Whitner taking a big shot at JP?

[Oaf]

"I'm very confident in Trent. In the past it was tough because you didn't know exactly what you were going to get from the offense. You didn't know if you were going to get points, so you almost had to play perfect on the defense side of the ball. And once you try to play perfect, you make mistakes.

"So with Trent out there I don't have any worries at all. I sit on the bench, drink a little water, a little Gatorade and I glance over at the scoreboard. We need him out there. I felt like if we had him for the entire game against Arizona we might be sitting here talking about a 6-0 football team instead of 5-1. I really believe that."

http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/story/11047927

Thoughts? To me that sounds like Whitner letting his emotions get a little bit better of him and saying something that shouldn't have been said. I mean, what's it really going to do for Edwards? And how does that affect JP? And how is JP to feel if TE goes down and his team doesn't have the same amount of faith in him or themselves when he has to step in? People say that the team looked worse overall when JP was in against AZ. Well first off, its hard to play when the other team scores every drive, but second off, what if the dip in team play is the their own fault and not JP's?
This is just what my in-depth team analysis is telling me. : )

(DISCLAIMER: Not trying to create JP vs. TE thread or rain on anyone's happy parade)

[Lexwhat]

Uh oh, don't tell Justa.

[trapezeus]

i saw this in another thread. and i pointed out that what whitner said was exactly what i said prior. that the bills defense feels pressure to be perfect when jp is in. Justa nearly ripped my head off asking why i know that and to stop pretending i have sources.

and i said, it's not that i have sources, one can just tell that's the case. nice to get a little back up.

I've maintained that the praise the bills give Trent is exactly what they found lacking in JP.

my question is this, if whitner's feelings represent the majority of the players, what good is JP on this team?

[Turbo.GUN.Hawk!]

It's a bad shot from Whitner but who cares? In order to be a leader and gain the respect of your teammates you have to play good football. JP didn't, Trent is doing it.

[Lexwhat]

i saw this in another thread. and i pointed out that what whitner said was exactly what i said prior. that the bills defense feels pressure to be perfect when jp is in. Justa nearly ripped my head off asking why i know that and to stop pretending i have sources.

and i said, it's not that i have sources, one can just tell that's the case. nice to get a little back up.

I've maintained that the praise the bills give Trent is exactly what they found lacking in JP.

my question is this, if whitner's feelings represent the majority of the players, what good is JP on this team?

I was right there with you making that same argument.

The only reason JP is here is because we have no better option. Starting QBs are rare, and capable back-ups are even rarer.

I wanted Culpepper in the off-season, but I changed my mind as I thought about it more. Daunte is a big mouth and wouldn't know his role, and we definitely don't need that from Trent's backup.

[mchurchfie]

Whitner is 100% correct.

[trapezeus]

but if JP's only credit is that he HAS started games, why not let hamdan play. if the players don't already see that hamdan has a body of work that is nothing but failure, perhaps the team doesn't overthink on every play? is JP really better than hamdan if he didn't have all the snaps? i don't think so. When you play JP against a decent team, you are essentially conceding defeat.

[jamze132]

Trent Edwards put on a clinic yesterday.

[TacklingDummy]

10-21 with Jp starting the past 4 years
14-9 with someone else starting

It's really not hard to see what the main problem has been the past 4 years.

[hydro]

10-21 with Jp starting the past 4 years
14-9 with someone else starting

It's really not hard to see what the main problem has been the past 4 years.
Shhh! The QBs aren't the ones that win the games ;)

Yet look what has happened to the Pats without Brady. Guess the QB is a integral part of the team :idunno:

[Forward_Lateral]

Guys, it's a moot point. Anyone who thinks JP is better than Trent at this point is a moron, and it's a useless argument. Let's move on already.

[colin]

it's not just that trent is better than jp, he is obviously 2x the player that jp could ever be in his 15th game or so.

the thing is jp is so absolutely terrible and is such a headless chicken who can't do his job that the entire team loses confidence in him.

he's a total joke and everyone outside of a few billsfans knows it.

[don137]

I am not blaming the Arizona loss on JP but JP showed he really is not that capable of a backup. Sure he will make the occasional great long ball throw but all the sacks, fumbles and bonehead plays he makes inbetween really kills a lot of drives.
I use to think if Trent went down with an injury JP would be able to fill in admirably. I do not feel that way any more and it is apparent some of the players feel that way as well.

