"A Case for Dick Jauron"

[shelby]

That Dick Jauron has a contract extension to coach the Buffalo Bills for the next three years has been reported as fact in several media outlets. Jauron has never taken the time to deny it while the team has never confirmed it.
As a result, we're back where we've been all too frequently the last ten years. Debating the firing of the football coach, trying to believe it will automatically make things better.
Despite winning at Denver, Jauron hasn't had a great year and he'd be the first to tell you. That pass call late in the Jets game that JP Losman fumbled away and Jauron owned up to calling, conflicts in philosophy with his unwillingness to improve field position for kicker Rian Lindell, when he missed the game winning kick against Cleveland.

Those were the most glaring errors in the play call department that we are all so good at second guessing.
As much as it is a slave to turnovers and takeaways, the NFL has always been and will always be a quarterback league. You rise or fall on the play of the guy taking the snaps. When Buffalo got the quarterbacking, it won its games. When it didn't, it didn't.
Trent Edwards was great early, leading the Bills to four come from behind wins in the first six games. But he played just one effective game after the concussion in week five early at Arizona.
There are serious concerns here. Edwards slipped badly after leading the team to a 5-1 start. Maybe the defenses adjusted. Maybe the concussion has lasting effects. Maybe he just isn't as good as we thought he was. Whatever it is; whoever he is and is going to be, we need to find out.

Jauron has Edwards respect. Edwards has Jauron's backing. This coaching staff is in the best position to right what's wrong with this kid and determine how good he's going to be. And as the Bills head into another playoffless offseason, that has to be their first concern.


more.... (http://www.rnews.com/Sports/TopSports.cfm?cmd=top&ID=67987&rnews_story_type=78&category=3)

[Night Train]

Actually, the NFL will now and forever be a COACHES league, with the salary cap & free agency meaning roster turnover is 30-35 % every year.

The front office has NEVER been more important, which Ralph refuses to believe with his cut rate hires.

The Bills do have talent but continue to try & jam the square peg into the round hole.

Ralph doesn't need to overpay Kelsay, Dockery, Schobel etc. He NEEDS to overpay Cowher or another dynamic personality to define the entire organization. His return on that investment would be far more likely to succeed. He has to quit bringing up the TD era. It's a weak excuse that no longer carries weight. Proof is in the win column.

[jamze132]

So maybe we give Dickface one more year to right the ship and if he can't, there is a guy named Mike Holmgren who is taking a year off and might want to coach again... just saying...

We might as well come to the realization that Dick is going to be here. I have a hard time believing that the FO is going to start all over, again, right now. And if Ralphie is waiting until the outcome of the NE game to make a decision on Dick's future, he's an idiot. We never beat the Patriots so you can more than likely chalk up another 7-9 season for Dick. Threepeat!

[Typ0]

writer is right on. DJ has been working with a proven looser and a young kid here at QB and when the play was there so were the wins. He deserves another year instead of sinking this ship for drastic change at this point...but I've been writing this for months too.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Typo I just DO NOT SEE IT. I could be with you if he consistantly made solid decisions in game but he DOES NOT. He is horrible and clock management, half time adjustments, Challanges etc. I will be sick to my stomach if he sticks around.

[Typ0]

Actually, the NFL will now and forever be a COACHES league, with the salary cap & free agency meaning roster turnover is 30-35 % every year.

The front office has NEVER been more important, which Ralph refuses to believe with his cut rate hires.

The Bills do have talent but continue to try & jam the square peg into the round hole.

Ralph doesn't need to overpay Kelsay, Dockery, Schobel etc. He NEEDS to overpay Cowher or another dynamic personality to define the entire organization. His return on that investment would be far more likely to succeed. He has to quit bringing up the TD era. It's a weak excuse that no longer carries weight. Proof is in the win column.

name me one team that got bad QB play and has a winning record? you can't. it's a qb league. Teams don't get a chance to win if the qb plays poorly. NE is getting just average QB play this year and they are on the bubble. Miami is getting good QB play and they are from one win to the verge of the playoffs. Yes, coaching and the whole team is important...but the team still goes to way of the QB. It's time the $$$ were spent on getting a pass rush from the ends and better linebackers along with a good center and defensive tackle and some good depth on both lines. Do those things and get good QB play and we are in the playoffs we don't need a Cowher for that. Your hate for DJ has clouded your judgement this staff is better than you think and so is this team. With a good offseason we are ready to compete with a Brady led NE.

[Typ0]

Typo I just DO NOT SEE IT. I could be with you if he consistantly made solid decisions in game but he DOES NOT. He is horrible and clock management, half time adjustments, Challanges etc. I will be sick to my stomach if he sticks around.

sorry, I just don't agree but I see where you get that opinion. There have been mistakes yes but everyone makes mistakes and so does every hall of fame coach. This team is very young and the offense is complicated...if there is a mistake you have to point to the players being asked to do too much. But if you ask them to do too much you are asking them to grow as well and as time goes on they will grow into it and be much better for it. I also have seen challenges that I thought were good but were not overturned because the refs are idiots. I wish he was better in that area but luck just has not been on their side and every team needs some luck.

[ddaryl]

I've seen enough bumbling calls, clock management, gametime decisions, and the complete lack of using players on the roster

Even if Jauron gets us to the playoffs he is going to screw it up quickly and I would much rather bring in a new coach.

I seriously do not believe we have tear it all down just because we have a new coach...

and looking at Miami, they had a pretty nice 1 year turn around... One that makes me jealous

There is 0 reasons for keeping Jauron... He does not deserve another year, he has blundered his way through 3 half ass seasons and made many bad calls in that time.

[OpIv37]

But Jauron has brought dignity and respect back to the organization, the likes we haven't seen since Marv Levy, the man who hired him. His players by all accounts, believe in Jauron and stand by him. He gives the football team some continuity.

What dignity and respect? The dignity and respect that comes with losing seasons? With squandering a 5-1 record to end up at best 8-8, more likely 7-9? The dignity and respect that comes with scoring a mere 6 TOTAL points in back to back home games? The dignity and respect that comes with being 0-5 (most likely 0-6) in the division? The dignity and respect that comes with wasting time outs and challenges in almost every single game, sometimes multiple times in the same game? The dignity and respect that come with an all-time choke job loss to Dallas and getting completely blown out by NE, both on national TV? Seriously, this guy needs to elaborate because I have no idea what dignity and respect he's talking about. In fact, I think the selection of Jauron and Jauron's subsequent performance in Buffalo just prove how much of a joke this organization really is. As fans, we have to come to terms with the fact that we're East Cincinnati on the verge of becoming East Detroit.

As far as the second part- continuity and players believing him- well, those are nice things to have but they don't win football games. The goal is victories, not providing the players with a new best friend.

[Typ0]

What dignity and respect? The dignity and respect that comes with losing seasons? With squandering a 5-1 record to end up at best 8-8, more likely 7-9? The dignity and respect that comes with scoring a mere 6 TOTAL points in back to back home games? The dignity and respect that comes with being 0-5 (most likely 0-6) in the division? The dignity and respect that comes with wasting time outs and challenges in almost every single game, sometimes multiple times in the same game? The dignity and respect that come with an all-time choke job loss to Dallas and getting completely blown out by NE, both on national TV? Seriously, this guy needs to elaborate because I have no idea what dignity and respect he's talking about. In fact, I think the selection of Jauron and Jauron's subsequent performance in Buffalo just prove how much of a joke this organization really is. As fans, we have to come to terms with the fact that we're East Cincinnati on the verge of becoming East Detroit.

As far as the second part- continuity and players believing him- well, those are nice things to have but they don't win football games. The goal is victories, not providing the players with a new best friend.

dignity and respect is the maintenance of a winning attitude and culture despite hard times. Having a winning attitude does not necessarily mean you have a winning record there is a difference but it will translate into a winning record when things fall together.

[OpIv37]

dignity and respect is the maintenance of a winning attitude and culture despite hard times. Having a winning attitude does not necessarily mean you have a winning record there is a difference but it will translate into a winning record when things fall together.

When will things fall together? How many more years is that going to take? In 8 full seasons as a head coach, Jauron has ONE winning season (I'm even giving him the benefit of the doubt and not counting that limbo partial-year in Detroit against him). This isn't little league baseball. You don't get ice cream after the games for having a good attitude, and the losers don't get trophies.

[madness]

What dignity and respect? The dignity and respect that comes with losing seasons? With squandering a 5-1 record to end up at best 8-8, more likely 7-9? The dignity and respect that comes with scoring a mere 6 TOTAL points in back to back home games? The dignity and respect that comes with being 0-5 (most likely 0-6) in the division? The dignity and respect that comes with wasting time outs and challenges in almost every single game, sometimes multiple times in the same game? The dignity and respect that come with an all-time choke job loss to Dallas and getting completely blown out by NE, both on national TV? Seriously, this guy needs to elaborate because I have no idea what dignity and respect he's talking about. In fact, I think the selection of Jauron and Jauron's subsequent performance in Buffalo just prove how much of a joke this organization really is. As fans, we have to come to terms with the fact that we're East Cincinnati on the verge of becoming East Detroit.

As far as the second part- continuity and players believing him- well, those are nice things to have but they don't win football games. The goal is victories, not providing the players with a new best friend.

The words 'dignity' and 'respect' have nothing to do about winning or losing or how you manage a football game. Fans who try to tear down a man beyond his own known faults no matter how obvious they are or wish a person/owner to die just so a football team can get better probably lack either or both.

[Typ0]

When will things fall together? How many more years is that going to take? In 8 full seasons as a head coach, Jauron has ONE winning season (I'm even giving him the benefit of the doubt and not counting that limbo partial-year in Detroit against him). This isn't little league baseball. You don't get ice cream after the games for having a good attitude, and the losers don't get trophies.

things will fall together when they get consistent good play from the QB. I know I'm in the minority but I like the offense and see it failing when the QB stinks up the place and succeeding when the QB plays well. When JP plays the offense stinks all the time. When TE plays it stinks when we play better teams because he's not ready to execute it the way it's designed yet. He gets away with the lack of knowledge against weaker defenses but it doesn't wash against better ones.

[OpIv37]

The words 'dignity' and 'respect' have nothing to do about winning or losing or how you manage a football game. Fans who try to tear down a man beyond his own known faults no matter how obvious they are or wish a person/owner to die just so a football team can get better probably lack either or both.

You're simply wrong. The goal for a football team is to win football games. It's impossible for a football team to have dignity or win the respect of others when they constantly embarrass themselves on the football field. 10 straight losses to NE (a good portion of them blowouts) is embarrassing. Scoring 3 points in consecutive "home" games is embarrassing. Losing to Cleveland on national TV due to a barrage of turnovers is embarrassing. Choking against Dallas on national TV is embarrassing. Going 0-5 (likely 0-6) in the division is embarrassing. Beating only two teams with winning records in two whole seasons is embarrassing... need I continue?

Yes, maybe they have "dignity and respect" in their personal conduct on and off the field, but Jauron's position is "Head Coach", not "Scoutmaster." He's supposed to win football games, not create a bunch of model citizens. The fundamental purpose of this organization is to play football, and there is no way this team could possibly have dignity and respect for their performance during Jauron's tenure.

