The Toronto Bills Connection in a New Light

[ghz in pittsburgh]

Just heard the WGR radio interview with Mr. Simmons. He really puts this Toronto game in a new light and he claims that he has sources.

According to him, the deal of loads of money for 5 regular season games in Toronto in 5 seasons is to give an eventual buyer of the Bills (when Ralph passes) an advantage - at the time, the buyer would be Mr. Rogers.

He reasons that if another buyer comes around, say from LA or Vegas, wants to buy the Bills, that buyer would be facing the issue of having to play one home game in Toronto, which makes it very unattractive.

Now if Toronto manages to extend the deal to get to two or more games in more years, it will be even more unattractive to others.

The Rogers lost 7 million dollars for each game they played in Toronto, but they consider it an investment because when the Bills are up for sale, it's obvious who has the advantage right there.

Even now Rogers has passed away, Mr. Simmons revealed that his sources told him that potential buyer "is right there."

[realdealryan]

6 home games in Buffalo > 0 home games in Buffalo

[Philagape]

If the Toronto deal makes all that money for the Bills, why would it make them unattractive to a buyer? It's a windfall for the owner

[THATHURMANATOR]

Will this new guy want to move the team to Toronto full time though. That is the problem.

[ghz in pittsburgh]

Will this new guy want to move the team to Toronto full time though. That is the problem.

That's the intent - according to Simmons.

And you can guess what the NFL would think.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Well then I hope he dies in a car wreck.

[realdealryan]

or Jim Kelly wins the lottery

[The Spaz]

**** that!

[HHURRICANE]

Thank Mr. Wilson.

[Mudflap1]

Isn't this pretty much one of the worst nightmares confirmed? Toronto games = first step towards getting the Bills out of Buffalo and into Toronto full-time once Ralph passes and the team is up for sale? Of course Rogers' company would have the upper hand.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Whatever who cares anymore? As I stated before Just get it over with already.

[Dr. Lecter]

Thank Mr. Wilson.

Thank WNY's shrinking economy and population.

Mr. Wilson, for all his faults, has kept the Bills in Buffalo long after Buffalo and WNY is a suitable market for a NFL team. The area is too small and too poor to support the NFL.

Blaming Ralph for thisis grossly unfair and uninformed of the realities of the situation.

[The Spaz]

If Toronto buys the Bills the team will fold within 5 years. There is not nearly enough interest from Canadiens to sustain IMO. Are people going to buy season tickets for a team that is in another country and you have to pay the toll as well. F-that people will be pissed and simply not go.

[ddaryl]

Thank Mr. Wilson.

besides Ralph just coming out and say he'll sell to a local owner for less, what else could be done. One way or another this team is going to be sold and the odds are the winning bidder is not going ot have any affiliations with Western NY.

Now if Ralph had just a smidgen of heart he would take the hit and work with locals to keep the team in Buffalo, but he doesn't.

[Dr. Lecter]

besides Ralph just coming out and say he'll sell to a local owner for less, what else could be done. One way or another this team is going to be sold and the odds are the winning bidder is not going ot have any affiliations with Western NY.

Now if Ralph had just a smidgen of heart he would take the hit and work with locals to keep the team in Buffalo, but he doesn't.

Ralph can't do that.

The sale has to be approved by the other NFL owners. Do you really think they will allow a team to be sold for less than its market value?

[ddaryl]

Ralph can't do that.

The sale has to be approved by the other NFL owners. Do you really think they will allow a team to be sold for less than its market value?

I guess not... but then again if he owns the franchise then it should be his right to sell the team for whatever he wants. If he can't sell the team for whatever he wants then I would think that the NFL could do a heluva a better job splitting the revenues from all 32 teams before they tell an owner how much they can sell something they own for.

Reading the above posts has people blaming Ralph for the team being moved, and blaming Ralph for giving Toronto the upper hand in where it will be moved.

He may have given Toronto the upper hand, but in all honesty does anyhone have a preference to where the team is moved to.

[Dr. Lecter]

As a NFL franchise owner, he does not have the right to sell it to whomever he wants. It is a league bylaw.

Whether it is just or not is a 2nd question.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Thank WNY's shrinking economy and population.

Mr. Wilson, for all his faults, has kept the Bills in Buffalo long after Buffalo and WNY is a suitable market for a NFL team. The area is too small and too poor to support the NFL.