[Nighthawk]

I am not blaming the Arizona loss on JP but JP showed he really is not that capable of a backup. Sure he will make the occasional great long ball throw but all the sacks, fumbles and bonehead plays he makes inbetween really kills a lot of drives.
I use to think if Trent went down with an injury JP would be able to fill in admirably. I do not feel that way any more and it is apparent some of the players feel that way as well.

I agree 100%. I just don't understand why we didn't upgrade the backup QB position because where we stand now, if Trent goes down, we may not be able to keep the train on the tracks. JP is just not capable of winning consistently in this league.

[Philagape]

Guys, it's a moot point. Anyone who thinks JP is better than Trent at this point is a moron, and it's a useless argument. Let's move on already.

Yeah, no sense giving the football equivalent of the Flat Earth Society one more moment of attention. This post is too much.

[HHURRICANE]

Capable backups are as hard to find as capable starters.

JP never had the team's confidence, even after the 2006 season so there is nothing shocking here.

[don137]

I agree 100%. I just don't understand why we didn't upgrade the backup QB position because where we stand now, if Trent goes down, we may not be able to keep the train on the tracks. JP is just not capable of winning consistently in this league.

I don't Bills management fully understood how incapable JP is as a QB because Edwards did not out play him by such a disparity last year. Edwards has not taken to the next level. He took it one level beyond that. He is worthy of making th pro bowl at the level he is playing at right now and not many people thought would be the case going into the season.

[trapezeus]

it is shocking that a player would say it outloud in the middle of the season though. Especially with JP's fragile state of mind. Seeing that the coaches want him in as backup, if he has to play again, chances are he'll play even worse, if you can imagine.

[HHURRICANE]

I don't Bills management fully understood how incapable JP is as a QB because Edwards did not out play him by such a disparity last year. Edwards has not taken to the next level. He took it one level beyond that. He is worthy of making th pro bowl at the level he is playing at right now and not many people thought would be the case going into the season.

I had a friend who worked with OBD last year and he told me that there were real concerns about JP leading this team. This was June '07 time frame when I posted it and I was very high on JP. I was shocked but obvioulsy they weren't.

The concerns were there.

[trapezeus]

I'm also interested to see Justa's take on all this. He is so anxious for other people to eat crow, i'm waiting to see his response on this one.

[don137]

it is shocking that a player would say it outloud in the middle of the season though. Especially with JP's fragile state of mind. Seeing that the coaches want him in as backup, if he has to play again, chances are he'll play even worse, if you can imagine.

I agree, while Whitner did not specifically call JP out by name everyone can read between the lines.
All I know we have two games against the dirty Patriots and Wilfork could go after Edwards knee just like he did JP last year. The Patriots are very dirty and now they realize the difference between winning the division and not being in the playoffs is Edwards so he will be a marked man when they play.

[henrybacker]

jp is a fine back up. That no doubt was a shot at the offense behind JP. Kind of unnecessary wording, but oh well.

[madness]

No shot, just confidence in Trent. The whole team loves this guy. I remember someone on defense (Stroud or Mitchell???) saying "this is Edwards team". That is huge.

[Nighthawk]

No shot, just confidence in Trent. The whole team loves this guy. I remember someone on defense (Stroud or Mitchell???) saying "this is Edwards team". That is huge.

I can's say how I know this, but trust me, this team has zero confidence in JP...that is a fact.

[mybills]

"I felt like if we had him for the entire game against Arizona we might be sitting here talking about a 6-0 football team instead of 5-1. I really believe that."

I don't. Nobody showed up for that game. That's why he got hurt. Plus, he has no control over the defense.

[justasportsfan]

i saw this in another thread. and i pointed out that what whitner said was exactly what i said prior. that the bills defense feels pressure to be perfect when jp is in. Justa nearly ripped my head off asking why i know that and to stop pretending i have sources.

and i said, it's not that i have sources, one can just tell that's the case. nice to get a little back up.

I've maintained that the praise the bills give Trent is exactly what they found lacking in JP.

my question is this, if whitner's feelings represent the majority of the players, what good is JP on this team?
Whitner is blowing smoke up our arses . At least thats what you tend to do when a quote goes your way.

Besides, Whitner would have had more confidence in Trent, he's the starter and has had more reps with the starting team. Even I would have more confidence in Trent .