[Typ0]

The words 'dignity' and 'respect' have nothing to do about winning or losing...

I disagree. They might not be the most important thing on the micro week to week basis of winning and losing...but building a long term winning culture is going to require dignity and respect for all the components. When people feel like they are part of something bigger and more worthwhile than what they are individually capable of they are able to achieve greater than the sum of the parts.

[OpIv37]

things will fall together when they get consistent good play from the QB. I know I'm in the minority but I like the offense and see it failing when the QB stinks up the place and succeeding when the QB plays well. When JP plays the offense stinks all the time. When TE plays it stinks when we play better teams because he's not ready to execute it the way it's designed yet. He gets away with the lack of knowledge against weaker defenses but it doesn't wash against better ones.

No doubt QB play holds this team back, but do you honestly think Cowher or Bellicheck would have lost the SF, Cleveland or Jets game? I think better coaching wins at least 2 of those three, probably all 3.

[Typ0]

You're simply wrong. The goal for a football team is to win football games. It's impossible for a football team to have dignity or win the respect of others when they constantly embarrass themselves on the football field. 10 straight losses to NE (a good portion of them blowouts) is embarrassing. Scoring 3 points in consecutive "home" games is embarrassing. Losing to Cleveland on national TV due to a barrage of turnovers is embarrassing. Choking against Dallas on national TV is embarrassing. Going 0-5 (likely 0-6) in the division is embarrassing. Beating only two teams with winning records in two whole seasons is embarrassing... need I continue?

Yes, maybe they have "dignity and respect" in their personal conduct on and off the field, but Jauron's position is "Head Coach", not "Scoutmaster." He's supposed to win football games, not create a bunch of model citizens. The fundamental purpose of this organization is to play football, and there is no way this team could possibly have dignity and respect for their performance during Jauron's tenure.

no, dignity and respect is the abiliity to come out the following week and overcome those shortcommings and put things together and start to do well. Teams without it fall apart and roll over and die. Take a look a the Lions. And the people there do not believe they are able to win under the current circumstances.

[Typ0]

No doubt QB play holds this team back, but do you honestly think Cowher or Bellicheck would have lost the SF, Cleveland or Jets game? I think better coaching wins at least 2 of those three, probably all 3.


I don't know and have no way to test your theory. Nor do I believe we are ever going to bring that type of coach here with RW running the show. Hence, we should give this staff another shot it's too early to blow everything up and start over again that cycle has played itself to death at this point and I see opportunities for these guys to grow together with the players and enjoy some success.

[Owen DeBoard]

name me one team that got bad QB play and has a winning record? you can't. it's a qb league. Teams don't get a chance to win if the qb plays poorly. NE is getting just average QB play this year and they are on the bubble. Miami is getting good QB play and they are from one win to the verge of the playoffs. Yes, coaching and the whole team is important...but the team still goes to way of the QB. It's time the $$$ were spent on getting a pass rush from the ends and better linebackers along with a good center and defensive tackle and some good depth on both lines. Do those things and get good QB play and we are in the playoffs we don't need a Cowher for that. Your hate for DJ has clouded your judgement this staff is better than you think and so is this team. With a good offseason we are ready to compete with a Brady led NE.
Ok you ready for this how about the Chicago Bears with Rex Grossman at qb in 2006 that went to the superbowl. They rode the special teams and defense to the superbowl that year not the qb.

[Typ0]

Ok you ready for this how about the Chicago Bears with Rex Grossman at qb in 2006 that went to the superbowl. They rode the special teams and defense to the superbowl that year not the qb.

Grossman had well above average, top five in the league performances, in half the games that year. In the weeks he sucked and threw the ball away or put it on the ground they lost. Incidently, that is exactly what happened in the SB...he turned the ball over and they lost. The team as a whole played consistently well all year. When the QB production was there they got wins. When the QB production was poor or negative they lost. Thank you for making my point.

[yordad]

I'll make a case for DJ. Simpson, Denney, Kelsey, Ellison, Royal, McIntyre, Fowler/Preston...... About 1/3 of the players who started a majority of the year were amongst the worst starters at their position in the entire league.

[Typ0]

definately a lot of average and below average NFL players on our depth chart...and a cash to the crap philosophy to keep that going. I would love to see what plugging Jeff Garcia into this offense would do though. I see a lot of good things in TE and I see he can do the things well he's struggled with because he's done it. But there are two things I'm concerned about with TE it's his durability and his warm up procedures. He just plain starts slow every time and he's never really shown signs of breaking that mold. He's got to figure out how to warm up and play the first series of downs like the last. A good team they might give you that one time opportunity in the first quarter and you have to take advantage of it to get to the next level. I would think DJ is smart enough to sit him for a season if we can get Garcia in here and he can't turn this around.

[OpIv37]

no, dignity and respect is the abiliity to come out the following week and overcome those shortcommings and put things together and start to do well. Teams without it fall apart and roll over and die. Take a look a the Lions. And the people there do not believe they are able to win under the current circumstances.

We are 0-5 in the division. We lost home games to Miami, SF and Cleveland. We started 4-0 then went 2-8 over the next 10. If that's not rolling over and dying, what is? This team couldn't even win until they were officially eliminated from the playoffs.

[Jan Reimers]

I wouldn't mind seeing Jauron and all of his strengths in the FO, although probably not in the GM role. But he is such a poor strategist and game manager that I don't think he can be trusted to lead us as head coach, despite his player relationships, etc.

[Owen DeBoard]

Grossman had well above average, top five in the league performances, in half the games that year. In the weeks he sucked and threw the ball away or put it on the ground they lost. Incidently, that is exactly what happened in the SB...he turned the ball over and they lost. The team as a whole played consistently well all year. When the QB production was there they got wins. When the QB production was poor or negative they lost. Thank you for making my point.
How can you call a 73.9 percent qb rating 199.6 yards a game 23 tds to 20 ints sacked 21 times fumbled 7 times and lost 5 of them above average. I think bears fans would tell you that Grossman rode the coatails of special teams and defense to the superbowl not his qb play. Thank you for making my point.

[Owen DeBoard]

definately a lot of average and below average NFL players on our depth chart...and a cash to the crap philosophy to keep that going. I would love to see what plugging Jeff Garcia into this offense would do though. I see a lot of good things in TE and I see he can do the things well he's struggled with because he's done it. But there are two things I'm concerned about with TE it's his durability and his warm up procedures. He just plain starts slow every time and he's never really shown signs of breaking that mold. He's got to figure out how to warm up and play the first series of downs like the last. A good team they might give you that one time opportunity in the first quarter and you have to take advantage of it to get to the next level. I would think DJ is smart enough to sit him for a season if we can get Garcia in here and he can't turn this around.
I think I would rather have a qb that starts slow and always gives you a chance to win in the 4th quarter (as long as the coaching doesnt blow it). Its not how you start but how you finish.

[X-Era]

Typo I just DO NOT SEE IT. I could be with you if he consistantly made solid decisions in game but he DOES NOT. He is horrible and clock management, half time adjustments, Challanges etc. I will be sick to my stomach if he sticks around.
So, Im on the fence on this one.

The point of the article is that tearing down the team under some new coach may not make us better in the long run (depending on who we chose) and certianly will make us worse in the short term.

The article is right that he has the team behind him. They have pulled together behind the scenes like no Bills team since the SB runs. That says alot.

Why is it not just as smart to simply get new highly touted coords? Especially on D?

Jauron then could take a lesser role on gameday (a good thing), we get better schematically, and improve our ability to draw in better talent.

If Ralph is true to his word, he may be thinking about some serious players heading into Buffalo. My gut says dont trust it, but who knows.

Look, Jauron should begone tomorrow if we were serious about getting guys like Cowher, or Homgren.... maybe even Billick. But, thats not our style and we ought to all know it by now.

At that point, why suffer for 2 years as we rebuild yet again under some new guy only to possibly learn that hes not good enough either.

Jauron has done some things that we havent seen since Marv, he has got the best out of players that arent great and the team has unity that we havent seen in a long time.

Im leaning toward saying we should only cut him if we are going to get Cowher, Holmgren, or maybe Billick. Anything less isnt worth the risk.

[justasportsfan]

Typo I just DO NOT SEE IT. I could be with you if he consistantly made solid decisions in game but he DOES NOT. He is horrible and clock management, half time adjustments, Challanges etc. I will be sick to my stomach if he sticks around.
typo is the poster child of a bills fan accepting mediocrity. He blames the qbs but forgets who chose the qbs and all the crappy OC's Dick's had as a HC. We could lose all our division games and yet Typo thinks thats a winning culture.


Marv put the team in the right track and Dick screwed it all up by picking Turk. Dick may be a HC who can take a team to the playoffs but he isn't a coach who can take us to the sb. He's a great player motivator but he needs a proven OC , then again any proven OC may be more qualified to run the team.

This is the AFCE. It's a tough division and if we can't even beat crappy teams like the browns , I don't think he can outsmart any of the coaches in the AFCE especially when they start retooling the next few years.

[OpIv37]

Im leaning toward saying we should only cut him if we are going to get Cowher, Holmgren, or maybe Billick. Anything less isnt worth the risk.

I agree with this, but I'll expand the list some:

Cowher, Holmgren, Reid, Schottenheimer, maybe Billick.

There is no point to firing Jauron and bringing in someone else who is just as mediocre. That's why we've been spinning our wheels since Marv left. Hell, we fired Wade then over the next 8 years or so, proceeded to hire 3 head coaches who aren't even as good as Wade.

If we're going to hire someone else who's just as bad, there really is no point to firing Jauron. That won't lead to wins. But neither will staying with Jauron. Ralph really needs to step up and find a REAL HC or else this team is East Detroit.

[mchurchfie]

The only case for Jauron that I want to see is a suitcase.

[shelby]

Y'all can express your opinions in the poll on our front page...

www.billszone.com ...on the left side of the page!

[Owen DeBoard]

The only case for Jauron that I want to see is a suitcase.:lmao:

[trapezeus]

the fact all our losses come against 3-4 defenses makes me weary that coaching doesn't know how to gameplan around it. i think they make our players ineffective.

Everyone talks about lee evans around the league as being good, but they seem genuinely surprised that he can't be made into more than what he is.

There is no other team that would allow a 5-1 team to go 7-9 and not fire the coach. they would not allow two back to back 3 point home games against defenses that have given up a whole lot more. No one would put up with a monday night loss against a rookie QB on the road. They wouldn't put up with wasted time outs. They wouldn't put up with running A train and sitting fred jackson for a year. They wouldn't put up with tryin ghardy when Johnson was ready. They wouldn't allow any one of those thing. We've let them all happen and we're suppose to wait and see if we bring them back.

I'm not getting tickets next year. i'm watching on TV all season. It's too much irritation to be traveling around for this mess.

[X-Era]

Y'all can express your opinions in the poll on our front page...

www.billszone.com (http://www.billszone.com) ...on the left side of the page!

Thats great, but the question asks what we think will happen, not what we want to happen.

Being a Bills fan, you know that there is a significant difference between what we want and what they do!

