LG, DE, OLB

[OpIv37]

Every day I come in here hoping to see some news about one of these positions, and every day there is nothing. Occasionally they'll bring in a 2nd rate and/or over-the-hill FA, but they don't sign them anyway (not that signing Jason Babin would help, but still....).

Signing TO is great, but it won't matter if we can't protect Trent or keep people from scoring. This team is still looking at a .500 or worse season if they can't plug these holes. The lack of progress on these obvious trouble spots is disturbing.

[venis2k1]

Its a long time till september

[OpIv37]

Its a long time till september

well options are running out quickly. Between Dockery, Fowler, Preston and Whittle, we've lost 3 interior OL and only signed one. Where are we going to find another starter and depth that's better than what we had at this point?

Once again, they'll be depending on 2nd tier FA's and rookies to fill gaping holes, and it won't work. It never has and it never will.

[Luisito23]

I still think that Waters trade is gonna happen, we'll draft a LB in the draft, and I think they're happy with Schobel.

[OpIv37]

I still think that Waters trade is gonna happen, we'll draft a LB in the draft, and I think they're happy with Schobel.

Well I don't think they should be happy with Schobel because he's having problems staying on the field, and hasn't been that effective when he is there. But I wouldn't mind keeping Schobel if we could get someone who can rush the passer opposite him and open things up a little. Kelsay and Denney are both back-ups.

[TacklingDummy]

The biggest thing that would benefit the Bills would be for Schobel to live up to his contract. Pressure on the QB would benefit everyone on defense.

[justasportsfan]

Every day I come in here hoping to see some news about one of these positions, and every day there is nothing. Occasionally they'll bring in a 2nd rate and/or over-the-hill FA, but they don't sign them anyway (not that signing Jason Babin would help, but still....).

Signing TO is great, but it won't matter if we can't protect Trent or keep people from scoring. This team is still looking at a .500 or worse season if they can't plug these holes. The lack of progress on these obvious trouble spots is disturbing.
SAme here. I think they are hoping another player will like TO will get cut at those positions. I hope they don't think that they can address those positions via the draft and expect rookies to come in and make huge impacts in their first year.

[DrGraves]

No we are drafting a DE. Please God tell me we are drafting a DE.

[TedMock]

No we are drafting a DE. Please God tell me we are drafting a DE.

We are. Just not in round 1 - unless, of course, we trade down.

[Lexwhat]

well options are running out quickly. Between Dockery, Fowler, Preston and Whittle, we've lost 3 interior OL and only signed one. Where are we going to find another starter and depth that's better than what we had at this point?

Once again, they'll be depending on 2nd tier FA's and rookies to fill gaping holes, and it won't work. It never has and it never will.

Fowler and Whittle are easy replaceable, and I'm actually glad we haven't re-signed them.

I'm curious as to why Preston hasen't been re-signed as depth. He's not that good, but certainly better than Fowler / Whittle, and adequate depth-wise.

This team better expect to find a starting LG / C in the draft, and some more depth in the later rounds. I wonder who's still out there. Maybe they are waiting for Simmons's asking price to go down, or are still working out a trade for Waters?

I really want Orakpo in the 1st round, but trading down (thus missing out on Orakpo) and picking up an extra 2nd could ultimately be the best decision.

[madness]

well options are running out quickly. Between Dockery, Fowler, Preston and Whittle, we've lost 3 interior OL and only signed one. Where are we going to find another starter and depth that's better than what we had at this point?

Once again, they'll be depending on 2nd tier FA's and rookies to fill gaping holes, and it won't work. It never has and it never will.

I don't see how a rookie could not easily replace Ellison.

I feel we go LB, DE, TE (in that order) in the draft. That means the Bills need to get moving to find some more OL before the draft. If a capable starting TE or LB could be made before (which I doubt), the draft would help us in getting some reserve OL. Either way, I think we have to find a starting G outside of the draft. There's too much at risk on offense to plug a rookie in there.

[jimbohastle51]

there is still 2 really good starting guards available in free agency, mike goff and kendall simmons (coming off injury and already visited), they could have either one easily, they obviously are working on something.

[Mitchell55]

Most likely June or Keiho will be here. There is no DE in FA, and there are 3 Guards/Centers we are targeting. Simmons, Bentley, and Waters.

[OpIv37]

Most likely June or Keiho will be here. There is no DE in FA, and there are 3 Guards/Centers we are targeting. Simmons, Bentley, and Waters.