[trapezeus]

I can's say how I know this, but trust me, this team has zero confidence in JP...that is a fact.

would you be able to share after the season?

[HHURRICANE]

I don't. Nobody showed up for that game. That's why he got hurt. Plus, he has no control over the defense.

There were several players on D that said the team is not the same without Edwards on the field. This was after the Cardinals game. If that's not a ringing "no confident" vote for JP than I don't know what is.

Yes, JP didn't lose the game, but it's apparant that no one feels like he can win one either.

[justasportsfan]

Uh oh, don't tell Justa.
Puhlease. When our no.1 wr Evans something different he's blowing smoke but when Whitner a defensive player who's unit got owned by Warner says something else, he's acurate?

[HHURRICANE]

I can's say how I know this, but trust me, this team has zero confidence in JP...that is a fact.

Well I 100% agree. This was a fact in spring of 2007.

[madness]

"I felt like if we had him for the entire game against Arizona we might be sitting here talking about a 6-0 football team instead of 5-1. I really believe that."

I don't. Nobody showed up for that game. That's why he got hurt. Plus, he has no control over the defense.

Obvious speculation, but it looked like the heart and life of this team got taken off the field with Trent.

[trapezeus]

Puhlease. When our no.1 wr Evans something different he's blowing smoke but when Whitner a defensive player who's unit got owned by Warner says something else, he's acurate?

somehow, i knew you'd find a way to be delusional about the whole thing instead of being humble and accepting that you were wrong.

[Nighthawk]

would you be able to share after the season?

Possibly.

[justasportsfan]

somehow, i knew you'd find a way to be delusional about the whole thing instead of being humble and accepting that you were wrong.


Unlike you I'm not densed enough to blame a game on a back up qb when the D and the entire team played like crap. I also admitted he had his mistakes but just because I am nt a hater then I am delusional. Whatever.

Besides, you did exactly the same thing by telling us whuch quotes are accurate and which ones are smoke screens depending on which wuote agree with your opinion.

[mybills]

There were several players on D that said the team is not the same without Edwards on the field. This was after the Cardinals game. If that's not a ringing "no confident" vote for JP than I don't know what is.

Yes, JP didn't lose the game, but it's apparant that no one feels like he can win one either.
There's no way they would have won that game. They don't play bad just because they don't have the QB they want. The OL played bad when they did have him in there, and that's why he got hurt! They can blame it on JP all they want..but it's their job to perform, it's what they get paid for.

[madness]

There's no way they would have won that game. They don't play bad just because they don't have the QB they want. The OL played bad when they did have him in there, and that's why he got hurt! They can blame it on JP all they want..but it's their job to perform, it's what they get paid for.

It doesn't matter if Joe "the plumber" was our backup. This team might possibly believe Trent can rescue this team from the pits of "hell". They also realistically expect a backup QB to play like a backup QB.

Vic Carucci said it best...


With Edwards missing for most of the game and J.P. Losman (http://www.nfl.com/players/j.p.losman/profile?id=LOS588329) making repeated mistakes in his place, the Bills were overwhelmed by the Cardinals, 41-17. Losman wasn't the sole reason for the debacle, but the outcome did provide a vivid picture of just how bad things could be for the Bills without the man who had helped guide them to a surprising 4-0 start.

http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?t=163485

[Ingtar33]

I had a friend who worked with OBD last year and he told me that there were real concerns about JP leading this team. This was June '07 time frame when I posted it and I was very high on JP. I was shocked but obvioulsy they weren't.

The concerns were there.


i believe this 100%

you know why?

because they drafted Trent Edwards that off season.

I remember my comment about Edwards after the bills drafted him... "obviously the Bills don't have a lot of confidence that Losman is the long term answer"

[acehole]

I sounds like it.
The debate is over for me.
Trent is the QB for the Buffalo
bills. I still think JP has some skills
and might do better with a different
situation.I still think he was handled wrong
here and Trent correctly. I do think that loss
in Arizona was a team effort...however some guys
have that ability to bring the level of everyones play
around them to a higher level. Trend might have that
and JP may not. Chemestry is very important and can
go beyond skill or any other factor and this team with
Trent has just that. This team is a better team this year
then lasts or the year before....and Trent makes them even
a step better as does stroud and Mitchel and Turk and POZ.



