It's not the coaching, it's the talent

[billsfanone]

Get used to that line. I've seen/read/heard it more than a few times already. From Ralph's mouth to the propaganda rag Shout.

This is their spin to "sell" Jauron to us.

They'll probably throw us a bone or 2 and pick up a few big name FAs.

What will next year's tag line be? After another losing season?

[BlackMetalNinja]

I'd say it's all of the above...

Coaching, Talent, Front Office...

[billsfanone]

While I agree this talent won't/can't win a super bowl, they are better than 7-9 if they didn't have a career loser as a head coach.

[jamze132]

We knows who's fault it isn't... the fans.

[Night Train]

Get used to that line. I've seen/read/heard it more than a few times already. From Ralph's mouth to the propaganda rag Shout.

This is their spin to "sell" Jauron to us.

They'll probably throw us a bone or 2 and pick up a few big name FAs.

What will next year's tag line be? After another losing season?

If Jauron returns, he'll receive an immediate answer from the fans who fail to return their 2009 season ticket invoices. I predict the dropoff would be substantial.

[DraftBoy]

New Front Office solves all these issues.

[Michael82]

IF it's the talent, then it's time to fire Tom Modrak, John Guy and maybe even Russ Brandon. Bring in a real GM, who knows how to run a football team and let him make the decision about the coach.

[justasportsfan]

Another thing, our running game was decent because of talent NOT COACHING. both lynch and Jackson won't go down after contact which makes bails Turk out .

Our schemes don't open holes which makes because our schemes are very predictable. D's know when we're throwing and when we're running because our coaches barely know what a Playaction is.

[Dujek]

It wasn't talent screwed us out of a FG attempt at the end of the first half yesterday. The coaching has been inept to say the least.

[dasaybz]

Give me a QB and we're in the playoffs this year and we aren't even talking about Jauron getting fired.

[TacklingDummy]

Talent on the field can make any coach look good or bad.

[Mitchell55]

How about this. NE with no talent but a HOF HC won the superbowl in 2001 I believe, Dallas and Washington didnt even make the playoffs this year and Dallas had the most probowlers in the NFL a year ago and Washington had 23 probowlers at the end of week 6 voting.

[billogic99]

Get used to that line. I've seen/read/heard it more than a few times already. From Ralph's mouth to the propaganda rag Shout.

This is their spin to "sell" Jauron to us.

They'll probably throw us a bone or 2 and pick up a few big name FAs.

What will next year's tag line be? After another losing season?

It's ownership, coaching and talent. Don't lie to yourself, the Bills need to upgrade all those things.

[LABillsFan]

Is there talent on this team to go 13-3? No, but please don't blame the talent when you run plays that scream JV football and couldn't manage a game clock if you're life depended on it. This team had the talent to win the division. O'fer in the division is on the coaches this year.

[Romes]

Its mostly the talent...but the coaching isn't helping.

[jamze132]

Dick sucks, he needs to go, we all know that. We have a bunch of crappy players too who over-pursue, can't tackle, talk smack without backing it up, can't hold onto the football, can't catch a pass that hits your hands, can't get a yard on a 3rd and 1, can't block when it counts, and can't get a sack. There are many more reasons you guys can come up with.

The bottom line, we need an influx of talent, not "high-character, high-motor guys" who in Jauron's words "We really like ___________."

I'm so sick of his press conferences, he sucks at them too.

[acehole]

Give me a QB and we're in the playoffs this year and we aren't even talking about Jauron getting fired.

Yes this ones clock is broken.

[Mr. Pink]

I know this thread was started as sarcasm, but you shoulda been serious.

Because it's the truth.

[Jan Reimers]

If you gave Dick Jauron the best talent in the league, he would F**k it up with his stinking game management, ass clown play calling, and soft, passive approach to the game. He is a pathetic head coach, plain and simple.

[Philagape]

Its mostly the talent...but the coaching isn't helping.

Agreed.
Ultimately, there's only so much a coach can do. When the ball is put in play, all they do is watch helplessly on the sidelines, and it's the players alone that determine the outcome of each and every play.

Bad play calls can limit a team's effectiveness -- and coaches should be held accountable for that -- but as is often said here, good execution can make a bad call look a lot better, and vice-versa.

All of the following are on the players:
-- Off-target passes
-- Poor decisions with the ball
-- Poor ball security
-- Poor tackling
-- Poor blocking
-- Players misreading what the other team is doing
-- Hitting the wrong hole on the line
-- Overpursuing
-- Stupid penalties
-- Falling down on the field
And many other things.
And, of course, simply not being fast enough or strong enough.

