So...Whitner. He'll Be an Impact Player Soon, Right?

[raphael120]

He shows me nothing.

He got picked on A LOT in the game and I think he's more of a liability in pass coverage than anything.

Same with Poz. I just think that either Poz and Whitner aren't that good, or we're just not using them right.

There are players drafted lower than Whitner who are making bigger impacts.

No INTs, no fumbles, only 1...ONE pass defended. He only has 1 sack.

It's getting to the point where there is no one from the '06 draft who is useful at all.

[hydro]

He gets "picked on" in one game and he is a liability in coverage. Ok...

[raphael120]

He gets "picked on" in one game and he is a liability in coverage. Ok...
It's not just 1 game, genius. Try most of them he's played in.

Name 1 game where he has made a huge play.

[OpIv37]

He gets "picked on" in one game and he is a liability in coverage. Ok...

he gave up TD's two games in a row. He gave up a TD to Carlson against Seattle. HE consistently struggles against TE's in pass coverage. He rarely if ever gets his hands on the ball (and there are stats to prove it). Calling him a "liability" may be going a little too far, but it's been a LOT more than one game where he got "picked on."

The Jets game was one of the worst he's played.

But for some reason, Whitner is sacred around here. No matter how poorly he plays, everyone rushes to his defense. What is it about this guy that makes him immune from criticism?

[patmoran2006]

like it or not, Whitner has played more like a 4th or 5th rounder than the 8th pick in the draft.

It was a TERRIBLE move by Levy/Modrak in hindsight, when guys like Sims, Ngata and especially Cutler went soon after.

[DraftBoy]

He is doing what was expected of him out of college. A solid coverage guy, who is a good tackler. He'll get beat and make mistakes in coverage, but he'll never be a ball hawk. So for some to expect these stats from him that are beyond reality is just as bad as those who think he's sacred too. Whitner has had a down year but as a whole we could be doing a lot worse at SS. He should be playing CB, imo.

[hydro]

he gave up TD's two games in a row. He gave up a TD to Carlson against Seattle. HE consistently struggles against TE's in pass coverage. He rarely if ever gets his hands on the ball (and there are stats to prove it). Calling him a "liability" may be going a little too far, but it's been a LOT more than one game where he got "picked on."

The Jets game was one of the worst he's played.

But for some reason, Whitner is sacred around here. No matter how poorly he plays, everyone rushes to his defense. What is it about this guy that makes him immune from criticism?

Because everytime he makes one mistake it is blown out of proportion. Watch a whole Colts season and tell me if Bob Sanders plays PERFECT every game.

[trapezeus]

i like whitner, but his play is falling off big time. and he isn't even an impact player to begin with.

I was at the arizona game where the cardinals literally carved us up like a turkey. and anytime whitner came up on the slot receiver, the pass went to the Whitner receiver. it was usually completed and it was usually 3rd down. The play would result in a first down.

I realize he's playing severely injured right now, but these are the signs that the front office player personell is not getting the job done. They are missing on so many picks it's disgusting. The bills have been a 5-11 to 8-8 team for 7 years now. We need much better picks than this.

[OpIv37]

Because everytime he makes one mistake it is blown out of proportion. Watch a whole Colts season and tell me if Bob Sanders plays PERFECT every game.

Once again, when Whitner balances out his mistakes with big plays like Bob Sanders does, people will stop talking about them. Whitner brings the propensity to make mistakes without the potential for the big play.

And the guy was picked at #8. He's supposed to be under the microscope.

[OpIv37]

and btw I really despise this "It's ok for Whitner to make mistakes because Bob Sanders does too" mentality. Everyone is responsible for their own performance and what someone else does on a different team is irrelevant.

[hydro]

and btw I really despise this "It's ok for Whitner to make mistakes because Bob Sanders does too" mentality. Everyone is responsible for their own performance and what someone else does on a different team is irrelevant.

So you can't compare players? Especially when this "Big Play" stuff comes up because the week before someone saw Bob Sanders on ESPN? How else does the big play stuff come up?

[HHURRICANE]

Whitner should be moved to CB and if Yobouty comes back healthy we should make him the SS.

Poz should be playing OLB not MLB.

[EDS]

Once again, when Whitner balances out his mistakes with big plays like Bob Sanders does, people will stop talking about them. Whitner brings the propensity to make mistakes without the potential for the big play.

And the guy was picked at #8. He's supposed to be under the microscope.

I agree. You just don't draft a safety with the 8th pick in the draft unless you think the guy will be a game changer. Whitner hasn't been that for the Bills so in my mind, he is a disappointment.

I like the idea of switching him to corner except for the dearth of starting caliber safety talent on the Bills roster.

[gr8slayer]

He's doing exactly what's asked of him given the scheme. Put him in a defense where he is free to roam and play up at the line more and you'd see better results.

[OpIv37]

So you can't compare players? Especially when this "Big Play" stuff comes up because the week before someone saw Bob Sanders on ESPN? How else does the big play stuff come up?

see, now you're changing the topic.

This thread wasn't about Whitner not making big plays. It was about something much more elementary: making mistakes and getting beat in coverage. You're the one who made the Bob Sanders comparison, not the people criticizing Whitner. No one is saying Whitner should be Bob Sanders- we are saying he should make fewer mistakes and be better in coverage.

You're mentality seems to be "It's ok if Whitner gets 'picked on' because Bob Sanders makes mistakes too." Well, it's NOT ok. Pass coverage is part of Whitner's job and he blew it the last two weeks.

[OpIv37]

He's doing exactly what's asked of him given the scheme.

you can make that argument for the lack of big plays. But he's gotten beat BAD in pass coverage several times the last few games. Believe me- that's not doing what he's asked.

[hydro]

I agree. You just don't draft a safety with the 8th pick in the draft unless you think the guy will be a game changer. Whitner hasn't been that for the Bills so in my mind, he is a disappointment.

I like the idea of switching him to corner except for the dearth of starting caliber safety talent on the Bills roster.

That is where my problem with the Whitner bashing comes in. It isn't his fault that our FO thought they should reach and pick him at #8 and subsequently be put in a position that really doesn't suit him.

If anything, it should be the coaching staff and FO's fault putting him in a position that would result in him not living up to his draft position.

