Why Kelsay must go..

[patmoran2006]

Its obvious to all of us and I'm assuming even our incompetent front office realizes our defense isn't going to get better until we get better at defensive end, especially with the pass rush.

But making a major move is easier said than done. Bad contracts and perhaps a bad draft pick last year make the process harder.

Assuming Aaron Schobel will be healthy, he's going nowhere. He still has 4-years remaining on his deal and it would cost the Bills money to cut him, they wouldn't save a dime.

RYan Denney played very well in a forced starter role last year. He's going into the final year of his contract, so he'll be around next year.

Chris Ellis was a disaster last year, but he was only a rookie. The Bills invested a third round pick in him. It's highly doubtful they'll continue to let him toil at the end of the bench and not give him a shot at more playing time.

That leaves Chris Kelsay. In my opinion, we absolutely must cut him. But from what i've gathered from people I've talked to and/or heard, Kelsay isn't going anywhere. I checked with our cap expert (Clump) and according to him the Bills would have no cap savings by cutting him at all, another factor that may keep him around. He's still under contract for two more seasons (let me reiterate what a terrible deal this is)

So if we're going to sign a free agent or take a top DE in the draft, then how can he NOT be cut? I highly doubt Ellis would be a 5th DE, unless the bills are ready to say he's a bust after only one year.

Kelsay has gotta go.. It won't be a financial move, it'll be a football move.

[Turbo.GUN.Hawk!]

We paid him a big signing bonus so if we cut him Buffalo would still be paying for him even though he is gone. If that is going to happen we might as well keep him, just in case. I mean, he is not a cancer in the locker room so he is not going to do any harm.

In any case I would at least wait to see who we sign in FA and who we draft, making a decision right now would be dumb.

[acehole]

I like Kelsay and Denny at Thier spots....shobel lack of production makes those guys look worse...
Its obvious to all of us and I'm assuming even our incompetent front office realizes our defense isn't going to get better until we get better at defensive end, especially with the pass rush.

But making a major move is easier said than done. Bad contracts and perhaps a bad draft pick last year make the process harder.

Assuming Aaron Schobel will be healthy, he's going nowhere. He still has 4-years remaining on his deal and it would cost the Bills money to cut him, they wouldn't save a dime.

RYan Denney played very well in a forced starter role last year. He's going into the final year of his contract, so he'll be around next year.

Chris Ellis was a disaster last year, but he was only a rookie. The Bills invested a third round pick in him. It's highly doubtful they'll continue to let him toil at the end of the bench and not give him a shot at more playing time.

That leaves Chris Kelsay. In my opinion, we absolutely must cut him. But from what i've gathered from people I've talked to and/or heard, Kelsay isn't going anywhere. I checked with our cap expert (Clump) and according to him the Bills would have no cap savings by cutting him at all, another factor that may keep him around. He's still under contract for two more seasons (let me reiterate what a terrible deal this is)

So if we're going to sign a free agent or take a top DE in the draft, then how can he NOT be cut? I highly doubt Ellis would be a 5th DE, unless the bills are ready to say he's a bust after only one year.

Kelsay has gotta go.. It won't be a financial move, it'll be a football move.

[Patti120]

Kelsay is a d captain so I would think Denney might be the odd man out. Who the heck knows what will happen though.

[PECKERWOOD]

I think that both Kelsay and Copeland are replaceable.. I would keep Schobel, Denney and Ellis. Spend a high draft choice on a DE and then maybe another pick on a DE in rounds 3-7.

[Mitchell55]

Keep Schobel, Ellis, Denney, and Bryan. Rest our gone. Draft either 2 DEs or 1 DE and 1 FA DE.

[PECKERWOOD]

Aren't we like 25 million under the cap? I'm pretty sure that we could afford a couple cap casualities if it meant upgrading the team.

[Turbo.GUN.Hawk!]

^ You really think our franchise has the intention to maximize our cap space?

[jamze132]

This team doesn't really like dead cap. And they never release ANYONE based solely on the game of football.

[bflobarry]

Cap or no cap, Kelsay absolutely sucks against the run AND the pass and must be cut. He is easily, in my mind, the worst starter on a weak team. Those who compare him to Schobel simply do not know football. Sorry....

