Value for our 11th pick

[Yasgur's Farm]

Here's who I want in order of preference at #11...

WR Michael Crabtree - I know, I know... He won't be there... But if he is we'd be insane to pass on him.

OLB Aaron Curry - The perfect example of need vs value.

DT BJ Raji - Not the DE or OLB our D really needs, but good enough to make the players we have better.

OT's Eugene Monroe, Andre Smith, or Jason Smith - YES! Before DE. We can't pass on this value here... Especially when we consider where Jason Peters spends training camp.

DE's Everette Brown or Brian Orakpo - I have them higher if the Bills ran a 3 - 4 D. However... I think they would both help our D THIS SEASON. Who knows... Maybe we could run that "creep" D a lot.

OT Michael Oher - See above OT's.

OLB Brian Cushing - I hope it doesn't come to this but I need to name 11.

TE Brandon Pettigrew - This would be our absolute last resort.

[jimbohastle51]

<table id="inlinetable" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1" width="100%"><tbody><tr><th colspan="16" style="background-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Draft Pick Value Chart</th> </tr><tr style="background-color: rgb(236, 236, 236);" valign="top"> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: rgb(153, 153, 153);">Round 1</td> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: rgb(153, 153, 153);">Round 2</td> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: rgb(153, 153, 153);">Round 3</td> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: rgb(153, 153, 153);">Round 4</td> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: rgb(153, 153, 153);">Round 5</td> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: rgb(153, 153, 153);">Round 6</td> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: rgb(153, 153, 153);">Round 7</td> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: rgb(153, 153, 153);">Other</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" valign="top"> <td>1</td> <td>3000</td> <td>33</td> <td>580</td> <td>65</td> <td>265</td> <td>97</td> <td>112</td> <td>129</td> <td>43</td> <td>161</td> <td>28</td> <td>193</td> <td>15.2</td> <td>225</td> <td>2.9</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(236, 236, 236);" valign="top"> <td>2</td> <td>2600</td> <td>34</td> <td>560</td> <td>66</td> <td>260</td> <td>98</td> <td>108</td> <td>130</td> <td>42</td> <td>162</td> <td>27.6</td> <td>194</td> <td>14.8</td> <td>226</td> <td>2.8</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" valign="top"> <td>3</td> <td>2200</td> <td>35</td> <td>550</td> <td>67</td> <td>255</td> <td>99</td> <td>104</td> <td>131</td> <td>41</td> <td>163</td> <td>27.2</td> <td>195</td> <td>14.4</td> <td>227</td> <td>2.7</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(236, 236, 236);" valign="top"> <td>4</td> <td>1800</td> <td>36</td> <td>540</td> <td>68</td> <td>250</td> <td>100</td> <td>100</td> <td>132</td> <td>40</td> <td>164</td> <td>26.8</td> <td>196</td> <td>14</td> <td>228</td> <td>2.6</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" valign="top"> <td>5</td> <td>1700</td> <td>37</td> <td>530</td> <td>69</td> <td>245</td> <td>101</td> <td>96</td> <td>133</td> <td>39.5</td> <td>165</td> <td>26.4</td> <td>197</td> <td>13.6</td> <td>229</td> <td>2.5</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(236, 236, 236);" valign="top"> <td>6</td> <td>1600</td> <td>38</td> <td>520</td> <td>70</td> <td>240</td> <td>102</td> <td>92</td> <td>134</td> <td>39</td> <td>166</td> <td>26</td> <td>198</td> <td>13.2</td> <td>230</td> <td>2.4</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" valign="top"> <td>7</td> <td>1500</td> <td>39</td> <td>510</td> <td>71</td> <td>235</td> <td>103</td> <td>88</td> <td>135</td> <td>38.5</td> <td>167</td> <td>25.6</td> <td>199</td> <td>12.8</td> <td>231</td> <td>2.3</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(236, 236, 236);" valign="top"> <td>8</td> <td>1400</td> <td>40</td> <td>500</td> <td>72</td> <td>230</td> <td>104</td> <td>86</td> <td>136</td> <td>38</td> <td>168</td> <td>25.2</td> <td>200</td> <td>12.4</td> <td>232</td> <td>2.2</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" valign="top"> <td>9</td> <td>1350</td> <td>41</td> <td>490</td> <td>73</td> <td>225</td> <td>105</td> <td>84</td> <td>137</td> <td>37.5</td> <td>169</td> <td>24.8</td> <td>201</td> <td>12</td> <td>233</td> <td>2.1</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(236, 236, 236);" valign="top"> <td>10</td> <td>1300</td> <td>42</td> <td>480</td> <td>74</td> <td>220</td> <td>106</td> <td>82</td> <td>138</td> <td>37</td> <td>170</td> <td>24.4</td> <td>202</td> <td>11.6</td> <td>234</td> <td>2</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" valign="top"> <td>11</td> <td>1250</td> <td>43</td> <td>470</td> <td>75</td> <td>215</td> <td>107</td> <td>80</td> <td>139</td> <td>36.5</td> <td>171</td> <td>24</td> <td>203</td> <td>11.2</td> <td>235</td> <td>1.9</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(236, 236, 236);" valign="top"> <td>12</td> <td>1200</td> <td>44</td> <td>460</td> <td>76</td> <td>210</td> <td>108</td> <td>78</td> <td>140</td> <td>36</td> <td>172</td> <td>23.6</td> <td>204</td> <td>10.8</td> <td>236</td> <td>1.8</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" valign="top"> <td>13</td> <td>1150</td> <td>45</td> <td>450</td> <td>77</td> <td>205</td> <td>109</td> <td>76</td> <td>141</td> <td>35.5</td> <td>173</td> <td>23.2</td> <td>205</td> <td>10.4</td> <td>237</td> <td>1.7</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(236, 