John Murphy says Peters and Dock COMBINED to give up 11.5 sacks last year

[OpIv37]

Film study shows that the left side of the Bills offensive line, Peters and departed guard Derrick Dockery, were responsible for 11 1/2 of the 24 sacks the Bills allowed last year.

http://blogs.wivb.com/category/news-4-buffalo-sports/

(yes, I know the link is in another thread, but this is specifically to discuss this "stat")

So, will you sheeple STOP blindly parroting this mantra that Peters gave up 11.5 or 13.5 sacks by himself last year?

It's a subjective stat open to interpretation by people who do NOT know what the coverage assignments were. It also doesn't correct for the sacks caused by Edwards and JP holding on to the ball for too long.

And in fairness, I have no way of knowing if Murphy is more accurate or if the other stat is more accurate, but the point remains that it is open to interpretation and NOT an objective fact.


Try thinking for yourselves instead of blindly repeating a subjective number to justify your pre-determined position.

[Philagape]

All those other factors go for the rest of the league too.

[OpIv37]

All those other factors go for the rest of the league too.

but they're subjective so there's no way to prove that they were applied consistently to different players on different teams. And not knowing the blocking schemes means they NEVER really know who's responsibility it was and this could greatly skew the results.

[psubills62]

That seems strange, since the Bills gave up more than 24 sacks in 2008. According to nfl.com, Edwards was sacked 23 times and Losman was sacked 15 times. Those sound like the numbers from 2007 (the total sack numbers, that is).

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&seasonType=REG&d-447263-o=1&conference=null&statisticCategory=PASSING&d-447263-s=PERSON_TEAMS.PERSONS.LAST_NAME&experience=null&d-447263-n=1&season=2008&qualified=false&tabSeq=0&d-447263-p=2

It seems like Murphy needs to study the film a little more and count the number of sacks again.

[OpIv37]

That seems strange, since the Bills gave up more than 24 sacks in 2008. According to nfl.com, Edwards was sacked 23 times and Losman was sacked 15 times. Those sound like the numbers from 2007 (the total sack numbers, that is).

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&seasonType=REG&d-447263-o=1&conference=null&statisticCategory=PASSING&d-447263-s=PERSON_TEAMS.PERSONS.LAST_NAME&experience=null&d-447263-n=1&season=2008&qualified=false&tabSeq=0&d-447263-p=2

It seems like Murphy needs to study the film a little more and count the number of sacks again.

maybe he was only counting the games where Peters played ?

[psubills62]

maybe he was only counting the games where Peters played ?

Really? We gave up 14 sacks in 3 or so games? Seems a little strange, since we only gave up one to the Seahawks.

I don't know why there's the discrepancy in sack numbers, but I guarantee we gave up more than 24 sacks last year. I've got tapes from the games that I want to watch sometime, so maybe that will help clear it up (though I don't have all the games).

[Goobylal]

The Bills gave up 38 sacks last year. And 34 sacks in the games Peters played. I'd like to know where they got 24 sacks, and have to believe they looked at 2007 as well, seeing as how they didn't qualify the "24 sacks" comment.

[feldspar]

Well, here's where it stood at week 17 of last year according to the official stats:

ranked 31st at LT (tied)... Jason Peters - 11.5 sacks allowed (13 starts)
ranked 32nd at LG... Derrick Dockery - 8.25 sacks allowed (16 starts)
ranked 8th at Center... Duke Preston - 0.75 sacks allowed (11 starts)
ranked 4th at RG (tied)... Brad Butler - 1.0 sacks allowed (13 starts)
ranked 8th at RT (tied) - Langston Walker - 3.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)

Add up these sacks allowed, and it only comes to 24.5. Apparently, the other 13.5 sacks were allowed by other players such as Fowler, etc., who did not play enough to make the list.

Trent Edwards was sacked 23 times trough 12.5 games, and JP Losman was sacked 15 times through 3.5 games.

Add up the sack totals of the two QBs, and you get 38 sacks.

While reading these stats, I didn't see any asterisk saying that any combonation of lineman allowed a certain amount of sacks together. Maybe John Murphy can tell us how many sacks Peters really allowed all my himself...because, according to this list, Peters and Dockery combined for 19.75 sacks allowed.

Peters is accredited for allowing 30% of the sacks that happened on the team last year after only having played 13 games.

Here is the list:

