WTF.. Lee Evans vs NE

[patmoran2006]

I knew the numbers were bad, but I never knew they were THAT BAD.

Lee EVans has played NE 9 times, has NEVER scored a TD and averages a whopping 34 yards per game receiving.

How the hell does a team shut down a #1 WR like that, THAT consistently???

[warsawbassman]

Because Evans has never been, and never will be a #1 receiver in the NFL. He's a great #2, but thats it. Kind of a 1 trick pony too, take away the long ball and take him away.

[Nighthawk]

I knew the numbers were bad, but I never knew they were THAT BAD.

Lee EVans has played NE 9 times, has NEVER scored a TD and averages a whopping 34 yards per game receiving.

How the hell does a team shut down a #1 WR like that, THAT consistently???


Good coaching on the NE side, bad coaching on Buffalo side. Case closed.

[Philagape]

Evans is the easiest "No. 1" receiver to stop. There's no other receiver a defense has to worry about, and he's not good enough to beat extra attention.

[Kenny]

Because Evans has never been, and never will be a #1 receiver in the NFL. He's a great #2, but thats it. Kind of a 1 trick pony too, take away the long ball and take him away.

Or... he's yet to be paired with a good and consistent QB to throw him the ball.

[Crisis]

i think evans can be more than a 1 trick pony deep threat, he can work the middle of the field as well as almost anyone...he's just never had the consistent QB play...and im just guessing but if u look at our QB's stats for the same games they're probably just as bad/worse...i mean we haven't beat them in 10 tries..

[yordad]

I think if Lee was in Indy, Arizona, or even Cincy, he would be blowing it up! He is one of the last WRs in the league a DB wants to be put on an island with.

[yordad]

I went to one game this year. The Cleveland game. He was wwiiiiddee open most of the game. He ended with zero catches, and zero balls thrown his way. I think the opposite WR has a lot to do with it, but it is mostly the QB. You don't get that view on TV.

[Mr. Pink]

Lee Evans simply isn't as good as people around here like/want to think he is.

Would be a great complimentary WR but he's a weak number 1.

For anyone who says "oh it's the QB that limits his ability and production" go look at Kevin Johnson's stats from Tim Couch throwing him the ball, look at Roddy Whites stats from a plethora of garbage QBs throwing him the ball last year, look at Andre Johnson's stats from when David Carr threw him the ball.

Unless you're willing to make the argument that Chris Redman, Joey Harrington, Tim Couch and David Carr are better than Trent and/or JP...the argument that it's the QB that limits Lee's productivity holds no water.

[Night Train]

Jerry Rice in his prime would have the exact same stats, if he played for this team in this Bills era.

Keep ignoring the real problems of coaching,playcalling,surrounding talent etc.

[Mr. Pink]

Jerry Rice in his prime would have the exact same stats, if he played for this team in this Bills era.

Keep ignoring the real problems of coaching,playcalling,surrounding talent etc.


Great playerx elevate the play of those around them and get numbers regardless.

Jerry Rice, at age 41, with Rick Mirer throwing him the ball most of the season had more catches than Lee will have this year.

Or is Bill Callahan a better coach than Dick?

Mirer, Gannon, Tuiasoppo better than Edwards/Losman?

Bad comparison.

[yordad]

Yeah Gannon sucked. Wait... no he didn't.

You know Callahan was an offensive mind, and Juaron is supposed to be a defensive one, right?

Funtimes, were you at the Browns game? TE was afraid to throw over 5 yards. I'm pretty sure a speed/deep threat WR is going to have suffering numbers if the QB is afraid to throw over 5 yards.

Oh, and who was opposite Rice? Oh, and you did say JERRY RICE, right? You know Callahan took them to the SUPER BOWL, right?

[Night Train]

Great playerx elevate the play of those around them and get numbers regardless.

Jerry Rice, at age 41, with Rick Mirer throwing him the ball most of the season had more catches than Lee will have this year.

Or is Bill Callahan a better coach than Dick?

Mirer, Gannon, Tuiasoppo better than Edwards/Losman?

Bad comparison.

Bill Callahn went to a SB. Rice with the Raiders had a WR by the name of Tim Brown playing opposite of him. Ever hear of him ?

You're right. Bad comparison :rofl:

A reach of epic proportions.

