Forget the latest issue

[X-Era]

Forget Peters.

Someone please make an argument that we are better than last years 7-9 squad. Feel free to give us a stellar draft if you like. Just make that argument. I wont speak for Op or HH, but for me, Id like to feel better about where we are at or could head coming out of the draft.

Im willing to listen.

Go!

[kernowboy]

Forget Peters.

Someone please make an argument that we are better than last years 7-9 squad. Feel free to give us a stellar draft if you like. Just make that argument. I wont speak for Op or HH, but for me, Id like to feel better about where we are at or could head coming out of the draft.

Im willing to listen.

Go!

We have started to cut away the deadwood (Dockery) and have plans to deal with other like Kelsay. There will be some cuts after the draft and training camps where if we need some veteran experience we will be able to.

We should be able to trade for a decent TE like Scheffler for the price of someone like Parrish. We have returners but no Tight End

The following draft will cover off a large number of our depth and I have highlighted players I would replace on the roster in brackets

#11 Everette Brown (Kelsay)
#28 James Laurinaitis (Crowell)
#42 Gerald Cadogan (Peters)
#75 Sherrod Martin (Simpson)
#110 Karl Urbik (Dockery)
#121 Dan Gronkowksi (Schouman)
#147 Vaughn Martin (McCargo)
#183 Tony Fiammatta (Omon)
#220 Drew Willy (Hamdam)

The training camp competitions will be big and the team will be better for it.

We've given Edwards a new weapon and a genuine way to avoid double coverage on Evans. We still have a very good secondary and a good running attack.

I think we could quite easily push every team in our conference all the way. I think 9 or 10 wins is not unfeasable.

[HHURRICANE]

Forget Peters.

Someone please make an argument that we are better than last years 7-9 squad. Feel free to give us a stellar draft if you like. Just make that argument. I wont speak for Op or HH, but for me, Id like to feel better about where we are at or could head coming out of the draft.

Im willing to listen.

Go!

Well this would help my state. I'll be serioulsy looking for anything at this point.

[HHURRICANE]

We have started to cut away the deadwood (Dockery) and have plans to deal with other like Kelsay. There will be some cuts after the draft and training camps where if we need some veteran experience we will be able to.

We should be able to trade for a decent TE like Scheffler for the price of someone like Parrish. We have returners but no Tight End

The following draft will cover off a large number of our depth and I have highlighted players I would replace on the roster in brackets

#11 Everette Brown (Kelsay)
#28 James Laurinaitis (Crowell)
#42 Gerald Cadogan (Peters)
#75 Sherrod Martin (Simpson)
#110 Karl Urbik (Dockery)
#121 Dan Gronkowksi (Schouman)
#147 Vaughn Martin (McCargo)
#183 Tony Fiammatta (Omon)
#220 Drew Willy (Hamdam)

The training camp competitions will be big and the team will be better for it.

We've given Edwards a new weapon and a genuine way to avoid double coverage on Evans. We still have a very good secondary and a good running attack.

I think we could quite easily push every team in our conference all the way. I think 9 or 10 wins is not unfeasable.

Scheffler and that draft would potentially keep me on life support with this team.

[Mahdi]

We have started to cut away the deadwood (Dockery) and have plans to deal with other like Kelsay. There will be some cuts after the draft and training camps where if we need some veteran experience we will be able to.

We should be able to trade for a decent TE like Scheffler for the price of someone like Parrish. We have returners but no Tight End

The following draft will cover off a large number of our depth and I have highlighted players I would replace on the roster in brackets

#11 Everette Brown (Kelsay)
#28 James Laurinaitis (Crowell)
#42 Gerald Cadogan (Peters)
#75 Sherrod Martin (Simpson)
#110 Karl Urbik (Dockery)
#121 Dan Gronkowksi (Schouman)
#147 Vaughn Martin (McCargo)
#183 Tony Fiammatta (Omon)
#220 Drew Willy (Hamdam)

The training camp competitions will be big and the team will be better for it.

We've given Edwards a new weapon and a genuine way to avoid double coverage on Evans. We still have a very good secondary and a good running attack.

I think we could quite easily push every team in our conference all the way. I think 9 or 10 wins is not unfeasable.
Lauranitis ruins that draft as does not drafting a TE in the first 3 rounds. Gronkowski is another Schouman, Fine, Euhus, Royal type TE. NO THANKS.

[ddaryl]

we're not going to be better then last year no matter how we draft....

We have Dick Jauron and his crew as coaches. (minus April)

A decent coach would have had us in the playoffs last year. A coaching change this year would have justify a small rebuild / salary purge project we have going on.