[elltrain22]

Good article, and you really make some good points, but it doesn't change the fact that "the dick" can't coach, can't draft, can't develop talent, can't build depth at key positions, sticks w/ inept talent way-too long out of loyalty, has a piss poor staff (cept for April-who wasn't even his hire), has poor clock management, poor decision making (exp- challenge flags), poor adjustments (especially at critical junctures), and on and on....

I agree w/ your statement that success is very depentdant upon your QB. Forgive me if I don't get your whole hearted point, but you make it sound like your QB has to be pretty good in order for you win games. Well, what about Jeff Garcia, Jake Delhomme, Kerry Collins, Chad Pennington, and Joe Flacco just to name a few. These guys don't suck or anything, but they are not at the tip of your tongue when ya talk about great NFL qb's. What about those great QB's whose teams suck: Drew Brees, Donovan McNabb, and Jay Cutler??

Success isn't qb'ing; it's a great start to success, but it's not the end all be all of a team. Success is philosophy, consistency, accountability, management, attention-to-detail, cohesion, and trust. DJ and his staff have very little of these qualities, it's time we try to bring in a new HC that can instill some of this into this organization. We certainly deserve better.

[madness]

You're simply wrong. The goal for a football team is to win football games. It's impossible for a football team to have dignity or win the respect of others when they constantly embarrass themselves on the football field. 10 straight losses to NE (a good portion of them blowouts) is embarrassing. Scoring 3 points in consecutive "home" games is embarrassing. Losing to Cleveland on national TV due to a barrage of turnovers is embarrassing. Choking against Dallas on national TV is embarrassing. Going 0-5 (likely 0-6) in the division is embarrassing. Beating only two teams with winning records in two whole seasons is embarrassing... need I continue?

Yes, maybe they have "dignity and respect" in their personal conduct on and off the field, but Jauron's position is "Head Coach", not "Scoutmaster." He's supposed to win football games, not create a bunch of model citizens. The fundamental purpose of this organization is to play football, and there is no way this team could possibly have dignity and respect for their performance during Jauron's tenure.

Winning brings dignity and respect? How you win or lose reveals dignity and respect. If a team plays hard to the very end in a loss or a winning team respects their opponent by not rubbing the loss in.

Where did the Cowboys dignity and respect go when they started losing? They never had it and it was only a matter of time before all their superficial ego's melted down. How about the Patriots? Did all their winning mask their cheating and total disregard for respect of their opponents?

[madness]

name me one team that got bad QB play and has a winning record? you can't. it's a qb league. Teams don't get a chance to win if the qb plays poorly. NE is getting just average QB play this year and they are on the bubble. Miami is getting good QB play and they are from one win to the verge of the playoffs. Yes, coaching and the whole team is important...but the team still goes to way of the QB. It's time the $$$ were spent on getting a pass rush from the ends and better linebackers along with a good center and defensive tackle and some good depth on both lines. Do those things and get good QB play and we are in the playoffs we don't need a Cowher for that. Your hate for DJ has clouded your judgement this staff is better than you think and so is this team. With a good offseason we are ready to compete with a Brady led NE.

Totally on point. Throw in teams like the Cowboys and Jets and look at the specific times they faultered. The SB Giants pass rush was dominate all year long but they didn't step up until Manning started playing like his brother. Poor teams like SF and KC actually stayed in games and won some once they got better QB play. Talent has to perform first before coaches can become a factor in a win or loss. That being said, you obviously still need talent around the QB on both sides of the ball.

I wouldn't be too beat up if DJ gets canned and we have start over... again, but QB history does have an impact on his poor record.

[Typ0]

How can you call a 73.9 percent qb rating 199.6 yards a game 23 tds to 20 ints sacked 21 times fumbled 7 times and lost 5 of them above average. I think bears fans would tell you that Grossman rode the coatails of special teams and defense to the superbowl not his qb play. Thank you for making my point.


you can't just throw all the statistics together to make your point like this. RG had seven or eight games with a passer rating over 100 with very few turnovers. He had around five where he was horrible and i think once had a zero passer rating. You put all that together and it makes exactly my point. When Grossman played well they won and they won enough times to get to the superbowl. When he played like crap they lost and it resulted in the stats you cite. Bears fans would be wrong they did not win in spite of RG bad quarterbacking they lost every time he stunk up the joint...they would more likely say they prayed every week he wouldn't stink up the joint so the rest of the team could help them win. It still makes my point that when the QB stinks the wins don't come.

[Nighthawk]

I'm sorry, but this guy is smoking something! All everybody needs to know is that Dickey has ONE winning season in 9 years of HC experience. Umm, that speaks loud and clear!

[Nighthawk]

Totally on point. Throw in teams like the Cowboys and Jets and look at the specific times they faultered. The SB Giants pass rush was dominate all year long but they didn't step up until Manning started playing like his brother. Poor teams like SF and KC actually stayed in games and won some once they got better QB play. Talent has to perform first before coaches can become a factor in a win or loss. That being said, you obviously still need talent around the QB on both sides of the ball.

I wouldn't be too beat up if DJ gets canned and we have start over... again, but QB history does have an impact on his poor record.

Really? So Belichek should be using this excuse this year...however, he isn't and he keeps winning because he is a good coach! Jauron never has been and never will be. If Jauron stays, the Bills will lose a lot of ticket buyers.

[OpIv37]

Winning brings dignity and respect? How you win or lose reveals dignity and respect. If a team plays hard to the very end in a loss or a winning team respects their opponent by not rubbing the loss in.

Where did the Cowboys dignity and respect go when they started losing? They never had it and it was only a matter of time before all their superficial ego's melted down. How about the Patriots? Did all their winning mask their cheating and total disregard for respect of their opponents?

I disagree. No one is going to give you dignity or respect when you can only score 3 points at home. No one is going to give you dignity or respect when you consistently lose in heartbreaking fashion on national TV. I could keep going but I already gave you the list.

Even when we were winning, this board was loaded with complaints about not having respect from the media.

So, I really don't see it. We're not a bunch of thugs like the Bengals- so what? That doesn't automatically make people respect us. This organization sucks at it's main purpose, which is to win football games. There's no dignity or respect in that whatsoever.

[HHURRICANE]

Unless the Bills are bringing in Shottenheimer or Cowher the Bills risk more by changing coaches than keeping the status quo.

If Jauron had DEs that could get to the QB, a real Center, a #2 WR, and some LB depth than firing him would make total sense.

Add the fact that he had a kicker miss a game winning FG, and an idiot QB fumble a ball after not getting rid of it.

If you think Jim Haslett is the answer than you didn't watch him coach the Saints. He sucked. Good coordinators don't always make great coaches either.

Crennel and the long list of other loser HCs that were "great" coordinators.

[Nighthawk]

There is NO case for keeping Jauron. Everybody knows what they have in him...a loser who doesn't win and will never get this team to the playoffs. However, even if you bring in an inexperienced HC, there still is a 50-50 chance he turns out to be good. That is a hell of a lot better then the 100% certainty that Jauron will be mediocre. I'll take my chances!

[HHURRICANE]

There is NO case for keeping Jauron. Everybody knows what they have in him...a loser who doesn't win and will never get this team to the playoffs. However, even if you bring in an inexperienced HC, there still is a 50-50 chance he turns out to be good. That is a hell of a lot better then the 100% certainty that Jauron will be mediocre. I'll take my chances!

Your entitled to your opinion but be when you get Mike Mularkey II don't tell me that I didn't tell you so.

[Nighthawk]

Your entitled to your opinion but be when you get Mike Mularkey II don't tell me that I didn't tell you so.

I'm not afraid of change, I'm afraid of the status quo! We KNOW Jauron is one of the worst HC in the history of the NFL. Nobody knows what the next guy might be. It's really not a hard concept.

[HHURRICANE]

I'm not afraid of change, I'm afraid of the status quo! We KNOW Jauron is one of the worst HC in the history of the NFL. Nobody knows what the next guy might be. It's really not a hard concept.


He's better than Mularkey and Williams. Hell, look at the fine job that's being done in Dallas with a much better roster. He might be the best coach out of the last 5.

Again, unless we are bringing in a proven winner than I 'd rather focus on improving the roster.

[Owen DeBoard]

you can't just throw all the statistics together to make your point like this. RG had seven or eight games with a passer rating over 100 with very few turnovers. He had around five where he was horrible and i think once had a zero passer rating. You put all that together and it makes exactly my point. When Grossman played well they won and they won enough times to get to the superbowl. When he played like crap they lost and it resulted in the stats you cite. Bears fans would be wrong they did not win in spite of RG bad quarterbacking they lost every time he stunk up the joint...they would more likely say they prayed every week he wouldn't stink up the joint so the rest of the team could help them win. It still makes my point that when the QB stinks the wins don't come.
For one all those stats are for the 16 games in 2006. So you mean to tell me the only reason why the bears won and lost that year is because of how Grossman played? Give me a freakin break I live near Chicago so I see all the games or hear the radio shows talk about them. He could play a horrible game and the special teams and the defense can bail him out and turn it into a W just like any other team. Your point makes absolutey no sense.

[Owen DeBoard]

Unless the Bills are bringing in Shottenheimer or Cowher the Bills risk more by changing coaches than keeping the status quo.

If Jauron had DEs that could get to the QB, a real Center, a #2 WR, and some LB depth than firing him would make total sense.

Add the fact that he had a kicker miss a game winning FG, and an idiot QB fumble a ball after not getting rid of it.

If you think Jim Haslett is the answer than you didn't watch him coach the Saints. He sucked. Good coordinators don't always make great coaches either.

Crennel and the long list of other loser HCs that were "great" coordinators.
Jauron could have all that and it dont change the way he prepares the team, calls a game, and makes halftime adjustments.

[jamze132]

Typo I just DO NOT SEE IT. I could be with you if he consistantly made solid decisions in game but he DOES NOT. He is horrible and clock management, half time adjustments, Challanges etc. I will be sick to my stomach if he sticks around.
I'm willing to bet after this debacle that he created, he doesn't make the same type of mistakes over and over again next year.

My thing is if EVERY player in the locker room is 100% behind Dick, they are going to play for him. Ralphie can't ignore this and he knows someone is going to get shafted and it's more than likely going to be the fans. All we can hope is that every player on the roster plays harder next year knowing that Dick has one more chance to right the ship.

[PECKERWOOD]

So, Im on the fence on this one.

The point of the article is that tearing down the team under some new coach may not make us better in the long run (depending on who we chose) and certianly will make us worse in the short term.

The article is right that he has the team behind him. They have pulled together behind the scenes like no Bills team since the SB runs. That says alot.

Why is it not just as smart to simply get new highly touted coords? Especially on D?

Jauron then could take a lesser role on gameday (a good thing), we get better schematically, and improve our ability to draw in better talent.

If Ralph is true to his word, he may be thinking about some serious players heading into Buffalo. My gut says dont trust it, but who knows.

Look, Jauron should begone tomorrow if we were serious about getting guys like Cowher, or Homgren.... maybe even Billick. But, thats not our style and we ought to all know it by now.

At that point, why suffer for 2 years as we rebuild yet again under some new guy only to possibly learn that hes not good enough either.

Jauron has done some things that we havent seen since Marv, he has got the best out of players that arent great and the team has unity that we havent seen in a long time.

