I got some questions for you......Do they have the leagues best offense on paper? [Archive] - BillsZone.com

yordad

03-09-2009, 06:59 PM

DrGraves

03-09-2009, 07:04 PM

I just hope Trent gets out of his look to the check down first mode and start getting the ball down field.

TigerJ

03-09-2009, 07:16 PM

The Bills have a pretty good set of skill players, assuming Trent continues maturing and the Bills find a good TE in the draft. They still have to reassemble an offensive line, adding a left guard and the rebuilding the chemistry of the lline with two new starters. If they do all that, they may have a top ten offense or better, but I'll wait for a while before making that a hard and fast declaration.

SquishDaFish

03-09-2009, 07:17 PM

If Trent can be a good QB then it will be a top 10 O easy

justasportsfan

03-09-2009, 07:29 PM

wr corps, looks like one of the top on PAPER.

Offense?Nope since the coaches,qb and OL are part of an O.

OpIv37

03-09-2009, 07:52 PM

WR and RB positions are pretty much as good as we can hope for.

The QB is unproven.

There is a question mark at C.

The TE's suck.

There is a gaping hole at LG.

This offense is FAR from the best in the league.

ServoBillieves

03-09-2009, 07:59 PM

Running Backs = A+. Both could start on any team.
Wide Receivers = A-. Superstar in Lee, Future HoF'er in TO, a great slot receiver in Josh, Roscoe, and two promising second rounders.
Tight End = D. Like Schouman/Fine, but none are better than the 2nd part of a two TE set.
Fullback = B- as a blocker, F as a receiver
OTackles = If Jason could stop commiting penalties, A, but B- for now.
OGuards = B- for Butler, obviously F for the LG position
Center = C. Unproven, so can't give him a bad or good grade.
Then there comes QB...

Trent = C+. The first four games of last season, easily a B. After the concussion, he seemed unsure and edgy. He's young, I don't know how he'll handle the T.O. pressure, it's too much to grade.

From a WR/RB stance? Easily top 5 in the NFL. But when you see who's throwing to them and who's blocking for them... it get's edgy. I'll go top 15.

SabreEleven

03-09-2009, 07:59 PM

Trent can't be a top 10 QB when he is laying on his back all game.

DraftBoy

03-09-2009, 08:01 PM

I say top 20 as of now, they got a lot of proving to do still.

yordad

03-09-2009, 09:47 PM

Guys, you can't wait til they prove it, I'm talking "on paper" not "on the field (yet)".

I'm not asking for a prediction.

OpIv37

03-09-2009, 10:05 PM

Guys, you can't wait til they prove it, I'm talking "on paper" not "on the field (yet)".

I'm not asking for a prediction.

They're not gonna prove anything without a LG and some OL depth, and a TE and maybe an RB (if Lynch is suspended for 4 games).

Lexwhat

03-09-2009, 11:01 PM

On paper, our WRs and RBs are great, but our O-Line is very average. Our Tight ends and Fullbacks are among the worst in the league. Trent Edwards is currently a big question mark, but I think he will progress and soon become a great player.

Peters and Walker are good tackles, but the interior O-Line is below average. We don't even have a starting LG! Geoff Hangartner (although I like him) couldn't even start at Center or Guard for the Carolina Panthers, so we can pretty much say that there were 3 interior lineman better than him -- all on the same team.

And contrary to what most people here believe, Brad Butler really wouldn't be starting for most other teams. He's a decent player, but no more. Are people forgetting how poor our run-blocking was last year???

And speaking of paper, we have Turk Schonert as our offensive coordinator. Nothing exciting about that.

Primarily because of our own O-Line issues and Schonert, I would say that our Offense is worse overall than these 9 teams (on paper): Colts, Titans, Broncos, Chargers, Cardinals, Eagles, Giants, Saints, Panthers. Maybe worse than the Falcons, Steelers, and Packers as well.

