John Murphy says Peters and Dock COMBINED to give up 11.5 sacks last year

[OpIv37]

Film study shows that the left side of the Bills offensive line, Peters and departed guard Derrick Dockery, were responsible for 11 1/2 of the 24 sacks the Bills allowed last year.

http://blogs.wivb.com/category/news-4-buffalo-sports/

(yes, I know the link is in another thread, but this is specifically to discuss this "stat")

So, will you sheeple STOP blindly parroting this mantra that Peters gave up 11.5 or 13.5 sacks by himself last year?

It's a subjective stat open to interpretation by people who do NOT know what the coverage assignments were. It also doesn't correct for the sacks caused by Edwards and JP holding on to the ball for too long.

And in fairness, I have no way of knowing if Murphy is more accurate or if the other stat is more accurate, but the point remains that it is open to interpretation and NOT an objective fact.


Try thinking for yourselves instead of blindly repeating a subjective number to justify your pre-determined position.

[Philagape]

Re: John Murphy says Peters and Dock COMBINED to give up 11.5 sacks last year

All those other factors go for the rest of the league too.

[OpIv37]

Re: John Murphy says Peters and Dock COMBINED to give up 11.5 sacks last year

All those other factors go for the rest of the league too.

but they're subjective so there's no way to prove that they were applied consistently to different players on different teams. And not knowing the blocking schemes means they NEVER really know who's responsibility it was and this could greatly skew the results.

[psubills62]

Re: John Murphy says Peters and Dock COMBINED to give up 11.5 sacks last year

That seems strange, since the Bills gave up more than 24 sacks in 2008. According to nfl.com, Edwards was sacked 23 times and Losman was sacked 15 times. Those sound like the numbers from 2007 (the total sack numbers, that is).

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&seasonType=REG&d-447263-o=1&conference=null&statisticCategory=PASSING&d-447263-s=PERSON_TEAMS.PERSONS.LAST_NAME&experience=null&d-447263-n=1&season=2008&qualified=false&tabSeq=0&d-447263-p=2

It seems like Murphy needs to study the film a little more and count the number of sacks again.

[OpIv37]

Re: John Murphy says Peters and Dock COMBINED to give up 11.5 sacks last year

That seems strange, since the Bills gave up more than 24 sacks in 2008. According to nfl.com, Edwards was sacked 23 times and Losman was sacked 15 times. Those sound like the numbers from 2007 (the total sack numbers, that is).

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&seasonType=REG&d-447263-o=1&conference=null&statisticCategory=PASSING&d-447263-s=PERSON_TEAMS.PERSONS.LAST_NAME&experience=null&d-447263-n=1&season=2008&qualified=false&tabSeq=0&d-447263-p=2

It seems like Murphy needs to study the film a little more and count the number of sacks again.

maybe he was only counting the games where Peters played ?

[psubills62]

Re: John Murphy says Peters and Dock COMBINED to give up 11.5 sacks last year

maybe he was only counting the games where Peters played ?

Really? We gave up 14 sacks in 3 or so games? Seems a little strange, since we only gave up one to the Seahawks.

I don't know why there's the discrepancy in sack numbers, but I guarantee we gave up more than 24 sacks last year. I've got tapes from the games that I want to watch sometime, so maybe that will help clear it up (though I don't have all the games).

[Goobylal]

Re: John Murphy says Peters and Dock COMBINED to give up 11.5 sacks last year

The Bills gave up 38 sacks last year. And 34 sacks in the games Peters played. I'd like to know where they got 24 sacks, and have to believe they looked at 2007 as well, seeing as how they didn't qualify the "24 sacks" comment.

[feldspar]

Re: John Murphy says Peters and Dock COMBINED to give up 11.5 sacks last year

Well, here's where it stood at week 17 of last year according to the official stats:

ranked 31st at LT (tied)... Jason Peters - 11.5 sacks allowed (13 starts)
ranked 32nd at LG... Derrick Dockery - 8.25 sacks allowed (16 starts)
ranked 8th at Center... Duke Preston - 0.75 sacks allowed (11 starts)
ranked 4th at RG (tied)... Brad Butler - 1.0 sacks allowed (13 starts)
ranked 8th at RT (tied) - Langston Walker - 3.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)

Add up these sacks allowed, and it only comes to 24.5. Apparently, the other 13.5 sacks were allowed by other players such as Fowler, etc., who did not play enough to make the list.