Im leaning toward saying we should only cut him if we are going to get Cowher, Holmgren, or maybe Billick. Anything less isnt worth the risk.


I like Billick... He is a players coach but at the time he is a winner too, we've been lacking credibility here in Buffalo for a while. I like the idea of a HC who likes to shop for his groceries as well, keep Modrak on board as our scout but let's find a credible HC who has the final say when it comes to FA and drafting players. It's funny though because both me and you have started to wise up a little. When I first started out here we were both amongst the optimistic posters on this board but my heart tells me that your post is true. If Dick Jauron gets canned then we will probably just sign some other unknown scrub and if that's the case then we might as well just keep Dick around.

[Typ0]

For one all those stats are for the 16 games in 2006. So you mean to tell me the only reason why the bears won and lost that year is because of how Grossman played? Give me a freakin break I live near Chicago so I see all the games or hear the radio shows talk about them. He could play a horrible game and the special teams and the defense can bail him out and turn it into a W just like any other team. Your point makes absolutey no sense.


why don't you post the game by game stats if you want to make your point. Those stats are averages for the 16 games and none of his games fell on the average. If you don't understand what I'm saying look up normal distribution and outliers on the internet and get a lesson that way.

[DynaPaul]

My 2 cents: Jauron is a proven loser. Why would we give him another year to right the ship? The guy has never won anything. Time to cut our losses as history repeats itself.

[Nighthawk]

I'm willing to bet after this debacle that he created, he doesn't make the same type of mistakes over and over again next year.

My thing is if EVERY player in the locker room is 100% behind Dick, they are going to play for him. Ralphie can't ignore this and he knows someone is going to get shafted and it's more than likely going to be the fans. All we can hope is that every player on the roster plays harder next year knowing that Dick has one more chance to right the ship.

So by your philosophy, the players didn't play hard during the collapse at the end of the season? What does that say for Jauron? I really don't care if they play hard, they should play hard all the time. The good coaches in this league don't go around stating how hard their teams played! They talk about what they need to do to win games! What the players think really doesn't matter since they have yet to have a winning season with him as HC.

[Nighthawk]

why don't you post the game by game stats if you want to make your point. Those stats are averages for the 16 games and none of his games fell on the average. If you don't understand what I'm saying look up normal distribution and outliers on the internet and get a lesson that way.

The only stat needed to discredit your arguement is the stat that Dickey has ONE winning season in 9 years of HC experience. That's it...that's all...nothing else matters!

[acehole]

I'm not afraid of change, I'm afraid of the status quo! We KNOW Jauron is one of the worst HC in the history of the NFL. Nobody knows what the next guy might be. It's really not a hard concept.

Would the case for dick juron have a lock on it?

Cause I am for that........

Trent and him are tied at the hip ....what do you do with that?

[HHURRICANE]

Would the case for dick juron have a lock on it?

Cause I am for that........

Trent and him are tied at the hip ....what do you do with that?

Yeah, Trent won't play for another coach.

[jamze132]

So by your philosophy, the players didn't play hard during the collapse at the end of the season? What does that say for Jauron? I really don't care if they play hard, they should play hard all the time. The good coaches in this league don't go around stating how hard their teams played! They talk about what they need to do to win games! What the players think really doesn't matter since they have yet to have a winning season with him as HC.
We are currently in "then end of the season" and the players are playing hard. Did they play hard in the middle? No they didn't for whatever reason. I think they were over confident for one. Stop trying to nitpick everyone's opinions.

[Typ0]

The only stat needed to discredit your arguement is the stat that Dickey has ONE winning season in 9 years of HC experience. That's it...that's all...nothing else matters!


and all the QBs he's been stuck with (he never picked his own until TE) how many have quarterbacked teams to winning seasons when they weren't with DJ? I can't think of any that ever went to the playoffs.

[OpIv37]

and all the QBs he's been stuck with (he never picked his own until TE) how many have quarterbacked teams to winning seasons when they weren't with DJ? I can't think of any that ever went to the playoffs.

Quarterbacks don't waste timeouts every single game. QB's don't have half the D playing out of position. QB's don't make the play calls that lost the Dallas game last year, the Cleveland and NYJ games this year, etc. QB's don't run weak training camps or let the team practice inside even though they suck in bad weather or call conservative, chicken-**** play calls in the red zone.... I could keep going but I think you get the point.

And let's not forget that Jauron has never had a D in the top 10 either, which is another reason why his record is so bad. That can't be blamed on the QB play.

Yes, our QB's have sucked for Jauron's entire tenure in Buffalo, save a brief stretch at the start of the season. But the fallacy in your argument is that you're assuming it's EITHER coaching OR QB. The reality is that it's both.

[Nighthawk]

We are currently in "then end of the season" and the players are playing hard. Did they play hard in the middle? No they didn't for whatever reason. I think they were over confident for one. Stop trying to nitpick everyone's opinions.

Oh, so them not playing hard during the losing stretch was not a direct result of Jauron's coaching, but them playing hard last game was? Umm, your arguement is a bad one.

[Nighthawk]

and all the QBs he's been stuck with (he never picked his own until TE) how many have quarterbacked teams to winning seasons when they weren't with DJ? I can't think of any that ever went to the playoffs.

So, what's your excuse for Belichek being able to take what is basically a HS QB and turn him into a very nice player? They didn't use it as an excuse, but you seem to think that it's Ok for Dickey to use it? Man, you're reaching...

[Nighthawk]

Quarterbacks don't waste timeouts every single game. QB's don't have half the D playing out of position. QB's don't make the play calls that lost the Dallas game last year, the Cleveland and NYJ games this year, etc. QB's don't run weak training camps or let the team practice inside even though they suck in bad weather or call conservative, chicken-**** play calls in the red zone.... I could keep going but I think you get the point.

And let's not forget that Jauron has never had a D in the top 10 either, which is another reason why his record is so bad. That can't be blamed on the QB play.

Yes, our QB's have sucked for Jauron's entire tenure in Buffalo, save a brief stretch at the start of the season. But the fallacy in your argument is that you're assuming it's EITHER coaching OR QB. The reality is that it's both.

He really doesn't get it and only has one excuse for Dickey and it is pretty funny. Sometimes I wonder why people even waste time trying to argue with him!

[Owen DeBoard]

why don't you post the game by game stats if you want to make your point. Those stats are averages for the 16 games and none of his games fell on the average. If you don't understand what I'm saying look up normal distribution and outliers on the internet and get a lesson that way.
The lesson im trying to get from you (which I wont) is that if a qb plays bad like Grossman did (turning the ball over 4 times in the first half) in the Arizona game where Dennis Green lost it I do believe that special teams and defense pulled that game out because Hester returned a touchdown on a punt return and if im not wrong their was also 2 TDs from the defense. Now you said that if a qb plays bad then they have no chance of winning right?

[jamze132]

Oh, so them not playing hard during the losing stretch was not a direct result of Jauron's coaching, but them playing hard last game was? Umm, your arguement is a bad one.
You're not listening. Big shocker there...

No one in the BZ knows all of the exact reasons for the Bills sucking in the middle of the season. It appears that they are playing harder as of late for fear that their coach might be fired. That's all I'm saying. If you want to argue about anything else because someone doesn't share the same opinion with you feel free, I'm done arguing.

BTW, if you do a search, you will find probably 100 posts by me that claim I want Dickface fired...

[Typ0]

my point was you said I asserted a 74% passer rating was above average and I said nothing of the sort. What I said was when his performance was above average they won and when it wasn't they lost...I guess if you want to throw in a few games when they were playing horrible teams that struggled to win games and grossman also performed poorly yet they won you can try and make that point you are trying to make but it still isn't valid IMO. Six times in that year his passer rating was below his own average and they beat minnesota twice and arizona once and lost to miami, new england and green bay (all three of their losses by the way). When RG passer rating was below 80 they were able to beat teams that were a combined 17-31 & lost to teams that were a combined 26 - 22 with Miami being the only team they lost to with a losing record. Half the games they played his rating was above 100 and they won all those games. I never said Grossman played above average that whole season and was responsible for their wins...what I said was when he played horribly they didn't win the games. I guess I was wrong because half of those games they won and no doubt defense and special teams won those games but if it had happened against better teams they would not have won. Also, their schedule was very easy that year. I don't really think you refuted my point and this may be the only example from my lifetime that could even be cited. I can think of teams that had stronger defenses that helped them win but they still got quarterbacking that at least didn't shoot them in the foot.

[X-Era]

I like Billick... He is a players coach but at the time he is a winner too, we've been lacking credibility here in Buffalo for a while. I like the idea of a HC who likes to shop for his groceries as well, keep Modrak on board as our scout but let's find a credible HC who has the final say when it comes to FA and drafting players. It's funny though because both me and you have started to wise up a little. When I first started out here we were both amongst the optimistic posters on this board but my heart tells me that your post is true. If Dick Jauron gets canned then we will probably just sign some other unknown scrub and if that's the case then we might as well just keep Dick around.

Thats exactly it.

This whole thing, offseason, draft, etc... is about getting significantly better. Its about breaking free from the mediocrity. Right now the team is at rest, they are skating along at a perpetual level of mediocrity. It will take an overwhelming force to move them up to a playoff team. To do that, we need to play every card possible.

Removing Dick and then signing a scurb does nothing but set us back 2 years until the team is built to the new style and the players finally get it.

However, a true coach with a pedigree can get the team to play top notch quicker.

IMO, out of: talent level, front office, owner, and head coach two of those at least need a significant upgrade or we stay stuck where we are.

Unlike some, I dont think it really matters much where you make the big upgrade out of the 4. Heres an example:

Cowher + great front office = playoffs even at our current talent level and with Ralph

Change of owner + front office (as long as they are upgrades) = playoffs, maybe just a bit slower, when we spend more, and draft better

And yes, I think Dick + much better talent + a better front office = playoffs

We cant single out just one component and say thats alll that needs to be drastically upgraded, its just not enough. We have to look at all the variable and upgrade several pieces.

[FinFaninBuffalo]

All you have to do is look around the league. How many teams do you think get outcoached by the Bills? Seriously, do you have any confidence that games against teams with superior talent can be overcome because of the Bills coaching staff?

Several rookie head coaches around the league have significantly fielded teams that are significantly more prepared than the Bills, including Tony Sparano, Mike Smith, and John Harbaugh. Smith and Harbaugh are doing it with rookie QBs.

Since I'm a fan of the Fins, I follow them more closely. Here are some of my observations about Sparano's approach that contrasts with Jauron:

1. Sparano brought in experienced coordinators. Neither was in the NFL last year, so I doubt they are highly paid.
2. Sparano stresses fundamentals. As a result, the team makes few mistakes. They have a chance to break the record for fewest turnovers in a season.
3. Sparano is not afraid to play less well know players. He has rotated in offensive linemen all season long. As a result, injuries to the OL have hurt less than in previous seasons. They have played a huge number of players in the secondary this year. Role players (Patrick Cobbs, Charlie Anderson, Nate Jones, Joey Haynos, Lou Polite) have all made contributions this year.
4. He recognized early on that the team was in need of a spark. He and his coaching staff came up with the wildcat to help jump start the team before they got too far behind.
5. They don't win pretty, but he puts his players in a position to win. He also does not accept underperforming. You play well or you don't play.

