

Never a big hit?

I think Chad Ocho Cinco would disagree with you.

[OpIv37]

BTW Op, I have a nice quote from you before the season started that I'm saving for late in the season when you have a Thanksgiving amount of crow to eat.

yeah there's going to be a lot of that going around this year. But it's a small price to pay to see the Bills winning.

[The last buffalo fan]

3 games.
17 tackles, most of which were 5 yards downfield
1 pass defensed.
0 sacks
0 INT's
0 Forced Fumbles
0 big hits.


The guy has more personal fouls (1) than he does big plays (0). Maybe "underperformed" is the wrong word because he hasn't been bad. But he was the #8 overall draft pick. He's supposed to be better than "not bad".

Leadership and swagger- that's stuff's nice to have but it's secondary. His primary duty is to contribute on the field and those contributions are average at best.

For me, this is only result of not playing against great teams yet, and not because of this guy skills. If the rest of the defense is playing well, there is no need yet for him to show up on the statistics, and that's a good sign or it's ok with me.

[OpIv37]

Never a big hit?

I think Chad Ocho Cinco would disagree with you.

Sorry.

He makes one big hit every 33 games.

Better?

[gr8slayer]

all his tackles are downfield. He never makes a big play or even a big hit.

He's certainly not a liability and he hasn't given up any big plays this year (last year was a different story, and the Higgins play was as much on Poz and Simpson as Whitner, maybe moreso). But he doesn't make any big plays either. The best he ever does is occasionally make a tackle at the LOS in run defense.
EXACTLY! The guy doesn't play at the line where plays can be made, he's 10-20 yards down field protecting us over the top.

[RockStar36]

Sorry.

He makes one big hit every 33 games.

Better?

Yeah. If you're gonna argue a point have all the facts straight.

[justasportsfan]

But it's a small price to pay to see the Bills winning.
that won't get you off the hook.

[madness]

It does though, Whitner has the cover skills of a CB. Notice how we don't see many deep balls thrown on us? You want to see what happens when you have a bad SS in zone? Watch a Cowboys game sometime with Roy Williams back there, teams are licking their chops every time they have to play Dallas because of it.

Stop confusing us with facts. Situational stats is how you prove your point!

Besides, Roy Williams is a great hitter so that makes up for his play..or lack of.

[THATHURMANATOR]

By the way Op you mentioned that most of Whitner's tackles are down field. NO **** he is a safety. He isn't going to be up on the line unless he is blitzing which I haven't seen fewell do with the Safetys.

[justasportsfan]

all his tackles are downfield. He never makes a big play or even a big hit.

He's certainly not a liability and he hasn't given up any big plays this year (last year was a different story, and the Higgins play was as much on Poz and Simpson as Whitner, maybe moreso). But he doesn't make any big plays either. The best he ever does is occasionally make a tackle at the LOS in run defense.


the biggest play he makes every game that seems to go over your head is that he makes everyone else around him play like a cohessive unit . TOP 5 OP. Top 5 total D.

Read em and weep!

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=2&defensiveStatisticCategory=GAME_STATS&conference=ALL&role=OPP&season=2008&seasonType=REG&d-447263-s=TOTAL_YARDS_GAME_AVG&d-447263-o=1&d-447263-n=1

[THATHURMANATOR]

Plus Whitner plays well WOOOT.

[mysticsoto]

I didn't say it had no impact.

I said we don't KNOW if it had an impact or not because there is no way of knowing what would have happened if Whitner didn't make the hit.

Just because a player says something to the media doesn't make it true.

Well, Op, Trent was quoted after the game as saying that he was fired up after that incident in the 4th quarter. On the whole, that's enough for me to feel like there was an impact...

[OpIv37]

Stop confusing us with facts. Situational stats is how you prove your point!

Besides, Roy Williams is a great hitter so that makes up for his play..or lack of.

Situational?

You mean every stat for every game of Whitner's career (or in this case, this entire season so far) are situational?

They're only situational if you define the situation as Whitner being on the field.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Situational?

You mean every stat for every game of Whitner's career (or in this case, this entire season so far) are situational?

They're only situational if you define the situation as Whitner being on the field.
Whitner is a good player. You were wrong about him just admit it and join us!!!

[mysticsoto]

3 games.
17 tackles, most of which were 5 yards downfield
1 pass defensed.
0 sacks
0 INT's
0 Forced Fumbles
0 big hits.


The guy has more personal fouls (1) than he does big plays (0). Maybe "underperformed" is the wrong word because he hasn't been bad. But he was the #8 overall draft pick. He's supposed to be better than "not bad".

Leadership and swagger- that's stuff's nice to have but it's secondary. His primary duty is to contribute on the field and those contributions are average at best.

The difference between you and me is that I look at intangibles also. For example, like I told you last week, Youboty got a real nice sack b'cse Donte was doing all kinds of things to fake a blitz and distract Garrard. That doesn't go on a stat sheet, but in my view...that counts just as much if he helps another player get a play in. Those are things that will never show up on a stat sheet - nor will QB hurries that end up incomplete...but I notice, observe and record those in my head and give a player credit when he does them.

[OpIv37]

Well, Op, Trent was quoted after the game as saying that he was fired up after that incident in the 4th quarter. On the whole, that's enough for me to feel like there was an impact...

Well the converse of that means that Trent wouldn't have been fired enough to win without witnessing a penalty. That sells Trent a little short, don't you think?

Also, you have to understand the situation these players are in with regards to the media. He's got a bunch of microphones in his face and they're asking him about a dumb play by a teammate. If he badmouths the guy, then he has to go face that guy in the locker room and that whole "cohesiveness" I'm hearing so much about disappears. So, he either says the hit motivated him and gets Donte off the hook, or he creates some locker room strife.

Now, Trent could be telling the truth- maybe he really was motivated by that hit. But since none of us are clairvoyant and it's in Trent and the team's best interest to defend Whitner, we can't just assume that he meant what he said.

[OpIv37]

Whitner is a good player. You were wrong about him just admit it and join us!!!

Whitner is a mediocre player and I'm just trying to help the rest of you see it.

[justasportsfan]

Well the converse of that means that Trent wouldn't have been fired enough to win without witnessing a penalty. That sells Trent a little short, don't you think?

.
since he came back to win the game. NO. Looks like Whitner not only makes the D better but also the O.

[RedEyE]

:yawn:

[THATHURMANATOR]

Whitner is a mediocre player and I'm just trying to help the rest of you see it.
Well your Mediocre posts are not doing the job

[OpIv37]

The difference between you and me is that I look at intangibles also. For example, like I told you last week, Youboty got a real nice sack b'cse Donte was doing all kinds of things to fake a blitz and distract Garrard. That doesn't go on a stat sheet, but in my view...that counts just as much if he helps another player get a play in. Those are things that will never show up on a stat sheet - nor will QB hurries that end up incomplete...but I notice, observe and record those in my head and give a player credit when he does them.

But see, this is just another excuse for Whitner.

Players fake blitzes ALL the time. And the reason that worked is because Fewell has shown a willingness to use the blitz. So, that's a plus for Donte but it hardly makes up for the lack of big plays and it's not due to his actions alone.

[justasportsfan]

Whitner is a mediocre player and I'm just trying to help the rest of you see it.


Just like you made us see that our DE's suck? Oh wait, you changed your mind about them.

[OpIv37]

Well your Mediocre posts are not doing the job

well I didn't get selected #8 overall and paid millions of dollars to make posts.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Well the converse of that means that Trent wouldn't have been fired enough to win without witnessing a penalty. That sells Trent a little short, don't you think?

Also, you have to understand the situation these players are in with regards to the media. He's got a bunch of microphones in his face and they're asking him about a dumb play by a teammate. If he badmouths the guy, then he has to go face that guy in the locker room and that whole "cohesiveness" I'm hearing so much about disappears. So, he either says the hit motivated him and gets Donte off the hook, or he creates some locker room strife.

Now, Trent could be telling the truth- maybe he really was motivated by that hit. But since none of us are clairvoyant and it's in Trent and the team's best interest to defend Whitner, we can't just assume that he meant what he said.
How could a man and a team mate and a Football player not be fired up about Whitners hit. You would have to have no heart.

[OpIv37]

Just like you made us see that our DE's suck? Oh wait, you changed your mind about them.

Well, I changed my mind on Kelsay. I still say Schobel sucks, although he played the run well against Oakland.

[THATHURMANATOR]

well I didn't get selected #8 overall and paid millions of dollars to make posts.
You were a first rounder though. You should be performing better.

[OpIv37]

How could a man and a team mate and a Football player not be fired up about Whitners hit. You would have to have no heart.

It's called pragmatism. The hit came when the O was about to come back on the field and cost Trent and the rest of the O 15 yards of field position when they still needed two scores to win.

While it's fun to get all juiced about Whitner sticking it to some showboating *******, the practical consequence had negative effects for the O.

[justasportsfan]

Well, I changed my mind on Kelsay. I still say Schobel sucks, although he played the run well against Oakland.
Top 5 OP. Top 5. We wouldn't be there if both Aaron and Whitner were as bad as you make them out to be.

[mysticsoto]

Well the converse of that means that Trent wouldn't have been fired enough to win without witnessing a penalty. That sells Trent a little short, don't you think?

Also, you have to understand the situation these players are in with regards to the media. He's got a bunch of microphones in his face and they're asking him about a dumb play by a teammate. If he badmouths the guy, then he has to go face that guy in the locker room and that whole "cohesiveness" I'm hearing so much about disappears. So, he either says the hit motivated him and gets Donte off the hook, or he creates some locker room strife.

Now, Trent could be telling the truth- maybe he really was motivated by that hit. But since none of us are clairvoyant and it's in Trent and the team's best interest to defend Whitner, we can't just assume that he meant what he said.

The whole team wasn't fired up for the 1st 3 qtrs...did you miss the game? It's not selling a team short. It's exactly what I told you. Football is not all stats. There's alot of emotion that can drive players also and having the emotional leader of the team make a play and get everyone fired up (even if it cost a penalty) is sometimes warranted if the end result is that we win!

As to whether Trent is lying or not...you make that call. Does Trent seem like that type? Or does it more likely seem that this team has alot of unity and believe in each other?

[THATHURMANATOR]

It's called pragmatism. The hit came when the O was about to come back on the field and cost Trent and the rest of the O 15 yards of field position when they still needed two scores to win.

