Cap Question about Dockery

[patmoran2006]

For a any salary cap pro’s lurking around. How much of Derrick Dockery’s salary was paid upfront with the signing bonus? Hopefully we paid a crapload of it upfront.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
If this guy keeps playing like this, I say we cut him this offseason and cut our losses. He’s absolutely murdering us.. Im not sure what his ’08 salary is slotted to be.. but if its more than the league minimum he’s not worth it. He’s not any better than <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:City w:st="on">Butler</st1:City>, and that’s NOT a compliment to <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Butler</st1:City></st1:place> either.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Basically what Im asking is. How much would we save by cutting him? And/or how much would it cost us to just flat out release him this winter?<o:p></o:p>

[TacklingDummy]

3/2/2007: Signed a seven-year, $49 million contract. The deal included a $16 million signing bonus and contains $18.5 million in total guarantees. $8.1 million of the signing bonus was paid immediately. 2008: $1.5 million, 2009: $2.75 million, 2010: $4.5 million, 2011: $5.65 million, 2012: $6.575 million, 2013: $6.775 million, 2014: Free Agent

[hydro]

3/2/2007: Signed a seven-year, $49 million contract. The deal included a $16 million signing bonus and contains $18.5 million in total guarantees. $8.1 million of the signing bonus was paid immediately. 2008: $1.5 million, 2009: $2.75 million, 2010: $4.5 million, 2011: $5.65 million, 2012: $6.575 million, 2013: $6.775 million, 2014: Free Agent

:ill:

[patmoran2006]

I want to know how much of his signing bonus is paid through this year, because if we cut him that bonus unpaid would be spread out throughout the remainder of his contract.

HOpefully someone knows here how much it would cost/save if we were to get rid of him at season's end. He's just THAT bad IMO.

[bigbub2352]

Not a bad idea, he is very weak in the run game, i say we cut our loses with him and folwer/preston and start over get a real Oline coach in here and draft some players come into camp with like 20 offensive lineman and get a real road grader in here all we do is pass 2 yds so he doesnt have to excel in pass protection

[THATHURMANATOR]

Oh god come guys. Cut him.... Seriously? Why not get a competant center first then see what happens.

[DraftBoy]

Pat first it was to bench Peters, now its to cut Dockery? Are you trying to go from one extreme to the next? Who in god's name are you going to replace him with?

[Saratoga Slim]

I don't think cutting him's a good option. It might be a different story if we didn't have the cap space we need to find an upgrade at C or G, but we do.

I feel like our OL has as much or more talent than most lines in the league. Something else is missing. It's gotta be either intensity or the coaching/blocking scheme. Even bad lineman can create some holes if the blocking scheme is designed well. Ours create almost none.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Pat first it was to bench Peters, now its to cut Dockery? Are you trying to go from one extreme to the next? Who in god's name are you going to replace him with?
Yeah Whittle?

The Problems with the line eminate from the Center. Neither can make good line calls nor hold their ground (let alone get a push). Couple that with Whittle/Chambers being thrown around like rag dolls the last two weeks and look where it has gotten us.

Here is an outside the box move I have been thinking about.

Keep Preston at center for now.

Move Walker to Right guard. He can generate some push(at least more than what has been before) Move Chambers/Butler to right tackle. Chambers proved competant earlier in the year and tackle is Butler's true position.

[patmoran2006]

Pat first it was to bench Peters, now its to cut Dockery? Are you trying to go from one extreme to the next? Who in god's name are you going to replace him with?
how much worse can we do in the offseason than what we have now? The only significant thing about our current crop of underacheiving OL is their price tag.

[Lexwhat]

Pat Moran, I 100% agree with you about cutting Dockery. However, now is not the time to cut him, IMO.

The end of next season (when we have hopefully drafted some interior linemen) would be a good time to cut him. The guy wipes his floors with $100 dollar bills, and doesn't seem to give a damn on the field.

This team really needs to draft LINEMEN!! LOTS OF THEM!

[SquishDaFish]

Pat Moran, I 100% agree with you about cutting Dockery. However, now is not the time to cut him, IMO.

The end of next season (when we have hopefully drafted some interior linemen) would be a good time to cut him. The guy wipes his floors with $100 dollar bills, and doesn't seem to give a damn on the field.

This team really needs to draft LINEMEN!! LOTS OF THEM!

He did say in the offseason

[patmoran2006]

Take his money saved this winter (IF there is money to save, I did start this thread as a question)-- and find someone better.