Lexwhat

03-09-2009, 11:10 PM

Do the Bills have the best, or one of the best, pair of RBs in the league?

Do the Bills have the best combination of the 2 in the entire league?

Best 1-2 punch at RB? I think we are top 10 in that category, but a lot of teams nowadays have great 1-2 (or 1-2-3) combinations:

Giants, Cowboys, Panthers, Saints, Falcons, Vikings, Titans, Raiders, Chargers.

I would say the Panthers have the best 1-2 punch with Williams and Stewart, but it's certainly debatable.

ServoBillieves

03-09-2009, 11:31 PM

They're not gonna prove anything without a LG and some OL depth, and a TE and maybe an RB (if Lynch is suspended for 4 games).

I have to disagree on one aspect here Op, and that's the depth.

You're dead on with no LG. I figured if we were going to drop Dock so quickly we had something in the works, but that apparently isn't happening. TE is a no brainer, Fine and Schouman are hybrid blocker/minor receivers at best. RB... well Freddy has shown us all something but when he's tired I don't trust the X man controlling the ball just yet, maybe that will change in OTA's and Training Camp.

But depth-wise, I think we're pretty OK. Although Duke has failed us many a time as a starter, I think as backup or fill in he's held his own. I'll leave it as a fully rested Duke can fill a hole when needed. Jason Whittle provides the veteran depth we need that can also fill in in a spot, and Kirk Chambers did very well last year when asked to fill and even start a couple of times. Now, if by depth you meant if we lose someone to the season, then you are absolutely right (except for OT), because Bell and Gaddis as the other backups just won't cut it.

And to go to Lex's latest posts, I truly do believe we have one of at least the top 5. The Chargers Sproles I believe is more of a fantastic hybrid, eluding to special teams. Panthers undoubtably have the best, but the Saints and Boys I would take out of it. I honestly, and from a football fans view, not a Bills fans view, would put Fred and Marshawn over the Saints/Vikings/Titans/Giants/Chargers, and Falcons. I DO think that the Vikings (obviously) have the best runner in the game right now, but as a tandem, I think Chester's lost a step. Also, I love the Burner Turner/Norwood tandem down in ATL, but Jerious just seems to be a highlight guy. I saw him get stuffed an awful lot last year where Freddy would've gotten a couple more yards out of it.

LtFinFan66

03-09-2009, 11:38 PM

ServoBillieves

03-09-2009, 11:44 PM

With all due respect, I will have to completely disagree that Jackson could start on ANY team. That is ludicrous

That may have pushed it a bit, I agree FinFan, but he could at least split decent time on any time, and POSSIBLY start one some teams (Lions, Bears, Broncos*)

*Side Note: The past few years, you could put a parapalegic midget behind that line and get a thousand yard rusher.

Lexwhat

03-09-2009, 11:52 PM

But depth-wise, I think we're pretty OK. Although Duke has failed us many a time as a starter, I think as backup or fill in he's held his own. I'll leave it as a fully rested Duke can fill a hole when needed. Jason Whittle provides the veteran depth we need that can also fill in in a spot, and Kirk Chambers did very well last year when asked to fill and even start a couple of times. Now, if by depth you meant if we lose someone to the season, then you are absolutely right (except for OT), because Bell and Gaddis as the other backups just won't cut it.

Jason Whittle and Duke Preston are both free agents. We have not attempted to re-sign them, as far as I know.

And to go to Lex's latest posts, I truly do believe we have one of at least the top 5. The Chargers Sproles I believe is more of a fantastic hybrid, eluding to special teams. Panthers undoubtably have the best, but the Saints and Boys I would take out of it. I honestly, and from a football fans view, not a Bills fans view, would put Fred and Marshawn over the Saints/Vikings/Titans/Giants/Chargers, and Falcons. I DO think that the Vikings (obviously) have the best runner in the game right now, but as a tandem, I think Chester's lost a step. Also, I love the Burner Turner/Norwood tandem down in ATL, but Jerious just seems to be a highlight guy. I saw him get stuffed an awful lot last year where Freddy would've gotten a couple more yards out of it.