Left Tackle

1. Ryan Clady (Broncos) 0.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
2. Michael Roos (Titans) 1.0 sacks allowed (16 starts) *PRO-BOWL Reserve*
3. Tra Thomas (Eagles) 2.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
3. Orlando Pace (Rams) 2.0 sacks allowed (14 starts)
5. Jake Long (Dolphins) 2.5 sacks allowed (16 starts) *PRO-BOWL Reserve*
6. Jordan Gross (Panthers) 3.0 sacks allowed (15 starts) *PRO-BOWL*
6. Jammal Brown (Saints) 3.0 sacks allowed (15 starts) *PRO-BOWL Reserve*
6. Jared Gaither (Ravens) 3.0 sacks allowed (15 starts)
6. Marcus McNeill (Chargers) 3.0 sacks allowed (14 starts)
6. Tony Ugoh (Colts) 3.0 sacks allowed (12 starts)
6. Chris Samuels (Redskins) 3.0 sacks allowed (12 starts) *PRO-BOWL Reserve*
6. Todd Weiner (Falcons) 3.0 sacks allowed (11 starts)
13. Walter Jones (Seahawks) 3.5 sacks allowed (12 starts) *PRO-BOWL*
14. D’Brickashaw Ferguson (Jets) 4.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
14. Bryant McKinnie (Vikings) 4.0 sacks allowed (12 starts)
14. Max Starks (Steelers) 4.0 sacks allowed (11 starts)
17. Joe Thomas (Browns) 4.5 sacks allowed (16 starts) *PRO-BOWL*
17. Branden Albert (Cheifs) 4.5 sacks allowed (15 starts)
19. Levi Jones (Bengals) 5.5 sacks allowed (11 starts)
20. Mike Gandy (Cardinals) 6.25 sacks allowed (16 starts)
21. David Diehl (Giants) 6.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
22. Flozell Adams (Cowboys) 7.25 sacks allowed (16 starts) *PRO-BOWL Reserve*
23. Khalif Barnes (Jags) 7.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
23. Matt Light (Pats) 7.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
23. Chad Clifton (Packers) 7.5 sacks allowed (15 starts)
23. Kwame Harris (Raiders) 7.5 sacks allowed (11 starts)
27. Joe Staley (49ers) 8.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
28. Donald Penn (Bucs) 8.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
29. Jeff Backus (Lions) 9.25 sacks allowed (16 starts)
30. John St. Clair (Bears) 9.75 sacks allowed (16 starts)
31. Duane Brown (Texans) 11.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
31. Jason Peters (Bills) 11.5 sacks allowed (13 starts) *PRO-BOWL*


Left Guard

1. Kris Dielman (Chargers) 0 sacks allowed (16 starts) *PRO-BOWL*
1. Charlie Johnson (Colts) 0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
1. David Baas (49ers) 0 sacks allowed (9 starts)
4. Carl Nicks (Saints) 0.5 sacks allowed (13 starts)
5. Todd Herremans (Eagles) 0.75 sacks allowed (15 starts)
6. Brian Waters (Chiefs) 1.0 sacks allowed (16 starts) *PRO-BOWL Reserve*
7. Josh Beekman (Bears) 1.25 sacks allowed (16 starts)
8. Robert Gallery (Raiders) 1.75 sacks allowed (16 starts)
8. Reggie Wells (Cardinals) 1.75 sacks allowed (16 starts)
10. Eugene Amano (Titans) 2.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
10. Chris Chester (Ravens) 2.0 sacks allowed (11 starts)
12. Chester Pitts (Texans) 2.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
12. Ben Hamilton (Broncos) 2.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
12. Travelle Wharton (Panthers) 2.5 sacks allowed (14 starts)
12. Jacob Bell (Rams) 2.5 sacks allowed (13 starts)
12. Jeff Smiley (Dolphins) 2.5 sacks allowed (12 starts)
17. Rich Seubert (Giants) 3.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
17. Pete Kendall (Redskins) 3.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
17. Justin Blalock (Falcons) 3.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
27. Eric Steinbach (Browns) 3.0 sacks allowed (14 starts)
21. Floyd Womack (Seahawks) 3.5 sacks allowed (14 starts)
22. Edwin Mulitalo (Lions) 4.25 sacks allowed (11 starts)
23. Arron Sears (Bucs) 4.5 sacks allowed (15 starts)
23. Uche Nwaneri (Jags) 4.5 sacks allowed (15 starts)
23. Cory Procter (Cowboys) 4.5 sacks allowed (11 starts)
26. Logan Mankins (Pats) 5.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
26. Andrew Whitworth (Bengals) 5.0 sacks allowed (10 starts)
28. Daryn Colledge (Packers) 6.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
29. Steve Hutchinson (Vikings) 7.0 sacks allowed (16 starts) *PRO-BOWL*
29. Alan Faneca (Jets) 7.0 sacks allowed (16 starts) *PRO-BOWL*
31. Chris Kemoeatu (Steelers) 7.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
32. Derrick Dockery (Bills) 8.25 sacks allowed (16 starts)



