The Bills Offensive Line

[Ingtar33]

ok.

Now, Jason Peters probably didn't want to play in buffalo. I won't even argue over that issue...

It's done, he's gone, and we're forced to look at this as our o-line.

LT - Demetrius Bell
LG - Kirk Chambers, Seth McKinney
C - Geoff Hangartner, Marvin Philip
RG - Brad Butler, Brandon Rodd
RT - Langston Walker, Jonathan Scott, Chris Denman

Now... we can argue about how the Bills will shuffle the players. It's possible Walker will go to LT, though i think it's more likely that Chambers will move outside, and it will be either Chambers or Bell at LT.

considering we signed McKinney a week or two ago, i think that signing was in anticipation of the Peter's trade, and we'll see chambers move to LT

that leaves us with a line that will probably look like this...

LT - Bell/Chambers
LG - McKinney
C - Hangartner
RG - Butler (the oft injured)
RT - Walker

Now, I'll be serious. Hangartner may or may not be an upgrade over our Fowler/Preston travesty, in reality we might see Hangartner and McKinney flip positions before the end of training camp (as i recall him being a somewhat acceptable center)...

But lets say the line above is what we end up with going into the season. We just got much worse on the line. Dockery and Peters were downright putrid last year. But they were light years better then the duo we'll be sporting on our QB's blindside this year. Throw in the fact we'll be sporting an unknown at C, and you can't say this looks like a good line.

I'd say there is now room for 3 to 4 draftpicks on that line. LT, LG, C, RG... the lone part of the line that's really NFL quality is Walker.

[Kenny]

It'd be interesting to see how the Bills grade Bell vs. starting any of the available rookie tackles not named Jason Smith, Eugene Monroe, Michael Oher or Andre Smith.

Im starting to warm up with giving Bell a chance this year. I dont think he'd be any worse then starting another rookie... and if it doesnt work out, maybe we get a chance @ Okung next year?

[Goobylal]

Butler was less injured than Peters the past 2 years. Hangartner will be a huge upgrade over Preston/Fowler. It's amazing how many Panthers fans have good things to say about him, versus the other chumps the Bills signed like Bennie Anderson, Tutan Reyes, and even Melvin Fowler. McKinney can do no worse than the nothing that Dockery provided the past 2 years. So that leaves LT. It will probably come down to Chambers, Bell, a rookie, or as a last resort, flipping Walker over there.

[Ingtar33]

It'd be interesting to see how the Bills grade Bell vs. starting any of the available rookie tackles not named Jason Smith, Eugene Monroe, Michael Oher or Andre Smith.

Im starting to warm up with giving Bell a chance this year. I dont think he'd be any worse then starting another rookie... and if it doesnt work out, maybe we get a chance @ Okung next year?


If i am the Bills GM, and i say those words to Ralph Wilson i'd deserve to be fired. You don't go into an NFL season with question marks on your line unless you plan on missing the offseason.

If they're thinking like this, they deserve the 4-12 record to follow.

But then the lack of attention to the O-line is whats killed this team for a decade.

[psubills62]

ok.

Now, Jason Peters probably didn't want to play in buffalo. I won't even argue over that issue...

It's done, he's gone, and we're forced to look at this as our o-line.

LT - Demetrius Bell
LG - Kirk Chambers, Seth McKinney
C - Geoff Hangartner, Marvin Philip
RG - Brad Butler, Brandon Rodd
RT - Langston Walker, Jonathan Scott, Chris Denman

Now... we can argue about how the Bills will shuffle the players. It's possible Walker will go to LT, though i think it's more likely that Chambers will move outside, and it will be either Chambers or Bell at LT.

considering we signed McKinney a week or two ago, i think that signing was in anticipation of the Peter's trade, and we'll see chambers move to LT

that leaves us with a line that will probably look like this...