236, 236);" valign="top"> <td>14</td> <td>1100</td> <td>46</td> <td>440</td> <td>78</td> <td>200</td> <td>110</td> <td>74</td> <td>142</td> <td>35</td> <td>174</td> <td>22.8</td> <td>206</td> <td>10</td> <td>238</td> <td>1.6</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" valign="top"> <td>15</td> <td>1050</td> <td>47</td> <td>430</td> <td>79</td> <td>195</td> <td>111</td> <td>72</td> <td>143</td> <td>34.5</td> <td>175</td> <td>22.4</td> <td>207</td> <td>9.6</td> <td>239</td> <td>1.5</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(236, 236, 236);" valign="top"> <td>16</td> <td>1000</td> <td>48</td> <td>420</td> <td>80</td> <td>190</td> <td>112</td> <td>70</td> <td>144</td> <td>34</td> <td>176</td> <td>22</td> <td>208</td> <td>9.2</td> <td>240</td> <td>1.4</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" valign="top"> <td>17</td> <td>950</td> <td>49</td> <td>410</td> <td>81</td> <td>185</td> <td>113</td> <td>68</td> <td>145</td> <td>33.5</td> <td>177</td> <td>21.6</td> <td>209</td> <td>8.8</td> <td>241</td> <td>1.3</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(236, 236, 236);" valign="top"> <td>18</td> <td>900</td> <td>50</td> <td>400</td> <td>82</td> <td>180</td> <td>114</td> <td>66</td> <td>146</td> <td>33</td> <td>178</td> <td>21.2</td> <td>210</td> <td>8.4</td> <td>242</td> <td>1.2</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" valign="top"> <td>19</td> <td>875</td> <td>51</td> <td>390</td> <td>83</td> <td>175</td> <td>115</td> <td>64</td> <td>147</td> <td>32.6</td> <td>179</td> <td>20.8</td> <td>211</td> <td>8</td> <td>243</td> <td>1.1</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(236, 236, 236);" valign="top"> <td>20</td> <td>850</td> <td>52</td> <td>380</td> <td>84</td> <td>170</td> <td>116</td> <td>62</td> <td>148</td> <td>32.2</td> <td>180</td> <td>20.4</td> <td>212</td> <td>7.6</td> <td>244</td> <td>1</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" valign="top"> <td>21</td> <td>800</td> <td>53</td> <td>370</td> <td>85</td> <td>165</td> <td>117</td> <td>60</td> <td>149</td> <td>31.8</td> <td>181</td> <td>20</td> <td>213</td> <td>7.2</td> <td>245</td> <td>0.95</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(236, 236, 236);" valign="top"> <td>22</td> <td>780</td> <td>54</td> <td>360</td> <td>86</td> <td>160</td> <td>118</td> <td>58</td> <td>150</td> <td>31.4</td> <td>182</td> <td>19.6</td> <td>214</td> <td>6.8</td> <td>246</td> <td>0.9</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" valign="top"> <td>23</td> <td>760</td> <td>55</td> <td>350</td> <td>87</td> <td>155</td> <td>119</td> <td>56</td> <td>151</td> <td>31</td> <td>183</td> <td>19.2</td> <td>215</td> <td>6.4</td> <td>247</td> <td>0.85</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(236, 236, 236);" valign="top"> <td>24</td> <td>740</td> <td>56</td> <td>340</td> <td>88</td> <td>150</td> <td>120</td> <td>54</td> <td>152</td> <td>31.8</td> <td>184</td> <td>18.8</td> <td>216</td> <td>6</td> <td>248</td> <td>0.8</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" valign="top"> <td>25</td> <td>720</td> <td>57</td> <td>330</td> <td>89</td> <td>145</td> <td>121</td> <td>52</td> <td>153</td> <td>31.2</td> <td>185</td> <td>18.4</td> <td>217</td> <td>5.6</td> <td>249</td> <td>0.75</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(236, 236, 236);" valign="top"> <td>26</td> <td>700</td> <td>58</td> <td>320</td> <td>90</td> <td>140</td> <td>122</td> <td>50</td> <td>154</td> <td>30.8</td> <td>186</td> <td>18</td> <td>218</td> <td>5.2</td> <td>250</td> <td>0.7</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" valign="top"> <td>27</td> <td>680</td> <td>59</td> <td>310</td> <td>91</td> <td>136</td> <td>123</td> <td>49</td> <td>155</td> <td>30.4</td> <td>187</td> <td>17.6</td> <td>219</td> <td>4.8</td> <td>251</td> <td>0.65</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(236, 236, 236);" valign="top"> <td>28</td> <td>660</td> <td>60</td> <td>300</td> <td>92</td> <td>132</td> <td>124</td> <td>48</td> <td>156</td> <td>30</td> <td>188</td> <td>17.2</td> <td>220</td> <td>4.4</td> <td>252</td> <td>0.6</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" valign="top"> <td>29</td> <td>640</td> <td>61</td> <td>292</td> <td>93</td> <td>128</td> <td>125</td> <td>47</td> <td>157</td> <td>29.6</td> <td>189</td> <td>16.8</td> <td>221</td> <td>4</td> <td>253</td> <td>0.55</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(236, 236, 236);" valign="top"> <td>30</td> <td>620</td> <td>62</td> <td>284</td> <td>94</td> <td>124</td> <td>126</td> <td>46</td> <td>158</td> <td>29.2</td> <td>190</td> <td>16.4</td> <td>222</td> <td>3.6</td> <td>254</td> <td>0.5</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" valign="top"> <td>31</td> <td>600</td> <td>63</td> <td>276</td> <td>95</td> <td>120</td> <td>127</td> <td>45</td> <td>159</td> <td>28.8</td> <td>191</td> <td>16</td> <td>223</td> <td>3.3</td> <td>255</td> <td>0.45</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(236, 236, 236);" valign="top"> <td>32</td> <td>590</td> <td>64</td> <td>270</td> <td>96</td> <td>116</td> <td>128</td> <td>44</td> <td>160</td> <td>28.4</td> <td>192</td> <td>15.6</td> <td>224</td> <td>3</td> <td>256</td> <td>0.4</td></tr></tbody></table>