Thanks for the reply...

It's hard to say about the Cowboys. Felix Jones was mind-boggling last year, but got injured early in the season. I think he's going to be a BIG-TIME playmaker.

As for the Saints, did you see Pierre Thomas last year? The guy is going to be very good, IMO. The Saints released McAllister, and I think Thomas's emergence is a big reason why. I lost a couple bets because of Pierre Thomas last year too!

ServoBillieves

03-10-2009, 12:20 AM

Jason Whittle and Duke Preston are both free agents. We have not attempted to re-sign them, as far as I know.

Thanks for the reply...

It's hard to say about the Cowboys. Felix Jones was mind-boggling last year, but got injured early in the season. I think he's going to be a BIG-TIME playmaker.

As for the Saints, did you see Pierre Thomas last year? The guy is going to be very good, IMO. The Saints released McAllister, and I think Thomas's emergence is a big reason why. I lost a couple bets because of Pierre Thomas last year too!

Blah, caught me off guard, thought we resigned both. Good call.

Jones could be a phenom in the years to come. Him and Barber are a very, very scary group. Pierre Thomas opened a lot of eyes, but I thought the McAllister/Bush tandem as the one you were speaking of. If, and again, we're still early in Free Agency, the Thomas/Bush group can hold up and produce, they will most certainly run rampant over some weak NFC D-Lines.

topher180

03-10-2009, 12:47 AM

I love, and I get, the excitement after the T.O. move.....but seriously?

Everyone already mentioned the position holes, Turk, etc, but the biggest issue to me is an unproven, injury prone QB. I know people have a slobbering love affair with him, and there's no reason why he can't be a productive NFL QB, but the fact is he hasn't proven anything yet.

Having 2 GREAT receivers is awesome, but unfortunately someone has to get the ball to them.

SeatownBillsFan21

03-10-2009, 12:52 AM

I just hope Trent gets out of his look to the check down first mode and start getting the ball down field.
Could not have said it any better its like he afraid to take chances at the same time he lives to play another down.

topher180

03-10-2009, 12:54 AM

Oh, and did I mention "on paper" translates to "don't matter" in Greek?

Mahdi

03-10-2009, 07:18 AM

Trent can't be a top 10 QB when he is laying on his back all game.
Huh? Trent sat in the pocket all day not knowing where to throw the ball half the time last season and ended up taking coverage sacks. In fact a lot of the sack totals against us last year were coverage sacks, especially when JP was in the game.

Actually I shouldn't call them coverage sacks... they are Question mark sacks (derived from Rich Gannon's use of the telestrator with a ? on JPs head) and Trent as well as JP were guilty of many of those.

Jan Reimers

03-10-2009, 07:35 AM

Trent is unproven, we have big holes on the O-line, we lack a pass catching TE, TO is 35 and a potential team-wrecker, and Marshawn may be gone for as many as 4 games. No way we crack the top twenty.

OR

Trent should be coming into his own in his 3rd year, we have a better Center, two great WRs, two great RBs, and the upcoming draft to grab a quality LG and TE. Top ten at least, baby!

Who knows?

justasportsfan

03-10-2009, 07:37 AM

Huh? Trent sat in the pocket all day not knowing where to throw the ball half the time last season and ended up taking coverage sacks. In fact a lot of the sack totals against us last year were coverage sacks, especially when JP was in the game.

Actually I shouldn't call them coverage sacks... they are Question mark sacks (derived from Rich Gannon's use of the telestrator with a ? on JPs head) and Trent as well as JP were guilty of many of those.
Trent was getting sacked even when he was throwing sideways. He was getting sacked trying to dink and dunk.

