General Opinion? Bills profit/loss over the years

[trapezeus]

Out of curiousity, Do you guys think that Ralph has made more during the losing seasons or the winning seasons from a total profit standpoint. Take inflation out of this. So if you compared his 1970's seasons to the 90's, did he make more on the team then or during the good times?

Obviously, if you don't take inflation into account, he makes more each year regardless of performance. i'm just trying to figure out if he maybe defends the mediocrity from a profit/loss standpoint.

not bashing ralph, just understanding his rationale over the years. Thanks for your input. it's for a project i'm working on.

[DrGraves]

Dear Ralph,

You can't take your money with you when its all said and done. HOWEVER, God allows you to bring one superbowl ring with you... so feel free to go on a spending spree and get us a championship.

Love,
Your Guardian Angel

[Stewie]

Not sure how this comparison is meaningful without taking inflation into account, cause when you say total profit you're talking total $$$ which have different meaning over the years but anyway.... I think his profit margins would be a lagging indicator of good on-field product. In other words, sometimes we do just good enough to get people excited and that feeling lasts for another couple years, then it dies down, then we do something else to get people excited. Like bringing in vet saviors, coaching changes, etc..

[User Manuel]

Though I couldn't give you a specific number, the fact that Ralph carries almost no debt load leads me to believe that he is clearing a significant amount of money. I would estimate around $35 to $50 million a season gross before reinvested money.

Of course the debt load argument is what leads me to believe that any purchaser of the Bills faces a gigantic problem

[trapezeus]

Not sure how this comparison is meaningful without taking inflation into account, cause when you say total profit you're talking total $$$ which have different meaning over the years but anyway.... I think his profit margins would be a lagging indicator of good on-field product. In other words, sometimes we do just good enough to get people excited and that feeling lasts for another couple years, then it dies down, then we do something else to get people excited. Like bringing in vet saviors, coaching changes, etc..

I guess we are saying the same thing in different ways. I meant that once inflation was corrected for, do you think he did better. perhaps my phrasing could have been better.

I think his payrolls have rocketed upward since 1993 so that must put a good pinch on revenue. in the 70's, i sure they weren't getting contracts in the same percentage of the total revenue. but i'm not sure he was better or worse for being a losing franchise for most of the decades.

I think the TV deals help him now, regardless of the product. Thanks for thinking about this.

[Chewytie]

To be honest though if ralph was solely about the money i think he would have sold the stadium name rights by now.

[Jan Reimers]

I don't know how we've done in the past, but lately - because of carrying no debt and having a sweetheart stadium lease - the Bills have ranked among the top ten teams in the league in terms of net revenue.

Why would anyone want to move this team, assuming they could get Ralph's deal?

[Stewie]

I guess we are saying the same thing in different ways. I meant that once inflation was corrected for, do you think he did better. perhaps my phrasing could have been better.

I think his payrolls have rocketed upward since 1993 so that must put a good pinch on revenue. in the 70's, i sure they weren't getting contracts in the same percentage of the total revenue. but i'm not sure he was better or worse for being a losing franchise for most of the decades.

I think the TV deals help him now, regardless of the product. Thanks for thinking about this.

I believe players are getting the largest piece of the pie they've ever received, but the pie is huge right now. The biggest piece is the shared revenue, and unfortunately for the NFL, the next TV contract isn't going to be quite the bounce they were expecting 2 or 3 years ago.

[trapezeus]

I believe players are getting the largest piece of the pie they've ever received, but the pie is huge right now. The biggest piece is the shared revenue, and unfortunately for the NFL, the next TV contract isn't going to be quite the bounce they were expecting 2 or 3 years ago.

That's really interesting to me. I think you are right. ad revenue is falling overall. NBC is in trouble with its economic outlook. The other ones are safe for now, but may do some serious number crunching and come to the conclusion that the advertiser pool is shrinking and they might not buy as much as they want.

It puts the teams in the non-cash to cap situation in a precarious firesale position if they have to move the cap downward. Of course people will say, "NFL cap not moving up? impossible" but our recession has some legs to it. it certainly will last through 2009 and people are now wondering about 2010.

[SABURZFAN]

the Old Fart is making more money than he can spend. otherwise, his wrinkly ass would have sold or moved the team.

[venis2k1]

the Old Fart is making more money than he can spend.

When a quality interior lineman costs you 40+ million, it doesn't take long to spend it.