[RockStar36]

Because everytime he makes one mistake it is blown out of proportion. Watch a whole Colts season and tell me if Bob Sanders plays PERFECT every game.

That would be impossible considering he is hurt 50% of the season. I like the guy personally but he is ALWAYS injured.

I'm becoming less and less sold on Whitner though. Then again, I'm disgusted with the entire season so I might just be taking it out on all the players.

[bflobarry]

Because everytime he makes one mistake it is blown out of proportion. Watch a whole Colts season and tell me if Bob Sanders plays PERFECT every game.
..."one mistake?".....He had 4 (FOUR!) passes completed on him on Sunday IN THE FIRST QUARTER! And, he was the #8 overall pick. I think after 3 years, we should expect a lot more out of him. He is average, at best.

[hydro]

you can make that argument for the lack of big plays. But he's gotten beat BAD in pass coverage several times the last few games. Believe me- that's not doing what he's asked.

The last few games? As in the games that he has comeback in and not been 100%? Those games?

[trapezeus]

and btw I really despise this "It's ok for Whitner to make mistakes because Bob Sanders does too" mentality. Everyone is responsible for their own performance and what someone else does on a different team is irrelevant.

I think you should compare players. Sanders makes mistakes. We all know this. But Sanders make big plays. he's a hard hitter. When he is on the field, OC's think about keeping wide outs out of his zones. That automatically changes the tempo of the game.

Whitner's presence in single coverage actually has OC's wanting to throw in his direction. He doesn't get picks. He doesn't make huge plays. He makes mistakes too.

He can't even compare to the good that Sanders offers.

[OpIv37]

The last few games? As in the games that he has comeback in and not been 100%? Those games?

Was he 100% in the first game of the season when a ROOKIE TE beat him for a touchdown? It wasn't just those games, but those were 2 of his worst.

See, this is EXACTLY the problem. Every time someone comes up with a legitimate criticism of Whitner, someone like you tries to make it look like he's being unfairly singled out for a bad play or two, or makes it look like the expectations are too high, or comes up with an excuse (like injury or the "system").

Is Whitner awful? No (well, he was the last two games but he's generally not awful when he's healthy). Has he EVER lived up to his billing as the #8 draft pick? No. Is he an impact player? No. Does he make more mistakes than he should? Yes.

That's the reality of the situation.

[RockStar36]

Actually what started to really piss me off and turn me away from Whitner was Bob Sanders. The guy was drafted in the 2nd round and is by far making a bigger impact. How many times have you heard someone say , "Indy's defense is completely different with Sanders" or how much you have to respect the guy.

Ask those same people about Whitner and they will probably say "who?".

[DraftBoy]

Was he 100% in the first game of the season when a ROOKIE TE beat him for a touchdown? It wasn't just those games, but those were 2 of his worst.

See, this is EXACTLY the problem. Every time someone comes up with a legitimate criticism of Whitner, someone like you tries to make it look like he's being unfairly singled out for a bad play or two, or makes it look like the expectations are too high, or comes up with an excuse (like injury or the "system").

Is Whitner awful? No (well, he was the last two games but he's generally not awful when he's healthy). Has he EVER lived up to his billing as the #8 draft pick? No. Is he an impact player? No. Does he make more mistakes than he should? Yes.

That's the reality of the situation.


Dude seriously if thats all you got then you have no room to criticize. Every player gets beat during the season, if all you have is one good example then you have no ground to stand on. I think his play has been down but I dont cling to one play in the first game of the season as your lone point. He could of gotten beat by a 4th string PS player in the 1st game. I can live with a guy getting beat a couple of times, that's fine. What I can't live with is deteriorating play and consistent mental errors. There is not a guy in the league that is not beaten at least once a season, so get off the Carlson TD catch already, and move on to your better points.

[OpIv37]

Dude seriously if thats all you got then you have no room to criticize. Every player gets beat during the season, if all you have is one good example then you have no ground to stand on. I think his play has been down but I dont cling to one play in the first game of the season as your lone point. He could of gotten beat by a 4th string PS player in the 1st game. I can live with a guy getting beat a couple of times, that's fine. What I can't live with is deteriorating play and consistent mental errors. There is not a guy in the league that is not beaten at least once a season, so get off the Carlson TD catch already, and move on to your better points.

Oh, that's far from all I got.

When was the last time Whitner shut down a good TE? Whitner's gotten beat at least 3 times by TE's for touchdowns this season. It's not just that occurrence, but getting beat by a rookie playing his first game? Seriously? You're defending that because all players get beat?

It's Whitner's job to shut down that play, not to get beat and then say "Yeah, I got beat but oh well, happens to everyone over the course of a season."

And BTW, that was a game where the Bills basically shut down everything Seattle was doing. But they still managed to sneak one by Whitner.

[RockStar36]

If it wasn't for seeing Whitner's back to a play when the receiver is catching it, I would never even know he was playing in the game.

Then you watch a team with an elite safety, and that guy is all over the field. The difference is night and day.

[trapezeus]

whitner messed up the 3rd and 1 in the miami game in toronto and then gave up the touchdown to the TE. That's two errors in back to back plays. proof positive that whitner isn't succeeding whether it be the scheme, the injury or his overall talent. We aren't getting top 8 pick production out of him, and i'm not sure we re going to.

[DraftBoy]

Oh, that's far from all I got.

When was the last time Whitner shut down a good TE? Whitner's gotten beat at least 3 times by TE's for touchdowns this season. It's not just that occurrence, but getting beat by a rookie playing his first game? Seriously? You're defending that because all players get beat?

It's Whitner's job to shut down that play, not to get beat and then say "Yeah, I got beat but oh well, happens to everyone over the course of a season."

And BTW, that was a game where the Bills basically shut down everything Seattle was doing. But they still managed to sneak one by Whitner.


All you're doing is hurting your own point. You're attempting to hold him up to this higher standard thats not fair. Players get beat its a fact, its not a defense of him. Not a player in the NFL doesn't get beat at least once in an NFL season. Talk about his mental mistakes in coverage, talk about his play recognition skills, talk about his man up coverage on the slot WR, but just get off the one time you can pin point the time he got beat. We know he got beat, it happens there is a lot more to look at then that one little play. Would you rather he sit around and mope about it. I want players who will forget about getting beat and move on, call me crazy.

