I'm new to this board, but the pessimism here is about to make me a FORMER member

[JohnnyGold]

i get the feeling that if real life was a madden game, 95% of this board would sim through the 09 season.

why?

i think some of you are just being contrarian for the sake of it, or even worse, taking what ESPN says as gospel.

how can you say our o-line will be terrible this year? terrible compared to what? last years o-line? any o-line from the last DECADE of bills teams that hasn't had a winning season, save 04s 9-7 squad?

modrak is clearly taking the reigns in the front office, and for the first time since flutie was running things, he's eliminating question marks. the running game is solid. the wideouts are great. edwards in the qb, and the team and coaching staff believes in him. special teams are great. our secondary is there.

lbs and our de's need improvement, to be sure, but that doesnt happen overnight. it is, for all intents and purposes, a NEW front office approach, and it will take time to build the team. but to say that this team has gone BACKWARDS from last season is crazy.

there is plenty to be excited about for 09.

look, we have a young qb, who was playing his first full season as a starter under a new OC. theyre both back, with a year to build on. we were 7-9 last year, and the cleveland game, the jets game and the niners game all were winnable. yeah yeah yeah, close only counts in handgrenades and horse shoes but guess what? arizona won ugly last year on plenty of occasions, and look where it got them. a field goal here, a non-jp-losman-fumble there, and the team would be that much better.

i don't give a ***** what john clayton says about our schedule. our schedule is NOT hard. 3 games scare me - the 2 patriots games (as always,) and the titans game. the furthest west we go is kansas city. the team barely has to travel. we lose the home game to the jets in toronto, and the jets are going to be TERRIBLE this year.

the draft hasnt even happened yet, and were loaded with picks. if we ship parish to pit, we got more coming our way.

you wouldnt know it from reading this board, but we signed one of the best wideouts in the league, and hes going to be our # TWO. our offense will be sick.

i for one cant wait for the season to start. going into last season, i knew the bills would be better than the year before... everyone did. and they were. going into this year, i feel the same way. theyve only gotten better, AND THE DRAFT HASNT HAPPENED YET. theyll be a better team, the jets will be a worse team, the dolphins are relying on noodle arm to lead them with a trick offense through a tougher schedule. its gonna be great, i cant wait, see you at the stadium, unless you hang yourselves first.

[kernowboy]

great post. The board needs more positive contributions like yours.

[HHURRICANE]

So basically ignore the facts and be a fan. Any chance you can give me some concrete reasons why we'll be better in 2009?

[ddaryl]

We have Dick Jauron for a headcoach

We have missed the playoffs for 10 years

We have given up a game a year ot Toronto.

We have more holes on the team now then we did when we ended the 2008 season

Bills fans have every right ot be pessimistic, even though some here are always pessimistic regardless of situation

[Pinkerton Security]

So basically ignore the facts and be a fan. Any chance you can give me some concrete reasons why we'll be better in 2009?

no - wait for ALL the facts. If you honestly quit on the Bills when we have 5 months to go til the season starts, then you honestly werent a very good fan to begin with. You can complain all you want but quitting, thats just no good.

[mchurchfie]

What, did Ralph send you over here for a little damage control Johnny?

[THATHURMANATOR]

I am with you Johnny.

Football is a form of entertainment. I have realized there are things A LOT more important than if we re sign a Left tackle etc....

When the Bills no longer exist or no longer bring me entertainment I will just stop watching. I am not going to worry so much about it.

Calm down everyone...

[yordad]

It is a great post. I have had countless similar opinions over the years. Unfortunately, I was wrong countless times. No longer. I have come to believe they will never be good again. And, at this point, the only way to make me believe otherwise, is to have me see otherwise.

The glass maybe be half full, instead of half empty, but it surely isn't a full glass no matter how ya look at it.

I believe they are running an experiment. How much money can you not spead and still sell out? How do you cut Dockery with no replacement? Why would you cut him to save a roster bonus, when people were offering you picks? Ralph keep that money, and the offering teams kept their picks. Of course the Bills could have saved the money, and got the picks, if their head wasn't in a cloud leading up to the deadline.

Every year, same story. The optimisim has been beat out of me, and their is only one way to put it back. I don't think signing the pro bowl team would convince me til I seen it. I believe the Bills would still screw it up.

But I still root. I didn't choose to be a Bills fan, I just am. You want censership, or rose colored glasses, try one of the less informed boards. It you want to spead the love, and try to convince some of us the sky isn't falling, your welcome to stay.

[JohnnyGold]

What, did Ralph send you over here for a damage control Johnny?


you exemplify my entire post. your sig is a picture of the absolute lowest point of last season. you take pride in reveling in our failure. you probably get a half guy when espn runs a story about the bills being cursed, and change the channel when they start talking about who were going to draft.

look forward brother. youre like a battered woman in an abusive relationship. you like losing. you WANT to have a reason to complain. take comfort in the fact that the majority of this board shares that view point.

[The Spaz]

I admit I was down for a while but like I have always said if you if you want to criticize everything and anything and blowoff the team before they see the field why bother watching the game or be a fan?