While it's fun to get all juiced about Whitner sticking it to some showboating *******, the practical consequence had negative effects for the O.
It looked like the Offense was fired up and it showed on the field. They were holding blocks, Getting open.

[THATHURMANATOR]

The whole team wasn't fired up for the 1st 3 qtrs...did you miss the game? It's not selling a team short. It's exactly what I told you. Football is not all stats. There's alot of emotion that can drive players also and having the emotional leader of the team make a play and get everyone fired up (even if it cost a penalty) is sometimes warranted if the end result is that we win!

As to whether Trent is lying or not...you make that call. Does Trent seem like that type? Or does it more likely seem that this team has alot of unity and believe in each other?
Yep but Op apparently can read guys minds. We are wrong.. :(

[justasportsfan]

By OP's logic, Wilson should be the starter based on stats.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Yes but OP's logic is wrong Justa... :(

[Mitchy moo]

Donte talks with his mouth & his body, this is our house.

[mysticsoto]

But see, this is just another excuse for Whitner.

Players fake blitzes ALL the time. And the reason that worked is because Fewell has shown a willingness to use the blitz. So, that's a plus for Donte but it hardly makes up for the lack of big plays and it's not due to his actions alone.
Yes, but the difference is, you are dismissing what Whitner is doing...Players make tackles all the time...does that mean, if Donte tackles, it should be dismissed? Players make interceptions too...so if Donte did them, you'd dismiss it? Fact of the matter is that had Donte not distracted Garrard, Youboty may not have gotten that sack. Overlook that all you want. In my book, you don't overlook that. You don't overlook that b'cse Garrard is looking to see what Donte is doing next, he is distracted and perhaps a second late in trying to make a completion...or he has to throw too early on another occasion b'cse this time Donte blitzed and his WR still wasn't ready. Try paying attention to those intangibles that help win a game. They are not things you should dismiss. A successful sack by Youboty means yardage loss vs a possible completion for a big gain if he's able to hit Youboty's man for a quick pass. A successful blitz from Donte should include incompletions - that's one less chance a QB/team will have to get yardage.

Every rookie is often quoted that the biggest difference from college to pro is speed. And any second or two that Donte can distract a QB by his presence alone, moving around and confusing the QB as to what he's going to do, means a DE, DT or blitzing CB/S has a chance at getting to the QB that much faster and making the play.

[mysticsoto]

By OP's logic, Wilson should be the starter based on stats.

What? Op thinks Ralph is better than Donte? :D Wouldn't surprise me...

[OpIv37]

The whole team wasn't fired up for the 1st 3 qtrs...did you miss the game? It's not selling a team short. It's exactly what I told you. Football is not all stats. There's alot of emotion that can drive players also and having the emotional leader of the team make a play and get everyone fired up (even if it cost a penalty) is sometimes warranted if the end result is that we win!

As to whether Trent is lying or not...you make that call. Does Trent seem like that type? Or does it more likely seem that this team has alot of unity and believe in each other?

I don't consider lying to the media to be lying. It's just the PR game.

If the team had as much unity and belief in themselves as you claim, they would have been fired up enough to win without Whitner's hit.

[OpIv37]

Yes, but the difference is, you are dismissing what Whitner is doing...Players make tackles all the time...does that mean, if Donte tackles, it should be dismissed? Players make interceptions too...so if Donte did them, you'd dismiss it? Fact of the matter is that had Donte not distracted Garrard, Youboty may not have gotten that sack. Overlook that all you want. In my book, you don't overlook that. You don't overlook that b'cse Garrard is looking to see what Donte is doing next, he is distracted and perhaps a second late in trying to make a completion...or he has to throw too early on another occasion b'cse this time Donte blitzed and his WR still wasn't ready. Try paying attention to those intangibles that help win a game. They are not things you should dismiss. A successful sack by Youboty means yardage loss vs a possible completion for a big gain if he's able to hit Youboty's man for a quick pass. A successful blitz from Donte should include incompletions - that's one less chance a QB/team will have to get yardage.

Every rookie is often quoted that the biggest difference from college to pro is speed. And any second or two that Donte can distract a QB by his presence alone, moving around and confusing the QB as to what he's going to do, means a DE, DT or blitzing CB/S has a chance at getting to the QB that much faster and making the play.

If Donte got interceptions, he'd be doing his job. Right now, he's not.

Do you see what you just did? You lowered the standards to defend Whitner. Rather than making big plays, distracting the QB is now enough to be considered good. That's what drives me nuts on this board. If Whitner doesn't live up to expectations in one area, the criteria gets changed so he can still be considered good.

I just don't understand the unwillingness to call it like it is with this guy.

[THATHURMANATOR]

I don't consider lying to the media to be lying. It's just the PR game.

If the team had as much unity and belief in themselves as you claim, they would have been fired up enough to win without Whitner's hit.
<img src=http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m301/hisdroogness/Bad_Post.jpg>

[OpIv37]

<img src=http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m301/hisdroogness/Bad_Post.jpg>

says the guy who considers typing "STOP IT" in big bold letters to be a legitimate response.

[hydro]

I don't consider lying to the media to be lying. It's just the PR game.

If the team had as much unity and belief in themselves as you claim, they would have been fired up enough to win without Whitner's hit.
So you think whenever a big play is made or an action that sends a definitive message happens on the field, there is no effect on the team? Gimme a break...

[yordad]

Well, his teammates didn't mind, and we won, who am I to argue.

[THATHURMANATOR]

says the guy who considers typing "STOP IT" in big bold letters to be a legitimate response.
I am a get to the point kind of guy. I don't waste time with nonsense!

[Mitchy moo]

So you think whenever a big play is made or an action that sends a definitive message happens on the field, there is no effect on the team? Gimme a break...

We just need things to complain about here. We could win the SB and we'd have a round about who held the trophy first.

I'll sum this up quick, Donte didn't like a TD being scored and Higgins was flashing his dance moves on his way to our endzone. Donte took it upon himself to let Higgins know that no matter where he goes, Donte is going to show him his moves.

Message sent, loud and clear.

[OpIv37]

So you think whenever a big play is made or an action that sends a definitive message happens on the field, there is no effect on the team? Gimme a break...

No, I would like to think that this team has enough heart and motivation to play hard and win without needing a cheap shot to be inspired.

[OpIv37]

We just need things to complain about here. We could win the SB and we'd have a round about who held the trophy first.

I'll sum this up quick, Donte didn't like a TD being scored and Higgins was flashing his dance moves on his way to our endzone. Donte took it upon himself to let Higgins know that no matter where he goes, Donte is going to show him his moves.

Message sent, loud and clear.

You know what would send an even louder and clearer message? Not allowing an 84 yard TD in the first ****ing place.

[Dujek]

Oh, so now the TD is Whitner's fault? There was me thinking that Poz missed the ball when trying to knock it down and Simpson blew his coverage, but you're telling me we should blame it on the one guy who made some sort of effort to recover the situation.

Usually even when I don't agree with you I can see where you're coming from, but this blind hatred of Whitner is just ridiculous.

[OpIv37]

Oh, so now the TD is Whitner's fault? There was me thinking that Poz missed the ball when trying to knock it down and Simpson blew his coverage, but you're telling me we should blame it on the one guy who made some sort of effort to recover the situation.

Usually even when I don't agree with you I can see where you're coming from, but this blind hatred of Whitner is just ridiculous.

It was mostly Poz and Simpson's fault but Whitner was a mere step away and couldn't make the tackle. Then he wasn't even close to catching him.

It's not a hatred of Whitner and it's not blind. It's a hatred of the mediocrity that Whitner exhibits and a hatred of the blind defense of Whitner on this board, no matter what he does.

[Dr. Lecter]

It was mostly Poz and Simpson's fault but Whitner was a mere step away and couldn't make the tackle. Then he wasn't even close to catching him.

It's not a hatred of Whitner and it's not blind. It's a hatred of the mediocrity that Whitner exhibits and a hatred of the blind defense of Whitner on this board, no matter what he does.

He was a step away and heading the other direction.

Had he made the play, it would have been spectacular. The play was 99% on Poz and Simpson.

And it certainly looks like a blind hatred. Anything positive (or not 100% negative) said about Whitner starts a tirade.

The guy has never done anything correct.

[RockStar36]

By your definition half the team is mediocre, yet they are 3-0. Can you just be happy for once in your life? This is borderline ridiculous. I used to think it was because the Bills were losing but now that isn't the case.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Op is a Whitner HATER!

[OpIv37]

He was a step away and heading the other direction.

Had he made the play, it would have been spectacular. The play was 99% on Poz and Simpson.

And it certainly looks like a blind hatred. Anything positive (or not 100% negative) said about Whitner starts a tirade.

The guy has never done anything correct.

#8 overall draft picks should make spectacular plays from time to time.

Everyone keeps saying that Whitner doesn't have the opportunity to make big plays because of the system and what he's asked to do. Well, he had a shot and failed.

But it's ok because he tackled a guy AFTER he scored 6 points :rolleyes:.

I'm trying to balance out the Whitner love-fest. It's complete overkill on the positive side, so it takes a lot to balance it out.

And I don't know where you get this "blind hatred". I have reasons for every negative thing I've ever said about Whitner. It's not like I'm just dumping on the guy for nothing.

[THATHURMANATOR]

#8 picks should be able to run 2.2 40s apparently.... :rolleyes:

[OpIv37]

By your definition half the team is mediocre, yet they are 3-0. Can you just be happy for once in your life? This is borderline ridiculous. I used to think it was because the Bills were losing but now that isn't the case.

I'm happy that the Bills are winning.

That doesn't mean that I have to be happy with the performance of every single player. That's just ridiculous.

[RockStar36]

Just on a side note I'd like to state that according to a few sources, the ref wasn't going to call taunting and didn't until Whitner tackled the guy in the endzone. It was like he was going to let it go but since Whitner made the late hit he called them both to wash them out. In that case, he didn't really cost the offense much of anything.

[THATHURMANATOR]

EXACTLY!

[Dr. Lecter]

#8 overall draft picks should make spectacular plays from time to time.


The argument over whether or not he is performing like a #8 pick is not the same as his performance this year.

And I would argue that making spectacular plays is less important than making the correct plays and shutting down other teams.

Like somebody asked earlier, when was the last time a team threw deep down the middle on the Bills? Or deep at all?

Spectacular is great, but consistency is better in the long run for starters.

[Dr. Lecter]

I love showboating.

Sucks when the other team gets to do it.

Good thing I love retaliation too.