[Saratoga Slim]

Dockery has all the size and athleticism we could ask for. So does Peters. So does Walker. Arguably so does Butler.

Cutting them is not the answer. Someone needs to light a fire under their ass. I've been a big Jauron supporter all along, but I'm starting to think the calm, cool, demeanor that makes all the players love to play for him might also have something to do with the flat personality that this team is showing.

[mchurchfie]

We need to bring Carl Mauk back here for some pregame pepscreams.

[X-Era]

Not a bad idea, he is very weak in the run game, i say we cut our loses with him and folwer/preston and start over get a real Oline coach in here and draft some players come into camp with like 20 offensive lineman and get a real road grader in here all we do is pass 2 yds so he doesnt have to excel in pass protection

Draft some players?

OK, so our 1st 2 picks should be OL? And you think they are going to be better than Dockery and Fowler/Preston? In their first year? :rolleyes:

No, we need to simply play a bit better across the board. We have won with this o-line, and the pieces we have have the talent. I think the schemes may be to blame, and you might be right about the OL coach, but dont throw the babay out with the bath water.

[Philagape]

Not that I want to cut Dockery, but wasn't one of the advantages of cash-to-cap that it means no dead cap if players are cut?

[X-Era]

Pat Moran, I 100% agree with you about cutting Dockery. However, now is not the time to cut him, IMO.

The end of next season (when we have hopefully drafted some interior linemen) would be a good time to cut him. The guy wipes his floors with $100 dollar bills, and doesn't seem to give a damn on the field.

This team really needs to draft LINEMEN!! LOTS OF THEM!
See my previous post.

I assume that the other 32 teams are going to NOT draft O-linemen so that we get all of the top guys, and can completely rebuild our line in one year and that all of those drafted o-linemen will be better than proven vets in year one... Yes, I really assume that.

Guys, why cant we just call it a few bad games again?

[X-Era]

Not that I want to cut Dockery, but wasn't one of the advantages of cash-to-cap that it means no dead cap if players are cut?

I dont see a link there.

They still sign the same type of contracts with cap hits if their cut, its just that we wont spend up to the cap if we don't have the cash from revenue.

Cash to cap = small market teams making their own lower cap

[yordad]

I want to know how much of his signing bonus is paid through this year, because if we cut him that bonus unpaid would be spread out throughout the remainder of his contract.

HOpefully someone knows here how much it would cost/save if we were to get rid of him at season's end. He's just THAT bad IMO.Actually, if you cut a guy his entire bonus is due in one year. We would be creating a hole and saving less then 3 mil.

Not that I want to cut Dockery, but wasn't one of the advantages of cash-to-cap that it means no dead cap if players are cut?Yeah, except Ralph and co don't fully employ it. If they did they would end up spending all the cap space and Ralph's pillows would get lighter. Can't have that.

[X-Era]

For a any salary cap pro’s lurking around. How much of Derrick Dockery’s salary was paid upfront with the signing bonus? Hopefully we paid a crapload of it upfront.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
If this guy keeps playing like this, I say we cut him this offseason and cut our losses. He’s absolutely murdering us.. Im not sure what his ’08 salary is slotted to be.. but if its more than the league minimum he’s not worth it. He’s not any better than <st1:city w:st="on">Butler</st1:city>, and that’s NOT a compliment to <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:city w:st="on">Butler</st1:city></st1:place> either.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Basically what Im asking is. How much would we save by cutting him? And/or how much would it cost us to just flat out release him this winter?<o:p></o:p>

Seriously, someone should do the hardwork and watch the game again. Write down how many times Trent had less than 3 seconds to throw the ball. 3 seconds, thats what you can expect to get before the pass rush is in your face.

Id bet its less than 5 times that he had less than 3 seconds.

I cant confirm this, but a friend of mine told me that ESPN brokedown Lynch's running style and said that he wasnt following the blocks on the designed plays. Apparently, they showed that the holes were there at times but he changed his path.

[EDS]

Yeah Whittle?

The Problems with the line eminate from the Center. Neither can make good line calls nor hold their ground (let alone get a push). Couple that with Whittle/Chambers being thrown around like rag dolls the last two weeks and look where it has gotten us.

Here is an outside the box move I have been thinking about.

Keep Preston at center for now.

Move Walker to Right guard. He can generate some push(at least more than what has been before) Move Chambers/Butler to right tackle. Chambers proved competant earlier in the year and tackle is Butler's true position.

I think moving Walker to right guard makes a lot of sense with Butler sliding over to tackle.