Sure, coaches can try to teach those things, but whether they sink in is entirely up to the players' capacity to learn and execute. Many players just aren't smart enough or talented enough.
If a player becomes a better player through coaching, it's because that player was smart enough to learn and had the talent to execute. A coach can get credit for recognizing those talents when others don't, and using them correctly, but a player has to be that kind of player to begin with.

That said, Dick is bad at the things coaches are responsible for -- play calls, staff decisions, clock management, overfraternization -- and therefore should be fired.

[Mr. Pink]

For anyone who thinks it isn't talent....

Look at this depth chart....

http://www.nfl.com/teams/depthchart?team=DET

compare it to ours....

http://www.nfl.com/teams/buffalobills/depthchart?team=BUF

Now you tell me where we're better than them, and be honest.

They went 0-16 We went 7-9

Talent wise, we're about equal.

[Jan Reimers]

Why give truffles, kobe beef and baluga caviar to a short order cook?

[billsfanone]

I know this thread was started as sarcasm, but you shoulda been serious.

Because it's the truth.

It wasn't started in sarcasm. This was the Bills line a few weeks ago.

Yeah the Bills could use more talent. But a better coach (one who is not a career loser) would have won them a few more games.

[Philagape]

Why

can't

it

be

BOTH?


Why is that such a hard concept for so many people to grasp?

[HHURRICANE]

Why give truffles, kobe beef and baluga caviar to a short order cook?

Wow. That's funny and true.

When I read it that way I want to puke.

Maybe Jauron does better when his roster sucks.

[Mr. Pink]

Why

can't

it

be

BOTH?


Why is that such a hard concept for so many people to grasp?


Because no matter what HC is brought in, it won't matter, no HC in this league would guide this team to a record above .500

The talent level isn't there to do it.

Was Dick mediocre in Chicago? Yep. But go look over their roster from when he coached there, it was another team with a plethora of garbage.

[billsfanone]

Why

can't

it

be

BOTH?


Why is that such a hard concept for so many people to grasp?

It sure can. And to some extend I believe it is. That said, the Bills propaganda machine shouldn't throw only the players under the bus.

[HHURRICANE]

Because no matter what HC is brought in, it won't matter, no HC in this league would guide this team to a record above .500

The talent level isn't there to do it.

Was Dick mediocre in Chicago? Yep. But go look over their roster from when he coached there, it was another team with a plethora of garbage.

Our roster is still weak. We agree. This team is a 9-7 team.

However, 9-7 should have been achieved this year.

Jauron's coaching against the Jets and NE was just horrible.

[djjimkelly]

If Jauron returns, he'll receive an immediate answer from the fans who fail to return their 2009 season ticket invoices. I predict the dropoff would be substantial.


stick to your word i didnt goto toronto game because of how **** team is i refused to give any of my money to bills this year. because i have no hope for this team currently

[djjimkelly]

and all apparel being purchased by me is banned till they axe jauron

[Mr. Pink]

Our roster is still weak. We agree. This team is a 9-7 team.

However, 9-7 should have been achieved this year.

Jauron's coaching against the Jets and NE was just horrible.

This team talent wise, could have just as easily been 4-12.

I know you watched the games.

We barely escaped with wins vs the Raiders, Jags, Broncos.

And losses we did accrue, like the Browns, Jets, Dolphins, 49ers had ZERO to do with the coaching but everything to do with the execution.

I'm still glad we didn't play Detroit in the 2nd half of the year, because I don't know if we could beat them, and it has nothing to do with Rod's coaching prowess.

[Philagape]

If I were to put a ratio on it, which itself is rather silly, I'd say 60% talent, 40% coaching. Maybe 70-30.

On the most important factors on each side of the ball -- quarterbacking on offense, pass rush on defense -- the players were just not good enough.

[justasportsfan]

Talent on the field can make any coach look good or bad.
and a good coach can make a player look good or bad too. I told you it goes both ways but you won't listen.

[justasportsfan]

All of the following are on the players:
-- Off-target passes
-- Poor decisions with the ball
-- Poor ball security
-- Poor tackling
-- Poor blocking
-- Players misreading what the other team is doing
-- Hitting the wrong hole on the line
-- Overpursuing
-- Stupid penalties
-- Falling down on the field
And many other things.
And, of course, simply not being fast enough or strong enough.

.


The good coaches don't have a problem making their players perform everything you stated.

[billsfanone]

What came first, the chicken or the egg?

That's the argument we're having here.

A good coach can work with less than ideal talent.
A overly talented team can make a bad coach look good.

We don't have an overly talented team. We also have a career loser as a head coach. Sounds like a recipe for losing.