[jimbohastle51]

wasnt sure if anyone else had this, but it is a copy of the value chart and hope much value each pick has based on a points system (it is how teams decide to trade picks for picks and so on) according to the chart our 1st pick is worth 1250 points.

[jimbohastle51]

should help people see how much it would or wouldnt take to trade up or down to find our player or the player that you want.

[Mahdi]

Here's who I want in order of preference at #11...

WR Michael Crabtree - I know, I know... He won't be there... But if he is we'd be insane to pass on him.

OLB Aaron Curry - The perfect example of need vs value.

DT BJ Raji - Not the DE or OLB our D really needs, but good enough to make the players we have better.

OT's Eugene Monroe, Andre Smith, or Jason Smith - YES! Before DE. We can't pass on this value here... Especially when we consider where Jason Peters spends training camp.

DE's Everette Brown or Brian Orakpo - I have them higher if the Bills ran a 3 - 4 D. However... I think they would both help our D THIS SEASON. Who knows... Maybe we could run that "creep" D a lot.

OT Michael Oher - See above OT's.

OLB Brian Cushing - I hope it doesn't come to this but I need to name 11.

TE Brandon Pettigrew - This would be our absolute last resort.
Were you not watching the Bills this season? Do you really think that Aaron Curry will help this defense when he is covering for 5 seconds every snap?

I dont care if we have Derrick Brooks, Ray Lewis and Keith Bullock as our LBs, if you cant get to the QB it doesnt make a difference who you have in the back 7.

OT before DE? how did you come to this conclusion? We already have one of the best OT tandems in the NFL and both are still young. That would be a horrible move.

DE MUST be the first pick in this draft. Orakpo, Brown, Michael Johnson.

[Yasgur's Farm]

wasnt sure if anyone else had this, but it is a copy of the value chart and hope much value each pick has based on a points system (it is how teams decide to trade picks for picks and so on) according to the chart our 1st pick is worth 1250 points.read the thread before you post

[jimbohastle51]

i did read your thread, its "value for our 11th pick" and i posted the value chart which states the value of our eleveth pick, and what it would take to move up or down to get one of the players you suggested if we decide to move in the 1st round.

[PECKERWOOD]

I want B.J. Raji and Michael Johnson -- get them both, GET R DONE!

[sting32]

I agree with draz, he's always on point. I'd like curry or crabtree.

[jimbohastle51]

i dont think there is a team in the draft that doesnt want crabtree, he is the calvin johnson of this draft (maybe not the first pick, but the best talent), if he fell to the bills they would have to take him if only for trade bait they'd have to take him, but i dont he him getting out of the top 5. seattle is on him like no other especially after last season, it seemed like every free agent they brought in to replace there starters that were already on IR went on IR LOL!

[Yasgur's Farm]

i did read your thread, its "value for our 11th pick" and i posted the value chart which states the value of our eleveth pick, and what it would take to move up or down to get one of the players you suggested if we decide to move in the 1st round.
Here's who I want in order of preference at #11...Nothing to do with value chart... Same as McDonald's value menu.

I guarantee 1 of these players will be there at #11. There's no moving up or down.

[Jan Reimers]

TE Brandon Pettigrew - This would be our absolute last resort.
Not according to that self-appointed guru, Mel Kiper, Jr. But I agree, draz, we have far greater needs than TE (particularly with Fine showing some potential.) I really can't see us drafting a TE at 11, unless he's an absolute superstar, which Pettigrew is not.

[DraftBoy]

Were you not watching the Bills this season? Do you really think that Aaron Curry will help this defense when he is covering for 5 seconds every snap?

I dont care if we have Derrick Brooks, Ray Lewis and Keith Bullock as our LBs, if you cant get to the QB it doesnt make a difference who you have in the back 7.

OT before DE? how did you come to this conclusion? We already have one of the best OT tandems in the NFL and both are still young. That would be a horrible move.

DE MUST be the first pick in this draft. Orakpo, Brown, Michael Johnson.

Just taking a DE does not mean the pass rush is fixed. According to numerous scouts now (Mayock being the lead guy) none of the guys you listed will be 4-3 DE's in the NFL. Yet you still want us to take them??

[Mahdi]

Just taking a DE does not mean the pass rush is fixed. According to numerous scouts now (Mayock being the lead guy) none of the guys you listed will be 4-3 DE's in the NFL. Yet you still want us to take them??
Just because Mayock says they are projected to be 3-4 OLBs it doesnt mean he is saying they cant play as DEs in a 4-3. I remember when Gaines Adams came out Mayock also said that he projects as a 3-4 OLB and that a 3-4 team should take him, well he is turning out to be a pretty nice player for the Bucs who have one of the best defenses in the NFL.