[Philagape]

It's an interesting psychological phenomenon, how the cheerleaders are more vocal than usual. Perhaps a defense mechanism? Inability to deal with far more holes on the team than the one that went 7-9 for the third straight year?
Dropping deadweight doesn't matter if they're not replaced with improvements. Right now, our saviors are Chambers, Bell, Hangartner and McKinney. We have a Wal-Mart O-line.
What are people's standards around here? The other day, someone defended the Wal-Mart line by saying they're "NFL caliber." So in other words, merely being good enough to play in the league is cause for optimism.
Playoffs? Oh, that's for the big boys. We're just happy to be here.
The draft needs to be a grand slam to get this team into contention. What are the chances of that with this front office? "Take time to build"???? They've had THREE YEARS, and they've gotten NOWHERE. Any gains have been offset by yet more personnel fiascos. Any team that's relying this much on the draft, and has as crappy a track record as ours in the draft, is in deep trouble.
The time has MORE question marks now. LT, LG, C, DE, WLB, TE, FB, FS. Other spots are mired in mediocrity, not to mention a joke of a head coach. More than half the o-line, and the pass rush, crucial to the defense, are up in the air. There is no reason to think this year's line will be any better than the last 10 years or crap.
What the hell is there to be excited about??? Don't give me crap about rebuilding and potential and upside and woulda coulda shoulda. I'll get excited when the team makes the playoffs, and not one damn day sooner. I'm sick of rebuilding.

[justasportsfan]

i get the feeling that if real life was a madden game, 95% of this board would sim through the 09 season.

why?

i think some of you are just being contrarian for the sake of it, or even worse, taking what ESPN says as gospel.

how can you say our o-line will be terrible this year? terrible compared to what? last years o-line? any o-line from the last DECADE of bills teams that hasn't had a winning season, save 04s 9-7 squad?

modrak is clearly taking the reigns in the front office, and for the first time since flutie was running things, he's eliminating question marks. the running game is solid. the wideouts are great. edwards in the qb, and the team and coaching staff believes in him. special teams are great. our secondary is there.

lbs and our de's need improvement, to be sure, but that doesnt happen overnight. it is, for all intents and purposes, a NEW front office approach, and it will take time to build the team. but to say that this team has gone BACKWARDS from last season is crazy.

there is plenty to be excited about for 09.

look, we have a young qb, who was playing his first full season as a starter under a new OC. theyre both back, with a year to build on. we were 7-9 last year, and the cleveland game, the jets game and the niners game all were winnable. yeah yeah yeah, close only counts in handgrenades and horse shoes but guess what? arizona won ugly last year on plenty of occasions, and look where it got them. a field goal here, a non-jp-losman-fumble there, and the team would be that much better.

i don't give a ***** what john clayton says about our schedule. our schedule is NOT hard. 3 games scare me - the 2 patriots games (as always,) and the titans game. the furthest west we go is kansas city. the team barely has to travel. we lose the home game to the jets in toronto, and the jets are going to be TERRIBLE this year.

the draft hasnt even happened yet, and were loaded with picks. if we ship parish to pit, we got more coming our way.

you wouldnt know it from reading this board, but we signed one of the best wideouts in the league, and hes going to be our # TWO. our offense will be sick.

i for one cant wait for the season to start. going into last season, i knew the bills would be better than the year before... everyone did. and they were. going into this year, i feel the same way. theyve only gotten better, AND THE DRAFT HASNT HAPPENED YET. theyll be a better team, the jets will be a worse team, the dolphins are relying on noodle arm to lead them with a trick offense through a tougher schedule. its gonna be great, i cant wait, see you at the stadium, unless you hang yourselves first.

So what makes you think our OL will be better?

If you think going 0-6 in the division last year was better than the year before, then you must love being the AFCE's *****.

I think our OC coming back is the problem. Even the qb blamed him. Did you not hear what Trent said when Teams showed them defensive looks they did not pratice for? Thats a COACHING PROBLEM.


You think we'll just be a better team via the draft? Are you forgettting that other teams in the AFCE will be drafting too? Are you forgettting that they have a better track record of drafting the right players and coming up with schemes to make them succeed?

I too think that Modrak will have more power with draft decisions, question is, do we have the right coaches who know how to put things together? If yes, then prove it.


I used to be a homer like you . But after 3 losing seasons the cool aid I've been drinking gave me diabetes. It can be cured but right now they have to PROVE it instead of saying the same crap every year "we need to get better. I need to do a better job" .

[Jan Reimers]

There are certainly a number of reasons for pessimism, but there is reason for optimism, too.

Our offseason, as of right this minute, has been as active as I can remember. We have gotten rid of deadwood in Fowler and Preston; severe underachievers in Royal and Dockery; and disgruntled players in Peters and Crowell. Greer is a loss, but we drafted his replacement last year in McKelvin.

We made a major upgrade at center in Hangartner; at WR with TO; and added great depth in Rhodes, McKinney, and Florence. Fitzpatrick and Thomas should help, and we're still talking trading Parrish and Kelsay, and acquiring Waters and Scheffler. At the moment, we have 9 draft picks, including 2 first rounders.

We have promising 2nd year players in Bell, Fine, Bowen, Ellis, McKelvin, Hardy, Johnson and Corner, and effectively a 2nd year guy in Poz, who missed most of his rookie year.

There are certainly holes, but there should also be reason for hope.

[trapezeus]

i think if you are writing in a fan forum, it's safe to say you are a fan. I think we just have different ways of looking at it. For those of us who have been or have turned pessimistic, its relaly more for self preservation than anything else.

I have turned to the pessimistic side. i thought yordad was spot on. every year i get excited and tell everyone who wants to rag on the bills (i live in nyc) that its finally coming together. people look at me like i'm ******ed. and they trash talk the bills and i try to fight back. "we are going 11-5", "the schedule is easier than it looks." "so and so is going to be a lot better this year."

then we get last year's performance. There was nothing good that came out of last season. Last year's complete self destruction (2 wins in the last 10 games?) just confirmed two points that no winning team has. A Front office that misses on picks, free agents and coaches and coaches who don't know when players are ready and when they are not.