[Stewie]

That's really interesting to me. I think you are right. ad revenue is falling overall. NBC is in trouble with its economic outlook. The other ones are safe for now, but may do some serious number crunching and come to the conclusion that the advertiser pool is shrinking and they might not buy as much as they want.

It puts the teams in the non-cash to cap situation in a precarious firesale position if they have to move the cap downward. Of course people will say, "NFL cap not moving up? impossible" but our recession has some legs to it. it certainly will last through 2009 and people are now wondering about 2010.
I think in the NFL's perfect world, someone would have fleeced LA into building a 2 billion dollar blinged out megaplex around 2007 timeframe, moved minnesota buffalo or NO or some other smaller market team in for 2010. The next TV contract is due for the 2012 season I believe. Then they would have added the second largest TV market in the country. So you're talking about trading bottom five in brand revenue for top five. And TV revenue is way down from what they thought it would be, you're absolutely right.

The general economy only complicates the salary cap issue in terms of getting a new structure in place. I think the real problem is that without a cap there will be no floor. There'd be nothing to stop an owner from spending 30 million on payroll if he wanted to. He'd probably tick off the fans, but he may decide its in his best interest to go 0-16 and sell $10 tickets and $8 beers and not care.

IMO everyon'es going to have to give a little, the owners will have to take less money from the advertisers, and the players should concede a point or two in revenue sharing down to the high 50's. They should blow up the rookie wage scale and make it smaller, more evenly distributed. The owners in turn need to lower ticket prices. Then the TV people should lower your cable bill LOL that will happen I swear. It says so right here.

[Stewie]

btw I read in a couple places that most NFL teams operate under a cash to cap structure, so it's really not like we're at a disadvantage except against the washingtons, new yorks, and dallases of the league.

[trapezeus]

I think in the NFL's perfect world, someone would have fleeced LA into building a 2 billion dollar blinged out megaplex around 2007 timeframe, moved minnesota buffalo or NO or some other smaller market team in for 2010. The next TV contract is due for the 2012 season I believe. Then they would have added the second largest TV market in the country. So you're talking about trading bottom five in brand revenue for top five. And TV revenue is way down from what they thought it would be, you're absolutely right.

The general economy only complicates the salary cap issue in terms of getting a new structure in place. I think the real problem is that without a cap there will be no floor. There'd be nothing to stop an owner from spending 30 million on payroll if he wanted to. He'd probably piss off the fans, but he may decide its in his best interest to go 0-16 and sell $10 tickets and $8 beers and not care.

IMO everyon'es going to have to give a little, the owners will have to take less money from the advertisers, and the players should concede a point or two in profit sharing down to the high 50's. They should blow up the rookie wage scale and make it smaller, more evenly distributed. The owners in turn need to lower ticket prices. Then the TV people should lower your cable bill LOL that will happen I swear. It says so right here.

Stop, PaulB. You write anymore and i am writing you in as a congressman in november.

totally agree on everything. but most accurately, the rookie scale isn't helping anyone but the first round draft picks. And they aren't even playing well. Perhaps smaller contracts and shorter time periods so they can get out and to their big payday quicker. Their current structure is really inflationary and problematic.

No salary cap will cause a baseball problem. They need something. In the end i think the new owners need to realize they have the best league because everyone is competitive. if they want to try to outspend each other for talent to 5 teams and leave the other teams struggling, people will lose interest. The fact the games aren't locks really generates the high interest. Those top owners have to see themselves as an owner to the league and not to just their team.

The other problem football has that baseball doesn't is that the stats are always accurate. For the most part, baseball stats on a player are pretty accurate. You can pay a lot for a great player and get similar results from the guy barring injury the following year. Football, a guy can be red hot, signed to a huge contract and just do nothing. it relies on chemsitry and coaching. Buying big players doesn't automatically win championships, but skilled players evenly distributed makes the overall league mroe enjoyable.

[Bill Brasky]

considering:

1 - the team has no debt
2 - player salaries are mostly covered through rev sharing and controlled through a cap
3 - they spend UP to the cap and rarely hand out monster bonus'

they are probably making more than all but 10 teams in the league. they easily have to be in the upper half.

if they charged the avg rate on ticket prices, they'd probably be higher, but our tickets are DIRT CHEAP

[SABURZFAN]

When a quality interior lineman costs you 40+ million, it doesn't take long to spend it.



we're STILL waiting for quality interior linemen too.