[bigbub2352]

would be nice to send a message to this team that terrible play at the position wont be tolerated, Kelsay is a joke at DE, and the organization has shoved him down our throats for 6-7yrs now
We need to cut him and have schobel, draft pick, denney, ellis, bryan, and johnson at DE next yr

[jimbohastle51]

i think it is one of those things were, we SHOULD cut him but we CANT cut him. it would be a wise football move and open up playing time for a FA/draft pick, but if all we do is loose money and get no cap savings there is no way ralph is going to do that. he is too cheap to loose that kind of money on a player which the coaching staff is high on for some reason. if it is a coach and they stink, well they stink and you have to make the move (i really believe the only reason jauron was retained is because all of the good coaching candidates arnt available till next year and there was no better to replace him other than another unexpierienced coordinator) but with a player like kelsay the FO still thinks he is young enough where there is a chance he can still turn it on and have a solid year. i guess it is the lesser of 2 evils and wilson isnt going to especially pay a player to go play for another team.

[OpIv37]

We paid him a big signing bonus so if we cut him Buffalo would still be paying for him even though he is gone. .

I don't think this is correct. Buffalo's "cash to cap" strategy means that a player's signing bonus isn't amortized, ie, they take the full bonus hit in the first year of the contract and then a player's cap number in the out years is pretty much exactly his salary.

Now, I don't know if this strategy was used on Kelsay or not- I'd have to check with Clump- but I believe cutting Kelsay would not be expensive.

[Oaf]

Pat, in this situation you've outlined, I see Bills continuing to beat around the bush and continue their ignorance by not taking a DE high. Schobel's not leaving, they don't have the guts to cut Kelsay, and Denney actually did an average job at DE.

We can only pray that BJ will be around at DT if we want a lineman in the 1st.

[BillsWin]

Kelsay must go, because he must go. period.

[tat2dmike77]

Damn Pat you wrote all that i didn't bother to read it because the simple answer is=======he sucks!

[Block "O"]

I love slow white DE's.

[Ebenezer]

I don't think this is correct. Buffalo's "cash to cap" strategy means that a player's signing bonus isn't amortized, ie, they take the full bonus hit in the first year of the contract and then a player's cap number in the out years is pretty much exactly his salary.

That is incorrect...by league rules all signing bonuses are amortized. You are not grasping the concept of "cash to cap".

[Ebenezer]

Kelsay doesn't have to go any where.

Sign a premiere RDE and slide Schobel over to Phil Hansen's old spot. Denney, Kelsay and Ellis are the back ups. Problem solved. The salary cap has increased so much, and the Bills are far enough under it, that it is irrelevant what any player is paid...all that matters is that the Bills are over the total minimum spent.

[HHURRICANE]

Its obvious to all of us and I'm assuming even our incompetent front office realizes our defense isn't going to get better until we get better at defensive end, especially with the pass rush.

But making a major move is easier said than done. Bad contracts and perhaps a bad draft pick last year make the process harder.

Assuming Aaron Schobel will be healthy, he's going nowhere. He still has 4-years remaining on his deal and it would cost the Bills money to cut him, they wouldn't save a dime.

RYan Denney played very well in a forced starter role last year. He's going into the final year of his contract, so he'll be around next year.

Chris Ellis was a disaster last year, but he was only a rookie. The Bills invested a third round pick in him. It's highly doubtful they'll continue to let him toil at the end of the bench and not give him a shot at more playing time.

That leaves Chris Kelsay. In my opinion, we absolutely must cut him. But from what i've gathered from people I've talked to and/or heard, Kelsay isn't going anywhere. I checked with our cap expert (Clump) and according to him the Bills would have no cap savings by cutting him at all, another factor that may keep him around. He's still under contract for two more seasons (let me reiterate what a terrible deal this is)

So if we're going to sign a free agent or take a top DE in the draft, then how can he NOT be cut? I highly doubt Ellis would be a 5th DE, unless the bills are ready to say he's a bust after only one year.

Kelsay has gotta go.. It won't be a financial move, it'll be a football move.

1) Schobel's contract is a bad as Kelsays. Probably worse in the sense that we have tons of money tied up in a player that sucks. If the team is going to get better than finding Schobel's replacement is as important as Kelsay's.

2) At the time, the Bills had absolutely no choice on Kelsay. He was the best DE to hit FA so we would have replaced him with somebody significantly worse while not addressing other key holes on the team. It sucked but it was the reality of the situation.

3) Ellis looked horrible. Not fair, not bad, but horrible. So the logic is that we keep a guy who sucks because he's our 3rd rounder?

The reality is that the Bills have to draft their DEs because there is no way Peppers or Suggs ends up in Buffalo. Anyone holding out hope in FA is going to be disappointed.

[TacklingDummy]

I don't think this is correct. Buffalo's "cash to cap" strategy means that a player's signing bonus isn't amortized, ie, they take the full bonus hit in the first year of the contract and then a player's cap number in the out years is pretty much exactly his salary.


Using this theory if the Bills redo Peters contract, Peters will take most of the money the Bills have to spend, around $29 million.