The good news:

The Bills got to do BOTH last Sunday, although the showboating had to wait until the final gun

[OpIv37]

Just on a side note I'd like to state that according to a few sources, the ref wasn't going to call taunting and didn't until Whitner tackled the guy in the endzone. It was like he was going to let it go but since Whitner made the late hit he called them both to wash them out. In that case, he didn't really cost the offense much of anything.

what? So the ref judged whether it was taunting based on Whitner's reaction?

That's a terrible job of officiating.

Either it's taunting or not- the other player's reaction should have nothing to do with it.

[OpIv37]

The argument over whether or not he is performing like a #8 pick is not the same as his performance this year.

And I would argue that making spectacular plays is less important than making the correct plays and shutting down other teams.

Like somebody asked earlier, when was the last time a team threw deep down the middle on the Bills? Or deep at all?

Spectacular is great, but consistency is better in the long run for starters.

Making spectacular plays and making correct plays are not mutually exclusive. You play consistent the majority of the time, and when the opportunity for a spectacular play comes up, you make it.

Whitner does ok with the first part. He sucks at the second part.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Op is relentless I will give him that! I guess blind hatred will do that to a guy.

[RockStar36]

what? So the ref judged whether it was taunting based on Whitner's reaction?

That's a terrible job of officiating.

Either it's taunting or not- the other player's reaction should have nothing to do with it.

Not true.

You see it all the time in hockey. They either let things go or they will call one player for tripping and the other for diving.

It's the same concept. They flagged Whitner for his hit, thought about it, realized why he did it, and decided to call taunting. Had Whitner not hit him late, they would've never called either.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Right Dev.

Higgins was clearly taunting Whitner.

[OpIv37]

Not true.

You see it all the time in hockey. They either let things go or they will call one player for tripping and the other for diving.

It's the same concept. They flagged Whitner for his hit, thought about it, realized why he did it, and decided to call taunting. Had Whitner not hit him late, they would've never called either.

I don't think that's a good example at all. In hockey, the guy who did the tripping did the tripping. The other guy dove to embellish it, but they were gonna call it anyway.

And anyway, this is football, not hockey. If the guy taunts, throw the flag. But don't wait to see if Whitner got his feelings hurt to decide if it's taunting or not. Make a decision and stick with it.

[RockStar36]

I don't think that's a good example at all. In hockey, the guy who did the tripping did the tripping. The other guy dove to embellish it, but they were gonna call it anyway.

And anyway, this is football, not hockey. If the guy taunts, throw the flag. But don't wait to see if Whitner got his feelings hurt to decide if it's taunting or not. Make a decision and stick with it.

It's a great example. It happens all the time in hockey. ALL THE TIME. Sometimes they let everything go and the play continues. Sometimes they call the tripping and the dive just to let them wash each other out. You should watch more hockey. It's a good example.

[Dr. Lecter]

I don't think that's a good example at all. In hockey, the guy who did the tripping did the tripping. The other guy dove to embellish it, but they were gonna call it anyway.

And anyway, this is football, not hockey. If the guy taunts, throw the flag. But don't wait to see if Whitner got his feelings hurt to decide if it's taunting or not. Make a decision and stick with it.

And we all know how great an consitent the NFL officials are.

Since that happened in front of me:

They threw on flag and then immediately after threw the second. At the time of the second, Higgins was just doing a little dance.

It looked like, to me, they flagged Whitner and then decided they had to call Higgins too.

Not saying is right, but it appeared to be a real possibility.

[mysticsoto]

If Donte got interceptions, he'd be doing his job. Right now, he's not.

Do you see what you just did? You lowered the standards to defend Whitner. Rather than making big plays, distracting the QB is now enough to be considered good. That's what drives me nuts on this board. If Whitner doesn't live up to expectations in one area, the criteria gets changed so he can still be considered good.

I just don't understand the unwillingness to call it like it is with this guy.

Do you see what you did? You ignored everything Donte does that has been proven to be helping winning games, b'cse they didn't fit the criteria that you want him to have on a stat sheet.

[OpIv37]

Do you see what you did? You ignored everything Donte does that has been proven to be helping winning games, b'cse they didn't fit the criteria that you want him to have on a stat sheet.

what does this have to do with me?

It has to do with what constitutes big plays for a S.

You're saying Whitner's good because he does D, E and F, but you're ignoring the fact that he doesn't do A, B and C. It's good that he does D, E and F, but doing D, E and F properly doesn't excuse him from having to be evaluated on A, B and C as well.

What is it about Whitner that people can't just admit it when he has a bad game? The guy was frustrated because his team was struggling to keep up with an inferior opponent, so he took an undisciplined penalty. But everyone here sees it as "sending a message."

Sometimes (usually), Whitner is mediocre on the field. But rather than just say he's mediocre, people change the criteria used to evaluate him. Or they blame the system, the front 7 or the opposing QB for not challenging him.

I just don't see why people have this pathological need to defend the guy. If he screws up or doesn't live up to expectations, just admit it and move on to the next game.

[justasportsfan]

Making spectacular plays and making correct plays are not mutually exclusive. You play consistent the majority of the time, and when the opportunity for a spectacular play comes up, you make it.

Whitner does ok with the first part. He sucks at the second part.

Top 5.

[mysticsoto]

what does this have to do with me?

It has to do with what constitutes big plays for a S.

You're saying Whitner's good because he does D, E and F, but you're ignoring the fact that he doesn't do A, B and C. It's good that he does D, E and F, but doing D, E and F properly doesn't excuse him from having to be evaluated on A, B and C as well.

What is it about Whitner that people can't just admit it when he has a bad game? The guy was frustrated because his team was struggling to keep up with an inferior opponent, so he took an undisciplined penalty. But everyone here sees it as "sending a message."

Sometimes (usually), Whitner is mediocre on the field. But rather than just say he's mediocre, people change the criteria used to evaluate him. Or they blame the system, the front 7 or the opposing QB for not challenging him.

I just don't see why people have this pathological need to defend the guy. If he screws up or doesn't live up to expectations, just admit it and move on to the next game.

You're still doing it Op. You're ignoring A, B and C just b'cse he's not doing D, E and F. Him doing A, B and C is helping us win games. Why doesn't he have more interceptions? Well, teams aren't throwing across the middle very often - I showed that in a post in my last thread. Why doesn't he have more tackles? Well Stroud, Williams, the entire Dline and Poz aren't letting anyone hardly get passed them. And when teams run, they run away from the side that Donte is on when he plays on the line, that is. Fact is, we have a better team this year and the Dline is helping prevent runners from getting through or for long periods to be available for passing. So how is Donte being used now...as a wild card to act unpredictably to offenses. Sometimes he blitzed, sometimes they are fake, sometimes he drops back, sometimes he takes on a blocker to help stop runs...etc. He's being used effectively and yet, you can't see that. All you can see is that his stat sheet isn't full and therefore, he's sucking...

[ublinkwescore]

:rolleyes:

There's plenty of doubt. That's conjecture, not fact. No one knows what would have happened had Whitner done the right thing and NOT taken a cheap shot.

My god, just disappear already - no one's gonna miss you.

BTW, I guarantee a win again this week.

[tat2dmike77]

All the raider fans around me were laughing. Because of the penalty.

But i guess we had the last laugh.

Oh and i agree with the hit to. I wish he would of hit him harder.

[justasportsfan]

The guy was frustrated because his team was struggling to keep up with an inferior opponent, so he took an undisciplined penalty.
.
haha! Op pretending to be a mind reader.

[Pride]

For the record, I like Op...

but did we not learn anything from Wys? The more you bate him, the more he is going to respond, which in turns frustrates the hell out of you.

If you don't agree with him, say your piece, then let it drop!

[ublinkwescore]

BTW, Whitner did do the right thing.

By doing that, I think he made our team dig down deeper than they had been all game.

[tat2dmike77]

OP the team is 3-0 and here you are nit picking at every little thing you can. Hey dude go for it. I'm happy and most Bills fans are as well.

I will tell you this. When Buffalo go the ball with just over 2 minutes left in the game. You could feel it inside the stadium that the Bills were going to win. I know what you're thinking oh but the raiders are an inferior opponet.

Dude i have always said there is no inferior opponet at the pro level. Every week any team can win.

And why do hate whitner so much? Did he kick your dog? Key your car? Put sugar in your gas tank? What did he do to you?

[ParanoidAndroid]

I didn't say it had no impact.

I said we don't KNOW if it had an impact or not because there is no way of knowing what would have happened if Whitner didn't make the hit.

Just because a player says something to the media doesn't make it true.

That is a nice logical approach....and absolutely no fun at all. Why not let someone believe in something for once without busting their orange, OP?
Would it hurt that much to let them have their fun?

[OpIv37]

You're still doing it Op. You're ignoring A, B and C just b'cse he's not doing D, E and F. Him doing A, B and C is helping us win games. Why doesn't he have more interceptions? Well, teams aren't throwing across the middle very often - I showed that in a post in my last thread. Why doesn't he have more tackles? Well Stroud, Williams, the entire Dline and Poz aren't letting anyone hardly get passed them. And when teams run, they run away from the side that Donte is on when he plays on the line, that is. Fact is, we have a better team this year and the Dline is helping prevent runners from getting through or for long periods to be available for passing. So how is Donte being used now...as a wild card to act unpredictably to offenses. Sometimes he blitzed, sometimes they are fake, sometimes he drops back, sometimes he takes on a blocker to help stop runs...etc. He's being used effectively and yet, you can't see that. All you can see is that his stat sheet isn't full and therefore, he's sucking...

This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. Suddenly, he doesn't have to do A, B and C in your eyes because he's doing D, E and F.

Last year the front 7 wasn't getting enough tackles, so Whitner had to play up to help them. This year, they're getting TOO MANY tackles so now that's hurting Whitner's stats too. Which is it? In your eyes, no matter what the front 7 does, it hurts Whitner. You're not holding him accountable.

And you're obsessed with stats. I'm talking about big plays- game changing plays- which usually show up on stat sheets as well. But it's not purely about stats- the stats are just one way of telling the story.

Your whole post is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. It's loaded with every excuse in the book for Whitner's lack of production, and since he wasn't producing by the usual criteria, you changed the criteria.

Just admit that he's been mediocre and move on. Why is this guy above the same scrutiny that we apply to everyone else?

[OpIv37]

That is a nice logical approach....and absolutely no fun at all. Why not let someone believe in something for once without busting their orange, OP?
Would it hurt that much to let them have their fun?