I have no delusions about the Fins being a super talented team. IMO, the talent level is similar to the Bills, yet the Fins have a chance to win the division this year. Unlike the Bills, they turned over nearly 50% of the roster in the offseason, hired an entire new organization, new offensive and defensive schemes, etc, etc.

IMO, it all points to better coaching.

[X-Era]

All you have to do is look around the league. How many teams do you think get outcoached by the Bills? Seriously, do you have any confidence that games against teams with superior talent can be overcome because of the Bills coaching staff?

Several rookie head coaches around the league have significantly fielded teams that are significantly more prepared than the Bills, including Tony Sparano, Mike Smith, and John Harbaugh. Smith and Harbaugh are doing it with rookie QBs.

Since I'm a fan of the Fins, I follow them more closely. Here are some of my observations about Sparano's approach that contrasts with Jauron:

1. Sparano brought in experienced coordinators. Neither was in the NFL last year, so I doubt they are highly paid.
2. Sparano stresses fundamentals. As a result, the team makes few mistakes. They have a chance to break the record for fewest turnovers in a season.
3. Sparano is not afraid to play less well know players. He has rotated in offensive linemen all season long. As a result, injuries to the OL have hurt less than in previous seasons. They have played a huge number of players in the secondary this year. Role players (Patrick Cobbs, Charlie Anderson, Nate Jones, Joey Haynos, Lou Polite) have all made contributions this year.
4. He recognized early on that the team was in need of a spark. He and his coaching staff came up with the wildcat to help jump start the team before they got too far behind.
5. They don't win pretty, but he puts his players in a position to win. He also does not accept underperforming. You play well or you don't play.

I have no delusions about the Fins being a super talented team. IMO, the talent level is similar to the Bills, yet the Fins have a chance to win the division this year. Unlike the Bills, they turned over nearly 50% of the roster in the offseason, hired an entire new organization, new offensive and defensive schemes, etc, etc.

IMO, it all points to better coaching.
1st, Sparano has some guy named Bill Parcells in the front office. Not sure who he is or if anyone respect him or not.

2nd, Harbaugh has the #2 defense in the league. Any head coach could field a competitive team with a defense that good.

3rd, Mike Smith has a team with decent talent and a fantastic RB. They are the sleeper this year, every year has one. Can they do it again next year or will they falter like the Browns? We will have to see.

You did a good job making my point actually:

Fins: stellar FO = decent shot at the playoffs
Ravens: Stellar talent on D = decent team with a shot
ATL: This years sleeper, maybe Smith turns out to be a great HC, the next few years will tell.

If you or anyone else thinks THIS TEAM can find some sleeper newbie coach and turn this ship around into a playoff team real soon, you have obviously not followed this team. That is NOT the easiest way to do it, it is NOT even a likely way to do it, in fact its the LEAST possible, MOST unlikely, and MOST difficult way for this team to proceed.

For the life of me, I will never figure out why people want to try to go the hard route over and over, fail, fail because the odds were so stacked against us, and then complain to make changes... only to argue that we should take the same unlikely approach all over again.

Forget football, just play the lottery, your chances are probably better to get a winner that way.

[FinFaninBuffalo]

You seem to want to distract others from the simple question of whether the Bills are well coached or not.


1st, Sparano has some guy named Bill Parcells in the front office. Not sure who he is or if anyone respect him or not.

Sparano is the coach. The discussion is about how well coached the team is. The Fins are better coached than the Bills and Sparano is a rookie HC.


2nd, Harbaugh has the #2 defense in the league. Any head coach could field a competitive team with a defense that good.

You might want to also check the performance of the offense during the second half of the season. They have improved as the season went on. Can the same be said for the Bills?


3rd, Mike Smith has a team with decent talent and a fantastic RB. They are the sleeper this year, every year has one. Can they do it again next year or will they falter like the Browns? We will have to see.

Isn't Lynch a fantastic RB as well? Why were the Bill the new up and coming team this year?


You did a good job making my point actually:

Fins: stellar FO = decent shot at the playoffs
Ravens: Stellar talent on D = decent team with a shot
ATL: This years sleeper, maybe Smith turns out to be a great HC, the next few years will tell.

If you or anyone else thinks THIS TEAM can find some sleeper newbie coach and turn this ship around into a playoff team real soon, you have obviously not followed this team. That is NOT the easiest way to do it, it is NOT even a likely way to do it, in fact its the LEAST possible, MOST unlikely, and MOST difficult way for this team to proceed.

How can a HC with multiple consecutive losing seasons be considered a higher probability of success than a new HC? You'd rather stay with the guaranteed loser than a potential improvement? Wow....


For the life of me, I will never figure out why people want to try to go the hard route over and over, fail, fail because the odds were so stacked against us, and then complain to make changes... only to argue that we should take the same unlikely approach all over again.

Forget football, just play the lottery, your chances are probably better to get a winner that way.

Will you be saying the same thing if Jauron has 10 more years of losing seasons? If not, why not?

I can tell you that I'm glad the Fins didn't give Cameron another season.

Stop avoiding the issue and tell me - do you have any confidence that Jauron and Co. can OUTCOACH many teams in the NFL?

[X-Era]

The Fins being better coached is an arguable point. Im not conviced thats true. But it may be, its by no means a landslide. MY point was that their winning ways have more to do with whos in the FO.

No, the Bills have not improved overall, although were getting glimpses of improvement from Edwards and Lynch

No, Lynch isnt a fantastic RB yet. I think he will be, hes one of my favorite RB's in the league and I want to keep him.

I never said that changing the HC couldnt help. What I said was that ONLY changing the HC, and then going to some newbie has been a recipe that fails for us over and over. Again, your skipping the major change you made in the FO. If the Bills made a change of that caliper in the FO, I might then agree that a newbie HC could win more games. You want it ALL to be about the HC, its not. And JUST changing the HC to another newbie will simply give us more of the same IMO.

To answer your final question.

I think the Bills can have players who make less mistakes and are able to outplay other teams. To do that they need more talent overall. If they had more talent, then Jauron could be good enough to win us more games.

If we dont want to significantly improve the talent, count on undrafteds and guys that arent good enough to start anywhere else to make solid plays, then no I dont think Jauron is a good enough HC to get us to the playoffs.

My point is clear. What we have is:

An average HC at best
An average FO at best
Average talent overall

That adds up to be average. If you want to simply replace one part of that with another average part, you get more of the same.

I have no reason to believe that simply adding another previous HC who didntmake the playoffs or a newbie HC will end up doing anything more than average.

And my bigger point is that the Fins didnt keep everything average, they made a monsterous change in attitude and approach with Parcells. You have no idea how much that change impacted them. Maybe Sparano would be awful on a team with the wrong approach in the FO.

[FinFaninBuffalo]

The Fins being better coached is an arguable point. Im not conviced thats true. But it may be, its by no means a landslide. MY point was that their winning ways have more to do with whos in the FO.

An arguable point? WTF? The Fins my tie an NFL record for fewest turnovers in a season. They started a new trend this year in the NFL. That's all coaching.

Performance on the field is coaching, not the FO. The FO just brings in the players.

Rank the talent between the Fins and the Bills by position (here are my rankings):

OL - Tie
WR - Bills
RB - Tie
TE - Fins
QB - Fins

DL - Tie
LB - Tie
secondary - Bills

Special teams - Bills

IMO, the teams are fairly close in talent, yet the Fins have 3 more wins. Points for and points against are very similar, yet the Fins have 3 more wins.

It's coaching, coaching, coaching.....


No, the Bills have not improved overall, although were getting glimpses of improvement from Edwards and Lynch

No improvement overall, despite bringing in Stroud, Mitchell, getting Poz back, 2nd year for Edwards and Lynch, another year of experience for the OL, etc, etc.

2006: 7-9
2007: 7-9
2008: 7-9 (likely)

That is treading water....


No, Lynch isnt a fantastic RB yet. I think he will be, hes one of my favorite RB's in the league and I want to keep him.

I never said that changing the HC couldnt help. What I said was that ONLY changing the HC, and then going to some newbie has been a recipe that fails for us over and over. Again, your skipping the major change you made in the FO. If the Bills made a change of that caliper in the FO, I might then agree that a newbie HC could win more games. You want it ALL to be about the HC, its not. And JUST changing the HC to another newbie will simply give us more of the same IMO.

They won't just change the HC. They will change the entire coaching staff.

What were the big FO changes in Atlanta and Baltimore?


To answer your final question.

I think the Bills can have players who make less mistakes and are able to outplay other teams. To do that they need more talent overall. If they had more talent, then Jauron could be good enough to win us more games.

On the other hand, better coaching wins more games with the same players.


If we dont want to significantly improve the talent, count on undrafteds and guys that arent good enough to start anywhere else to make solid plays, then no I dont think Jauron is a good enough HC to get us to the playoffs.

The Bills have more talent than you give them credit for.


My point is clear. What we have is:

An average HC at best
An average FO at best
Average talent overall

That adds up to be average. If you want to simply replace one part of that with another average part, you get more of the same.

I have no reason to believe that simply adding another previous HC who didntmake the playoffs or a newbie HC will end up doing anything more than average.

But you do have reason to believe that Jauron can improve? Are you advocating doing nothing and staying 7-9 forever? Really?


And my bigger point is that the Fins didnt keep everything average, they made a monsterous change in attitude and approach with Parcells. You have no idea how much that change impacted them. Maybe Sparano would be awful on a team with the wrong approach in the FO.

The fact is that Sparano has done a good job coaching this team. That has nothing to do with the FO.

Here is another question for you. Name one change that Jauron has made that made you think wow....

Here are a few from Sparano:

1. the Wildcat
2. Moving Matt Roth to LB
3. Benching a high priced FA WR (Wilford), BTW, Parcells signed him.

You underestimate the value of good coaching.

[X-Era]

An arguable point? WTF? The Fins my tie an NFL record for fewest turnovers in a season. They started a new trend this year in the NFL. That's all coaching.

Performance on the field is coaching, not the FO. The FO just brings in the players.

Rank the talent between the Fins and the Bills by position (here are my rankings):

OL - Tie
WR - Bills
RB - Tie
TE - Fins
QB - Fins

DL - Tie
LB - Tie
secondary - Bills

Special teams - Bills

IMO, the teams are fairly close in talent, yet the Fins have 3 more wins. Points for and points against are very similar, yet the Fins have 3 more wins.

It's coaching, coaching, coaching.....



No improvement overall, despite bringing in Stroud, Mitchell, getting Poz back, 2nd year for Edwards and Lynch, another year of experience for the OL, etc, etc.

2006: 7-9
2007: 7-9
2008: 7-9 (likely)

That is treading water....



They won't just change the HC. They will change the entire coaching staff.

What were the big FO changes in Atlanta and Baltimore?



On the other hand, better coaching wins more games with the same players.



The Bills have more talent than you give them credit for.



But you do have reason to believe that Jauron can improve? Are you advocating doing nothing and staying 7-9 forever? Really?



The fact is that Sparano has done a good job coaching this team. That has nothing to do with the FO.

Here is another question for you. Name one change that Jauron has made that made you think wow....