June is well past his prime. Keiaho is better than Ellison, but not by much. Both of those guys would be a good start, but neither are the answer.

"Targeting" and "obtaining" are two different things. Get someone here NOW.

As far as DE, no new DE=no pass rush=DB's 10 yards off the LOS=same results as last year. It's probably our biggest need right now. You may be correct in that there is no one available who would help, but that doesn't change the fact that this team needs one and will struggle without an upgrade at that position.

[Dr. Lecter]

Every day I come in here hoping to see some news about one of these positions, and every day there is nothing. Occasionally they'll bring in a 2nd rate and/or over-the-hill FA, but they don't sign them anyway (not that signing Jason Babin would help, but still....).

Signing TO is great, but it won't matter if we can't protect Trent or keep people from scoring. This team is still looking at a .500 or worse season if they can't plug these holes. The lack of progress on these obvious trouble spots is disturbing.

As much as I think these are holes (and have said as much), signing Simmons and June or Keiaho (or Derrick Brooks) would help 2 of those 3.

As for DE, there was no real help in free agency. In a dream world, Orakpo falls to 11. More likely the Bills reach for Ayers or Johnson, trade up for one of the two late in the first or get lucky and get one of the two in the 2nd.

[Dr. Lecter]

June is well past his prime. Keiaho is better than Ellison, but not by much. Both of those guys would be a good start, but neither are the answer.

"Targeting" and "obtaining" are two different things. Get someone here NOW.

As far as DE, no new DE=no pass rush=DB's 10 yards off the LOS=same results as last year. It's probably our biggest need right now. You may be correct in that there is no one available who would help, but that doesn't change the fact that this team needs one and will struggle without an upgrade at that position.

June is only 30 and is not past his prime. He was out of position the last two years.

Put him on the weakside and he will be fine. Not an all-star, but will make the LB corp much better, and Mitchell will be better on the strongside too.

[LifetimeBillsFan]

well options are running out quickly. Between Dockery, Fowler, Preston and Whittle, we've lost 3 interior OL and only signed one. Where are we going to find another starter and depth that's better than what we had at this point?

Once again, they'll be depending on 2nd tier FA's and rookies to fill gaping holes, and it won't work. It never has and it never will.

I agree with you about O-line being their biggest priority right now and have said so in at least a half dozen posts this week.

As for what their options are to fill their needs, surprisingly there hasn't been much action in free agency at the O-line positions and there are still a number of very good options available, even if the Bills don't trade for Waters--which I believe would be their best option at LG.

If healthy, Kendall Simmons or LeCharles Bentley would be a definite upgrade over the play the Bills got from Dockery. The question is whether either one of them is healthy. The problem is that, even if healthy, Simmons or Bentley would still be a second option after Waters and I can't see any FO signing Simmons or Bentley if it believed that it still had a chance to get Waters.

Mike Goff and Pete Kendall are also still available. Even though both are a bit long in the tooth, both have still been playing on a level at least as good or better than what Dockery gave the Bills. Either one would be a good short-term answer at the position while the Bills develop a young interior lineman taken in the draft. But, the two of them also would have to qualify as a third option behind Waters and a healthy Simmons or Bentley and, again, a FO wouldn't want to settle for one of them if it felt it had a real chance to get either Waters or a healthy Simmons or Bentley.

This isn't a really great draft for OGs, there isn't really one with a clear-cut first round, early second round grade, but it is a fantastic and deep draft class at the center position, going six deep with at least half of those six also projected to be able to become starters at OG as well, and there should be good value at the OG position from the mid-second round on. A couple of the centers in this draft are considered to be possibly good enough to start at center or OG as rookies, but there is a very good chance that they may be gone before the Bills pick in Round 2 (and you don't use the 11th pick in the draft on a center!). Still, there is a good chance that the Bills could get an interior lineman out of this draft who is quite capable of being a solid back-up as a rookie and make a serious push for a starting job within a year. The quality is there if the Bills invest a second or third round pick on an interior offensive lineman for them to get a player who can develop into an above average or even better starter within a year (a couple of the centers are considered to be guys who could be All-Pros for years).

If the Bills are going to sign Peters to a contract extension, you can pretty much count on them drafting an interior offensive lineman early enough in the draft for them to get a player who will serve as their primary backup at center and perhaps one of the OG positions. IMHO that is pretty much a given.

They may draft another offensive lineman later in the draft, but, if they do, that will probably be a player who will be a developmental project and probably spend the season on the PS.