[Mr. Pink]

Yeah Gannon sucked. Wait... no he didn't.

You know Callahan was an offensive mind, and Juaron is supposed to be a defensive one, right?

Funtimes, were you at the Browns game? TE was afraid to throw over 5 yards. I'm pretty sure a speed/deep threat WR is going to have suffering numbers if the QB is afraid to throw over 5 yards.

Oh, and who was opposite Rice? Oh, and you did say JERRY RICE, right?

It was Gannon's second to last season, he played like garbage.

1274 yards 6 TDs 4 INTs in 7 games.

It was Jerry Rice and Tim Brown...Tim was 37 and played one more year after that.

I was replying to the the post that said Jerry Rice wouldn't be able to put up numbers during his prime with the QBs, coaching, etc here. I used what he did as a 41 year old on an even worse team to disprove it.

Bill Callahan for being such an offensive mind went a whopping 4-12 that season too and hasn't coached in the NFL since.

So you use one game, the Browns game, to say that Lee is getting a raw deal?

He's had over 60 catches in a season ONCE in his entire career. Now if he gets 2 catches Sunday he'll have a 2nd 60+ catch year but still.

For such an "elite" guy, he averages 58 catches a year for 930 yards and 6 TDs.

You can find average WRs in the league who do that. Carl Pickens did that back with the Bengals in the 90's when they weren't very good. Al Toon did that back with the Jets in the 80s-90s. Eddie Kennison was just under that pace for his career.

[Mr. Pink]

Bill Callahn went to a SB. Rice with the Raiders had a WR by the name of Tim Brown playing opposite of him. Ever hear of him ?

You're right. Bad comparison :rofl:

A reach of epic proportions.

A reach?

Bill Callahan was 4-12 that year. Brown retired after the following season. He was 37. Rick Mirer started half the season.

Jerry Rice in his second season with Jeff Kemp and Mike Moroski starting half the games for an injured Joe Montana broke out with 86 catches for 1500 yards. By the way, that season was Joe Montana's worst season as a pro too.

Meanwhile that was the 49er team that got spanked in the divisonal round by the Giants 49-3.

Is that a reach too? Are Jeff Kemp and Mike Moroski great QBs? Does Joe Montana throwing more picks than TDs not matter? BTW only time in Joe's career he threw more INTs than TDs in a season too.

Elite WRs put up numbers regardless.

[yordad]

It was Gannon's second to last season, he played like garbage.

1274 yards 6 TDs 4 INTs in 7 games.

It was Jerry Rice and Tim Brown...Tim was 37 and played one more year after that.

I was replying to the the post that said Jerry Rice wouldn't be able to put up numbers during his prime with the QBs, coaching, etc here. I used what he did as a 41 year old on an even worse team to disprove it.

Bill Callahan for being such an offensive mind went a whopping 4-12 that season too and hasn't coached in the NFL since.

So you use one game, the Browns game, to say that Lee is getting a raw deal?

He's had over 60 catches in a season ONCE in his entire career. Now if he gets 2 catches Sunday he'll have a 2nd 60+ catch year but still.

For such an "elite" guy, he averages 58 catches a year for 930 yards and 6 TDs.

You can find average WRs in the league who do that. Carl Pickens did that back with the Bengals in the 90's when they weren't very good. Al Toon did that back with the Jets in the 80s-90s. Eddie Kennison was just under that pace for his career.I picked the Browns game becasue it was the only game I went to. It was the only opportunity I had to see the entire feild. And, it just so happened TE didn't throw to Lee once the entire game.

My guess is they didn't just do that because I was there. And, I will assume you didn't attend. I will also venture a guess that Lee is ignored semi regularly by a QB who seems afraid at times to make a throw. In fact, someone (I think Ed Kilgore) asked TE if he was afraid to throw it at his press conference later that week. TE said "well, that's your opinion", and Kilgore responded with "Actually, it is a widely held belief". And, if you think I'm making this up, ya betta ask somebody. I bet the conference is on BB.com. But, you wouldn't have had a chance to ask Lee, he bloted after the game without speaking to the press.

[Mr. Pink]

I picked the Browns game becasue it was the only game I went to. It was the only opportunity I had to see the entire feild. And, it just so happened TE didn't throw to Lee once the entire game.