No, because they're propagating supposed "facts" that they don't actually know to make Whitner look better. I'm so frustrated by this board's pathological need to pump up Whitner.

[OpIv37]

OP the team is 3-0 and here you are nit picking at every little thing you can. Hey dude go for it. I'm happy and most Bills fans are as well.

I will tell you this. When Buffalo go the ball with just over 2 minutes left in the game. You could feel it inside the stadium that the Bills were going to win. I know what you're thinking oh but the raiders are an inferior opponet.

Dude i have always said there is no inferior opponet at the pro level. Every week any team can win.

And why do hate whitner so much? Did he kick your dog? Key your car? Put sugar in your gas tank? What did he do to you?

For the last time, I don't hate Whitner.

I'm frustrated with his mediocrity and I get more frustrated when I have to come on here and watch half the board talk about how great he is. It's like the guy's above scrutiny around here and it just doesn't make sense.

I agree that this team as a whole has a different feel to it- in close games, it feels like they're going to win instead of a feeling of "Oh god, don't do something stupid" every time the QB drops back. But I don't think that had anything to do with Whitner's hit- it felt the same way in the Jax game.

[justasportsfan]

Just because a player says something to the media doesn't make it true.

HOw do you know whats true and what isn't?

[PECKERWOOD]

...but I thought he wasn't showboating. :snicker:

LOL @ Kyle Williams

Funny how some morons get away with saying that crap here.

[OpIv37]

HOw do you know whats true and what isn't?

I don't know if it's true or not. I said in my post that I don't know if it's true or not, but you conveniently didn't quote that part.

But they're assuming it's true just because he said it to the media, and that's a faulty assumption.

[madness]

For the record, I like Op...

but did we not learn anything from Wys? The more you bate him, the more he is going to respond, which in turns frustrates the hell out of you.

If you don't agree with him, say your piece, then let it drop!

...but it makes for some excellent reading!

I wouldn't put Op anywhere close to Wys though. Everything usually falls into place once Op has to eat his 1/4 crow and in the end, somewhere inside that dark soul, Op is happy he was wrong. Wys was just....well...Wys. :ill:

[justasportsfan]

I don't know if it's true or not. I said in my post that I don't know if it's true or not, but you conveniently didn't quote that part.

But they're assuming it's true just because he said it to the media, and that's a faulty assumption.

this post says you know what happened therefore what you blelieve to be true.



The guy was frustrated because his team was struggling to keep up with an inferior opponent, so he took an undisciplined penalty..

[mercyrule]

Oh, give him a break. That was an undisciplined penalty.

Still liked it.

[Bone]

I agree 100% with what Whitner did. Like he said you don't show us up in our own house. Higgins was being an ******* and slowing down and was probably running his mouth on the way into the end zone and Whitner was going to take his ****.

[OpIv37]

I agree 100% with what Whitner did. Like he said you don't show us up in our own house. Higgins was being an ******* and slowing down and was probably running his mouth on the way into the end zone and Whitner was going to take his ****.

You agree with costing your team yards and intentionally putting an opponent at risk of injury with an illegal play?

[mysticsoto]

This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. Suddenly, he doesn't have to do A, B and C in your eyes because he's doing D, E and F.

Last year the front 7 wasn't getting enough tackles, so Whitner had to play up to help them. This year, they're getting TOO MANY tackles so now that's hurting Whitner's stats too. Which is it? In your eyes, no matter what the front 7 does, it hurts Whitner. You're not holding him accountable.

And you're obsessed with stats. I'm talking about big plays- game changing plays- which usually show up on stat sheets as well. But it's not purely about stats- the stats are just one way of telling the story.

Your whole post is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. It's loaded with every excuse in the book for Whitner's lack of production, and since he wasn't producing by the usual criteria, you changed the criteria.

Just admit that he's been mediocre and move on. Why is this guy above the same scrutiny that we apply to everyone else?

LOL! Nice try to change it around. You're the one obsessed with stats. I could care less as long as he's being effective and that he is.

What's funny is...if we would have lost last week, you'd be the 1st one *****ing about the Bills had no fire in the game. Whitner lights the players fire and you're still complaining about him not to mention still refusing to give him credit for lighting them up.

And you're not listening to what I'm saying b'cse you've already made up your mind to your position and are stubborn. How can he make interceptions when only 3 balls are thrown in the air in a half? Or when most balls that are thrown were toward the sidelines where CBs generally are?

You want him to make big plays but there have been no opportunities for big plays. We've shutdown the run games of opponents and even when they throw, Whitner may be rushing the QB into incompletions with blitzes...

But I know, I know...all this is going in one ear and out the other with you...if he doesn't have the stats, he's just no good to you...

[justasportsfan]

this Op vs. mystic . :movie:

[OpIv37]

LOL! Nice try to change it around. You're the one obsessed with stats. I could care less as long as he's being effective and that he is.

What's funny is...if we would have lost last week, you'd be the 1st one *****ing about the Bills had no fire in the game. Whitner lights the players fire and you're still complaining about him not to mention still refusing to give him credit for lighting them up.

And you're not listening to what I'm saying b'cse you've already made up your mind to your position and are stubborn. How can he make interceptions when only 3 balls are thrown in the air in a half? Or when most balls that are thrown were toward the sidelines where CBs generally are?

You want him to make big plays but there have been no opportunities for big plays. We've shutdown the run games of opponents and even when they throw, Whitner may be rushing the QB into incompletions with blitzes...

But I know, I know...all this is going in one ear and out the other with you...if he doesn't have the stats, he's just no good to you...

You're ASSUMING that Whitner's play fired up the team. You're ASSUMING that the team would have had no fire without Whitner's hit. Why? Because it gives you the opportunity to give Whitner CREDIT when in fact he should be CRITICIZED. Seems to me that the team had plenty of fire in Jacksonville and didn't need an illegal play to get motivated. But why would we want to pass up the opportunity to make Whitner look good? :rolleyes:

So, through 33 games, Whitner's only had 10 opportunities to make big plays? Give me a ****ing break. (INT's plus FF's plus Passes Defensed plus sacks plus Big hits)

You know, he had the opportunity to tackle Higgins. It wasn't much of an opportunity and it would have taken a spectacular play, but he didn't do it. There's at least one that he didn't make.

What about big hits and forcing fumbles. He's a "wild card". He plays up int he run game. And he has a reputation as being a big hitter. But he has one big hit in his entire career and one forced fumble in his entire career. His role on the D doesn't limit those.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Op you are wrong just drop it.

[justasportsfan]

You're ASSUMING that Whitner's play fired up the team. You're ASSUMING that the team would have had no fire without Whitner's hit. Why? because the qb said so and so did other players? thats a better source than anything you can come up with.

[DrastiK]

I loved the fact Whitner did it, but i doubt i would agree with my stance on it at all if i was in the opposing position.

[Captain gameboy]

Isn't this horse dead yet?

[MikeInRoch]

Because it gives you the opportunity to give Whitner CREDIT when in fact he should be CRITICIZED.

I disagree. That is not the reason he (or a lot of people) think the hit was a good thing. People here seem to think that it was good to fire up the team and to "defend their house".

I agree with you about the hit. It was a dumb, undisciplined hit. I'd much prefer that he laid that receiver out with a legal hit at the very next opportunity. The Bills are extremely lucky that his hit did not cost them 15 years, and even the game.

[Lexwhat]

Come on guys, let's be real ...

Whitner has NOT lived up to his hype as the #8 pick, in any way. If someone wants to see an elite strong safety, who plays well AND is a leader, look at Troy Polamalu.

Even with stats aside, Polamalu is always all over the field making plays. Go watch a Steelers game. Whitner is nowhere near that level.

I like Whitner, just as I like Kyle Williams or Chris Kelsey, but he's not much different than many of the 3rd/4th/5th round draft picks starting at Safety in the league today.

Now, I am willing to give Whitner a pass for the past 2 years, since the D-Line was so bad. But this year he has no excuses, and should be making a big impact (passes defended, tackles for loss, INTs, making any type of play). He is still not doing that.

Again, I like Whitner, but can anyone with a straight face say that Whitner is even a top 10 FS/SS in this league?

[mysticsoto]

You're ASSUMING that Whitner's play fired up the team. You're ASSUMING that the team would have had no fire without Whitner's hit. Why? Because it gives you the opportunity to give Whitner CREDIT when in fact he should be CRITICIZED. Seems to me that the team had plenty of fire in Jacksonville and didn't need an illegal play to get motivated. But why would we want to pass up the opportunity to make Whitner look good? :rolleyes:

So, through 33 games, Whitner's only had 10 opportunities to make big plays? Give me a ****ing break. (INT's plus FF's plus Passes Defensed plus sacks plus Big hits)

You know, he had the opportunity to tackle Higgins. It wasn't much of an opportunity and it would have taken a spectacular play, but he didn't do it. There's at least one that he didn't make.

What about big hits and forcing fumbles. He's a "wild card". He plays up int he run game. And he has a reputation as being a big hitter. But he has one big hit in his entire career and one forced fumble in his entire career. His role on the D doesn't limit those.

I'm not assuming anything. Trent and many Bills players said it did fire them up. You're the one assuming that he/they only said that for PR. Much like you assumed last year that Jauron was saying that DiGiorgio was looking good simply for PR...and you were wrong then also!

Again, I asked you this before...do you think Whitner chose NOT to tackle Higgins??? Last time I asked you this you said, no, yet you still continue to bring it up as though you think he did...make up your mind and stop bringing it up if you don't think that's the case!

[OpIv37]

I'm not assuming anything. Trent and many Bills players said it did fire them up. You're the one assuming that he/they only said that for PR. Much like you assumed last year that Jauron was saying that DiGiorgio was looking good simply for PR...and you were wrong then also!

Again, I asked you this before...do you think Whitner chose NOT to tackle Higgins??? Last time I asked you this you said, no, yet you still continue to bring it up as though you think he did...make up your mind and stop bringing it up if you don't think that's the case!

Well obviously he didn't intentionally miss the tackle. But he wasn't good enough to get the job done. A S picked at #8 should be able to make those kinds of plays. Not every time, and not every play or everything he does will be spectacular. But once in a while, I'd like to see him do something that makes me go "wow" and it NEVER happens.