Blaming Ralph for thisis grossly unfair and uninformed of the realities of the situation.
Stop licking Wilsons balls already. The Bills are one of the more profitable teams in the league. Enough with this nonsense. If they wanted to keep the Bills here they could and make a lot of money. Just not as much as if they were in Toronto.

[Historian]

Thank WNY's shrinking economy and population.

Mr. Wilson, for all his faults, has kept the Bills in Buffalo long after Buffalo and WNY is a suitable market for a NFL team. The area is too small and too poor to support the NFL.

Blaming Ralph for thisis grossly unfair and uninformed of the realities of the situation.

I politely disagree.

The guy has sold out practically every game this decade, despite having one of the worst products on the field. Business Back the Bills, the county, as well as the state have bent over backwards for him and his team.

This state has supported Ralph Wilson to the utmost. (Probably one of the only things everyone agrees on) Hell, even displaced out of towners still support the team monitarilly, even if their butt isn't in a seat every Sunday.

Just imagine the lines at the ticket office this November, if they're even in contention for the playoffs.

All this despite the second smallest market, and a depressed economy.

Ralph Wilson can go to hell.

[Dr. Lecter]

I politely disagree.

The guy has sold out practically every game this decade, despite having one of the worst products on the field. Business Back the Bills, the county, as well as the state have bent over backwards for him and his team.

This state has supported Ralph Wilson to the utmost. (Probably one of the only things everyone agrees on) Hell, even displaced out of towners still support the team monitarilly, even if their butt isn't in a seat every Sunday.

Just imagine the lines at the ticket office this November, if they're even in contention for the playoffs.

All this despite the second smallest market, and a depressed economy.

Ralph Wilson can go to hell.

They are sold out for every game. And fans have supported a crappy team.

But, as we all know, that is not where NFL makes their money. Remember, that ticket money is split with the visiting team 60/40. Loal groups have done as much as they can to support the team and the local government also supports them as much as possible. However, in reality, that is not exclusive to the Bills and WNY (see the concessions plaes like Baltimore made to steal the Browns)

At the end of the day, the big money and cash flow acquired by teams is through ad revenue and suite/luxury box sales. While the Bills poor performance is not doubt part of the reason, the Bills sell fewer boxes than the rest of the NFL and at a lower price too. The unshared revenue is not there for this team. Hell, many other teams even charge PSL's (another unshared revenue source) just to have the right to buy tickets to see their team play.

At the end of the day there is a lack of corporate presence in this area. I don't think any of us like how corporate the NFL (and all pro sports) has become. But it has happened. Without an improved are ecomony and an increased presence of big money companies willing to spend money on the team, there is really no owner with the exception of local people and Ralph who would be willing to keep a team in this area. The financial stream is not available. The big money guys like Snyder and Jones have changed the NFL permanently and not for the good.

[ddaryl]

the only problem is that more then likely the winning bidder is going to come from a bigger market. Anyone who buys the Bills would make more money in Toronto therefore the a bidder from Toronto can bid more.

The only hope we have is the relocation fee, but now that Toronto already has a home game would it even be considered relocation ???

[Dr. Lecter]

Stop licking Wilsons balls already. The Bills are one of the more profitable teams in the league. Enough with this nonsense. If they wanted to keep the Bills here they could and make a lot of money. Just not as much as if they were in Toronto.

Who is licking his balls?

Profitable is a relative term - there appears to be more money because Ralph has owned the team since 1960 and there is no debt load on the team. But the cash flow is not there, nor is the available resources that exist for most other NFL teams.

Ralph is not perfect - not at all. But to act like this situation is somehow entirely his fault and not a problem with the region itself is ignoring too many key facts and important factors.

[ghz in pittsburgh]

If Toronto buys the Bills the team will fold within 5 years. There is not nearly enough interest from Canadiens to sustain IMO. Are people going to buy season tickets for a team that is in another country and you have to pay the toll as well. F-that people will be pissed and simply not go.

I doubt that. Due to business, I travel to TO often and know a lot of people there. I can honestly say there are a lot of NFL fans, just may not be as many Bills fan as it was a given in Buffalo.

Again, TO is a booming city, financial center of Canada. They can and will support an NFL franchise. Whether it should at Bills expense is another question.

Like the Toronto Raptors, a perenial loser but still sold out every year. It just becomes a status thing to sit on the court side no matter how the team is doing - like in NYC.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Who is licking his balls?