Here are a few from Sparano:

1. the Wildcat
2. Moving Matt Roth to LB
3. Benching a high priced FA WR (Wilford), BTW, Parcells signed him.

You underestimate the value of good coaching.

Look, I dont want to play this game with you.

The Fins are a decent team this year. You have your beliefs as to why, I have mine.

My mind is set on the Bills, I do not want a newbie HC period. It hasnt worked in Buffalo and wont IMO.

The only way I will go along with that is if we drastically improve somewhere else like overall talent and or the FO.

By re-reading your post, its clear that your not getting what Im saying. I will never be happy with doing nothing. Re-read what Im saying about Jauron. re-read what I said the formula looks like.

Your a Fin fan, and Im a Bills fan, Im not playing some game where I (obviously overrate the Bills) and you (obviously) overrate the Fins... thats just stupid.

[Nighthawk]

You're not listening. Big shocker there...

No one in the BZ knows all of the exact reasons for the Bills sucking in the middle of the season. It appears that they are playing harder as of late for fear that their coach might be fired. That's all I'm saying. If you want to argue about anything else because someone doesn't share the same opinion with you feel free, I'm done arguing.

BTW, if you do a search, you will find probably 100 posts by me that claim I want Dickface fired...

I'm not saying you don't or never did want Dickey fired, but you seem to be putting up an arguement that it is OK that he stays, just because they played hard for him in one game at the end of the season...a meaningless game no less. That's the part I don't agree with people on. I don't believe a coach should be kept just because a team "plays hard"...it's about wins and the ability to win a championship. That's how I measure a coach and I'm hoping that the Bills would use this model also.

[FinFaninBuffalo]

Look, I dont want to play this game with you.

The Fins are a decent team this year. You have your beliefs as to why, I have mine.

You want to believe in the magic of Parcells. I believe Parcells brought in a coach that he had confidence would run the team his way. Parcells is not coaching the team.

I can't imagine Jauron coaching a team led by Parcells. He would have been fired already if he were coaching the Fins.


My mind is set on the Bills, I do not want a newbie HC period. It hasnt worked in Buffalo and wont IMO.

And the experience HC has worked???


The only way I will go along with that is if we drastically improve somewhere else like overall talent and or the FO.

In your opinion.....


By re-reading your post, its clear that your not getting what Im saying. I will never be happy with doing nothing. Re-read what Im saying about Jauron. re-read what I said the formula looks like.

You continue to avoid the fundamental question about coaching. What has Jauron done to inspire any kind of confidence?


Your a Fin fan, and Im a Bills fan, Im not playing some game where I (obviously overrate the Bills) and you (obviously) overrate the Fins... thats just stupid.

????? I clearly stated that I believe the talent level is similar. Do you agree or disagree.


Show me where the Fins have 3 wins more talent than the Bills....

[Nighthawk]

All you have to do is look around the league. How many teams do you think get outcoached by the Bills? Seriously, do you have any confidence that games against teams with superior talent can be overcome because of the Bills coaching staff?

Several rookie head coaches around the league have significantly fielded teams that are significantly more prepared than the Bills, including Tony Sparano, Mike Smith, and John Harbaugh. Smith and Harbaugh are doing it with rookie QBs.

Since I'm a fan of the Fins, I follow them more closely. Here are some of my observations about Sparano's approach that contrasts with Jauron:

1. Sparano brought in experienced coordinators. Neither was in the NFL last year, so I doubt they are highly paid.
2. Sparano stresses fundamentals. As a result, the team makes few mistakes. They have a chance to break the record for fewest turnovers in a season.
3. Sparano is not afraid to play less well know players. He has rotated in offensive linemen all season long. As a result, injuries to the OL have hurt less than in previous seasons. They have played a huge number of players in the secondary this year. Role players (Patrick Cobbs, Charlie Anderson, Nate Jones, Joey Haynos, Lou Polite) have all made contributions this year.
4. He recognized early on that the team was in need of a spark. He and his coaching staff came up with the wildcat to help jump start the team before they got too far behind.
5. They don't win pretty, but he puts his players in a position to win. He also does not accept underperforming. You play well or you don't play.

I have no delusions about the Fins being a super talented team. IMO, the talent level is similar to the Bills, yet the Fins have a chance to win the division this year. Unlike the Bills, they turned over nearly 50% of the roster in the offseason, hired an entire new organization, new offensive and defensive schemes, etc, etc.

IMO, it all points to better coaching.

This is an excellent post from a fan of another team. It's funny how other teams fans are rooting for the Bills to keep Jauron, just so they have a better chance of marking down a win on the schedule! Jauron is NOT feared around the NFL and will NEVER outcoach another HC in this league.

[Nighthawk]

Look, I dont want to play this game with you.

The Fins are a decent team this year. You have your beliefs as to why, I have mine.

My mind is set on the Bills, I do not want a newbie HC period. It hasnt worked in Buffalo and wont IMO.
The only way I will go along with that is if we drastically improve somewhere else like overall talent and or the FO.

By re-reading your post, its clear that your not getting what Im saying. I will never be happy with doing nothing. Re-read what Im saying about Jauron. re-read what I said the formula looks like.

Your a Fin fan, and Im a Bills fan, Im not playing some game where I (obviously overrate the Bills) and you (obviously) overrate the Fins... thats just stupid.

This is a stupid statement because nobody knows how a new HC with no experience will do in the job. Saying you don't want because you don't feel it won't work is a quitters mentality. It's worked in other places but somehow, you think it could NEVER work in Buffalo? Silly statement...just silly.

[Nighthawk]

Look, I dont want to play this game with you.

The Fins are a decent team this year. You have your beliefs as to why, I have mine.

My mind is set on the Bills, I do not want a newbie HC period. It hasnt worked in Buffalo and wont IMO.

The only way I will go along with that is if we drastically improve somewhere else like overall talent and or the FO.

By re-reading your post, its clear that your not getting what Im saying. I will never be happy with doing nothing. Re-read what Im saying about Jauron. re-read what I said the formula looks like.

Your a Fin fan, and Im a Bills fan, Im not playing some game where I (obviously overrate the Bills) and you (obviously) overrate the Fins... thats just stupid.

You're kidding, right? Nowhere does FinFan overrate the Fins...in fact he has been very fair in his assessment. On the other hand, he has also rated the Bills talent higher then you have, so this statement makes no sense at all!

[X-Era]

You both need to wake the hell up.

Do you remember Gregg? Mike? hell even Wade?

Every single time we tried that we ended up in failure.

What one thing has remained constant? RALPH.

Mike and Gregg both had a highly thought of Donahoe, and surprisingly that was when we came closest to the playoffs since 99.

Almost like a FO with experience, proven vets who were signed in significant positions could make up for a newbie HC. And it almost worked.

But somehow now, with our "business" manager who has ZERO experience running anything except keeping Raplhs account in the black, and we can do little to nothing to get better talent wise, and sign some newbie HC and we will win???

Its funny guys, its hillarious actually.

Quit buying what the Bills are selling, they have proven to you for years that they dont get it done. And you guys just keep eating it up.

We are not the Fins. And if you dont think Parcells brings a serious attitude change to the football team as a whole (and yes to the players and coaches) you are flat out nuts!

If you bring in some newbie witrh Russ still at the helm, and the teams talent still where it is, we will be looking at more non-playoff seasons.

The equation includes significant upgrades at more than just HC (assuming the unproven HC we bring in is an upgrade).

And finally, clearly, so that you both can undertsand it, NO I DO NOT THINK JAURON IS A GREAT HC! In fact, I have no problem firing him. I wouldnt even mind bringing in a newbie IF we ALSO make significant upgrades on talent and probably the FO as well.

NO, all things being equal except the HC being a newbie is NOT enough to go to the playoffs. Thats the LEAST likely result. It takes more, or a HC with a proven track record.

[X-Era]

BTW, the FIns equation was Parcells + Pennington + Sparano = maybe the playoffs. Its all three (and probably more) not just Sparano.

[FinFaninBuffalo]

You both need to wake the hell up.

Do you remember Gregg? Mike? hell even Wade?

Every single time we tried that we ended up in failure.

What one thing has remained constant? RALPH.

Mike and Gregg both had a highly thought of Donahoe, and surprisingly that was when we came closest to the playoffs since 99.

Almost like a FO with experience, proven vets who were signed in significant positions could make up for a newbie HC. And it almost worked.

But somehow now, with our "business" manager who has ZERO experience running anything except keeping Raplhs account in the black, and we can do little to nothing to get better talent wise, and sign some newbie HC and we will win???

Its funny guys, its hillarious actually.

Quit buying what the Bills are selling, they have proven to you for years that they dont get it done. And you guys just keep eating it up.

We are not the Fins. And if you dont think Parcells brings a serious attitude change to the football team as a whole (and yes to the players and coaches) you are flat out nuts!

If you bring in some newbie witrh Russ still at the helm, and the teams talent still where it is, we will be looking at more non-playoff seasons.

The equation includes significant upgrades at more than just HC (assuming the unproven HC we bring in is an upgrade).

And finally, clearly, so that you both can undertsand it, NO I DO NOT THINK JAURON IS A GREAT HC! In fact, I have no problem firing him. I wouldnt even mind bringing in a newbie IF we ALSO make significant upgrades on talent and probably the FO as well.

NO, all things being equal except the HC being a newbie is NOT enough to go to the playoffs. Thats the LEAST likely result. It takes more, or a HC with a proven track record.

Why do you keep avoiding the simple questions about coaching?

Show me where the Fins have 3 wins more talent than the Bills.

What has Jauron done to inspire any kind of confidence?

[Typ0]

This is a stupid statement because nobody knows how a new HC with no experience will do in the job. Saying you don't want because you don't feel it won't work is a quitters mentality. It's worked in other places but somehow, you think it could NEVER work in Buffalo? Silly statement...just silly.

it's not a quitters mentality. The ownership of this organization does not see a commitment to winning is a mechanism to financial success. I don't care who the coach is there will be no championships here without a huge amount of luck and years of developing a system that has a chance to take advantage of that luck. Yes, money has been spent in the last decade and acquisitions have been made...but many players have also been lost and until the past season we've seen players come but other areas of the team suffer for it. DJ & OBD are trying to build something that can win given the paramaters he has IMO and that is going to take time for ANY COACH HERE IN BUFFALO.

You are just another person reaching to find evidence of something being successful by grasping at low percentage things. The fact is new coaches don't typically turn teams around. In Miami's case they got Parcells who has a lot of connections and respect to bring in a lot of talent. In our case we hired Levy out of the broadcast booth and he had zero clue even how to manage the finances of player relations and then we handed the job over to a marketing guy. The situation here is different! If RW will write checks for Cowher or Shotty and then write the checks for them to have the people they want around them in assistants and players then no question that is our best alternative but he's not going to do that. Our best chance of making the playoffs next year is that the players believe in the system in place RIGHT NOW and they learn and demonstrate their commitment next year with the same regime.

[X-Era]

Why do you keep avoiding the simple questions about coaching?

Show me where the Fins have 3 wins more talent than the Bills.

What has Jauron done to inspire any kind of confidence?

Apparently we are STILL miscommunicating.