Besides, Schobel is 6'4 245, Robert Mathis is 6'2 245, John Abraham is 6'4 263, Aaron Kampman is 6'3 265, Leonard Little is 6'3 263, Osi Umenyiora is 6'3 261....

Brian Orakpo is 6'4 260, Brown is 6'4 255 and Michael Johnson is 6'7 260...

The bottom line with all these guys is that they are all roughly the same size and they are all pass rushers which we desperately need... Most of the guys listed here who are already in the NFL could have been successful as 3-4 OLBs easily.

If we take one of those 3 DEs they will continue to play with their hand in the ground as they did in college and if they get drafted by a 3-4 team they will have to adjust to playing in coverage and in space.

Also, most college players add between 5-10 pounds when they get to the NFL. We need a pass rusher and any one of those 3 has the athletic and playmaking ability to do that in any scheme.

Lastly, cover 2 DEs are typically lighter and faster than the average DE so a 6'4 260 pounder like Orakpo is an excellent fit, not to mention the guy is extremely powerful and plays the run well.

[DraftBoy]

Just because Mayock says they are projected to be 3-4 OLBs it doesnt mean he is saying they cant play as DEs in a 4-3. I remember when Gaines Adams came out Mayock also said that he projects as a 3-4 OLB and that a 3-4 team should take him, well he is turning out to be a pretty nice player for the Bucs who have one of the best defenses in the NFL.

Besides, Schobel is 6'4 245, Robert Mathis is 6'2 245, John Abraham is 6'4 263, Aaron Kampman is 6'3 265, Leonard Little is 6'3 263, Osi Umenyiora is 6'3 261....

Brian Orakpo is 6'4 260, Brown is 6'4 255 and Michael Johnson is 6'7 260...

The bottom line with all these guys is that they are all roughly the same size and they are all pass rushers which we desperately need... Most of the guys listed here who are already in the NFL could have been successful as 3-4 OLBs easily.

If we take one of those 3 DEs they will continue to play with their hand in the ground as they did in college and if they get drafted by a 3-4 team they will have to adjust to playing in coverage and in space.

Also, most college players add between 5-10 pounds when they get to the NFL. We need a pass rusher and any one of those 3 has the athletic and playmaking ability to do that in any scheme.

Lastly, cover 2 DEs are typically lighter and faster than the average DE so a 6'4 260 pounder like Orakpo is an excellent fit, not to mention the guy is extremely powerful and plays the run well.

Your weights are based off of what? Nobody has any idea right now till the combine next month, so we can hold off all comparisons till then.

Also aren't er trying to get away from the pass rush specialist mold that Abraham and Schobel represent and trying to get a more complete DE. All three DE's you mentioned will not be impact players next season, they will not solve our pass rush woes. They have too many holes in their current games to be every down DE's and make an impact.

[Mahdi]

Your weights are based off of what? Nobody has any idea right now till the combine next month, so we can hold off all comparisons till then.

Also aren't er trying to get away from the pass rush specialist mold that Abraham and Schobel represent and trying to get a more complete DE. All three DE's you mentioned will not be impact players next season, they will not solve our pass rush woes. They have too many holes in their current games to be every down DE's and make an impact.
Im sorry how do you know they wont be impact players next year?

They could each end up with 15 sacks for all you know.

Btw who says were trying to get away from the Abraham mold? Abraham was in the playoffs, Abraham had 15 sacks and pressured Qbs all season. Thats what we need, let Stoud and Williams worry about the run. And if we had been able to stop opponents on 3rd down then we would have been much better against the run this year. We couldnt though because of the lack of pass rush which means you stay on the field longer and you get tired and allow more yards on the ground.

You telling me you wouldnt take Mathis or Abraham or Kampman or Umenyiora?

And on the college guys, most college players have holes in their game somewhere, but from what I have read, none of the three I have mentioned are known as weak against the run, its not their strength but they can still play the run just fine. Personally, I just want a guy who will get our D off the field when we need it.

[DraftBoy]

Apparently you haven't read a lot then. Orakpo will run himself out of plays in over aggressivness/pusuit. Brown has little versatility moves wise and need to work on his footwork, Johnson has to show more consistency and live up to his hype. None of these guys are great at the POA or can really hold their ground well. They rely on athleticism not technique and fundamentals to be successful. That's the kind of rookies who struggle the most early on. Those that were better athletes in college and never needed to learn things the right way. Look at Roscoe Parrish on our team, hell of an athlete not a good NFL WR. Heck look at Jamal Anderson on Atlanta a freak athlete out of Arkansas two years ago but has struggled because his technique was not poor.


I will sit here right now and say not one of those guys is getting 15 sacks as a DE in a 4-3 system. Its just not happening and to argue that it might so we should then take them is to void any logical argument you could make. You don't draft on hopes and wishes to do so is a mistake.

[Mahdi]

Apparently you haven't read a lot then. Orakpo will run himself out of plays in over aggressivness/pusuit. Brown has little versatility moves wise and need to work on his footwork, Johnson has to show more consistency and live up to his hype. None of these guys are great at the POA or can really hold their ground well. They rely on athleticism not technique and fundamentals to be successful. That's the kind of rookies who struggle the most early on. Those that were better athletes in college and never needed to learn things the right way. Look at Roscoe Parrish on our team, hell of an athlete not a good NFL WR. Heck look at Jamal Anderson on Atlanta a freak athlete out of Arkansas two years ago but has struggled because his technique was not poor.