Center
1. Olin Kreutz (Bears) 0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
1. Todd McClure (Falcons) 0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
1. Chris Myers (Texans) 0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
1. Kevin Mawae (Titans) 0 sacks allowed (15 starts) *PRO-BOWL*
1. Ryan Kalil (Panthers) 0 sacks allowed (12 starts)
6. Brad Meester (Jags) 0.25 sacks allowed (10 starts)
7. Lyle Sendlein (Cardinals) 0.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
8. Duke Preston (Bills) 0.75 sacks allowed (11 starts)
9. Casey Wiegmann (Broncos) 1.0 sacks allowed (16 starts) *PRO-BOWL Reserve*
9. Jeff Faine (Bucs) 1.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
9. Jonathan Goodwin (Saints) 1.0 sacks allowed (13 starts)
12. Nick Mangold (Jets) 2.0 sacks allowed (16 starts) *PRO-BOWL Reserve*
12. Andre Gurode (Cowboys) 2.0 sacks allowed (16 starts) *PRO-BOWL*
12. Shaun O’Hara (Giants) 2.0 sacks allowed (16 starts) *PRO-BOWL Reserve*
12. Matt Birk (Vikings) 2.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
12. Jeff Saturday (Colts) 2.0 sacks allowed (12 starts)
12. Dominic Raiola (Lions) 2.0 sacks allowed (12 starts)
12. Nick Leckey (Rams) 2.0 sacks allowed (10 starts)
19. Jason Brown (Ravens) 2.25 sacks allowed (16 starts)
19. Jamaal Jackson (Eagles) 2.25 sacks allowed (16 starts)
21. Hank Fraley (Browns) 2.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
21. Nick Hardwick (Chargers) 2.5 sacks allowed (13 starts)
21. Jake Grove (Raiders) 2.5 sacks allowed (12 starts)
21. Chris Spencer (Seahawks) 2.5 sacks allowed (11 starts)
25. Rudy Niswanger (Chiefs) 3.5 sacks allowed (15 starts)
25. Scott Wells (Packers) 3.5 sacks allowed (13 starts)
27. Eric Heitmann (49ers) 4.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
27. Eric Ghaiciuc (Bengals) 4.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
29. Samson Satele (Dolphins) 4.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
29. Dan Koppen (Pats) 4.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
31. Casey Rabach (Redskins) 5.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
32. Justin Harwig (Steelers) 6.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)



Right Guard

1. Chris Kuper (Broncos) 0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
2. Jake Scott (Titans) 0.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
2. Max Jean-Gilles (Eagles) 0.5 sacks allowed (10 starts)
4. Chris Snee (Giants) 1.0 sacks allowed (16 starts) *PRO-BOWL*
4. Harvey Dahl (Falcons) 1.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
4. Jason Spitz (Packers) 1.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
4. Ikechuku Ndukwe (Dolphins) 1.0 sacks allowed (15 starts)
4. Brad Butler (Bills) 1.0 sacks allowed (13 starts)
4. Davin Joseph (Bucs) 1.0 sacks allowed (12 starts) *PRO-BOWL Reserve*
4. Adrian Jones (Chiefs) 1.0 sacks allowed (10 starts)
11. Rex Hadnot (Browns) 1.5 sacks allowed (15 starts)
12. Deuce Lutui (Cardinals) 2.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
12. Brandon Moore (Jets) 2.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
12. Mike Brisiel (Texans) 2.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)…ERFA
12. Jahri Evans (Saints) 2.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)…RFA
12. Mike Pollak (Colts) 2.0 sacks allowed (13 starts)
12. Stephen Neal (Pats) 2.0 sacks allowed (9 starts)
18. Roberto Garza (Bears) 2.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
19. Randy Thomas (Redskins) 4.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
19. Bobbie Williams (Bengals) 4.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
19. Cooper Carlisle (Raiders) 4.0 sacks allowed (15 starts)
19. Stephen Peterman (Lions) 4.0 sacks allowed (14 starts)
19. Tony Wragge (49ers) 4.0 sacks allowed (10 starts)…RFA
24. Leonard Davis (Cowboys) 4.5 sacks allowed (16 starts) *PRO-BOWL Reserve*
24. Mike Goff (Chargers) 4.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
26. Darnell Stapleton (Steelers) 5.0 sacks allowed (12 starts)
27. Ben Grubbs (Ravens) 6.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
27. Richie Incognito (Rams) 6.5 sacks allowed (15 starts)
29. Dennis Norman (Jags) 7.25 sacks allowed (14 starts)
30. Anthony Herrera (Vikings) 7.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)

***No Seahawk or Panther started more then 8 games at RG



Right Tackle

1. Ryan Diem (Colts) 1.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
1. Jon Stinchcomb (Saints) 1.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
1. Ray Willis (Seahawks) 1.5 sacks allowed (10 starts)
4. David Stewart (Titans) 2.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
4. Mark Tauscher (Packers) 2.0 sacks allowed (13 starts)
6. Ryan Harris (Broncos) 2.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
6. Tyson Clabo (Falcons) 2.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
8. Langston Walker (Bills) 3.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
8. Nick Kaczur (Pats) 3.0 sacks allowed (14 starts)
10. Willie Anderson (Ravens) 3.5 sacks allowed (11 starts)
11. Kareem McKenzie (Giants) 4.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
11. Vernon Carey (Dolphins) 4.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
11. Kevin Shaffer (Browns) 4.5 sacks allowed (15 starts)
14. Jeff Otah (Panthers) 5.0 sacks allowed (12 starts)
15. Tony Pashos (Jags) 5.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
15. Marc Colombo (Cowboys) 5.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
17. Willie Colon (Steelers) 5.75 sacks allowed (16 starts)…RFA
18. John Tait (Bears) 6.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
18. Jeremy Trueblood (Bucs) 6.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
18. Ryan Cook (Vikings) 6.0 sacks allowed (14 starts)
18. Gosder Cherilus (Lions) 6.0 sacks allowed (13 starts)
22. Damien Woody (Jets) 6.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
22. Jeromey Clary (Chargers) 6.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
22. Jon Jansen (Redskins) 6.5 sacks allowed (11 starts)
25. Jon Runyan (Eagles) 7.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
25. Damion McIntosh (Chiefs) 7.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
27. Cornell Green (Raiders) 7.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
27. Alex Barron (Rams) 7.5 sacks allowed (15 starts)
29. Eric Winston (Texans) 8.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
30. Stacy Andrews (Bengals) 9.5 sacks allowed (15 starts)
31. Adam Snyder (49ers) 9.5 sacks allowed (13 starts)
32. Levi Brown (Cardinals) 11.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)

[dasaybz]

So since when is combining to give up 11.5 sacks good?

