Proof that coaching and front office trumps talent

[Owen DeBoard]

Take a look at the Dallas Cowboys. Most talented team on paper and not getting into the playoffs. The biggest loss for them last offseason was not a player but a man named Bill Parcels.

[X-Era]

Take a look at the Dallas Cowboys. Most talented team on paper and not getting into the playoffs. The biggest loss for them last offseason was not a player but a man named Bill Parcels.

Agree, talent wont do it all, but it helps :up:

I want sweeping changes at ALL levels, not just talent. But if we go our typical newbie HC route, we better get much much better on talent level or we are doomed to more of the same.

[madness]

Proof that consistant QB play trumps all the above???

[Owen DeBoard]

Agree, talent wont do it all, but it helps :up:

I want sweeping changes at ALL levels, not just talent. But if we go our typical newbie HC route, we better get much much better on talent level or we are doomed to more of the same.
I mean seriously Dallas is loaded with talent on both sides of the ball. They have a guy on defense that could have broke the sack record this year and have an explosive offense as any other team in the league.

[BILLSROCK1212]

Take a look at the Dallas Cowboys. Most talented team on paper and not getting into the playoffs. The biggest loss for them last offseason was not a player but a man named Bill Parcels.
don't forget the 'Skins as well

[X-Era]

I mean seriously Dallas is loaded with talent on both sides of the ball. They have a guy on defense that could have broke the sack record this year and have an explosive offense as any other team in the league.

OK, and?

Take a huge chunk of talent off that squad and you have a 7-9 team at best behind Wade.

[Owen DeBoard]

Proof that consistant QB play trumps all the above???
Oh yeah how about Pittsburgh Steelers. If Dallas used their running game like they should they would be winning. How hard is it to understand that you cant just ride a qb to a championship. Look at what Indy did a couple of years back. IMO they have the best qb in the league and that year there rushing helped them. Same as win the Steelers won their superbowl. How about the Pats last year they had the best qb in the league right? Did that win them a championship? It helps to have a good qb but it aint everything.

[Owen DeBoard]

don't forget the 'Skins as well
Good point.

[X-Era]

Good point.

OK, and?

Your solution is what?

continue to sign newbie HC's or guys with losing records and then sign second tier FA's?

[Owen DeBoard]

Proof that consistant QB play trumps all the above???
Oh yeah and cant forget how about Drew Brees. Look at the year he had and not even close to getting in the playoffs.

[Owen DeBoard]

OK, and?

Your solution is what?

continue to sign newbie HC's or guys with losing records and then sign second tier FA's?
Would you rather hire a proven loser head coach that the Detroit Lions wouldnt keep as their coach?

[madness]

Oh yeah how about Pittsburgh Steelers. If Dallas used their running game like they should they would be winning. How hard is it to understand that you cant just ride a qb to a championship. Look at what Indy did a couple of years back. IMO they have the best qb in the league and that year there rushing helped them. Same as win the Steelers won their superbowl. How about the Pats last year they had the best qb in the league right? Did that win them a championship? It helps to have a good qb but it aint everything.

:shakeno:

I didn't say a great QB wins SB's. Even the Steelers had consistant QB play during their SB run.

The fact of the matter is you can't win without it. Even with a dominate run game the Titans still went with Collins over Young. Why?????

With Collins they knew they would get....

[X-Era]

Would you rather hire a proven loser head coach that the Detroit Lions wouldnt keep as their coach?

Still dodging

Your solution is what?

[Owen DeBoard]

Still dodging

Your solution is what?
I havent been dodging nothin my stance is that we fire Jauron and bring in any coach that doesnt have a proven losing record. I would take Bobby April. He already knows the systems if we dont need to change them and he knows most of the players and brings alot more emtion to this team. Anyone but Jauron and a proven loser head coach.

[X-Era]

I havent been dodging nothin my stance is that we fire Jauron and bring in any coach that doesnt have a proven losing record. I would take Bobby April. He already knows the systems if we dont need to change them and he knows most of the players and brings alot more emtion to this team. Anyone but Jauron and a proven loser head coach.

Same talent level, and any new coach without a losing record?