[Mr. Pink]

The good coaches don't have a problem making their players perform everything you stated.

Again...

Bill Belichick is a good coach...

He couldn't teach Todd Philcox or Eric Zeier any of that.

Tom Coughlin, prior to last season, had a QB who didn't display any of those traits, a very undisciplined team, a team who's RB quit on them and Jeremy Shockey who complained about anything and everything. Now, all of a sudden, he's a genius for beating the Pats in the SB.

You can go on and on with this...

If you don't have talent, it doesn't matter who the coach is.

Brian Billick couldn't turn Tony Banks into a competent, consistent QB...yet he threw Trent Dilfer in there and the Ravens went on to win the SB. He couldn't teach Kyle Boller to be competent either.

How do explain that? If he could teach one, according to your theory, he should be able to teach them all right?

[justasportsfan]

Again...

Bill Belichick is a good coach...

He couldn't teach Todd Philcox or Eric Zeier any of that.

Tom Coughlin, prior to last season, had a QB who didn't display any of those traits, a very undisciplined team, a team who's RB quit on them and Jeremy Shockey who complained about anything and everything. Now, all of a sudden, he's a genius for beating the Pats in the SB.

You can go on and on with this...

If you don't have talent, it doesn't matter who the coach is.

Brian Billick couldn't turn Tony Banks into a competent, consistent QB...yet he threw Trent Dilfer in there and the Ravens went on to win the SB. He couldn't teach Kyle Boller to be competent either.

How do explain that? If he could teach one, according to your theory, he should be able to teach them all right?


great coaches make great teachers. They know how to make their players execute.

Eli was supposedly a bust. Yet a great coach knew how to develop him eventually.

We all made fun of Porter last season. Under Parcells and the right coaches he all of a sudden starts playing the best football he's ever played when we all thought he's a has been. Thats what good coaching can do.

Whether it's Sammy Morris or any other rb, BB is able to bring out the best in them. Great coaches can grab a nobody like Cassel and turn him into a good QB. Don't tell me that you and everyone else in the football world knew that Cassel would eventually be a decent qb when he was first drafted.


Trent would be an awsome qb under a good coach. Dick has not had a good OC in his entire career and it's ruining players.

[Mr. Pink]

great coaches make great teachers. They know how to make their players excecute.

We all made fun of Porter last season. Under Parcells and the right coaches he all of a sudden starts playing the best football he's ever played when we all thought he's a has been. Thats what good coaching can do.

Whether it's Sammy Morris or any other rb, BB is able to bring out the best in them. Great coaches can grab a nobody like Cassel and turn him into a good QB. Don't tell me that you and everyone else in the football world knew that Cassel would eventually be a decent qb when he was first drafted.


Joey Porter league wide was getting the reputation as an all talk no walk type player. Not that he didn't put up good numbers still but he wasn't anywhere near the form he had back in Pittsburgh.

Couldn't it just be through Joey's drive and desire to prove the naysayers wrong that he went out and had the best season of his career? What his role is now, isn't much different than it ever was. So it's not like coaching suddenly turned him loose and told him to do whatever he wanted.

About the RBs...back to my Coughlin example...Tiki quit on them, didn't have good things to say about the organization...now they have 2 RBs who both top a thousand yards. Why? Good O-line. Denver, for years now, just goes along and plugs any RB in and can get good seasons out of them. Why? Good blocking. SD, same thing. Jesse Chatman ran well there, Michael Turner, Darren Sproles, Jacob Hester and obviously LT. Why? Good blocking.

Obviously Clinton Portis is better than any back Denver's had since, yet the Broncos don't miss a beat anyways. LT goes out for a breather, no matter who his backup is, they've been able to run well too.

Same with NE. They have a tough, physical line.

Is it the coaching that makes the Broncos, Chargers and Pats run well? Or is it the fact their O-lines are simply awesome?

And of course the Pats didn't know that they'd get such a good player out of Cassell. They saw something in him that they liked and took a flyer on him. Just like every other team does in the late rounds of the draft and UDFA period.

Hell, we turned Jason Peters into a pro-bowl LT. Did the Bills think that was gonna happen when we brought him in?

Did the Saints think Colston was gonna be a stud when they took him in Round 7?

Did the Browns think Josh Cribbs would be a top 5 KR/PR in the league when they took him as a UDFA QB out of Kent St?

A combination of luck and good scouting can go a long way.

Til we bring back talented "talent evaluators" we'll be spinning our wheels no matter if it's Dick on the sidelines, Mangini, Cowher, Marty, Spags, April, Rex Ryan, etc.