Mahdi

03-10-2009, 08:12 AM

Trent was getting sacked even when he was throwing sideways. He was getting sacked trying to dink and dunk.
No he wasn't. Trent rarely was sacked before 3 seconds elapsed.

don137

03-10-2009, 08:18 AM

The thing that TO brings to the table is that it makes it very risky to blitz Edwards. Teams in the past would put 8 in the box and blitz while double covering Evans. Now if they blitz or put 8 in the box will leave TO or Evans 1:1 in coverage and Edwards will take that any day of the week. A quick slant to TO on a blitz will put a end to that quickly.
The key is Edwards to catch the blitz pick ups and Hangartner needs to make sure they call the correct blocking scheme when they break the huddle and line up.

I think NE has the best offense.

justasportsfan

03-10-2009, 08:18 AM

No he wasn't. Trent rarely was sacked before 3 seconds elapsed.
watch the cleveland game. He was sacked and harrassed trying to throw sideways to Lynch. He looked like Rob Johnson that day.

It's been said here and shown that our wr's have been open and Trent just didn't have the confidence to throw deep. Not all the sacks were coverage sacks. A lot of them were lack of confidence sacks on Trents part.

ddaryl

03-10-2009, 08:18 AM

until we know what we have in regards to the OL we haven't improved enough to even consider ourselves top 10 let alone best in the NFL

We have no LG, and a question mark at C, OUr #1 RB is looking down the barrel of a 4 game suspension, and can T.O. really be as effective as we believ ehe can be ???

at this point were' top 20, but there are lots of questions and lots variables to look at and figure out before we can really know how our O will be this year.

ddaryl

03-10-2009, 08:20 AM

Trent was getting sacked even when he was throwing sideways. He was getting sacked trying to dink and dunk.

you need to go back and re-watch the 2008 season. Trent was not sacked that much at all. Our WR's just were not geting open, or Trent just wasn't seeing them.. or a combination of both...

A few times Trent was sacked could be attributed to a complete OL breakdown.. hence the concussion

justasportsfan

03-10-2009, 08:30 AM

you need to go back and re-watch the 2008 season. Trent was not sacked that much at all. Our WR's just were not geting open, or Trent just wasn't seeing them.. or a combination of both...

A few times Trent was sacked could be attributed to a complete OL breakdown.. hence the concussion
he was sacked 23 times sharing time with JP. His quick release also hides the pressure.

Ask Lee. He's been open. Trent just loves to go to Reed instead.

you can blame the concussion on the OL or Trent. It was a blitz that he read perfectly and decided to take the hit.

Mr. Pink

03-10-2009, 08:54 AM

Do the Bills have one of the best group of receivers in the league? How about starters? How about 3 wide?

Do the Bills have the best, or one of the best, pair of RBs in the league?

Do the Bills have the best combination of the 2 in the entire league?

If they get a good RG, wouldn't they have the makings of what could be a stellar line?

Is our biggest draw back the QB? Coaching? What is it?

Do the Bills have the leagues best offense on paper?

Group of receivers, with TO, is top 5 in the league. Not the best but definitely top 5. AZ, NE are still obviously head and shoulders above us. An argument can be made that we're right behind those two though.

RBs, middle of the pack. We're on par with teams like the Jets with Jones and Washington.

Combination of the two? AZ has us beat just because of how strong their WR corps are. Probably top 5 again.

The line is an average NFL line, with many question marks. Not just the RG position. We have an unproven guy taking over at C. Will we see the Peters of 07 or the Peters of 08?

Biggest drawback on offense? Inconsistent QB play.

I still think we'll have games that we'll look like we have one of the most incompetent offenses in the league.

Mahdi

03-10-2009, 09:07 AM

watch the cleveland game. He was sacked and harrassed trying to throw sideways to Lynch. He looked like Rob Johnson that day.