LT - Bell/Chambers
LG - McKinney
C - Hangartner
RG - Butler (the oft injured)
RT - Walker

Now, I'll be serious. Hangartner may or may not be an upgrade over our Fowler/Preston travesty, in reality we might see Hangartner and McKinney flip positions before the end of training camp (as i recall him being a somewhat acceptable center)...

But lets say the line above is what we end up with going into the season. We just got much worse on the line. Dockery and Peters were downright putrid last year. But they were light years better then the duo we'll be sporting on our QB's blindside this year. Throw in the fact we'll be sporting an unknown at C, and you can't say this looks like a good line.

I'd say there is now room for 3 to 4 draftpicks on that line. LT, LG, C, RG... the lone part of the line that's really NFL quality is Walker.

In that case, I'd say you have a high standard of "NFL quality." I doubt that Bell is quite ready to start, especially on the left side. I believe Chambers would be adequate there, but we should try to upgrade if possible.

McKinney was a decent starter at OG, and Hangartner has shown no reason to think he'll suck.

None of those guys will be Pro-Bowl players, but they're not exactly third-string guys. It would be easy enough to upgrade the LG spot and our depth in the draft. I just don't think people realize how bad Fowler/Preston and Dockery were last year. Peters wasn't exactly in top form either. I also think part of the problem was penalties last year. If we can get guys who don't take penalties...I remember Dockery taking several and Peters I believe was reported taking eight penalties. Penalties are almost as bad as a sack.

[SeatownBillsFan21]

Dont see Bell as a starter YET looks like Chambers or a draft pick.

[Ingtar33]

Butler was less injured than Peters the past 2 years. Hangartner will be a huge upgrade over Preston/Fowler. It's amazing how many Panthers fans have good things to say about him, versus the other chumps the Bills signed like Bennie Anderson, Tutan Reyes, and even Melvin Fowler. McKinney can do no worse than the nothing that Dockery provided the past 2 years. So that leaves LT. It will probably come down to Chambers, Bell, a rookie, or as a last resort, flipping Walker over there.

Butler missed 3 games last season, and he missed parts of 4 other games with injuries.

I'm sorry but your enthusiasm over Hangartner i think is widely misplaced. I never saw anything out of him to say he's more then a Fowler or Preston. I hope I'm wrong on that.

And if your standard is that the swap of Dockery to McKinney is a draw, does nothing for our future. The McKinney i saw last year was not a good player. Not a terrible one. but definitely something you replace at the earliest convenience. That's what we have on our o-line already with Butler.

[Kenny]

If i am the Bills GM, and i say those words to Ralph Wilson i'd deserve to be fired. You don't go into an NFL season with question marks on your line unless you plan on missing the offseason.

If they're thinking like this, they deserve the 4-12 record to follow.

But then the lack of attention to the O-line is whats killed this team for a decade.

The way I see it, our offense is probably going to hurt this season, regardless of whether we go with Bell or a rookie (since the elite prospects are probably gone @ 11). Why not see what Bell has?

But... we have a chance to really solidify our defense.
In a perfect situation, I'd love to see Raji drop to #11, and then go for best DE @ 28.

[Ingtar33]

In that case, I'd say you have a high standard of "NFL quality." I doubt that Bell is quite ready to start, especially on the left side. I believe Chambers would be adequate there, but we should try to upgrade if possible.

McKinney was a decent starter at OG, and Hangartner has shown no reason to think he'll suck.

None of those guys will be Pro-Bowl players, but they're not exactly third-string guys. It would be easy enough to upgrade the LG spot and our depth in the draft. I just don't think people realize how bad Fowler/Preston and Dockery were last year. Peters wasn't exactly in top form either. I also think part of the problem was penalties last year. If we can get guys who don't take penalties...I remember Dockery taking several and Peters I believe was reported taking eight penalties. Penalties are almost as bad as a sack.

we're talking about a line full of castoffs and round 5 or lower draftpicks... most of whom were cast aside by their previous team, in some cases "teams". Butler starts on this team, not because he's good, but because there is no one better.

Our line has had a massive hole in it between the tackles for a while. i include butler with that.