[justasportsfan]

Joey Porter league wide was getting the reputation as an all talk no walk type player. Not that he didn't put up good numbers still but he wasn't anywhere near the form he had back in Pittsburgh.

Couldn't it just be through Joey's drive and desire to prove the naysayers wrong that he went out and had the best season of his career? What his role is now, isn't much different than it ever was. So it's not like coaching suddenly turned him loose and told him to do whatever he wanted. drive or not Parcells brought it out of him. Coahces can bring the drive out of players.



About the RBs...back to my Coughlin example...Tiki quit on them, didn't have good things to say about the organization...now they have 2 RBs who both top a thousand yards. Why? Good O-line. Denver, for years now, just goes along and plugs any RB in and can get good seasons out of them. Why? Good blocking. SD, same thing. Jesse Chatman ran well there, Michael Turner, Darren Sproles, Jacob Hester and obviously LT. Why? Good blocking.

Obviously Clinton Portis is better than any back Denver's had since, yet the Broncos don't miss a beat anyways. LT goes out for a breather, no matter who his backup is, they've been able to run well too.

Same with NE. They have a tough, physical line.

Is it the coaching that makes the Broncos, Chargers and Pats run well? Or is it the fact their O-lines are simply awesome?

And of course the Pats didn't know that they'd get such a good player out of Cassell. They saw something in him that they liked and took a flyer on him. Just like every other team does in the late rounds of the draft and UDFA period. .


And who devices and pans good blocking? Aha! The coaches. Who picks the talent to make those blocks? Aha! the coaches.


Hell, we turned Jason Peters into a pro-bowl LT. Did the Bills think that was gonna happen when we brought him in?.
and who saw that potential and made him into a probowl LT ? Aha! McNally.


Did the Saints think Colston was gonna be a stud when they took him in Round 7

Did the Browns think Josh Cribbs would be a top 5 KR/PR in the league when they took him as a UDFA QB out of Kent St?

A combination of luck and good scouting can go a long way.

Til we bring back talented "talent evaluators" we'll be spinning our wheels no matter if it's Dick on the sidelines, Mangini, Cowher, Marty, Spags, April, Rex Ryan, etc.
they sure saw their potential and deviced a plan to put him in situations to succeeed.

All you did was prove my point with your examples. Good coaching and good players equals success.

Bobby April is successful in what he does no matter how often we change players on ST. He brought out the potential in Leodis in the meantime Turk turned Lee into a turd and couldn't develop Hardy.

Every player we drafted offensively would've done better with a coach that knows his stuff.

[justasportsfan]

And of course the Pats didn't know that they'd get such a good player out of Cassell. They saw something in him that they liked and took a flyer on him. Just like every other team does in the late rounds of the draft and UDFA period. .


this most of all proves my point. They knew how to devlop him. Just like Brady, they didn't force him early on to throw deep. They started both qb's with screens. They planned a way to make him succeed. Thats what great coaches can do.

[Mr. Pink]

drive or not Parcells brought it out of him. Coahces can bring the drive out of players.




And who devices and pans good blocking? Aha! The coaches. Who picks the talent to make those blocks? Aha! the coaches.

and who saw that potential and made him into a probowl LT ? Aha! McNally.

they sure saw their potential and deviced a plan to put him in situations to succeeed.

All you did was prove my point with your examples. Good coaching and good players equals success.

Bobby April is successful in what he does no matter how often we change players on ST. He brought out the potential in Leodis in the meantime Turk turned Lee into a turd and couldn't develop Hardy.

Every player we drafted offensively would've done better with a coach that knows his stuff.

Nobody can bring drive out of you...you have to want it for yourself. I can want you to get up off your ass and bring me a beer...you ain't doing it unless you want to. Simply put if Joey just wanted to go out there lolligag and collect a check, nothing Parcells could have done to change that.

Blocking schemes? LOL Denver runs zoneblocking...the players learn it and employ it. They either get the scheme or they don't. Obviously they do. Other teams, it's just man on man who wants it more and knowing what play is called and what side to turn the defender to, to open the hole more for the back.

Who saw Peters potential? Someone in the scouting department or Donahoe himself originally.

You need good talent evaluators to bring those people in to begin with. No matter how good your coaching is, you can't polish a turd. Blake Costanzo...turd. Jon Corto...turd. James Hardy...turd. JP Losman....turd.

Unfortunately, this organization has brought in more turds than anything else.

April developed Leodis? Ha. Leodis was the top returner in last year's draft, bar none. He had the talent and desire to do it already April did nothing to "develop" it.

BTW Lee Evans stats are exactly at what he's averaged for his career....so either every coach has turned him into a turd or he's been a turd all along.