[psubills62]

So since when is combining to give up 11.5 sacks good?

Well if it's true, then it doesn't tell us how many sacks Peters gave up vs. Dockery. It's strange that Murphy said it like that, since it could mean that Peters gave up 1 sack and Dockery gave up 10.5...or vice versa.

Maybe there were a couple of sacks that could be split between them, but that's when you give 0.5 or 0.25 sacks per lineman.

I don't understand why Murphy would talk about it in terms of combined between the two.

[Goobylal]

Well, here's where it stood at week 17 of last year according to the official stats:

ranked 31st at LT (tied)... Jason Peters - 11.5 sacks allowed (13 starts)
ranked 32nd at LG... Derrick Dockery - 8.25 sacks allowed (16 starts)
ranked 8th at Center... Duke Preston - 0.75 sacks allowed (11 starts)
ranked 4th at RG (tied)... Brad Butler - 1.0 sacks allowed (13 starts)
ranked 8th at RT (tied) - Langston Walker - 3.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)

Add up these sacks allowed, and it only comes to 24.5. Apparently, the other 13.5 sacks were allowed by other players such as Fowler, etc., who did not play enough to make the list.
Fowler (5 starts) allowed 2 sacks. Chambers (4 starts) gave-up 2 sacks. Whittle (2 starts) gave up 1 sack. That accounts for all 80 starts by O-linemen. So that adds-up to 29.5 sacks given-up by the O-linemen, leaving the remaining 8.5 to the backs or elsewhere, which makes sense since the O-line doesn't always give-up sacks. So the "Peters and Dockery gave up 11.5 sacks" is wrong.

[justasportsfan]

http://blogs.wivb.com/category/news-4-buffalo-sports/

(yes, I know the link is in another thread, but this is specifically to discuss this "stat")

So, will you sheeple STOP blindly parroting this mantra that Peters gave up 11.5 or 13.5 sacks by himself last year?

It's a subjective stat open to interpretation by people who do NOT know what the coverage assignments were. It also doesn't correct for the sacks caused by Edwards and JP holding on to the ball for too long.

And in fairness, I have no way of knowing if Murphy is more accurate or if the other stat is more accurate, but the point remains that it is open to interpretation and NOT an objective fact.


Try thinking for yourselves instead of blindly repeating a subjective number to justify your pre-determined position.

Walker gave up 10.5 sacks as a raider all by himself.

[Ginger Vitis]

Interesting that Alan Faneca and Steve Hutchison perrennial pro bowlers and 2 of the highest paid LGs in football were in the bottom 5 in sacks given up for Left Guards

[feldspar]

So since when is combining to give up 11.5 sacks good?

It's not even true...

How about giving up two sacks which pretty much lost us two games...Miami safety and the Jets debacle?

How about having a guy that admits that he wasn't up to speed until week 6, after which we went 2-10?

[Dr. Lecter]

Well, here's where it stood at week 17 of last year according to the official stats:


These are NOT official stats. For a very good reason.

Peters could be blocking a guy and release him to the inside for Dockery to pick up. Or to the outside for the back to block. Or he could be blamed for an instance when there are 6 rushers and 5 blockers. Or the QB, while scrambling, runs into Peters man.

Any attempt by somebody to compile this info with knowledge of the play call and pass protection scheme is pointless.

[Dr. Lecter]

It's not even true...

How about giving up two sacks which pretty much lost us two games...Miami safety and the Jets debacle?

How about having a guy that admits that he wasn't up to speed until week 6, after which we went 2-10?

1. The Miami safety was Dockery. He released Porter to the inside so he could block an outside rusher.

2. The Jets rushed 6 and the Bills had 5 blockers (McIntyre was the intended receiver). He can't block two guys.

[psubills62]

These are NOT official stats. For a very good reason.

Peters could be blocking a guy and release him to the inside for Dockery to pick up. Or to the outside for the back to block. Or he could be blamed for an instance when there are 6 rushers and 5 blockers. Or the QB, while scrambling, runs into Peters man.

Any attempt by somebody to compile this info with knowledge of the play call and pass protection scheme is pointless.

They're not official stats, but they're the best anyone has. It's not like the person who made them conspired against Peters. It looks like their numbers for Dockery agree well with Buffalo's analysis of him, considering he was cut.

I would have to think that the person who made those stats watched a LOT of film and understands enough about the O-line to accurately decide who was responsible. Maybe he's a couple sacks off, but even so, 10 sacks is still terrible.

And the Jets may have rushed 6 with us only have 5 blockers...but if I remember correctly Peters didn't block anyone on that play.