It's been said here and shown that our wr's have been open and Trent just didn't have the confidence to throw deep. Not all the sacks were coverage sacks. A lot of them were lack of confidence sacks on Trents part.
The Cleveland game is actually a PERFECT example of how long Trent had in the pocket before being sacked. Their zone scheme with their 3-4 confused him so much that he didn't know where to go with the football. They were dropping guys back into coverage and daring him to throw and he couldn't.

Those 3 first half INTs had nothing to do with pressure. I have the game Tivo'd and I have seen it at least 2ice.

Mahdi

03-10-2009, 09:09 AM

you need to go back and re-watch the 2008 season. Trent was not sacked that much at all. Our WR's just were not geting open, or Trent just wasn't seeing them.. or a combination of both...

A few times Trent was sacked could be attributed to a complete OL breakdown.. hence the concussion
The concussion was not actually the fault of the OL. Trent took a calculated risk and he was right. He completed a 12 yrd first down throw to Hardy and took a licking for it from Wilson. The OL was not supposed to block Adrian Wilson on that play and there were no backs or TEs on the field to chip him.

justasportsfan

03-10-2009, 09:14 AM

The Cleveland game is actually a PERFECT example of how long Trent had in the pocket before being sacked. Their zone scheme with their 3-4 confused him so much that he didn't know where to go with the football. They were dropping guys back into coverage and daring him to throw and he couldn't.

Those 3 first half INTs had nothing to do with pressure. I have the game Tivo'd and I have seen it at least 2ice.
Did you see how Trent wasn't even taking chances downfield? Why do you think Trents game went down when reed got injured. It's not a matter of our wr's not getting open , it's always been a confidence issue when Trent loses his security blanket. Trent loves to get rid of the ball quick which hides our issues in pass blocking.

Mahdi

03-10-2009, 09:16 AM

Mahdi

03-10-2009, 09:21 AM

Did you see how Trent wasn't even taking chances downfield? Why do you think Trents game went down when reed got injured. It's not a matter of our wr's not getting open , it's always been a confidence issue when Trent loses his security blanket. Trent loves to get rid of the ball quick which hides our issues in pass blocking.
Ok well its irrelevant what the reason is behind Trent taking way too long to throw. Fact is, he was taking to long to get rid of the ball and he took a ton of sacks for it. That is not the fault of the OL.

I know for a fact that 2 of Joey Porter's sacks off of Jason Peter's side happened because Trent was holding on too long and Porter had enough time to get blocked by Peters initially and then eventually work back to Edwards, that's not Peters fault. A LT is only expected to hold his block on an athlete like Porter for 3 to 3.5 seconds tops.

justasportsfan

03-10-2009, 09:24 AM

Just as a side note, 24 of the 32 starting QBs in the NFL were sacked 20 or more times. Considering how many of those Trent took because he was sitting around waiting we should be near the best in the league.
Trent spilt time with JP. Trent dinks the ball. Of course he's gonna look less sacked with those 2 things considered. I'm not gonna deny that the pass blocking has been better last year than in recent years, but it's not good enough vs. elite teams.

Did you consider strength of schedule? Trent was hrdly sacked when we played weak teams early in the season.

justasportsfan

03-10-2009, 09:26 AM

Ok well its irrelevant what the reason is behind Trent taking way too long to throw. Fact is, he was taking to long to get rid of the ball and he took a ton of sacks for it. That is not the fault of the OL.

I know for a fact that 2 of Joey Porter's sacks off of Jason Peter's side happened because Trent was holding on too long and Porter had enough time to get blocked by Peters initially and then eventually work back to Edwards, that's not Peters fault. A LT is only expected to hold his block on an athlete like Porter for 3 to 3.5 seconds tops.
If the OL wasn't at fault then why did we get rid of Dockery, Preston, Fowler and Whittle?

I'm saying it's a mixture of both qb and OL.

Mahdi

03-10-2009, 09:50 AM

If the OL wasn't at fault then why did we get rid of Dockery, Preston, Fowler and Whittle?