I will sit here right now and say not one of those guys is getting 15 sacks as a DE in a 4-3 system. Its just not happening and to argue that it might so we should then take them is to void any logical argument you could make. You don't draft on hopes and wishes to do so is a mistake.
All these same criticisms have been said before about countless players. There are only a handful of players who actually dont have any holes in their game and they usually end up being the #1 pick in the draft and as we've seen some of them bust.

For someone who is so enlightened about the draft you really get caught up in what is said about players coming out in the draft. Do you really think a so called draft expert writing up reports on each player wont include what he believes their weaknesses are? of course he will, its called draft hype.

Do I read this stuff? Yes,,, most of it in fact, but I take it with a grain of salt because you never know how a player will turn out no matter how well we think we know them.

So if Orakpo is on the board and Im a GM there's no way I pass on him because he (according to some sports writers) over pursues.

He is strong, fast and has proven that he is disruptive in the backfield and pressures QBs, the details I leave to my coaching staff to sort out. Hopefully they can teach a DE not to "over pursue."

By the way most of the successful pass rushers in the league arent over-powering at the POA, and they dont need to be. You defend the run as a team and when third and long comes you kill the QB. Buffalo is solid in the middle so it wont hurt to have a player who isnt great but only sufficient at run defense, the most important thing is to get to QBs.


I remember having this exact argument with you last year over which DE we should draft. You wanted Merling, who ended up as a 3-4 DE where he belongs and I wanted Cliff Avril. You said Avril could only play as a 3-4 OLB for all the same reasons you just posted. Avril ended the season with 5 sacks and 4 of them were sack fumbles. He was just on a horrible team. Wait till he gets help on that DL.

[justasportsfan]

If people want instant fixes, you go via FA. Any of the DE's in this years draft look to be better than Marrio Williams?

[DraftBoy]

If people want instant fixes, you go via FA. Any of the DE's in this years draft look to be better than Marrio Williams?

Not even close.

[Mahdi]

Not even close.
So just because there's no sure fire Mario Williams it means we shouldnt draft DE? We could easily end up with a Freeney or a Mathis or a Umenyiora. I can handle that...and that would be enough to get this defense where it needs to be. Even if the player we select plays his first year as a 3rd down specialist in pass rush situations it would be a huge boost for our D.

[DraftBoy]

All these same criticisms have been said before about countless players. There are only a handful of players who actually dont have any holes in their game and they usually end up being the #1 pick in the draft and as we've seen some of them bust.

For someone who is so enlightened about the draft you really get caught up in what is said about players coming out in the draft. Do you really think a so called draft expert writing up reports on each player wont include what he believes their weaknesses are? of course he will, its called draft hype.

Do I read this stuff? Yes,,, most of it in fact, but I take it with a grain of salt because you never know how a player will turn out no matter how well we think we know them.

So if Orakpo is on the board and Im a GM there's no way I pass on him because he (according to some sports writers) over pursues.

He is strong, fast and has proven that he is disruptive in the backfield and pressures QBs, the details I leave to my coaching staff to sort out. Hopefully they can teach a DE not to "over pursue."

By the way most of the successful pass rushers in the league arent over-powering at the POA, and they dont need to be. You defend the run as a team and when third and long comes you kill the QB. Buffalo is solid in the middle so it wont hurt to have a player who isnt great but only sufficient at run defense, the most important thing is to get to QBs.


I remember having this exact argument with you last year over which DE we should draft. You wanted Merling, who ended up as a 3-4 DE where he belongs and I wanted Cliff Avril. You said Avril could only play as a 3-4 OLB for all the same reasons you just posted. Avril ended the season with 5 sacks and 4 of them were sack fumbles. He was just on a horrible team. Wait till he gets help on that DL.

Just so Im completely clear on what your argument is here. You dont care what anybody says about a player, because in your words you just take that stuff "with a grain of salt"...explain to me then what the purpose of you discussing prospects is, if you don't care what anybody else thinks about them?

[DraftBoy]

So just because there's no sure fire Mario Williams it means we shouldnt draft DE? We could easily end up with a Freeney or a Mathis or a Umenyiora. I can handle that...and that would be enough to get this defense where it needs to be. Even if the player we select plays his first year as a 3rd down specialist in pass rush situations it would be a huge boost for our D.

That is exactly what the words "Not even close" mean! I will call Merriam Webster right now to inform them of the new definition! Thank you! How would you like them to credit you on the new definition?

In all seriousness, how about instead of just assuming what Im saying, take the extra 5 seconds and why don't you ask me what I think about drafting a DE in this draft. Instead of just assuming you think you know my opinion on the topic.

[PECKERWOOD]

Maclin, Curry, Johnson and Raji.

If we draft anybody else at #11, I will be royally pissed off.

[Block "O"]

I'm very confused with many of the mocks here??? I have seen Maulaluga, Raji, Jenkins, and Curry??? None of these guys will be available. Are you guys anticipating a trade up? or what?

[Yasgur's Farm]

Nope! In my eyes it's a weird top 10 this year. A lot of teams can get good balance in the value/need ratio anywhere in the top 10.

Here's the needs according to http://football.about.com/cs/nfldraft/a/bl_mockdraft.htm
I don't necessarily agree with them... But it gives a feel for how things could go.