And what is this last three TE comment you are talking about??

In the last 5 games TE's we have played have combined for 19 catches, 224 yards, and 2 TD's. That an average of 3.8 catches, 44.8 yards, and .4 TD's per game. Spread out over a full season thats 61 catches, 717 yards, and 6 TD's. The only TE to actually really hurt us this year was Tony Gonzalez. Here is the last 5 TE's and their stats v. us;

Vernon Davis-0 Catches
Tony Gonzalez-10 Catches, 113 yards, 1 TD
Kellen Winslow-3 Catches, 40 yards
Anthony Fasano-3 Catches, 36 yards, 1 TD
Dustin Keller-3 Catches, 35 yards

Im sorry Im not buying your Whitner is to blame for TE's lighting us up argument.

[bigbub2352]

Whitner is a bum
sorry guys, the 8th overall pick and we missed out on Ngata, huuuuuuuggggeee mistake, u never pass on a franchise DT EVER and we did
Whitner makes no plays in the run game cause he trys to arm tackle everyone, he doesnt make anyone pay for coming over the middle, and gets beat alot
He has slow recognition skills and bites to much on play fakes,
Gives to much cushion to WRs and TEs on 3rd down
Is not an effective blitzer at all
and constantly misses tackles up the middle

IM sorry i hated the pick then and still do this is a huge mistake by our front office
U can draft a safty every year in the draft u cant fing 350lb DTs every year
WHitner is a bust

[RockStar36]

Bob Sanders, Troy Polamalu, and Ed Reed were all drafted after the 8th overall pick. Different drafts, but still, you get the point. Whitner was drafted very high and therefore, he should be playing at a high level.

[Mitchell55]

All you're doing is hurting your own point. You're attempting to hold him up to this higher standard thats not fair. Players get beat its a fact, its not a defense of him. Not a player in the NFL doesn't get beat at least once in an NFL season. Talk about his mental mistakes in coverage, talk about his play recognition skills, talk about his man up coverage on the slot WR, but just get off the one time you can pin point the time he got beat. We know he got beat, it happens there is a lot more to look at then that one little play. Would you rather he sit around and mope about it. I want players who will forget about getting beat and move on, call me crazy.

And what is this last three TE comment you are talking about??

In the last 5 games TE's we have played have combined for 19 catches, 224 yards, and 2 TD's. That an average of 3.8 catches, 44.8 yards, and .4 TD's per game. Spread out over a full season thats 61 catches, 717 yards, and 6 TD's. The only TE to actually really hurt us this year was Tony Gonzalez. Here is the last 5 TE's and their stats v. us;

Vernon Davis-0 Catches
Tony Gonzalez-10 Catches, 113 yards, 1 TD
Kellen Winslow-3 Catches, 40 yards
Anthony Fasano-3 Catches, 36 yards, 1 TD
Dustin Keller-3 Catches, 35 yards

Im sorry Im not buying your Whitner is to blame for TE's lighting us up argument.




Actually Whitner didnt even cover TG in that game, it was Ko.

[patmoran2006]

Because everytime he makes one mistake it is blown out of proportion. Watch a whole Colts season and tell me if Bob Sanders plays PERFECT every game.
how often does he IMPACT a game??

he's a top 10 pick, he should be a DIFFERENCE MAKER!!!!!!!!! Not just an adequate starter.

[DraftBoy]

Whitner is a bum
sorry guys, the 8th overall pick and we missed out on Ngata, huuuuuuuggggeee mistake, u never pass on a franchise DT EVER and we did
Whitner makes no plays in the run game cause he trys to arm tackle everyone, he doesnt make anyone pay for coming over the middle, and gets beat alot
He has slow recognition skills and nites to much on play fakes,
Gives to much cushion to WRs and TEs on 3rd down
Is not an effective blitzer at all
and constantly misses tackles up the middle

IM sorry i hated the pick then and still do this is a huge mistake by our front office
U can draft a safty every year in the draft u cant fing 350lb DTs every year
WHitner is a bust


Can we please for the love of god get off the Ngata thing ever. Even if we don't take Whitner we WERE NEVER going to take Ngata. He's a 3-4 DT, we run a 4-3, and we had no intention of changing it for one player. There is no telling how good he would be in our system. You cant fairly compare his performance in Baltimore and say he would of been the same or a similar player here.

[RockStar36]

Who covered Antonio Gates in the SD game?

[DraftBoy]

Who covered Antonio Gates in the SD game?
Im pretty sure both Safties have covered the TE's in all our games. In the C2 system you usually dont assign the TE to only one player.

[Mitchell55]

Who covered Antonio Gates in the SD game?




Scott.

[Mitchell55]

how often does he IMPACT a game??

he's a top 10 pick, he should be a DIFFERENCE MAKER!!!!!!!!! Not just an adequate starter.



He does his job but is not a game changer. Hes great at what he does but doesnt make big time plays.

[RockStar36]

Scott.

Thanks.

That was the point I was trying to get across.

[hydro]

That is where my problem with the Whitner bashing comes in. It isn't his fault that our FO thought they should reach and pick him at #8 and subsequently be put in a position that really doesn't suit him.

If anything, it should be the coaching staff and FO's fault putting him in a position that would result in him not living up to his draft position.

:idunno: Nobody has anything to say about this?

[RockStar36]

I know there is a difference between defensive schemes and safety position and all that...but I could easily name at least 10 safeties right now in the league who make an impact for their team and they were all drafted below what Whitner was drafted.

[Mitchell55]

Heres a good way to show how good he is. We moved him to fs, that means he controlls the left part of the field. Since this move, all of the long runs and passes have been to the right side of the field. TGs catches, ginns catches, and Harrisons run were all to the right.

[DraftBoy]

I know there is a difference between defensive schemes and safety position and all that...but I could easily name at least 10 safeties right now in the league who make an impact for their team and they were all drafted below what Whitner was drafted.


No doubt about it, and I completely agree but to bash the guy for where our dumbass FO picked him doesn't make a ton of sense either. He's not a bust, he just hasn't lived up to #8 overall pick expectations.