Trent Edwards was sacked 23 times trough 12.5 games, and JP Losman was sacked 15 times through 3.5 games.

Add up the sack totals of the two QBs, and you get 38 sacks.

While reading these stats, I didn't see any asterisk saying that any combonation of lineman allowed a certain amount of sacks together. Maybe John Murphy can tell us how many sacks Peters really allowed all my himself...because, according to this list, Peters and Dockery combined for 19.75 sacks allowed.

Peters is accredited for allowing 30% of the sacks that happened on the team last year after only having played 13 games.

Here is the list:

Left Tackle

1. Ryan Clady (Broncos) 0.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
2. Michael Roos (Titans) 1.0 sacks allowed (16 starts) *PRO-BOWL Reserve*
3. Tra Thomas (Eagles) 2.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
3. Orlando Pace (Rams) 2.0 sacks allowed (14 starts)
5. Jake Long (Dolphins) 2.5 sacks allowed (16 starts) *PRO-BOWL Reserve*
6. Jordan Gross (Panthers) 3.0 sacks allowed (15 starts) *PRO-BOWL*
6. Jammal Brown (Saints) 3.0 sacks allowed (15 starts) *PRO-BOWL Reserve*
6. Jared Gaither (Ravens) 3.0 sacks allowed (15 starts)
6. Marcus McNeill (Chargers) 3.0 sacks allowed (14 starts)
6. Tony Ugoh (Colts) 3.0 sacks allowed (12 starts)
6. Chris Samuels (Redskins) 3.0 sacks allowed (12 starts) *PRO-BOWL Reserve*
6. Todd Weiner (Falcons) 3.0 sacks allowed (11 starts)
13. Walter Jones (Seahawks) 3.5 sacks allowed (12 starts) *PRO-BOWL*
14. D’Brickashaw Ferguson (Jets) 4.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
14. Bryant McKinnie (Vikings) 4.0 sacks allowed (12 starts)
14. Max Starks (Steelers) 4.0 sacks allowed (11 starts)
17. Joe Thomas (Browns) 4.5 sacks allowed (16 starts) *PRO-BOWL*
17. Branden Albert (Cheifs) 4.5 sacks allowed (15 starts)
19. Levi Jones (Bengals) 5.5 sacks allowed (11 starts)
20. Mike Gandy (Cardinals) 6.25 sacks allowed (16 starts)
21. David Diehl (Giants) 6.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
22. Flozell Adams (Cowboys) 7.25 sacks allowed (16 starts) *PRO-BOWL Reserve*
23. Khalif Barnes (Jags) 7.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
23. Matt Light (Pats) 7.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
23. Chad Clifton (Packers) 7.5 sacks allowed (15 starts)
23. Kwame Harris (Raiders) 7.5 sacks allowed (11 starts)
27. Joe Staley (49ers) 8.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
28. Donald Penn (Bucs) 8.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
29. Jeff Backus (Lions) 9.25 sacks allowed (16 starts)
30. John St. Clair (Bears) 9.75 sacks allowed (16 starts)
31. Duane Brown (Texans) 11.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
31. Jason Peters (Bills) 11.5 sacks allowed (13 starts) *PRO-BOWL*