In many ways i felt like the detective at the end of "the usual suspects". I was dropping my coffee cup and realizing that our team is bad. And there is very little tangible proof that we improved.

and since the commitment to jauron instead of the commitment to winning, it's really hard to keep fighting with other fellow fans.

There are incredible stories where bad teams make great runs, and that's what we've been forced to root for for 10 years. It's old.

And i'm not even the jerk who says sign all the top talent immediately at record prices. I'm the guy who says, it's obvious that the new paradigm in the NFL is pay for the coach. Pay him a ton, and then skimp on the players because a good coach will unlock hidden talent and motivate guys to play.

Yet the bills will dish out a raise to TO, Evans (who isn't that good if he played on another team), Kelsay, Schobel, etc, but then not give them a coach that knows how to win a close game. Unacceptable.

So yeah, i'm pessimistic about 2009. If you saw this offseason happen to any other NFL team, you'd shake your head.

When Sept 14 rolls around, i'll get out of work early, have my jersey on and hoping like hell that this is the start of a magical run. God knows we all need that.

[kernowboy]

Why is Center now a need? We just signed a guy that the Panthers were reluctant to lose. Of those needs you've highlighted I will fill them for you now.

LT - draft Gerald Cadogan in R2. The Pats compare him to Matt Light which is good enough for me. I predict Cadogan will be Pro-Bowler more quickly than Oher or Andre Smith will be

LG - sign Pete Kendall. There is one season of gas left in the tank yet and he can help the rookie LT above as well as help develop Bell

C- dealt with that

DE - draft Everette Brown.

WLB - draft James Laurinaitis

TE - trade for Tony Scheffler and maybe pick up a TE lower in the draft as well

FB - take Tony Fiammatta in the 6th

FS - take Sherrod Martin in the 3rd. McKelvin speaks very highly of him

Of the rookies we might not need to start any of them, but it will be a kick in the pants to any veteran remaining and will produce an excellent training camp where the cream will rise to the surface

Brown v Denney, Kelsay or Ellis
Cadogan v Bell or Chambers
Laurinaitis v Ellison or Bowen
Martin v Simpson or Wilson
Fiammatta v McIntyre or Schouman

Whoever comes through will be much better for it

[Philagape]

Why is Center now a need? We just signed a guy that the Panthers were reluctant to lose. Of those needs you've highlighted I will fill them for you now.

LT - draft Gerald Cadogan in R2. The Pats compare him to Matt Light which is good enough for me. I predict Cadogan will be Pro-Bowler more quickly than Oher or Andre Smith will be

LG - sign Pete Kendall. There is one season of gas left in the tank yet and he can help the rookie LT above as well as help develop Bell

C- dealt with that

DE - draft Everette Brown.

WLB - draft James Laurinaitis

TE - trade for Tony Scheffler and maybe pick up a TE lower in the draft as well

FB - take Tony Fiammatta in the 6th

FS - take Sherrod Martin in the 3rd. McKelvin speaks very highly of him

Of the rookies we might not need to start any of them, but it will be a kick in the pants to any veteran remaining and will produce an excellent training camp where the cream will rise to the surface

Brown v Denney, Kelsay or Ellis
Cadogan v Bell or Chambers
Laurinaitis v Ellison or Bowen
Martin v Simpson or Wilson
Fiammatta v McIntyre or Schouman

Whoever comes through will be much better for it

Since none of those guys are on the team yet, and even if they were are unproven, how are they answers? Someone has to start at every position, doesn't mean they'll be any good. There's competition on every team, including the bad ones. Doesn't mean crap if there is no "cream."
You can post the same list of names 20 or 50 times a day, that doesn't answer anything. Rookies need to develop, and then do well once they do.
This team is a losing team until they start winning, and not a day sooner.

[mchurchfie]

you exemplify my entire post. your sig is a picture of the absolute lowest point of last season. you take pride in reveling in our failure. you probably get a half guy when espn runs a story about the bills being cursed, and change the channel when they start talking about who were going to draft.

look forward brother. youre like a battered woman in an abusive relationship. you like losing. you WANT to have a reason to complain. take comfort in the fact that the majority of this board shares that view point.
La la la la la la.........:rolleyes: You are right, I am in an abusive relationship. Its called being a Sabres and Bills fan. Maybe you should be on here for more than five posts and understand what a message board is all about before you start getting all righteous and serving judgement on its members and calling them all negative nancies. Maybe you should learn the difference between someone pointing out realistic facts and expectations or someone just actually complaining for the sake of complaining. Do you realize how many threads like yours that we get every year from newbies like you that don't really understand the dynamics of this board? But thats okay, you keep pissing in the wind and talking about how sweet the rain is and Ralphy and Co will hold the fan for you. I'm sure you already have your ticket for the next Toronto game ordered and your temporary T.O. jersey hanging in your closet.;)

[Jeff1220]

I used to be like you JohnnyGold. This team has shown me nothing to make me think they are better than the 7-9 team that they've been. And worse, they've done nothing to show me that they are trying to be better.

[Oldbillsfan]

I am always excited for the Bills this time of year.... But you have to be realistic. How many people bought into their 5-1 record last season? Are they a better team now? The are the KC Royals of the NFL. Hopefully they get lucky.