[Mitchell55]

No doubt about it, and I completely agree but to bash the guy for where our dumbass FO picked him doesn't make a ton of sense either. He's not a bust, he just hasn't lived up to #8 overall pick expectations.



Hes not a bad player, just the wrong pick.

[RockStar36]

No doubt about it, and I completely agree but to bash the guy for where our dumbass FO picked him doesn't make a ton of sense either. He's not a bust, he just hasn't lived up to #8 overall pick expectations.

Very true. Never thought about it like that, but still, because of where he was picked he is going to be held to that standard.

[TacklingDummy]

I don't bash him because he was picked 8th. I bash him because he plays poorly.

[OpIv37]

No doubt about it, and I completely agree but to bash the guy for where our dumbass FO picked him doesn't make a ton of sense either. He's not a bust, he just hasn't lived up to #8 overall pick expectations.

Here's the problem: The FO was wrong to pick him at #8 and that's not his fault. But teams that don't get production out of high-round draft picks end up losing because a) the draft picks weren't used right and b) high draft picks get big salaries, which is cap money that can't be used elsewhere.

So, if Whitner doesn't play up to the standards of a #8 pick, it's bad news for the team as a whole. Fair or not, that's how he was selected and that's how he will be judged.

[OpIv37]

:idunno: Nobody has anything to say about this?

The FO is not putting him in a position to make big plays. That subject has been beaten to death.

But it's no excuse for getting beat in coverage as much as he has been lately (or even going back to the first game of the year).

[TacklingDummy]

For someone who guaranteed the playoffs, you would think he would have produced more.

[chernobylwraiths]

I really have missed a lot of the recent games due to obligations, but have the Bills given up many big passing plays? I don't know how we could truly rate our DBs given the fact that many times they are playing a bit off the ball (thankfully not the ten yards that Jerry Gray had us playing off the ball) and the fact that we get virtually no pass rush, even when we blitz many times.

I personally would have liked Ngata at the time and in hindsight it would have been so much better had we gotten Ngata and moved up in the first for Whitner.

[bigbub2352]

Can we please for the love of god get off the Ngata thing ever. Even if we don't take Whitner we WERE NEVER going to take Ngata. He's a 3-4 DT, we run a 4-3, and we had no intention of changing it for one player. There is no telling how good he would be in our system. You cant fairly compare his performance in Baltimore and say he would of been the same or a similar player here.

Why is he a 3-4 DT cause that what Baltimore runs and he is talented enough to play that roll, i am sure he would not have had a problem at all playing in the 4-3 dont get so hung up on what Mock Draft experts say about the player coming out of college, any DT that big and athletic would be effective in any D u surrently run unless it is here with the horrible Cover @ scheme we try to run, he would be just as effective pluggin gaps and rushin the passer in a 4-3 as he is as a single disruptive force in a 3-4,
Problem is we missed out and over drafted as usual
We should have never taken Whitner were we did, and i would have the same comments about him if we took him in the 2nd or 3rd round
Problem is no matter how u put it he is not a playmaker and thats what u need to get at 8 a play maker or a differance maker
He is a big talker with little play to back it up
He is a bust for were we took him not how he was graded goin into the drat
Sorry DB no disrespect i understand what ur sayin but he sucks
Scott was the one shutting down TEs whitner is to small to do it in cverage and not a good enough tackler to be confused with the elite safties in the game
He is a bust

[DraftBoy]

Here's the problem: The FO was wrong to pick him at #8 and that's not his fault. But teams that don't get production out of high-round draft picks end up losing because a) the draft picks weren't used right and b) high draft picks get big salaries, which is cap money that can't be used elsewhere.

So, if Whitner doesn't play up to the standards of a #8 pick, it's bad news for the team as a whole. Fair or not, that's how he was selected and that's how he will be judged.


No that's how you will choose to judge him. Frankly after he gets picked, where he is picked is of little consequence to me. How does he rank in comparison to the rest of the NFL players at his position, is he playing well in his role in our scheme, Those are what matter, not some artificial expectations you or somebody else will lay on him because he went 8th overall in the draft.

[DraftBoy]

Why is he a 3-4 DT cause that what Baltimore runs and he is talented enough to play that roll, i am sure he would not have had a problem at all playing in the 4-3 dont get so hung up on what Mock Draft experts say about the player coming out of college, any DT that big and athletic would be effective in any D u surrently run unless it is here with the horrible Cover @ scheme we try to run, he would be just as effective pluggin gaps and rushin the passer in a 4-3 as he is as a single disruptive force in a 3-4,
Problem is we missed out and over drafted as usual
We should have never taken Whitner were we did, and i would have the same comments about him if we took him in the 2nd or 3rd round
Problem is no matter how u put it he is not a playmaker and thats what u need to get at 8 a play maker or a differance maker
He is a big talker with little play to back it up
He is a bust for were we took him not how he was graded goin into the drat
Sorry DB no disrespect i understand what ur sayin but he sucks
Scott was the one shutting down TEs whitner is to small to do it in cverage and not a good enough tackler to be confused with the elite safties in the game
He is a bust


You understand what he does in Baltimore best take up blockers and occupy space so the LB's can dominate the LOS and make plays in the backfield and is completely opposite from what he would be asked to do here. He would not be the same player and to assume so it ignore the key difference between the scheme the Ravens run and the scheme we run.

[EDS]

:idunno: Nobody has anything to say about this?

Everyine concedes that the front office and coaching is bad. That said, very high draft picks have bullseyes on them and are subject to high expectations. Nothing unfair about that.

[OpIv37]

No that's how you will choose to judge him. Frankly after he gets picked, where he is picked is of little consequence to me. How does he rank in comparison to the rest of the NFL players at his position, is he playing well in his role in our scheme, Those are what matter, not some artificial expectations you or somebody else will lay on him because he went 8th overall in the draft.

Artificial expectations? Maybe in terms of him personally, but in terms of the team as a whole, the expectation that early round draft picks play well is NOT artificial. Teams that don't draft well don't win, period.

As far as your other criteria- he's decent at best playing his role in the scheme and he's not in the top 10 as far as players at his position, arguably not in the top half (16).