=Oaf] "I'm very confident in Trent. In the past it was tough because you didn't know exactly what you were going to get from the offense. You didn't know if you were going to get points, so you almost had to play perfect on the defense side of the ball. And once you try to play perfect, you make mistakes.

"So with Trent out there I don't have any worries at all. I sit on the bench, drink a little water, a little Gatorade and I glance over at the scoreboard. We need him out there. I felt like if we had him for the entire game against Arizona we might be sitting here talking about a 6-0 football team instead of 5-1. I really believe that."

http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/story/11047927

Thoughts? To me that sounds like Whitner letting his emotions get a little bit better of him and saying something that shouldn't have been said. I mean, what's it really going to do for Edwards? And how does that affect JP? And how is JP to feel if TE goes down and his team doesn't have the same amount of faith in him or themselves when he has to step in? People say that the team looked worse overall when JP was in against AZ. Well first off, its hard to play when the other team scores every drive, but second off, what if the dip in team play is the their own fault and not JP's?
This is just what my in-depth team analysis is telling me. : )

(DISCLAIMER: Not trying to create JP vs. TE thread or rain on anyone's happy parade)
[/quote]

[Saratoga Slim]

No shot, just confidence in Trent. The whole team loves this guy. I remember someone on defense (Stroud or Mitchell???) saying "this is Edwards team". That is huge.

That's how I took Whitner's comments. To say "Whitner took a big shot at JP" insinuates that the purpose of Whitner's comments was to DENIGRATE Losman. To the contrary, the purpose of his comments was to PRAISE Trent.

Intending to praise and intending to denigrate are not the same thing. I don't think Whitner displayed any lack of leadership by speaking about Trent's importance to our offense.

[justasportsfan]

i believe this 100%

you know why?

because they drafted Trent Edwards that off season.

I remember my comment about Edwards after the bills drafted him... "obviously the Bills don't have a lot of confidence that Losman is the long term answer"I'll trump HH so called sources with the Man Marv himself said that they weren't looking to draft a qb in the early rounds. Trent just happened to be there and they had him graded as a first rounder.

I'm sure however that Trap will tell us that inspite of MArvs quote, he's blowing smoke up our arse.

[justasportsfan]

That's how I took Whitner's comments. To say "Whitner took a big shot at JP" insinuates that the purpose of Whitner's comments was to DENIGRATE Losman. To the contrary, the purpose of his comments was to PRAISE Trent.

Intending to praise and intending to denigrate are not the same thing. I don't think Whitner displayed any lack of leadership by speaking about Trent's importance to our offense.
best post.

[HHURRICANE]

There's no way they would have won that game. They don't play bad just because they don't have the QB they want. The OL played bad when they did have him in there, and that's why he got hurt! They can blame it on JP all they want..but it's their job to perform, it's what they get paid for.

First off, the play was designed to leave the rusher unblocked. Listen to the Trent interview regarding the play. It was not a missed assignment.

Second, Edwards had just completed the first down and there was no reason to believe that he wouldn't have run the offense in his usual time clock milking way.

Third, the D knows that if JP's in there than they are staying on the field. JP's bomb did nothing but march the D back out onto the field. This is why he's not an NFL QB, because when you need clock management, he can't provide it.

[trapezeus]

I'll trump HH so called sources with the Man Marv himself said that they weren't looking to draft a qb in the early rounds. Trent just happened to be there and they had him graded as a first rounder.

I'm sure however that Trap will tell us that inspite of MArvs quote, he's blowing smoke up our arse.

Politics play out in every single thing you do. football front office operations is no difference. i can not believe that you walk around in your daily life taking the face value of everything said to you. yet in this case you seem to listen to all the stuff that obviously is fluff material. And then you disregard statements that are not PC and seem to be more straight forward.

Marv's comments are about as PC as they come. Whether he believed that or not, they took a QB in day one. I doubt you see the bills take a first round QB talent if available on opening day as long as trent is their starter. So what does that tell you about confidence in JP?

Whitner obviously spoke after big win and was less guarded with his comments. Just admit you were wrong on the issue of JP. It's not hate that makes me anti JP. It's that he's a bad football player that makes me anti-Jp.

i can't believe you still want to defend him.

on another note, i agree with the poster that whitner saying this doesn't really accomplish much.

[justasportsfan]

Politics play out in every single thing you do. football front office operations is no difference. i can not believe that you walk around in your daily life taking the face value of everything said to you. yet in this case you seem to listen to all the stuff that obviously is fluff material. And then you disregard statements that are not PC and seem to be more straight forward.

