OT is a lock at 11

[kid mickey]

The pick is a lock. They traded away Peters because they like either Oher or Smith at 11. Can get him for 4.5 mil to 5 mil a year for 6 years. Both these guys could do what Peters did last year. Oher is actually so similar to Peters and a good 5 years younger that it actually makes a lot of sense. He has all the tools to become a dominant force on the left side of the line. He has to work on some aspects of his game like run blocking but he is young and can really be molded into being the best tackle in this draft.

[Nighthawk]

Nope...it isn't.

[kernowboy]

No it is not.

We can slide Walker over to play LT in the short term whilst Bell develops.

There are at least 8 OT prospects who can start from Day1:

J Smith
Monroe
Oher
A Smith
Beatty
Britton
Meredith
Cadogan

It is far more realistic and likely we won't even draft the OT in Round1 as Cadogan is a player we have spoken to.

Whilst J Smith and Monroe will be out of reach, Andre Smith is an undisciplined slob who will be a headache we don't need, whilst Oher has pass protection uses.

It is closer to being a lock that we will take the best DE available with our first pick and a LB with our second.

[elltrain22]

I actually agree that it is not a lock. I think there is good depth at OT in this year's draft, and I think our 1st pick will be a DE. I think our 1st pick will either be Robert Ayers or Aaron Maybin. I think our 2nd first rounder will be a OT, maybe Britton, which is not a bad pick at all. I think we'd be best suited however to draft Unger or Mack, move Hangartner to LG, and start Mack or Unger at Center from day 1.

[FlyingDutchman]

if andre smith falls to 11 ill do backflips

[Mr. Pink]

I will say it's a LOCK that we don't take a Tackle with the 11th pick, honestly.

[kernowboy]

if andre smith falls to 11 ill do backflips

If Andre Smith falls? He'd be a huge reach at #11

This is Andre Smith. He slammed his team, he turned up out of shape at the combine, he walked out of the combine, he was average at his Pro Day.

Its his only task to keep in shape to get drafted. He must be bi-polar. His selection would make the drafting of Mike Williams look like a stroke of genius. I wouldn't touch Andre Smith on Day1 let alone with our first pick.

I'd have total sympathy with HHurricane if we made such a ridiculous, pathetic and moronic selection.

[kid mickey]

O.K. Just watch when 11th pick comes up and the Bills take Oher. You don't trade away Peters because you think Walker is gonna replace him. You trade Peters because you know you can get a top tackle in this draft. Sorry, but it makes the most sense. You draft a guy who is gonna come in and play right away. Not a guy who is gonna play on third down. While DE is a need the Bills feel good about Schobel coming back healthy. You want this offense to do be better you got to keep Trent on his feet. You don't go and get Owens then lose your starting LT and not draft a LT with 11. The Bills had Andre Smith in for a visit. I am pretty sure they had Oher in for a visit too. I am pretty sure they are going in that direction with pick 11. Writing is on the wall. Those of you who don't see it are pretty blind/naive. Bell is gonna be on the field eventually. As the RT. Walker isn't going to be a Bill much longer. I also believe the Bills may target a OG/C with 28 as well. Depends on what they feel will be available later. Michael Oher and Alex Mack could be the Bills first two selections. I like the idea a lot. Now you have a line.

[kernowboy]

O.K. Just watch when 11th pick comes up and the Bills take Oher. You don't trade away Peters because you think Walker is gonna replace him. You trade Peters because you know you can get a top tackle in this draft. Sorry, but it makes the most sense. You draft a guy who is gonna come in and play right away. Not a guy who is gonna play on third down. While DE is a need the Bills feel good about Schobel coming back healthy. You want this offense to do be better you got to keep Trent on his feet. You don't go and get Owens then lose your starting LT and not draft a LT with 11. The Bills had Andre Smith in for a visit. I am pretty sure they had Oher in for a visit too. I am pretty sure they are going in that direction with pick 11. Writing is on the wall. Those of you who don't see it are pretty blind/naive. Bell is gonna be on the field eventually. As the RT. Walker isn't going to be a Bill much longer. I also believe the Bills may target a OG/C with 28 as well. Depends on what they feel will be available later. Michael Oher and Alex Mack could be the Bills first two selections. I like the idea a lot. Now you have a line.

They also interviewed Cadogan.

Even with Schobel back, they need pressure from the other side.

Are all the pundits who say because the OT position is so deep they don't have to go LT with the first pick wrong as well?

Oher is likely to be gone by #11 anyway as the 49ers need him to replace Jennings who was cut.

[jimbohastle51]

Britton is actually more of a buffalo type of player. He scored a 31 on the wonderlic and.he is a try hard all the time type of player. He would be a very nice pick at 28. But I still tend to believe that we will take a lb on at 11. And a de some where later in the first. Also I think we have a trade In the works for a good player.

[Mitchell55]

They said that Bell and Walker are getting the tackles

[kid mickey]

They also interviewed Cadogan.

Even with Schobel back, they need pressure from the other side.

Are all the pundits who say because the OT position is so deep they don't have to go LT with the first pick wrong as well?

Oher is likely to be gone by #11 anyway as the 49ers need him to replace Jennings who was cut.

Regardless of what anybody thinks four tackles are going within the top 15 picks. My personal belief is that Monroe will be the first off the board followed by J. Smith then A. Smith then Oher. Monroe is the most polished while J. Smith and Oher have the most upside. A. Smith is the most dominating run blocker which fits more into San Frans scheme. I would be willing to bet that if there is a tackle left for the Bills to pick it will be Oher and the Bills will gladly take him because honestly all four of these guys are really effing good.

[kernowboy]

Britton is actually more of a buffalo type of player. He scored a 31 on the wonderlic and.he is a try hard all the time type of player. He would be a very nice pick at 28. But I still tend to believe that we will take a on at 11. And a de some where later in the first. Also I think we have a trade In the works for a good player.

I sneakily think it will be Cadogan. He's the high character type of guy they look for, he's got better feet and is weight room stronger than Eben, he has experienced at play at LG as well and on a line lacking leadership he has been a line leader and team captain in college. He'd be there at 42 allowing the Bills to address the pass rush and LB positions in Round 1

At the combine, Oher was one of the weakest LT in the reps.

[SABURZFAN]

if andre smith falls to 11 ill do backflips

i'd do them with you but i don't want to end up on a gurney.

[kernowboy]

Regardless of what anybody thinks four tackles are going within the top 15 picks. My personal belief is that Monroe will be the first off the board followed by J. Smith then A. Smith then Oher. Monroe is the most polished while J. Smith and Oher have the most upside. A. Smith is the most dominating run blocker which fits more into San Frans scheme. I would be willing to bet that if there is a tackle left for the Bills to pick it will be Oher and the Bills will gladly take him because honestly all four of these guys are really effing good.

A Smith is a team breaking cancer with colossal character issues that many question even if he was to play pro-football. Why would anyone want to waste a pick on him? If we thought we had attitude problems with Peters we won't have seen anything yet.

Reading the Scout.com report, whilst Oher has a lot of potential, he is also weak for his size and has questional motivation to the point where he carries a high 'bust' risk.

I'd rather have a lower considered player who will be a solid pro without the risk.

[kid mickey]

They said that Bell and Walker are getting the tackles

Would you tip your hand? Would you flat out say yeah we like Oher and want to get him? No you would say Walker is going over to LT and Bell is playing RT. I find it funny when you know for a fact that Bills are gonna hit a position hard is when they bring in a million guys that play that position. You created the hole to get the best you can get not guys that are gonna take awhile to step in and play. See the McGahee trade. You created the hole so you could get a guy you like. Marshawn was the pick then and Oher will be the pick now.

[kid mickey]

A Smith is a team breaking cancer with colossal character issues that many question even if he was to play pro-football. Why would anyone want to waste a pick on him? If we thought we had attitude problems with Peters we won't have seen anything yet.

Reading the Scout.com report, whilst Oher has a lot of potential, he is also weak for his size and has questional motivation to the point where he carries a high 'bust' risk.

I'd rather have a lower considered player who will be a solid pro without the risk.

A man who never has been injured in his career, who is a phenom pass blocker and solid run blocker, who sometimes get caught out of position, but has a very strong passion for the game a bust? Please show me a link to this. The guy who may bust is Andre Smith, but I don't even think he busts either. Tape don't lie. These guys are good.

[kernowboy]

A man who never has been injured in his career, who is a phenom pass blocker and solid run blocker, who sometimes get caught out of position, but has a very strong passion for the game a bust? Please show me a link to this. The guy who may bust is Andre Smith, but I don't even think he busts either. Tape don't lie. These guys are good.

4. Michael Oher, Ole Miss 6-5, 309
Pre-Combine Position Rank: 4
Post-Combine Skinny: He needs work, but everyone knew that. He was hardly polished and it seemed like he was trying too hard at times. While he moved well in the quickness drills, the 21 reps on the bench showed just how far he has to go.
Positives: Excellent quickness for his size … Has the prototype size and body … When the light is on, he might be the best tackle in the draft.
Negatives: Needs a fire lit under him … Big upside, but huge bust potential if he doesn't have 'it' .... could stand to get stronger.

http://cfn.scout.com/2/840199.html

[Night Train]

The only lock on draft day is 75 % of the posters screaming the picks suck and they know better.