[EDS]

You understand what he does in Baltimore best take up blockers and occupy space so the LB's can dominate the LOS and make plays in the backfield and is completely opposite from what he would be asked to do here. He would not be the same player and to assume so it ignore the key difference between the scheme the Ravens run and the scheme we run.

If Stroud can be effective in the Bills system and Kyle Williams can be semi-effective I have little doubt Ngata could be effective in the Bills system - he might even be better due to the fact that he is a better athlete then both and can get to the whole quicker.

[DraftBoy]

Artificial expectations? Maybe in terms of him personally, but in terms of the team as a whole, the expectation that early round draft picks play well is NOT artificial. Teams that don't draft well don't win, period.

As far as your other criteria- he's decent at best playing his role in the scheme and he's not in the top 10 as far as players at his position, arguably not in the top half (16).



Alright you did just what I was hoping you would and kept on flapping your gums. Tell me please what are the EXACT expectations of a top 10 SS pick, into a Cover 2 hybrid scheme. No generalities either, I want exact stats, yearly progressions and historical examples. Like you said these aren't artificial so it should be pretty easy to figure it out, because you obviously do. So please enlighten us all on that. Don't worry Ill wait for this response.

[DraftBoy]

If Stroud can be effective in the Bills system and Kyle Williams can be semi-effective I have little doubt Ngata could be effective in the Bills system - he might even be better due to the fact that he is a better athlete then both and can get to the whole quicker.


Completely different styles of play in the two. Stroud has always been a penetrating DT, Ngata has never been. Stroud would struggle as a 3-4 NT, imo. He's not a pocket collapser and he doesnt keep blockers occupied. He beats blockers.

[bigbub2352]

You understand what he does in Baltimore best take up blockers and occupy space so the LB's can dominate the LOS and make plays in the backfield and is completely opposite from what he would be asked to do here. He would not be the same player and to assume so it ignore the key difference between the scheme the Ravens run and the scheme we run.

I understand the philosphies, and agree with u on his responsibilites in them, but look how pathetic our Scheme is and how good Balt is, maybe if we drafted him we would not be in the situation we r now cause the coaches would have a different philophy
What the hell am i talking about coaching, lol thats our biggest problem
Just sayin all and all if we didnt run this pussy cover 2 scheme and ran a staright 4-3 like we did with teddy and pat he would have been solid as hell for us especially if we got Stroud in the mix like we do now
Sad it really is

[DraftBoy]

I understand the philosphies, and agree with u on his responsibilites in them, but look how pathetic our Scheme is and how good Balt is, maybe if we drafted him we would not be in the situation we r now cause the coaches would have a different philophy
What the hell am i talking about coaching, lol thats our biggest problem
Just sayin all and all if we didnt run this pussy cover 2 scheme and ran a staright 4-3 like we did with teddy and pat he would have been solid as hell for us especially if we got Stroud in the mix like we do now
Sad it really is


Id love to go a an aggressive base 4-3 base D like PIT and NYG. Ngata could succeed in that role but we weren't going to do that back then, so the pick would of been a bad one for us.

[OpIv37]

Alright you did just what I was hoping you would and kept on flapping your gums. Tell me please what are the EXACT expectations of a top 10 SS pick, into a Cover 2 hybrid scheme. No generalities either, I want exact stats, yearly progressions and historical examples. Like you said these aren't artificial so it should be pretty easy to figure it out, because you obviously do. So please enlighten us all on that. Don't worry Ill wait for this response.

you're ****ing kidding, right?

For me, it's much more simple than that. First round draft picks should be impact players, particularly at positions like S. Playing the role in the system simply isn't good enough. Guys picked in rounds 4-7 can play their role in the system.

[DraftBoy]

you're ****ing kidding, right?

For me, it's much more simple than that. First round draft picks should be impact players, particularly at positions like S. Playing the role in the system simply isn't good enough. Guys picked in rounds 4-7 can play their role in the system.


No no no Op, you can't say that, you said you don't create artificial expetations for him. "Impact player" does not tell us anything. We want stats, we want you to back up your comment. You are the one running your mouth here, now back it up. My question is not complicated or complex. You're the one who said your expectations are not artificial, so what are they EXACTLY. Ill continue to wait.

[TacklingDummy]

It kind of funny watching people defend Whitner after all the Front Office bashing that they have done.

[TacklingDummy]

We want stats


How about in 41 games, 2 INT, 1 FF, 0 FR 1 S, 7 PD?

[hydro]

Everyine concedes that the front office and coaching is bad. That said, very high draft picks have bullseyes on them and are subject to high expectations. Nothing unfair about that.

But to expect a Top 10 pick to play at that level when he shouldn't have been picked there is unfair. There is no two ways around it.

[OpIv37]

No no no Op, you can't say that, you said you don't create artificial expetations for him. "Impact player" does not tell us anything. We want stats, we want you to back up your comment. You are the one running your mouth here, now back it up. My question is not complicated or complex. You're the one who said your expectations are not artificial, so what are they EXACTLY. Ill continue to wait.

You're making this much more complicated than it has to be.

Whitner was chosen as the #8 pick. I know, you're going to come back and say "high draft picks usually don't live up to expectations", but teams where high draft picks do live up to expectations are teams that win.

Did you see Whitner miss the tackle in the hole against Miami?
Did you see Whitner give up a touchdown to the TE on the very next play?

Did you see Whitner get lit up by the Jets?

Did you see Whitner's paltry stat line?

Did you see Whitner making the tackle 8 yards into the endzone instead of BEFORE the guy scored and taking the penalty on it?

Have you seen Whitner make any big plays? If so, show me the video or at least the line in the game recap.

You sit there and want to say "he's not a bust- good enough." Well, it's NOT good enough.

[Lone Stranger]

Whitner has been a major disappointment- period. Anyone who tries to defend him is not dealing with a full deck. He is notoriously poor in pass coverage and seldom makes significant plays. Those are just the facts.

This is another example of the very poor drafting under the Modrak regime.

[DraftBoy]

You're making this much more complicated than it has to be.

Whitner was chosen as the #8 pick. I know, you're going to come back and say "high draft picks usually don't live up to expectations", but teams where high draft picks do live up to expectations are teams that win.