Left Guard

1. Kris Dielman (Chargers) 0 sacks allowed (16 starts) *PRO-BOWL*
1. Charlie Johnson (Colts) 0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
1. David Baas (49ers) 0 sacks allowed (9 starts)
4. Carl Nicks (Saints) 0.5 sacks allowed (13 starts)
5. Todd Herremans (Eagles) 0.75 sacks allowed (15 starts)
6. Brian Waters (Chiefs) 1.0 sacks allowed (16 starts) *PRO-BOWL Reserve*
7. Josh Beekman (Bears) 1.25 sacks allowed (16 starts)
8. Robert Gallery (Raiders) 1.75 sacks allowed (16 starts)
8. Reggie Wells (Cardinals) 1.75 sacks allowed (16 starts)
10. Eugene Amano (Titans) 2.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
10. Chris Chester (Ravens) 2.0 sacks allowed (11 starts)
12. Chester Pitts (Texans) 2.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
12. Ben Hamilton (Broncos) 2.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
12. Travelle Wharton (Panthers) 2.5 sacks allowed (14 starts)
12. Jacob Bell (Rams) 2.5 sacks allowed (13 starts)
12. Jeff Smiley (Dolphins) 2.5 sacks allowed (12 starts)
17. Rich Seubert (Giants) 3.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
17. Pete Kendall (Redskins) 3.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
17. Justin Blalock (Falcons) 3.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
27. Eric Steinbach (Browns) 3.0 sacks allowed (14 starts)
21. Floyd Womack (Seahawks) 3.5 sacks allowed (14 starts)
22. Edwin Mulitalo (Lions) 4.25 sacks allowed (11 starts)
23. Arron Sears (Bucs) 4.5 sacks allowed (15 starts)
23. Uche Nwaneri (Jags) 4.5 sacks allowed (15 starts)
23. Cory Procter (Cowboys) 4.5 sacks allowed (11 starts)
26. Logan Mankins (Pats) 5.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
26. Andrew Whitworth (Bengals) 5.0 sacks allowed (10 starts)
28. Daryn Colledge (Packers) 6.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
29. Steve Hutchinson (Vikings) 7.0 sacks allowed (16 starts) *PRO-BOWL*
29. Alan Faneca (Jets) 7.0 sacks allowed (16 starts) *PRO-BOWL*
31. Chris Kemoeatu (Steelers) 7.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
32. Derrick Dockery (Bills) 8.25 sacks allowed (16 starts)



Center
1. Olin Kreutz (Bears) 0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
1. Todd McClure (Falcons) 0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
1. Chris Myers (Texans) 0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
1. Kevin Mawae (Titans) 0 sacks allowed (15 starts) *PRO-BOWL*
1. Ryan Kalil (Panthers) 0 sacks allowed (12 starts)
6. Brad Meester (Jags) 0.25 sacks allowed (10 starts)
7. Lyle Sendlein (Cardinals) 0.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
8. Duke Preston (Bills) 0.75 sacks allowed (11 starts)
9. Casey Wiegmann (Broncos) 1.0 sacks allowed (16 starts) *PRO-BOWL Reserve*
9. Jeff Faine (Bucs) 1.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
9. Jonathan Goodwin (Saints) 1.0 sacks allowed (13 starts)
12. Nick Mangold (Jets) 2.0 sacks allowed (16 starts) *PRO-BOWL Reserve*
12. Andre Gurode (Cowboys) 2.0 sacks allowed (16 starts) *PRO-BOWL*
12. Shaun O’Hara (Giants) 2.0 sacks allowed (16 starts) *PRO-BOWL Reserve*
12. Matt Birk (Vikings) 2.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
12. Jeff Saturday (Colts) 2.0 sacks allowed (12 starts)
12. Dominic Raiola (Lions) 2.0 sacks allowed (12 starts)
12. Nick Leckey (Rams) 2.0 sacks allowed (10 starts)
19. Jason Brown (Ravens) 2.25 sacks allowed (16 starts)
19. Jamaal Jackson (Eagles) 2.25 sacks allowed (16 starts)
21. Hank Fraley (Browns) 2.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
21. Nick Hardwick (Chargers) 2.5 sacks allowed (13 starts)
21. Jake Grove (Raiders) 2.5 sacks allowed (12 starts)
21. Chris Spencer (Seahawks) 2.5 sacks allowed (11 starts)
25. Rudy Niswanger (Chiefs) 3.5 sacks allowed (15 starts)
25. Scott Wells (Packers) 3.5 sacks allowed (13 starts)
27. Eric Heitmann (49ers) 4.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
27. Eric Ghaiciuc (Bengals) 4.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
29. Samson Satele (Dolphins) 4.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
29. Dan Koppen (Pats) 4.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
31. Casey Rabach (Redskins) 5.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
32. Justin Harwig (Steelers) 6.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)