[justasportsfan]

Nobody can bring drive out of you...you have to want it for yourself.

I can want you to get up off your ass and bring me a beer...you ain't doing it unless you want to. Simply put if Joey just wanted to go out there lolligag and collect a check, nothing Parcells could have done to change that.

Blocking schemes? LOL Denver runs zoneblocking...the players learn it and employ it. They either get the scheme or they don't. Obviously they do. Other teams, it's just man on man who wants it more and knowing what play is called and what side to turn the defender to, to open the hole more for the back. .

To a certain degree it's true it has to come from you too but coaches help too. If you don't believe that Tell that to Marv Levy. Tell that to every player on the bills team that's plays hard for Dick. The problem is, they are put insituations bu Turk to Fail.



Who saw Peters potential? Someone in the scouting department or Donahoe himself originally.. McNally obviously since he was brought in as an URFA


You need good talent evaluators to bring those people in to begin with. No matter how good your coaching is, you can't polish a turd. Blake Costanzo...turd. Jon Corto...turd. James Hardy...turd. JP Losman....turd.. So you're telling me Modrak is a bad talent evaluator? He has a better track record than TURK.



April developed Leodis? Ha. Leodis was the top returner in last year's draft, bar none. He had the talent and desire to do it already April did nothing to "develop" it..
..which is exactly my point, so were Lee Evans and Hardy yet Turk could do nothing with either. I doubt Turk could devlop Colston. Even if we had Steve Smith of Boldin, Turk would turn them into 5-10 wrs.





BTW Lee Evans stats are exactly at what he's averaged for his career....so either every coach has turned him into a turd or he's been a turd all along.

Puhlease. Lee is a more proven WR than Turk is a proven OC. If you can't see that, there's nothing I can do to help you. Keep defending Turk all you want. You're one of the few left that is blind .

[justasportsfan]

Unfortunately, this organization has brought in more turds than anything else...

the biggest culprit and the FACTS show it during his entire coaching career is Dick. He hasn't brought in a decent OC his entire career and only once did he have a decent offense that was good enough for one playoff loss. I know you hate facts because it proves you WRONG

[Mr. Pink]

To a certain degree it's true it has to come from you too but coaches help too. If you don't believe that Tell that to Marv Levy. Tell that to every player on the bills team that's plays hard for Dick. The problem is, they are put insituations bu Turk to Fail.
McNally obviously since he was brought in as an URFA
So you're telling me Modrak is a bad talent evaluator? He has a better track record than TURK.




Puhlease. Lee is a more proven WR than Turk is a proven OC. If you can't see that, there's nothing I can do to help you. Keep defending Turk all you want. You're one of the few left that is blind .

I'm not defending anyone...It's hard to be constantly successful when you can't execute properly. Be it the QB, either one, making bad reads, bad throws, bad decisions or wr's who can't get open.

Or the fact that this offense has one weapon on the field at any time, which happens to be the RB.

Modrak obviously has had some say in who we've drafted as of late...McCargo, Hardy, Whitner, Poz, etc... So no, he doesn't get a pass. He's been piss poor in evaluating the talent we're bringing in. Ralph's whole "we're thinking of giving him an expanded role" frankly frightens me. In a limited role he hasn't brought in winners.

Players with desire will play hard for whoever is the coach as long as they buy into and believe what he's preaching. If they don't buy into it, they quit and go through the motions in efforts to help get the guy pushed out the door. Unfortunately, our guys going all out, simply isn't good enough. I don't know how to put it more plainly than that. We're not talented enough on either side of the ball to hang with the better teams of the league. And that isn't gonna change til there's a shakeup of Modrak, Guy, Brandon.

Lee's stats since he came in the league through now...

48 843 9
48 743 7
82 1292 8
55 849 5
63 1017 3

Averages out to 59 949 5

How did he make Lee a turd exactly? His numbers this past seasons are basically his career average.

[justasportsfan]

I'm not defending anyone...It's hard to be constantly successful when you can't execute properly. Be it the QB, either one, making bad reads, bad throws, bad decisions or wr's who can't get open.

Or the fact that this offense has one weapon on the field at any time, which happens to be the RB.

Modrak obviously has had some say in who we've drafted as of late...McCargo, Hardy, Whitner, Poz, etc... So no, he doesn't get a pass. He's been piss poor in evaluating the talent we're bringing in. Ralph's whole "we're thinking of giving him an expanded role" frankly frightens me. In a limited role he hasn't brought in winners.

