The easiest way to have RW get the most money out of selling the Bills is quite easy

[Mitchy moo]

If Ralph Wilson's family gets together and buys a piece of real estate for a new stadium and builds a new stadium there, they can collect a 15% max capital gains after 1 year and a day of ownership regardless of the improvements on property. Ralph personally guarantees the stadium and backs it collateralized by current holding / property value including the Bills.

Upon Ralph's death, the family is able to sell the ground / stadium and all the surrounding infrastructure for a set price and makes the sale contigent upon NFL approval of the new owner. The family can load a huge majority of the profit into the stadium cost and take it away from the higher tax base of selling the Bills in a probate / will scenario.

So doing the math:

$800 Million cost of the Bills - 40% for federal state BS nets the family $480 M total to be broken up with no stadium.

New stadium cost $475 M + Cost of Bills + $800 = $1.275 Billion.

Charge the new owner $1 Billon for the stadium and $275 M for the Bills.

$1 Billion - $475 Million cost base = $525 Million X 15% = $78,750,000 tax cost to the family.

$275 Million X 40% estate / misc. = $110,000,000 Millions in taxes owed.

$188,750,000 owed in taxes on my scenario

Versus

$320,000,000 owed playing it straight upon death.

Net tax savings is $131,125,000 which is the equivolent of selling it for about $220,000,000 more or $1.022 Billion (which he would not get).

The Wilson family gets all their money plus, the area gets a new stadium and the county gets to generate new revenue and rebuild the area around it at a premium.

The fans get to keep their team, RW legacy is cemented on the wall and we have our Bills.

Simple.

[Mitchy moo]

By the way, I do deals like this for a living and try to maximize people's positions legally.

The Wilson family would also be allowed to 1031 or defer some of the money to other real estate / business holdings witouth incurring any taxes owed at that time but could not do more than 3 different purchases with the total amount. (Buy Galleria Mall, the Mall in edmonton / with that cool rink and a casino might not be a bad idea).

[mackey789]

Do you have connections that feel RW will sell the team to Kelly's group?

[OpIv37]

one HUGE flaw in your logic: Sale of NFL teams must be approved by the league (I believe by the other 31 owners, but I digress)- why the hell would the league allow the Wilson family to sell the Bills for $275 million when they're worth $800 million? That's insane. It devalues the other teams in the league and the league would never go for it.

[Mitchy moo]

one HUGE flaw in your logic: Sale of NFL teams must be approved by the league (I believe by the other 31 owners, but I digress)- why the hell would the league allow the Wilson family to sell the Bills for $275 million when they're worth $800 million? That's insane. It devalues the other teams in the league and the league would never go for it.

How would selling anything in Buffalo NY be considered a measuring stick for anything else in the US?? The average home cost in Buffalo is like 25% of most other major market's average home costs. This event could be considered a one time thing. One time sales do not affect a market value, ever. The argument can also be made that the stadium ate up most of the value of the team and can therefore the family made a intelligently structured estate move.

[Mitchy moo]

There are plenty of tracs of land available downtown (shooters old site / surrounding areas), that could be had for a song & dance right now as well.

[OpIv37]

How would selling anything in Buffalo NY be considered a measuring stick for anything else in the US?? The average home cost in Buffalo is like 25% of most other major market's average home costs. This event could be considered a one time thing. One time sales do not affect a market value, ever. The argument can also be made that the stadium ate up most of the value of the team and can therefore the family made a intelligently structured estate move.

we're not talking about real estate- we're talking about the team itself. There are only 32 NFL teams, and they are rarely, if ever, sold. When was the last time a team changed owners due to a sale (not a death like Wellington Mara or Lamar Hunt)?

In your industry- in normal real estate, or even in corporate sales, you're probably right. A one time sale does not affect the market value. But we're not talking about a housing market with 1000's of houses. We're talking about 32 teams that rarely if ever change hands. A one time sale absolutely can affect market value.

If the NFL is trying to sell the Jaguars to, say, LA, for $750 million, potential buyers are going to say "why is this team worth $750m when you just let the Wilsons sell the Bills for $275m?"

[Mski]

we're not talking about real estate- we're talking about the team itself. There are only 32 NFL teams, and they are rarely, if ever, sold. When was the last time a team changed owners due to a sale (not a death like Wellington Mara or Lamar Hunt)?

In your industry- in normal real estate, or even in corporate sales, you're probably right. A one time sale does not affect the market value. But we're not talking about a housing market with 1000's of houses. We're talking about 32 teams that rarely if ever change hands. A one time sale absolutely can affect market value.

If the NFL is trying to sell the Jaguars to, say, LA, for $750 million, potential buyers are going to say "why is this team worth $750m when you just let the Wilsons sell the Bills for $275m?"

thats not how i read it... what skooby was saying is they would sell the team for 275 mill AND the stadium for 1 bill, as a package deal.


so the sale would be for 1.275 bil, all or nothing, therefor not affecting other teams values

[OpIv37]

thats not how i read it... what skooby was saying is they would sell the team for 275 mill AND the stadium for 1 bill, as a package deal.


so the sale would be for 1.275 bil, all or nothing, therefor not affecting other teams values

it does though, because the cost of the TEAM is still only $275 million, which is way too low. Many teams lease their stadiums- they don't own them- so there would be no way to arrange a comparable deal. And if an ownership group wanted to buy a team, they wouldn't be buying a stadium and they'd solely be looking at the price of the team.