[THATHURMANATOR]

La la la la la la.........:rolleyes: You are right, I am in an abusive relationship. Its called being a Sabres and Bills fan. Maybe you should be on here for more than five posts and understand what a message board is all about before you start getting all righteous and serving judgement on its members and calling them all negative nancies. Maybe you should learn the difference between someone pointing out realistic facts and expectations or someone just actually complaining for the sake of complaining. Do you realize how many threads like yours that we get every year from newbies like you that don't really understand the dynamics of this board? But thats okay, you keep pissing in the wind and talking about how sweet the rain is and Ralphy and Co will hold the fan for you. I'm sure you already have your ticket for the next Toronto game ordered and your temporay T.O. jersey hanging in your closet.;)
Churchie I want you to calm down..... :(

[SabreEleven]

I get excited about every Buffalo Bills football season. I'm just tired of them stomping on my balls every year...they are sore. Excuse me for learning a lesson.

[mchurchfie]

I get excited about every Buffalo Bills football season. I'm just tired of them stomping on my balls every year...they are sore. Excuse me for learning a lesson.
You wife owns your balls, tell her to take better care of them.

[mchurchfie]

Churchie I want you to calm down..... :(
I can't, I'm still pissed about the Sabres not making the POs.:ill:

[Pinkerton Security]

La la la la la la.........:rolleyes: You are right, I am in an abusive relationship. Its called being a Sabres and Bills fan. Maybe you should be on here for more than five posts and understand what a message board is all about before you start getting all righteous and serving judgement on its members and calling them all negative nancies. Maybe you should learn the difference between someone pointing out realistic facts and expectations or someone just actually complaining for the sake of complaining. Do you realize how many threads like yours that we get every year from newbies like you that don't really understand the dynamics of this board? But thats okay, you keep pissing in the wind and talking about how sweet the rain is and Ralphy and Co will hold the fan for you. I'm sure you already have your ticket for the next Toronto game ordered and your temporay T.O. jersey hanging in your closet.;)

while hes doing that you can all stand on your own soapboxes and talk about how awful Ralph is and how much we suck, and where does that get you? Are you trying to convert us all to "realism"? Can you imagine what a boring board that would be??

Person 1: Holy crap the Bills suck!
Person 2: YEah they do!
Person 1: Um..ok im gonna start the same thread but with a different title about how much the Front office sucks!

[SabreEleven]

no - wait for ALL the facts. If you honestly quit on the Bills when we have 5 months to go til the season starts, then you honestly werent a very good fan to begin with. You can complain all you want but quitting, thats just no good.

The Bills have quit on themselves for the past 10 seasons.

[elltrain22]

Great post dude!!

[SabreEleven]

You wife owns your balls, tell her to take better care of them.

You need to shave, you are irritating them.

[HHURRICANE]

while hes doing that you can all stand on your own soapboxes and talk about how awful Ralph is and how much we suck, and where does that get you? Are you trying to convert us all to "realism"? Can you imagine what a boring board that would be??

Person 1: Holy crap the Bills suck!
Person 2: YEah they do!
Person 1: Um..ok im gonna start the same thread but with a different title about how much the Front office sucks!

Be fair because we have to read all of the posts that go the other way that border dillusional. Peters now sucks, didn't want to be hear, wanted 12 million a year (even though he took 10 million), we are better without him....

This has been a tough off-season already. 7 days and counting.

[SabreEleven]

Did Jauron learn to coach this offseason?

[THATHURMANATOR]

Did Jauron learn to coach this offseason?
I hope! :(

[mchurchfie]

while hes doing that you can all stand on your own soapboxes and talk about how awful Ralph is and how much we suck, and where does that get you? Are you trying to convert us all to "realism"? Can you imagine what a boring board that would be??

Person 1: Holy crap the Bills suck!
Person 2: YEah they do!
Person 1: Um..ok im gonna start the same thread but with a different title about how much the Front office sucks!
Yeah I know, being realistic is are worst enemy.;) No we'll keep it all fantasy.:up: We'll pretend that Ralph is going to take the extra millions he gets from the Toronto games and and spend it on the team. We'll pretend that our O-line is a top ten line in the NFL now that we have traded our Pro Bowl tackle away and shored it up with backups and journeymen. We'll pretend that TO isn't going to start whining about not getting the ball after about the fourth game when Edwards has 40 completions to his RBs and 2 to the wideouts, both of them going to Reed. We'll pretend that after 10 years or so of ineptitude as a coach all of the sudden Jauron is going to turn in the second coming Parcells. Hey, you wouldn't be interested in a bridge I have for sale, would you?;)

[mchurchfie]

You need to shave, you are irritating them.
Great post dude!

[SabreEleven]

I hope! :(

Right there is reason enough for me to get EXCITED!!!!

[SabreEleven]

Great post dude!

How are you talking with your mouth full?

[Jan Reimers]

I simply wish the realists - who are so, well, realistic -would get one simple fact right: The Bills have gone 9 seasons without making the playoffs, not 10. And I'm not going to debate this again. Seasons 2000 through 2008 make 9 seasons. Period.

[SabreEleven]

I simply wish the realists - who are so, well, realistic -would get one simple fact right: The Bills have gone 9 season without making the playoffs, not 10. And I'm not going to debate this again. Seasons 2000 through 2008 make 9 seasons. Period.

Give it about 7 months.

[mchurchfie]

How are you talking with your mouth full?
How do you type without losing your balance when you are on all fours?:limp:

[SabreEleven]

Your mom has a lot of fat that keeps me balanced plus her forehead keeps the lap top nice and steady.

