So we should go and get Peppers huh????

[X-Era]

Abso-friggin-lutely not.

I went from being abig fan of seeing him in a Bills uni to someone who hopes (and knows) he never will...

http://www.profootballtalk.com/2009/01/11/panthers-face-big-decisions-on-peppers-gross/

Al you need to do is look at how much hes making per year and you will see that we will NEVER make that move.

The Bills are likley to make their move in the draft. I think its gonna be Brown or Orakpo.

[PECKERWOOD]

13 million a year? All we would have to do is cut Schobel and Kelsay then we could sign Peppers easily and draft another DE in the 1st round. Sorry but that would make too much sense, it will certainly never happen. God forbid we unload two highly overpaid players and spend the money on a difference maker who is actually worth the weight. Peppers would put our defense in the top 10 -- then imagine adding a guy like Michael Johnson, DE, 6'7 270lbs on the side opposite to him.

[X-Era]

13 million a year? All we would have to do is cut Schobel and Kelsay then we could sign Peppers easily and draft another DE in the 1st round. Sorry but that would make too much sense, it will certainly never happen. God forbid we unload two highly overpaid players and spend the money on a difference maker who is actually worth the weight.

I dont know the facts, but I seriously doubt we could cut both and get 13 mill in cap room. Im picturing cap hits due to signing bonuses... etc...

Anyways, can you honestly see us cutting 2 players for one, and really cant see us ever signing a guy to 13 mill per.

[ddaryl]

Peppers won't be commanding 14 mil a season with a new contract. He'll get a much more feasible contract if he signs with someone else.

His 14 mil year for next year represents the last year of the contract in which a player is extended and the cost is absorbed or released

Peppers is still on my wish list


13 million a year? All we would have to do is cut Schobel and Kelsay then we could sign Peppers easily and draft another DE in the 1st round. Sorry but that would make too much sense, it will certainly never happen. God forbid we unload two highly overpaid players and spend the money on a difference maker who is actually worth the weight. Peppers would put our defense in the top 10 -- then imagine adding a guy like Michael Johnson, DE, 6'7 270lbs on the side opposite to him.

cutting Schobel or kelsay does not save us much money in 2009 when you include amortisized bonus monies.

Kelsay definitley saves us nothing, and I would rahter keep Schobel this year and let him and peppers play together

[yordad]

I'm down. If Ralph doesn't spend it, he keeps it.

[X-Era]

Peppers won't be commanding 14 mil a season with a new contract. He'll get a much more feasible contract if he signs with someone else.

His 14 mil year for next year represents the only last year of the contract in which a player is extended and the cost is absorbed or released

Peppers is still on my wish list



cutting Schobel or kelsay does not save us much money in 2009 when you include amortisized bonus monies

I cant go along with it unless its in the 8-9mill range.

Thats a reasonable contract for us considering what we paid for Dockery at G.

[PECKERWOOD]

Peppers won't be commanding 14 mil a season with a new contract. He'll get a much more feasible contract if he signs with someone else.

His 14 mil year for next year represents the only last year of the contract in which a player is extended and the cost is absorbed or released

Peppers is still on my wish list



cutting Schobel or kelsay does not save us much money in 2009 when you include amortisized bonus monies

You're right that it probably wont save us a ton of money in 09 but imagine how much it would save us in 2010 and beyond? The only DE's worth keeping on our roster right now are Ellis and Denney, the rest can go as far as I'm concerned. I wouldn't mind if we drafted 2 DE's in the 1st & 2nd round this year.



I dont know the facts, but I seriously doubt we could cut both and get 13 mill in cap room. Im picturing cap hits due to signing bonuses... etc...

Anyways, can you honestly see us cutting 2 players for one, and really cant see us ever signing a guy to 13 mill per.

Peppers is worth more than Schobel and Kelsay combined.

[yordad]

I cant go along with it unless its in the 8-9mill range.

Thats a reasonable contract for us considering what we paid for Dockery at G.If you cansider what we paid Dock, Peppers would be worth 27 mil a year.

[X-Era]

If you cansider what we paid Dock, Peppers would be worth 27 mil a year.

I love responses like that.

Do you think thats a real discussion? Do you think you will get real responses?