[Mitchy moo]

it does though, because the cost of the TEAM is still only $275 million, which is way too low. Many teams lease their stadiums- they don't own them- so there would be no way to arrange a comparable deal. And if an ownership group wanted to buy a team, they wouldn't be buying a stadium and they'd solely be looking at the price of the team.

How they structure the numbers is for tax advantage purposes only & should not be misconstrude as anythng but that.

When you see these mega-billion dollar purchases of companies, don't you think that the selling company adjusts a majority of the value dollar placement towards the assets with lowest tax reprecussions? I do this all day and when you see the numbers, they skew them as far as they can to maximize the return. I used a simple math calculation to show the basics but I did not go into cost placement, depreciation, time / money value adjustment, asset management and 40 more complex ways that I can hide money legally and make adjustments.

Just because I say I do high end real estate, don't assume it's all just big houses. I do little houses, little commercial and generally anything that makes money. Not every tree grows tall but sometimes there is another huge forest not far away related to that little tree.

[OpIv37]

How they structure the numbers is for tax advantage purposes only & should not be misconstrude as anythng but that.



it shouldn't be, but it will. That's the disconnect.

[Mitchy moo]

it does though, because the cost of the TEAM is still only $275 million, which is way too low. Many teams lease their stadiums- they don't own them- so there would be no way to arrange a comparable deal. And if an ownership group wanted to buy a team, they wouldn't be buying a stadium and they'd solely be looking at the price of the team.

If one thing is contingent on the other, then the final numbers are for accounting purposes only. If you broke down the foreign investment / purchase made in A-Busch recently, you'll find that the originating company was counting on the dollar getting alot stronger versus their own currency. Go back & check the dates on the purchase time and see how much the US dollar swung up since.

Remember, everything has a reason and an excuse. Read the excuse and you'll know the reason.

[Mitchy moo]

it shouldn't be, but it will. That's the disconnect.

We're in a recession OP, the value of things generally go down. What makes you think that you would ever really know how they broke the numbers down in the first place?? The NFL has 0 reporting liability to any public forum nor do they have to disclose their own tactics to do business. The NFL even had it's own police force / army but you hear very little of that because it's not really spoken of.

Do you know who blew the whistle on Plaxico?? The NFL police force called him into the authorities after the hospital failed to report a gunshot wound was inflicted. Think if Plaxico was being good over the past several months this would of been swept under the rug?? You better believe it. Now, Plaxico is going to get railroaded and probably have his contract voided for misconduct and the salary cap money maybe adjusted as well I bet. The freaking mayor of NY called for Plaxico's head on a platter and the maximum extent of the law for punishment, what a joke that is. Some of the players have been caught with enough firepower to start a small war & they get reprimanded / or almost nothing.

Know the excuse, know the reason.

[jamze132]

I don't think enough owners in the NFL give two ****s about Buffalo and could care less if we stay. If the deal is proffitable for them or for the league, they more than likely won't approve it. But I like your idea Skoobs.

[Ebenezer]

Isn't the easiest way for RW to get as much money out of the sale of the team is to die in 2009? No inheritance tax in 2009, correct? If so, watch it happen. That man has made more money out of running a dysfunction pro franchise than anybody could ever imagine. It will be his luck to die during a year when there is no inheritance tax.

N.B. - I am not wishing RW to depart this world...he is the only chance of this team being in Buffalo - he must live to be 217....then again, they will be mediocre for all those years, too. :sad:

[jamze132]

Isn't the easiest way for RW to get as much money out of the sale of the team is to die in 2009? No inheritance tax in 2009, correct? If so, watch it happen. That man has made more money out of running a dysfunction pro franchise than anybody could ever imagine. It will be his luck to die during a year when there is no inheritance tax.

N.B. - I am not wishing RW to depart this world...he is the only chance of this team being in Buffalo - he must live to be 217....then again, they will be mediocre for all those years, too. :sad:
You're a sick puppy!





j/k

[Lone Stranger]

Skooby, I like your thinking here. It certainly does imply there is flexibility here. But I believe we are dealing with "substance vs. form" issues here and I doubt that your allocations would hold in court. However, I also believe there is an opportunity to minimize the tax impact but not to the extent you indicate.

[Boomstick]

This seems manipulative to the system, weasel-y, snake-ish and slime filled to the max against the league... I effing LOVE it!

[Mitchy moo]

This seems manipulative to the system, weasel-y, snake-ish and slime filled to the max against the league... I effing LOVE it!

LOL, classic.

[Boomstick]

LOL, classic.
I mean it though! This league has crapped on small market teams for years now. They always have their big market favorite. Such as the Cowboys, or New England. Right now if the league was on New England's junk any harder they would be their nutsack. So I think something like this would be a good way for a potential owner to say "Fark you" to the league.