[kid mickey]

O.k. I see how you could be nervous with that report, but the thing is the potential he has and when the light is on he is the best. Everybody knows this. I am sure the Bills could get him to keep the light on at all times. That report is basically saying exactly what Peters is. When the light is on he is really good. When the light is off he effs up royally. I think I'll take him for half the price of what Peters is.

[FlyingDutchman]

If Andre Smith falls? He'd be a huge reach at #11

This is Andre Smith. He slammed his team, he turned up out of shape at the combine, he walked out of the combine, he was average at his Pro Day.

Its his only task to keep in shape to get drafted. He must be bi-polar. His selection would make the drafting of Mike Williams look like a stroke of genius. I wouldn't touch Andre Smith on Day1 let alone with our first pick.

I'd have total sympathy with HHurricane if we made such a ridiculous, pathetic and moronic selection.

youve got to be kidding. reach? If youre talking talent alone on the field, andre smith is top prospect hands down. The only reason he has slipped at all is obviously bc he admitted he didnt show up to the combine in his best shape. As far as "leaving the combine", he wasnt aware he had to report to someone when leaving. Big freaking deal, it was an honest mistake and he immediately apologized. Ill chalk the showing up out of shape to a young mistake by a kid. God knows I made a ton at his age. Its immaturity.

His talent is too much to ignore, if you say otherwise you havent watched him play and your basing your thoughts off a couple of reports youve read about off field issues this winter. The kid is a freak at LT and has dominated the toughest conference in football since he was a FRESHMAN. Hes won more awards than any tackle coming out in years. He let up something rediculous like 4 sacks in his last two years COMBINED. He is going to be a stud LT in this league for a loooooong time. He would be the number 1 pick in the draft without a doubt if it wasnt for the off the field issues. Ill be amazed if he makes it to us, and I highly doubt the Bills would pass on that talent.

[kid mickey]

The only lock on draft day is 75 % of the posters screaming the picks suck and they know better.

Haha yeah that is true. Just watch though. You will see. Oher is gonna be the guy. I just have this feeling. The last time I had this feeling it was back in 2007 when the Bills were getting ready to draft Marshawn Lynch. I am about 90% certain Oher is the guy.

[kernowboy]

We had Mike Williams, then the attitude of Peters and you want to combine the two?

He might have all the talent in the world but if he's brainless and doesn't want it, why give him a huge deal so he can flunk out? If he has a problem with effort as a college player, how bad will it be when we give him millions.

Most drafts I've seen have Smith going to the Chargers at #16.

[kid mickey]

youve got to be kidding. reach? If youre talking talent alone on the field, andre smith is top prospect hands down. The only reason he has slipped at all is obviously bc he admitted he didnt show up to the combine in his best shape. As far as "leaving the combine", he wasnt aware he had to report to someone when leaving. Big freaking deal, it was an honest mistake and he immediately apologized. Ill chalk the showing up out of shape to a young mistake by a kid. God knows I made a ton at his age. Its immaturity.

His talent is too much to ignore, if you say otherwise you havent watched him play and your basing your thoughts off a couple of reports youve read about off field issues this winter. The kid is a freak at LT and has dominated the toughest conference in football since he was a FRESHMAN. Hes won more awards than any tackle coming out in years. He let up something rediculous like 4 sacks in his last two years COMBINED. He is going to be a stud LT in this league for a loooooong time. He would be the number 1 pick in the draft without a doubt if it wasnt for the off the field issues. Ill be amazed if he makes it to us, and I highly doubt the Bills would pass on that talent.

Couldn't agree more. I think the 49ers are all over him though.

[kernowboy]

Couldn't agree more. I think the 49ers are all over him though.

Where? source please

[kid mickey]

We had Mike Williams, then the attitude of Peters and you want to combine the two?

He might have all the talent in the world but if he's brainless and doesn't want it, why give him a huge deal so he can flunk out? If he has a problem with effort as a college player, how bad will it be when we give him millions.

Most drafts I've seen have Smith going to the Chargers at #16.

I am pretty sure that Andre Smith won't get out of the top ten. Mike Mayock a real talent evaluator thinks he is the top tackle in this draft. Red flags push him out of top 5, but he will not get out of top ten. Like I said tape don't lie. The kid is a phenom.

[kid mickey]

Where? source please

You can't source a gut feeling man. I will say this though. They have no line either. They just let go of Jennings. They are setting themselves up to get a tackle.

[kernowboy]

Defences win Championships and games.

Our defence cannot get the opposition consistently off the field to allow any QB or offence a chance.

The Steelers won it all with Max Starks (RT) defending Big Ben's blindside, whilst Warner was covered by Gandy of all people. Were they stellar top ten choices when drafted? How did they do it?

Because they had weapons such as Fitzgerald/Bolden/Breason and Holmes/Ward/Miller. We have given the offence the additional weapon of Owens, and he with Evans and Reed are the equal of the Cardinals.

What we need though it to be able to get them on the field, and that will not happen with Kelsay/Denney opposite Schobel or with Ellison at WLB.

As you have said, OT is deep and DE is not. We can get a decent player in R2 at OT but not at DE or LB.

When we traded Peters a reason given was the depth of the OT class. When someone says that they don't mean that they automatically have to spend the first selection on a OT, it means they are happy to stick with the original plan pre-trade and still get a decent player with the second R1 choice or even in R2.

Jamon Meredith and Gerald Cadogan will be solid players in this league, and shall I remind you that the of the last 3 starting OTs taken in R2 - Roos, McNeill, Ugoh - two have already been pro-bowlers.

[SABURZFAN]

The only lock on draft day is 75 % of the posters screaming the picks suck and they know better.


i didn't see that at Reckkio's in April of 2004. :funny:

[FlyingDutchman]

We had Mike Williams, then the attitude of Peters and you want to combine the two?

He might have all the talent in the world but if he's brainless and doesn't want it, why give him a huge deal so he can flunk out? If he has a problem with effort as a college player, how bad will it be when we give him millions.

Most drafts I've seen have Smith going to the Chargers at #16.

If one more person uses mike williams as a comparison to andre smith im going to puke. What does Williams have to do with Smith? Williams couldnt hold a candle to smith. I dont understand the Peters comparison either. Look basically he showed up to the combined out of shape. Hes a young kid who just finished an amazing career, and if hes like me, he probably wanted a break after the season and didnt didnt keep in top shape. You can say thats a sign of his character but im willing to chalk it up to immaturity. It by no means negates the freakish 4 year career he had playing for a top school in the toughest conference in the country. I guess thats what makes his draft status so unknown. If people think like me and are willing to give a second chance, he'll go early in the draft, if teams are a little more cautious like you, he may fall. I really dont see Buffalo being able to pass on that much talent, at that point in the draft. I could be wrong.

[FlyingDutchman]

Couldn't agree more. I think the 49ers are all over him though.

yeah i know i have the same feeling. it will be like when patrick willis was sittin there a couple of years ago and the niners scooped him up right before us. ill be so pissed

[kid mickey]

Any way you look at it the Bills need to address the OL first and foremost. Defense can't win games if you can't put points on the board. Which will happen because you want to put second rounders and third rounders in as the guys protecting Mr. Glass Edwards. No thanks. I want guys who can come in from day one make an impact on this offense. We have a solid D. We need a solid O. We have the players to do it. Now we need the line to keep it moving. I'm sorry your all for watching Edwards end his career pre-maturely because we have nobody blocking for him. I'm not. I was naive before the Peters trade to think that the Bills should go with a defensive end with pick 11, but with Peters gone and Dockery gone the biggest need on this team is OL. What was the point of getting Owens if Edwards can't get him the ball? We play a lot of 3-4 teams with massive DT's and DE's. I think I want the best guys you can get for your OL not guys who have more bust potential. You want to waste a pick on a DE with pick 11 when your number one need is OL now. I bashed a guy earlier in the week for saying get Oher to play guard when we had Peters. Well we don't have Peters now and we need a guy to play tackle and another guy to play guard before we even think about drafting a situational player to play DE.

[kernowboy]

It was the biggest moment of his career and he didn't realise it? How stupid is he?

He's had constant weight problems and the moment he's away he piles it on. That leads to injuries very quickly.

Make all the excuses you like for him but no other OT behaved like him at the combine, and then when given another chance at his Pro-Day, he was described as sluggish and still out of shape !!!

He was also suspended at college for talking to an agent before the Utah game, letting all his team mates down.

He is the classic examble of a naturally talented guy let down by arrogance and laziness, thinking that he doesn't have to bother, and the best players in the league have shown that no matter how much natural talent you have, you must work at it, otherwise you will only have a short stay in the league.

[kid mickey]

yeah i know i have the same feeling. it will be like when patrick willis was sittin there a couple of years ago and the niners scooped him up right before us. ill be so pissed

Oher wouldn't be a bad consolation prize though.