[psubills62]

we're talking about a line full of castoffs and round 5 or lower draftpicks... most of whom were cast aside by their previous team, in some cases "teams". Butler starts on this team, not because he's good, but because there is no one better.

Our line has had a massive hole in it between the tackles for a while. i include butler with that.

Walker wasn't cast off. Hangartner wasn't cast off (it was reported that they wanted him back, but didn't have the financial means/cap room). Bell wasn't cast off. Butler wasn't a cast off. Chambers has played well at tackle when given the chance. You really trust decisions made by his former team, Cleveland? If you're assuming that they're spot on with their personnel decisions, then I'm glad you're not in our FO.

I get a little bothered that the Bills don't use higher picks on the lines, but wasn't Peters undrafted? Bell's a similar prospect - raw, but extremely athletic. I don't think it's fair to him to not even give him a chance when the camps haven't even started. I'm not saying Bell will be the next Peters, but why not give him a chance to see what he can do at OT?

Butler's a good player. The injuries are a bit of a concern, but that's why we can draft depth, and possibly a starter at LG.

[BillsWin]

ok.

Now, Jason Peters probably didn't want to play in buffalo. I won't even argue over that issue...

It's done, he's gone, and we're forced to look at this as our o-line.

LT - Demetrius Bell
LG - Kirk Chambers, Seth McKinney
C - Geoff Hangartner, Marvin Philip
RG - Brad Butler, Brandon Rodd
RT - Langston Walker, Jonathan Scott, Chris Denman

Now... we can argue about how the Bills will shuffle the players. It's possible Walker will go to LT, though i think it's more likely that Chambers will move outside, and it will be either Chambers or Bell at LT.

considering we signed McKinney a week or two ago, i think that signing was in anticipation of the Peter's trade, and we'll see chambers move to LT

that leaves us with a line that will probably look like this...

LT - Bell/Chambers
LG - McKinney
C - Hangartner
RG - Butler (the oft injured)
RT - Walker

Now, I'll be serious. Hangartner may or may not be an upgrade over our Fowler/Preston travesty, in reality we might see Hangartner and McKinney flip positions before the end of training camp (as i recall him being a somewhat acceptable center)...

But lets say the line above is what we end up with going into the season. We just got much worse on the line. Dockery and Peters were downright putrid last year. But they were light years better then the duo we'll be sporting on our QB's blindside this year. Throw in the fact we'll be sporting an unknown at C, and you can't say this looks like a good line.

I'd say there is now room for 3 to 4 draftpicks on that line. LT, LG, C, RG... the lone part of the line that's really NFL quality is Walker.

Butler is one of the bright spots on the line as well. he returned to the lineup and our running game took off.

[BillsWin]

and watch film on Butler. he can play.

[Ingtar33]

and watch film on Butler. he can play.

I'm not seeing it. and i have.

he's a disaster in short yardage run blocking.

[BADTHINGSMAN]

Butler was less injured than Peters the past 2 years. Hangartner will be a huge upgrade over Preston/Fowler. It's amazing how many Panthers fans have good things to say about him, versus the other chumps the Bills signed like Bennie Anderson, Tutan Reyes, and even Melvin Fowler. McKinney can do no worse than the nothing that Dockery provided the past 2 years. So that leaves LT. It will probably come down to Chambers, Bell, a rookie, or as a last resort, flipping Walker over there.

Ive talked to a bunch of Panther fans that are ticked they didnt keep Hangartner. So Im hoping he will be a suprise and play well.

[Michael82]

I usually agree with what you say, Ingtar...but I think you are wrong about Butler. He's actually a pretty good player and one of the only bright spots on our OL. Both Butler and Walker are a solid Right side and part of the reason our backs were so successful running on the right side.

[kernowboy]

Yes, the dissing of Hangartner is ridiculous. The only reason the Panthers didn't resign him is the massive money they are going to be paying Jordan Gross, and Julius Peppers.