Players with desire will play hard for whoever is the coach as long as they buy into and believe what he's preaching. If they don't buy into it, they quit and go through the motions in efforts to help get the guy pushed out the door. Unfortunately, our guys going all out, simply isn't good enough. I don't know how to put it more plainly than that. We're not talented enough on either side of the ball to hang with the better teams of the league. And that isn't gonna change til there's a shakeup of Modrak, Guy, Brandon.

Lee's stats since he came in the league through now...

48 843 9
48 743 7
82 1292 8
55 849 5
63 1017 3

Averages out to 59 949 5

How did he make Lee a turd exactly? His numbers this past seasons are basically his career average.

It's hard to execute when you are put in a situation to fail. It's hard to execute when the D knows what you are going to sdo.

The players have pointed their finger to playcalling.

Its really simple, if the coaches were not a problem we wouldn't have this disscussion. If the coaches were not a problem Dick and Turk job wouldn't be on the line.

Lee's numbers would've been better and he would've been a better weapon with better coaching.

[Mr. Pink]

It's hard to execute when you are put in a situation to fail. It's hard to execute when the D knows what you are going to sdo.

The players have pointed their finger to playcalling.

Its really simple, if the coaches were not a problem we wouldn't have this disscussion. If the coaches were not a problem Dick and Turk job wouldn't be on the line.

Lee's numbers would've been better and he would've been a better weapon with better coaching.


It's even simpler if we had more competent QB play from either jabroni we wouldn't have this discussion.

If we didn't have talent that rivals an expansion franchise, we wouldn't have this discussion.

Lee's numbers woulda been better? Based on what? I posted his career numbers including this year and his average season based on those stats. He was right at it. Where do you base he'd be better?

[justasportsfan]

It's even simpler if we had more competent QB play from either jabroni we wouldn't have this discussion.

If we didn't have talent that rivals an expansion franchise, we wouldn't have this discussion.

Lee's numbers woulda been better? Based on what? I posted his career numbers including this year and his average season based on those stats. He was right at it. Where do you base he'd be better?
a great coach will make our talent more competent than what we have.

Again, the FACTS are there. Dicks track record of having bad offenses and bad choices in OC are factual. Like I said, I kow you hate facts.

[TacklingDummy]

The players have pointed their finger to playcalling.




We been hearing this for years. From coaching staff to coaching staff to coaching staff to coaching staff. It's time to start pointing the finger at the players on the field. They are the ones who execute or frig up the plays called.

[Mr. Pink]

a great coach will make our talent more competent than what we have.

Again, the FACTS are there. Dicks track record of having bad offenses and bad choices in OC are factual. Like I said, I kow you hate facts.

And Dick's lack of talent on offense in Chicago, Detroit and now here have been piss poor at best...which is also factual.

When he went 13-3 there...which with this offense, I don't know how they pulled it off....

QB Jim Miller
RB A-Train
WRs Marty Booker, Dez White, David Terrell, Marcus Robinson
TE Fred Baxter

Would you call any of that good talent? Outside of Booker, it should be a resounding no.

And then in 2005 with Detroit, it goes without saying how skilled or successful a team that has Joey Harrington is.

Our roster is no different than any of the teams he's coached previously.

[justasportsfan]

We been hearing this for years. From coaching staff to coaching staff to coaching staff to coaching staff. It's time to start pointing the finger at the players on the field. They are the ones who execute or frig up the plays called.


thats because we've had ****ty Hcoaches unless you think we've had good ones.

You seem to think Jackson is better than Lynch so why is he the back-up? Isn't that a coaching decision?

[Mr. Pink]

thats because we've had ****ty Hcoaches unless you think we've had good ones.

You seem to think Jackson is better than Lynch so why is he the back-up? Isn't that a coaching decision?

Also a FO decision.

An organization that replaces a first round draft pick with an undrafted free agent is basically screaming "oh ****, well we F-ed up that pick and wasted it on someone we didn't need...so we can't do that because we'd look bad/even worse than we already do."

Example...If JP wasn't a first round pick, he woulda been cut before the 06 season.

[justasportsfan]

And Dick's lack of talent on offense in Chicago, Detroit and now here have been piss poor at best...which is also factual.

When he went 13-3 there...which with this offense, I don't know how they pulled it off....

QB Jim Miller
RB A-Train
WRs Marty Booker, Dez White, David Terrell, Marcus Robinson
TE Fred Baxter

Would you call any of that good talent? Outside of Booker, it should be a resounding no.

And then in 2005 with Detroit, it goes without saying how skilled or successful a team that has Joey Harrington is.

Our roster is no different than any of the teams he's coached previously.

I'm not talking about Detroit. He wasn't a HC.

who chose his talent? Who chose his Oc's that in turn has input on players?