Our coaching has not been good enough.

All I am saying is that a FO that brings in the right talent, and/or improving the overall talent could make up for Jauron and get us to the playoffs. To me, thats a scenario that may also work.

I am also saying that changing Jauron for a newbie, but keeping the FO and not drastically improving the talent, most likely means more fo the same.

Im chosing to look at the entire team from top to bottom rather than focusing on just one area.

If you want to talk just about Jauron, OK. Jauron, to me, has been better than both Mike and Gregg. He has the team stadning behind him, he has players keeping quiet, he has taken a decimated team last year and had them playing tough in most games. Was it enough? no. This year, he started us 5 and 1, and then allowed us to play horrible 4 games in a row. Thats unforgiveable. But Trent, out there, by himself, played horrible in all 4 games. Caoching didnt help, Jauron didnt help, but Trent was a major part of those losses.

I would rather keep the same schemes, with a roster built to fit the schemes, add a few more highly talented players tof it our schemes, and add a GM to bring in serious FA talent, and yes pay them what they are worth, and keep Jauron...

Then to bring in a newbie HC, keep the existing talent the same (not bring in any highly touted FA's), change all the coords and schemes, take several years to learn it and be able to play it like second nature, and still lose.

The problem is that the Bills are not likely to do ANY of the things neccesary to really win and change the culture here. Ralph wont bring in a guy like Cowher, or a Parcells type in the FO, or sign a Terrel Suggs or a Haynesworth, or a Peppers.

So, no, I dont see how simply changing Jauron for a newbie even as good as Sparano makes this team a winner. Its not enough, our abilities in the offseason due to the FO is not good enough, our starting talent is not good enough, our backups are not solid enough. So, a simple change of head coaching wont do enough to buy even one playoff appearance IMO... unless its Cowher, or Reid, or Holmgren, or maybe even Billick. But again, we wont make a move that bold.

The Fins owner has made bold moves. He brought Jimmy back to help in the FO, and now Parcells, and Parcells (who knows who is worthy of a HC job or not) brought in Sparano. Your change started at the top and trickled down, but it started with a proven winner. Your right that Bill would never let Dick screw up that bad (during the 4 game skid) and THATS my point. Is it that Dick doesnt have the ability or that he isnt being pushed hard enough? Maybe Sparano is doing so well, because he knows Bill wont pull any punches if he screws up. But Bill also wont give him crap on the field either.

A guy like Bill, Cowher, Holmgren, maybe even Billick knows how to win, they know what it takes, they know what they need as far as talent, they know what level of mental toughness you need, they know how to quickly turn things around if they skid, they know how to evaluate talent.

No, Jauron does not. No, he cant do all of that. But could someone else help him? maybe. Could someone who does show him? maybe force him to? maybe. Find the right type of players? maybe. Could someone like Homgren make a strong enough arguement to Ralph to pay for Suggs or Haynesworth or Peppers? maybe.

Its not as simple as a coaching change. Its not just that easy. Its more, its a lump sum. Its the whole puzzle not just a piece or two.

[FinFaninBuffalo]

Apparently we are STILL miscommunicating.

Our coaching has not been good enough.

All I am saying is that a FO that brings in the right talent, and/or improving the overall talent could make up for Jauron and get us to the playoffs. To me, thats a scenario that may also work.

I am also saying that changing Jauron for a newbie, but keeping the FO and not drastically improving the talent, most likely means more fo the same.

Im chosing to look at the entire team from top to bottom rather than focusing on just one area.

If you want to talk just about Jauron, OK. Jauron, to me, has been better than both Mike and Gregg. He has the team stadning behind him, he has players keeping quiet, he has taken a decimated team last year and had them playing tough in most games. Was it enough? no. This year, he started us 5 and 1, and then allowed us to play horrible 4 games in a row. Thats unforgiveable. But Trent, out there, by himself, played horrible in all 4 games. Caoching didnt help, Jauron didnt help, but Trent was a major part of those losses.

I would rather keep the same schemes, with a roster built to fit the schemes, add a few more highly talented players tof it our schemes, and add a GM to bring in serious FA talent, and yes pay them what they are worth, and keep Jauron...

Then to bring in a newbie HC, keep the existing talent the same (not bring in any highly touted FA's), change all the coords and schemes, take several years to learn it and be able to play it like second nature, and still lose.

The problem is that the Bills are not likely to do ANY of the things neccesary to really win and change the culture here. Ralph wont bring in a guy like Cowher, or a Parcells type in the FO, or sign a Terrel Suggs or a Haynesworth, or a Peppers.

So, no, I dont see how simply changing Jauron for a newbie even as good as Sparano makes this team a winner. Its not enough, our abilities in the offseason due to the FO is not good enough, our starting talent is not good enough, our backups are not solid enough. So, a simple change of head coaching wont do enough to buy even one playoff appearance IMO... unless its Cowher, or Reid, or Holmgren, or maybe even Billick. But again, we wont make a move that bold.

The Fins owner has made bold moves. He brought Jimmy back to help in the FO, and now Parcells, and Parcells (who knows who is worthy of a HC job or not) brought in Sparano. Your change started at the top and trickled down, but it started with a proven winner. Your right that Bill would never let Dick screw up that bad (during the 4 game skid) and THATS my point. Is it that Dick doesnt have the ability or that he isnt being pushed hard enough? Maybe Sparano is doing so well, because he knows Bill wont pull any punches if he screws up. But Bill also wont give him crap on the field either.

A guy like Bill, Cowher, Holmgren, maybe even Billick knows how to win, they know what it takes, they know what they need as far as talent, they know what level of mental toughness you need, they know how to quickly turn things around if they skid, they know how to evaluate talent.

No, Jauron does not. No, he cant do all of that. But could someone else help him? maybe. Could someone who does show him? maybe force him to? maybe. Find the right type of players? maybe. Could someone like Homgren make a strong enough arguement to Ralph to pay for Suggs or Haynesworth or Peppers? maybe.

Its not as simple as a coaching change. Its not just that easy. Its more, its a lump sum. Its the whole puzzle not just a piece or two.

Where did I advocate ONLY replacing Jauron? Why do you keep comparing two radically different scenarios? Of course improving the roster would be important too.

Wouldn't you like to improve the roster and the coaching staff? You admit that the coaching was not good enough yet you want to keep the staff. Strange.

[Nighthawk]

it's not a quitters mentality. The ownership of this organization does not see a commitment to winning is a mechanism to financial success. I don't care who the coach is there will be no championships here without a huge amount of luck and years of developing a system that has a chance to take advantage of that luck. Yes, money has been spent in the last decade and acquisitions have been made...but many players have also been lost and until the past season we've seen players come but other areas of the team suffer for it. DJ & OBD are trying to build something that can win given the paramaters he has IMO and that is going to take time for ANY COACH HERE IN BUFFALO.

You are just another person reaching to find evidence of something being successful by grasping at low percentage things. The fact is new coaches don't typically turn teams around. In Miami's case they got Parcells who has a lot of connections and respect to bring in a lot of talent. In our case we hired Levy out of the broadcast booth and he had zero clue even how to manage the finances of player relations and then we handed the job over to a marketing guy. The situation here is different! If RW will write checks for Cowher or Shotty and then write the checks for them to have the people they want around them in assistants and players then no question that is our best alternative but he's not going to do that. Our best chance of making the playoffs next year is that the players believe in the system in place RIGHT NOW and they learn and demonstrate their commitment next year with the same regime.

It is what it is...you love mediocrity. There is no other reason why you would support a coach who has proven himself to be a loser.

[Nighthawk]

BTW, the FIns equation was Parcells + Pennington + Sparano = maybe the playoffs. Its all three (and probably more) not just Sparano.

You guys who think that Jauron has no say in the players who are brought in here are mental! Of course we could use more players, but when you have mediocrity at the HC spot and the GM spot, then it does not matter who you bring in regarding talent! You guys are so clueless sometimes!

[X-Era]

Where did I advocate ONLY replacing Jauron? Why do you keep comparing two radically different scenarios? Of course improving the roster would be important too.

Wouldn't you like to improve the roster and the coaching staff? You admit that the coaching was not good enough yet you want to keep the staff. Strange.

STILL missing it... for the last time.

Keeping Jauron may work, in my opinion, if we made our roster way better and did much better managing above his level.

I do not want to keep everything the same and then bring in a newbie, Ive seen it fail here.

Its real simple.

[X-Era]

You guys who think that Jauron has no say in the players who are brought in here are mental! Of course we could use more players, but when you have mediocrity at the HC spot and the GM spot, then it does not matter who you bring in regarding talent! You guys are so clueless sometimes!
NO, thats not true.

A high powered team makes up for coaching mistakes with a will to win. They make plays that other players cant even if they are put in bad situations. They can play stellar even though they are out coached.

BTW, you will never see me say that we shouldnt do everything in our power to get truly better. But an unproven HC is just that unproven... and we do a horrible job of making no namers into great coaches, look at our recent history.

My problem is with the Bills FO and mostly Ralph. He never seems to make the right move. Russ was a mistake, as was Jauron. Unfortunately, he doesnt understand that we have to give this thing shock and awe at this point or we are doomed.

Were are trying to push a boulder up a hill. It will take a huge amount of force and change to make this thing roll, but once it gets going, it will get easier.

Thats why I have now, and always will advocate HC's like Cowher. The very least im willing to settle for is Billick. If anyone wants to go more unproven, or less likely to succeed, Id rather just keep Jauron.

Thats how I feel, it wont change.

[Nighthawk]

NO, thats not true.

A high powered team makes up for coaching mistakes with a will to win. They make plays that other players cant even if they are put in bad situations. They can play stellar even though they are out coached.

BTW, you will never see me say that we shouldnt do everything in our power to get truly better. But an unproven HC is just that unproven... and we do a horrible job of making no namers into great coaches, look at our recent history.

My problem is with the Bills FO and mostly Ralph. He never seems to make the right move. Russ was a mistake, as was Jauron. Unfortunately, he doesnt understand that we have to give this thing shock and awe at this point or we are doomed.

Were are trying to push a boulder up a hill. It will take a huge amount of force and change to make this thing roll, but once it gets going, it will get easier.

Thats why I have now, and always will advocate HC's like Cowher. The very least im willing to settle for is Billick. If anyone wants to go more unproven, or less likely to succeed, Id rather just keep Jauron.

Thats how I feel, it wont change.

Therefore, you do understand that no matter who they bring in here player wise, that this team will not succeed next year if Jauron is here? You do understand this..correct? They made acquisitions this year and stated that they were a playoff team...then bad coaching killed us when we started the season 4-0/5-1, but somehow keeping Jauron will be good for this team? I'm sorry, your logic is not very good. Jauron has a proven history of being a loser...WE KNOW WHAT HE IS! Of course, I'd love a big name to come in here like Cowher or Billick or Schottenheimer or whoever, but even if they got an unproven HC with upside, I'd still be excited to see what he could do because at least he has a 50/50 chance of being good. Jauron has a 100% chance of being mediocre.