Hangartner was at least as good as their LG Wharton and their C Kalil, but they are under contract and Hangartner wasn't.

And how many interior linemen have be taken in Round5 or lower and won the SuperBowl - Tom Nalen, Dan Koppen, Shaun O'Hara, Justin Hartwig etc

and lets also not forget that the Giants won against the Pats with David Diehl at LT who was a fifth round LG selection.

[LifetimeBillsFan]

It'd be interesting to see how the Bills grade Bell vs. starting any of the available rookie tackles not named Jason Smith, Eugene Monroe, Michael Oher or Andre Smith.

Im starting to warm up with giving Bell a chance this year. I dont think he'd be any worse then starting another rookie....

Very good point!!!

Why is everyone so down on the possibility of Bell starting at LT at some point this season?

OK. Yes Bell was a raw, inexperienced rookie who needed to get a lot stronger last preseason. Coming out of D-II (where he dominated, incidently) into the NFL, Bell's techniques were pretty primitive and far from polished. He certainly was not ready to play in the NFL, let alone start. No doubt about it.

But, the guy just spent an entire year working every day against NFL players with NFL coaches and NFL trainers. He's a bright guy--who actually graduated from college, unlike many others in the NFL--so don't you think that perhaps he may have learned something during the course of this past year?

Coming out of college Bell was considered to be a classic "sleeper": an athletically-gifted, relatively inexperienced, raw, small school developmental prospect, a potential "diamond-in-the-rough". A tall, former basketball player who didn't play high school football, with quick feet for his size, who played at a D-II school and needed to add weight and strength as well as work on his techniques.

Typically guys like that don't make it out of training camp without being cut unless they really show the coaches something. If they do, 99% of the time they end up on the practice squad for a year or two while they develop. The coaches have to think that a guy like this is pretty special for him to make the 53 man roster--NFL coaches generally don't like to give one of these roster spots to a guy that they don't think is going to be able to help the team at some point.

Consider this: the Bills kept Bell on the 53 man roster for all 16 games last season even though they didn't activate him for a single game--despite the fact that they had injuries and needed roster space at times. Now, why would they do that for a raw, inexperienced, D-II developmental prospect? They had to like him an awful lot and be afraid that they would lose him if they put him on the PS!

Now, I know that Tom Modrak's word doesn't mean much to some people here, but, during his interview on BB.com before The Combine, Modrak said that Bell worked and improved a lot last season and the coaches were very pleased with his development. He said that Bell would "see the field" this season--a clear indication that Bell had at least progressed enough to be ready to play this coming season. Whether as a reserve or as a starter, he did not say one way or the other, but it is an indication that Bell has improved from where he was when he was drafted.

Now, when we hear that Bell is "athletically-gifted", don't forget that he has what scouts in many sports refer to as "good blood-lines": his father is Karl Malone and his half-sister is a star in the WNBA. I fully realize that just because a parent is a great athlete it doesn't mean that the child will be as well, but there is a reason why you do see a lot of pro athletes who have fathers, mothers, aunts, uncles, sisters, brothers, etc. who were also pretty good athletes, sometimes even in other sports (ie everyone mentions that C.Matthews, LB, USC, has a father and uncle who played in the NFL). While it may not mean that he is a cinch to make it in the NFL, it is something that Bell does have going for him. And, incidently, his father was a pretty raw player from a small school when he first entered the NBA and it took him a year or two to develop into the dominant player that he became during his career.

So, what makes it so impossible for Bell possibly be on the verge of developing into a pretty good NFL player?

OK, it's true that Bell doesn't have any NFL game experience. Well, how is he supposed to get any if he doesn't play? And, what makes him any different in this regard from a rookie OT that the Bills might take in the draft? Even if the Bills were to draft the best LT prospect in this draft, guess what...he wouldn't have any NFL playing experience either!

Oh, but Jason Smith and Andre Smith and Mike Oher played against top level college competition you say. Well, Demetrius Bell just spent a year going up against NFL level players every day in practice.