Do you honestly think the team WOULDN'T have had the fire to win the game without Whitner's hit? I think that's selling our team short. And I'm not assuming anything- I'm saying we have no way of knowing what they were thinking. You're assuming they told the truth to the media and that's not a safe assumption.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Michael Huff only has 9 tackles and no INTs... :shakeno:

Imagine the Raiders OP equivilant he must be losing it completely.

[mysticsoto]

Well obviously he didn't intentionally miss the tackle. But he wasn't good enough to get the job done. A S picked at #8 should be able to make those kinds of plays. Not every time, and not every play or everything he does will be spectacular. But once in a while, I'd like to see him do something that makes me go "wow" and it NEVER happens.

Do you honestly think the team WOULDN'T have had the fire to win the game without Whitner's hit? I think that's selling our team short. And I'm not assuming anything- I'm saying we have no way of knowing what they were thinking. You're assuming they told the truth to the media and that's not a safe assumption.

You're full of crap. They said the incident fired them up and their play showed it. You can be in denial all you want. It happened and their improved play backed up what they said...on the other hand, there is NOTHING to back up your "assumption" that they are not telling the truth to the media.

And by the way, if all you said was, I'd like Whitner to make more plays, that'd be alot different than making him sound like he does nothing on the team and doesn't contribute at all. But the way you talk about him...as Justa has mentioned...it almost sounds like you'd prefer Wilson or someone else in there instead.

[RockStar36]

Come on guys, let's be real ...

Whitner has NOT lived up to his hype as the #8 pick, in any way. If someone wants to see an elite strong safety, who plays well AND is a leader, look at Troy Polamalu.

Even with stats aside, Polamalu is always all over the field making plays. Go watch a Steelers game. Whitner is nowhere near that level.

I like Whitner, just as I like Kyle Williams or Chris Kelsey, but he's not much different than many of the 3rd/4th/5th round draft picks starting at Safety in the league today.

Now, I am willing to give Whitner a pass for the past 2 years, since the D-Line was so bad. But this year he has no excuses, and should be making a big impact (passes defended, tackles for loss, INTs, making any type of play). He is still not doing that.

Again, I like Whitner, but can anyone with a straight face say that Whitner is even a top 10 FS/SS in this league?

Is it really fair to compare Whitner to one of if not the best in the league? That's like saying Trent Edwards is "ok" but he isn't nearly as good as Tom Brady.

[tat2dmike77]

For the last time, I don't hate Whitner.

I'm frustrated with his mediocrity and I get more frustrated when I have to come on here and watch half the board talk about how great he is. It's like the guy's above scrutiny around here and it just doesn't make sense.

I agree that this team as a whole has a different feel to it- in close games, it feels like they're going to win instead of a feeling of "Oh god, don't do something stupid" every time the QB drops back. But I don't think that had anything to do with Whitner's hit- it felt the same way in the Jax game.

Fair enough. But whitner is the best option at his position we have right now. So if i were you i would just grit your teeth and hope for the best.

In my mind though wins are all that matters.

[RockStar36]

15 tackles, .5 sack, 0 INT for LaRon Landry - Drafted 6th overall

[OpIv37]

You're full of crap. They said the incident fired them up and their play showed it. You can be in denial all you want. It happened and their improved play backed up what they said...on the other hand, there is NOTHING to back up your "assumption" that they are not telling the truth to the media.

And by the way, if all you said was, I'd like Whitner to make more plays, that'd be alot different than making him sound like he does nothing on the team and doesn't contribute at all. But the way you talk about him...as Justa has mentioned...it almost sounds like you'd prefer Wilson or someone else in there instead.

I'M NOT ASSUMING THAT THEY AREN' T TELLING THE TRUTH. The facts are that if they disapproved of the hit, they had reason to lie to the media. So what they said can't be taken as proof of anything either way. There is no assumption- it's simple logic that your brain seems incapable of handling.

The team had plenty of fire to win in Jacksonville last week without an illegal hit- that's a fact you conveniently neglect. Why? Because it doesn't give you the opportunity to turn Whitner into a hero for a bonehead play.

As far as how I talk about Whitner- I'm simply trying to balance this board out and get people to look at Whitner objectively. But people on this board are so intent on kissing his ass, regardless of how mediocre he is. I have to be relentless about it just to balance it out somewhat. I really don't think he's bad- I think he's average and I'm disappointed that he hasn't lived up to the hype. Then I come on here and see people talking him up anyway. That annoys me- it shows people here are willing to settle for less regarding this team.

And as long as we're on this topic, can we at least dispel the myth that Whitner's a big hitter? Yeah, he clocked Ocho Cinco last year, but that was the only big hit of his career. It annoys me that people here still describe him as a "big hitter" almost without fail."

[THATHURMANATOR]

Is it really fair to compare Whitner to one of if not the best in the league? That's like saying Trent Edwards is "ok" but he isn't nearly as good as Tom Brady.
EXACTLY!!! Name 5 better safetys besides Polumalu

[OpIv37]

15 tackles, .5 sack, 0 INT for LaRon Landry - Drafted 6th overall

Landry also has a year less experience than Whitner, and I've seen him clock a few people this season. Whitner hasn't even done that.

[justasportsfan]

Come on guys, let's be real ...

Whitner has NOT lived up to his hype as the #8 pick, in any way. If someone wants to see an elite strong safety, who plays well AND is a leader, look at Troy Polamalu.


I completely agree. He's not as bad however as Op makes him out to be either.

Not fair to compare him with Troy. Troy's been in the league longer and hasn't had to go through a rebuilding phase like Donte.

[RockStar36]

Landry also has a year less experience than Whitner, and I've seen him clock a few people this season. Whitner hasn't even done that.

Oh..my mistake. I thought a tackle was a tackle. I didn't realize that only BIG hits were important.

[OpIv37]

Oh..my mistake. I thought a tackle was a tackle. I didn't realize that only BIG hits were important.

they are when people keep regurgitating this myth that Whitner is a "big hitter."

Whitner makes plenty of tackles- nothing wrong with his play in that regard. But he doesn't make any big plays and that's a big source of my frustration with him.

[RockStar36]

they are when people keep regurgitating this myth that Whitner is a "big hitter."

Whitner makes plenty of tackles- nothing wrong with his play in that regard. But he doesn't make any big plays and that's a big source of my frustration with him.

So he isn't a big hitter because he doesn't have highlight reel hits? I'm confused. I've seen plenty of good solid tackles from Whitner. That is exactly what I expect of him.

[mysticsoto]

I'M NOT ASSUMING THAT THEY AREN' T TELLING THE TRUTH. The facts are that if they disapproved of the hit, they had reason to lie to the media. So what they said can't be taken as proof of anything either way. There is no assumption- it's simple logic that your brain seems incapable of handling.

The team had plenty of fire to win in Jacksonville last week without an illegal hit- that's a fact you conveniently neglect. Why? Because it doesn't give you the opportunity to turn Whitner into a hero for a bonehead play.

As far as how I talk about Whitner- I'm simply trying to balance this board out and get people to look at Whitner objectively. But people on this board are so intent on kissing his ass, regardless of how mediocre he is. I have to be relentless about it just to balance it out somewhat. I really don't think he's bad- I think he's average and I'm disappointed that he hasn't lived up to the hype. Then I come on here and see people talking him up anyway. That annoys me- it shows people here are willing to settle for less regarding this team.

And as long as we're on this topic, can we at least dispel the myth that Whitner's a big hitter? Yeah, he clocked Ocho Cinco last year, but that was the only big hit of his career. It annoys me that people here still describe him as a "big hitter" almost without fail."

Well I presented something to backup what they said - their play. What have you presented to backup their possibly lying? Nothing. You lose. Like last year when you said Jauron and company were just talking PR about DiG's improved playing, you were wrong about that just being PR talk. You ate crow on numerous occasions and once again you are talking out of your ass without anything to back it up.

As to them having fire at JAX the previous week? I fail to see what that has to do with their play this past game. They clearly showed for 3 qtrs a complete lack of intensity. Not all teams can just turn it on and off all the time. Clearly, after Whitner's tackle, the team got fired up. Go look at the 1st 3 qtr's play again and watch the difference at the end.

[OpIv37]

So he isn't a big hitter because he doesn't have highlight reel hits? I'm confused. I've seen plenty of good solid tackles from Whitner. That is exactly what I expect of him.

Solid tackles are different than big hits. I agree- Whitner makes solid tackles. But he rarely if ever makes big hits.

[RockStar36]

Ugh...I give up.

It's like arguing with a brick wall.

[OpIv37]

Well I presented something to backup what they said - their play. What have you presented to backup their possibly lying? Nothing. You lose. Like last year when you said Jauron and company were just talking PR about DiG's improved playing, you were wrong about that just being PR talk. You ate crow on numerous occasions and once again you are talking out of your ass without anything to back it up.

As to them having fire at JAX the previous week? I fail to see what that has to do with their play this past game. They clearly showed for 3 qtrs a complete lack of intensity. Not all teams can just turn it on and off all the time. Clearly, after Whitner's tackle, the team got fired up. Go look at the 1st 3 qtr's play again and watch the difference at the end.

I don't want to re-hash last year's arguments but DiGi was definitely a step down from Poz so I don't know where you get off saying I was wrong about that.

You are so willing to give the credit to Whitner. Could it be that the team realized it was their last chance and finally pulled their **** together? Could it be that Higgins' taunting motivated them on its' own without the Whitner hit? Could it be that the Raiders got tired, or complacent with a two score lead? I don't know if any of those things are true, but they have as much chance of being true as your "Whitner motivation" theory. So, quit trying to give the guy credit for an undisciplined, illegal, dangerous play when you have no facts to back it up.

[Lexwhat]

Is it really fair to compare Whitner to one of if not the best in the league? That's like saying Trent Edwards is "ok" but he isn't nearly as good as Tom Brady.


Whitner doesn't have to play exactly like Polamalu, but I was using him as an example to illustrate the gap between Whitner and an elite strong safety. Whitner just doesn't make big plays, even with all the physicial ability in the world.

Again, he doesn't have to play like Polamalu, but any team drafting someone that high would expect more from a 1st rounder than a 3rd/4th/5th rounder, don't you think?

In fact, the Bills were interested in obtaining Marlon McCree this offseason, and thought about moving Whitner to FS. Even they recognized that Whitner wasn't making a big impact at SS.

As for Trent Edwards, it's not the same thing. Edwards is playing like a top 10 QB, while Whitner is not even a top 10 safety.

[Lexwhat]

EXACTLY!!! Name 5 better safetys besides Polumalu

Read my post just before this.