Did you see Whitner miss the tackle in the hole against Miami?
Did you see Whitner give up a touchdown to the TE on the very next play?

Did you see Whitner get lit up by the Jets?

Did you see Whitner's paltry stat line?

Did you see Whitner making the tackle 8 yards into the endzone instead of BEFORE the guy scored and taking the penalty on it?

Have you seen Whitner make any big plays? If so, show me the video or at least the line in the game recap.

You sit there and want to say "he's not a bust- good enough." Well, it's NOT good enough.

So you are not going to back up your previous statement? Similar to the other comment you made in this thread about the last three TE's we played hurting us which was also disproven. You have not the faintest idea about what Im going to say. Ive made no comment about my personal opinion about Whitner so far. All I ask is that you clearly lay out what your expectations are for Whitner, its not a difficult question to ask and so far you have dodged it. Why?

[Mr. Pink]

:idunno: Nobody has anything to say about this?

It's the fault of our talent evaluators overvaluing him. It also still says to me that the organization had targetted Michael Huff heavily and when he went they went into panic mode and had no clue what to do.

Unfortunately for Donte, hes the guy that was picked there, he simply isn't 8th overall pick quality. I'm a fan of the Ohio State University and liked Whitner coming out of college but didn't think he was worthy of the pick then and certainly don't now.

So the blame is 50-50...our front office for not properly preparing for a draft and evaluating talent AND Donte's inability to be a difference maker.

For what we got in Whitner, we basically get out of George Wilson.

And that is mediocre to adequate play.

[EDS]

Completely different styles of play in the two. Stroud has always been a penetrating DT, Ngata has never been. Stroud would struggle as a 3-4 NT, imo. He's not a pocket collapser and he doesnt keep blockers occupied. He beats blockers.

He is quick enough to play end in Baltimore's system so again, I don't see how he would not be productive for the Bills. Williams isn't a penetrator either, yet for some reason he can play in the Bills system?

Ngata could play effectively in any system. He is talented and was the obvious pick at the time.

[EDS]

But to expect a Top 10 pick to play at that level when he shouldn't have been picked there is unfair. There is no two ways around it.

So should we give Mike Williams a pass too?

Like it or not the players are the embodiment of the front office's mistakes. It evidence as to why the Bills need new management.

I am not saying Whitner sucks, he is fine, but a disappointment given his draft position as we will always be reminded of what could have been (same goes for all the other draft screw ups: M. Williams, E. Flowers, McCargo, Losman, J. D. Williams, etc.).

[raphael120]

OK, let's put it this way.

McKelvin has played how many games this year?

Who thinks McKelvin in his what...like 10 games has made more big plays than Whitner has the 3 years he's been here?

I honestly think McKelvin is going to be above and beyond a better player. And I'm taking away the whole return game aspect.

[Owen DeBoard]

Id love to go a an aggressive base 4-3 base D like PIT and NYG. Ngata could succeed in that role but we weren't going to do that back then, so the pick would of been a bad one for us.
Doesnt PIT play a 3-4?

[raphael120]

BTW, here are the stats for McKelvin and Whitner.

McKelvin 0 sacks, 1 FF, 4 Passes Def., 2 INT, 1 INT TD
Whitner 1 sack, 0 FF, 1 Pass Def., 0 INT, 0 INT TD

McKelvin is a ROOKIE...and started in less games than Whitner.

[Owen DeBoard]

He is quick enough to play end in Baltimore's system so again, I don't see how he would not be productive for the Bills. Williams isn't a penetrator either, yet for some reason he can play in the Bills system?

Ngata could play effectively in any system. He is talented and was the obvious pick at the time.
Yeah just like Shaun Rogers plays the 3-4 in cleveland and in Detroit he played the 4-3 cover 2 so I dont see how Ngata couldnt do it.

[OpIv37]

So you are not going to back up your previous statement? Similar to the other comment you made in this thread about the last three TE's we played hurting us which was also disproven. You have not the faintest idea about what Im going to say. Ive made no comment about my personal opinion about Whitner so far. All I ask is that you clearly lay out what your expectations are for Whitner, its not a difficult question to ask and so far you have dodged it. Why?

It's an extremely difficult question that requires researching numbers on other safeties in the league and where they were drafted. Nothing short of that will satisfy you and I simply don't have time to do it.

Really? You disproved that Whitner gave up TD's to the TE's in the last two games? Where exactly did you do it, and how exactly did you do it since there is VIDEO OF IT HAPPENING?

I've backed up my opinion plenty- Whitner does not shut down TE's, he makes mistakes in the passing game, he doesn't make big plays, he gets beat in the running game more than he should (see the Dolphins game and the Giants game last year for 4 quality examples). He's certainly not as ineffectual as, say, Ko Simpson, but he leaves a lot to be desired and doesn't even come close to being an impact player.

[RockStar36]

It's nearly impossible to give exact stats. But watch a Steelers, Ravens, or Colts game and you'll see the difference. They have a safety who makes an impact, who you know is on the field, who the other teams fear. Like I said, you wouldn't even know Whitner was on the field if you didn't see his back while chasing the receiver during the play.

[Lexwhat]

he gave up TD's two games in a row. He gave up a TD to Carlson against Seattle. HE consistently struggles against TE's in pass coverage. He rarely if ever gets his hands on the ball (and there are stats to prove it). Calling him a "liability" may be going a little too far, but it's been a LOT more than one game where he got "picked on."

The Jets game was one of the worst he's played.

But for some reason, Whitner is sacred around here. No matter how poorly he plays, everyone rushes to his defense. What is it about this guy that makes him immune from criticism?

I've been right there with you the whole time.

[ddaryl]

Any Defensive Backfield is mostly only as good as how much pressure the DL puts on the QB on a regular basis... but Whitner hasn't made any pro-bowl statements

get a real pass rush and constant pressure on the QB and our entire DB corps will take a big step up...

[Lexwhat]

It's nearly impossible to give exact stats. But watch a Steelers, Ravens, or Colts game and you'll see the difference. They have a safety who makes an impact, who you know is on the field, who the other teams fear. Like I said, you wouldn't even know Whitner was on the field if you didn't see his back while chasing the receiver during the play.