[Owen DeBoard]

:shakeno:

I didn't say a great QB wins SB's. Even the Steelers had consistant QB play during their SB run.

The fact of the matter is you can't win without it. Even with a dominate run game the Titans still went with Collins over Young. Why?????

With Collins they knew they would get....
If consistent qb being trumps all tell me what happened to the Saints. Drew Brees was consistent all year.

[Owen DeBoard]

Same talent level, and any new coach without a losing record?
Ill take a new coach without a losing record over talent any day. Didnt you see with your own eyes that coaching costed us about 4 games this year not to metion the Dallas game last year?

[BillyT92679]

It's both coaching AND talent. Talent gets teams to be at least 5th or 6th seeds... playmakers do enough to mask deficiencies on teams and carry teams on their backs, while great coaching puts already good teams over the top... great coaching is about outduelling other teams... giving them enough nuance to separate the best from the almost best. You could have Lombardi out there, but if you have nothing but tomato cans the best you'll ever do is 10-6 and no playoffs. You can scheme to death, but 7 times out of 10 the better team will win. Talent and coaching are both direct results of front offices that know what they are doing.

[Owen DeBoard]

All you have to do is take Miami for example and youll find all of the answers there.

[X-Era]

Ill take a new coach without a losing record over talent any day. Didnt you see with your own eyes that coaching costed us about 4 games this year not to metion the Dallas game last year?

Not a complete answer.

I aksed if your willing to keep the overall talent level the same and just add any new coach without a losing record.

Do we need significant upgrades on talent level

[BillyT92679]

But Miami has talent... and Pennington today is better than Edwards. Next year maybe not, but upgrading from John Beck is like going from Single A to the Major Leagues. Joey Porter is better than any Bills defensive player.

[Owen DeBoard]

It's both coaching AND talent. Talent gets teams to be at least 5th or 6th seeds... playmakers do enough to mask deficiencies on teams and carry teams on their backs, while great coaching puts already good teams over the top... great coaching is about outduelling other teams... giving them enough nuance to separate the best from the almost best. You could have Lombardi out there, but if you have nothing but tomato cans the best you'll ever do is 10-6 and no playoffs. You can scheme to death, but 7 times out of 10 the better team will win. Talent and coaching are both direct results of front offices that know what they are doing.
If these players dont have talent then what are they doin in the NFL. Every player has talent or they wouldnt be in the NFL.

[X-Era]

If these players dont have talent then what are they doin in the NFL. Every player has talent or they wouldnt be in the NFL.
Thats a weak response man.

Theres an obvious difference between Suggs and Ellison as an example.

You know what Im asking you.

Are you saying we can sign ANY HC without a losing record, keep the talent level the same or similar, and expect more wins?

[BillyT92679]

But there are gradations of talent. The Bills have a bunch of ordinary NFL football players, many of whom would not be backups on other teams. Keith Ellison, Ryan Denney, Derrick Dockery, Duke Preston, none of these guys would be the primary backups on the Giants. I know the league is watered-down today, but still. Is Lee Evans a viable number one? Josh Reed a two? Plus what kind of depth do the Bills have... Copeland Bryan, Blake Costanzo? Special teams players one injury away from playing.

[Owen DeBoard]

But Miami has talent... and Pennington today is better than Edwards. Next year maybe not, but upgrading from John Beck is like going from Single A to the Major Leagues. Joey Porter is better than any Bills defensive player.
Ok if you say Joey Porter is better than any Bills defensive player what are you basing that on sacks? Sure cant be tackles because look how many tackles he has.

[X-Era]

But there are gradations of talent. The Bills have a bunch of ordinary NFL football players, many of whom would not be backups on other teams. Keith Ellison, Ryan Denney, Derrick Dockery, Duke Preston, none of these guys would be the primary backups on the Giants. I know the league is watered-down today, but still. Is Lee Evans a viable number one? Josh Reed a two? Plus what kind of depth do the Bills have... Copeland Bryan, Blake Costanzo? Special teams players one injury away from playing.

Overall, thats my point but I disagree on Evans and Dockery... they are better than you give them credit for.