[Mr. Pink]

Someone will be dumb enough to give Julius 13+ a year with a ridiculous signing bonus.

We simply cannot afford to give a DE that contract especially with what we have already tied up in the position.

FYI...cutting Kelsay has NO effect on the salary cap. Pat Moran confirmed this via chat with Clump. It's noted on another post.

So, if you have no problem with having 30+ million against the cap at ONE position....then be in favor of it.

[ddaryl]

I agree 8-9 per season on average should do the trick spread over 5 years

[Mr. Pink]

With the other DE's available this offseason...

Peppers is without a doubt head and shoulders above the rest.

I don't believe Suggs is going anywhere and if he does, it'll be to a 3-4 team who'll sign him as a LB.

Peppers will easily get a contract in the vicinity of 6 years 75 million 15 signing bonus...if not more.

[yordad]

I love responses like that.

Do you think thats a real discussion? Do you think you will get real responses?Clearly hyperbolized, but it makes a true, real point. I would like to make Peppers the Bills first 10+ Mil ( a year) $$ man. And Dock's contract is relatively irrelevant.

[Mr. Pink]

Clearly hyperbolized, but it make a true, real point. I would like to make Peppers the Bills first 10+ Mil ( a year) $$ man.

Already have one of those!

http://content.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/salaries/playerdetail.aspx?player=3335

Lee Evans was paid....11.8 million this past season.

[Mahdi]

Abso-friggin-lutely not.

I went from being abig fan of seeing him in a Bills uni to someone who hopes (and knows) he never will...

http://www.profootballtalk.com/2009/01/11/panthers-face-big-decisions-on-peppers-gross/

Al you need to do is look at how much hes making per year and you will see that we will NEVER make that move.

The Bills are likley to make their move in the draft. I think its gonna be Brown or Orakpo.
Hoping for Brown. We can have a Dwight Freeney type player way cheaper for the next 5 years at least.

[colin]

i'd rather get the good de from zona and danzby from zona. that and winslow and we draft who ever the hell we want!! that safety from usc would be good if we got those front 7 upgrades

[Turbo.GUN.Hawk!]

You know I was not impressed by Peppers yesterday, he wasn't that dominant. Also I remember he didn't have a really good season last year. He is sometimes inconsistent and maybe if we are going to expend that much money lets just go for Haynesworth - he is the beast!

Not that I expect Brandon to go for either though.

[Ingtar33]

if he's franchised he'll get 17 mil next year

[EDS]

I honestly think Peppers and Suggs are pipe dreams so the Bills will need to fill the defensive end void through the draft. Fortunately, there appears to be a couple of guys who could fit the "Bill."

[DraftBoy]

Hoping for Brown. We can have a Dwight Freeney type player way cheaper for the next 5 years at least.

Brown and Freeney don't really compare....Brown has a bigger frame and could add weight to be a good 4-3 DE, Freeney was both under 250 and smaller. Freeney is only 6'1 while Brown is a solid 6'4. Huge differences there. Also lets hold off on the NFL comparisons for a little while, even EE would agree to not compare him to Freeney yet and he's by far the biggest supporter of the Bills taking Brown at 11.

[Mahdi]

Brown and Freeney don't really compare....Brown has a bigger frame and could add weight to be a good 4-3 DE, Freeney was both under 250 and smaller. Freeney is only 6'1 while Brown is a solid 6'4. Huge differences there. Also lets hold off on the NFL comparisons for a little while, even EE would agree to not compare him to Freeney yet and he's by far the biggest supporter of the Bills taking Brown at 11.
Yes I realize they arent the same size but they are a similar build. Either way my reference wasnt related to size it was to the fact that Brown is IMO the best edge rusher/penetrator/plays in the backfield type player like Freeney. Not saying he is as good or anything. Clearly I wouldnt make that statement cuz he hasnt even taken a NFL snap yet.

[DraftBoy]

Yes I realize they arent the same size but they are a similar build. Either way my reference wasnt related to size it was to the fact that Brown is IMO the best edge rusher/penetrator/plays in the backfield type player like Freeney. Not saying he is as good or anything. Clearly I wouldnt make that statement cuz he hasnt even taken a NFL snap yet.