[X-Era]

Therefore, you do understand that no matter who they bring in here player wise, that this team will not succeed next year if Jauron is here? You do understand this..correct? They made acquisitions this year and stated that they were a playoff team...then bad coaching killed us when we started the season 4-0/5-1, but somehow keeping Jauron will be good for this team? I'm sorry, your logic is not very good. Jauron has a proven history of being a loser...WE KNOW WHAT HE IS! Of course, I'd love a big name to come in here like Cowher or Billick or Schottenheimer or whoever, but even if they got an unproven HC with upside, I'd still be excited to see what he could do because at least he has a 50/50 chance of being good. Jauron has a 100% chance of being mediocre.

No, its you who doesn't understand that teams like the Ravens would be just as good under Jauron. Why? they have a stellar defense with studs left and right. That team can win with an average HC. Dallas is another example.

And again, you missed it. Some new HC with our level of talent most likely (not even 50/50) equals medicority or worse.

How in the hell did you fool yourself into believing that Kawika Mitchell was a stud LB signing? How did you manage to do that? Will James? Courtney Anderson? Teyo Johnson? Seriously... thats a good offseason? Marcus Stroud was one of our best moves in years. But we also didnt re-do his contract. I bet hes complaining and causing problems by the end of next year if not sooner.

No, we have done a HORRIBLE job in the offseason since Jauron has been here. We perpetually have average DE's and WONT address it... you can add Chris Ellis into that mix as well, and yes Iv e said that since before that draft. We have skipped the C position over and over, and RG. You can add LB when Crowell went down before the start of the season. You can add QB where we went with a 3rd rounder who, luckily, might work out. We went to the FB set again and signed no one worth a crap. We wanted a true #2 WR, and skipped that boat too and instead drafted a guy who is utterly clueless on the field. Thank god for Johnson.

Im being generous when I say we have done even average overall in FA and the draft. But the biggest mess is our backup situation where we have camp fodder as our primary backups at several key positions. And then, we are surprised that we play horrible at times during the year. Our defense plays horrible unless they have all the starters in. Our offense is the worst in the league unless Trent is starting.

But your right, lets bring in the next Gregg Williams, and have another status quo offseason. Sounds like a step back, not forward.

[FinFaninBuffalo]

STILL missing it... for the last time.

Keeping Jauron may work, in my opinion, if we made our roster way better and did much better managing above his level.

I do not want to keep everything the same and then bring in a newbie, Ive seen it fail here.

Its real simple.

You clearly don't get it....

You admit the coaching isn't good enough. The rest is jibberish.

Your opinion is that if they had the perfect roster and FO, then MAYBE Jauron wouldn't screw it up too bad. Nice.

[FinFaninBuffalo]

No, its you who doesn't understand that teams like the Ravens would be just as good under Jauron. Why? they have a stellar defense with studs left and right. That team can win with an average HC. Dallas is another example.

And again, you missed it. Some new HC with our level of talent most likely (not even 50/50) equals medicority or worse.

How in the hell did you fool yourself into believing that Kawika Mitchell was a stud LB signing? How did you manage to do that? Will James? Courtney Anderson? Teyo Johnson? Seriously... thats a good offseason? Marcus Stroud was one of our best moves in years. But we also didnt re-do his contract. I bet hes complaining and causing problems by the end of next year if not sooner.

No, we have done a HORRIBLE job in the offseason since Jauron has been here. We perpetually have average DE's and WONT address it... you can add Chris Ellis into that mix as well, and yes Iv e said that since before that draft. We have skipped the C position over and over, and RG. You can add LB when Crowell went down before the start of the season. You can add QB where we went with a 3rd rounder who, luckily, might work out. We went to the FB set again and signed no one worth a crap. We wanted a true #2 WR, and skipped that boat too and instead drafted a guy who is utterly clueless on the field. Thank god for Johnson.

Im being generous when I say we have done even average overall in FA and the draft. But the biggest mess is our backup situation where we have camp fodder as our primary backups at several key positions. And then, we are surprised that we play horrible at times during the year. Our defense plays horrible unless they have all the starters in. Our offense is the worst in the league unless Trent is starting.

But your right, lets bring in the next Gregg Williams, and have another status quo offseason. Sounds like a step back, not forward.

Let me turn it around for you to help you see it another way.

Since Ralph will not replace the FO or the recently acquired free agents and the Bills are not likely to be big players in FA this offseason, it will take a great coaching performance to overcome the average talent and front office, right? Jauron isn't going to give you that.

Ralph will also not pay the big money for a sure thing at HC either. What are you left with? Try a highly regarded up and coming coach to turn this thing around. What have you got to lose?

[Nighthawk]

No, its you who doesn't understand that teams like the Ravens would be just as good under Jauron. Why? they have a stellar defense with studs left and right. That team can win with an average HC. Dallas is another example.

And again, you missed it. Some new HC with our level of talent most likely (not even 50/50) equals medicority or worse.

How in the hell did you fool yourself into believing that Kawika Mitchell was a stud LB signing? How did you manage to do that? Will James? Courtney Anderson? Teyo Johnson? Seriously... thats a good offseason? Marcus Stroud was one of our best moves in years. But we also didnt re-do his contract. I bet hes complaining and causing problems by the end of next year if not sooner.

No, we have done a HORRIBLE job in the offseason since Jauron has been here. We perpetually have average DE's and WONT address it... you can add Chris Ellis into that mix as well, and yes Iv e said that since before that draft. We have skipped the C position over and over, and RG. You can add LB when Crowell went down before the start of the season. You can add QB where we went with a 3rd rounder who, luckily, might work out. We went to the FB set again and signed no one worth a crap. We wanted a true #2 WR, and skipped that boat too and instead drafted a guy who is utterly clueless on the field. Thank god for Johnson.

Im being generous when I say we have done even average overall in FA and the draft. But the biggest mess is our backup situation where we have camp fodder as our primary backups at several key positions. And then, we are surprised that we play horrible at times during the year. Our defense plays horrible unless they have all the starters in. Our offense is the worst in the league unless Trent is starting.

But your right, lets bring in the next Gregg Williams, and have another status quo offseason. Sounds like a step back, not forward.

It's official...somebody spiked your eggnog!!!

[X-Era]

Let me turn it around for you to help you see it another way.

Since Ralph will not replace the FO or the recently acquired free agents and the Bills are not likely to be big players in FA this offseason, it will take a great coaching performance to overcome the average talent and front office, right? Jauron isn't going to give you that.

Ralph will also not pay the big money for a sure thing at HC either. What are you left with? Try a highly regarded up and coming coach to turn this thing around. What have you got to lose?

That is EXACTLY the way the Bills think.

I agree that's what we will do. I just dont think its good enough. I'm not willing to even call it good enough.

Hopeful? sure. Will I still root for them? sure. But they don't do whats necessary to win. That's a proven fact. And its about to continue. The sick part is that some of you are actually rooting them on to continue it.

That's where you and I part ways on this.

I have been optimistic since day one, but Im tired of it. Im not going to be saying that there half ass attempts at getting better are enough anymore.

The way you win against all of this is to make sure that Russ and company knows your not fooled by his slick salesman ways anymore.

Hes not fooling me anymore into thinking this team is going to the playoffs until he (and others) makes such drastic and signficant upgrades that even we cant screw it up.

THAT is the level of change thats needed IMO.

Im glad that your team has a real shot, honest. Im glad to see that you guys have a winning attitude again, honestly. We dont, and no small signing, late round gem, or HC from obscurity will likely fix it.

[Nighthawk]

Let me turn it around for you to help you see it another way.

Since Ralph will not replace the FO or the recently acquired free agents and the Bills are not likely to be big players in FA this offseason, it will take a great coaching performance to overcome the average talent and front office, right? Jauron isn't going to give you that.

Ralph will also not pay the big money for a sure thing at HC either. What are you left with? Try a highly regarded up and coming coach to turn this thing around. What have you got to lose?

And there you have it....I couldn't have said it any better. The Bills will not bring in a ton of big names to improve this team, so coaching is where we have to be good. We're not and will never be if Jauron stays!

[X-Era]

And there you have it....I couldn't have said it any better. The Bills will not bring in a ton of big names to improve this team, so coaching is where we have to be good. We're not and will never be if Jauron stays!

Its starting to make sense.

You are at a different place than me. Your still willing to hold out hope that a newbie HC can take this team to the playoffs.

Im sorry, but Im not. Ive seen enough to have learned to feel that only sure fire moves will be enough now.

I will always be happy if your right, and Im wrong. Because I feel strongly we are likely to do exactly what you describe.

We agree about what the Bills will likely do, its only that you think it may still work. I dont.

[FinFaninBuffalo]

And there you have it....I couldn't have said it any better. The Bills will not bring in a ton of big names to improve this team, so coaching is where we have to be good. We're not and will never be if Jauron stays!

I don't think the Bills talent is that bad. On offense they need a C, RG, and TE and depth. The rest of the offense will improve with experience.

On defense they need a pass rushing DE, 1 or 2 LBs, and depth at most positions.

IMO, the biggest problems in the coaching staff are the OC and DC, but Jauron doesn't inspire confidence either.

[Nighthawk]

I don't think the Bills talent is that bad. On offense they need a C, RG, and TE and depth. The rest of the offense will improve with experience.

On defense they need a pass rushing DE, 1 or 2 LBs, and depth at most positions.

IMO, the biggest problems in the coaching staff are the OC and DC, but Jauron doesn't inspire confidence either.

Ultimately, the Bills coaching is where this organization is hurting the most. I'd love a real football mind in the GM position, but I'm not sure that will happen.

[jamze132]

I'm not saying you don't or never did want Dickey fired, but you seem to be putting up an arguement that it is OK that he stays, just because they played hard for him in one game at the end of the season...a meaningless game no less. That's the part I don't agree with people on. I don't believe a coach should be kept just because a team "plays hard"...it's about wins and the ability to win a championship. That's how I measure a coach and I'm hoping that the Bills would use this model also.
No I don't want Dick to be here, I have just come to the realization that he will be regardless of what any of us want. So what's the point in whining like a little school girl about it?

Suck it up and cheer for the Bills.

[Typ0]

It is what it is...you love mediocrity. There is no other reason why you would support a coach who has proven himself to be a loser.


Said coach never had adequate talent to field a winner so I beg to disagree it has yet to be proven he's a loser. This is a guy whose consistently been handed crap in bad situations and asked to hold things over and never gotten a real opportunity. In fact, I like a lot of things I see about the system being used that I believe if the players are adequate and execute it properly it's a winning system.

As far as loving mediocrity I disagree there too. I gave up my season tickets six years ago because I could see the writing on the wall. I don't buy merchandise or the Sunday Ticket. I am very critical of the management and ownership of the organization. I hate mediocrity. You are the one that loves mediocrity as you are willing to constantly throw away coaches and systems when they aren't successful without considering they aren't being put in a position to succeed.

Then you are going to buy your expensive tickets next year because there is a new coaching staff based on the hope they will do any good. The real problem has not been addressed. You are an enabler just like the drinking buddy who brings over a case of beer to the alcoholic whose trying to quit drinking.

[Typ0]

Here is how the Cowher interview would go:

BC: What about this cash to the crap philosophy? I want to coach a winner we need to change the way you manage your roster.

RW: Sorry, we can't change that it's the only way we can succeed in this market.

BC: Thanks for having me in.