Digi? Corto? Ellison? thats 3 of our 6, 53 man roster LB'ers.

[Owen DeBoard]

Thats a weak response man.

Theres an obvious difference between Suggs and Ellison as an example.

You know what Im asking you.

Are you saying we can sign ANY HC without a losing record, keep the talent level the same or similar, and expect more wins?
Sure can how many times do I have to tell you that the coaching has costed us at least 3 wins maybe 4 with this same talent we have. If you want to talk about talent then what went wrong with Dallas, Washington, and New Orleans to name a few.:drama:

[BillyT92679]

Well sure... sacks are game-changing statistics. I don't care if Posluszny has 150 tackles if only 6 of them were behind the line of scrimmage. A very positive takeaway-giveaway, sacks, good third and fourth down conversion percentages, and total points... that's what makes a great defense. Is it Perry and Dick somewhat, of course! But the players have to make a difference... they have to be the ones who step up.

[Owen DeBoard]

Well sure... sacks are game-changing statistics. I don't care if Posluszny has 150 tackles if only 6 of them were behind the line of scrimmage. A very positive takeaway-giveaway, sacks, good third and fourth down conversion percentages, and total points... that's what makes a great defense. Is it Perry and Dick somewhat, of course! But the players have to make a difference... they have to be the ones who step up.
Ok well Kawika Mitchell has 2 more interceptions than him and those are game changing plays for example. Its hard to compare players like that.

[X-Era]

Sure can how many times do I have to tell you that the coaching has costed us at least 3 wins maybe 4 with this same talent we have. If you want to talk about talent then what went wrong with Dallas, Washington, and New Orleans to name a few.:drama:

K, humor me:

You have now officially said that this team, not the Fins, not the Cowboys, not any other team can keep the same average level of talent, sign a HC with no HC experience and be better than we have been...

:rolleyes:

You STILL havent seen enough to know better yet huh? Well the good news is that your likely to see more of the same so maybe in a few years, you will finally scrap that plan.

[Owen DeBoard]

K, humor me:

You have now officially said that this team, not the Fins, not the Cowboys, not any other team can keep the same average level of talent, sign a HC with no HC experience and be better than we have been...

:rolleyes:

You STILL havent seen enough to know better yet huh? Well the good news is that your likely to see more of the same so maybe in a few years, you will finally scrap that plan.
I answered your questions im still waiting for an answer about the talent in Dallas, Washington, and New Orleans.:bringit:

[Owen DeBoard]

Ok maybe this is what your looking for. If our talent is so bad then why is it that we seem to always be in the game until the fourth quarter instead of always getting blown out.

[X-Era]

I answered your questions im still waiting for an answer about the talent in Dallas, Washington, and New Orleans.:bringit:

NO has no excuse period. Reggie is likely a bust and it pains me to say that (I liked him a ton at USC).

Wash and Dallas will both spend anything on anyone regradless of age or character if they think it may help... well, it doesnt work or hasnt for them.

But if you want to have a GM who has never been one, a HC who has never been one, and average talent on THIS team and expect more wins???

Sorry man but thats hillarious.

No one wants to spend dumb money.

But tell me how Suggs, or Peppers or even Haynesworth doesnt make us better day one. THAT is the level of upgrade that we should be talking about.

Id take just ONE, just ONE player on D as good as Joey Porter for example.

[X-Era]

Ok maybe this is what your looking for. If our talent is so bad then why is it that we seem to always be in the game until the fourth quarter instead of always getting blown out.

We arent the worst in the league by any means, we arent Detroit.

But without significant changes, I'm not sure we will EVER beat NE again.

NE beats us, close, blowout, whatever... they beat us. And we cant think seriously about the playoff until we can at least reliably spilt with them.

You cant feed me average and get me to spin it into gold, I just wont do it anymore.

[madness]

If consistent qb being trumps all tell me what happened to the Saints. Drew Brees was consistent all year.

It obviously doesn't make up for a terrible defense and non-existant running game.

[Owen DeBoard]

NO has no excuse period. Reggie is likely a bust and it pains me to say that (I liked him a ton at USC).