[TigerJ]

I consider myself to be an optimistic realist. I know therre are lot's of issues that have to be settled for the Bills right now, and unless the Bills front office does a real good job in assessing the talent that is on the team and using the draft judiciously to fill them, it could be a very disappointing season. I choose to reserve judgement until I get a lot more information. Who knows, it might be a few games into the season before, I'll really know what to expect out of the way the front office has handled Peters, the offensive line, and the lack of a pass rush the last two years. Until then, I'm simply observiong with interest.

[Jan Reimers]

The one thing I've noticed about the pessimist/realists (one in the same?) is that they live in a static world. A draft pick, for instance, will never be better than even one of our underachieving veterans. Young players don't get appreciably better from their 1st to 2nd, or 2nd to 3rd years, etc., etc.

So even a good smart, motivated 2nd round guard can't possibly replace the slug, Derrick Dockery. Demetrius Bell (7th round pick from a small school) can never develop into Jason Peters (UDFA who played TE in college and had about an 8 on his Wonderlic). Derrick Fine can't grow into a good TE. Bowen, Ellis, Hardy, et. al. will never be any good, etc., etc.

I simply can't understand that point of view.

[HHURRICANE]

The one thing I've noticed about the pessimist/realists (one in the same?) is that they live in a static world. A draft pick, for instance, will never be better than even one of our underachieving veterans. Young players don't get appreciably better from their 1st to 2nd, or 2nd to 3rd years, etc., etc.

So even a good smart, motivated 2nd round guard can't possibly replace the slug, Derrick Dockery. Demetrius Bell (7th round pick from a small school) can never develop into Jason Peters (UDFA who played TE in college and had about an 8 on his Wonderlic). Derrick Fine can't grow into a good TE. Bowen, Ellis, Hardy, et. al. will never be any good, etc., etc.

I simply can't understand that point of view.

You realize that 9 seasons is pretty good proof that the Bills have no idea how to draft or develop talent? Peters was a pure beast. We could have made him a TE and he would have been great.

[Philagape]

The one thing I've noticed about the pessimist/realists (one in the same?) is that they live in a static world. A draft pick, for instance, will never be better than even one of our underachieving veterans. Young players don't get appreciably better from their 1st to 2nd, or 2nd to 3rd years, etc., etc.

So even a good smart, motivated 2nd round guard can't possibly replace the slug, Derrick Dockery. Demetrius Bell (7th round pick from a small school) can never develop into Jason Peters (UDFA who played TE in college and had about an 8 on his Wonderlic). Derrick Fine can't grow into a good TE. Bowen, Ellis, Hardy, et. al. will never be any good, etc., etc.

I simply can't understand that point of view.

Without knowing the future, one can only go on the status quo: Losing. Those are the only available facts.
This is a losing team until things change. Hence the tone.

[Jan Reimers]

I've been a season ticket holder for every one of those 9 years, driving 12 hours to almost every game. I'm at least as disappointed as you, and one of the very worst losers on this board. I frigging hate to lose.

But I won't give up because they've traded Jason Peters or anyone else. I've lived through the good times and the bad times. I've given up temporarily during bad times on more than one occasion.

But I'm a lifetime fan and I'll never give up for good.

[kernowboy]

In one weeks time we could be looking at this as a possible opening day team

QB Trent
RB Fred Jackson with Lynch in the weight room
WR Reed
WR Terrell Owens
WR Evans
LT Gerald Cadogan
LG Pete Kendall
C Hangartner
RG Butler
RT Walker
TE Tony Scheffler

RE Schobel
RT Stroud
LT Williams
LE Everette Brown
SLB James Laurinaitis
MLB Pos
WLB Mitchell
RCB McKelvin
LCB McGee
FS Whitner
SS Scott

Looking at that lineup, we've gotten better in the receivers, at TE, at LG, the defensive line has a far superior pass rush giving both Stroud and Schobel to get to the QB as Brown's speed with give a RT fits if he cannot lock on immediately and the linebacking unit will be better.

Cadogan might take a while to come along but he cannot be any worse than the 2008 version of Peters and will have veteran assistance inside.

A decent and quite possible Day1 of the draft, a free agent pick up and trading for a decent TE probably only need to give up a 4th.

Why panic before next week?

[Jan Reimers]

Without knowing the future, one can only go on the status quo: Losing. Those are the only available facts.
This is a losing team until things change. Hence the tone.
This is sports. Magic can happen. Tampa Bay went to the World Series last year. The Dolphins went from 1-15 to the AFCE Championship. Teams can catch lightning in a bottle and go from worst to first.

I simply choose to approach this from the standpoint that anything can happen, versus taking a doomsday approach. But every fan has his or her unique philosophy, and that's what makes this board so interesting.

[seanbillsfan]

In one weeks time we could be looking at this as a possible opening day team

QB Trent
RB Fred Jackson with Lynch in the weight room
WR Reed
WR Terrell Owens
WR Evans
LT Gerald Cadogan
LG Pete Kendall
C Hangartner
RG Butler
RT Walker
TE Tony Scheffler

RE Schobel
RT Stroud
LT Williams
LE Everette Brown
SLB James Laurinaitis
MLB Pos
WLB Mitchell
RCB McKelvin
LCB McGee
FS Whitner
SS Scott

Looking at that lineup, we've gotten better in the receivers, at TE, at LG, the defensive line has a far superior pass rush giving both Stroud and Schobel to get to the QB as Brown's speed with give a RT fits if he cannot lock on immediately and the linebacking unit will be better.

Cadogan might take a while to come along but he cannot be any worse than the 2008 version of Peters and will have veteran assistance inside.

A decent and quite possible Day1 of the draft, a free agent pick up and trading for a decent TE probably only need to give up a 4th.