[feldspar]

1. The Miami safety was Dockery. He released Porter to the inside so he could block an outside rusher.

2. The Jets rushed 6 and the Bills had 5 blockers (McIntyre was the intended receiver). He can't block two guys.

Your analysis is entirely special. Now tell me how the other 9.5 sacks weren't his fault at all and how he really allowed 0 sacks.

Then tell me that all 8 penalties against him were BS.

Then tell me how it is that other LTs can overcome a blitz.

Then open your eyes to the fact that Peters didn't really help the team all that much last year and is one of the most overrated players in the league.

[OpIv37]

Your analysis is entirely special. Now tell me how the other 9.5 sacks weren't his fault at all and how he really allowed 0 sacks.

Then tell me that all 8 penalties against him were BS.

Then tell me how it is that other LTs can overcome a blitz.

Then open your eyes to the fact that Peters didn't really help the team all that much last year and is one of the most overrated players in the league.

you'll see just how overrated he is when the Bills get their asses handed to them again this season.

[Dr. Lecter]

Your analysis is entirely special. Now tell me how the other 9.5 sacks weren't his fault at all and how he really allowed 0 sacks.

Then tell me that all 8 penalties against him were BS.

Then tell me how it is that other LTs can overcome a blitz.

Then open your eyes to the fact that Peters didn't really help the team all that much last year and is one of the most overrated players in the league.

Since I do not know what other sacks they are attributing to Peters, I can't say how many he gave up.

Peters is not perfect. He came into the season out of shape and it hurt him and the team. He definitely took too many penalties. He is also the most talented player on the team and was dominating at times last year. He absence also leaves the Bills with this starting O-line:

Bell (RT) - Butler (RG) - Hangartner (C) - Chambers (LG) - Walker (LT).

They can draft a guy, but that means they either have to pass on a top DE so they get one of the top 4 OTs or they take a lower ranked OT (i.e. Britton) who is likely not ready to start.

[feldspar]

These are NOT official stats. For a very good reason.

Peters could be blocking a guy and release him to the inside for Dockery to pick up. Or to the outside for the back to block. Or he could be blamed for an instance when there are 6 rushers and 5 blockers. Or the QB, while scrambling, runs into Peters man.

Any attempt by somebody to compile this info with knowledge of the play call and pass protection scheme is pointless.

Or Peters coming into Buffalo the week before the season starts can totally destroy the chemistry on the O-line. Who is supposed to pick up who? Well, we don't really know because old fat ass didn't show up so we can work it out beforehand...this holds especially more weight when we have a new offensive coordinator.

I love how everybody wants to take a total crap on Dockery and blame him for everything that went wrong on the left side of the line. The truth is that Peters probably made Dockery look bad as much as it was the other way around.

And the other things you describe happen to every single other LT in the league, so it's nothing exclusive to Peters. The same stats are applied the same way across the board for everyone. If you are dead-last on the list, it's for a reason. Maybe you can put him higher on the list if you want to nitpick every little detail, but you sure as hell can't put him near the top even if you do have a raging bias in his favor.

Not only all that, but the Buffalo Bills were 24th in the league as far as passing attempts last year. twenty-freakin'-fourth...yet Peters is STILL accredited as allowing more sacks than any other LT in the game after only starting 13 games. Think about THAT for a moment and consider the fact that there was another team that attempted 157 more passes than the Bills. Put that in your pipe and smoke it. As far as the stat system may be flawed, those flaws don't extend so far as to explain all of those things I just went through. Peters is not exempt.

Then you have to consider the man's character and/or intelligence and motivation. That certainly is a factor as well. Is he going to apply himself, or is he going to take the money and run?

[kernowboy]

Well based on that, I would sign Pete Kendall on a 2year deal to help bring forward the new LT whether it be a draft pick or Demetrius Bell.

He would provide some experienced leadership the team does lack on the line.

[yordad]

Try thinking for yourselves instead of blindly repeating a subjective number to justify your pre-determined position.Did you count the sacks? If not, didn't you just "blindly repeat"? If it is so hard to score a sack against an individual lineman, why is it not equally as hard to score it against 2 lineman?

[Bravo82]

looks like a major league whiff by peters to me....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IB-f6fNXafU

[guy]

http://blogs.wivb.com/category/news-4-buffalo-sports/

(yes, I know the link is in another thread, but this is specifically to discuss this "stat")

So, will you sheeple STOP blindly parroting this mantra that Peters gave up 11.5 or 13.5 sacks by himself last year?

It's a subjective stat open to interpretation by people who do NOT know what the coverage assignments were. It also doesn't correct for the sacks caused by Edwards and JP holding on to the ball for too long.

And in fairness, I have no way of knowing if Murphy is more accurate or if the other stat is more accurate, but the point remains that it is open to interpretation and NOT an objective fact.


Try thinking for yourselves instead of blindly repeating a subjective number to justify your pre-determined position. bottom line is that peters sucked last year and to call him a pro bowler by anyone is embarassing.

[acehole]

One of you smarty posters said that sacks fall on the qb....thier clock is broken remember. Peters is no longer needed with this system...end of story,...move along.
I think they can get the kid (OT)from CT with the 28th pick and have him start at RT....they can get the guard in the 3rd and the TE in the second.