Wash and Dallas will both spend anything on anyone regradless of age or character if they think it may help... well, it doesnt work or hasnt for them.

But if you want to have a GM who has never been one, a HC who has never been one, and average talent on THIS team and expect more wins???

Sorry man but thats hillarious.

No one wants to spend dumb money.

But tell me how Suggs, or Peppers or even Haynesworth doesnt make us better day one. THAT is the level of upgrade that we should be talking about.

Id take just ONE, just ONE player on D as good as Joey Porter for example.
I never said a GM who has never been one but yes a coach look no further than Sporano. I do believe I said in the start of this thread the reason why Dallas is what they are is because Parcells aint there no more. I want a gm with experience. I would love to have any of those guys you metioned but I truely believe this team needs a head coach more than talent right now and yes they do need more talent and that will come with a new coach. Im not trying to call you out so dont take it personal its just my opinion.

[Owen DeBoard]

It obviously doesn't make up for a terrible defense and non-existant running game.
Ill give you the Defense aint the greatest but they do have a running game. Piere Thomas, and Duece Staley when healthy are pretty darn good. Bush aint bad either but I wouldnt say hes great like some people did a few years back when he came out in the draft.

[X-Era]

I never said a GM who has never been one but yes a coach look no further than Sporano. I do believe I said in the start of this thread the reason why Dallas is what they are is because Parcells aint there no more. I want a gm with experience. I would love to have any of those guys you metioned but I truely believe this team needs a head coach more than talent right now and yes they do need more talent and that will come with a new coach. Im not trying to call you out so dont take it personal its just my opinion.

And I respect your opinion.

But what you just said was that you want a new GM, wouldnt mind a newbie HC, and also want better talent.

depending on who those people are, I agree that can work... and I have said that over and over.

Thats NOT the same as keeping Russ, hiring McDaniels, and then keeping our talent level the same. Thats all I asked you.

I think its very unlikely that we get to trhe playoffs after keeping our current talent level and hire a newbie HC.

[Owen DeBoard]

And I respect your opinion.

But what you just said was that you want a new GM, wouldnt mind a newbie HC, and also want better talent.

depending on who those people are, I agree that can work... and I have said that over and over.

Thats NOT the same as keeping Russ, hiring McDaniels, and then keeping our talent level the same. Thats all I asked you.

I think its very unlikely that we get to trhe playoffs after keeping our current talent level and hire a newbie HC.
I never said I wanted a new GM but I guess it wouldnt hurt. I just want Jauron gone.

[X-Era]

I never said I wanted a new GM but I guess it wouldnt hurt. I just want Jauron gone.

"I want a gm with experience."

Did I miss something? Russ is a friggin glorified secretary, hes a business man, never been a GM before. We dont have one.

[MikeNC]

Miami, Atlanta and Baltimore made it with rookie coaches, so having a vet coach will not guarantee a winning season. I just want to see someone on the sidelines holding his players and assistants accountable. I just have this gut feeling that Ralph just does not give a crap anymore and you can bet that there is an ownership group in LA or Toronto just waiting for Ralph to drop over...If Ralph cared he would be putting the best product he could assemble on the field, the fans in BUF have stood by this team for a long freekin time and he will not pay us back....

[Owen DeBoard]

"I want a gm with experience."

Did I miss something? Russ is a friggin glorified secretary, hes a business man, never been a GM before. We dont have one.
I dont blame Russ for Jaurons boneheaded playcalling and hes been the GM or whatever he is for 1 year. He brought in Stroud and Mitchell which werent bad free agent signings. Now if he fires Jauron I have no problem with him.

[Mr. Pink]

This team would do a few games better in the standings every year with a better GM who picked better talent to field on Sundays.

Even with Dick at coach.

The biggest problem this team has isn't the coaching, it's the talent evaluators.

Donte Whitner is gonna be garbage no matter who's on the sidelines.

Robert Royal won't catch a pass no matter who's on the sidelines.

We won't generate pass rush with our front four no matter who's on the sidelines.

We won't have a number 2 WR or number 1, depending on how you look at it, no matter who's on the sidelines.