Marv's comments are about as PC as they come. Whether he believed that or not, they took a QB in day one. I doubt you see the bills take a first round QB talent if available on opening day as long as trent is their starter. So what does that tell you about confidence in JP?

Whitner obviously spoke after big win and was less guarded with his comments. Just admit you were wrong on the issue of JP. It's not hate that makes me anti JP. It's that he's a bad football player that makes me anti-Jp.

i can't believe you still want to defend him.

on another note, i agree with the poster that whitner saying this doesn't really accomplish much.


see what I mean? You just proved my point. Only a few here like yourself are the ones who pretend to know what people actually mean when they say what they say. Whatever.

From now on we should check with you whenever someone makes a quote good or bad? :rolleyes:

I'm defending him as a back up. Get a clue.

[HHURRICANE]

The only problem with having Justa on ignore is I occassionally get his e-mail responses.

For the record, you can go back into spring/summer of 2007 and see where I posetd the thread regarding this. It was when I was a big JP fan and Mikey can verify because I remember him posting in the thread.

I even wrote that I was bummed out and a little surprised. To be frank, at the I though Trent was just going to be a Schaub type pick where we might develop him and get some picks for his value later.

Obvioulsy the Bills knew more than me.

[djjimkelly]

"I'm very confident in Trent. In the past it was tough because you didn't know exactly what you were going to get from the offense. You didn't know if you were going to get points, so you almost had to play perfect on the defense side of the ball. And once you try to play perfect, you make mistakes.

"So with Trent out there I don't have any worries at all. I sit on the bench, drink a little water, a little Gatorade and I glance over at the scoreboard. We need him out there. I felt like if we had him for the entire game against Arizona we might be sitting here talking about a 6-0 football team instead of 5-1. I really believe that."

http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/story/11047927

Thoughts? To me that sounds like Whitner letting his emotions get a little bit better of him and saying something that shouldn't have been said. I mean, what's it really going to do for Edwards? And how does that affect JP? And how is JP to feel if TE goes down and his team doesn't have the same amount of faith in him or themselves when he has to step in? People say that the team looked worse overall when JP was in against AZ. Well first off, its hard to play when the other team scores every drive, but second off, what if the dip in team play is the their own fault and not JP's?
This is just what my in-depth team analysis is telling me. : )

(DISCLAIMER: Not trying to create JP vs. TE thread or rain on anyone's happy parade)



i think whitner should just be worried about his own play for now.

this is the first year the bills arent a bottom 5 D since whitner is a bill

[trapezeus]

see what I mean? You just proved my point. Only a few here like yourself are the ones who pretend to know what people actually mean when they say what they say. Whatever.

From now on we should check with you whenever someone makes a quote good or bad? :rolleyes:

I'm defending him as a back up. Get a clue.

you don't have to check in with me. You just need to think critically about what is being said and what the context of the situation is. It'll help immensely in your life. Thank me later.

[justasportsfan]

you don't have to check in with me. You just need to think critically about what is being said and what the context of the situation is. It'll help immensely in your life. Thank me later.


I insist on checking with you since you're a mind reader. ;)

Everytime someone is quoted you should post a comment "what ______ really means is...."

[mybills]

It doesn't matter if Joe "the plumber" was our backup. This team might possibly believe Trent can rescue this team from the pits of "hell". They also realistically expect a backup QB to play like a backup QB.


I'm not saying this isn't the case. I'm saying they were not prepared for that game and it didn't matter who we had at the helm, no way were they gonna win. Even the coaches were calling the wrong plays...example..cb's playing more than 10 yds off the wr's the whole time. It just wasn't in the cards for them. Pardon the pun. :;

[TacklingDummy]

The only problem with having Justa on ignore is I occassionally get his e-mail responses.



Why would you put justa or even suggest putting anyone on ignore?

The ignore button is for pussies.

[justasportsfan]

Why would you put justa or even suggest putting anyone on ignore?

The ignore button is for pussies.
The MOds took away my ability to read both Morans and HH posts. They don't like it when I laugh at BZ's biggest flipfloppers.

[camelcowboy]

i think whitner should just be worried about his own play for now.

this is the first year the bills arent a bottom 5 D since whitner is a bill
Lol Whitner touch a nerve? You can waive that white flag any time

[TacklingDummy]

The MOds took away my ability to read both Morans and HH posts. They don't like it when I laugh at BZ's biggest flipfloppers.