At this point only the Bills' coaches know whether Bell is ready to step in and start at LT for the team this season. It is possible that he might be. It is also possible that they may feel that he will never be (although I don't think that they would have kept him on the team or that the Bills would have handled the Peters situation as they did if this were the case).

I can see the Bills possibly trying to ease Bell into the starting LT job by either giving him significant playing time behind Chambers and Walker for the first half of the season as a substitute or having him start at RT until the bye week, which just happens to fall at the mid-point of their season.

I can also see where, if they feel that he has really developed a lot and is ready, the Bills might start the season with Bell at LT, knowing that they could move Chambers in to spell him or take over for him if he should struggle. This might be easier for them to do if they have Chambers starting at LG and draft an interior offensive lineman early on in the draft. It is a lot easier for a rookie to step in and play at OG than it is for a rookie to step in at either OT position--and the Bills are likely to get a better C/OG prospect at # 28 or in the second round than the OT prospects that will be available then.

It's true that Bell isn't likely to step into the starting lineup at LT and give the Bills the kind of All Pro quality play that they got from Jason Peters in 2007. But, then again, they are not going to get a rookie LT at # 11 or at # 28 in this draft that is going to be able to step in and give them that level of play either. And there is a fair chance that they would have gotten that level of play from Jason Peters, either (although he may feel motivated to play at that level this season for Philly--unless one of the top rookie OTs in this draft ends up getting a bigger contract than his....).

If the Bills don't get a top LT prospect with the 11th pick in the draft--and they probably all will be gone by then--they are not likely to get an OT in this draft that is any more talented or ready to step in and play this season than Demetrius Bell. Oher still has to work on his techniques. Britten is a RT who will take at least a year to develop into a player who can play LT. Beatty still needs to develop and may not be as athletic as Bell. Etc.

IMHO the Bills knew that they might have a problem satisfying Peters last year and they drafted Bell, who has a lot of similarities to Peters, as a player that they could develop into a potential replacement for Peters. I think they wanted to keep Peters if they could, at the right price, but were prepared to move him before the draft (otherwise, why not wait?) because they have Bell and think that he is on the verge of being ready to play.

If that is the case, why not give Bell the opportunity to play and get the experience that he presently lacks. If he plays as poorly as Peters did last year, they can move Chambers (or Walker) in at LT. If he gives them average to above average play at the position, they will be better off than they were last season and would be if they had kept an unhappy Peters.

I could be very wrong, but I think that Bell is ultimately going to be their starting LT. He may not start at the beginning of the season. He may not start at LT initially if he does start at the beginning of the season. He may not start until mid-season or later. But, eventually, I think that he is the guy that they are grooming to be their starting LT and he will end up being the starter.

[SABURZFAN]

the Bills OL is pathetic no matter how you look at it. you can't make chicken salad out of chicken **** no matter how much mayo you put in it.

[Ickybaluky]

Hangartner was at least as good as their LG Wharton and their C Kalil, but they are under contract and Hangartner wasn't.

No he isn't. Those guys are very good players, and if was better than them he would have played over them.

He had opportunities to start in Carolina and lost competitions. He was a backup on their team. Last year, 4/5ths of the Panthers line was set in training camp (Gross, Wharton, Kalil, Otah). Hangartner and Keydrick Vincent battled for the last spot and Vincent won the job.

Hangartner ended up starting half the season due to injury, but if he was better than the other guys coming out of camp he would have played over them.

[justasportsfan]

You really trust decisions made by his former team, Cleveland? If you're assuming that they're spot on with their personnel decisions, then I'm glad you're not in our FO.

.
the browns' O has been better than our O in recent years in case you forgot that. 25th offensively is the best this staff has ever produced since dick and co. have been here. In case you missed it, they beat us with pratically a rookie at qb last year





I get a little bothered that the Bills don't use higher picks on the lines, but wasn't Peters undrafted? Bell's a similar prospect - raw, but extremely athletic. I don't think it's fair to him to not even give him a chance when the camps haven't even started. I'm not saying Bell will be the next Peters, but why not give him a chance to see what he can do at OT?