First is an enigma.



That seems strange, since the Bills gave up more than 24 sacks in 2008. According to nfl.com, Edwards was sacked 23 times and Losman was sacked 15 times. Those sound like the numbers from 2007 (the total sack numbers, that is).

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&seasonType=REG&d-447263-o=1&conference=null&statisticCategory=PASSING&d-447263-s=PERSON_TEAMS.PERSONS.LAST_NAME&experience=null&d-447263-n=1&season=2008&qualified=false&tabSeq=0&d-447263-p=2

It seems like Murphy needs to study the film a little more and count the number of sacks again.

[Hamilton Billsfan]

this is one of the best threads EVER! .....very in depth.

[OpIv37]

Did you count the sacks? If not, didn't you just "blindly repeat"? If it is so hard to score a sack against an individual lineman, why is it not equally as hard to score it against 2 lineman?

no, I most certainly did not "blindly repeat" it because I NEVER used that number to prove my point.

I questioned it, I analyzed it and I showed how it contradicted other numbers, and you're right- it's equally hard to judge sacks against two linemen. And that's EXACTLY why I would NEVER use it to make a point. It's subjective.

Neither Murphy's number nor the other number are valid. We shouldn't be using either of them.

[OpIv37]

Or Peters coming into Buffalo the week before the season starts can totally destroy the chemistry on the O-line.

Can we please cut the "chemistry" argument too? The Bills are changing no less than 3 out of the 5 starters on the OL. Whatever chemistry was there is long gone and they have to start over.

[Jan Reimers]

Apparently giving up all of those sacks was a team effort by those two lard asses. I'm not sorry to see either of them go, since we have Chambers, Bell, McKinney and 9 draft picks to replace them.

[OpIv37]

Apparently giving up all of those sacks was a team effort by those two lard asses. I'm not sorry to see either of them go, since we have Chambers, Bell, McKinney and 9 draft picks to replace them.

Anyone who thinks Chambers, Bell or a draft pick can immediately come in and replace Peters is kidding themselves. This trade will HURT on the field this year.

[yordad]

no, I most certainly did not "blindly repeat" it because I NEVER used that number to prove my point.

I questioned it, I analyzed it and I showed how it contradicted other numbers, and you're right- it's equally hard to judge sacks against two linemen. And that's EXACTLY why I would NEVER use it to make a point. It's subjective.

Neither Murphy's number nor the other number are valid. We shouldn't be using either of them.Well, I watched every single sack and I counted them. It was 11.5 given up by Peters, and they were plan as day. :chuckle:

I don't know how much analyzing you did though, so I find that to be strange word selection.

[Jan Reimers]

Not only did the left side of our line give up a bunch of sacks, they were weak at run blocking as well. While we have certainly had other problems, we were 7-9 in consecutive years with Peters and Dockery manning the left side.

It's not as if we're breaking up a great O line.

[Syderick]

He let in more sacks then any of the DE's themselves sacked the QB combined!

[Goobylal]

Anyone who thinks Chambers, Bell or a draft pick can immediately come in and replace Peters is kidding themselves. This trade will HURT on the field this year.
Maybe not Peters from 2007, but 2008 won't be too hard to reproduce. At least Bell will participate in all off-season and pre-season activities.

[OpIv37]

Well, I watched every single sack and I counted them. It was 11.5 given up by Peters, and they were plan as day. :chuckle:

I don't know how much analyzing you did though, so I find that to be strange word selection.

So you knew the pass coverages and who Peters was supposed to block? How? Did you borrow Bill Bellicheck's headset? And you corrected for the times our CB's had tons of time but held the ball too long (which is, again, subjective)?

Sorry, but this stat is BS no matter who compiles it. Keep parroting it back- you'll see how meaningless it is in September.

[OpIv37]

Maybe not Peters from 2007, but 2008 won't be too hard to reproduce. At least Bell will participate in all off-season and pre-season activities.

What a relief, since attending off-season and pre-season is all a player needs to do to have talent.

[OpIv37]

Not only did the left side of our line give up a bunch of sacks, they were weak at run blocking as well. While we have certainly had other problems, we were 7-9 in consecutive years with Peters and Dockery manning the left side.

It's not as if we're breaking up a great O line.

Who do we have that's equal or better? Peters had an off year but he's not nearly as bad as many of you are making him sound, and he'll almost certainly rebound with a full off-season. Dockery blew. But even if Peters is as bad as you guys are making him sound, who do we have that's better? How has this OL been improved? The answer is that it hasn't. At the moment, it's worse on paper, and there are few if any players available who will even get us back to where we were last year, let alone improve.

We have unknowns blocking for an inexperienced QB who was shell shocked after a big-time hit last year. I really can't believe I have to argue with people that this is a HUGE problem.

[Goobylal]

What a relief, since attending off-season and pre-season is all a player needs to do to have talent.
Funny that without them, Peters struggled mightily last season. Your rebuttal?

[OpIv37]

Funny that without them, Peters struggled mightily last season. Your rebuttal?

Bell with a full pre-season last year couldn't unseat Peters or even Kirk Chambers. So, Peters with no pre season was still better than Bell with a full pre-season. Some players are just more talented than others.