[kernowboy]

Any way you look at it the Bills need to address the OL first and foremost. Defense can't win games if you can't put points on the board. Which will happen because you want to put second rounders and third rounders in as the guys protecting Mr. Glass Edwards. No thanks. I want guys who can come in from day one make an impact on this offense. We have a solid D. We need a solid O. We have the players to do it. Now we need the line to keep it moving. I'm sorry your all for watching Edwards end his career pre-maturely because we have nobody blocking for him. I'm not. I was naive before the Peters trade to think that the Bills should go with a defensive end with pick 11, but with Peters gone and Dockery gone the biggest need on this team is OL. What was the point of getting Owens if Edwards can't get him the ball? We play a lot of 3-4 teams with massive DT's and DE's. I think I want the best guys you can get for your OL not guys who have more bust potential. You want to waste a pick on a DE with pick 11 when your number one need is OL now. I bashed a guy earlier in the week for saying get Oher to play guard when we had Peters. Well we don't have Peters now and we need a guy to play tackle and another guy to play guard before we even think about drafting a situational player to play DE.

The offence can only get on the field if the defence gets it on the field

You say we must have a R1 pick here - in what round was Peters selected?

In what round was Pro Bowler Michael Roos selected who protects statue Kerry Collins?

In what round was Pro Bowler Michael McNeill selected who protects Phil Rivers?

In what round was Pro Bowler Matt Light selected who protects Tom Brady?

All started on Day1, but I'll give you a clue .... it was NOT round 1

[kid mickey]

It was the biggest moment of his career and he didn't realise it? How stupid is he?

He's had constant weight problems and the moment he's away he piles it on. That leads to injuries very quickly.

Make all the excuses you like for him but no other OT behaved like him at the combine, and then when given another chance at his Pro-Day, he was described as sluggish and still out of shape !!!

He was also suspended at college for talking to an agent before the Utah game, letting all his team mates down.

He is the classic examble of a naturally talented guy let down by arrogance and laziness, thinking that he doesn't have to bother, and the best players in the league have shown that no matter how much natural talent you have, you must work at it, otherwise you will only have a short stay in the league.

If he would have showed up at the combine in shape and had done the workouts he would be the top tackle taken. End of discussion. He wouldn't of even had to put up crazy numbers. His play speaks for itself.

[kid mickey]

The offence can only get on the field if the defence gets it on the field

You say we must have a R1 pick here - in what round was Peters selected?

In what round was Pro Bowler Michael Roos selected who protects statue Kerry Collins?

In what round was Pro Bowler Michael McNeill selected who protects Phil Rivers?

In what round was Pro Bowler Matt Light selected who protects Tom Brady?

All started on Day1, but I'll give you a clue .... it was NOT round 1

They were all second rounders. What is your point? I can give you a longer list of second round tackles who didn't make it. Bust potential is greater when you move down the draft. Peters wasn't a tackle in college. He was converted. He still isn't even the best in the game. You need to get a clue and realize that the Bills need to get offensive linemen early. Cause right now that is the weakest link on this team.

[kernowboy]

There are huge numbers of OT taken in Round 1 who are also busts or never play up to their level.

It is quite extraordinary the level of panic that Peters has created considering that both the Cardinals and Steelers didn't have a stellar LT when they placed in the SuperBowl.

In fact the last team who had a LT selected in Round1 who made the SuperBowl was the Seahawks in 2006.

The last team who won the SuperBowl who had selected a LT in Round 1 were the Baltimore Ravens in 2001.

Were all those teams wrong and not to have immediately jumped on a left tackle in Round1 even when it was a need position like the Pats had when they drafted Matt Light.

No they looked at all their needs, realised they could get value at a variety of different positions by respecting their draft boards and drafted accordingly not assuming that if you are not a Round1 pick that means you'll only be average and cannot possibly start on Day1

[kid mickey]

There are huge numbers of OT taken in Round 1 who are also busts or never play up to their level.

It is quite extraordinary the level of panic that Peters has created considering that both the Cardinals and Steelers didn't have a stellar LT when they placed in the SuperBowl.

In fact the last team who had a LT selected in Round1 who made the SuperBowl was the Seahawks in 2006.

The last team who won the SuperBowl who had selected a LT in Round 1 were the Baltimore Ravens in 2001.

Were all those teams wrong and not to have immediately jumped on a left tackle in Round1 even when it was a need position like the Pats had when they drafted Matt Light.

No they looked at all their needs, realised they could get value at a variety of different positions by respecting their draft boards and drafted accordingly not assuming that if you are not a Round1 pick that means you'll only be average and cannot possibly start on Day1

I never knew Edwards could move like Ben. Never knew that. Ben also got sacked a lot. I never knew that Edwards could take a beating like that either. I guess Fitzpatrick will be finding the field sooner than later with your strategy. Good thing I don't think the Bills are going that way. Good thing I have a strong feeling that the Bills are going with tackle at 11. I'm not arguing this anymore. I am pretty certain the Bills will take a LT at 11. End of story. So certain that I am gonna laugh my ass off when they do and then I am gonna come on this board and tell all you naysayers I told you so. Remember this post.

[DMBcrew36]

The Bills need a DE with the 11th more than anything

[Nighthawk]

I am pretty sure that Andre Smith won't get out of the top ten. Mike Mayock a real talent evaluator thinks he is the top tackle in this draft. Red flags push him out of top 5, but he will not get out of top ten. Like I said tape don't lie. The kid is a phenom.

Did you say "phenom"? Ha, ha...that's funny.

[kid mickey]

Yea I did. Which is true Mr. Wannabe scout. If you actually knew then you wouldn't mock what I say. Mayock, who is a top analyst, has him(Andre Smith) as his best tackle. So you don't have to take my word for it. If you ever watched an Alabama game you could see how he dominates. Guess you don't. That's ok though. I am sure glad the Bills organization doesn't have a fan like you running their draft. You are clearly not in the know. You are the guy who watches combines and pro days and makes basic assumptions on what they do then. I am the guy who watches games and knows who is good and who isn't. Can't say I am a scout, but I can tell you that value for Michael Oher over Everette Brown at 11 is pretty high. Brown could potentially be there at 28. Not likely but possible. While Oher will not get out of the top 15. None of the top four tackles will.

[Nighthawk]

Yea I did. Which is true Mr. Wannabe scout. If you actually knew then you wouldn't mock what I say. Mayock, who is a top analyst, has him(Andre Smith) as his best tackle. So you don't have to take my word for it. If you ever watched an Alabama game you could see how he dominates. Guess you don't. That's ok though. I am sure glad the Bills organization doesn't have a fan like you running their draft. You are clearly not in the know. You are the guy who watches combines and pro days and makes basic assumptions on what they do then. I am the guy who watches games and knows who is good and who isn't. Can't say I am a scout, but I can tell you that value for Michael Oher over Everette Brown at 11 is pretty high. Brown could potentially be there at 28. Not likely but possible. While Oher will not get out of the top 15. None of the top four tackles will.

Everything you post is exactly what Mayock spews. I like him, but you know nothing and pretend to by rehashing what he says on "Path to the Draft". That is why I'm playing with you and think you are a bit ridiculous.

[kid mickey]

Everything you post is exactly what Mayock spews. I like him, but you know nothing and pretend to by rehashing what he says on "Path to the Draft". That is why I'm playing with you and think you are a bit ridiculous.
Mayock isn't the only guy who knows that Smith is good. I watched Smith play a lot last year. Very good player. I watched Oher play a lot last year very good player. I did not watch Monroe or Smith. So I really don't know much about them. Yet, they are projected high. So they must be good. The main teams I watched were Florida, Ohio State, Penn State, Ole Miss, Alabama, USC, Georgia, and Georgia Tech. So if you look at my mock you will notice I am high on Michael Johnson. Which I think is just as talented as Everette Brown who could be had late first early second.

[Nighthawk]

Heres why I don't see the Bills taking Smith...his motivation and some would argue, only motivation, is money. They just traded away Peters who we are finding out the same thing about. Many NFL Scouts and "experts" wonder how this guy will play once he finally gets paid. I just don't see the Bills taking that chance.

[kid mickey]

Herea why I don't see the Bills taking Smith...his motivation and some would argue, only motivation, is money. They just traded away Peters who we are finding out the same thing about. Many NFL Scouts and "experts" wonder how this guy will play once he finally gets paid. I just don't see the Bills taking that chance.
Maybe they don't take the chance on him. I personally believe they won't even get a chance to take a chance on him. I think Oher is pretty much a lock for the Bills though.

Thats who I put in as the M&T Draft Day challenge anyway. I waited to see what was happening with Peters and then I made my decision. I have liked Oher for a long time. Just couldn't see it happening unless Peters was gone. Which he is now.

[LifetimeBillsFan]

Hey, kid, you seem to think that you know a lot. OK. So, what do you know about Demetrius Bell?

Let me tell you a little bit about him that perhaps you don't know:

Karl Malone is Bell's father and his sister is a WNBA star--so he has good ahtletic blood-lines. While his mother wasn't a junkie, like Oher's was, and he wasn't homeless growing up, his father denied him and he was raised by his single mother. He was a basketball player growing up and didn't play football in HS. He went to a D-II school and graduated last year without missing any time from the Bills' OTAs.

Bell was the same size as Oher coming out of college. Like Oher, he was described as being unusually athletically-gifted, but, also like Oher, was not particularly strong. While Oher went to an SEC school with good coaches and played inconsistently against top college talent, Bell went to a small D-II school and dominated against much lower level competition. Like Oher, Bell was able to get away with using his athleticism to cover up for his deficiencies in techniques. Oher, coming from an SEC program, had the advantage of having someone to teach him proper techniques, Bell didn't and, as a result, was a much rawer prospect coming out of college.

The two are very similar athletically. The red-flag on Bell was his rawness. The red-flag on Oher is his inconsistency and a need to improve his techniques.