Butler's a good player. The injuries are a bit of a concern, but that's why we can draft depth, and possibly a starter at LG. The guy responsible for developing Peters is gone. McNally's replacement hasn't developed anyone yet and if you are using Butler as an example, how many years has it been ? Butler is nothing more than a potential. I don't think we can just grab anyone in the laater rounds and turn him into a starer when season starts.

[Nighthawk]

the browns' O has been better than our O in recent years in case you forgot that.

Very true. Listen, do I hate losing a very good LT...yes, however, this OL wasn't exactly one of the best in the NFL, so I'm willing to see how it shakes out next year before killing this organization for trading Peters away.

[justasportsfan]

Very true. Listen, do I hate losing a very good LT...yes, however, this OL wasn't exactly one of the best in the NFL, so I'm willing to see how it shakes out next year before killing this organization for trading Peters away.

I wasn't happy either but psubills can't question the browns personnel moves offensively and pretend that a browns cast off moved to a team that made better personnel decisions over the years . He moved to a team that keeps making one mistake after another.

Unfortunately I'm done giving this staff a chance. 3 years is more than enough time and we didn't even make .500 especially when you consider the turn around time the fins needed in making playoffs. 1 year.

[Ingtar33]

I understand some of the posts here in this thread. They aren't surprising, as we're all Bills fans. Hope is the food we feed on season after season.

But i think some of you are missing the big picture.

we replaced the blind side of our QB's line with... what ammounts to nothing. McKinney is about equal to Butler, a much better run blocker, a much worse pass blocker. Chambers was helped a lot when he played last season for Peters. In reality he has bad hands, and pretty good feet.

Hangartner, from what i've seen probably will be a very slight upgrade over Preston (and a drastic upgrade over Fowler), if only because he's a better run blocker (it would have been hard to be worse). So what are we talking about... we're talking about an O-line, which was terrible last year (our running game got it's yards despite the o-line, not because of it), it's pass blocking was pretty poor for long stretches as well, but Edwards helped cover a lot of that up.

The line couldn't get to the 2nd level in run blocking, they couldn't screen block particularly well. In short we had a very bad o-line, with some talented players around it making it look better.

-Yes, there were games when the pass blocking was steller. And there were stretches when the run blocking was passable.



So we're looking at latteral moves (as a best case), possibly we got a bit better run blocking at a vast decrease in our pass blocking. but we're talking about going from a C- in run blocking to a C+... or a C+ in pass blocking down to a C-... either way it's not a good line. And it's certainly not a line you go to the playoffs with.

I think you're misunderstanding my main point. i wasn't arguing that the moves the bills made to date were bad per say. From a salary cap perspective they were alright. Possibly from a locker room perspective they were ideal.

I was saying this O-line has holes up and down it, it had them last year... and it still has them. They're rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic... and that's true only if you believe chambers/bell isn't a huge dropoff from Peters.

I happen to believe they are. So we have a line, with 4 NFL quality backups starting, and 1 NFL quality RT. Last year, though 2 didn't play like it, we were sporting 3 nfl starting quality players, and 2 backups.

My point is, we're looking at an ugly line. with 3 new starters. I would like to see the Bills spend both their first round picks on the o-line. Or at least one of them, with the other going to the D-line, and our 2nd going to the o-line. In short, i want to see 2 of our top 3 picks going to the o-line.

Anything less will be inviting disaster, not just for this season, but for the next 3 or 4

[SABURZFAN]

the Bills OL not only looks terrible for starters but there is no quality backup either. they need to draft a couple of guys to improve this.

[Night Train]

Let's check back on this in a month, after the draft is complete and some higher priced Vets are cut after their replacements are drafted.

We could easily have 2-4 more faces in the mix.

[colin]

ingtar, i respect your opinion and have some Qs.