It's just opinions. If people don't like other peoples opinions than they shouldnt visit message boards.

I wonder how WYS is taking this season.

[Lexwhat]

Puhlease. When our no.1 wr Evans something different he's blowing smoke but when Whitner a defensive player who's unit got owned by Warner says something else, he's acurate?
See, that's your problem.

Tell me something: When did I EVER say that Whitner's quote was definitely valid? You're wrong to assume that I do. Go back and look at my posts.

To me, the Bills players and Front Office staff give political statements 99% of the time. That's exactly why I use my own logic to assess a situation, and don't rely on a biased person's opinion to form my own. My opinion about JP hasen't changed, regardless of what Whitner says.

I'm merely using your own logic against you. You're the one who's always preaching "I'll take ____________ opinion over yours any day."

[justasportsfan]

See, that's your problem.

Tell me something: When did I EVER say that Whitner's quote was definitely valid? You're wrong to assume that I do. Go back and look at my posts..sorry. I meant to quote Trap the mind reader.


To me, the Bills players and Front Office staff give political statements 99% of the time. That's exactly why I use my own logic to assess a situation, and don't rely on a biased person's opinion to form my own. My opinion about JP hasen't changed, regardless of what Whitner says.."but whose the authority on determining on whether a quote is political or truth? You? Trap? Op?



I'm merely using your own logic against you. You're the one who's always preaching "I'll take ____________ opinion over yours any day."

and I actually agree agree with Whitners quote . I have more confidence in Trent than JP . Doesn't mean I think Jp is a as bad as you guys make him out to be to the extent that you guys are pretty much even blaming him even for the Jenkins penalty.

What I don't agree with Whitner is that Trent could've come in and saved the D from getting owned by the cards. If the D did their part and yes, Trent would've done better but enough to make up for the D stininking it up? Whitner and the D stunk vs. the cards.

Trent isn't a very good db . Someone forgot to tell Whitner that.

[trapezeus]

I insist on checking with you since you're a mind reader. ;)

Everytime someone is quoted you should post a comment "what ______ really means is...."

if this will help, i'm all for it. :-)

also, no one is blaming JP on Jenkins play. you can't be like Mccain on this and just keep repeating something because you want it to be true. What you are saying is wrong. I never blamed JP for Jenkins offside call. And i'm not suggesting that you want JP as a starter. i know we're arguing over whether he's a competent backup. I don't think he is.

[justasportsfan]

if this will help, i'm all for it. :-)

also, no one is blaming JP on Jenkins play. you can't be like Mccain on this and just keep repeating something because you want it to be true. What you are saying is wrong. I never blamed JP for Jenkins offside call. And i'm not suggesting that you want JP as a starter. i know we're arguing over whether he's a competent backup. I don't think he is.
I was being sarcastic on the Jenkins comments but it's pretty clear you blame the loss of the game vs. the cards on JP even though the D did more damage , even though the St did their fair share of losing that game.

[Lexwhat]

but whose the authority on determining on whether a quote is political or truth? You? Trap? Op?

That's my point: no one here has the authority to determine that. A quote may be 0% true, 10% true, 50% true, 95% true, or 100% true. Anything less than 100% truth, and the person is throwing some politics in there.

When it comes to ANY Bills player or FO member analyzing a player or situation, I don't take their word as absolute, whether it agrees with my opinion or not. I don't just quote someone and say "their opinion trumps yours."

I look at the big picture and form my opinion that way. Is my opinion always right? Of course not. You are totally free to disagree and bring up counter-points. But just quoting someone else and using that as the basis of your argument doesn't make much sense.



and I actually agree agree with Whitners quote . I have more confidence in Trent than JP . Doesn't mean I think Jp is a as bad as you guys make him out to be to the extent that you guys are pretty much even blaming him even for the Jenkins penalty.

What I don't agree with Whitner is that Trent could've come in and saved the D from getting owned by the cards. If the D did their part and yes, Trent would've done better but enough to make up for the D stininking it up? Whitner and the D stunk vs. the cards.

Trent isn't a very good db . Someone forgot to tell Whitner that.

So you both agree and disagree with him. That's fine. That's the same way I am with any Bills player or FO member.