My guess is they didn't just do that because I was there. And, I will assume you didn't attend. I will also venture a guess that Lee is ignored semi regularly by a QB who seems afraid at times to make a throw. In fact, someone (I think Ed Kilgore) asked TE if he was afraid to throw it at his press conference later that week. TE said "well, that's your opinion", and Kilgore responded with "Actually, it is a widely held belief". And, if you think I'm making this up, ya betta ask somebody. I bet the conference is on BB.com. But, you wouldn't have had a chance to ask Lee, he bloted after the game without speaking to the press.

Oh there's plenty of times he's open and doesn't get thrown the ball. Guess what? Other WRs have that happen to them too.

How many highlights do you see league-wide not just here where there's a guy standing wide open and the QB for whatever reason doesn't see him?

It's more obvious when you get the me first type of players. Randy back when he was in Raiderland, T.O. and MeShawn Johnson for example.

You can easily say even those guys above had at least 15-20 more catches they missed out on, a year, because the QB didn't see them.

[TacklingDummy]

Lee is one of the biggest disappointments on the roster this year. There is no doubt/debate about it.

[yordad]

Oh there's plenty of times he's open and doesn't get thrown the ball. Guess what? Other WRs have that happen to them too.

How many highlights do you see league-wide not just here where there's a guy standing wide open and the QB for whatever reason doesn't see him?

It's more obvious when you get the me first type of players. Randy back when he was in Raiderland, T.O. and MeShawn Johnson for example.

You can easily say even those guys above had at least 15-20 more catches they missed out on, a year, because the QB didn't see them.Well, I seen about 15-20 in that one game. TE wasn't even looking his way. Lee is the #1, how does TE not look his way!?! Straight scared. Scared to throw long. Scared to stand in the pocket. Scared to throw his 4 pic of the evening.

The guy can't throw himself the ball.

Lets review.

1). He is open
2). He catches almost everything
3). The balls aren't being passed his way
4). He is beating double coverages
5). He has no opposite field held
6). He has little underneath help
7). The Bills plans to move him around and utilize him more has never materialized

Yep, must be his fault. He sucks.

[Mr. Pink]

Well, I seen about 15-20 in that one game. TE wasn't even looking his way. Lee is the #1, how does TE not look his way!?! Straight scared. Scared to throw long. Scared to stand in the pocket. Scared to throw his 4 pic of the evening.

Again, that's 1 game...

I averaged out his stats over a 5 year career to show he puts up "average" numbers.

Josh Reed the past two seasons has 8 less catches than Evans. In 10 less starts.

Reed has 105 catches, Lee has 113.

Shouldn't your number 1 be head and shoulders above your number 2? Especially when your number 2 wouldn't be a number 2 on almost any other team in the league.

I know, I know, Lee doesn't get the ball because QBs don't see him open and he gets constant doubles so people just shift coverage to him and make someone else beat you.

But explain how Andre Johnson averages 80 catches a year with QBs and a coaching staff worse than ours surrounded by an even weaker cast. The year Andre had 108 catches, an over the hill diminished skilled EMo was the number 2.

Or explain Roddy White and what he did last year w/ Harrington, Redman and Leftwich at QB. And a number 2 WR that's no different than Josh Reed.

How about Kevin Johnson in 1999? Numbers that are a little above Evans career average with Tim Couch throwing him the ball and Darrin Chiaverinni as the number 2. If you've never heard of Darrin, I won't hold it against you. In fact, if you're not a Browns fan I'd be surprised if you even ever heard of him.

All three examples I used above, one superstar, one good player and one completely average player outperformed Lee on a worse team w/ just as bad if not worse QBing and HC's that never got another NFL HC job.

[yordad]

But explain how Andre Johnson averages 80 catches a year with QBs and a coaching staff worse than ours surrounded by an even weaker cast. The year Andre had 108 catches, an over the hill diminished skilled EMo was the number 2.

Or explain Roddy White and what he did last year w/ Harrington, Redman and Leftwich at QB. And a number 2 WR that's no different than Josh Reed.
Which one of those QBs at times is afraid to throw longer then 5 yards?

Oh, and did I mention Andre Johnson is a straight BEAST. He IS the last guy a DB wants to be on an island against.

[Mr. Pink]

Which one of those QBs at times is afraid to throw longer then 5 yards?