While Oher had better coaching in college and played against tougher competition at Ole Miss, Bell has just spent the last year in a NFL conditioning program working with NFL level coaches teaching him techniques and going up against NFL caliber players every day in practice. While Bell had further to go coming into the NFL than Oher has, Bell has been working on his game in the NFL for a year and Oher will get his first taste of doing so when he reports to his first OTA sessions after the draft.

So, what makes you think that Oher is any better prepared to step in to a starting OT spot in the NFL this season than Bell is at this point?

Every year the draft "experts" tell us that a number of LTs in the draft are "ready to step in and start from Day One" and dominate. Yet very few do--maybe one a year, two at most, often because their teams have no other alternative but to put them in the lineup right away whether they are ready or not. Why? Because very few are not only athletically-gifted enough, but polished enough and ready to handle NFL competition from Day One.

Now, there are a couple of LTs in this draft who are probably going to be starting for the teams that draft them on Opening Day. But, there is a pretty good chance that Michael Oher isn't going to be one of them--not unless the team that takes him wants to or has to risk having their QB hit hard a lot.

Why do I say that? Because Oher isn't strong enough yet to handle quality NFL pass rushers consistently and will not have had time to develop the consistency needed in his game to keep them from getting to his QB with sufficient regularity to be alarming.

Now, that's not to say that Oher won't be ready to start in the NFL at some point this season if he works hard at being more consistent and his team needs him badly enough. While it will be difficult for him to have enough time to get as strong as he needs to be at the same time as he is learning everything that he will need to learn, it is possible that, if he comes along quickly, he could become an adequate starter by sometime around mid-season. But, unless he is handed a starting job by default, it is going to take Oher some time to overcome the deficiencies in his game that are detailed in his scouting report.

Oher has a lot of "upside". Perhaps more than any other LT in this draft. But, having a lot of "upside" also means having a long way to go as well. Oher has the athleticism to be an elite LT in the NFL, but he is certainly not going to be there by Opening Day and may not even get close this season.

Bell is extremely athletically-gifted, too. He had farther to go than Oher coming out of college. But, after a year of working in the NFL, it is quite possible that he may be more ready to play at this point than Oher. If he is, the Bills won't have to wait until mid-season to put him on the field: they can start him at RT on Opening Day and, if he does well there, move him to LT over the bye-week break at mid-season. (If he falls on his face at RT, they can replace him there with a rookie, like Cadogan, who they can use a much lower draft pick to obtain, over the bye week break.)

In short, the Bills do not HAVE to use the 11th pick in the draft to take a LT. They MAY. But, they do not HAVE to.

Andre Smith, if he falls to them, is a guy who could cause the Bills to have a serious discussion about taking a LT at # 11. For several reasons.

A.Smith was so consistently dominant (which Oher never was) for his last two years at Alabama that there was serious talk of him being the # 1 pick overall before he showed up at The Combine as a bad impression of the Goodyear Blimp and, then, proceeded to go downhill from there. If he is motivated and in shape, Smith is a guy whose play indicated that he could very well be one of those few able to step into a starting LT spot in the NFL from Day One. He was that good in college.

But, starting with his suspension for the Utah game the red flags started accumulating on Andre Smith to the point where it is quite possible that he could drop past the Bills and well into the middle of the first round. The sloth and laziness that he demonstrated in his preparation for The Combine and his Pro Day have been so reminiscent of former Bill Mike Williams that the Bills, as well as the teams drafting before them, could not be blamed for thinking that Smith might just be took big of a risk to take.

Because no one really knows which Andre Smith they will be getting--the dominant consensus All-American or the flabby, overweight underachiever, Andre Smith is going to generate heated discussions in a number of team's warrooms on Draft Day until he finally gets selected. Perhaps even the Buffalo Bills', if he is still on the board at # 11.

However, because they were burned by Mike Williams and, more recently, by Jason Peters, I believe that the Bills will pass on Andre Smith, if he does drop to them at # 11--particularly if they believe that Bell will be able to play reasonably well for them this season (if only at RT). The Bills might decide that Andre Smith is too good of a talent for them to pass up on, but I seriously doubt it.

Because the Bills can still come back and take Cook, Nelson or maybe even Pettigrew at # 28 to fill their need at TE and, then, take Cadogan or Ungar (who can also play OT) to use as a back-up at both OT positions this season, I think that, if the Bills feel that Bell is ready to play this season, they will use their first round picks to address positions other than LT (with the 11th pick being used for a pass rusher, either DE or LB). [Also, why use the 28th pick on Britten--which they will have to do to get him--who will have to begin at RT and will take a year to be able to move to LT, if he even can, when they can use a later pick to get Cadogan.]

With Andre Smith being such a big risk for a team that has twice been burned recently by OTs and Oher being no more ready to start this season than Bell, I see a Bills FO and coaching staff that are under a lot of pressure to win this season opting to use their top draft picks on players that they feel can at least contribute something to winning as soon as possible this season. A situational pass rusher and a tight end and, maybe, an interior offensive lineman who can also work on the outside (or vice versa) are the most likely to be able to do that.

IMHO Demetrius Bell is the key to what the Bills will do in this draft. Similar in many ways to both Peters and Oher, the Bills drafted him to develop him as a potential replacement for Peters. Don't write him off or ignore him, as a lot of draft "experts" have simply because he didn't play and make a name for himself while being developed this past year. He is an athletic guy who was smart enough to get his college degree and has a year of experience working in the NFL under his belt going for him, which is something that none of the rookies in this draft class have. It just depends on how far he has come in that year.

[kernowboy]

A truly magnificient and excellent post LTBF.

[kid mickey]

A truly magnificient and excellent post LTBF.

A total waste of space.

[kernowboy]

A total waste of space.

Read it silly little boy and you might learn something.

LifetimesBillsFan is the most respected poster on this board and probably any other in terms of his knowledge and clarity of thought. I may not always agree with everything he says, but he has never written anything that has not deserved to have careful consideration.

Your lack of respect for his contribution shows what an ill-informed nobody you are.

[kid mickey]

Hey, kid, you seem to think that you know a lot. OK. So, what do you know about Demetrius Bell?

Let me tell you a little bit about him that perhaps you don't know:

Karl Malone is Bell's father and his sister is a WNBA star--so he has good ahtletic blood-lines. While his mother wasn't a junkie, like Oher's was, and he wasn't homeless growing up, his father denied him and he was raised by his single mother. He was a basketball player growing up and didn't play football in HS. He went to a D-II school and graduated last year without missing any time from the Bills' OTAs.

Bell was the same size as Oher coming out of college. Like Oher, he was described as being unusually athletically-gifted, but, also like Oher, was not particularly strong. While Oher went to an SEC school with good coaches and played inconsistently against top college talent, Bell went to a small D-II school and dominated against much lower level competition. Like Oher, Bell was able to get away with using his athleticism to cover up for his deficiencies in techniques. Oher, coming from an SEC program, had the advantage of having someone to teach him proper techniques, Bell didn't and, as a result, was a much rawer prospect coming out of college.

The two are very similar athletically. The red-flag on Bell was his rawness. The red-flag on Oher is his inconsistency and a need to improve his techniques.

While Oher had better coaching in college and played against tougher competition at Ole Miss, Bell has just spent the last year in a NFL conditioning program working with NFL level coaches teaching him techniques and going up against NFL caliber players every day in practice. While Bell had further to go coming into the NFL than Oher has, Bell has been working on his game in the NFL for a year and Oher will get his first taste of doing so when he reports to his first OTA sessions after the draft.

So, what makes you think that Oher is any better prepared to step in to a starting OT spot in the NFL this season than Bell is at this point?

Every year the draft "experts" tell us that a number of LTs in the draft are "ready to step in and start from Day One" and dominate. Yet very few do--maybe one a year, two at most, often because their teams have no other alternative but to put them in the lineup right away whether they are ready or not. Why? Because very few are not only athletically-gifted enough, but polished enough and ready to handle NFL competition from Day One.

Now, there are a couple of LTs in this draft who are probably going to be starting for the teams that draft them on Opening Day. But, there is a pretty good chance that Michael Oher isn't going to be one of them--not unless the team that takes him wants to or has to risk having their QB hit hard a lot.

Why do I say that? Because Oher isn't strong enough yet to handle quality NFL pass rushers consistently and will not have had time to develop the consistency needed in his game to keep them from getting to his QB with sufficient regularity to be alarming.

Now, that's not to say that Oher won't be ready to start in the NFL at some point this season if he works hard at being more consistent and his team needs him badly enough. While it will be difficult for him to have enough time to get as strong as he needs to be at the same time as he is learning everything that he will need to learn, it is possible that, if he comes along quickly, he could become an adequate starter by sometime around mid-season. But, unless he is handed a starting job by default, it is going to take Oher some time to overcome the deficiencies in his game that are detailed in his scouting report.

Oher has a lot of "upside". Perhaps more than any other LT in this draft. But, having a lot of "upside" also means having a long way to go as well. Oher has the athleticism to be an elite LT in the NFL, but he is certainly not going to be there by Opening Day and may not even get close this season.