:rockon:

[JPFBillsFan]

JP's bomb was a problem?

Sure then all those bombs by Brady last year were horrible for the Defense...

Lame arguement....makes no sense

[Philagape]

It's clear logic.

A player or coach praising or defending a teammate is expected because of personal loyalty, bias, PR training and the sake of peace with someone you work with every day. Those factors make it hard to know whether they really mean it.

A player taking a veiled shot at a teammate is unexpected, defiant of conventional interview-speak, and with no other logical ulterior motives, unless it's something personal. Therefore it's more likely to be what he really thinks.

Just ask, why would a player say such-and-such? There are several reasons to say good things but really only one to say something like this.

[justasportsfan]

That's my point: no one here has the authority to determine that. A quote may be 0% true, 10% true, 50% true, 95% true, or 100% true. Anything less than 100% truth, and the person is throwing some politics in there.

When it comes to ANY Bills player or FO member analyzing a player or situation, I don't take their word as absolute, whether it agrees with my opinion or not. I don't just quote someone and say "their opinion trumps yours."

I look at the big picture and form my opinion that way. Is my opinion always right? Of course not. You are totally free to disagree and bring up counter-points. But just quoting someone else and using that as the basis of your argument doesn't make much sense.




So you both agree and disagree with him. That's fine. That's the same way I am with any Bills player or FO member.

:rockon:

Difference is, some people are short of calling Marv a liar for saying WHAT HAPPENED during the draft.


What Whitner is saying is opinion of what coulda, woulda, shoulda happened.

One (marv) claims factual experience and the other (whitner) is opinion. I don't agree with Whitners opinion but I am not calling MArv a liar.

[Lexwhat]

Difference is, some people are short of calling Marv a liar for saying WHAT HAPPENED during the draft.

What Whitner is saying is opinion of what coulda, woulda, shoulda happened.

One (marv) claims factual experience and the other (whitner) is opinion. I don't agree with Whitners opinion but I am not calling MArv a liar.

I never brought up Marv specifically, or the draft situation.

You're the one who talked about Mark Kelso and his assessment of Losman, and how he said "I think JP can still be a good QB in this league." Then you proceeded to say "I would take Kelso's opinion over yours."

Don't try to get around this.

[trapezeus]

no one is calling marv a liar. he's a classy guy and isn't going to sell anyone down the river. He put a nice coating on the situation.

[Lexwhat]

One (marv) claims factual experience and the other (whitner) is opinion. I don't agree with Whitners opinion but I am not calling MArv a liar.

This proves that you are in love with OPINIONS:




Here's what Kelso said about JP a few weeks ago. He has more inside info than any of us do.
Quote:
<table width="100%" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border: 1px inset ;"> I continue to say and have said many times this year that I think JP has all the tools to be a great quarterback in this league and it was unfortunate that he had to deal with several offensive coordinators and new systems in his career. I have also said many times that he is always a positive influence in the locker room and is known for a strong work ethic and being a student of the game.

Mark Kelso
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
My sources from coaches players and even Kelso are better than yours



Kelso disagrees with you. I think I'd rather side with him than you.



to each his own. Our coaches and FO don't agree with you.



the coaches disagree with you and I'm sure they know better than you.



FIARHCILD. Ask the players and the coaches. They know better than you.



How about the players? Are they not privy to what goes on with the team. How about Van Pelt? Their opinions of JP are more accurate than anyone here.



He hangs around the team. You don't. Whatever he says is more accurate than anyone here including you and myself.

[Lexwhat]

What I don't agree with Whitner is that Trent could've come in and saved the D from getting owned by the cards. If the D did their part and yes, Trent would've done better but enough to make up for the D stininking it up? Whitner and the D stunk vs. the cards.

Trent isn't a very good db . Someone forgot to tell Whitner that.
Read my post above. I'm only turning your own logic against you.

In this case, right now, you wanna be free to disagree with Whitner. But on the other hand, when it fits your argument, you place so much value into the opinions of Bills players and FO members. You are taking their words as absolute.

[justasportsfan]

no one is calling marv a liar. he's a classy guy and isn't going to sell anyone down the river. He put a nice coating on the situation.
what? he coated the situation by saying what exactly happened in that draft room?

Let me give you a clue. You weren't there.

[justasportsfan]

I never brought up Marv specifically, or the draft situation.