1. you make it sound like we have taken a step down or sideways on our line(changing a plus to a minus and a minus to a plus on our pass and run grades), but ditched a top 5 paid LG and a top paid LT. given that we can sign and draft guys, that isn't a bad move at all.

2. do you think this will cost us games this season? what if we sign a jon runyon or someone and maybe draft a day 1 interior blocker? we'd have

LT walker
LG quality rook/roster guy
C Rook/hangartner
RG butler
RT Runyon

is that line actually worse than what we had? peters had some great plays, but those are offset but horrible game losing sacks ( jp vs the jets, one on in miami vs porter for a safety).

3. how would you grade out the bills line going into last year? the zona line going into last year (with gandy they guy everyone hated)? the giants line 2 years ago?

it is my thought that olines and lt in particular have gone from under valued to over valued in the nfl. left tackles are expensive because the position is just too hard to find a guy to fill. they don't make plays, but mistakes by them cost.

an oline that plays together well, plays hard and does enough is a huge asset (zona, new england). you don't need 10 mill a year guys all over the line, just a stud or two and hard smart players.

we may spend 2 day one picks on the oline, maybe 3 overall picks this year. so i don't see how that makes us worse than we would be 4 years ahead.

this could all blow up in our faces, but if we are standing pat saving money, adding picks, and going into the draft, is that a bad thing really?

[psubills62]

I wasn't happy either but psubills can't question the browns personnel moves offensively and pretend that a browns cast off moved to a team that made better personnel decisions over the years . He moved to a team that keeps making one mistake after another.

Unfortunately I'm done giving this staff a chance. 3 years is more than enough time and we didn't even make .500 especially when you consider the turn around time the fins needed in making playoffs. 1 year.

Just because the Browns' coaches got a better offense out of their players doesn't mean that they've made some great personnel decisions. Have the Bills made poor personnel decisions? Sure. But when I see Chambers doing well against good pass-rushing teams, I have to think "gee, maybe the Browns didn't know what they were doing." And I think the fact that the Browns routinely have a top 8 draft pick (except for one fluke year) certainly doesn't hurt my argument.

You say McNally's replacement hasn't developed anyone yet? Gee, I didn't realize you were only giving him ONE YEAR to develop a Pro-Bowler. While you may not trust Buffalo's personnel decisions, they are pretty high on how far Bell has come. Maybe McNally would have turned him into a Pro-Bowler at this point, but maybe Bell has actually done well to this point, thanks to McNally's replacement.

[THATHURMANATOR]

I have a feeling they will move Walker to LT.

[HHURRICANE]

No he isn't. Those guys are very good players, and if was better than them he would have played over them.

He had opportunities to start in Carolina and lost competitions. He was a backup on their team. Last year, 4/5ths of the Panthers line was set in training camp (Gross, Wharton, Kalil, Otah). Hangartner and Keydrick Vincent battled for the last spot and Vincent won the job.

Hangartner ended up starting half the season due to injury, but if he was better than the other guys coming out of camp he would have played over them.

No, he's a Bill now so he's great.

Funny how people are trying to see the positive of a Bell-Chambers-Hangartner-Butler-Walker o-line.

I think we win three games this year.

At the end of the season i thought we would upgrade our center and maybe our LG.

Now we have 3 new starters on our line. What a joke.

[TigerJ]

Bell is very much an enigma outside of the Bills organization. He was a very athletic raw kid when they drafted him. Since he had virtually zero playing time in the regular season, we really have no way of knowing how far he may have progressed. I do not expect that he is ready to be a starting NFL left tackle, but who really knows? We also have little to go on as far as Kirk Chambers playing inside at guard. I keeping my expectations pretty neutral until I see something to swing me one way or the other.

[Throne Logic]

I would like to see the Bills spend both their first round picks on the o-line. Or at least one of them, with the other going to the D-line, and our 2nd going to the o-line. In short, i want to see 2 of our top 3 picks going to the o-line.

Ingtar, I completely agree with your view of this OLine. If this were any other team, I'd also agree with this statement that we need multiple Day 1 picks aimed at rebuilding the OL.