1. Detroit Lions (http://football.about.com/od/teamneeds/a/teamneeds_DET.htm) - Eugene Monroe, OT Virginia
Team Needs: CB (http://football.about.com/cs/positionalranking/a/nfldraftcbrank.htm) OT (http://football.about.com/cs/positionalranking/a/nfldraftotrank.htm) TE (http://football.about.com/cs/positionalranking/a/nfldraftterank.htm) QB (http://football.about.com/cs/positionalranking/a/nfldraftqbrank.htm) DE (http://football.about.com/cs/positionalranking/a/nfldraftderank.htm) DT (http://football.about.com/cs/positionalranking/a/nfldraftdtrank.htm) ILB (http://football.about.com/cs/positionalranking/a/nfldraftilbrank.htm)
Generally I would advocate taking a potential franchise quarterback in this position, but without major improvements on their offensive line, that could be a big mistake. In my opinion, Monroe is the best pass protector in the draft, and will be a fixture at left tackle for the next decade for whoever drafts him. So I give him the edge here over Alabama's Andre Smith, who is more of the mauler type who is a devastating run blocker. Many mocks actually have Smith projected to go here, but I fear he will eventually end up as a right tackle or perhaps even a guard at the NFL level. Plus, the Lions could get lucky and have a signal caller like USC's Mark Sanchez or Kansas State's Josh Freeman fall to them with their second pick in the first round.
2. St. Louis Rams (http://football.about.com/od/teamneeds/a/teamneeds_STL.htm) - Andre Smith*, OT Alabama
Team Needs: OT (http://football.about.com/cs/positionalranking/a/nfldraftotrank.htm) WR (http://football.about.com/cs/positionalranking/a/nfldraftwrrank.htm) QB (http://football.about.com/cs/positionalranking/a/nfldraftqbrank.htm) DT (http://football.about.com/cs/positionalranking/a/nfldraftdtrank.htm) OLB (http://football.about.com/cs/positionalranking/a/nfldraftolbrank.htm) CB (http://football.about.com/cs/positionalranking/a/nfldraftcbrank.htm)
Orlando Pace continues to be the Rams' most consistent performer on the offensive line, but he is 33-years old now and durability is becoming a concern. Ohio State cornerback Malcolm Jenkins is a possibility here as well, as is USC linebacker Rey Maualuga.
3. Kansas City Chiefs (http://football.about.com/od/teamneeds/a/teamneeds_KC.htm) - Matthew Stafford (http://football.about.com/od/nflplayerprofiles/ig/Matt-Stafford/), QB Georgia
Team Needs: OT (http://football.about.com/cs/positionalranking/a/nfldraftotrank.htm) QB (http://football.about.com/cs/positionalranking/a/nfldraftqbrank.htm) CB (http://football.about.com/cs/positionalranking/a/nfldraftcbrank.htm) WR (http://football.about.com/cs/positionalranking/a/nfldraftwrrank.htm) OG (http://football.about.com/cs/positionalranking/a/nfldraftogrank.htm) C (http://football.about.com/cs/positionalranking/a/nfldraftcrank.htm) DE (http://football.about.com/cs/positionalranking/a/nfldraftderank.htm) ILB (http://football.about.com/cs/positionalranking/a/nfldraftilbrank.htm) OLB (http://football.about.com/cs/positionalranking/a/nfldraftolbrank.htm)
Tyler Thigpen showed some promise in 2008, but Stafford has the potential to develop into a big-time franchise quarterback if he can improve his decision-making under pressure. A defensive end to replace Jared Allen should be high on the team's wish list as well, but I'm not sure there's a true 4-3 style defensive end worth taking No. 3 overall.
4. Seattle Seahawks (http://football.about.com/od/teamneeds/a/teamneeds_SEA.htm) - Michael Crabtree*, WR Texas Tech
Team Needs: WR (http://football.about.com/cs/positionalranking/a/nfldraftwrrank.htm) OT (http://football.about.com/cs/positionalranking/a/nfldraftwrrank.htm) RB (http://football.about.com/cs/positionalranking/a/nfldraftrbrank.htm) DT (http://football.about.com/cs/positionalranking/a/nfldraftdtrank.htm)
Injuries have been a big concern for Deion Branch the last couple seasons, Bobby Engram will be 36 in January, and who knows how dependable Koren Robinson will be going forward. Crabtree is the top receiver on the board and would give the offense a much-needed shot in the arm. The Seahawks also could use an upgrade at running back and they also need to start thinking about life after left tackle Walter Jones retires.
5. Cleveland Browns (http://football.about.com/od/teamneeds/a/teamneeds_CLE.htm) - Aaron Maybin**, OLB/DE Penn State
Team Needs: RB (http://football.about.com/cs/positionalranking/a/nfldraftrbrank.htm) OLB (http://football.about.com/cs/positionalranking/a/nfldraftolbrank.htm) CB (http://football.about.com/cs/positionalranking/a/nfldraftcbrank.htm)
Willie McGinest is nearing the end of his career, and Maybin is probably the best hybrid available to fill the outside rush linebacker position. He could also push Kamerion Wimbly on the other side as well until McGinest decides to hang it up.
6. Cincinnati Bengals (http://football.about.com/od/teamneeds/a/teamneeds_CIN.htm) - Jason Smith, OT Baylor
Team Needs: OT (http://football.about.com/cs/positionalranking/a/nfldraftotrank.htm) WR (http://football.about.com/cs/positionalranking/a/nfldraftwrrank.htm) OG (http://football.about.com/cs/positionalranking/a/nfldraftogrank.htm) RB (http://football.about.com/cs/positionalranking/a/nfldraftrbrank.htm) DE (http://football.about.com/cs/positionalranking/a/nfldraftderank.htm) DT (http://football.about.com/cs/positionalranking/a/nfldraftdtrank.htm) OLB (http://football.about.com/cs/positionalranking/a/nfldraftolbrank.htm) ILB (http://football.about.com/cs/positionalranking/a/nfldraftilbrank.htm) FS (http://football.about.com/cs/positionalranking/a/nfldraftsrank.htm)
The Bengals really need some help in the running game, but this is too early for any of the top running backs. Their next best bet would be to grab a pass rusher or an elite offensive tackle. Smith has been climbing draft boards lately and has the potential to develop into a franchise cornerstone at left tackle.
7. Oakland Raiders (http://football.about.com/od/teamneeds/a/teamneeds_OAK.htm) - Aaron Curry, OLB Wake Forest
Team Needs: WR (http://football.about.com/cs/positionalranking/a/nfldraftwrrank.htm) OT (http://football.about.com/cs/positionalranking/a/nfldraftotrank.htm) DE (http://football.about.com/cs/positionalranking/a/nfldraftderank.htm) DT (http://football.about.com/cs/positionalranking/a/nfldraftdtrank.htm) OLB (http://football.about.com/cs/positionalranking/a/nfldraftolbrank.htm) CB (http://football.about.com/cs/positionalranking/a/nfldraftcbrank.htm)
With Michael Crabtree and the top three offensive tackles off the board, the Raiders should simply look to the best player available. Outside linebacker is not a big need for the Raiders, but Curry is too good to pass on at this point. So if the Raiders can't trade down to get a big-time pass rusher at defensive end, or some help on the offensive line, they should consider taking Curry and moving him to the strong side.
8. Jacksonville Jaguars (http://football.about.com/od/teamneeds/a/teamneeds_JAC.htm) - Rey Maualuga (http://football.about.com/od/nflplayerprofiles/ig/Rey-Maualuga/), ILB USC
Team Needs: WR (http://football.about.com/cs/positionalranking/a/nfldraftwrrank.htm) DT (http://football.about.com/cs/positionalranking/a/nfldraftdtrank.htm) CB (http://football.about.com/cs/positionalranking/a/nfldraftcbrank.htm)
Mike Peterson and head coach Jack Del Rio don't exactly see eye to eye at all time, and Peterson turns 33 this year. Maualuga is a big, physical linebacker who plays with a bit of a nasty streak, and would fit in nicely on the inside of Jacksonville's defense.