Don't look for any big free agent signings if the Bills do. Those who want to give Peters the money better not complain the Bills didn't go out and sign someone.

[HHURRICANE]

Using this theory if the Bills redo Peters contract, Peters will take most of the money the Bills have to spend, around $29 million.

Don't look for any big free agent signings if the Bills do. Those who want to give Peters the money better not complain the Bills didn't go out and sign someone.

It's early and I'm at work but I don't think any player gets $29 million up front. I think you are refferring to guaranteed. Dockery's contarct is like 56 million but only 26 million of it is guaranteed.

The guaranteed money is paid in the year that it is due.

How much did Evans get for a signing bonus?

[Philagape]

2) At the time, the Bills had absolutely no choice on Kelsay. He was the best DE to hit FA so we would have replaced him with somebody significantly worse while not addressing other key holes on the team. It sucked but it was the reality of the situation.

Kerney was available, and he went on to have 14.5 sacks. His deal was less than a million per year more than Kelsay's.
And anyway, it's better to get worse and then go for better than lock in long-term mediocrity at such a crucial position. Lack of a pass rush is killing us. Gambling is preferable to the status quo.

[madness]

Kelsay shouldn't be going anywhere, especially this year. Otherwise we mind as well get rid of Stroud and KW too so we can replace all 4 starting positions in one off-season.

Nobody should be counting on Schobel to play a full season next year.

[casdhf]

Denney will go.

[patmoran2006]

Denney was CLEARLY better than kelsay.
is cheaper and has only one year left on his deal (Kelsay too)

Why would Denney go before Kelsay?

[Griz78]

I agree that Kelsay should go but I highly doubt they will cut him. I am still for drafting a DE in Round 1, at least to get a real-pash rush on third down.

Ellis would be dropped to the 5th DE but perhaps if he shows something in the pre-season then we could cut ties with Denney or Kelsay.

[patmoran2006]

if we're dropping early 3rd round draft choices to the 5th spot on the depth chart after only one year.

Then its time for whoever is doing the drafting to get canned.

[TacklingDummy]

How much did Evans get for a signing bonus?

I think he cost the Bills around $11 million last year. Do you not think that Jason Peters will want more?

Say Peters gets $15 million, that means the Bills have around $15 million left to spend on all other Free Agents and draft picks. If they do pay Peters, Peters will be the only name player the Bills sign this year. Are you excited yet?

[PECKERWOOD]

I think he cost the Bills around $11 million last year. Do you not think that Jason Peters will want more?

Say Peters gets $15 million, that means the Bills have around $15 million left to spend on all other Free Agents and draft picks. If they do pay Peters, Peters will be the only name player the Bills sign this year. Are you excited yet?

I'm not a number expert by no means but aren't we already paying Peters 3.5 a year? If we paid Peters 8.5 millie a year for the next 3 years, wouldn't that be the equivalent of signing a FA to a 3yr/15mil dollar deal this offseason?

[jimbohastle51]

Denney was CLEARLY better than kelsay.
is cheaper and has only one year left on his deal (Kelsay too)

Why would Denney go before Kelsay?

i believe 58 total tackles and 4 sacks, and he only has 1 more year at a VERY affordable price.... this guy might be the best deal on our roster at DE position, he isnt overpaid and he is a nice run stopper. he isnt paid to get 10 sacks a year, he is paid to stop the run and bat balls down at the line of scrimmage, and he does both well. kelsay is not worth his pay but he is a dick jauron guy so he will be here regardless.

[Ebenezer]

again, i think folks are missing the point...we have three phil hansen's on the team...i mean that in an average sense. Schobel is better than Hansen. Denny and Kelsay are slightly lower than Hansen. None of them can play to potential because we don't have that overpowering RDE. If the Bills get that then this conversation is moot.

[TacklingDummy]

I'm not a number expert by no means but aren't we already paying Peters 3.5 a year? If we paid Peters 8.5 millie a year for the next 3 years, wouldn't that be the equivalent of signing a FA to a 3yr/15mil dollar deal this offseason?

Not sure.

If the Bills give Peters a $15 million signing bonus don't they put that whole $15 million towards their "cash to crap"?

[Ebenezer]

Not sure.

If the Bills give Peters a $15 million signing bonus don't they put that whole $15 million towards their "cash to crap"?
some folks need to stop talking about the salary cap. :shakeno:

[TacklingDummy]

some folks need to stop talking about the salary cap. :shakeno:

Why's that?

[Ebenezer]

Why's that?
because you don't understand how it works.

[TacklingDummy]

because you don't understand how it works.

I understand the Bills cash to cap. In simple terms the Bills are using a hard cap.