I'm saying it's a mixture of both qb and OL.
Because Dockery was brought in to maul guys and open holes in the run game ala Hutchinson and he didnt do that. Its not that Dockery was horrible, he just wasn't worth what he was getting.

justasportsfan

03-10-2009, 09:57 AM

Because Dockery was brought in to maul guys and open holes in the run game ala Hutchinson and he didnt do that. Its not that Dockery was horrible, he just wasn't worth what he was getting.
they said he failed in every assessment they made of him. Why didn't you mention our centers? Our centers were the weakest link on this OL.

TacklingDummy

03-10-2009, 10:00 AM

Do the Bills have one of the best group of receivers in the league? How about starters? How about 3 wide?

It will all depend on the play of the QB. If Trent drops a turd the offense will stink. If Trent produces the offense will shine.

Mahdi

03-10-2009, 10:08 AM

they said he failed in every assessment they made of him. Why didn't you mention our centers? Our centers were the weakest link on this OL.
Our centers didnt have trouble pass protecting (Fowler had a couple of wiffs) they were horrible at run blocking at the POA. Preston was fine in pass pro.

justasportsfan

03-10-2009, 10:09 AM

Our centers didnt have trouble pass protecting (Fowler had a couple of wiffs) they were horrible at run blocking at the POA. Preston was fine in pass pro.

lol. Our staff doesn't agree with you which is why they were both let go.

Mahdi

03-10-2009, 10:18 AM

lol. Our staff doesn't agree with you which is why they were both let go.
Like I said... they were both let go because they were weak at the POA. They couldn't handle the NTs in our division. Me and the coaches agree.

yordad

03-10-2009, 10:43 AM

Oh, and did I mention "on paper" translates to "don't matter" in Greek?
Did I mention "it's off-season", which translates to "all that matters right now is 'on paper'", in English, smart ass.

justasportsfan

03-10-2009, 10:51 AM

Like I said... they were both let go because they were weak at the POA. They couldn't handle the NTs in our division. .
well if thats the case then there was a problem at OL , no?

TacklingDummy

03-10-2009, 11:06 AM

well if thats the case then there was a problem at OL , no?

Overall pass blocking, no. Overall run blocking when Jackson was in there, no. Run blocking when Run to Contact Lynch was in there, yes.

Mahdi

03-10-2009, 11:11 AM

well if thats the case then there was a problem at OL , no?
I didnt disagree we had a problem on the OL. Pass blocking though was not the problem, it was run blocking and Dockery wasnt as advertised and not worth his contract, and Fowler and Preston were too weak to open holes against bigger NTs, although they were fine when it came to pass blocking.

In Buffalo you have to be able to run block because running the ball is critical late in the year and THAT is why we are making changes to the interior of the line.

Barb

03-10-2009, 11:24 AM

Best 1-2 punch at RB? I think we are top 10 in that category, but a lot of teams nowadays have great 1-2 (or 1-2-3) combinations:

Giants, Cowboys, Panthers, Saints, Falcons, Vikings, Titans, Raiders, Chargers.

I would say the Panthers have the best 1-2 punch with Williams and Stewart, but it's certainly debatable.

no respect for miami´s backfield huh....brown, williams, cobbs

justasportsfan

03-10-2009, 01:02 PM

Overall pass blocking, no. Overall run blocking when Jackson was in there, no. Run blocking when Run to Contact Lynch was in there, yes.
It was a problem that was overshadowed by our horrible runblocking. Again, it wasn't as bad as the past years because we played weak teams. Even you would agree to that.

TigerJ

03-10-2009, 04:26 PM

The Bills have a pretty good set of skill players, assuming Trent continues maturing and the Bills find a good TE in the draft. They still have to reassemble an offensive line, adding a left guard and the rebuilding the chemistry of the line with two new starters. If they do all that, they may have a top ten offense or better, but I'll wait for a while before making that a hard and fast declaration.