I get what you're saying now, but I disagree with your assessment. Freeney coming out was 10-15 pounds heavier already, and had a plethora of pass rush moves, while he was an exceptional speed rusher, he was also very good at getting opposing OT's off balance and shooting inside to make a play. Brown is taller and could easily add the weight that Freeney has but I feel as though he could be a better 3-4 OLB than a 4-3 DE. Don't get me wrong Brown could be a very good 4-3 DE, but his main skill is his speed at DE, he rarely to never uses an inside move, a stutter step, or spin. Which is fine in college and are teachable techniques in the pros, however they take time to learn, and perfect. I think he's a guy who is an immediate contributor as a 3-4 OLB. I think good comparisons for Brown heading out are those of;

Manny Lawson-6'6, 241
DeMarcus Ware-6'4, 251
Kamerion Wimbley-6'4, 248

That's size wise at least and I think play wise he compares very favorably to Wimbley.

[don137]

People here in Carolina are down on Peppers. He is not a leader and he doesn't give 100% ecery play. What you get is an indredible athlete who is very quiet and when he decides to play is dominant. When you are spending that kind of coin you better get a leader and a player who has a motor that never stops.
My hunch is Carolina will franchise him and then maybe trade his rights much like Jared Alled with the Chiefs if the Panthers do not want him back at what he is commanding.

[DraftBoy]

The DE class is loaded draft wise especially with Kruger leaving early, I don't expect a very big trade market DE wise.

[madness]

Won't happen simply because Ralph thinks with his wallet... which is appropriately up..er...on his ass.

Unless Schobel's injury is worse than feared, I don't see us grabbing any DE's in FA with Schobel and Kelsay's contracts.

It's being reported (http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/playerbreakingnews.asp?sport=NFL&id=2636&line=137704&spln=1) Haynesworth will most likely hit FA. If Ralph actually did put up for another player worth + 10 million, I'd think we'd see Haynesworth before Peppers. Then we could draft a DE to come in behind our current crap...er...crop of DE's.

[justasportsfan]

Why spend so much on a DE that we're gonna drop back and cover wrs? I doubt Peppers is that good

[madness]

Why spend so much on a DE that we're gonna drop back and cover wrs? I doubt Peppers is that good

Why is this always being brought up? I've seen almost every team in the playoffs this year zone blitz at least 3-5 times in a game. It's part of the game.

[justasportsfan]

Why is this always being brought up? I've seen almost every team in the playoffs this year zone blitz at least 3-5 times in a game. It's part of the game.
we get burned bad when we do it

[madness]

we get burned bad when we do it

You get burned by a lot of things when you have no pass rush.

[justasportsfan]

You get burned by a lot of things when you have no pass rush.

Who picked our players? I'm almost sure Dick had a hand in making Kelsay stay for waaaay too much money than he deserves.

I also blame our coaches conservative approach/philosophy for that.

[PECKERWOOD]

Brown has 3 nice pass rushing moves:

1.) He can swim around OT's on the outside, which is his best move.
2.) He has a nice spin move to get pressure on the inside.
3.) He has a nice Reggie White type of move where he throws OT's off balance and then slaps them to the ground.


Number 1 & 2 is his bread and butter.

[DraftBoy]

His spin move is bad and needs a ton of work specifically foot work wise and he rarely uses it and he has nowhere near the strength at this point to use the Deacon Jones move (Jones was the guy who intially used the slap move but his was to the head which is now illegal). The only move you can see him use efectively and the one he goes to on most passing down is his outside move. He never displays a real rip move nor a stutter step move.

[PECKERWOOD]

His spin move is bad and needs a ton of work specifically foot work wise and he rarely uses it and he has nowhere near the strength at this point to use the Deacon Jones move (Jones was the guy who intially used the slap move but his was to the head which is now illegal). The only move you can see him use efectively and the one he goes to on most passing down is his outside move. He never displays a real rip move nor a stutter step move.

I agree that he rarely uses the slap move but I've seen him do it before. His outside move is his best move for sure but I don't think that his spin move is that bad? I've certainly seen it work for him against some of the more sluggish linemen.

[madness]

Who picked our players? I'm almost sure Dick had a hand in making Kelsay stay for waaaay too much money than he deserves.

I also blame our coaches conservative approach/philosophy for that.