Agreed 100%!!

I've watched Polamalu and Sanders in lots of games, which is partially what I based my criticism of Whitner on. Whitner is a very very average player, and definitely NOT a difference-maker.

[Lexwhat]

So you can't compare players? Especially when this "Big Play" stuff comes up because the week before someone saw Bob Sanders on ESPN? How else does the big play stuff come up?

Some people actually watch other games...

[patmoran2006]

But to expect a Top 10 pick to play at that level when he shouldn't have been picked there is unfair. There is no two ways around it.
if we picked 31st instead of 8th and took him< i'd consider him a dissapointment.

He's made ZERO IMPACT in three years. I'm not just talking sacks, INT and FF.

I'm talking about BIG PLAYS. A big pass breakup. . A big tackle for a one yard loss on 3rd and inches..

Nothing. .squat.

The HIGHLIGHT OF HIS CAREER is tackling a Raider 8 yards in the end zone and having the reaction be "he's a leader" from a lot of clowns in here.

[Lexwhat]

No doubt about it, and I completely agree but to bash the guy for where our dumbass FO picked him doesn't make a ton of sense either. He's not a bust, he just hasn't lived up to #8 overall pick expectations.

I think this is the argument most people have been making since the beginning.

[patmoran2006]

Any Defensive Backfield is mostly only as good as how much pressure the DL puts on the QB on a regular basis... but Whitner hasn't made and pro-bowl statements

get a real pass rush and constant pressure on the QB and our entire DB corps will take a big step up...
Which is exactly why a competent FO would've drafted Ngata, or even Bunkley before a safety.

I could argue EASILY that Whitner is around the same level as Scott and Wilson.

[don137]

I think someone summed it up best that whitner is a decent player but not someone that looks like a #8 overall pick.
I agree about Poz. I thought he would be a beast. He has been a majo disappointment. He gets pushed around way to much. I know the DTs if they did their job should clog the blockers to free up Poz so part of it is the DTs are not clogging the middle enough he does not do a good job shedding blockers and is not in enough big plays for a MLB.

[Mitchy moo]

Personally, I think our whole defensive strategy sucks.

[OpIv37]

I think someone summed it up best that whitner is a decent player but not someone that looks like a #8 overall pick.
I agree about Poz. I thought he would be a beast. He has been a majo disappointment. He gets pushed around way to much. I know the DTs if they did their job should clog the blockers to free up Poz so part of it is the DTs are not clogging the middle enough he does not do a good job shedding blockers and is not in enough big plays for a MLB.

I noticed exactly the same thing. He gets swallowed up on blitzes or when the run gets to the second level.

[Lexwhat]

You understand what he does in Baltimore best take up blockers and occupy space so the LB's can dominate the LOS and make plays in the backfield and is completely opposite from what he would be asked to do here. He would not be the same player and to assume so it ignore the key difference between the scheme the Ravens run and the scheme we run.


Can we please for the love of god get off the Ngata thing ever. Even if we don't take Whitner we WERE NEVER going to take Ngata. He's a 3-4 DT, we run a 4-3, and we had no intention of changing it for one player. There is no telling how good he would be in our system. You cant fairly compare his performance in Baltimore and say he would of been the same or a similar player here.


I can't believe you're saying this...

1. What do you mean "changing" our scheme. We never even had a scheme in place back in 2006!

2. In this league, for example, there's players (especially 1st rounders) who make the switch from DE to LB. You're telling me that they can't take a talented player like Ngata and put him in a 4-3 scheme??

3. You do realize that Ngata is so athletic for his size, that they sometimes line him up at SLB and MLB too to blitz? The guy is a football player, period.

[patmoran2006]

Lawyer Milloy, a guy we cut to get Whitner in here via the draft, was already "old" in 2006 and is even "older" three years later.

Yet Milloy three years later is STILL just as good as the younger Whitner is now. By the time Whitner amounts to anything his contract will be up.

[Bill Cody]

Here is what Scouts Inc had to say about Whitner before this season and where he's ranked among league safeties. He's not an elite player but he's solid. The people calling him a bust are exaggerating but he's not a guy you'd brag you took top ten either by any means. On the other hand if we took Michael Huff how would you guys be feeling? He was ranked higher and drafter higher than Whitner and he just got benched by Oakland. You don't have to get a Pro Bowler from a top ten pick but you've got to get some top players from some where and our problem is we're not finding the diamonds in the rough either. Dallas wasted a 1st rounder on Bobby Carpenter but got a Pro Bowler in the 7th round in Jay Ratliff- would it really make a difference if they took Ratliff in the 1st and Carpenter in the 7th? On balance I'd give the pick a C.

2008 Scouting Report - Scouts Inc.
Grade: 77 | Key (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/scouts/news/story?id=2996209)
Alert: None

Comment: Whitner is coming off his second season and has been one of the better young defenders in the league. He has good size, strength and athleticism. He is a hard-nosed safety who is better versus the run than defending the pass. He is often inverted and in the box in the Bills' defensive scheme. He shows great instincts, a good feel for angles and the ability to leverage the ball. He uses his hands well and can work through trash to stay alive to the pile. Whitner is a strong tackler who maintains good body position in the open field. He has good range off the hash, filling the alley or making plays across the field. He is best to jam receivers off the line of scrimmage in combination-zone coverages, but isn't as effective in pure man schemes. He has good foot agility, balance and quickness in space. Plus, he can redirect and close well to the ball. He isn't an outstanding coverage defender, but often he is used in the box and not in a ball hawking mode. Whitner has been very effective in the Bills' defensive philosophy and as a special team's contributor.
<TABLE class=tablehead cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3><TBODY><TR class=stathead bgColor=#00133f><TD colSpan=3>Safety - Top 10</TD></TR><TR class=colhead><TD>RK</TD><TD>PLAYER</TD><TD align=right>GRADE</TD></TR><TR class=evenrow><TD>1</TD><TD>Bob Sanders (http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/players/scouting?playerId=5569)</TD><TD align=right>91</TD></TR><TR class=oddrow><TD>2</TD><TD>Adrian Wilson (http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/players/scouting?playerId=2612)</TD><TD align=right>90</TD></TR><TR class=evenrow><TD>3</TD><TD>Ed Reed (http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/players/scouting?playerId=3552)</TD><TD align=right>90</TD></TR><TR class=oddrow><TD>4</TD><TD>Troy Polamalu (http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/players/scouting?playerId=4474)</TD><TD align=right>88</TD></TR><TR class=evenrow><TD>5</TD><TD>Kerry Rhodes (http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/players/scouting?playerId=8537)</TD><TD align=right>78</TD></TR><TR class=oddrow><TD>6</TD><TD>Tanard Jackson (http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/players/scouting?playerId=10550)</TD><TD align=right>78</TD></TR><TR class=evenrow><TD>7</TD><TD>Donte Whitner (http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/players/scouting?playerId=9594)</TD><TD align=right>77</TD></TR><TR class=oddrow><TD>8</TD><TD>Gibril Wilson (http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/players/scouting?playerId=5661)</TD><TD align=right>76</TD></TR><TR class=evenrow><TD>9</TD><TD>Brian Dawkins (http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/players/scouting?playerId=978)</TD><TD align=right>75</TD></TR><TR class=oddrow><TD>10</TD><TD>LaRon Landry (http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/players/scouting?playerId=10451)</TD><TD align=right>75</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[OpIv37]