Overall I expect a 7-9 season at best....

the only thing that will make me feel better is a OL heavy draft. it may nolt jive with other views, but I want the best OL in football, because I beleive we can win if we can control the LOS on O.

[jdbillsfan]

TO

[Mahdi]

we're not going to be better then last year no matter how we draft....

We have Dick Jauron and his crew as coaches. (minus April)

A decent coach would have had us in the playoffs last year. A coaching change this year would have justify a small rebuild / salary purge project we have going on.

Overall I expect a 7-9 season at best....

the only thing that will make me feel better is a OL heavy draft. it may nolt jive with other views, but I want the best OL in football, because I beleive we can win if we can control the LOS on O.
No coach would have gotten the Bills into the playoffs last year with Kelsay and Denney at DE in a cover 2 no less which requires everything those 2 are not and a weak WR corp.

[HHURRICANE]

we're not going to be better then last year no matter how we draft....

We have Dick Jauron and his crew as coaches. (minus April)

A decent coach would have had us in the playoffs last year. A coaching change this year would have justify a small rebuild / salary purge project we have going on.

Overall I expect a 7-9 season at best....

the only thing that will make me feel better is a OL heavy draft. it may nolt jive with other views, but I want the best OL in football, because I beleive we can win if we can control the LOS on O.

This is exactly why I can't even get excited becuase if the Bills are thinking they are drafting their 2009 playoff roster than either they are nuts or we are for believeing such non-sense.

[kernowboy]

Lauranitis ruins that draft as does not drafting a TE in the first 3 rounds. Gronkowski is another Schouman, Fine, Euhus, Royal type TE. NO THANKS.

We've taken Tony Scheffler instead of drafting a TE. Scheffler has a year remaining on his rookie deal but can provide us with as much performance as any second or third round rookie - he had 40 rec for 645yds and 3 TDs last year having had 49rec for 549yds and 5TDs the year before. Do you expect any rookie to do better?

If Scheffler demands too much at the end of the season, we can use our 2010 round 1 pick to grab Jermaine Gresham, Rob Gronkowski, or Dennis Pitta. All have a more balanced and better skill set bar Pettigrew in this years draft and Pettigrew would only be ranked 3rd.

For me Scheffler is a better option than Jared Cook at #42.

I found an interesting story about Laurinaitis on MSN Foxsports. The general feeling is he has been so good for so long that there is nothing left to do than to try to pick holes in his game that other prospects are not suffering. He would be a massive upgrade over Ellison.

As for Dan Gronkowski, compared to Euhus, Fine and Schouman he is taller, stronger and grew up a Buffalo fan. He is 3-4 inches taller than Fine and Schouman and 20lbs heavier. He is primarily a blocker to use in 2 TE sets and was won of the better competitors at the combine with scouts surprised at the fact he was much stronger and more athletic than realised. Everyone thought Kevin Boss wasn't much of a player coming out of Western Oregon - go ask Jeremy Shockey what he thinks of it as a player now.

[baalworship]

Trent Edwards. If he plays like he did before the head injury we can be better than last year. If he does not play a lot better than we are looking at a top 5 pick.

[kgun12]

Lauranitis ruins that draft as does not drafting a TE in the first 3 rounds. Gronkowski is another Schouman, Fine, Euhus, Royal type TE. NO THANKS.

Really, TE is that important to you? Name the last TE that put a team on it's back and carried them to a SB victory? I'll give you a hint, it was the first SB and he played for GB. The 2 best TE's in the game haven't been able to get their teams a sniff of the SB. Hell SD has had one of the best RB's to go with him, and mam for man SD is twice the team the bills are. Even in KC's hay day with Gonzalas it didn't help. The Bills have so many whole to fill this year that takin a TE in the first 5 rounds would be a joke.

And BTW SD pucked Gates off a delivery truck (UPS I think) to fill in for an injuried TE!

[Mahdi]

Really, TE is that important to you? Name the last TE that put a team on it's back and carried them to a SB victory? I'll give you a hint, it was the first SB and he played for GB. The 2 best TE's in the game haven't been able to get their teams a sniff of the SB. Hell SD has had one of the best RB's to go with him, and mam for man SD is twice the team the bills are. Even in KC's hay day with Gonzalas it didn't help. The Bills have so many whole to fill this year that takin a TE in the first 5 rounds would be a joke.