Kelsay was getting paid to be a #2 and we had a #2 and #3 DE playing the #1 and #2 positions. If there is any blame, it's blaming the whole organization (not just(a) coaches) for not having a worthy prospect at DE on the roster.

[PECKERWOOD]

Kelsay was getting paid to be a #2 and we had a #2 and #3 DE playing the #1 and #2 positions. If there is any blame, it's blaming the whole organization (not just(a) coaches) for not having a worthy prospect at DE on the roster.

Well it's clear that this organization is very disfunctional.. I mean look at Peters, ffs. You have Langston Walker and Derrick Dockery getting paid more than the guy! It really is an abomination how we treat our best players.

[justasportsfan]

Kelsay was getting paid to be a #2 and we had a #2 and #3 DE playing the #1 and #2 positions. If there is any blame, it's blaming the whole organization (not just(a) coaches) for not having a worthy prospect at DE on the roster.

I agree. The coaches do however have input on which players they want retained.

[yordad]

Already have one of those!

http://content.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/salaries/playerdetail.aspx?player=3335

Lee Evans was paid....11.8 million this past season.I am fully aware. I should have said "per year", because that is what I intended to imply. I can be quoted in the past as saying...

He is signed through the 2012 season and is owed an average of about 6.4 million a year for the remaining four years (11.73 million was paid for ‘08).

[DBrown77]

Why spend so much on a DE that we're gonna drop back and cover wrs? I doubt Peppers is that good Carolina drops Peppers into pass coverage about 4 times per game. drives people down here nutz. its actually more common in the NFL than you think

[X-Era]

I agree that he rarely uses the slap move but I've seen him do it before. His outside move is his best move for sure but I don't think that his spin move is that bad? I've certainly seen it work for him against some of the more sluggish linemen.
Simply put, hes the 2nd best DE prospect IMO.

Hes not as good against Orakpo, who showed more against better competition. But hes more solid, and more reliable then Johnson. Hes also more reliable then Tyson Jackson.

Lets not forget that Johnson is 258, not the prototypical size that some covet. Yet, a guy thats 252 cant play DE in a 4-3? because of 6 pounds?

As I said before Robert Mathis and Jason Taylor make this arguement moot. He has the frame to 10-15 pounds in muscle no problem.

[Ingtar33]

Brown has 3 nice pass rushing moves:

1.) He can swim around OT's on the outside, which is his best move.
2.) He has a nice spin move to get pressure on the inside.
3.) He has a nice Reggie White type of move where he throws OT's off balance and then slaps them to the ground.


Number 1 & 2 is his bread and butter.

Brown is the same player Aaron Schobel is. They're identical; they're even the same size.

I'd rather find a passrush from a guy who's bigger then Kawika Mitchell.

[X-Era]

Brown is the same player Aaron Schobel is. They're identical; they're even the same size.

I'd rather find a passrush from a guy who's bigger then Kawika Mitchell.
No, Schobel didnt play for as big a school, didnt have the same success

Your talking about a guy who has postred 13.5 sacks this year, and 21.5 tackles for losses.

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=56569&draftyear=2009&genpos=DE

Heres Schobels season prior to the draft:

COLLEGE:
Played in 44 games and started 43 in four seasons at TCU... started the team's final 46 contests (including bowl games)...moved into the starting lineup as a freshman and never relinquished the #1 job...ended career with 261 tackles and 53 quarterback pressures for his career...added to his school career-record (set as a junior) with 6.5 sacks as a senior, giving him 31 for his career…in 2000 was a unanimous All-Western Athletic Conference first-team and Defensive Player of the Year pick...as a junior in 1999 was a unanimous All-Western Athletic Conference first-team selection, after posting a school season-record 10 sacks…originally recruited as an outside linebacker. Majored in Kinesiology.


I just dont see the comparison

[Ingtar33]

and he had 6 sacks in 07.

I can list plenty of players who had 1 great college season, Eric Flowers lead the NCAA in sacks his last season (i think it was something silly like 18 or 20 sacks); and a quick search on that draft evaluation web sight you listed, i found Flower's listed as the 4th DE in that draft, and a late 1st round talent.

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=60666&draftyear=2000&genpos=DE

Never been there before. it's a sorta neat site, though I'm not sure I'd trust their evaluation of talent.