Dallas wasted a 1st rounder on Bobby Carpenter but got a Pro Bowler in the 7th round in Jay Ratliff- would it really make a difference if they took Ratliff in the 1st and Carpenter in the 7th?

Yes it would because Carpenter made a ****load more money by getting picked in the first, and he did nothing with it. Ratliff got 7th round money, at least initially, which is great value.

The good teams aren't the teams that don't pay guys. They're the teams that pay the RIGHT guys. See Oakland and Indy- both pay guys, but Indy's guys show up every week.

[Bill Cody]

Yes it would because Carpenter made a ****load more money by getting picked in the first, and he did nothing with it. Ratliff got 7th round money, at least initially, which is great value.



My point is you need to find good players. Where they're drafted doesn't really matter at the end of the day as long as you end up with enough good ones. For Dallas, overpaying Carpenter was offset by underpaying Ratliff. Our trouble is we overpaid Whitner but underpaid....??? Truthfully I'm a lot more bothered by the McCargo pick than the Whitner pick, you trade up and then whiff.

[OpIv37]

My point is you need to find good players. Where they're drafted doesn't really matter at the end of the day as long as you end up with enough good ones. For Dallas, overpaying Carpenter was offset by underpaying Ratliff. Our trouble is we overpaid Whitner but underpaid....??? Truthfully I'm a lot more bothered by the McCargo pick than the Whitner pick, you trade up and then whiff.

the McCargo pick was a worse pick because we gave up an extra pick to get him and got literally nothing in return. At this point I'd call him a bust.

As frustrating as Whitner is, at least he's not completely useless.

[WagonCircler]

You know, I think of Marv whenever I hear Ralph say that this team "just doesn't have the talent..."

I've heard Marv resigned/retired because he wasn't involved in day to to decisions or operations. He said he felt more like a figure head.

I wonder to what extent this is true.

And if so, how long does Modrak survive?

Ralph is obviously sniping at someone when he says this.

[OpIv37]

You know, I think of Marv whenever I hear Ralph say that this team "just doesn't have the talent..."

I've heard Marv resigned/retired because he wasn't involved in day to to decisions or operations. He said he felt more like a figure head.

I wonder to what extent this is true.

And if so, how long does Modrak survive?

Ralph is obviously sniping at someone when he says this.

Modrak should have been axed with TD. This year is a perfect example why.

[Bill Cody]

Modrak should have been axed with TD. This year is a perfect example why.

The talent on the field is flat out more important than the coaching, which is saying something because coaching in the NFL is more important than in any other sport. I hate to say this, I mean I REALLY hate to say this, but Miami is on the way to the top in this league and it's because of Parcells. Look what he's accomplished in one short year, it's remarkable. That's 5 teams he's rebuilt from ashes. Parcells makes mistakes but he also makes some brilliant moves, Can Dick and MoDick say that?

[patmoran2006]

Both picks are disasters from 2006, I dont care what anybody says.

Look at this year's Pro Bowl roster, and look at two of the Bills biggest weaknesses; QB and center.

4 picks after Whitner went Cutler, a Pro Bowl QB.
4 picks after McCargo went Mangold, a Pro Bowl C

We suck at QB and C. Do you think we woudlnt be a playoff team had we pulled the trigger on Cutler and Mangold? Didn't Marv say in his book that the team is built around the QB first and then the center?

Cutler/Mangold <<<<<<<<< Whitner, McCargo ??

[OpIv37]

The talent on the field is flat out more important than the coaching, which is saying something because coaching in the NFL is more important than in any other sport. I hate to say this, I mean I REALLY hate to say this, but Miami is on the way to the top in this league and it's because of Parcells. Look what he's accomplished in one short year, it's remarkable. That's 5 teams he's rebuilt from ashes. Parcells makes mistakes but he also makes some brilliant moves, Can Dick and MoDick say that?

I think you need a good mix, but look at NE and SD. Good coaching makes NE better than the talent on the field, bad coaching makes SD worse than the coaching.

As far as Parcells, the man knows what he's doing, but I still say his role in life is to make Bills fans miserable. He always rebuilds AFCE teams other than the Bills or teams that beat Buffalo in the SB.

[gr8slayer]

Both picks are disasters from 2006, I dont care what anybody says.

Look at this year's Pro Bowl roster, and look at two of the Bills biggest weaknesses; QB and center.

4 picks after Whitner went Cutler, a Pro Bowl QB.
4 picks after McCargo went Mangold, a Pro Bowl C

We suck at QB and C. Do you think we woudlnt be a playoff team had we pulled the trigger on Cutler and Mangold? Didn't Marv say in his book that the team is built around the QB first and then the center?

Cutler/Mangold <<<<<<<<< Whitner, McCargo ??
Yeah, but are Cutler and Mangold the same players if they get drafted by the Bills? I'm more so talking about Cutler than Mangold, the Bills absolutely blow at drafting QB's.

[Historian]

I never liked him.

What was his guarantee this year?