9. Green Bay Packers (http://football.about.com/od/teamneeds/a/teamneeds_GRB.htm) - Everette Brown*, Florida State
Team Needs: DE (http://football.about.com/cs/positionalranking/a/nfldraftderank.htm) DT (http://football.about.com/cs/positionalranking/a/nfldraftdtrank.htm) OT (http://football.about.com/cs/positionalranking/a/nfldraftotrank.htm)
With their switch to a 3-4 defense in 2009, the Packers will be eyeing Aaron Maybin, who would be a perfect fit at rush linebacker for the team. But with him off the board they will look for other personnel to fit their new scheme. Brown is probably the next best option, but they could pick up the top nose tackle in this year's NFL Draft in B.J. Raji out of Boston College if they want to reach a little or trade down.
10. San Francisco 49ers (http://football.about.com/od/teamneeds/a/teamneeds_SF.htm) - Malcolm Jenkins (http://football.about.com/od/nflplayerprofiles/ig/Malcolm-Jenkins/), CB Ohio State
Team Needs: WR (http://football.about.com/cs/positionalranking/a/nfldraftwrrank.htm) OT (http://football.about.com/cs/positionalranking/a/nfldraftotrank.htm) DE (http://football.about.com/cs/positionalranking/a/nfldraftderank.htm) CB (http://football.about.com/cs/positionalranking/a/nfldraftcbrank.htm) OLB (http://football.about.com/cs/positionalranking/a/nfldraftolbrank.htm)
Mike Singletary is likely to try to build up the 49ers defense, and if the draft plays out as we predict, he'll be left with his choice of the top two cornerbacks on the board. Personnaly, I prefer Vontae Davis out of Illinois, but I believe Jenkins will go before him.
11. Buffalo Bills (http://football.about.com/od/teamneeds/a/teamneeds_BUF.htm) - Brian Orakpo (http://football.about.com/od/nflplayerprofiles/ig/Brian-Orakpo/), DE Texas
Team Needs: OT (http://football.about.com/cs/positionalranking/a/nfldraftotrank.htm) TE (http://football.about.com/cs/positionalranking/a/nfldraftterank.htm) FS (http://football.about.com/cs/positionalranking/a/nfldraftsrank.htm) DE (http://football.about.com/cs/positionalranking/a/nfldraftderank.htm)
The Bills were highly inconsistent on offense in 2008, but there's not really a player available on that side of the ball that fits them unless they want to reach for tight end Brandon Pettigrew out of Oklahoma State. Offensive line and pass rush are other areas that could use improvement, so they could turn to Orakpo here. Personally I think Orakpo is overrated and will be picked before he should be. He can be a spectacular player at times, but he also has stretches where he disappears.

[Mahdi]

That is exactly what the words "Not even close" mean! I will call Merriam Webster right now to inform them of the new definition! Thank you! How would you like them to credit you on the new definition?

In all seriousness, how about instead of just assuming what Im saying, take the extra 5 seconds and why don't you ask me what I think about drafting a DE in this draft. Instead of just assuming you think you know my opinion on the topic.
Not sure where yer going with the whole definition rant... someone asked if there was a Mario Williams in this draft you said not even close ... all I said in reply was it doesnt mean we shouldnt draft a DE...

On your second point, from you're other posts it seems clear that you are not in favor of drafting a DE. You have already told me they all have holes in their games and they all project as 3-4 players not 4-3.... its pretty obvious you dont want a DE unless yer just playing Devil's advocate this whole time...