Bell is extremely athletically-gifted, too. He had farther to go than Oher coming out of college. But, after a year of working in the NFL, it is quite possible that he may be more ready to play at this point than Oher. If he is, the Bills won't have to wait until mid-season to put him on the field: they can start him at RT on Opening Day and, if he does well there, move him to LT over the bye-week break at mid-season. (If he falls on his face at RT, they can replace him there with a rookie, like Cadogan, who they can use a much lower draft pick to obtain, over the bye week break.)

In short, the Bills do not HAVE to use the 11th pick in the draft to take a LT. They MAY. But, they do not HAVE to.

Andre Smith, if he falls to them, is a guy who could cause the Bills to have a serious discussion about taking a LT at # 11. For several reasons.

A.Smith was so consistently dominant (which Oher never was) for his last two years at Alabama that there was serious talk of him being the # 1 pick overall before he showed up at The Combine as a bad impression of the Goodyear Blimp and, then, proceeded to go downhill from there. If he is motivated and in shape, Smith is a guy whose play indicated that he could very well be one of those few able to step into a starting LT spot in the NFL from Day One. He was that good in college.

But, starting with his suspension for the Utah game the red flags started accumulating on Andre Smith to the point where it is quite possible that he could drop past the Bills and well into the middle of the first round. The sloth and laziness that he demonstrated in his preparation for The Combine and his Pro Day have been so reminiscent of former Bill Mike Williams that the Bills, as well as the teams drafting before them, could not be blamed for thinking that Smith might just be took big of a risk to take.

Because no one really knows which Andre Smith they will be getting--the dominant consensus All-American or the flabby, overweight underachiever, Andre Smith is going to generate heated discussions in a number of team's warrooms on Draft Day until he finally gets selected. Perhaps even the Buffalo Bills', if he is still on the board at # 11.

However, because they were burned by Mike Williams and, more recently, by Jason Peters, I believe that the Bills will pass on Andre Smith, if he does drop to them at # 11--particularly if they believe that Bell will be able to play reasonably well for them this season (if only at RT). The Bills might decide that Andre Smith is too good of a talent for them to pass up on, but I seriously doubt it.

Because the Bills can still come back and take Cook, Nelson or maybe even Pettigrew at # 28 to fill their need at TE and, then, take Cadogan or Ungar (who can also play OT) to use as a back-up at both OT positions this season, I think that, if the Bills feel that Bell is ready to play this season, they will use their first round picks to address positions other than LT (with the 11th pick being used for a pass rusher, either DE or LB). [Also, why use the 28th pick on Britten--which they will have to do to get him--who will have to begin at RT and will take a year to be able to move to LT, if he even can, when they can use a later pick to get Cadogan.]

With Andre Smith being such a big risk for a team that has twice been burned recently by OTs and Oher being no more ready to start this season than Bell, I see a Bills FO and coaching staff that are under a lot of pressure to win this season opting to use their top draft picks on players that they feel can at least contribute something to winning as soon as possible this season. A situational pass rusher and a tight end and, maybe, an interior offensive lineman who can also work on the outside (or vice versa) are the most likely to be able to do that.

IMHO Demetrius Bell is the key to what the Bills will do in this draft. Similar in many ways to both Peters and Oher, the Bills drafted him to develop him as a potential replacement for Peters. Don't write him off or ignore him, as a lot of draft "experts" have simply because he didn't play and make a name for himself while being developed this past year. He is an athletic guy who was smart enough to get his college degree and has a year of experience working in the NFL under his belt going for him, which is something that none of the rookies in this draft class have. It just depends on how far he has come in that year.

I already know everything you just mentioned. A total waste of space. I like Bell have no problem with him at all. If Andre Smith were available I would draft him. Oher is the last guy of the top 4 I would pick. That is not knocking what he can do, by the way. I just feel he is going to be the only one available. Oher may be a little inconsistent, but wasn't Peters last year? With a kid that is 22 years old don't you think you could work on his inconsistencies? Are you aware that a lot of scouts feel he could be the best tackle in this draft? Are you aware that if he was in last years draft he would have been a lock to go top 10? The problem is with barely any inconsistencies in Monroe's game and Jason Smiths game they are projected safer picks. Don't fool yourself into thinking that Oher doesn't have the highest ceiling though.

[kid mickey]

Read it silly little boy and you might learn something.

LifetimesBillsFan is the most respected poster on this board and probably any other in terms of his knowledge and clarity of thought. I may not always agree with everything he says, but he has never written anything that has not deserved to have careful consideration.

Your lack of respect for his contribution shows what an ill-informed nobody you are.

This coming from somebody who likes the idea of throwing a guy into a position that is hardest to play on the line, who has never even played elite talent at the college level. You my friend are a genius. I sure am glad I value your opinions.

[kernowboy]

This coming from somebody who likes the idea of throwing a guy into a position that is hardest to play on the line, who has never even played elite talent at the college level. You my friend are a genius. I sure am glad I value your opinions.

I have been saying Gerald Cadogan from Penn St.

Don't Penn St play in the Big10? Aren't the Big10 an elite college division?

LTBF has said Bell might be ready to start and whilst I disagree he does make the strong point that Bell has faced elite competition every week at practice so has more experience at playing opposite senior players than any rookie in the draft despite coming our from a small college

[kid mickey]

Oh he faced elite talent in a practice setting. Good for him. Show me on game day. Until then I am skeptic of what he can do. I would prefer somebody who faced the best conference week in and week out and that is the SEC. Don't fool yourself into thinking its not.

[kernowboy]

Oh he faced elite talent in a practice setting. Good for him. Show me on game day. Until then I am skeptic of what he can do. I would prefer somebody who faced the best conference week in and week out and that is the SEC. Don't fool yourself into thinking its not.

and Cadogan from Penn St?

[Mahdi]

The pick is a lock. They traded away Peters because they like either Oher or Smith at 11. Can get him for 4.5 mil to 5 mil a year for 6 years. Both these guys could do what Peters did last year. Oher is actually so similar to Peters and a good 5 years younger that it actually makes a lot of sense. He has all the tools to become a dominant force on the left side of the line. He has to work on some aspects of his game like run blocking but he is young and can really be molded into being the best tackle in this draft.
I think the only OT that Buffalo would select at #11 is Andre Smith.

[kid mickey]

I think the only OT that Buffalo would select at #11 is Andre Smith.

I am not sure about this. I think the like both Oher and Smith. They had them both in for visits.

[kernowboy]

I am not sure about this. I think the like both Oher and Smith. They had them both in for visits.

and Cadogan.

[kid mickey]

and Cadogan.

Yeah they did, but what you don't know is that Oher is the one that wasn't reported to the media. It was low key the only reason I know this is because I know a lady who works for the Bills. She does relations with temp agencies like Addeco. She goes to the church my grandma goes to.

[kid mickey]

I would be happy with either Smith or Oher. That's the bottom line. You don't lose your entire line basically and not draft some studs to play on that line. Why would you take a risk of passing on a stud when teams like the Redskins, Chargers, Lions, and Steelers need guys at the position too? You think those guys you like are gonna be around when the Bills are up to pick at 42. I doubt it. OT is a pressing need. You pass on getting one early, then you are in a world of hurt.

[kernowboy]

I would be happy with either Smith or Oher. That's the bottom line. You don't lose your entire line basically and not draft some studs to play on that line. Why would you take a risk of passing on a stud when teams like the Redskins, Chargers, Lions, and Steelers need guys at the position too? You think those guys you like are gonna be around when the Bills are up to pick at 42. I doubt it. OT is a pressing need. You pass on getting one early, then you are in a world of hurt.

but you want to cut Walker, and then be adament on the pick because of what someone your granny knows says?

There are undoubtedly plenty of players who secretly visit plus teams actually also draft players who don't visit but who they spoke to at the combine and at their pro-days.

[kid mickey]

but you want to cut Walker, and then be adament on the pick because of what someone your granny knows says?

There are undoubtedly plenty of players who secretly visit plus teams actually also draft players who don't visit but who they spoke to at the combine and at their pro-days.

When did I actually say I wanted Walker to be cut? I said it would be a surprise cut. Don't take what I said out of context. I said if Bell was to see the field as the RT what would happen to Walker if we drafted Oher. Said he would be the surprise cut. I believe the only guy I actually stated I would like to see get cut was Lindell. Do not ever put words in my mouth. Read the thread before you make a conclusion. Or better yet don't make a conclusion at all because you obviously aren't capable of even seeing what I am saying.

[kernowboy]

When did I actually say I wanted Walker to be cut? I said it would be a surprise cut. Don't take what I said out of context. I said if Bell was to see the field as the RT what would happen to Walker if we drafted Oher. Said he would be the surprise cut. I believe the only guy I actually stated I would like to see get cut was Lindell. Do not ever put words in my mouth. Read the thread before you make a conclusion. Or better yet don't make a conclusion at all because you obviously aren't capable of even seeing what I am saying.

Because what you are frequently saying is nonsense

[kernowboy]

Because what you are frequently saying is nonsense

But it should be excused as you've only just joined this board so maybe you are not used to hearing other people's opinions except your own.

[THATHURMANATOR]

I will say it's a LOCK that we don't take a Tackle with the 11th pick, honestly.
You are a wise man Tom! You must have went to Clarence! :beers:

[kid mickey]

Buddy I had quite a few posts on BBMB before I got banned for mocking stupidity like yours. I am gonna stop now because honestly I do value the board. I do value some peoples opinions, just not yours. I value people that are smart. People that look at this team and realize that our weakest link is offense right now and realize that the Offensive Line needs to be addressed in a major way.