[THATHURMANATOR]

[QUOTE=OpIv37]they are when people keep regurgitating this myth that Whitner is a "big hitter."

QUOTE]
Who Op Name names?

[Lexwhat]

I completely agree. He's not as bad however as Op makes him out to be either.

Not fair to compare him with Troy. Troy's been in the league longer and hasn't had to go through a rebuilding phase like Donte.


Read my post again. Like I said above, I was illustrating the gap between elite status and Donte Whitner. I can live with Whitner not being # 1.

But IMO, he should at least be top 10 RIGHT NOW, but he's not even at that level either. Whitner has no excuses this year. He better start making more of a difference, otherwise his draft position is unjustified.

[Philagape]

Is it really fair to compare Whitner to one of if not the best in the league?

Why not? Players drafted eighth overall should be one of the best in the league

[Lexwhat]

Why not? Players drafted eighth overall should be one of the best in the league


Even if he doesn't play like Polamalu, Whitner should still be playing better than he is. As it stands now, Whitner is an average safety.

Elite players can develop from any round, or can even be undrafted, which is why I am not expecting Whitner to be the best in the league. But like I said, I don't think top 10 is too much to ask for.

[THATHURMANATOR]

He is top 10

[gr8slayer]

He's better than Huff.

[gr8slayer]

Hell, I'd take him over everyone drafted before him except Hawk and Williams.

[OpIv37]

Who Op Name names?

http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?t=159003&highlight=whitner+hitter

BMN, Tatonka, Mitchell59, BuffaloFever, im4bflo, yordad, njsue, LifetimeBillsFan, TigerJ

And that's just one thread.

[Jan Reimers]

Are we actually arguing over whether or not Whitner is a "big hitter?" Who cares, as long as he makes tackles and plays his position well.

Jeez, there's enough nit-picking crap on this board to make the Pope curse.

[OpIv37]

Are we actually arguing over whether or not Whitner is a "big hitter?" Who cares, as long as he makes tackles and plays his position well.

Jeez, there's enough nit-picking crap on this board to make the Pope curse.

I care, because people keep saying it to prop the guy up when it's not true. It's based on reputation and has nothing to do with reality.

I'm sick of this guy getting so much credit that he doesn't deserve around here.

[Jan Reimers]

Op, I think you are the reincarnation of my Aunt Helen. If someone said the sky was blue, she'd say it was red and argue over it for hours.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Op punched in for 8 hours today arguing a point he was wrong about the entire time!! Kudos to him for dedication at least! :bf1:

[Oaf]

If he doesn't make that hit, Oakland kicks from their own 15 to McKelvin making that crucial TD drive at 6:30 a whole lot easier. I don't think people realize how much of an accomplishment it was moving 70 yards down the field in two minutes when you're down two scores and the D knows you have to throw.

[Night Train]

Op, I think you are the reincarnation of my Aunt Helen. If someone said the sky was blue, she'd say it was red and argue over it for hours.
:rofl:

[hydro]

Alright, OP. So if you are keeping track of how many hard hits Whitner makes. What exactly is the reason why it's so important?

[Night Train]

We won the game and Whitner only solidified himself... again... with the locker room.

Love his game and leadership. Worth every penny.

[OpIv37]

Alright, OP. So if you are keeping track of how many hard hits Whitner makes. What exactly is the reason why it's so important?

1. Because everyone thinks he's a big hitter and he's not.
2. Because he's the #8 overall draft pick and should be making big plays, whicn include big hits.
3. All the Whitner apologists claim that he doesn't make big plays because the system doesn't give him the opportunity. However, since he comes up in run support, opportunities for big hits should be there.
3. There are no official stats on "big hits" so there's no way to tell unless someone keeps track.

[OpIv37]

We won the game and Whitner only solidified himself... again... with the locker room.

Love his game and leadership. Worth every penny.

So you're in favor of paying for locker room leadership over on-the-field performance? The guy shouldn't get paid like a top 10 draft pick to be a cheerleader. Hell, Hargrove did that last year for league minimum.

[Typ0]

So you're in favor of paying for locker room leadership over on-the-field performance? The guy shouldn't get paid like a top 10 draft pick to be a cheerleader. Hell, Hargrove did that last year for league minimum.

how easy it is to say that. It's about finding the right mix OP not about a bunch of individual over performers.

By the way, you never did define what "big hit" meant. I see an item on the stat sheet that says tackles I don't see one that says big hits. Please let us know what the hell you are talking about.

[hydro]

So why is the big hit important? Big hit or tackle. What makes one better than the other?

[gr8slayer]

So why is the big hit important? Big hit or tackle. What makes one better than the other?
I'll take great tackling 90% of the time over bad tackling and a big hit 10% of the time. Let me set the record straight; DONTE WHITNER HAS NEVER BEEN, AND WILL NEVER BE A BIG HITTER. He wasn't in college and he isn't in the pros. He's a great tackler that breaks down, stays low, and wraps up.

[OpIv37]

how easy it is to say that. It's about finding the right mix OP not about a bunch of individual over performers.

By the way, you never did define what "big hit" meant. I see an item on the stat sheet that says tackles I don't see one that says big hits. Please let us know what the hell you are talking about.

You know it when you see it. That hit on CJ last year was a big hit.

Yeah, I know, it's subjective and it can be debated. But if anyone thinks they saw Whitner make any big hits other than the one on CJ, please share which ones they were. Notice that not one person has offered up a specific play that could be considered a "big hit" by Whitner yet (other than the CJ one).

[Typ0]

I'll take great tackling 90% of the time over bad tackling and a big hit 10% of the time. Let me set the record straight; DONTE WHITNER HAS NEVER BEEN, AND WILL NEVER BE A BIG HITTER. He wasn't in college and he isn't in the pros.


what is big hit?

[OpIv37]

I'll take great tackling 90% of the time over bad tackling and a big hit 10% of the time. Let me set the record straight; DONTE WHITNER HAS NEVER BEEN, AND WILL NEVER BE A BIG HITTER. He wasn't in college and he isn't in the pros. He's a great tackler that breaks down, stays low, and wraps up.

Why can't someone be great tackling 90% of the time and big hit 10% of the time?

Being a big hitter doesn't mean you have to be a bad tackler. It's just that too many guys with that reputation go for the big hit when it's not there and that hurts their tackling.

[gr8slayer]

what is big hit?
See Roy Williams (Dallas) 2002-2006

[Typ0]

You know it when you see it. That hit on CJ last year was a big hit.

Yeah, I know, it's subjective and it can be debated. But if anyone thinks they saw Whitner make any big hits other than the one on CJ, please share which ones they were. Notice that not one person has offered up a specific play that could be considered a "big hit" by Whitner yet (other than the CJ one).

I know. But big hits are totally irrelevant other than you are watching the TV and you get some entertainment out of it...so you notice it more and you want more of that. It has nothing to do with winning. Well, I'm not saying it hurts and I'm sure it helps the momentum but this team has been very bad at times. It's not because of a lack of big hits and hitting big doesn't mean winning a superbowl.

[gr8slayer]

Why can't someone be great tackling 90% of the time and big hit 10% of the time?

Being a big hitter doesn't mean you have to be a bad tackler. It's just that too many guys with that reputation go for the big hit when it's not there and that hurts their tackling.
Most guys who are big hitters can't tackle for crap because they are always going for the knock out blow.

[Slim]

Most guys who are big hitters can't tackle for crap because they are always going for the knock out blow.

The Roy Williams example is spot on.

[gr8slayer]

The Roy Williams example is spot on.
And he is one of the worst cover Safeties in the league because of it, there was actually applaud when we found out he'd miss a few weeks. Now we don't have to worry so much about being beat over the top because he's trying to dish out blows he can no longer dish out.

[OpIv37]

I know. But big hits are totally irrelevant other than you are watching the TV and you get some entertainment out of it...so you notice it more and you want more of that. It has nothing to do with winning. Well, I'm not saying it hurts and I'm sure it helps the momentum but this team has been very bad at times. It's not because of a lack of big hits and hitting big doesn't mean winning a superbowl.

Not true. Big hits jar the ball loose and cause fumbles and incompletions. Big hits intimidate the receivers and make them more tenative. Big hits get the crowd into the game. Everyone's saying that Donte's relatively weak tackle in the endzone got the team fired up- what if he clocked someone coming across the middle when it MEANT something in terms of the game.

And you know what? If Donte got interceptions or at least tipped balls, I could live with him not being a big hitter. It's just one more thing he gets credit for without actually doing and one more aspect of his position in which he could excel but doesn't. And it's one area of the position that's not being limited by how Whitner is asked to play in the D, yet Whitner still doesn't do it.

[Typ0]

Not true. Big hits jar the ball loose and cause fumbles and incompletions. Big hits intimidate the receivers and make them more tenative. Big hits get the crowd into the game. Everyone's saying that Donte's relatively weak tackle in the endzone got the team fired up- what if he clocked someone coming across the middle when it MEANT something in terms of the game.

And you know what? If Donte got interceptions or at least tipped balls, I could live with him not being a big hitter. It's just one more thing he gets credit for without actually doing and one more aspect of his position in which he could excel but doesn't. And it's one area of the position that's not being limited by how Whitner is asked to play in the D, yet Whitner still doesn't do it.

how do you know it's not a function of the situation he's in and what he's being asked to do?

[hydro]

So why is the big hit important? Big hit or tackle. What makes one better than the other?

Well OP? :tap:

[gr8slayer]

what is big hit?
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[OpIv37]

Well OP? :tap:

dude I answered you already- go back a page.

[OpIv37]

how do you know it's not a function of the situation he's in and what he's being asked to do?

because if he's being asked to come up in run support, it means he's closer to the LOS and he's pursuing the RB.

I really didn't think that required explanation.

But it's ok. It's the "system". We can't ask the almighty Donte Whitner to take responsibility for his play. The coaching staff drafted him at #8 and asked him to do nothing. Yeah, that makes perfect sense.

[hydro]

dude I answered you already- go back a page.

This:


1. Because everyone thinks he's a big hitter and he's not.
2. Because he's the #8 overall draft pick and should be making big plays, whicn include big hits.
3. All the Whitner apologists claim that he doesn't make big plays because the system doesn't give him the opportunity. However, since he comes up in run support, opportunities for big hits should be there.
3. There are no official stats on "big hits" so there's no way to tell unless someone keeps track.