And BTW SD pucked Gates off a delivery truck (UPS I think) to fill in for an injuried TE!
TEs may not have won superbowls for a team but Witten, Gates, Sharpe, Gonzalez, Clarke, Daniels, Winslow etc. are key players in their offenses and one of the main reasons their teams are usually ranked in the top 10 in offense. The Bills offense has been horrible for years.

Forget Superbowl, I just hope our offense can crack the top 15 for once and a receiving TE such as those I mentioned can be major pieces to our O.

[DRELOVESBills]

you guys can't put fine in the same category as royal because he was a rookie last year!! they didn't give fine many chances but when they did he did very well!!

[TigerJ]

I need to see the draft before I could even think about making that argument. At the moment, we are clearly worse than last season, but it may not stay that way.

[kgun12]

TEs may not have won superbowls for a team but Witten, Gates, Sharpe, Gonzalez, Clarke, Daniels, Winslow etc. are key players in their offenses and one of the main reasons their teams are usually ranked in the top 10 in offense. The Bills offense has been horrible for years.

Forget Superbowl, I just hope our offense can crack the top 15 for once and a receiving TE such as those I mentioned can be major pieces to our O.

Most of the teams you mentions also had a better than average WR corps, O line, RB and QB. Even during the McKeller's Kgun offense, the Bills had a great line, RB's QB and WR's. We are OK to at QB, below at line and OK at WR and RB with Lynch gone for 3 games. We have huge holes at DE, LB OL, DT, WR (TO is only here 1 year). Again the TE position is last on any list I would put together the first 5 rounds. Who knows maybe the is a FedX guy just waiting for the Bills to call.

[EDS]

TEs may not have won superbowls for a team but Witten, Gates, Sharpe, Gonzalez, Clarke, Daniels, Winslow etc. are key players in their offenses and one of the main reasons their teams are usually ranked in the top 10 in offense. The Bills offense has been horrible for years.

Forget Superbowl, I just hope our offense can crack the top 15 for once and a receiving TE such as those I mentioned can be major pieces to our O.

I really think TE has droped way down the list of needs with TO on board. Sure it would be nice to have a good TE but at this point there are so many other holes to fill, that I would put TE at most 6th or 7th as far as team needs (after OT, DE, OG, LB, S and DT (if you value depth, here, which I do)) heading into the draft.

[Mahdi]

Most of the teams you mentions also had a better than average WR corps, O line, RB and QB. Even during the McKeller's Kgun offense, the Bills had a great line, RB's QB and WR's. We are OK to at QB, below at line and OK at WR and RB with Lynch gone for 3 games. We have huge holes at DE, LB OL, DT, WR (TO is only here 1 year). Again the TE position is last on any list I would put together the first 5 rounds. Who knows maybe the is a FedX guy just waiting for the Bills to call.
I think since we haven't had a decent TE in 15 years that the priority for a TE is very high.

TO is only here 1 year so getting a TE now that can be a steady contributor in 2010 is important.

The other thing we have to consider is that Trent loves checkdowns and safety valves and an athletic receiving TE is exactly what he needs in the middle of the field.

[GreedoII]

Your question should be asked after the draft or when training camp opens. Deals are still yet to be done my friend. So stop crying....

A stupid premature thread....

[OpIv37]

TO

TO does NOT make us better unless we can protect the QB.

[OpIv37]

We have started to cut away the deadwood (Dockery) and have plans to deal with other like Kelsay. There will be some cuts after the draft and training camps where if we need some veteran experience we will be able to.

We should be able to trade for a decent TE like Scheffler for the price of someone like Parrish. We have returners but no Tight End

The following draft will cover off a large number of our depth and I have highlighted players I would replace on the roster in brackets

#11 Everette Brown (Kelsay)
#28 James Laurinaitis (Crowell)
#42 Gerald Cadogan (Peters)
#75 Sherrod Martin (Simpson)
#110 Karl Urbik (Dockery)
#121 Dan Gronkowksi (Schouman)
#147 Vaughn Martin (McCargo)
#183 Tony Fiammatta (Omon)
#220 Drew Willy (Hamdam)

The training camp competitions will be big and the team will be better for it.

We've given Edwards a new weapon and a genuine way to avoid double coverage on Evans. We still have a very good secondary and a good running attack.

I think we could quite easily push every team in our conference all the way. I think 9 or 10 wins is not unfeasable.

This may be the most delusional post I've ever read. Rookies pushing vets for positions in camp is going to make this team better? One draft is going to make a team that lost four starters on offense (3 on the OL alone) suddenly competitive in a division that swept us last year?