Oh, and did I mention Andre Johnson is a straight BEAST. He IS the last guy a DB wants to be on an island against.

Did you ever watch David Carr, Joey Harrington, Chris Redman, Byron Leftwich, Tim Couch play?

I'm sure you did.

Those are the QBs who are responsible for getting Andre, Kevin and Roddy the ball.

I'm also sure you'll admit they all sucked and were nothing special. Yet the WRs still put up numbers anyways.

And hell, Kevin Johnson isn't even in the league anymore.

I can give more and more examples, it's overwhelming honestly, but I don't want to put up a 50 line post of QB-WR combo's w/ WRs that NO ONE would ever call elite.

Like Bobby Hebert to Eric Martin or Steve Grogan to Stanley Morgan or Vinnie Testaverde to Mark Carrier in the TB and CLE days. All put up identical numbers as the illustrious JP/Edwards to Lee Evans combination.

The better part is all those combos are from 20 years ago...and the NFL is even more wide open now than it was then.

Like I said Lee would be a nice complimentary WR but a true number 1 he is not.

[yordad]

Well, as usual, we disagree. It's all good.

[The Jokeman]

I've always likened Lee Evans to Terry Glenn, yes both can be #1 WR but better suited to be the #2 option.

[HHURRICANE]

I knew the numbers were bad, but I never knew they were THAT BAD.

Lee EVans has played NE 9 times, has NEVER scored a TD and averages a whopping 34 yards per game receiving.

How the hell does a team shut down a #1 WR like that, THAT consistently???

Evans is one of the most overrayed players on this team. Bellichek doesn't even worry about him because he knows he can't beat double coverage.

Josh Reed is actually more of a threat than Evans.

Evans needs a solid #2 or it's going to be the same thing year after year.

[Mahdi]

I knew the numbers were bad, but I never knew they were THAT BAD.

Lee EVans has played NE 9 times, has NEVER scored a TD and averages a whopping 34 yards per game receiving.

How the hell does a team shut down a #1 WR like that, THAT consistently???
Think that has more to do with the fact that our QB is usually on the ground when we play NE.

[Mr. Pink]

Think that has more to do with the fact that our QB is usually on the ground when we play NE.


Really?

Edwards has been sacked 3 times in two meetings vs the Pats.

Losman has been sacked 11 times in four meetings vs the Pats.

Holcomb sacked 2 times in one meeting vs the Pats.

Bledsoe skews the stats a TON as he was sacked 8 times in two meetings.

So, in Evans tenure here, our QBs have been sacked 24 times in 9 games.

With Bledsoe, the QBs have been sacked 2.8 times a game.

Without, it's at 2.3 times a game.

I don't think that equals usually on the ground.

[Mahdi]

Really?

Edwards has been sacked 3 times in two meetings vs the Pats.

Losman has been sacked 11 times in four meetings vs the Pats.

Holcomb sacked 2 times in one meeting vs the Pats.

Bledsoe skews the stats a TON as he was sacked 8 times in two meetings.

So, in Evans tenure here, our QBs have been sacked 24 times in 9 games.

With Bledsoe, the QBs have been sacked 2.8 times a game.

Without, it's at 2.3 times a game.

I don't think that equals usually on the ground.
Stats dont tell the whole story... Do you have stats for how many times our Qbs are hurried, knocked down, pressured etc. That will affect accuracy, throwing lanes, launch point and so on. On top of that, Evans is usually covered underneath and over the top which is a pretty sound plan because then you are daring the Bills to beat you with Reed, Parrish and Royal. I take that as a defense any day and the Pats have.


That being said, at the end of the day, it really comes down to QB play and our Qbs have been below average since Kelly left, I really dont expect any below average QB to beat the Pats defense, do you?

[Mahdi]

Did you ever watch David Carr, Joey Harrington, Chris Redman, Byron Leftwich, Tim Couch play?

I'm sure you did.

Those are the QBs who are responsible for getting Andre, Kevin and Roddy the ball.

I'm also sure you'll admit they all sucked and were nothing special. Yet the WRs still put up numbers anyways.

And hell, Kevin Johnson isn't even in the league anymore.

I can give more and more examples, it's overwhelming honestly, but I don't want to put up a 50 line post of QB-WR combo's w/ WRs that NO ONE would ever call elite.