[Jan Reimers]

I would be happy with either Smith or Oher. That's the bottom line. You don't lose your entire line basically and not draft some studs to play on that line. Why would you take a risk of passing on a stud when teams like the Redskins, Chargers, Lions, and Steelers need guys at the position too? You think those guys you like are gonna be around when the Bills are up to pick at 42. I doubt it. OT is a pressing need. You pass on getting one early, then you are in a world of hurt.
For pete's sake, we didn't "lose (our) entire line basically... " We have upgraded the middle with Hangartner and have the right side coming back. Dockery was terrible and can be replaced.

So Peters at LT is the only serious loss, but we also have critical needs at DE and OLB. We need to take the BPA among those three positions.

[kernowboy]

Buddy I had quite a few posts on BBMB before I got banned for mocking stupidity like yours. I am gonna stop now because honestly I do value the board. I do value some peoples opinions, just not yours. I value people that are smart. People that look at this team and realize that our weakest link is offense right now and realize that the Offensive Line needs to be addressed in a major way.

You arrogant little child. Because people have a different opinion from yours that makes them stupid.

What a pathetic individual you are.

I does not surprise me you have been banned elsewhere. Lets hope you get banned from here soon as well

[ddaryl]

Buddy I had quite a few posts on BBMB before I got banned for mocking stupidity like yours. I am gonna stop now because honestly I do value the board. I do value some peoples opinions, just not yours. I value people that are smart. People that look at this team and realize that our weakest link is offense right now and realize that the Offensive Line needs to be addressed in a major way.


your going overboard here bud...

people will have different opinions. I agree with you on the OL, but none the less there is equal debate on the value of a much needed pass rush DE, DT upgrade, and OLB upgrade... and even though we see it differently they're very valid.


you need ot chill out and accept the fact that there are multiple angles and none of us are pro scouts or GM's ... We are nothing more then armchair football nutz

calling out kernowboy is lame because overall he is a quality member to this forum

[Jan Reimers]

I just love it when people have opinions - not facts - different from yours, and that makes you stupid.

The really stupid among us continually confuse opinion with fact, and are adamant that their opinion is always correct.

It has almost driven me off this board on more than one occasion.

[ddaryl]

So Peters at LT is the only serious loss, but we also have critical needs at DE and OLB. We need to take the BPA among those three positions.


I agree... but I honestly believe Oher or A Smith at T is BPA over the majority of DE's available, and over all of the LB's minus Curry

[kid mickey]

I'm not going to back down from the fact that OL is the biggest need on this team. I will not back down from the fact that getting a DL at 11 is a stupid idea now that Peters is gone. I am not gonna back down from the fact that besides Brian Orakpo there is really no DE that is worthy of a selection at 11. There are a lot of DE's in this class that can match the production of Everette Brown in the second round. If anybody cares to watch football. The guy gets a lot of his sacks because he is going against the wind. He didn''t play a lot of elite talent. When he did play elite talent he was nowhere to be found. Eugene Monroe dominated him. I find it funny that Monroe said that the toughest guy he faced was Michael Johnson.

[kid mickey]

I'm not going to back down from the fact that OL is the biggest need on this team. I will not back down from the fact that getting a DL at 11 is a stupid idea now that Peters is gone. I am not gonna back down from the fact that besides Brian Orakpo there is really no DE that is worthy of a selection at 11. There are a lot of DE's in this class that can match the production of Everette Brown in the second round. If anybody cares to watch football. The guy gets a lot of his sacks because he is going against the wind. He didn''t play a lot of elite talent. When he did play elite talent he was nowhere to be found. Eugene Monroe dominated him. I find it funny that Monroe said that the toughest guy he faced was Michael Johnson.

I know this is relatively a bad argument because they didn't play each other this year or last but they did in 2006.

[Mahdi]

I'm not going to back down from the fact that OL is the biggest need on this team. I will not back down from the fact that getting a DL at 11 is a stupid idea now that Peters is gone. I am not gonna back down from the fact that besides Brian Orakpo there is really no DE that is worthy of a selection at 11. There are a lot of DE's in this class that can match the production of Everette Brown in the second round. If anybody cares to watch football. The guy gets a lot of his sacks because he is going against the wind. He didn''t play a lot of elite talent. When he did play elite talent he was nowhere to be found. Eugene Monroe dominated him. I find it funny that Monroe said that the toughest guy he faced was Michael Johnson.
Pass rush is just as important as pass protection. The Steelers proved that being one of the best pass rush teams and one of the worst pass protection teams.

So saying that upgrading our pass rush at 11 is a stupid idea makes no sense. If the Bills really do like D.Bell and are comfortable drafting an OT in round 2 or 3 im ok with that.

In fact Im ok with the Bills taking 2 DL with their first 2 picks then going TE in the 2nd and OL in the 3rd and 4th.

[kid mickey]

No way should the Bills draft a situational rusher in the first round when an OT is gonna be on the field every snap the offense takes. I'm talking value here, but more importantly I am talking a major need here. You can get a situational DE in round 2.

[LifetimeBillsFan]

I already know everything you just mentioned. A total waste of space. I like Bell have no problem with him at all. If Andre Smith were available I would draft him. Oher is the last guy of the top 4 I would pick. That is not knocking what he can do, by the way. I just feel he is going to be the only one available. Oher may be a little inconsistent, but wasn't Peters last year? With a kid that is 22 years old don't you think you could work on his inconsistencies? Are you aware that a lot of scouts feel he could be the best tackle in this draft? Are you aware that if he was in last years draft he would have been a lock to go top 10? The problem is with barely any inconsistencies in Monroe's game and Jason Smiths game they are projected safer picks. Don't fool yourself into thinking that Oher doesn't have the highest ceiling though.

Doesn't the same thing that you say here, that I have bolded, also apply to Bell? What makes him any different in this regard than Oher?

Are you aware that many scouts felt that Bell could be the "steal of the draft" last year?

I'm not saying that offensive line isn't a priority need for the Bills. I believe that it is and have said 1.) that I would not be surprised if the Bills took at OT at # 11; 2.) that I would not be surprised if they took an OT at # 28; 3.) that I think that there is a very good possibility that they will take an offensive lineman at # 28; and, 4.) if they don't, it is likely that they will take an offensive lineman with their 2nd round pick.

No one who has followed the Bills is questioning whether the Bills have a need on the offensive line. And, they will use the draft to address that need--they have said as much.

What I object to is the unequivocal nature of your statement that the Bills are "a lock" to take an OT at # 11. As if there is no other alternative.

And, I seriously object to your statement that anyone who doesn't agree is stupid or doesn't know the game.

Having been watching pro football since 1958, played the game up through the college level, worked for the Bills briefly, gotten paid to play another sport, and followed the Bills closely ever since they were founded, I think I know a little bit about the game. And, there are others who post here, including coaches and people who have worked in the NFL, who know even more about the game than I do. With very few exceptions, there really aren't any stupid people who post here and there are many who know a great deal about football and the Buffalo Bills.

So, if you are still reading this, with all due respect, let me give you a couple of little tips, kid: 1.) Good manners will always get you over. 2.) Don't make assumptions about other people, especially if you don't know them--you could end up embarrassing yourself. 3.) Just because you don't agree with someone, it doesn't mean that he can't be right. 4.) You don't have to change your mind or your opinion to recognize that someone who disagrees with you may have raised a good point. and 5.) When making predictions about what other people may do, it is always wise to make them conditional and leave yourself an "out" (especially when talking about the Bills :lol:).

Now, you could be right about the Bills taking an OT at # 11. But, as I and others in this thread have pointed out, it may not be as much of a lock as you seem to believe--even though, as we all acknowledge, shoring up the offensive line is a priority (after the Peters trade, I believe that they only have 9 offensive linemen on the roster, a team needs at least 16-17 just for training camp). A lot depends on how the Bills see the situation and the way the draft will shape up. And, that means that they could decide to go in a different way with that 11th pick.

I don't have any problem with you sticking up for what you believe the situation is and what the Bills will do with the 11th pick. That's fair enough. But, others aren't necessarily stupid if they don't agree with you and it doesn't make anyone feel very good about you or your views when you say that they are. If you want respect, give it--give it and you may get it. If I respect you, I will give not only respect, but serious consideration to your views, even if I disagree with them. Fair enough?

[Philagape]

The only stupid thing people are doing around here is quoting the little kid while others are trying to put him on ignore (ahem) :tap:

[kid mickey]

Reading your post puts another perspective to things, though I will adamantly stand by my beliefs that taking anything but an OT at 11 is not a smart decision. I don't know what other way to put it. The comment was originally directed at a single poster, but blew out of proportion and there was some back and forth insults, but I will admit it was immature. I apologize for insulting anyone, but I have no respect for certain posters. Which in return means I don't care if they respect me. This does not include you lifetimebillsfan. I happen to like your posts, even if I don't agree with them. They offer real insight.

[kernowboy]

Reading your post puts another perspective to things, though I will adamantly stand by my beliefs that taking anything but an OT at 11 is not a smart decision. I don't know what other way to put it. The comment was originally directed at a single poster, but blew out of proportion and there was some back and forth insults, but I will admit it was immature. I apologize for insulting anyone, but I have no respect for certain posters. Which in return means I don't care if they respect me. This does not include you lifetimebillsfan. I happen to like your posts, even if I don't agree with them. They offer real insight.