Having two bad run blockers together in the middle of the line is doomsday for the run game and there is at least an outside chance that Walker's heft between Butler and Preston/Fowler can open up a modicum of real estate for the RBs.

[Yasgur's Farm]

For a any salary cap pro’s lurking around. How much of Derrick Dockery’s salary was paid upfront with the signing bonus? Hopefully we paid a crapload of it upfront.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
If this guy keeps playing like this, I say we cut him this offseason and cut our losses. He’s absolutely murdering us.. Im not sure what his ’08 salary is slotted to be.. but if its more than the league minimum he’s not worth it. He’s not any better than <st1:city w:st="on">Butler</st1:city>, and that’s NOT a compliment to <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:city w:st="on">Butler</st1:city></st1:place> either.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Basically what Im asking is. How much would we save by cutting him? And/or how much would it cost us to just flat out release him this winter?<o:p></o:p> If I understand Clump's page correctly, Dockery has a $1.35M amortized tag per year. Given he has 5 years remaining ('09-'13), and an '09 salary of $2.75M... it looks like it would be a $4M (= [5 years x $1.35M] - $2.75M) cap hit to release him before March '09.

Do I win the $1,000 ZB trivia money?

[Lexwhat]

He did say in the offseason

My fault.

But either way, I believe Pat and I still disagree. Dockery should be here for at least the 2009 season as well (next year).

If we can draft some good interior linemen, I would like to see them starting in 2010.

[Lexwhat]

See my previous post.

I assume that the other 32 teams are going to NOT draft O-linemen so that we get all of the top guys, and can completely rebuild our line in one year and that all of those drafted o-linemen will be better than proven vets in year one... Yes, I really assume that.

Guys, why cant we just call it a few bad games again?

1. This team is stupid. For YEARS, I (and many others) have been constantly hoping this team would draft some interior O-Linemen in the EARLY rounds, but they have not.

2. I said cut Dockery after the 2009 season, not after this year.

3. I don't see what's so difficult about finding a guard and a center in this year's draft, and having them start in their 2nd season. Even ROOKIE O-Linemen can start in this league and play well. Why can't the Bills find any?

-- Ever heard of Logan Mankins and Samson Satele?
-- How about Tony Ugoh starting as a rookie LT for the Colts? Marcus McNeill of the Chargers?
-- Among others, four tackles from this draft (Ryan Clady, Brandon Albert, Jeff Otah, and Sam Baker) are rookie starters for their teams (Broncos, Chiefs, Panthers, and Falcons).

4. I have been one of the biggest critics of the McKelvin draft pick. I don't think he is a bust, but we could have drafted someone else. It's the Bills own fault that they don't draft well, and now they are paying the price by not being able to run the ball.

[X-Era]

1. This team is stupid. For YEARS, I (and many others) have been constantly hoping this team would draft some interior O-Linemen in the EARLY rounds, but they have not.

2. I said cut Dockery after the 2009 season, not after this year.

3. I don't see what's so difficult about finding a guard and a center in this year's draft, and having them start in their 2nd season. Even ROOKIE O-Linemen can start in this league and play well. Why can't the Bills find any?

-- Ever heard of Logan Mankins and Samson Satele?
-- How about Tony Ugoh starting as a rookie LT for the Colts? Marcus McNeill of the Chargers?
-- Among others, four tackles from this draft (Ryan Clady, Brandon Albert, Jeff Otah, and Sam Baker) are rookie starters for their teams (Broncos, Chiefs, Panthers, and Falcons).

4. I have been one of the biggest critics of the McKelvin draft pick. I don't think he is a bust, but we could have drafted someone else. It's the Bills own fault that they don't draft well, and now they are paying the price by not being able to run the ball.

You list well established perrennial play off teams as examples. Hows it going for Robert Gallery? Leonard Davis for the Cards?

Any rookie can look good when you have hall of fame QB's like Brady and Manning.

The other thing is you only list T's and mostly LT's. Peters is a pro-bowler IMO. Yes, even this year. Your talking about G's and C's here.

BTW, we drafted Mike Williams as you know. And you also know the result.

[Yasgur's Farm]

Problem is... We draft very few O-liemen before round 7. It's almost like we expect them to fall into our laps as undrafted FA's. While there are a few feel good stories via that route... It's not enough to sustain a successful O-line.

Meanwhile... We ruin the careers of people like EMo, Evans Lynch Losman. Who's next... Trent Edwards!?