UNLESS

There is a major change to the FO and people in charge of bringing in talent...be it free agency, draft or trade.

[Owen DeBoard]

This team would do a few games better in the standings every year with a better GM who picked better talent to field on Sundays.

Even with Dick at coach.

The biggest problem this team has isn't the coaching, it's the talent evaluators.

Donte Whitner is gonna be garbage no matter who's on the sidelines.

Robert Royal won't catch a pass no matter who's on the sidelines.

We won't generate pass rush with our front four no matter who's on the sidelines.

We won't have a number 2 WR or number 1, depending on how you look at it, no matter who's on the sidelines.

UNLESS

There is a major change to the FO and people in charge of bringing in talent...be it free agency, draft or trade.
We will never agree on this issue. Are you related to Jauron or somethin? If its talent like ive asked in other threads what happen to Dallas, Washington, and New Orleans. They are full of talent. YOU HAVE TO HAVE THE RIGHT COACH FOR THE TALENT YOU HAVE.

[Mr. Pink]

We will never agree on this issue. Are you related to Jauron or somethin? If its talent like ive asked in other threads what happen to Dallas, Washington, and New Orleans. They are full of talent. YOU HAVE TO HAVE THE RIGHT COACH FOR THE TALENT YOU HAVE.

What happened in Dallas is the same thing that happens in Dallas every year...they play sub .500 football in December. Nothing new nor earth shattering. The Cowboys haven't played well in December since Barry Switzer was coach. They're no different now than they were with Tuna or Chan Gailey at HC honestly. Now isn't Tuna a better HC than Wade? Why are the on field results no different? I mean it's coaching that trumps all right.

Washington doesn't do jack because they haven't had competent QB play since Mark Rypien. Unless you think Jason Campbell is good. They haven't won since Joe Gibbs was there the first time. Obviously Gibbs is a better coach than Spurrier or Zorn, but Gibbs in his second go round hasn't fared much, if any, better than those two did. But coaching trumps all right.

New Orleans played in one of the toughest divisions in football, they went 8-8 and finished in last place. They had the best offense but also had one of the worst defenses in the game. It's hard to win consistently in this league when you give up 25 points per game. Again though coaching trumps all!

No other factors matter right?

[Owen DeBoard]

What happened in Dallas is the same thing that happens in Dallas every year...they play sub .500 football in December. Nothing new nor earth shattering. The Cowboys haven't played well in December since Barry Switzer was coach. They're no different now than they were with Tuna or Chan Gailey at HC honestly. Now isn't Tuna a better HC than Wade? Why are the on field results no different? I mean it's coaching that trumps all right.

Washington doesn't do jack because they haven't had competent QB play since Mark Rypien. Unless you think Jason Campbell is good. They haven't won since Joe Gibbs was there the first time. Obviously Gibbs is a better coach than Spurrier or Zorn, but Gibbs in his second go round hasn't fared much, if any, better than those two did. But coaching trumps all right.

New Orleans played in one of the toughest divisions in football, they went 8-8 and finished in last place. They had the best offense but also had one of the worst defenses in the game. It's hard to win consistently in this league when you give up 25 points per game. Again though coaching trumps all!

No other factors matter right?
Dallas made it to the playoffs last year. Same talent actually beter defense this year and failed to make it.
Jason Campbell didnt play all that bad. He had 84.3 passer rating with 12 tds and 6 ints in 15 games. If that aint competent qbing your expectations are to high.
Now your New Orleans excuse is just plain funny. You said competent qb play is the most important part to a team. They got that. Now you are blaming it on them playing in the toughest division in football and defense.

I will say you need talent but if the coaching aint there it dont matter what kind of talent you have cause you aint goin to win.

[billogic99]

Take a look at the Dallas Cowboys. Most talented team on paper and not getting into the playoffs. The biggest loss for them last offseason was not a player but a man named Bill Parcels.

Ummm what about Tony Sparano,Paul Pasqaloni and Jeff Ireland???

[Mitchell55]

Im afraid to get rid of Dick Jauron. Look at this interview and look at Lynchs reaction to when Kelly mentions Dick.


Look at 1:39

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lQcCSLPaRc&feature=related