Like Bobby Hebert to Eric Martin or Steve Grogan to Stanley Morgan or Vinnie Testaverde to Mark Carrier in the TB and CLE days. All put up identical numbers as the illustrious JP/Edwards to Lee Evans combination.

The better part is all those combos are from 20 years ago...and the NFL is even more wide open now than it was then.

Like I said Lee would be a nice complimentary WR but a true number 1 he is not.
You talk as if Evans is targeted often and drops the ball or runs incorrect routes or something. The guy is rarely thrown to in the first place. In most offenses in the league Evans would be a star.

[Mr. Pink]

Stats dont tell the whole story... Do you have stats for how many times our Qbs are hurried, knocked down, pressured etc. That will affect accuracy, throwing lanes, launch point and so on. On top of that, Evans is usually covered underneath and over the top which is a pretty sound plan because then you are daring the Bills to beat you with Reed, Parrish and Royal. I take that as a defense any day and the Pats have.


That being said, at the end of the day, it really comes down to QB play and our Qbs have been below average since Kelly left, I really dont expect any below average QB to beat the Pats defense, do you?

Well from 04-06 the Dolphins beat them. And their offenses in that time period weren't good. If they could win, we should be able to too.

So yes, a below average QB can beat them, it has been done.

As you saw earlier in the thread I posted WRs who posted numbers despite not having a number 2 worth jack, terrible QBs and not a good coaching staff.

What do Lynn Dickey and Jim Zorn have in common? Besides being below average NFL starting QBs...they both were the QB for the majority of two HOF WRs careers in Lofton and Largent respectively.

Elite WRs get open and get their catches regardless of who the other options in the offense are. Like rushing, getting a 1000 yards receiving in a season isn't all that difficult anymore. Evans doesn't even average that over his career.

[Mr. Pink]

You talk as if Evans is targeted often and drops the ball or runs incorrect routes or something. The guy is rarely thrown to in the first place. In most offenses in the league Evans would be a star.

In most offenses in the league Evans would be the number 2.

On a bad offense with not a lot of weapons he doesn't stick out and shine head and shoulders above anyone else.

As I posted....

Last two seasons...Josh Reed 105 catches...Lee Evans 113.

IF Reed wasn't hurt earlier in the year, he'd have more catches than Evans in the past two seasons. Sad part, I could still see him have more catches the past two years after Sunday anyways.

That's what you call a star type player?

He's almost being outperformed by a WR more known for his blocking than anything else.

[Marvelous]

I knew the numbers were bad, but I never knew they were THAT BAD.

Lee EVans has played NE 9 times, has NEVER scored a TD and averages a whopping 34 yards per game receiving.

How the hell does a team shut down a #1 WR like that, THAT consistently???
-I got news, well it shouldn't be news for the super smart diehards here,,but Lee EVans get shut-out ALOT...
---Guys,,, did we make a mistake by resigning Lee Evans??
--Here me out before damning my soul to hell.. Josh Reed,Reed,Josh Reed!!! That's all i ever freaking here when Trent Edwards is at the helm. :lol: Lets face it as F-A-C-T--He loves the clutch factor of Josh Reed 10x more then the showbiz,deepness, SPEED of Lee Evans...More proof is the way he nails SHouman,Fine,Freddy Jackson,Lynch,Royal ALOT... shorties dumpoffs!! And Josh Reed is the same thing as our TE's & backs outta the backfield etc ONLY BETTER & tad faster.. or better because he has the advantage cause he lines up as a WR instead of backfield,,,TE,,etc....

----As miserable as this sounds guys,,,We shoulda focused on TJ Houshmanzadeh(did i spell it right?lol))... Housh is top 3 clutch guys who aren't speed burners..Reggie Wayne & Bolden & Roy WIlliams are in this type o' WR.....THESE SUIT Trent Edwards better since it's obvious that his arm is not a cannon like JP's..And it's possible that Trent is a tad in-secure about his arm-strength-deep ball,,,so he avoids it...
BUT THAT's KILLING US because Evans is freaking A-W-E-S-O-M-E....So whata we do? We have Evans & there are NO options for not having Evans.....My thinking was---""""Even Trent Edwards ignoring Lee EVANS,,tHE DEFENSES do-not/DON'T,,so that free's up Reed & the rest of teh offense..