Flowers wasn't really on our board in 2000 (at least not as a top 10 DE)

I'm not saying Brown wouldn't be a great end in the pros. i mean if he turns out as good as Schobel that would make him a top 10 DE. I'm just not convinced he'll produce as well as Schobel did his rookie year (6 sacks), and we need more then 6 sacks from whomever we add to the line.

[DraftBoy]

I agree that he rarely uses the slap move but I've seen him do it before. His outside move is his best move for sure but I don't think that his spin move is that bad? I've certainly seen it work for him against some of the more sluggish linemen.


Its off balance and choppy. One time he'll do like a flash and do it very well and the next he'll look like he has two left field, getting his feet all mixed up. Plus at the next level if he as is off balance as he appears at times doing that he will get knocked right over. His speed/athleticism is his biggest asset, everything else needs plenty of work.

[DraftBoy]

and he had 6 sacks in 07.

I can list plenty of players who had 1 great college season, Eric Flowers lead the NCAA in sacks his last season (i think it was something silly like 18 or 20 sacks); and a quick search on that draft evaluation web sight you listed, i found Flower's listed as the 4th DE in that draft, and a late 1st round talent.

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=60666&draftyear=2000&genpos=DE

Never been there before. it's a sorta neat site, though I'm not sure I'd trust their evaluation of talent.

Flowers wasn't really on our board in 2000 (at least not as a top 10 DE)

I'm not saying Brown wouldn't be a great end in the pros. i mean if he turns out as good as Schobel that would make him a top 10 DE. I'm just not convinced he'll produce as well as Schobel did his rookie year (6 sacks), and we need more then 6 sacks from whomever we add to the line.


That site is best used as reference for basic idea around measurements, 40 time, etc. I dont pay for their analysis or really go by their round projections.

[DraftBoy]

Simply put, hes the 2nd best DE prospect IMO.

Hes not as good against Orakpo, who showed more against better competition. But hes more solid, and more reliable then Johnson. Hes also more reliable then Tyson Jackson.

Lets not forget that Johnson is 258, not the prototypical size that some covet. Yet, a guy thats 252 cant play DE in a 4-3? because of 6 pounds?

As I said before Robert Mathis and Jason Taylor make this arguement moot. He has the frame to 10-15 pounds in muscle no problem.


Ill tell you this right now, Johnson is not 258, Ive seen the guy, and its common knowledge in Atlanta that he is above 265 right now. I love NFLDraftScout as a reference site but at least about Johnson I can say they have him listed wrong.

And no its not just 6 pounds and you know that, but you won't debate his skill set because you know it lends best to 3-4 OLB and not 4-3 DE. His strength isnt there, his play v. the run isnt there, and his inside move isnt there. Then again he sounds like a perfect Bills under performing DE pick.

[Ingtar33]

Ill tell you this right now, Johnson is not 258, Ive seen the guy, and its common knowledge in Atlanta that he is above 265 right now. I love NFLDraftScout as a reference site but at least about Johnson I can say they have him listed wrong.

And no its not just 6 pounds and you know that, but you won't debate his skill set because you know it lends best to 3-4 OLB and not 4-3 DE. His strength isnt there, his play v. the run isnt there, and his inside move isnt there. Then again he sounds like a perfect Bills under performing DE pick.

yep.

[X-Era]

Ill tell you this right now, Johnson is not 258, Ive seen the guy, and its common knowledge in Atlanta that he is above 265 right now. I love NFLDraftScout as a reference site but at least about Johnson I can say they have him listed wrong.

And no its not just 6 pounds and you know that, but you won't debate his skill set because you know it lends best to 3-4 OLB and not 4-3 DE. His strength isnt there, his play v. the run isnt there, and his inside move isnt there. Then again he sounds like a perfect Bills under performing DE pick.
No, an underperforming pick would be a guy who doesnt play with as much heart as youd like... hmmmm wonder who that might be. The guy can give up size if he plays with more heart... thats the makings of an overachiever, not an underachiever.

Maybe youve "seen" Brown as well? Maybe hes 260-ish as well at this point. That stuff will sort itself out when they get weighed at the combine.