Again, BB has no problem whether his player had no starts in Hs or not. He doesn't care if it's Sammy Morris or some unkown rb like ellis-Green. They execute.

[Mr. Pink]

I'm not talking about Detroit. He wasn't a HC.

who chose his talent? Who chose his Oc's that in turn has input on players?

Again, BB has no problem whether his player had no starts in Hs or not. He doesn't care if it's Sammy Morris or some unkown rn like ellis-Green. They execute.


Who says Dick has had ANY say in draft picks and free agent acquisitions?

Either here, chicago or detroit.

You put way too much stock that HC's have say in who the team acquires...especially through the draft. When do you think that a head coach would have any time to watch what college players are doing? He's busy analyzing tape of NFL teams and devising gameplans. That is why you have scouting departments.

That's their job.

[justasportsfan]

Also a FO decision.

An organization that replaces a first round draft pick with an undrafted free agent is basically screaming "oh ****, well we F-ed up that pick and wasted it on someone we didn't need...so we can't do that because we'd look bad/even worse than we already do."

Example...If JP wasn't a first round pick, he woulda been cut before the 06 season.
and I agree it's also an FO decision. Thing is better coaches know what to do with the talent they have just like Miami ressurected the careers of Chad and Joey Porter because they know how to use them.

I would give you the benefit of a doubt in the lack of talent is Dick was a first time coach and coaching only 2 years. He hasn't done squat his entire career offensively after making one wrong choice after another when it comes to offense.

Again, the facts are there. You can argue with facts all you want . You telling me the facts are wrong?

[ddaryl]

arguably I come to determine that it is obviously both a talent and a coaching issue. We have no game changers in the talent department...

and the coaching has been obviously horrible

[Mr. Pink]

and I agree it's also an FO decision. Thing is better coaches know what to do with the talent they have just like Miami ressurected the careers of Chad and Joey Porter because they know how to use them.

I would give you the benefit of a doubt in the lack of talent is Dick was a first time coach and coaching only 2 years. He hasn't done squat his entire career offensively after making one wrong choice after another when it comes to offense.

Again, the facts are there. You can argue with facts all you want . You telling me the facts are wrong?

See, that's where you and I differ.

My opinion is no matter who we brought in coaching wise, we still woulda failed based on who we had to put out there on the field.

I lay the blame at the FO for not bringing in enough NFL caliber players and playmakers,

I've never said I've though Dick is a great head coach, I just don't think he's as bad as some people like to think.

He has a very limited talent base to work with and I don't think anyone would succeed with it.

We're an average team that will play other average teams tight...we'll lose to the good teams...and we'll beat bad teams. Now there's times where you'll play over your head and beat a good team - Denver and there's times where you'll play like crap and lose to a bad team - Cleveland.

At the end of the day though it all averages out and you end up around where you should be. And we've been right around where we should be the past three years, mediocre.

[Mr. Pink]

and I agree it's also an FO decision. Thing is better coaches know what to do with the talent they have just like Miami ressurected the careers of Chad and Joey Porter because they know how to use them.

I would give you the benefit of a doubt in the lack of talent is Dick was a first time coach and coaching only 2 years. He hasn't done squat his entire career offensively after making one wrong choice after another when it comes to offense.

Again, the facts are there. You can argue with facts all you want . You telling me the facts are wrong?


You're telling me that Lee Evans would have performed better but Turk turned him into a turd.

I presented facts that showed he performed at exactly the same level he has his entire career.

Yet you argue that I'm wrong, even though those facts show otherwise.

[justasportsfan]

Who says Dick has had ANY say in draft picks and free agent acquisitions?

Either here, chicago or detroit.

You put way too much stock that HC's have say in who the team acquires...especially through the draft. When do you think that a head coach would have any time to watch what college players are doing? He's busy analyzing tape of NFL teams and devising gameplans. That is why you have scouting departments.

That's their job. yeah, I guess they are at the combine to socialize. I guess Turk was just trying to get Trents sisters phone no when he interviwed him.

Fewell said he wanted more beef up the middle , he got Stroud and Spencer.

Coaches have no say I guess. :rolleyes:

[justasportsfan]

You're telling me that Lee Evans would have performed better but Turk turned him into a turd.

I presented facts that showed he performed at exactly the same level he has his entire career.

Yet you argue that I'm wrong, even though those facts show otherwise.


He turned Lee into a 5-10 yard wr with his dink and dunk schemes even though he's know for stretching the field . If you can't see that, nothing I can do.

[TacklingDummy]

thats because we've had ****ty Hcoaches unless you think we've had good ones.



They turned out to be ****ty coaches because the players on the field do not perform. It's funny how it's the players that make coaches either look great or ****ty.