YOU ARE. ENOUGH.

[ddaryl]

Stop licking Wilsons balls already. The Bills are one of the more profitable teams in the league. Enough with this nonsense. If they wanted to keep the Bills here they could and make a lot of money. Just not as much as if they were in Toronto.


not really. The new owner is going to fork out 800 million. Ralph paid what for the franchise back when ???

It'll take a heluva lot more suites for sale at a premium and a massive increase in ticket sales to regenerate a profit margin for the new owner to be anywheres close to what Ralph is seeing today.

I honestly see about a 0.1% chance fo the Bills being able to stay in Buffalo in any circumstance if the buying price is anywheres close to 800 million.

[ddaryl]

nice example guys.. We have a MOD and a ADMIN duking it out here. Aren't you guys supposed to set an example for us underlings :crazy:

[The Spaz]

I doubt that. Due to business, I travel to TO often and know a lot of people there. I can honestly say there are a lot of NFL fans, just may not be as many Bills fan as it was a given in Buffalo.

Again, TO is a booming city, financial center of Canada. They can and will support an NFL franchise. Whether it should at Bills expense is another question.

Like the Toronto Raptors, a perenial loser but still sold out every year. It just becomes a status thing to sit on the court side no matter how the team is doing - like in NYC.

That's all I need to know "not enough Bills fans" end of story.

[WeAreArthurMoates]

There's plenty of enough Bills fans. They haven't moved in 50 years and I still don't see that happening. I may be naive or to trustworthy but atleast I can sleep at night.

[The Spaz]

There's plenty of enough Bills fans. They haven't moved in 50 years and I still don't see that happening. I may be naive or to trustworthy but atleast I can sleep at night.

I was pointing out not enough in Canada if the team moved there.

[ghz in pittsburgh]

I was pointing out not enough in Canada if the team moved there.

Oh I think there will be enough to fill a stadium on game days. I'm just saying that for a city of Toronto's size, it may not be like in Dallas or Phily where 99% of the NFL fan there rooting for their home team. In a way that's expected because they don't have a home team yet and you know it's not that easy to change teams, especially NFL teams, that easily. It takes generations.

[Historian]

the Bills sell fewer boxes than the rest of the NFL and at a lower price too.

Sorry, I don't buy it. I'd like to see some hard numbers on that one.


At the end of the day there is a lack of corporate presence in this area. I don't think any of us like how corporate the NFL (and all pro sports) has become. But it has happened. Without an improved are ecomony and an increased presence of big money companies willing to spend money on the team, there is really no owner with the exception of local people and Ralph who would be willing to keep a team in this area. The financial stream is not available. The big money guys like Snyder and Jones have changed the NFL permanently and not for the good.

Again I disagree.

People always want to compare themselves to Dallas and Washington.

Is that a logical fallacy? (LOL) Try making a fair comparison.

Hunt died a couple years back. Kansas City didn't wet their pants over losing their team, despite the fact that their stadium is as old as ours.

New Orleans was practically wiped off the map. The Saints are still there.

The Raiders and Chargers play in stadiums older than ours.

Why aren't they moving?

Because their owners (save for Davis) give a crap.

[don137]

I can understand why Wilson does not want to sell the team due to taxes. He sells now he pays an enormous amount in capital gains tax and then when he dies his estate will be taxed even more thus ending up with a lot less then if he just waited until he died.
The problem I have is he sold out out the city that has supported him all these years to have the team go to the highest bidder instead of making it a requirement to keep the team here. That is the part that I despise and feel like it is only a matter of time to the demise of the BUFFALO Bills.
I will stop rooting for them the second they leave Buffalo. The Toronto deal already puts them at a disadvantage since that is anything but a home game based on the fan support.

[PromoTheRobot]

Isn't this pretty much one of the worst nightmares confirmed? Toronto games = first step towards getting the Bills out of Buffalo and into Toronto full-time once Ralph passes and the team is up for sale? Of course Rogers' company would have the upper hand.

Nightmare???? The way people piss and moan about Ralph Wilson and the Bills, I'd consider it a mercy killing! I mean really. Don't you ever get tired reading all the "woe-is-us" posts? I say split the games with Toronto. I only get to 4 or so a year anyway. No skin off my nose. It keeps the Bills in Buffalo, even part time. Hopefully Rogers will hire some decent football people and this team can finally compete instead of being a punchline to sick joke. I say "bring it on!"

