Vanek and the All-Star game

[jamze132]

So I didn't get a chance to watch it, did Vanek see the ice? Wasn't there like 28 total points from both sides and he couldn't muster 1?

[BlackMetalNinja]

I'd have to look it up, but I'd almost be willing to bet that he had the least ice time of anybody.

[jamze132]

I'd have to look it up, but I'd almost be willing to bet that he had the least ice time of anybody.
Why would he have the least? Isn't he in the top 5 in scoring?

[BlackMetalNinja]

Why would he have the least? Isn't he in the top 5 in scoring?Don't ask me, I'm not a coach, just telling you what I saw. I tried to check the stats, but neither NHL or ESPN has anything beyond the goals and penalty. He was on a line with Ilya Kovalchuck and Jeff Carter. They were the 4th of the 4 lines, and the shifts were very extended for this game, 2-3 minutes on average. He had maybe 6-7 shifts for the game, and in OT, when it was 4 on 4, he didn't even get on the ice.

[Philagape]

Vanek's TOI was 16:59; only Carter and Kovalchuk had more among forwards (and they didn't have any points either)

http://gamecenter.nhl.com/nhlgc/console.jsp?id=2008040057

[jamze132]

Don't ask me, I'm not a coach, just telling you what I saw. I tried to check the stats, but neither NHL or ESPN has anything beyond the goals and penalty. He was on a line with Ilya Kovalchuck and Jeff Carter. They were the 4th of the 4 lines, and the shifts were very extended for this game, 2-3 minutes on average. He had maybe 6-7 shifts for the game, and in OT, when it was 4 on 4, he didn't even get on the ice.
I was simply responding to what you initially said; that you would be willing to bet that he had the least amount of ice time as anyone. That is why I asked you why. I wanted your opinion. :band:

[BlackMetalNinja]

Vanek's TOI was 16:59; only Carter and Kovalchuk had more among forwards (and they didn't have any points either)

http://gamecenter.nhl.com/nhlgc/console.jsp?id=2008040057Wow, I'm surprised, he really didn't seem to be out there that much at all.

[Tiburon1724]

He was a -3 with 1 SOG, go Vanek!

[TheGhostofJimKelly]

Vanek scoring wasn't in the script.

[OpIv37]

He was a -3 with 1 SOG, go Vanek!

and here we get to the heart of the problem with the Sabres. Vanek not doing well in the all star game is the symptom, not the problem.

Statistically, Vanek is our best player. He scores a ton of goals, but he's streaky and tends to excel against inferior competition (either by the Sabres beating up on the crappier teams in the league, or by Lindy putting him out on the PP or against other teams' 3rd and 4th lines). When he has to face top-level competition, it's pretty clear that he's not up to par. It's a microcosm for the entire Sabres team.

[chernobylwraiths]

and here we get to the heart of the problem with the Sabres. Vanek not doing well in the all star game is the symptom, not the problem.

Statistically, Vanek is our best player. He scores a ton of goals, but he's streaky and tends to excel against inferior competition (either by the Sabres beating up on the crappier teams in the league, or by Lindy putting him out on the PP or against other teams' 3rd and 4th lines). When he has to face top-level competition, it's pretty clear that he's not up to par. It's a microcosm for the entire Sabres team.

Many of Vanek's goals come from standing in front of the net and tipping pucks as well as working around the crease. There is nothing like that in the all star game.

It is a terrible analogy as the all star game doesn't even compare to real hockey.

[OpIv37]

Many of Vanek's goals come from standing in front of the net and tipping pucks as well as working around the crease. There is nothing like that in the all star game.

It is a terrible analogy as the all star game doesn't even compare to real hockey.

funny how all the guys who score in real hockey also score in the all-star game... except Vanek.

And did you even read my post- it's the SYMPTOM, not the PROBLEM. On paper, Vanek looks like top-tier competition, but when he plays top-tier competition, he clearly doesn't live up. This is just one more example.

[hydro]

3 G - Montreal in 3 games
2 G - Rangers in 2 games
3 G - Boston in 5 games
2 G - NJ in 3 games
3 G - Wash in 3 games

13/28 goals against the top 10 in the league (THE WHOLE LEAGUE)

He does just terrible against good competition...

[OpIv37]

3 G - Montreal in 3 games
2 G - Rangers in 2 games
3 G - Boston in 5 games
2 G - NJ in 3 games
3 G - Wash in 3 games

13/28 goals against the top 10 in the league (THE WHOLE LEAGUE)

He does just terrible against good competition...

2 of those goals against Washington came at hope without Ovechkin. Washington also excels at home, so the Caps on the road without Ovechkin are HARDLY a top 10 team. So that doesn't count. 11/28 goals against top 10 teams- that means 17/28 came against competition that was average at best. Good try, though.

[hydro]

2 G - CHI in 1 game
3 G - NJ in 3 games
1 G - MON in 3 games
1 G - BOS in 2 games
3 G - NYR in 3 games

10/30 against the top 10 teams in the LEAGUE. Wow, I guess this guy isn't a big game player either...

Any guesses?

[OpIv37]

2 G - CHI in 1 game
3 G - NJ in 3 games
1 G - MON in 3 games
1 G - BOS in 2 games
3 G - NYR in 3 games

10/30 against the top 10 teams in the LEAGUE. Wow, I guess this guy isn't a big game player either...

Any guesses?

Don't know/don't care.

As long as Vanek is the best this team has to offer, the best they're going to do is barely cling to a low playoff seed. It happened last year and it's happening again this year. Don't get me wrong- Vanek is a talented player and an asset to this team, but he doesn't have the hockey or leadership skills to make this team win as it's ONLY asset.

[hydro]

Don't know/don't care.