The issue is the value of the pick at each place whilst matching up with team needs.

Lets say it like this

Oher is a 100
Brown is a 90
Beatty is a 80
Mack is a 70
Laurinitas is a 70
Cadogan is a 50
Barwin is a 40

If you draft Oher, Mack and Barwin you end up with a score of 210.

But if you draft Brown, Laurinaitis and Cadogan you end up with a score of 220.

All teams will have draft boards scoring each player at each position and what they might think is that even though in an ideal world they would want to take Oher they consider the fall off in value to the next group of OT to not be that great, while the value of Brown is much higher than other players at his position.

Therefore they might take the slightly lower rated player simply because they can fill another positional need at the next draft selection and get better value.

Your notion might work if the Bills had the luxury of choosing the best player available and only had one gap, but in truth the Bills have gaps not only at LT but also DE, WLB, LG and TE and they will have to balance the value of each player at each position, and the fall off in choice to the 2nd ranked player at the position is greater.

I seriously think that the Bills would be delighted with Oher, but would be more than happy with Britton or Cadogan but will also be very happy with Brown but less than pleased if they have to reach for English or Barwin.

Its not about where a player is placed at his position, it is where he placed overall as a measurement of all the positions.

[Jan Reimers]

My main problem with locking on an OT at 11 is that only J. Smith and Monroe appear to be "sure things" (if there is ever such a thing in the draft), and they will in all probability be gone by the time we pick. A. Smith and Oher seem to be major boom or bust candidates. The next tier (Beatty, Cadogen et.al.) actually seem like safer bets.

I'd hate to see a J.Smith turn into Mike Williams after we passed on an aggressive pass rushing DE or OLB.

[kid mickey]

Problem with your scoring is you don't know the score the Bills have on a certain player.

[Mahdi]

No way should the Bills draft a situational rusher in the first round when an OT is gonna be on the field every snap the offense takes. I'm talking value here, but more importantly I am talking a major need here. You can get a situational DE in round 2.
Who says the DE we draft cant come in and play every down right away. Kelsay hasn't exactly run away with the starting DE spot. I think the DE the Bills select will be starting day 1 and playing every down. It simply cant get any worse with guys like Kelsay and Denney, at least with the kids there is is potential and talent there.

[kid mickey]

My main problem with locking on an OT at 11 is that only J. Smith and Monroe appear to be "sure things" (if there is ever such a thing in the draft), and they will in all probability be gone by the time we pick. A. Smith and Oher seem to be major boom or bust candidates. The next tier (Beatty, Cadogen et.al.) actually seem like safer bets.

I'd hate to see a J.Smith turn into Mike Williams after we passed on an aggressive pass rushing DE or OLB.

The top four OT's in this draft are a safer thing than any DE in this draft. Yea that includes Orakpo. Why do you think they have four OT's possibly going in the top 10? You know what you are getting with each player. Orakpo could bust just like Gholston. Everette Brown got a whole lot of sacks against the wind. Aaron Maybin played at 230 lbs then bulked up to weight he's never played at top on the fact he's only been doing it for a year. Tyson Jackson is actually the safest pick, but he doesn't fit the scheme and Robert Ayers just doesn't have the sack production. Now looking at guys like Connor Barwin who can be had at late first whats the biggest difference between him and Aaron Maybin? The school they went to? Take a look at Michael Johnson who Eugene Monroe why is he such a late pick when Monroe arguably the best tackle in this draft said he was the toughest opponent he faced? I am telling you now that any DE in the first round can easily be matched in the second.

[kernowboy]

Problem with your scoring is you don't know the score the Bills have on a certain player.

Agreed but that is the way the Bills will approach it, and from all the scouting reports I have read, Oher is much closer in talent levels to those OT ranked below him, than Brown is to the DE below him.

What the Bills will be considering is the fall off in talent levels. They need starters so do they grab a college LB, or a talented DE who they think they can convert to LB?

I think this year, they will be very conservative in their selections and after the Peters/Lynch issues will be extremely risk averse.

[kid mickey]

Who says the DE we draft cant come in and play every down right away. Kelsay hasn't exactly run away with the starting DE spot. I think the DE the Bills select will be starting day 1 and playing every down. It simply cant get any worse with guys like Kelsay and Denney, at least with the kids there is is potential and talent there.

Highly doubt this. If it was true Kelsay would have been gone already. Oh and by the way show me just one DE in recent history that came in and dominated right off the bat you can't name me not a single one. Not even the great Mario Williams did it. So whatever dreams you have of a DE coming in and helping out right away you better let go. The only positions that honestly have the best shot of coming in and having an impact from day one are cornerbacks safeties linebackers runningbacks and offensive linemen.

[kernowboy]

The top four OT's in this draft are a safer thing than any DE in this draft. Yea that includes Orakpo. Why do you think they have four OT's possibly going in the top 10? You know what you are getting with each player. Orakpo could bust just like Gholston. Everette Brown got a whole lot of sacks against the wind. Aaron Maybin played at 230 lbs then bulked up to weight he's never played at top on the fact he's only been doing it for a year. Tyson Jackson is actually the safest pick, but he doesn't fit the scheme and Robert Ayers just doesn't have the sack production. Now looking at guys like Connor Barwin who can be had at late first whats the biggest difference between him and Aaron Maybin? The school they went to? Take a look at Michael Johnson who Eugene Monroe why is he such a late pick when Monroe arguably the best tackle in this draft said he was the toughest opponent he faced? I am telling you now that any DE in the first round can easily be matched in the second.

Monroe faced Johnson and Brown in 2006 - I would have hoped both had improved.

There is as good a chance of an OT becoming a Chris Williams, Sam Baker or Duane Brown, as them being a Jake Long or Ryan Clady.

The reason why so many are ranked in the Top10 is because this year it is a position of need.

Detriot ideally need one because Backus is getting old.
St Louis need one because Pace is gone and Barron has failed there.
KC might need one but will probably get by with Alberts
Seattle will need one soon because Walter Jones is getting old
Cincinatti need one as Levi Jones has slowed down and they need to protect Palmer
Jacksonville have a 35year old free agent who might not last too long
Green Bay need one as Chad Clifton has slowed down
San Francisco need one as they released Jennings.

As was shown last year with six tackles taken is that teams weren't really applying true value to the pick but drafting for need and that is what will probably happen this year with tackles going higher than initially though because a number of the Top10 teams need LT because of age, releases etc

However when we consider the teams below us

Den
Was
NO
Hou
SD
NYJets
Den
TB
Det

You wait until maybe Tampa Bay before you find another team who might want to draft a LT. All of them have youngish or recently drafted LT so won't look at them.

And that is how the draft often falls. There will be tackles available in the 20s who in previous years might have gone at 12 and 13 not because they aren't good but because there is a list of teams who have no need for a OT.

[kid mickey]

Here is a pretty good way to look at it. Last year the Jacksonville Jaguars selected Derek Harvey with the first pick then went on to select Quentin Groves by trading up into the second round. Now I don't see the big difference between the two thus far.

Harvey 19 tackles 3.5 sacks no FF
Groves 13 tackles 2.5 sacks 1 FF

Can't really see the big difference in production.

[kid mickey]

Washington could use a tackle. San Diego could use a tackle. Detroit is definitely going to take a tackle. Don't pretend to know what other teams may or may not need. You follow the Bills.

[kernowboy]

Last year the Saints were able to find excellent starting offensive linemen in R6

[kid mickey]

Good for them. I wouldn't take that chance.

[kernowboy]

Washington could use a tackle. San Diego could use a tackle. Detroit is definitely going to take a tackle. Don't pretend to know what other teams may or may not need. You follow the Bills.

We are talking Left Tackles

Washington have Chris Samuels and John Jansen in place. They are very high on Stephon Heyer but you can never tell with Snyder who has done very well when Jansen went down and started 7 games

The Chargers need is at right tackle. Marcus McNeill is a Probowl LT. Whilst they don't have a R2 pick they may try to package something together to get Loadholt at the end of R2, or Tupou from Oregon in R3. Both are huge RT.

Detroit spent a R1 pick on Chelios last season and still have Jeff Backus at LT. I didn't say they didn't have a need at LT, just that the needs started with TB to pick before them who have Donald Penn at LT, and I think the Lions have more needs and will stick with Chelios/Backus.

Clearly I know a little.

[kid mickey]

Sure. Sure you did your homework, but the thing is why haven't you responded to my point about Harvey and Groves?

[kernowboy]

I was never high on any of the Defensive Ends last year, but it does show you how much teams will over value players in a time of need and give up too much for them or draft them too high.

I think Orakpo and Brown grade higher than those last year, and I think Maybin does to.

Every player is a risk to a certain extent - there have been some can't miss busts over the history of the draft.

But the fall off in talent between Harvey and someone like Laurence Wilson or Quentin Groves was less than this year.

And what you have carefully chose to omit was that Groves had a huge red flag because he'd had heart surgery just before the draft or otherwise he would have been a Round 1 selection.

What the Jaguars also failed to do was adequately replace Stroud which extremely inhibited their ability to generate a pass rush. If they had done so, you could have added an extra 5 sacks to each of their sack totals.