Right Guard

1. Chris Kuper (Broncos) 0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
2. Jake Scott (Titans) 0.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
2. Max Jean-Gilles (Eagles) 0.5 sacks allowed (10 starts)
4. Chris Snee (Giants) 1.0 sacks allowed (16 starts) *PRO-BOWL*
4. Harvey Dahl (Falcons) 1.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
4. Jason Spitz (Packers) 1.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
4. Ikechuku Ndukwe (Dolphins) 1.0 sacks allowed (15 starts)
4. Brad Butler (Bills) 1.0 sacks allowed (13 starts)
4. Davin Joseph (Bucs) 1.0 sacks allowed (12 starts) *PRO-BOWL Reserve*
4. Adrian Jones (Chiefs) 1.0 sacks allowed (10 starts)
11. Rex Hadnot (Browns) 1.5 sacks allowed (15 starts)
12. Deuce Lutui (Cardinals) 2.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
12. Brandon Moore (Jets) 2.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
12. Mike Brisiel (Texans) 2.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)…ERFA
12. Jahri Evans (Saints) 2.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)…RFA
12. Mike Pollak (Colts) 2.0 sacks allowed (13 starts)
12. Stephen Neal (Pats) 2.0 sacks allowed (9 starts)
18. Roberto Garza (Bears) 2.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
19. Randy Thomas (Redskins) 4.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
19. Bobbie Williams (Bengals) 4.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
19. Cooper Carlisle (Raiders) 4.0 sacks allowed (15 starts)
19. Stephen Peterman (Lions) 4.0 sacks allowed (14 starts)
19. Tony Wragge (49ers) 4.0 sacks allowed (10 starts)…RFA
24. Leonard Davis (Cowboys) 4.5 sacks allowed (16 starts) *PRO-BOWL Reserve*
24. Mike Goff (Chargers) 4.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
26. Darnell Stapleton (Steelers) 5.0 sacks allowed (12 starts)
27. Ben Grubbs (Ravens) 6.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
27. Richie Incognito (Rams) 6.5 sacks allowed (15 starts)
29. Dennis Norman (Jags) 7.25 sacks allowed (14 starts)
30. Anthony Herrera (Vikings) 7.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)

***No Seahawk or Panther started more then 8 games at RG



Right Tackle

1. Ryan Diem (Colts) 1.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
1. Jon Stinchcomb (Saints) 1.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
1. Ray Willis (Seahawks) 1.5 sacks allowed (10 starts)
4. David Stewart (Titans) 2.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
4. Mark Tauscher (Packers) 2.0 sacks allowed (13 starts)
6. Ryan Harris (Broncos) 2.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
6. Tyson Clabo (Falcons) 2.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
8. Langston Walker (Bills) 3.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
8. Nick Kaczur (Pats) 3.0 sacks allowed (14 starts)
10. Willie Anderson (Ravens) 3.5 sacks allowed (11 starts)
11. Kareem McKenzie (Giants) 4.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
11. Vernon Carey (Dolphins) 4.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
11. Kevin Shaffer (Browns) 4.5 sacks allowed (15 starts)
14. Jeff Otah (Panthers) 5.0 sacks allowed (12 starts)
15. Tony Pashos (Jags) 5.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
15. Marc Colombo (Cowboys) 5.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
17. Willie Colon (Steelers) 5.75 sacks allowed (16 starts)…RFA
18. John Tait (Bears) 6.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
18. Jeremy Trueblood (Bucs) 6.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
18. Ryan Cook (Vikings) 6.0 sacks allowed (14 starts)
18. Gosder Cherilus (Lions) 6.0 sacks allowed (13 starts)
22. Damien Woody (Jets) 6.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
22. Jeromey Clary (Chargers) 6.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
22. Jon Jansen (Redskins) 6.5 sacks allowed (11 starts)
25. Jon Runyan (Eagles) 7.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
25. Damion McIntosh (Chiefs) 7.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
27. Cornell Green (Raiders) 7.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
27. Alex Barron (Rams) 7.5 sacks allowed (15 starts)
29. Eric Winston (Texans) 8.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
30. Stacy Andrews (Bengals) 9.5 sacks allowed (15 starts)
31. Adam Snyder (49ers) 9.5 sacks allowed (13 starts)
32. Levi Brown (Cardinals) 11.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)

[dasaybz]

Re: John Murphy says Peters and Dock COMBINED to give up 11.5 sacks last year

So since when is combining to give up 11.5 sacks good?