Skill set? that's a tertiary thing to look at after on the field production. Johnson didn't post Browns numbers... he just didn't. Thats a true fact. Arguing about skill set is nothing more than you opinion vs. mine. Why didnt he post the same numbers? Thats a better discussion.

[X-Era]

A few reads on Johnson:

http://www.nfldraftdog.com/2009_NFL_Draft/michael_johnson.htm

http://nfl.fanhouse.com/2008/09/06/nfl-draft-notes-michael-johnson-de-georgia-tech-shows-his-stu/

http://www.draftcountdown.com/scoutingreports/de/Michael-Johnson.php

http://cdsdraft.com/profile.php?id=2394

I keep seeing the same things... not good against the run... disappears... may not be strong enough... physical toughness is an issue.

[DraftBoy]

No, an underperforming pick would be a guy who doesnt play with as much heart as youd like... hmmmm wonder who that might be. The guy can give up size if he plays with more heart... thats the makings of an overachiever, not an underachiever.

Maybe youve "seen" Brown as well? Maybe hes 260-ish as well at this point. That stuff will sort itself out when they get weighed at the combine.

Skill set? that's a tertiary thing to look at after on the field production. Johnson didn't post Browns numbers... he just didn't. Thats a true fact. Arguing about skill set is nothing more than you opinion vs. mine. Why didnt he post the same numbers? Thats a better discussion.


A discussion we've had, watch the games Johnson was DT'd all year long and he still made plays. Just because you don't like him and constantly bring him up when we are trying to talk about Brown doesnt make your case for Brown any stronger. Why won't you ever talk about why Brown is not that good v. the Run, why his inside move is not there, and why his overall strength is lacking? What is it about talking about a players flaws (of one you like) that bugs you so much that you can't admit to them? I dont get it at all.

[PECKERWOOD]

Let me make no mistake about it, I really want either Greg Hardy or Michael Johnson, land either of the two and I'm very happy.

[DraftBoy]

Let me make no mistake about it, I really want either Greg Hardy or Michael Johnson, land either of the two and I'm very happy.


There are a number of excellent DE's to draft this year and next, not just 2 or 3.

[PECKERWOOD]

There are a number of excellent DE's to draft this year and next, not just 2 or 3.

I want a DE with our first pick, I don't want to wait until the later rounds and hope we find a diamond in rough.

Let me be very honest: Orakpo, Brown, Hardy, Johnson, Barwin and Maybin would ALL upgrade our DE unit. It really isn't that hard to do when Ryan Denney leads the team with sacks.

[X-Era]

A discussion we've had, watch the games Johnson was DT'd all year long and he still made plays. Just because you don't like him and constantly bring him up when we are trying to talk about Brown doesnt make your case for Brown any stronger. Why won't you ever talk about why Brown is not that good v. the Run, why his inside move is not there, and why his overall strength is lacking? What is it about talking about a players flaws (of one you like) that bugs you so much that you can't admit to them? I dont get it at all.
I dont mind talking about him negatively at all.

He has 21.5 tackles for losses this year. Thats not exactly saying hes bad in run support. Johnson on the other hand is noted for having that issue.

I would say the issue with Brown is that he can get manhandled at times, and that it comes from his smaller size. He needs to add bulk.

[PECKERWOOD]

I dont mind talking about him negatively at all.

He has 21.5 tackles for losses this year. Thats not exactly saying hes bad in run support. Johnson on the other hand is noted for having that issue.

I would say the issue with Brown is that he can get manhandled at times, and that it comes from his smaller size. He needs to add bulk.

I've seen Johnson play probably about 3-4 times, I've seen him make plays and at other times I didn't even notice if he was on the field. However, I'm really intrigued with his frame and the potential that he could be but will probably never see. Still, if he pulled it together he could be an athletic freak daddy.

Brown has probably one of the fastest first steps that I've seen out of any DE. I'm not a pro-scout, just your average joe but that's what striked me the most about Brown is his quickness.


I'm still on the Hardy bandwagon -- I understand that there are more than 1 DE in the draft but he is my favorite for now. I know this is seemingly illogical but I like the hustle that he brings. I've watched him play probably more than any of the other DE's I listed, believe it or not. Also, his size HAS to be a plus.. 6'4 270lbs, nice first step and stands firm in the run support. I think he is a very complete player.