[Yasgur's Farm]

How the hell can we explain that a guy like Lynch... A guy that hits the hole hard as any back I've seen since Bettis... A guy who never stops ("I run 'til I can't run no more.")... Is averaging an embarrassing 3.5 yards per carry.

Has Buffalo ever seen a more determined runner? He deserves more Ralph!!

[bigbub2352]

Draft some players?

OK, so our 1st 2 picks should be OL? And you think they are going to be better than Dockery and Fowler/Preston? In their first year? :rolleyes:

No, we need to simply play a bit better across the board. We have won with this o-line, and the pieces we have have the talent. I think the schemes may be to blame, and you might be right about the OL coach, but dont throw the babay out with the bath water.
Ur right i should settle down LOL
I just hate to see a guy as big and well paid as Dockery get tossed around and have no push at all in the run game, i am starting ot wonder if it is intelligence that Dockery and Peters lack
They both were pass blocking on that run play on the goaline yesterday, and seem to have no chemistry playing together almost 2 yrs now
Also Center has to and i mean has to be addressed in the offseason no later than round 3, and we need to seriously upgrade the FB position
if you want one u can get one in every draft, Hedgecock, Schmitt, Karney, are all late rd picks 5-7 rd
Southerland from GA looks sweet

[clumping platelets]

:popcorn:

[Lexwhat]

You list well established perrennial play off teams as examples. Hows it going for Robert Gallery? Leonard Davis for the Cards?

Any rookie can look good when you have hall of fame QB's like Brady and Manning.

The other thing is you only list T's and mostly LT's. Peters is a pro-bowler IMO. Yes, even this year. Your talking about G's and C's here.

BTW, we drafted Mike Williams as you know. And you also know the result.

Mike Williams was 2002 under Donohoe. What's Russ Brandon/Marv Levy's excuse? And what do Robert Gallery and Leonard Davis have to do with anything? This is not a discussion about 1st round busts, but it's about drafting players who would be able to start as rookies or 2nd year players. Our front office should be drafting better.

The Panthers / Broncos / Falcons / Chiefs are not exactly well established perennial playoff teams. I know I am talking about guards and centers. My point is that if a TACKLE can start on Day 1, why can't a Guard or Center start on day 1 as well, or AT LEAST during their 2nd year??

[Lexwhat]

Problem is... We draft very few O-liemen before round 7. It's almost like we expect them to fall into our laps as undrafted FA's. While there are a few feel good stories via that route... It's not enough to sustain a successful O-line.

Exactly my point!!

[clumping platelets]

Why this is directed at the masses....I'll never know :shakeno:

Dockery rec'd a $8.1 million signing bonus in 2007 that is amortized at $1.35 million/yr for 6 yrs. He also rec'd a $4.4 million roster bonus in 2007. In 2008, he rec'd a $3.5 million roster bonus. That's a total of $16 million guaranteed. Add salaries for both 2007 ($1 million) & 2008 ($1.5 million) and it's essentially $18.5 million

cash to cap

2007: $8.1 million + $4.4 million + $1 million = $13.5 million

2008: $1.5 million + $3.5 million = $5 million

[PECKERWOOD]

Let me go on the record and say that the problem isn't Peters, Dockery or Walker but it's solely on Butler's injury and Fowler's performance. We need a stud center next year and alot of our problems will go away.

[patmoran2006]

Why this is directed at the masses....I'll never know :shakeno:

Dockery rec'd a $8.1 million signing bonus in 2007 that is amortized at $1.35 million/yr for 6 yrs. He also rec'd a $4.4 million roster bonus in 2007. In 2008, he rec'd a $3.5 million roster bonus. That's a total of $16 million guaranteed. Add salaries for both 2007 ($1 million) & 2008 ($1.5 million) and it's essentially $18.5 million

cash to cap

2007: $8.1 million + $4.4 million + $1 million = $13.5 million

2008: $1.5 million + $3.5 million = $5 million
You're the one I been waiting to hear from.

So just numbers-wise, so I understand.
What would be the effect, either way of the Bills cap in 2009 if we were to release Dockery before FA starts next offseason?

[patmoran2006]

Let me go on the record and say that the problem isn't Peters, Dockery or Walker but it's solely on Butler's injury and Fowler's performance. We need a stud center next year and alot of our problems will go away.
Really?

Have you seen what happens when we run left?

[patmoran2006]

IMO. Peters and Walker are the only two on the OL worth keeping, and I only say Peters because I think his crap play right now is more mental than physical.