Why panic before next week?
If we draft Cadogan in the 2nd I will throw my tv trough the window. He will be a 2nd day pick

[mchurchfie]

The one thing I've noticed about the pessimist/realists (one in the same?) is that they live in a static world. A draft pick, for instance, will never be better than even one of our underachieving veterans. Young players don't get appreciably better from their 1st to 2nd, or 2nd to 3rd years, etc., etc.

So even a good smart, motivated 2nd round guard can't possibly replace the slug, Derrick Dockery. Demetrius Bell (7th round pick from a small school) can never develop into Jason Peters (UDFA who played TE in college and had about an 8 on his Wonderlic). Derrick Fine can't grow into a good TE. Bowen, Ellis, Hardy, et. al. will never be any good, etc., etc.

I simply can't understand that point of view.

When you look at our draft over the last five years and see that basically the same people are running it again this year as then, it is easy not to be overly optimistic about our young players developing into really good players. Kelsay and Denney are perfect examples. Modrack is still the main cog in the drafting dept and he has been influencial over the last five years with it. He has gotten lucky a few times but overhaul our drafts have been very unremarkable considering the draft picks we have had over the last 5-10 years.

[kernowboy]

If we draft Cadogan in the 2nd I will throw my tv trough the window. He will be a 2nd day pick

Except the Pats apparently regard him very highly and are targetting either him or Meredith with their 2nd round pick as Light enters a contract year.

At the combine, he was one of the quicker, stronger, intelligent of all the LTs and actually physically measured up to having one of the longest arms as well.

I think he will be a quiet yet very effective professional and it would not surprise me if he got to the ProBowl before any of the other OTs in the draft.

I imagine the Titan fans were fairly disgusted when they 'reached' for Michael Roos in the 2nd round in 2005.

[trapezeus]

I've been a season ticket holder for every one of those 9 years, driving 12 hours to almost every game. I'm at least as disappointed as you, and one of the very worst losers on this board. I frigging hate to lose.

But I won't give up because they've traded Jason Peters or anyone else. I've lived through the good times and the bad times. I've given up temporarily during bad times on more than one occasion.

But I'm a lifetime fan and I'll never give up for good.

See, but don't confuse pessimism with "giving up on the team". Yeah, you're a fair weather fan if you leave and don't watch the games. but if you are still going to the games, but you've managed your expectations so that you don't cry when JP gets hit at the end of the Jets game to lose a sure win, or TE throwing INT and INT in a very winable MNF game at home or Fancy I missing simple kicks, then you're still the same fan you've always been.

Last year was just too much to deal with. i flew out to Arizona for the game thinking, "this one is in the bag. We have no reason not to end with 10 wins." and week after week jauron and the players showed us reasons why they didn't deserve our support of optimism.

The onus is now on those coaches and players to prove why we shouldn't be booing them every step of the way. And they are failing even in the offseason. They're getting arrested, the FO is unable to even bring in the talent they want through FA, the coaching remains unchanged.

Really, what do they expect from us? The team has become a welfare team. they just expect our money, but they don't want to show us tangible change.

If you saw a different team go through this offseason, you'd laugh at them. Arrests, best on field players leaving, bad coaching sticking around. It's truly pathetic.

And yes, anything can happen. the difference between a bad player and a good player in the NFL is very small. but i just don't trust this coaching staff to bring out the best in these players. I sadly believe that Jauron exceeded expecations with his 7-9 years. i really think we are in store for a real dud. And while i say its not going to hurt because i'm preparing myself, i know it's going to hurt just as bad. i wish we could jsut get to the playoffs and make a run.

[seanbillsfan]

Except the Pats apparently regard him very highly and are targetting either him or Meredith with their 2nd round pick as Light enters a contract year.

At the combine, he was one of the quicker, stronger, intelligent of all the LTs and actually physically measured up to having one of the longest arms as well.

I think he will be a quiet yet very effective professional and it would not surprise me if he got to the ProBowl before any of the other OTs in the draft.

I imagine the Titan fans were fairly disgusted when they 'reached' for Michael Roos in the 2nd round in 2005.
I really like Jason Watkins out of Florida. He was also a former TE who i think will be a steal in the 3rd rd

[mchurchfie]

This is sports. Magic can happen.
Teams like Miami and NE have David Copperfield in their magic dept we have Carrot Top pulling rabbits out of our hats.:ill:

[BAM]

Yeah you learn to ignore certain people over time. There are several people's posts that I automatically skip over because it's gotten to be the same old bull crap over and over.

[mchurchfie]

Yeah you learn to ignore certain people over time. There are several people's posts that I automatically skip over because it's gotten to be the same old bull crap over and over.
You don't skip over mine, do you?:D

[BAM]

No because you only post like twice a month.

[ddaryl]

Yeah you learn to ignore certain people over time. There are several people's posts that I automatically skip over because it's gotten to be the same old bull crap over and over.

let me take a stab at this

HH & OP

[kgun12]

La la la la la la.........:rolleyes: You are right, I am in an abusive relationship. Its called being a Sabres and Bills fan. Maybe you should be on here for more than five posts and understand what a message board is all about before you start getting all righteous and serving judgement on its members and calling them all negative nancies. Maybe you should learn the difference between someone pointing out realistic facts and expectations or someone just actually complaining for the sake of complaining. Do you realize how many threads like yours that we get every year from newbies like you that don't really understand the dynamics of this board? But thats okay, you keep pissing in the wind and talking about how sweet the rain is and Ralphy and Co will hold the fan for you. I'm sure you already have your ticket for the next Toronto game ordered and your temporary T.O. jersey hanging in your closet.;)

:posrep: :bf1: :posrep: :bf1: :posrep: :bf1:

[The Juice Is Loose]

So basically ignore the facts and be a fan. Any chance you can give me some concrete reasons why we'll be better in 2009?