[Mahdi]

Just so Im completely clear on what your argument is here. You dont care what anybody says about a player, because in your words you just take that stuff "with a grain of salt"...explain to me then what the purpose of you discussing prospects is, if you don't care what anybody else thinks about them?
Its not that I dont care what anyone thinks about prospects... its that there are so many opinions out there (many of them conflicting) that you cant take them too seriously, I read them for fun...

Just because someone writes in their player evaluation page that Orakpo is weak against the run it doesnt make it true... most evaluations have a pro and con section and the obvious con to write for a pass rushing DE is that he cant hold his own in the run game... as a GM of a team who cant get to the QB I would be all over a DE that could rush the passer...

[DraftBoy]

Not sure where yer going with the whole definition rant... someone asked if there was a Mario Williams in this draft you said not even close ... all I said in reply was it doesnt mean we shouldnt draft a DE...

On your second point, from you're other posts it seems clear that you are not in favor of drafting a DE. You have already told me they all have holes in their games and they all project as 3-4 players not 4-3.... its pretty obvious you dont want a DE unless yer just playing Devil's advocate this whole time...

Yes I know what you said but the question was simply if there was a Mario Williams in this draft, and the answer is no there is not. Nobody is even close to him in fact, that's not to say that I dont want to draft one, that was an assumption on your part. Hence the definition thing, don't assume you know what I want because I dont think a player doesnt compare to another or because they have holes.

What I do is that I bring up different names, and provide the holes that most of these players have. If all we all did was love on our favorite guys this board would be boring. Also I dont read that Orakpo is weak against the run because he is overly aggressive. Ive seen him in tape do it time and time again, my opinion is not based on others, its based on the tape on these guys.

I have a list of DE's I like a lot that Id take but nobody is perfect there are about 15 guys that Id take at 11, not all are DE's or OLB's. Just because we have a need for a DE does not mean we HAVE to take one at 11, if the value is not there then we should pass. I also do not want a pass rush only DE, if its not a complete package then Id pass. We dont need more Chris Kelsay's we need a Phil Hansen type DE. Who can rush the passer and be stout against the run. We had that a little bit in Aaron Schobel till he got hurt and even in our hey day Bruce was a good run stopper too. People are way too caught up on guys who can get up the field and not on guys who can play DE on all three downs.

[Mahdi]

Yes I know what you said but the question was simply if there was a Mario Williams in this draft, and the answer is no there is not. Nobody is even close to him in fact, that's not to say that I dont want to draft one, that was an assumption on your part. Hence the definition thing, don't assume you know what I want because I dont think a player doesnt compare to another or because they have holes.

What I do is that I bring up different names, and provide the holes that most of these players have. If all we all did was love on our favorite guys this board would be boring. Also I dont read that Orakpo is weak against the run because he is overly aggressive. Ive seen him in tape do it time and time again, my opinion is not based on others, its based on the tape on these guys.

I have a list of DE's I like a lot that Id take but nobody is perfect there are about 15 guys that Id take at 11, not all are DE's or OLB's. Just because we have a need for a DE does not mean we HAVE to take one at 11, if the value is not there then we should pass. I also do not want a pass rush only DE, if its not a complete package then Id pass. We dont need more Chris Kelsay's we need a Phil Hansen type DE. Who can rush the passer and be stout against the run. We had that a little bit in Aaron Schobel till he got hurt and even in our hey day Bruce was a good run stopper too. People are way too caught up on guys who can get up the field and not on guys who can play DE on all three downs.
Well thats where we differ then...

A) Chris Kelsay is not a pass rusher. And Orakpo is not in the mold of Chris Kelsay...not even close. Kelsay is a below average pass rusher and an average run defender.

B) I dont think we need a Phil Hansen type DE at all... the problem with our defense is that we dont have a guy that can get to the QB quickly. Phil Hansen played with a pass rusher like that (Bruce) so he was complementary. If we get a Phil Hansen type guy then you are asking either him or Schobel to be the primary pass rusher....do you really think that will get us off the field on 3rd down?

Not sure why you are so worried about the run defense.. the Bills were solid against the run this year for the most part but you cant sustain that when you continually allow passing downs to be completed and drives stretch out for 14 and 15 plays.

If we can get a solid SLB (hopefully Crowell) and a healthy Schobel back we will be solid against the run no matter who we have lined up at the other DE spot. Cover 2 is a gap responsibility defense not a man domination defense we dont need to have a Paul Spicer type DE to be successful defending the run.

[DraftBoy]

Well thats where we differ then...

A) Chris Kelsay is not a pass rusher. And Orakpo is not in the mold of Chris Kelsay...not even close. Kelsay is a below average pass rusher and an average run defender.

B) I dont think we need a Phil Hansen type DE at all... the problem with our defense is that we dont have a guy that can get to the QB quickly. Phil Hansen played with a pass rusher like that (Bruce) so he was complementary. If we get a Phil Hansen type guy then you are asking either him or Schobel to be the primary pass rusher....do you really think that will get us off the field on 3rd down?

Not sure why you are so worried about the run defense.. the Bills were solid against the run this year for the most part but you cant sustain that when you continually allow passing downs to be completed and drives stretch out for 14 and 15 plays.

If we can get a solid SLB (hopefully Crowell) and a healthy Schobel back we will be solid against the run no matter who we have lined up at the other DE spot. Cover 2 is a gap responsibility defense not a man domination defense we dont need to have a Paul Spicer type DE to be successful defending the run.

A) The numbers disagree with you on Kelsay.

B) I don believe in taking one dimensional players with 1st or 2nd Round picks, just not my philosophy.