Was Marv Levy great in KC?
Was Joe Torre great in St. Louis?
Was Bill Bilicheck great in Cleveland?
Was Steve Mariucci great in Detroit?
Was George Siefert great in Carolina?

etc...

It's easy to figure out they were great coaches when they had talented players on the field.

[TacklingDummy]

He turned Lee into a 5-10 yard wr with his dink and dunk schemes even though he's know for stretching the field . If you can't see that, nothing I can do.


And yet Lee was ranked 10th in YPC.

[Mr. Pink]

yeah, I guess they are at the combine to socialize. I guess Turk was just trying to get Trents sisters phone no when he interviwed him.

Fewell said he wanted more beef up the middle , he got Stroud and Spencer.

Coaches have no say I guess. :rolleyes:

Ok, go with that...

He said he wanted more beef up the middle...

Did he say he wanted specific players?

Likely not.

Why?

He doesn't have time to specifically scout individual players.

He says we need guys here, here and here...then the "talent evaluators" go out and pick who they think is best to fit that hole.

[justasportsfan]

They turn out to be ****ty coaches because the players on the field do not perform. It's funny how it's the players that make coaches either look great or ****ty.

Was Marv Levy great in KC?
Was Joe Torre great in St. Louis?
Was Bill Bilicheck great in Cleveland?
Was Steve Mariucci great in Detroit?
Was George Siefert great in Carolina?

etc...

It's easy to figure out they were great coaches when they had talented players on the field.


Haha! You're the only one who thinks it's all talent and that coaching has nothing to do with it. AS a matter of fact I've always said MArv would be a nobody without Polian and the players he brought in. Thins is, you need to have a good coach know knows how to put things tegther.

I've always said coaching and talent go hand in hand. You said NO.

Nice try :up:

[Mr. Pink]

He turned Lee into a 5-10 yard wr with his dink and dunk schemes even though he's know for stretching the field . If you can't see that, nothing I can do.

Lee Evans YPC this year - 16.1
Lee Evans YPC career - 16.0

OOPS!

Next?

[TacklingDummy]

Haha! You're the only one who thinks it's all talent and that coaching has nothing to do with it. AS a matter of fact I've always said MArv would be a nobody without Polian and the players he brought in.

I've always said coaching and talent go hand in hand. You said NO.

Nice try :up:

For the most part coaching has nothing to do with it. Either someone has talent or someone doesn't. Did coaching make Manning, A-Rod, Kelly, Babe Ruth, Michael Jordon, Magic, Bird, Bruce, etc... or were they just great at what they do?

For example, all the coaching in the world wouldn't make JP Losman a great QB.

What I've always said is its 10% coaching, 90% players.

[justasportsfan]

He doesn't have time to specifically scout individual players.

.

WRONG! Dick as a matter of fact have watched tape on guys like Walker Thats common knowledge. You must've been absent around that time.

Like I said , if it was clearly the lack of talent we wouldn't have this converstaion to begin with and Dicks job wouldn't be in jeopardy.

[justasportsfan]

For the most part coaching has nothing to do with it. Either someone has talent or someone doesn't. Did coaching make Manning, A-Rod, Kelly, Babe Ruth, Michael Jordon, Magic, Bird, Bruce, etc... or were they just great at what they do?

For example, all the coaching in the world wouldn't make JP Losman a great QB.

What I've always said is its 10% coaching, 90% players.

You're talking individual. I'm talking team here. Again I never disagreed talent helps but I'll even give you a better example, coaching won the sb for the pats against better teams in their first win.


Coaching made Eli, Brady and Cassel.

[billogic99]

I think the most important atribute a "good coach" has i accountability in his players, however if you don't have the players that have the desire to be the best it's nearly impossible to make them see it. If you have a good foundation that's where good coaching takes over. That's why it's so important that the GM and HC are on the same page when adding the personnel. If you don't bring in guy's that eat, sleep and breath football you're not going to change that. Joey Porter is a "football guy", his life is about the game.

Some players just like the money or the fame, some like to be successful football players first. I think DJ just doesn't demand enough from the players and even if he did, who would take him seriously? Everything I've read about the guy is about how everyone likes him....think everyone likes BB or BP? Hell no, they may respect them, but they aren't/weren't coaching and succeeding to make friends, they're doing/did it to win.

Bottom line is nice guy's finish last, shelfish guy's finish last, lazy guy's finish last, guy's who can't focus finish last. You need a no nonsense coach and players that are on track minded. Get that in Buffalo and we suddenly compete with the best of them, I don't care what the players names are and what they've achived in the NFL.