Doesn't answer my question:



Originally Posted by hydrosmak
So why is the big hit important? Big hit or tackle. What makes one better than the other?

[OpIv37]

This:



Doesn't answer my question:





try this:


Not true. Big hits jar the ball loose and cause fumbles and incompletions. Big hits intimidate the receivers and make them more tenative. Big hits get the crowd into the game. Everyone's saying that Donte's relatively weak tackle in the endzone got the team fired up- what if he clocked someone coming across the middle when it MEANT something in terms of the game.

And you know what? If Donte got interceptions or at least tipped balls, I could live with him not being a big hitter. It's just one more thing he gets credit for without actually doing and one more aspect of his position in which he could excel but doesn't. And it's one area of the position that's not being limited by how Whitner is asked to play in the D, yet Whitner still doesn't do it.

[hydro]

Everyone's saying that Donte's relatively weak tackle in the endzone got the team fired up- what if he clocked someone coming across the middle when it MEANT something in terms of the game.

Ok so plays made on the field do pump up the team. :up:

[tat2dmike77]

they are when people keep regurgitating this myth that Whitner is a "big hitter."

Whitner makes plenty of tackles- nothing wrong with his play in that regard. But he doesn't make any big plays and that's a big source of my frustration with him.

Go ask Chad Johnson if he thinks he is a big hitter or not.

[OpIv37]

Go ask Chad Johnson if he thinks he is a big hitter or not.

He had one big hit. That doesn't make him a big hitter.

Anyone can do something once. Sam Adams had one 60 yard rumble for a touchdown. That doesn't make him a dangerous scoring threat. I got in a fight once in 9th grade. That doesn't make me a fighter.

[tat2dmike77]

He had one big hit. That doesn't make him a big hitter.

Anyone can do something once. Sam Adams had one 60 yard rumble for a touchdown. That doesn't make him a dangerous scoring threat. I got in a fight once in 9th grade. That doesn't make me a fighter.

To be honest i don't care.

I just really liked the Johnson hit cause of his mouth and how great he is and so on.

Look i don't know why you are peeved at Whitner but seriouslly man it could be worse. I know he is no Ed Reed or Troy Polomaniomoinue but atleast he is not Roy Williams who completely sucks in coverage. Yes Williams can lay the hit but really that is all he is good for. Oh and having the competition commitee come up with new penalties cause of him (see horsecollar tackle). If you think Henry Jones or Mark "big head" Kelso are walking through that tunnell just stop. We have Whitner and you may as well learn to like it.

Christ OP i thought you would be happy at 3-0 but here you are finding something to not like. I understand your passion but really guy if this is the biggest problem on the team then i think we should all be happy then. I mean considering the past decade if Whitner not playing up to his potential or your standards is the teams biggest problem in your eyes then really why are you *****ing?

[JerseyBoofaloBills]

Go ask Chad Johnson if he thinks he is a big hitter or not.

YA one person in the league..wowie..

Whitner is not a big hitter, because the only evidence you have of him, is one hit..ONE, not an entrie clip of big hits from roy williams like GR8 showed us..one hit, please dude..once i see whitner start laying people out, ill consider him a big hitter, but for now..he's just your average saftey..but dont get me wrong, i did like what he did..i just dont think he's that great as you are saying.

btw, sweeet avatar.

[OpIv37]

To be honest i don't care.

I just really liked the Johnson hit cause of his mouth and how great he is and so on.

Look i don't know why you are peeved at Whitner but seriouslly man it could be worse. I know he is no Ed Reed or Troy Polomaniomoinue but atleast he is not Roy Williams who completely sucks in coverage. Yes Williams can lay the hit but really that is all he is good for. Oh and having the competition commitee come up with new penalties cause of him (see horsecollar tackle). If you think Henry Jones or Mark "big head" Kelso are walking through that tunnell just stop. We have Whitner and you may as well learn to like it.

Christ OP i thought you would be happy at 3-0 but here you are finding something to not like. I understand your passion but really guy if this is the biggest problem on the team then i think we should all be happy then. I mean considering the past decade if Whitner not playing up to his potential or your standards is the teams biggest problem in your eyes then really why are you *****ing?

I agree- Whitner could be worse. He's really not all that bad. But he's average and yet this board is still loaded with people who can't wait to compliment him and defend everything he does. Jason Peters makes a bad play and everyone jumps down his throat. Donte Whitner makes a bad play and everyone argues to death about why it either wasn't Whitner's fault or wasn't a bad play. I just want to know what makes this guy above scrutiny on this board. Why does he get treated differently?

And yes, I'm happy that the team is 3-0. But that doesn't mean I have to be satisfied with every single player on the team. As good as this team has been so far this season, I still don't see us being able to compete consistently with teams like NE (with Brady), Chargers, Steelers, Eagles, Cowboys, etc. And Whitner is one of the areas where I think this team could improve to get to that next level.

[tat2dmike77]

I agree- Whitner could be worse. He's really not all that bad. But he's average and yet this board is still loaded with people who can't wait to compliment him and defend everything he does. Jason Peters makes a bad play and everyone jumps down his throat. Donte Whitner makes a bad play and everyone argues to death about why it either wasn't Whitner's fault or wasn't a bad play. I just want to know what makes this guy above scrutiny on this board. Why does he get treated differently?

And yes, I'm happy that the team is 3-0. But that doesn't mean I have to be satisfied with every single player on the team. As good as this team has been so far this season, I still don't see us being able to compete consistently with teams like NE (with Brady), Chargers, Steelers, Eagles, Cowboys, etc. And Whitner is one of the areas where I think this team could improve to get to that next level.

I think J.Peters dug his grave with the fan base with his holdout situation ya know. So if he misses a block he gets destroyed by all the "experts" here.

I never cared for whitner in the first place. I thought him being a #8 pick was laughable. He is like most players from Ohio State overhyped plain and simple. I don't know why he is given a free pass maybe it's the love affair with Ohio State this board has as well. Who knows.

[ParanoidAndroid]

No, because they're propagating supposed "facts" that they don't actually know to make Whitner look better. I'm so frustrated by this board's pathological need to pump up Whitner.

Does it make a difference?

[THATHURMANATOR]

Op still hasnt admitted to being wrong... WOW!!!

[THATHURMANATOR]

<img src=http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0amb1LLdEvb1q/340x.jpg>

[Dr. Lecter]

Let's keep this going!!!!

I need more ZoneBux!!! This thread kick ass!!!

Whitner >>>>>>>>> Lott?

Anybody else think this too????

(Op's response: Raion Hill >>>>>>>>>>>> Whitner)

[SABURZFAN]

Let's keep this going!!!!

I need more ZoneBux!!! This thread kick ass!!!



i should get you a tin cup and play the herdy gerdy while you're begging.

[hydro]

Whitner > Polamalu > Reed

[OpIv37]

Does it make a difference?

yeah it does.

We should not be praising or rewarding mediocrity. We should expect higher things from our team. And we should hold all players to the same degree of scrutiny instead of ripping on some and making excuses for others.

[Dr. Lecter]

yeah it does.

We should not be praising or rewarding mediocrity. We should expect higher things from our team. And we should hold all players to the same standards instead of ripping on some and making excuses for others.

So you think Ellison has outperformed Whitner? Or Simpson has outperformed Whitner?

Seriously?

[OpIv37]

So you think Ellison has outperformed Whitner? Or Simpson has outperformed Whitner?

Seriously?

I changed it.

All players should be scrutinized in the same manner, but obviously standards and expectations are higher for some than others.

[Dr. Lecter]

I changed it.

All players should be scrutinized in the same manner, but obviously standards and expectations are higher for some than others.

Then you are talking about two different conversations:

1. Is a player playing up to his expectations?

2. Is a player playing well and doing his job?

While there is a part of the conversation that is linked, there is a major part that is not.

Whitner's job, even in a hybrid cover 2, is to stop teams from getting deep. As mystic has cited numerous times, teams just don't throw deep especially across the middle. The reason he was drafted at #8 is that there are few safeties that can do that and w/o that type of player a team can't tun that defense.

One of the reasons Whitner does not have glamorous stats is the type of defense the Bills run.

[OpIv37]

Then you are talking about two different conversations:

1. Is a player playing up to his expectations?

2. Is a player playing well and doing his job?

While there is a part of the conversation that is linked, there is a major part that is not.

Whitner's job, even in a hybrid cover 2, is to stop teams from getting deep. As mystic has cited numerous times, teams just don't throw deep especially across the middle. The reason he was drafted at #8 is that there are few safeties that can do that and w/o that type of player a team can't tun that defense.

One of the reasons Whitner does not have glamorous stats is the type of defense the Bills run.

Excuses, excuses, excuses. This conversation is going in circles.

It's not Whitner's fault, it's the system and the other QB's for not throwing towards him. Are our coaches really dumb enough to pick a guy at #8 and say "we're gonna design our D so you NEVER have the opportunity to make a big play"? I really hope not.

And it's about big plays, not necessarily stats. A big hit on a receiver that jars the ball loose won't show up in the stat line. Neither will a crushing hit on an RB. But if you want to talk stats, forget about glamorous ones. ANY stats would be an improvement because Whitner's stat line is a string of 0's.

[Dr. Lecter]

I made no excuses. I tried explaining some facts to you.

But you refuse to ackonwledge them or even consider them.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Whitner > Polamalu > Reed
:bf1:

[OpIv37]

I made no excuses. I tried explaining some facts to you.

But you refuse to ackonwledge them or even consider them.

They've been considered.

They don't entirely account for a string of zeros in the stat lines and absolutely no big plays. But hey, why hold Whitner accountable when we can continue to blame the system and the opposing QB?

[madness]

GH: "Hey Op, this isn't fantasy football"



Related to that all-for-one mentality, the Bills seems to be a team with no elite talent, but no weaknesses. Would you agree with that?

GH: Now, see, I wouldn't say that. I wouldn't say that. There is elite talent here. I think where we are located geographically, the coverage that we get, leads people to believe a certain thing about our team. I've been on a lot of teams. There are elite players here. Maybe not big names. Maybe not guys that the average fan, looking at a fantasy-football sheet, would say 'Oh, yeah.' But that's not how you build a team.
I think if you look at the successful teams over the years, namely the ones in our division, New England, or a San Diego or an Indianapolis, you don't necessarily go down the roster and say 'first-round pick, first-round pick, first-round pick, eight-year Pro Bowler, six-year Pro Bowler' ... You look at how teams are built, and the teams that are having success are the teams that are doing a good job of bringing players in that fit a system, that can jell into a cohesive unit and know their roles.
So you can say all you want about not being an elite player, but I'll take a guy who plays his role excellent on each and every play than a guy who maybe is an elite player but isn't playing at a high level because he's maybe upset about his role on the team or where he's situated.