PTR

[PromoTheRobot]

I can understand why Wilson does not want to sell the team due to taxes. He sells now he pays an enormous amount in capital gains tax and then when he dies his estate will be taxed even more thus ending up with a lot less then if he just waited until he died.
The problem I have is he sold out out the city that has supported him all these years to have the team go to the highest bidder instead of making it a requirement to keep the team here. That is the part that I despise and feel like it is only a matter of time to the demise of the BUFFALO Bills.
I will stop rooting for them the second they leave Buffalo. The Toronto deal already puts them at a disadvantage since that is anything but a home game based on the fan support.

You conveniently gloss over the fact that Wilson could have moved the Bills out of Buffalo anytime in the past 50 years and didn't. If he was such a money-grubber, the Bills would have been history decades ago.

This area is dying. Nobody owes pro football to Buffalo. The NFL is a billionaire's club. If you can't afford to compete then why bother? The Toronto/Buffalo split is at least an attempt to keep the franchise viable while still maintaining a connection to Buffalo. But most crybaby Bills fans won't see it that way. They'd rather fill their diapers over it.

PTR

[THATHURMANATOR]

not really. The new owner is going to fork out 800 million. Ralph paid what for the franchise back when ???

It'll take a heluva lot more suites for sale at a premium and a massive increase in ticket sales to regenerate a profit margin for the new owner to be anywheres close to what Ralph is seeing today.

I honestly see about a 0.1% chance fo the Bills being able to stay in Buffalo in any circumstance if the buying price is anywheres close to 800 million.
REALLY. The Bills are profitable in Buffalo. Just not enough for greedy money grubbing ass holes.

I don't disagree that they will probably move though.

[Mski]

i thought kelly was trying to get together with the owner of the bruins (a buffalo guy) to buy the bills when ralph passes

[ddaryl]

REALLY. The Bills are profitable in Buffalo. Just not enough for greedy money grubbing ass holes.

I don't disagree that they will probably move though.

I agree with money grubbing *******s, but in reality any person investing into a football franchise is going to expect a return on investment. There also going to expect to profit at some time. That is the reality of capitialism.

Would they be profitable if someone had a 800 million dollar lein on the franchise. The bills have to be paid, and there will be a loan to someone who is buying the team, it won't be 800 million cash. Even if it was purchased with cash, whomever bought the franchise is going to want to see a ROI.

So now you have everyday expenses, and you have a mortgage on the club, somethign Ralph does not have. The team may be profitting now with Ralph, but that profit marguin will get swallowed up easily when there is a loan payment involved.

[THATHURMANATOR]

nice example guys.. We have a MOD and a ADMIN duking it out here. Aren't you guys supposed to set an example for us underlings :crazy:
I am a powerless MOD so it doesn't count.

[THATHURMANATOR]

I agree with money grubbing *******s, but in reality any person investing into a football franchise is going to expect a return on investment. There also going to expect to profit at some time. That is the reality of capitialism.

Would they be profitable if someone had a 800 million dollar lein on the franchise. The bills have to be paid, and there will be a loan to someone who is buying the team, it won't be 800 million cash. Even if it was purchased with cash, whomever bought the franchise is going to want to see a ROI.

So now you have everyday expenses, and you have a mortgage on the club, somethign Ralph does not have. The team may be profitting now with Ralph, but that profit marguin will get swallowed up easily when there is a loan payment involved.
Agreed but ROI would be had at some time. Granted if the owner wanted immediate big returns he won't see it but it would be profitable over time just like any sound investment.

[casdhf]

At least we narrowed it down to TO or B-LO ... no worries about LA.

[THATHURMANATOR]

At least we narrowed it down to TO or B-LO ... no worries about LA.
:bf1: :ill:

[Dr. Lecter]

Sorry, I don't buy it. I'd like to see some hard numbers on that one. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Why not? It was reported last year. It makes total sense. But Iw ill try to find the old link later on.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
How many NFL cities, with the exception of <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:City w:st="on">Green Bay</st1:City>, have less of a corporate presence than <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Buffalo</st1:place></st1:City>? Who buys the big expensive boxes at NFL stadiums? Major corporations. How many major corporations have a strong presence in Buffalo/WNY? <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>