[yordad]

So you knew the pass coverages and who Peters was supposed to block? How? Did you borrow Bill Bellicheck's headset? And you corrected for the times our CB's had tons of time but held the ball too long (which is, again, subjective)?

Sorry, but this stat is BS no matter who compiles it. Keep parroting it back- you'll see how meaningless it is in September.OK, maybe for you it is complicated. :idunno: All I know is, when Peters ducks his head and whiffs a guy, or is lunging at air, and the dude he missed gets a sack or causes a game changing fumble, then yeah- I can determine who to attribute the sack to. It isn't rocket science.

Either way, I don't need a stat on this one. Dude was an unmotivated, under-prepared, injury prone, whiny, sucky, cancerous, sack giving-upper player. And, I just came up with a scale and invented a stat, cuz he gets a 10 out of 10 in that category. It is kind of like the opposite of a passer rating, but not.

And, I don't get it, why did you quote John Murphy, and then call my words "parroting"?

[OpIv37]

OK, maybe for you it is complicated. :idunno: All I know is, when Peters ducks his head and whiffs a guy, or is lunging at air, and the dude he missed gets a sack or causes a game changing fumble, then yeah- I can determine who to attribute the sack to. It isn't rocket science.

Either way, I don't need a stat on this one. Dude was an unmotivated, under-prepared, injury prone, whiny, sucky, cancerous, sack giving-upper player. And, I just came up with a scale and invented a stat, cuz he gets a 10 out of 10 in that category. It is kind of like the opposite of a passer rating, but not.

And, I don't get it, why did you quote John Murphy, and then call my words "parroting"?

I mentioned the stat ONCE for a discussion of that stat and NEVER used it in an argument, and I actually THOUGHT about what it meant and the implications. You and some of the other blind homers are using that stupid stat ad nauseum, without ever thinking about how it was compiled and what it actually means. That's parroting.

And go on and think that way about Peters, but you're flat out wrong. Wait and see where the Bills finish vs where the Eagles finish- just wait and see.

[Goobylal]

Bell with a full pre-season last year couldn't unseat Peters or even Kirk Chambers. So, Peters with no pre season was still better than Bell with a full pre-season. Some players are just more talented than others.
Peters, despite a full off- and pre-season in 2005, couldn't beat out Mike Williams for the starting RT job until the 7th game of the season. And that was his 2nd season, not rookie year like with Bell last year.

Bell has talent. He's got excellent size, feet, and wingspan. Moreover he has professional athlete bloodline. He needed to add strength, which he reportedly did over the past year, and needs experience, like Peters did.

[OpIv37]

Peters, despite a full off- and pre-season in 2005, couldn't beat out Mike Williams for the starting RT job until the 7th game of the season. And that was his 2nd season, not rookie year like with Bell last year.

Bell has talent. He's got excellent size, feet, and wingspan. Moreover he has professional athlete bloodline. He needed to add strength, which he reportedly did over the past year, and needs experience, like Peters did.

Well, how many hits will Edwards take- and how many games will we lose- while he gets experience? The Bills were 5-11 in 2005.

[Goobylal]

I mentioned the stat ONCE for a discussion of that stat and NEVER used it in an argument, and I actually THOUGHT about what it meant and the implications. You and some of the other blind homers are using that stupid stat ad nauseum, without ever thinking about how it was compiled and what it actually means. That's parroting.

And go on and think that way about Peters, but you're flat out wrong. Wait and see where the Bills finish vs where the Eagles finish- just wait and see.
The sacks-given-up stat was compiled by STATS, Inc., which is the official stat-keeper of the NFL. The NFL.com site uses them, as does ESPN.

[Goobylal]

Well, how many hits will Edwards take- and how many games will we lose- while he gets experience? The Bills were 5-11 in 2005.
I don't know. I don't have a crystal ball. He may take more than last year, he may take less.

[OpIv37]

The sacks-given-up stat was compiled by STATS, Inc., which is the official stat-keeper of the NFL. The NFL.com site uses them, as does ESPN.

they're not an official stat, and never will be because it's too subjective.

[OpIv37]

I don't know. I don't have a crystal ball. He may take more than last year, he may take less.

right, but as of right now, what have you seen from Bell to make you think he's better than Peters? Unless you had VIP access to last year's training camp, the answer is nothing. Seriously. we're talking about an inexperienced OL protecting an inexperienced QB. Again, I can't even believe I have to argue that this is a problem.

[yordad]

I mentioned the stat ONCE for a discussion of that stat and NEVER used it in an argument, and I actually THOUGHT about what it meant and the implications. You and some of the other blind homers are using that stupid stat ad nauseum, without ever thinking about how it was compiled and what it actually means. That's parroting.

And go on and think that way about Peters, but you're flat out wrong. Wait and see where the Bills finish vs where the Eagles finish- just wait and see.Go compile a little stat vid then. Until then, your being a straight hypocrite. You never quoted a stat? Somebody, somewhere counted these sacks. For all you know, I counted them.

And, to call me a blind homer is laughable. Although I am not as jaded as you, I am far from a blind homer, I see holes all over. Not to mention, I didn't use your stat to form my opinion on the guy, I used mine. He got a 10 on the doushameter.