WTF dude! I thought you were "done" and "leaving"

go already!

Your a fruit!

[kgun12]

Here is what the cheerleaders need to realize. The bills have been rebuilding for way to many years. Look what the Fins did last year. It does not take 8, 9 or 10 years to get to the playoffs anymore! Not unless you have a owner that won't pay for talent, a horrible front office a very bad HC and players who get as much or more press in the police blob than on the field. The Fins went from a 1-15 to 11-5 and won their division. How, brought in a great FO, good HC both BTW do not tolerate thug like behavior. So keep drinking from the Kool-Aid, after awhile you don't notice the bad taste!

[Nighthawk]

Be fair because we have to read all of the posts that go the other way that border dillusional. Peters now sucks, didn't want to be hear, wanted 12 million a year (even though he took 10 million), we are better without him....

This has been a tough off-season already. 7 days and counting.

He didn't take 10 million, it was 13.5 million...are you really that stupid? He got new money worth 53 million over 4 years....that equals 13.5 million, plus almost 25 million guaranteed. Stop ignoring the facts of the extension...

[Ingtar33]

Thanks for the post. But i disagree with some basic assumptions.


how can you say our o-line will be terrible this year? terrible compared to what? last years o-line? any o-line from the last DECADE of bills teams that hasn't had a winning season, save 04s 9-7 squad?

I never said the line will be worse then last year. though i suspect they will. And you're right, the last decade has seen some terrible lines. Anyone who's been around for the last decade knows this has been pet peeve number 1 from me. To date, my analysis that the Bills have a poor o-line have been proved again and again.

The most consistently terrible part of the line has been Center... followed by the Guards (it seems to flip around a bit over the last decade, though mostly I'm talking about the RG). Throw in some RT issues... and LT issues. And we've had a pretty poor line for a long time.

You're making two assumptions i don't like in this comment.
1) you're assuming that the line can't get worse. Not true. as bad as our line has been, there have been far worse lines in the league then ours.
2) you're assuming that because it can't get worse, these moves will result in an improvement in the line by the nature of the fact we made moves. in short... anything will make this line better. Well that's not true, as our line can get much worse then it has been.


modrak is clearly taking the reigns in the front office, and for the first time since flutie was running things, he's eliminating question marks. the running game is solid. the wideouts are great. edwards in the qb, and the team and coaching staff believes in him. special teams are great. our secondary is there.

Modrack has been here through the TD debacle... and Levy's 2 year run. He was here for last year's offseason. What gives you confidence that after 9 years... he knows what he's doing? Don't get me wrong. i have a high opinion of the guy. but he's clearly not don't a good job in the FO if this decade is the result.

we eliminated question marks when Levy came in too. that's simply wrong. TD just eliminated everyone... so he doesn't count.

the running BACKS are solid. the run blocking is not.



lbs and our de's need improvement, to be sure, but that doesnt happen overnight. it is, for all intents and purposes, a NEW front office approach, and it will take time to build the team. but to say that this team has gone BACKWARDS from last season is crazy.

without a passrush or a solid front 7 we'll not get beyond 8 wins. You just highlighted problem number one for the defense. and agree with me that it's not been solved.

What new FO approach? Its the same guys in there who built last years team. They look like they're doing the same things.... no... i take that back. they look like they're in a full scale rebuilding mode, in short that they're aiming for 3 years from now.



there is plenty to be excited about for 09.

look, we have a young qb, who was playing his first full season as a starter under a new OC. theyre both back, with a year to build on. we were 7-9 last year, and the cleveland game, the jets game and the niners game all were winnable. yeah yeah yeah, close only counts in handgrenades and horse shoes but guess what? arizona won ugly last year on plenty of occasions, and look where it got them. a field goal here, a non-jp-losman-fumble there, and the team would be that much better.

hopes springs eternal i guess... when you don't have anything solid to point to we can always hope the lucky breaks go for us. Hope is not a strategy i want to hang my hat on. Hope is the strategy someone who has already lost counts on.


i don't give a ***** what john clayton says about our schedule. our schedule is NOT hard. 3 games scare me - the 2 patriots games (as always,) and the titans game. the furthest west we go is kansas city. the team barely has to travel. we lose the home game to the jets in toronto, and the jets are going to be TERRIBLE this year.

lots of hope here too... first of all we're playing something like 13 games agaisnt teams that had the same or a better record then us last year. I agree the Jets will stink... but i don't get where your optimism comes from.



the draft hasnt even happened yet, and were loaded with picks. if we ship parish to pit, we got more coming our way.

Ship the best punt returner in league history out for a day two draft pick is a brilliant move (yes statistically he is). Why would you do this? This is something like shipping out Steve Tasker or Dennis Hester for a 3rd or 4th round draft pick, because they add nothing outside of special teams.

Now Parrish isn't quite Dennis Hester... nor is he in the class of Steve Tasker... but you don't get punt returners in his class often. He's a weapon. we have precious few of those on this team as it is.