[Mahdi]

In most offenses in the league Evans would be the number 2.

On a bad offense with not a lot of weapons he doesn't stick out and shine head and shoulders above anyone else.

As I posted....

Last two seasons...Josh Reed 105 catches...Lee Evans 113.

IF Reed wasn't hurt earlier in the year, he'd have more catches than Evans in the past two seasons. Sad part, I could still see him have more catches the past two years after Sunday anyways.

That's what you call a star type player?

He's almost being outperformed by a WR more known for his blocking than anything else.
Comparing Zorn/Largent to Losman/Edwards/Evans does not explain or have any bearing on how Lee Evans is doing.

We all know what Lee Evans abilities are. He creates separation on most routes. Losman and Edwards have been gun shy and inconsistent and have played like young QBs.

Evans does not get targeted enough and when he does, he will make more plays. Common man, our QBs sit in the pocket with 5 seconds to throw and end up getting sacked or throwing picks, is that who you are banking on getting the ball to Evans?

By the way... Chris Redman did a great job last year he just wasn't the future for the Falcons. That being said, what he did for the falcons last year also has nothing to do with Evans' situation.

[Mr. Pink]

Comparing Zorn/Largent to Losman/Edwards/Evans does not explain or have any bearing on how Lee Evans is doing.

We all know what Lee Evans abilities are. He creates separation on most routes. Losman and Edwards have been gun shy and inconsistent and have played like young QBs.

Evans does not get targeted enough and when he does, he will make more plays. Common man, our QBs sit in the pocket with 5 seconds to throw and end up getting sacked or throwing picks, is that who you are banking on getting the ball to Evans?

By the way... Chris Redman did a great job last year he just wasn't the future for the Falcons. That being said, what he did for the falcons last year also has nothing to do with Evans' situation.

Alright so comparing other WR-QB combos in the league doesn't hold any relevancy, gotcha. We can't expect the THIRD HIGHEST paid WR in the league to put up numbers that even equate to top 15 because he's held back by our ineptitude. Alright. Fine.

Then explain how Josh Reed has 8 less catches than superstar elite Evans the past two seasons. Should Josh Reed get paid 9 million a year next contract? Based on performance, Evans vs Reed, Reed is vastly underpaid.

Fact is, Evans is highly overrated by the fanbase and is highly overpaid too.

[Marvelous]

Alright so comparing other WR-QB combos in the league doesn't hold any relevancy, gotcha. We can't expect the THIRD HIGHEST paid WR in the league to put up numbers that even equate to top 15 because he's held back by our ineptitude. Alright. Fine.

Then explain how Josh Reed has 8 less catches than superstar elite Evans the past two seasons. Should Josh Reed get paid 9 million a year next contract? Based on performance, Evans vs Reed, Reed is vastly underpaid.

Fact is, Evans is highly overrated by the fanbase and is highly overpaid too.
:posrep:
wow! agreed bro..
---I think it's more EVans is overpaid then Reed being under..Reed is reliable & have we ever touched on this? Josh Reed is a CLASS-ACT! I've never heaRD this dude *****.
---See my post above about why i think Reed gets the attempts over Evans with Trent Edwards at the helm..Edwards throws short & Josh Reed hasn't caugght a pass over 30 yards in 5 years(sarcasm).... I think it's teh type of reciever that Trent Edwards likes in Reed, INSTEAD of him just likeing Josh Reed himself....
-----Sucks but it is what it is...So isn't it stupid/******ed to not build around Trent Edwards strengths?? Lee Evans can stretch and free up medium passes IMO...
---Still though, I keep thinking that, WHAT-IF. What-if we had a possesion reciever better then Josh Reed?
----There's is Schouman & Steve Johnson from Kentucky. They both showed signs that they are up & coming.
-----What we are missing is a Brian Leonard type of Full-Back that can catch 6+-ish passes a game..Our FB's ahave really been pathetic. Since we lack a super-star TE, it's so obvious that a FB like NE's Evans would make Trent Edwards very very happy...Is this obvious, or have i just set my mind to it? Cause i've been saying this for about 4 years now about us needing a pass catching stud, rookie FB to comliment our ignoring the TE position. * i do agree with ignoring the TE position in the 1st round because we are always in dire need of skilled positions like CB etc...