Given what T.Modrak said in his interview on BB.com and some of the other comments that have come out of OBD, I believe that D.Bell could very well be one of the back-up offensive linemen who is active on game days this season. While Bell is an OT and the Bills just re-signed K.Chambers who has been their primary back-up at OT the last couple of seasons, Chambers can also play OG. While you wouldn't want to go into the season with Chambers as your starting LG, he could serve as an adequate in-game or short-term back-up at the position. IMHO, if the Bills believe that Bell has developed sufficiently to be able to step in as a back-up at both OT positions this season, they may decide to go with Chambers, Bell and a top rookie interior line prospect as their three active back-ups on game days.

Now, that may make you scream, but it does make sense if the Bills are able to get a veteran LG capable of giving them better play than they got out of Dockery last season.

In that instance, the starters would be solid with Peters and Walker at the tackles, Hangartner at center, Butler at RG and Waters/Simmons/Bentley/Goff/Kendall at LG. Chambers would be the primary back-up going into the season at every position except center. Butler, who has worked at center in practices in the past, would be the primary back-up at center until the rookie is ready to take over that role (which he might be in TC). Bell would become the back-up OT if Chambers were called upon to step into the lineup at OG. The rookie would start the season concentrating on trying to take over the back-up spot at center and would take over that role from Butler as soon as he is able to do so. At the same time, he would also get work at OG and begin to prepare himself to take over from Chambers as the primary back-up at at least one of the OG positions.

Now, you may say that that is a lot to ask of Chambers, Bell and a rookie.

But, Chambers has proven that he can play. He has gotten a lot better since he came to the Bills and has shown that he can be a better than average back-up (I wouldn't want him as a long-term starter, but he did pretty well filling in as a short-term starter for Peters at LT last season).

And, when Bell was drafted the reports on him were that he is a very athletic guy who had the potential to develop into a NFL starter. The knock on him was that he was very inexperienced, starting to play football late and coming from a small school, and that he needed to add strength. Last preseason he flashed some of his ability, but also showed his inexperience and need to develop further. According to Modrak, Bell has been working very hard and the coaches say that he came a long way in his development during practices last season. Bell has the talent and athletic ability to be pretty good--you could see it last preseason--and, with the way that Chambers improved since coming to the Bills, it isn't really that hard to believe that Bell could have made similar similar strides. If he has, with his athletic ability, Bell just might be capable of giving the Bills as good or better play than they could get from any veteran back-up offensive lineman that they could afford to add after signing Peters and a quality LG (personally, I would rather see them put their money into getting the best starter at LG than spend less on the starter in order to also sign a veteran back-up in FA).

As for the rookie, I think that DraftBoy will back me up on this: a lot of scouts think the top two centers in this draft, Mack and Ungar, are as good or better than Mangold when he came out. And, they weren't even the first team All-Americans the last two years: Luigs and Shipley were, respectively. Some are comparing Caldwell, from Alabama, to LeCharles Bentley. And, then, there is Wood, from Louisville, who is an absolute mauler. They are all talented enough to be quality back-ups, if not start, as rookies (and develop quickly into solid starters or better within a year). And, those are just the centers. Luigs, Shipley, Caldwell, Wood and, perhaps, Ungar (if the Bills are lucky) are all likely to be still available when the Bills pick in Round 2. Luigs, Caldwell and Shipley should still be on the board when they pick in Round 3. And, those are just the centers. There are also a couple of OGs who also have the ability to be solid back-ups as rookies as well.

Yes, rookies are always a risk, but this draft class just happens to be very talented and very deep at two of the positions that the Bills need to address most: interior offensive linemen and tight end. With the quality that will be available, the Bills would be foolish not to take advantage of the opportunity to grab one of these high potential prospects and groom him to be a future starter. In the long-run and perhaps even in the short-run, they would get a lot more out of doing this than signing a veteran back-up who they know will have a limited upside.

If I am reading things right, this is how I think that the Bills are planning to contruct their offensive line for this coming season.

If this is, indeed, what they are doing, then it could take awhile for them to get the LG that they have acknowledged that they need to add. If they are going after Waters (or someone else of that caliber), they would have to acquire him through a trade and such a trade could take time to consummate (it might even take until Draft Day and be dependent on who is still left on the board in a certain round). If that is the case, if things were to fall through on Draft Day (in a worst case scenario), they might not even be able to resolve this issue until after the draft is over: assuming that they go as far as they can to get the best player that may be available (say Waters) first and hold off on pursuing their secondary options for as long as they have a chance to get that better player.