[Mahdi]

Highly doubt this. If it was true Kelsay would have been gone already. Oh and by the way show me just one DE in recent history that came in and dominated right off the bat you can't name me not a single one. Not even the great Mario Williams did it. So whatever dreams you have of a DE coming in and helping out right away you better let go. The only positions that honestly have the best shot of coming in and having an impact from day one are cornerbacks safeties linebackers runningbacks and offensive linemen.
Like I said, Kelsay and Denney have done nothing to warrant starting again or even getting spot duty.

A rookie with a ton of potential and 10x the talent can be no worse than what those 2 bring so we have nothing to lose. Even if they don't come in and light things up it wont be a big deal. At least we will be bringing them along with quality time on the field and maybe by week 12 they are hitting their stride.

At least these guys can bring some talent to the table even if the production is not there right away. With Kelsay there is no production and no talent either.

[Jan Reimers]

The top four OT's in this draft are a safer thing than any DE in this draft. Yea that includes Orakpo. Why do you think they have four OT's possibly going in the top 10? You know what you are getting with each player. Orakpo could bust just like Gholston. Everette Brown got a whole lot of sacks against the wind. Aaron Maybin played at 230 lbs then bulked up to weight he's never played at top on the fact he's only been doing it for a year. Tyson Jackson is actually the safest pick, but he doesn't fit the scheme and Robert Ayers just doesn't have the sack production. Now looking at guys like Connor Barwin who can be had at late first whats the biggest difference between him and Aaron Maybin? The school they went to? Take a look at Michael Johnson who Eugene Monroe why is he such a late pick when Monroe arguably the best tackle in this draft said he was the toughest opponent he faced? I am telling you now that any DE in the first round can easily be matched in the second.
I doubt very much if 4 OTs are going in the top 10, and there are plenty of pundits who have questioned A. Smith's character, decision-making and conditioning, as well as Oher's propensity to take plays off. They are boom/bust guys who a team with our needs shouldn't necessarily take, depending on who else is available. All I'm saying is that it is dangerous to blindly lock on one position, albeit a position of need, if better players at need positions are available.

[kid mickey]

I am willing to bet anybody here that 3 tackles go top 10. Any takers? Fourth one goes to Buffalo. Who wants to bet. If I am wrong I will never post on this board again. If you are wrong you gotta give me props for knowing what I know.

[Mahdi]

I am willing to bet anybody here that 3 tackles go top 10. Any takers? Fourth one goes to Buffalo. Who wants to bet. If I am wrong I will never post on this board again. If you are wrong you gotta give me props for knowing what I know.
I am betting that if Andre Smith is on the board at 11 Buffalo takes him, if not, they go DE.

[Bert102176]

I am saying our first pick will be Pettigrew, but notice I did not say it would be at #11, I am thinking we trade back before pick 20, we get that pick for 11 and we get another 2nd plus we draft Pettigrew with that pick and then mack or unger at #28

[TedMock]

Highly doubt this. If it was true Kelsay would have been gone already. Oh and by the way show me just one DE in recent history that came in and dominated right off the bat you can't name me not a single one. Not even the great Mario Williams did it. So whatever dreams you have of a DE coming in and helping out right away you better let go. The only positions that honestly have the best shot of coming in and having an impact from day one are cornerbacks safeties linebackers runningbacks and offensive linemen.

In recent history? Not one? DE's and pass rushing OLB's (I bunch them together because their primary purpose is similar - pressure the QB) have indeed come in and played at a high level. I don't have time to research every DE and pass rushing OLB, but what about guys like Peppers who had 12 sacks his rookie year? Or Dumervil with 8.5, Ware 8, Allen 9, Suggs 12, Merriman 10, or Freeney with 13? Every one of these guys played at a high level in year one and continue to play well. Some years are better than others, but they are decent to great starters every year. All in this decade too.

[kernowboy]

I sometimes wonder if Kid Mickey opens his mouth so he has somewhere to put his feet.

[kid mickey]

Freeney is the exception to the rule. Every other guy you list besides Dumerville is a OLB. I am talking about a traditional 4-3 end who doesn't have the advantage of just running by most linemen because the DE in that scheme is usually taking on the tackle and the guard. Teams that play the 3-4 usually do it because it is easier to get sacks in the scheme. When your nt takes on the center and bascially helps whichever de isn't containing a double team, the 3-4 is built for guys who have more trouble getting off blocks. The pass-rushers usually run right by everybody because the OL is blocking DE's and NT's.

[kid mickey]

If you'd like to talk about the best pass rusher to ever play the game in a 3-4 its Bruce Smith. Who played the DE spot. There aren't a lot of guys who played with their hand in the dirt and got 200 sacks playing DE in a 3-4. Which in respect to what he did made him the greatest DE to ever play the game.

[LifetimeBillsFan]

Glad to see how this thread really evolved into a good, serious discussion of football since last night!


Problem with your scoring is you don't know the score the Bills have on a certain player.

Great point!!! The problem is that none of us know the scores that the Bills have put on these players and they certainly aren't going to tell us. Believe me, I think we would all just LOVE to know!

But, Jan made a very good point as well--because it really reflects how the Bills have approached their drafting in the last couple of years: with all of the holes in their roster that the Bills have to fill in this draft, there is a very good chance that they are going to look to get what they consider to be the best combination of players out of their top four picks. To do that, they may pass on a player who may have a higher score than the one they take at one spot in order to get a combination of players with a higher total score.

They have done that in a couple of their recent drafts, much to the frustration of fans who thought that they could have gotten better value at a certain pick than they did. For example: they passed on Ngata and Bunkley to take Whitner and then traded back up to get McCargo. While you can complain about Whitner all you want, he has been the best of the top rated safeties in that draft (Huff, Allen, Bullocks--no one had Bethea rated highly) and, while McCargo has been a disappointment who has not played up to his rating, there was a big drop-off in rankings at DT in that draft after him (Cofield and K.Williams have been the best of those taken after him and Watson has come on to be OK, too, but the next rated DT is out of the league now, I believe). The Bills missed out big on Ngata, but went for what they felt would give them the best combination of players to fill their needs.

The problem that the Bills face this year is that all of the players who are likely to fall to them at OT and DE this year have serious questions about them. Except for Andre Smith and Brian Orakpo, there are serious questions about whether any will be ready to step in and start for a team from Day One and there are serious questions about whether Smith and Orakpo will consistently put out the effort to play up to their abilities.

Kid is right about how few DEs are able to step in and be productive right way in the NFL. But, the same is also true of LTs. While there are some who can play well as rookies, generally speaking offensive linemen take some time to develop and there are many OTs who play as rookies not so much because they are truly ready to do so, but because they are thrust into the lineup and forced to learn on the job.

That's why I have been saying that who the Bills use their first pick on will depend a lot on how the team sees Demetrius Bell's progress. And, I should have also added Chris Ellis--who may be better prepared to challenge for a starting DE job now that he has had a year of seasoning and an offseason in a NFL conditioning program to add strength.

The problem for us fans is that we don't know what has been going on behind closed doors at OBD with these two players and how that has impacted how the Bills see their needs and have valued their draft board. They may see their priorities as being very different than those outside of the organization do (which is something that I suspect to be the case and have been trying to bring to everyone's attention).

The other thing is that we don't have access to the kind of tape and other information on these players that they do. We may see a guy on TV that we like or study some highlight films. We may even read all of the scouting information that we can get our hands on from various internet sources. But, there are things that we don't know that can seriously impact the score that the Bills have put on a given player. And, as a result, they may have a very different grade on that player not only than we do, but than some other teams in the NFL do.

We may have a pretty good idea of what their needs are and be able to make a fairly good guess about what direction they will take with their picks in the draft, but that doesn't mean that their board will agree with us or that they will do what we think they will do (ie, I was flumoxed when they took T.Edwards when they did, even though I had them taking a QB later on). IMHO that especially applies in a year like this one where there are some obvious questions about the immediate contributions that the players at what appear to be their two biggest areas of need will be able to make.

I know that they have to address offensive line in this draft and think that they are likely to take an offensive tackle at some point (although they could pick up a young vet like Carnaghan who was recently released after the draft as well or instead). But, will it be with their first pick? Ooooh, I don't know.

Should they? Kid makes some solid points about why they should. And, I respect his right to have and defend that position--it is as valid a stance as mine or any other. But, the question is will they and is it a lock that they will? IMHO, maybe. But, there are a lot of things that I just don't know about what they are thinking to make me that certain. And, so, I won't be that surprised if they don't.

On the other side, I will also say that I'm just as uncertain about whether they should take a defensive end. I happen to like one that may be available, but there are as many questions about him as there are about any of the other DEs and OTs that we have all been talking about. And, there is no guarantee that any of these DEs are going to become superstars in the NFL, either. So, I'm not that sure that going this route would be the best way to go either.

Perhaps more than in any other year, I don't think that I will be shocked by anything that the Bills do in this draft--including trade down out of the 11th pick. It is going to be fascinating to see what they do. I'm sure that, whatever they do, it is going to generate a lot of heated discussion on this board!!!

[Mitchell55]

I find it funny that a day after this was made a bunch of reports came in saying we are picking DE.

[kid mickey]

Yeah its almost like they don't want my thread to be seen. If it had no voice you wouldn't think it would be so hush hush by the Bills. Smokescreen 101.