[OpIv37]

Go compile a little stat vid then. Until then, your being a straight hypocrite. You never quoted a stat? Somebody, somewhere counted these sacks. For all you know, I counted them.

And, to call me a blind homer is laughable. Although I am not as jaded as you, I am far from a blind homer, I see holes all over. Not to mention, I didn't use your stat to form my opinion on the guy, I used mine. He got a 10 on the doushameter.

I never said I didn't quote the stat. I said I DIDN'T USE THE STAT IN MY ARGUMENT. The stat is BS if you did it or if John Murphy did it or if Stats, Inc. did it. The only reason I used it was to show the subjectivity of it- different people come up with different numbers, and it is unrealistic to base so much of your assessment of Peters on a subjective stat.

I'll agree with your doushameter stat- the guy is definitely a complete douche. But, he's still a damn good football player. We can do without his attitude- I'm not so sure we can do without his talent.

[feldspar]

Can we please cut the "chemistry" argument too? The Bills are changing no less than 3 out of the 5 starters on the OL. Whatever chemistry was there is long gone and they have to start over.

No I don't think that we can eliminate the "chemistry" argument when we are talking about Peters and last season. We had a new offensive coordinator, and Peters didn't show up until the week before the first regular season game. There were different schemes going on since last we've seen fat boy, and a lot of miscommunication was going on since Peters doesn't know what Dockery knows, and nobody knows what the hell Peters knows...the guy is not the sharpest tool in the shed. Peters and Dockery, who was affected most by Peter's lack of participation, had absolutely zero chance to get on the same page, let alone work out some of the kinks.

At least this year we are bound to have the line set months in advance of the regular season. The lineman can go to meetings together, learn exactly what it is they want to do, and get a feel for each other in the offense that we are trying to create. Practice, mini-camp, preseason...or just talking and being around each other. What you don't do is show up at the last second and hope to catch up.

Who picks up who? What are we looking out for? What is my assignment in a particular situation? What should I expect the guy next to me to be doing? Can I depend on him? What's he thinking?

Stick a bunch of guys together for a couple of few months, and they will be a lot further along with the chemistry issue than Peters was when he finally decided to grace us with his presence.

[OpIv37]

No I don't think that we can eliminate the "chemistry" argument when we are talking about Peters and last season. We had a new offensive coordinator, and Peters didn't show up until the week before the first regular season game. There were different schemes going on since last we've seen fat boy, and a lot of miscommunication was going on since Peters doesn't know what Dockery knows, and nobody knows what the hell Peters knows...the guy is not the sharpest tool in the shed. Peters and Dockery, who was affected most by Peter's lack of participation, had absolutely zero chance to get on the same page, let alone work out some of the kinks.

At least this year we are bound to have the line set months in advance of the regular season. The lineman can go to meetings together, learn exactly what it is they want to do, and get a feel for each other in the offense that we are trying to create. Practice, mini-camp, preseason...or just talking and being around each other. What you don't do is show up at the last second and hope to catch up.

Who picks up who? What are we looking out for? What is my assignment in a particular situation? What should I expect the guy next to me to be doing? Can I depend on him? What's he thinking?

Stick a bunch of guys together for a couple of few months, and they will be a lot further along with the chemistry issue than Peters was when he finally decided to grace us with his presence.

But Peters, Dock and the other 3 starters had the entire 2007 season plus the 2007 preseason together. And even though Turk was a new offensive coordinator, he was in Buffalo before and didn't make an extreme amount of changes. I really don't think Peters' holdout could completely undo a full season of chemistry.

[feldspar]

But Peters, Dock and the other 3 starters had the entire 2007 season plus the 2007 preseason together. And even though Turk was a new offensive coordinator, he was in Buffalo before and didn't make an extreme amount of changes. I really don't think Peters' holdout could completely undo a full season of chemistry.

Things don't stay the exact same for very long, dude. Jim McNally, the Bills offensive line coach and the ONLY coach Peters had EVER worked with at his position, retired in January of 2008. Don't you think that there was a big difference with him not being there? So we have a new offensive coordinator and a new offensive line coach. Different things are being said.

Not only that, but you don't see a guy for eight months, and you can't expect to get on the same page with him right away. That's why the team has a MANDATORY program for players to go though. Why don't we all just meet up on September 12th this year and see how that goes. Hell, we already all know everything.

[Goobylal]

they're not an official stat, and never will be because it's too subjective.
All the sacks given-up by O-lineman who started for the Bills last year when added together don't equal to 38, which is the number of sacks taken by Edwards and Losman. The difference is the "subjective" sacks.

[Goobylal]

right, but as of right now, what have you seen from Bell to make you think he's better than Peters? Unless you had VIP access to last year's training camp, the answer is nothing. Seriously. we're talking about an inexperienced OL protecting an inexperienced QB. Again, I can't even believe I have to argue that this is a problem.
Better than Peters of which season: 2007 or 2008? It's hard to envision Bell giving-up more than 11.5 sacks. Because at some point, the Bills would put a TE over on his side to help out with blocking.

I never said he'd be better than Peters of 2007. At least not this year.