I know that you and a lot of others here believe that the people in the Bills FO are stupid and you don't trust them. But, I don't think that they are that stupid (hamstrung in some instances by their budget and not overly imaginative, perhaps, but not stupid) and they have already indicated that they are aware of the fact that they need to address their LG position (do you think that they have paid for Simmons and Bentley to come in to visit because they just wanted to crack jokes with them?). And, I think that they are planning to do so.

But, there may be good reasons why they haven't consummated a deal yet. There may be good, valid reasons why we haven't heard anything about how they are going to fill this need. And, there may be something that we don't know about that is causing them to not to have signed a veteran free agent to fill the position yet.

It is entirely possible that the best solution to the Bills problem at LG is not for them to run out and sign the first available veteran free agent on the market. It may be that they are trying to find a way to acquire a better player than those who are free agents. And, maybe, that is why they haven't gone out and signed anyone yet. There is a lot that goes on behind the scenes that we do not know about and that could very easily be the reason that we haven't seen the Bills add anyone to address this need yet.

Let's wait and see what happens. Unlike many other positions, there hasn't been a lot of activity in the free agent market for offensive guards. So, there are still a number of options available to the Bills at this point and a number of ways that they could go to address the position. But, given what they have said, at some point they will do something to address it. Considering the options that are available, pushing them to do something immediately may not be best thing to do right now.

[justasportsfan]

June is well past his prime. .
yeah, I want someone better than him.

[LifetimeBillsFan]

yeah, I want someone better than him.

Who?

It's easy to say that you want someone better than June, but, of the LBs available, who would you suggest?

BTW: June is 29 and probably has 3 good years left.

Keiaho is 26, I believe. He essentially replaced June when Indy let June go in free agency. He may still have some upside left.

June is a big hitter, but sometimes misses the tackle by going for the big hit. He is pretty good in coverage and can generate a few turnovers because he is a hard hitter.

Keiaho, on the other hand, doesn't go for big hit as much and is more of a sure tackler. But, he is not as good as June in coverage and hasn't really generated turnovers.

Derrick Brooks has been a great player and, at 35, may still have one good season left. But, Brooks has lost a step and no longer is able to play up to his previous level. Signing him would only be a temporary, short-term fix at the position.

Eric Barton is also on the wrong side of 30 and may only have a year or two left. He is more suited to playing inside LB in a 3-4 and most of his visits have been with teams that play the 3-4 defense. Signing him would mean moving Poz to OLB.

Crowell has a degenerative knee condition and may not make it through a whole season--the injury has scared off the few teams he has visited. Even if the Bills would consider re-signing him and he would be willing to return, his knee could cause him to miss significant time at any time. It would be a risky signing.

Who else is there in the free agent market that you would like the Bills to sign?

This isn't a particularly strong draft class at LB and, other than Curry, who will go in the top 5, there are questions about just how good the rest of the top LBs in this draft class will do in the NFL. Maualuga and Laurinitis both ran much slower than anyone thought they would at The Combine. Are Cushing and Mathews really going to be that good that the Bills should pass on taking a pass-rusher to draft them?

Brown, Maybin and Orakpo all are fast enough to play OLB in a 3-4, but their speciality is rushing the passer--in the Tampa 2 the OLBs don't rush the passer very often--and each is big enough to play DE in the Bills defensive system instead of OLB.

So, who do you have in mind? It's easy to complain and say that you want someone better than June, but, if you are going to do that, present a realistic solution or alternative.

As far as the draft goes, I'd like to see the Bills go DE (if one is still available at # 11), then, depending on who is still on the board, TE and C/OG in the second and third rounds. There is an OLB, a kid named Smith from Cincinnatti, who is projected to go in the fourth round who still may be available when the Bills pick in that round. If he is, I think he would be a good fit in the Bills defense and could beat out Ellison for the starting job at some point in the season. But, I don't want to see the Bills sacrifice a chance to address those other three positions with serious talent to take a LB early in the draft. I'd rather see them sign June or Keiaho and, if he is available, take Smith in the 4th round and see if they can develop him to the point where he can replace the older guy in a year or two.

You've got to look at the options available, take into consideration what may be needed to fill their other positions of need--which includes signing Peters to a contract extension--and then try to figure out how you would allocate the resources the Bills have available to address all of their needs. It isn't as easy as simply saying, "Well, I want someone better than that".

[Dr. Lecter]

I am not sure Brown is big enough to be a DE in this scheme. He was pretty small at the combine.