As long as Vanek is the best this team has to offer, the best they're going to do is barely cling to a low playoff seed. It happened last year and it's happening again this year. Don't get me wrong- Vanek is a talented player and an asset to this team, but he doesn't have the hockey or leadership skills to make this team win as it's ONLY asset.

Can't say I disagree with any of the above. So far he really hasn't shown leadership abilities but he is our most talented scorer but saying that he doesn't show up in big games isn't true. At least it isn't blatantly obvious this season.

[chernobylwraiths]

2 of those goals against Washington came at hope without Ovechkin. Washington also excels at home, so the Caps on the road without Ovechkin are HARDLY a top 10 team. So that doesn't count. 11/28 goals against top 10 teams- that means 17/28 came against competition that was average at best. Good try, though.

Wys?

[OpIv37]

Wys?

ha.

Seriously, though, the Sabres have played the Caps 3 times this year- twice with Ovechkin and once without him. The results were COMPLETELY different.

And it sucks too. When the Sabres used to beat up on the Caps (ie, the last 30 years prior to last month), I could never rip on the Caps fans because THERE WEREN'T ANY. But now that the Caps are winning, they sure seem to have a lot of fans who aren't shy about mouthing off to a Sabres fan.

[BlackMetalNinja]

ha.

Seriously, though, the Sabres have played the Caps 3 times this year- twice with Ovechkin and once without him. The results were COMPLETELY different.

And it sucks too. When the Sabres used to beat up on the Caps (ie, the last 30 years prior to last month), I could never rip on the Caps fans because THERE WEREN'T ANY. But now that the Caps are winning, they sure seem to have a lot of fans who aren't shy about mouthing off to a Sabres fan.Sweet, maybe we can find somebody to get in a fight with on 4/3 if you go to the game :up:

[Nighthawk]

It was an All-Star game and it was brutal...as usual. I'm not really worried about Vanek's performance, but there is no arguing that he was terrible.

[SkateZilla]

2 of those goals against Washington came at hope without Ovechkin. Washington also excels at home, so the Caps on the road without Ovechkin are HARDLY a top 10 team. So that doesn't count. 11/28 goals against top 10 teams- that means 17/28 came against competition that was average at best. Good try, though.


So Your Saying Washington With Ovechkin plays Better Defense?, ROFLMAO, One Player Wont Change the Team, Points Are Points, it doesnt matter who your playing as long as your producing.

HIND SIGHT IS 20/20.

[jamze132]

It's a shame we are having to pay Vanke what he's making. There are a lot fo 40 goal scorers making a lot less than him. Thanks Edmonton.

[chernobylwraiths]

It's a shame we are having to pay Vanke what he's making. There are a lot fo 40 goal scorers making a lot less than him. Thanks Edmonton.

Just wait until THEIR contract is up.

[Dozerdog]

2 of those goals against Washington came at hope without Ovechkin. Washington also excels at home, so the Caps on the road without Ovechkin are HARDLY a top 10 team. So that doesn't count. 11/28 goals against top 10 teams- that means 17/28 came against competition that was average at best. Good try, though.

Very Wysonian


"Take out those two long touchdown runs and he only averaged 2.9 yards a carry!"

[OpIv37]

Very Wysonian


"Take out those two long touchdown runs and he only averaged 2.9 yards a carry!"

he was talking about Vanek's record against top 10 teams. Do you really think Washington on the road without Ovechkin is a top 10 team? It's very Rovian to count that as a top 10 team.

[OpIv37]

So Your Saying Washington With Ovechkin plays Better Defense?, ROFLMAO, One Player Wont Change the Team, Points Are Points, it doesnt matter who your playing as long as your producing.

HIND SIGHT IS 20/20.

I'm saying Washington is a better team overall with Ovechkin. When he plays, they have plenty of scoring. When he doesn't play, they need everyone, including the D, to try to step up the game. Do you really think Washington's D presses as much when Ovechkin is playing as they do when he's not playing? Your comment is very short-sighted.

And btw, Vanek doesn't produce consistently. He's streaky and he's always been streaky.

And btw again, it DOES matter who you are playing. Several times this season, the Sabres have blown 3rd period leads against Eastern Conf opponents and given up at least 1 point late in the game. Those points will come back to haunt them in terms of playoff positioning (whereas an OT win against a WC opponent is just as good as a regulation win because that bonus point is out of the conference). So it absolutely does matter who the points come against.

Again, your comment is just a gross oversimplification.

[chernobylwraiths]

So Your Saying Washington With Ovechkin plays Better Defense?, ROFLMAO, One Player Wont Change the Team, Points Are Points, it doesnt matter who your playing as long as your producing.

HIND SIGHT IS 20/20.

you're

(eat that Lecter!)

[SkateZilla]

Vanek is streaky, yes, every player is streaky, players are always streaky, but its a team sport and requires a team effort so when Vanek's scoring streak becomes a drought its up to the rest of the team to pick up some of the slack, 1 player cant always do the work, there's 17 more players on the bench that have the common functional ability of shooting the puck and playing basic hockey.

[OpIv37]

Vanek is streaky, yes, every player is streaky, players are always streaky, but its a team sport and requires a team effort so when Vanek's scoring streak becomes a drought its up to the rest of the team to pick up some of the slack, 1 player cant always do the work, there's 17 more players on the bench that have the common functional ability of shooting the puck and playing basic hockey.

That's basically what I'm saying. Vanek isn't Gretsky or even Ovechkin or Crosby. He's not even equal to those guys and he can't get the job done by himself. As long as he's the best this team has to offer, then don't expect anything better than a low playoff seed and an early exit. And I don't necessarily mean that as a knock on Vanek himself- the guy clearly has some skills. But the organization is trying to build around him like he's Ovechkin or Crosby and he's just not. They need to give him some help.