However, given this FO's track record with draft day, especial with lineman on both sides of the ball, is this realistic? The general concensus seems to be that you don't reach for linemen in the first round unless they are top notch quality. Even then, you can still make a poor choice at say, #4. . .

Given that you have more experience at grading these picks, I'm curious who you would aim to take with 11 and 28.

[Bert102176]

I would take Oher to play tackle or Gaurd or Pettigrew which would help our blocking too and is a damn good recieving TE at #11 and Alex Mack a damn good center at #28

[Bert102176]

but it's not up to us and we will see in a week what they do

[Typ0]

I don't believe we will be going into the season with the guys we have now nor will all the new guys come from the draft. Ing what you say is accurate but you are overreacting to the loss of JP which is a jolt to the line. I think it was a positive move though because of the money and his attitude. The guy just couldn't run block well enough to be the top guy he thinks he is and you have to get people to outperform their contracts in the long run to build a winning team. It will work out. If not, we're going to be blowing up the team again next offseason which is going to be the most painfull rebuild to date.

[Ingtar33]

ingtar, i respect your opinion and have some Qs.

1. you make it sound like we have taken a step down or sideways on our line(changing a plus to a minus and a minus to a plus on our pass and run grades), but ditched a top 5 paid LG and a top paid LT. given that we can sign and draft guys, that isn't a bad move at all.

i agree with you. in theory the cap savings makes sense, if all we did was make a lateral step. however, nothing is certain. there is a pretty high chance we stepped backward too.


2. do you think this will cost us games this season? what if we sign a jon runyon or someone and maybe draft a day 1 interior blocker? we'd have

LT walker
LG quality rook/roster guy
C Rook/hangartner
RG butler
RT Runyon

is that line actually worse than what we had? peters had some great plays, but those are offset but horrible game losing sacks ( jp vs the jets, one on in miami vs porter for a safety).

Runyon is pretty much done. so he wouldn't likely be an improvement.


3. how would you grade out the bills line going into last year? the zona line going into last year (with gandy they guy everyone hated)? the giants line 2 years ago?

it is my thought that olines and lt in particular have gone from under valued to over valued in the nfl. left tackles are expensive because the position is just too hard to find a guy to fill. they don't make plays, but mistakes by them cost.

an oline that plays together well, plays hard and does enough is a huge asset (zona, new england). you don't need 10 mill a year guys all over the line, just a stud or two and hard smart players.

we may spend 2 day one picks on the oline, maybe 3 overall picks this year. so i don't see how that makes us worse than we would be 4 years ahead.

this could all blow up in our faces, but if we are standing pat saving money, adding picks, and going into the draft, is that a bad thing really?

Last year i thought they looked pretty mediocre. i was pissed off we went into the year without improving the inside of the line. Last year we went into the season with a gaping hole at RG and Center. We also had the peter's holdout.

Now, as i can tell in this thread, quite a few of you like Butler. I don't. For a guard he's terrible blocking on the run. He can't block in space. He can't get to the 2nd level. and he certainly isn't someone you run behind in short yardage. He's so bad in short yardage i can think about 2-4 times we ran left, only to have his man cut through him, to stop the back in the backfield from behind.

So... we're looking at the problems from last year, compounded with two new problems on the left side. problems in the sense we don't even know who will start at LG or LT. in theory we might have solved the problem at center. so we have 3 problems on the line, both guards and a tackle. compared to the 2.5 problems heading into the season last year (RG/C, + peter's holdout).

I don't like watching the holes in the O-line getting bigger. And that's what i think has happened. Admittedly, i don't think anyone expected Dockery and peters to have such a putrid year last year. Especially since they had such a strong year the year before.

so in theory, we might have got better through subtraction. but that's not a gamble i'd put money on.

we should have fixed C & RG last year, we left it, and the center at least killed us all season (butler really only hurt us on the ground... especially short yardage... his pass blocking improved greatly over the previous season).