Again I disagree. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
People always want to compare themselves to Dallas and Washington. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Is that a logical fallacy? (LOL) Try making a fair comparison.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Hunt died a couple years back. <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Kansas City</st1:place></st1:City> didn't wet their pants over losing their team, despite the fact that their stadium is as old as ours. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">New Orleans</st1:place></st1:City> was practically wiped off the map. The Saints are still there.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
The Raiders and Chargers play in stadiums older than ours. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Why aren't they moving?<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Because their owners (save for <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Davis</st1:place></st1:City>) give a crap.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Who made a direct comparison to Washington or Dallas? I just choose two owners that have driven the costs sky high. But there are others. Look at Modell in <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Baltimore</st1:place></st1:City> with his PSLs. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
And yes, there was little mention of KC moving. Of course, his family was willing to take over. So now you are making an unfair comparison. It might be a, well, you know. :D<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
As for the Saints and Chargers, there is often talk of them moving (along with <st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Minnesota</st1:place></st1:State>). The NFL would not let <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">New Orleans</st1:place></st1:City> move. A public relations disaster. <st1:City w:st="on">San Diego</st1:City>, in terms of city size and money available, is not even close to <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Buffalo</st1:place></st1:City>. And the Raiders could move tomorrow back to LA or to <st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Montana</st1:place></st1:State>. <st1:City w:st="on">Davis</st1:City> is 10X as insane as <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Wilson</st1:place></st1:City>. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Ralph gives a crap. Has he lost some of his mind? Sure. But even at 90, he is still sharper than many people on this board. has he made some terrible mistakes? Hell yes. <st1:PersonName w:st="on">Tom</st1:PersonName> Donahoe comes to mind.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
But at the end of the day this team can't generate the unshared revenue other teams are able to generate. Has Ralph still made a mint off the team? For sure. But when he croaks, why would an owner keep the team here when he can move it and make much, much more? <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
I would be interested in seeing what the income, per capita, is in all NFL cities. I can almost guarantee that <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Buffalo</st1:place></st1:City> will be in the lower 3rd, if not the bottom 5. I would also like to see figures on corporate presence in the other cities. Again, I can almost guarantee that <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Buffalo</st1:place></st1:City> is bottom 5.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
The harsh reality is that this area is likely not able to support the NFL any longer. Maybe some of this will change with a new CBA (the old one, which sucked is a killer) Unfortunately, the shrinking financial base of WNY (not fan base) is what will kill this team. Toronto is the equivalent to a hail mary - it might be the only thing that can keep the team solvent.

And this is not necessarily a defense of Ralph. It is an indictment of the economics of WNY and commentary on the current state of the NFL and what is needed to survive. It is not a pretty picture for a depressed area.
<o:p> </o:p>

[THATHURMANATOR]

Lecter STOP IT.

[Dr. Lecter]

Sorry Thurm. But I am in a very practical/realistic mood today.

[casdhf]

:bf1: :ill: Thurm, this burden could also drive down the price--like an anchor around your neck!

[Luisito23]

Thurm, this burden could also drive down the price--like an anchor around your neck!


:bf1:

[THATHURMANATOR]

Thurm, this burden could also drive down the price--like an anchor around your neck!
No it would be more like breaking the Anchor and setting Thurm free. No more worrying about the Bills. It could be a freeing experience.

[Luisito23]

No it would be more like breaking the Anchor and setting Thurm free.


http://www.pauldavidson.net/wp-content/themes/wfme/images/entries/oswalt.jpg

[don137]

You conveniently gloss over the fact that Wilson could have moved the Bills out of Buffalo anytime in the past 50 years and didn't. If he was such a money-grubber, the Bills would have been history decades ago.

This area is dying. Nobody owes pro football to Buffalo. The NFL is a billionaire's club. If you can't afford to compete then why bother? The Toronto/Buffalo split is at least an attempt to keep the franchise viable while still maintaining a connection to Buffalo. But most crybaby Bills fans won't see it that way. They'd rather fill their diapers over it.

PTR

I did not conveniently gloss over anything because the fact that he could care less if the Bills stay in Buffalo after he dies makes me lose any respect for the fact that he kept the team here for 50 years.
If anything he has caused more heartache to us fans with his terrible ownership.
By having the team in Toronto he is making this team less competitive by costing the team a home game. By having such a terrible front office he is making this team less competitive. Ralph is making money on this franchise even before playing in Toronto. He is only making more money due to the Toronto deal but I have yet to see where it is making the Bills more competitive.