You're the one who talked about Mark Kelso and his assessment of Losman, and how he said "I think JP can still be a good QB in this league." Then you proceeded to say "I would take Kelso's opinion over yours."

Don't try to get around this.
well trap is involved in this he said she said argument therefore MArv's quote is part of it.

[justasportsfan]

Read my post above. I'm only turning your own logic against you.

In this case, right now, you wanna be free to disagree with Whitner. But on the other hand, when it fits your argument, you place so much value into the opinions of Bills players and FO members. You are taking their words as absolute.

Lets talk then about whats been done. JP is the back up of this team. BY doing so, our coaches disagree with you and trap. What now? That isn't just opinion on their part but they actually have done something about it by making him no.2

[trapezeus]

and its our opinion that he's a pretty bad number 2. actually that's my opinion. i don't know where lex stands on that.

its just hilarious that you want to take everything literally because you're defense of JP has gotten dismissed. you were wrong. he isn't a good starter, which you claimed last year that he was, and this year, your claim was that he was a good back up. He threw for 58 yards when the game matter.

The team lost by 24 points. THe defense didn't play much better stat wise against the chargers. the turnovers were the keys to keeping the score down. but the bills offense played with the ability to score more points. Even if the chargers scored to make it 21-20, everyone knows that the bills have a chance with trent in, no chance if JP had to do it. I don't know that hamdan couldn't do it.

[justasportsfan]

and its our opinion that he's a pretty bad number 2. actually that's my opinion. i don't know where lex stands on that.

its just hilarious that you want to take everything literally because you're defense of JP has gotten dismissed. you were wrong. he isn't a good starter, which you claimed last year that he was, and this year, your claim was that he was a good back up. He threw for 58 yards when the game matter.

you're right. It's your opinion that the coaches and players don't share.

[QUOTE=trapezeus]
The team lost by 24 points. .in your world that was all JP's fault.





THe defense didn't play much better stat wise against the chargers. the turnovers were the keys to keeping the score down. but the bills offense played with the ability to score more points. Even if the chargers scored to make it 21-20, everyone knows that the bills have a chance with trent in, no chance if JP had to do it. I don't know that hamdan couldn't do it.Oh so now stat matters? When I pointed out JP's qb rating you dissmiised it now it matters.


YOu're obviously blind if you think the D didn't play that musch better compared to the Cards :roflmao:

[Typ0]

actions speak to what people feel and mean more than words do in just about every case. The FACT that the team drafted TE is evidence they don't have confidence in JP. The fact that they don't have confidence in JP if evidence that he is incompetent. This quote by whitner is just further evidence...and you could consider the team tanking in ARZ as evidence of their lack of confidence in him as well...but I would want to see more observations on that matter. Any way you look at it, if you are still making excuses for JP you're ignorant of the reality that he just isn't cutting it.

[justasportsfan]

actions speak to what people feel and mean more than words do in just about every case. The FACT that the team drafted TE is evidence they don't have confidence in JP. The fact that they don't have confidence in JP if evidence that he is incompetent. This quote by whitner is just further evidence...and you could consider the team tanking in ARZ as evidence of their lack of confidence in him as well...but I would want to see more observations on that matter. Any way you look at it, if you are still making excuses for JP you're ignorant of the reality that he just isn't cutting it.I agree. The FACT that their action is making JP the back up means they have faith in him in that position. Next!

WEll, Dick, Evans and Turk must be ignorant after making excuses for JP coming in as the back up. NEXT!

[Oaf]

That's how I took Whitner's comments. To say "Whitner took a big shot at JP" insinuates that the purpose of Whitner's comments was to DENIGRATE Losman. To the contrary, the purpose of his comments was to PRAISE Trent.

Intending to praise and intending to denigrate are not the same thing. I don't think Whitner displayed any lack of leadership by speaking about Trent's importance to our offense.
I agree that Whitner wasn't directing these comments at JP. What I said was, why say this when the benefit for TE is very low (everyone on and off the team is praising him now, plus he's not an ego-motivated guy anyways) and cost for JP could be high? How is JP to feel if he has to come in as the backup and the team would just as rather have Hamdan or Schonert play QB?

That's why I said it was a poor statement in which he let his emotions get the better of him.

Again, this thread is about Whitner & team and JP, not JP vs TE.

[Billsfan3]

we all know whiter isnt afraid to say what he has to say to the media. First with guranteeing playoffs now the JP talk.