The same scouting department that gave us JP and Williams and McCargo in round 1 will be handling this draft. More picks isn't going to matter much unless they can evaluate talent better then that.


you wouldnt know it from reading this board, but we signed one of the best wideouts in the league, and hes going to be our # TWO. our offense will be sick.

interesting assumption...



i for one cant wait for the season to start. going into last season, i knew the bills would be better than the year before... everyone did. and they were. going into this year, i feel the same way. theyve only gotten better, AND THE DRAFT HASNT HAPPENED YET. theyll be a better team, the jets will be a worse team, the dolphins are relying on noodle arm to lead them with a trick offense through a tougher schedule. its gonna be great, i cant wait, see you at the stadium, unless you hang yourselves first.

the bills had the same record last year then they did the year before. they had a weaker schedule last year then the year before. so in theory they got worse... not better.

Hang onto the enthusiasm though. I just am not feeling it.

[ddaryl]

I think Johhny has left the building... See what you all have done

[kernowboy]

We've hired Buddy Nix though

[OpIv37]

I think Johhny has left the building... See what you all have done

who cares? What he calls "pessimism", objective people call "reality." If he can't handle it, it's his problem.

[ddaryl]

who cares? What he calls "pessimism", objective people call "reality." If he can't handle it, it's his problem.


maybe I should have posted the old :sarcasm2: smiley...

[Mike]

This is not a Optimism vs Pessimism... which imply that there there is a decision to be made

When you miss the Playoffs for 10 years and just got a whole lot worse for the sake of saving money, this means one thing = you dont care about winning.

This is not pessimism, this is reality.

It is like saying the sky is dark, it is not a way of looking at things it is the reality.

Now can the sun come out and brightnet the sky, sure it can, but that is not the case right now!

[Jan Reimers]

We have missed the playoffs from 2000 through 2008. That's 9.

[VeggieMan14]

Thank you my thoughts exactly good post

[finfan34]

you all are some depressed mother f'ers.......im glad im a dolphins fan.

[OpIv37]

you all are some depressed mother f'ers.......im glad im a dolphins fan.

I'd love to take a snapshot of Finheaven circa early November 2007- I'm sure everyone was happy-go-lucky.

Try missing the playoffs for 10 straight years then see what kind of mood Fin fans will be in.

And even though being a Bills fan sucks sometimes, I'm glad I don't have to wear teal.

[SabreEleven]

We have missed the playoffs from 2000 through 2008. That's 9.

Does it really matter once you get longer than 3 or 4 years of missing the playoffs?

[SabreEleven]

you all are some depressed mother f'ers.......im glad im a dolphins fan.

So you enjoyed the 1-16 season?

[mchurchfie]

......im glad im a dolphins fan.
I'll bet you weren't two years ago. Don't you have some salon customers to attend to?:limp:

[SABURZFAN]

you all are some depressed mother f'ers.......im glad im a dolphins fan.


i'll take depression over being a Fish fan any day.

[SABURZFAN]

I'll bet you weren't two years ago. Don't you have some salon customers to attend to?:limp:


he cuts male pubic hair for a living??? :shocked:

[thenry20]

To say that our line is better WITHOUT Peters is utterly idiotic. The line is completely in disarray now whether you believe it or not JG. Please explain to us how it IS going to be better this year. TY!

[Throne Logic]

We have missed the playoffs from 2000 through 2008. That's 9.

Heh, heh. Very nice, JR. Isn't this kind like saying, "The glass is one-tenth full"?

Buffalo Bills Football: The inspiration for creative optimism.

[kernowboy]

To say that our line is better WITHOUT Peters is utterly idiotic. The line is completely in disarray now whether you believe it or not JG. Please explain to us how it IS going to be better this year. TY!

If you have been the following the comments about Peters including those made by him, then contract or no contract there is a very good chance he'd have turned up like a slob and been as poor as to have helped.

What we have done is gotten rid of the four poorest performing members of the line in Fowler, Preston, Dockery irrespective of not yet replacing him and whilst loads love him, the Peters of 2008, of which there was no guarantee he would ever return to form. After all he has been plagued by niggling injuries over time which only ever get worse.

We retained 3 of our best performing linemen in Butler, Walker and Chambers who did better than many expected in relief and have a promising lineman in Bell.

We have signed Hangartner who both the Panthers organisation and fans were disappointed to lose, and if it weren't for having both Gross and Peppers coming up for contract in the same year would have been resigned. We have also signed Seth McKinney who despite being injured in 2007 have won the starter position with the Browns was resigned by that organisation in 2008. At the very least the center position and depth is better, even though we have not signed any big names as perceived by the fans at the position.

We still have a few days to go until the draft where we will find some OL help and despite what many fans think, there have been numerous examples of OL men not being selected on Day1 and becoming outstanding linemen. After all, the Packers often found their linemen in Round7 (Timmerman, Tauscher) and managed to keep Favre upright from Day1. There are also some strong recent examples of LT being selected in Round2, starting immediately and performing to a level far above what Peters offered last season (Light, Ugoh, McNeill)

Finally after the draft, there will be a couple of months teams reshape their rosters and balance their caps, and it is quite possible there will be some veterans players made available who fit our OL coaches approach and will be signed. Equally having seen how the draft and subsequent free agency shapes up, we could well offer a contract to someone like Pete Kendall, who can still start to a high level but can also mentor the younger players.

The idea that the OL is set, and that's it is a complete nonsense and fiction.

[Jan Reimers]

Does it really matter once you get longer than 3 or 4 years of missing the playoffs?
Nine years is bad enough. Let's not make it any worse.

[Jan Reimers]

Heh, heh. Very nice, JR. Isn't this kind like saying, "The glass is one-tenth full"?

Buffalo Bills Football: The inspiration for creative optimism.
I just want the realists, who do nothing but present us with facts about how bad the Bills are, to get this one fact right.

[finfan34]

So you enjoyed the 1-16 season?

1-15, learn how to count dumbass