I think I misspoke when I said 'no elite talent,' but thanks for setting me straight. What I meant is that the Bills aren't loaded up in any one area of dominance that bails out another area on a weekly basis. There's total balance.

GH: Our game [Sunday] was a perfect example of that. Defense keeps us in the game the whole way through. Then the offense comes around and makes a couple plays. That's the way you've got to win in this league nowadays. It really is. You can't just one-side your way through a season.
Sure, there are anomalies. Sometimes an offense can be just unstoppable. But the NFL isn't fantasy football as much as people like to look at it that way. We have that conversation every week. You can't look at us like fantasy football. It's all about 'Who's going to perform up to their abilities so we can win?'
If you have a lot of guys that know their role on the team, know how to perform that role and do it consistently every week, it doesn't matter what kind of talent you bring in here because that team will win. That's what we've built here as a team.


:bf1:

[OpIv37]

GH: "Hey Op, this isn't fantasy football"



:bf1:

yes, I realize that it isn't fantasy football.

But if guys like Whitner don't step it up and start making plays, winning against the better teams will remain a fantasy for Bills fans.

Why is everyone giving me such a hard time for expecting a #8 draft pick to occasionally make a big play? What's so friggin unreasonable about that?

[billsburgh]

the Bills are winning. The Bills D is much improved over last year. that's all that really matters.

[OpIv37]

the Bills are winning. The Bills D is much improved over last year. that's all that really matters.

It's good that the Bills are winning and that the D is better.

But saying that it's all that matters is short-sighted. Just because the team is winning doesn't mean that all players are playing well. At some point we're going to have to play and beat better teams, and in order to do that we're going to have to improve even more. Some of these guys who are not making plays are going to need to step up.

Winning is great but it doesn't remove accountability. If the company you work for is making a ton of money, does that give you the right to show up an hour late and take a two hour lunch?

[justasportsfan]

http://qmusings.com/images/EnergizerBunny.gif

[gr8slayer]

Whitner > Polamalu > Reed
Whitner > God

[THATHURMANATOR]

Whitner > Jesus

[gr8slayer]

Whitner > Jesus
Yeah but my post is more relevant, God is higher on the totem pole. Your post is worthless.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Yeah but my post is more relevant, God is higher on the totem pole. Your post is worthless.
Bull**** at 8th over all God should be producing more than he is.

[gr8slayer]

Bull**** at 8th over all God should be producing more than he is.
He's just not a hard hitter :ill:

[madness]

yes, I realize that it isn't fantasy football.

But if guys like Whitner don't step it up and start making plays, winning against the better teams will remain a fantasy for Bills fans.

Why is everyone giving me such a hard time for expecting a #8 draft pick to occasionally make a big play? What's so friggin unreasonable about that?

What's so unreasonable about expecting a player to play to the potential of his draft selection? Everything.

The draft is gamble whether you have the first pick or the last pick. Do we really have to see how well #8s did overall going back at least 10 years? Out of 10 of them, how many do you think lived up to their potential? Not many players(out of the whole draft class) are going to justify their draft pick.

Whitner was a candidate for defensive rookie of the year and has steadily improved up to this year. He's become a starter, a leader and has played consistantly in only two years. Most players out of college the same year are still learning their defense or offense and are on avg. two years older then him. How many other football players can you say that about?

On top of it, you're trying to trash a guy who hasn't even completed his third season yet. How is that even remotely justified?

If you evaluated talent like that in the NFL, you'd be wondering why guys you've given up on are playing at probowl levels for other teams.

[OpIv37]

What's so unreasonable about expecting a player to play to the potential of his draft selection? Everything.

The draft is gamble whether you have the first pick or the last pick. Do we really have to see how well #8s did overall going back at least 10 years? Out of 10 of them, how many do you think lived up to their potential? Not many players(out of the whole draft class) are going to justify their draft pick.

Whitner was a candidate for defensive rookie of the year and has steadily improved up to this year. He's become a starter, a leader and has played consistantly in only two years. Most players out of college the same year are still learning their defense or offense and are on avg. two years older then him. How many other football players can you say that about?

On top of it, you're trying to trash a guy who hasn't even completed his third season yet. How is that even remotely justified?

If you evaluated talent like that in the NFL, you'd be wondering why guys you've given up on are playing at probowl levels for other teams.

Wow, talk about revisionist history. Whitner became a starter almost immediately due to over-the-hill, injured safeties. Once Milloy and Vincent were out of the picture, his competition was Coy friggin Wire. Ko Simpson became a starter at the same time for the same reasons. It had more to do with the situation they were in than their individual efforts. But hey, we can NEVER pass on an opportunity to overstate Whitner's accomplishments, can we?

You contradict yourself when you say Whitner became a starter immediately but most players the same year are still learning their O or D. A big portion of that is due to the fact that the previously described situation ALLOWED WHITNER TO BE ON THE FIELD A LOT MORE THAN THEM. So it's not a fair comparison. But hey, yet another chance to overstate Whitner's accomplishments.

The failure of other top 10 draft picks is not an excuse for Whitner or anyone else. Players are still responsible for their performance regardless of what other players from other draft classes have done or not done on other teams.

The guy's had 33 games. Exactly how many games does a player need before we can expect them to play at a high level? Seems to me like the guy's had plenty of experience at this point. Any team that has to wait 3 years to get production out of draft picks (with the exception of QB's) isn't going to go very far.

[billsburgh]

It's good that the Bills are winning and that the D is better.

But saying that it's all that matters is short-sighted. Just because the team is winning doesn't mean that all players are playing well. At some point we're going to have to play and beat better teams, and in order to do that we're going to have to improve even more. Some of these guys who are not making plays are going to need to step up.

Winning is great but it doesn't remove accountability. If the company you work for is making a ton of money, does that give you the right to show up an hour late and take a two hour lunch?
Who's to say that they wont continue to improve? Who's to say that other players wont step up and make more plays? You seem to be implying that this wont happen just as you were certain during the offseason that the offense couldnt improve over last year

[OpIv37]

Who's to say that they wont continue to improve? Who's to say that other players wont step up and make more plays? You seem to be implying that this wont happen just as you were certain during the offseason that the offense couldnt improve over last year

I'm not implying anything. You're reaching to make a point and making invalid assumptions.

I'm simply commenting on what's happened so far. That doesn't necessarily mean I think it's going to stay that way in the future.

[justasportsfan]

The guy's had 33 games. Exactly how many games does a player need before we can expect them to play at a high level? Seems to me like the guy's had plenty of experience at this point. .The majority think Whitner is playing at a high level. You're the only who thinks he isn't based on stats.


Lets start WIlson then?



Any team that has to wait 3 years to get production out of draft picks (with the exception of QB's) isn't going to go very far.


Any person who can't grasp the fact that it's hard for a rookie to come in to a rebuilding team and just play like a probowler in UNREALISTIC. Especially if he had no DL in front of him.

OP , you're being stubborn because WHitner is the ONLY THING left that you've *****ed about under MArv's watch that you have an argument about.

We all knew it would take 3 years and the results are starting to show. WE were REALISTIC and you weren't.

[madness]

You're reaching to make a point and making invalid assumptions.

Ask the blind man, he saw it.

[THATHURMANATOR]

I'm not implying anything. You're reaching to make a point and making invalid assumptions.

I'm simply commenting on what's happened so far. That doesn't necessarily mean I think it's going to stay that way in the future.
Sounds like you are the one making invalid assumptions

[justasportsfan]

I'm simply commenting on what's happened so far. That doesn't necessarily mean I think it's going to stay that way in the future.
say what?


Any team that has to wait 3 years to get production out of draft picks (with the exception of QB's) isn't going to go very far.

[OpIv37]

The majority think Whitner is playing at a high level. You're the only who thinks he isn't based on stats.


Lets start WIlson then?




Any person who can't grasp the fact that it's hard for a rookie to come in to a rebuilding team and just play like a probowler in UNREALISTIC. Especially if he had no DL in front of him.

OP , you're being stubborn because WHitner is the ONLY THING left that you've *****ed about under MArv's watch that you have an argument about.

We all knew it would take 3 years and the results are starting to show. WE were REALISTIC and you weren't.

NOT based on stats. Based on WATCHING HIM PLAY. He never makes big plays. He never makes big hits. All his tackles are downfield. He got burned several times last year, most notably in the Giants game. THIS is considered a "high level"? That's what annoys me about this

I never said Wilson was better- YOU said that. I simply said Whitner has been average, yet people like you insist that he plays at a "high level" when BOTH the game tape and the stat line show him being average at best. That's why I'm being stubborn. I hate it when fellow Bills fans accept mediocrity, and in this case it's gone beyond accepting it to outright defending it.

Who cares if it took 3 years? That means 2 lost years. You guys like to pretend that everything started over when Marv and co came in and nothing before that counts. But it counts. We as fans had to live through the last decade and while it may not be realistic to expect a new regime to come in and immediately produce, it doesn't make it any less frustrating as a fan.

[gr8slayer]

I wish you could understand that his lack of statistics has more to do with the scheme than anything. He's not in a position where he's ever going to have multiple INT's in a given game, etc..... Instead the guy has to drop back 10-20 yards every damn play to cover the deep out-side zone.

He does EXACTLY what is asked of him in the scheme we run, put him closer to the line, or let him play man coverage more and you'd see more statistics.

[OpIv37]

I wish you could understand that his lack of statistics has more to do with the scheme than anything. He's not in a position where he's ever going to have multiple INT's in a given game, etc..... Instead the guy has to drop back 10-20 yards every damn play to cover the deep out-side zone.

He does EXACTLY what is asked of him in the scheme we run, put him close to the line, or let him play man coverage more and you'd see more statistics.

it's not just statistics. You guys are hung up on that. It's lack of any type of big play whatsoever. I don't care what kind of big play it is. I don't expect him to do it every game. Just once in a while, I expect someone of his level to do something that makes me go "wow". Instead, he stands back and plays center field and occasionally makes a tackle.

And anyway, this board is defending the guy for making an undisciplined, illegal play. Statistics aside, what is it about this guy that everyone kisses his ass even when he does something stupid? Can someone please explain that to me?