[psubills62]

Re: John Murphy says Peters and Dock COMBINED to give up 11.5 sacks last year

So since when is combining to give up 11.5 sacks good?

Well if it's true, then it doesn't tell us how many sacks Peters gave up vs. Dockery. It's strange that Murphy said it like that, since it could mean that Peters gave up 1 sack and Dockery gave up 10.5...or vice versa.

Maybe there were a couple of sacks that could be split between them, but that's when you give 0.5 or 0.25 sacks per lineman.

I don't understand why Murphy would talk about it in terms of combined between the two.

[Goobylal]

Re: John Murphy says Peters and Dock COMBINED to give up 11.5 sacks last year

Well, here's where it stood at week 17 of last year according to the official stats:

ranked 31st at LT (tied)... Jason Peters - 11.5 sacks allowed (13 starts)
ranked 32nd at LG... Derrick Dockery - 8.25 sacks allowed (16 starts)
ranked 8th at Center... Duke Preston - 0.75 sacks allowed (11 starts)
ranked 4th at RG (tied)... Brad Butler - 1.0 sacks allowed (13 starts)
ranked 8th at RT (tied) - Langston Walker - 3.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)

Add up these sacks allowed, and it only comes to 24.5. Apparently, the other 13.5 sacks were allowed by other players such as Fowler, etc., who did not play enough to make the list.

Fowler (5 starts) allowed 2 sacks. Chambers (4 starts) gave-up 2 sacks. Whittle (2 starts) gave up 1 sack. That accounts for all 80 starts by O-linemen. So that adds-up to 29.5 sacks given-up by the O-linemen, leaving the remaining 8.5 to the backs or elsewhere, which makes sense since the O-line doesn't always give-up sacks. So the "Peters and Dockery gave up 11.5 sacks" is wrong.

[justasportsfan]

Re: John Murphy says Peters and Dock COMBINED to give up 11.5 sacks last year

http://blogs.wivb.com/category/news-4-buffalo-sports/

(yes, I know the link is in another thread, but this is specifically to discuss this "stat")

So, will you sheeple STOP blindly parroting this mantra that Peters gave up 11.5 or 13.5 sacks by himself last year?

It's a subjective stat open to interpretation by people who do NOT know what the coverage assignments were. It also doesn't correct for the sacks caused by Edwards and JP holding on to the ball for too long.

And in fairness, I have no way of knowing if Murphy is more accurate or if the other stat is more accurate, but the point remains that it is open to interpretation and NOT an objective fact.


Try thinking for yourselves instead of blindly repeating a subjective number to justify your pre-determined position.

Walker gave up 10.5 sacks as a raider all by himself.

[Ginger Vitis]

Re: John Murphy says Peters and Dock COMBINED to give up 11.5 sacks last year

Interesting that Alan Faneca and Steve Hutchison perrennial pro bowlers and 2 of the highest paid LGs in football were in the bottom 5 in sacks given up for Left Guards

[feldspar]

Re: John Murphy says Peters and Dock COMBINED to give up 11.5 sacks last year

So since when is combining to give up 11.5 sacks good?

It's not even true...

How about giving up two sacks which pretty much lost us two games...Miami safety and the Jets debacle?

How about having a guy that admits that he wasn't up to speed until week 6, after which we went 2-10?

[Dr. Lecter]

Re: John Murphy says Peters and Dock COMBINED to give up 11.5 sacks last year

Well, here's where it stood at week 17 of last year according to the official stats:

These are NOT official stats. For a very good reason.

Peters could be blocking a guy and release him to the inside for Dockery to pick up. Or to the outside for the back to block. Or he could be blamed for an instance when there are 6 rushers and 5 blockers. Or the QB, while scrambling, runs into Peters man.

Any attempt by somebody to compile this info with knowledge of the play call and pass protection scheme is pointless.