Seriously, this team is doing a fair job of dumping some of the trash, but a pathetic job of replacing them with better players. You honestly think a bunch of rookies can come in and not just match what we did last year but actually improve? that's simply naive. On top of that, your whole argument is based around a hypothetical draft- those players may or may not be available, and even if they are, this moronic FO may or may not actually pick them.

Other than TO, what position on this team is better than last year? Not a single one.

[X-Era]

We have started to cut away the deadwood (Dockery) and have plans to deal with other like Kelsay. There will be some cuts after the draft and training camps where if we need some veteran experience we will be able to.

I had not thought about this but its reasonable to think that we could grab a player, maybe even after training camp cuts. Kendall Simmons is still an option.

We should be able to trade for a decent TE like Scheffler for the price of someone like Parrish. We have returners but no Tight End

The following draft will cover off a large number of our depth and I have highlighted players I would replace on the roster in brackets

#11 Everette Brown (Kelsay)- Love the pick
#28 James Laurinaitis (Crowell)- I think DB might disagree that he could play OLB, maybe you mean we move Poz outside... I wouldnt mind that
#42 Gerald Cadogan (Peters)- Depth, OK, but he wont replace him day one
#75 Sherrod Martin (Simpson)
#110 Karl Urbik (Dockery)
#121 Dan Gronkowksi (Schouman)
#147 Vaughn Martin (McCargo)
#183 Tony Fiammatta (Omon)
#220 Drew Willy (Hamdam)

The training camp competitions will be big and the team will be better for it.

We've given Edwards a new weapon and a genuine way to avoid double coverage on Evans. We still have a very good secondary and a good running attack.

I think we could quite easily push every team in our conference all the way. I think 9 or 10 wins is not unfeasable.

Overall I feel a bit better, but I stillcant back this statement

[X-Era]

This may be the most delusional post I've ever read. Rookies pushing vets for positions in camp is going to make this team better? One draft is going to make a team that lost four starters on offense (3 on the OL alone) suddenly competitive in a division that swept us last year?

Seriously, this team is doing a fair job of dumping some of the trash, but a pathetic job of replacing them with better players. You honestly think a bunch of rookies can come in and not just match what we did last year but actually improve? that's simply naive. On top of that, your whole argument is based around a hypothetical draft- those players may or may not be available, and even if they are, this moronic FO may or may not actually pick them.

Other than TO, what position on this team is better than last year? Not a single one.

I really agree. The goal going into the offseason was to get significantly better and we simply have not done that. At the very least we are very much less stable.

[kgun12]

I think since we haven't had a decent TE in 15 years that the priority for a TE is very high.

TO is only here 1 year so getting a TE now that can be a steady contributor in 2010 is important.

The other thing we have to consider is that Trent loves checkdowns and safety valves and an athletic receiving TE is exactly what he needs in the middle of the field.

You are correct with most of this post. TO is thankfully only here 1 year, so we are going to need another WR, so drafting one this year is more important than TE.

Trent can only checkdown, and without a good OL he won't have time to checkdown, which makes dratin OL WAY more important than OL.

Not having a good TE for 15 years is not a good reason to draft TE.

Let's be honest here, TE has gained importance on this board and throughout the NFL fan base for one reason, to many folks live in the fantasy football world. Drafting a TE is way more important in the fantasy than the real world, seriously!

[OpIv37]

Your question should be asked after the draft or when training camp opens. Deals are still yet to be done my friend. So stop crying....

A stupid premature thread....

And it begins.....

Every year, myself and several other posters are critical of this team for not doing enough in FA.

Everyone says "wait until the draft."

The draft comes and goes, and the Bills either reach or wait until the later rounds to fill obvious holes ("or both").

Everyone says "wait until the June 1 cuts."

The June 1 cuts come and no one of value is available.

Everyone says "wait until preseason."

Preseason comes and the starters play like garbage.

Everyone says "wait until the regular season starts- preseason isn't a good indicator."

Then guess what? The season starts and the team sucks, just like some of us have been saying since April.

Long story short, this team has at least 5 glaring holes- LG, LT (or RT if Walker moves), DE, OLB and TE. That simply can't be filled in one draft or from signing other teams' junk after June 1. We need to CLOSE the talent gap between ourselves and the other team in the division, and they are also allowed to draft and sign guys after June 1. It simply can't be done, at least not by this moron FO.

We are drafting for the future and 2009 is a wash. I can't make you accept that now, but you'll be forced to accept it come September when this team is garbage on the field yet again.

[Mahdi]

This may be the most delusional post I've ever read. Rookies pushing vets for positions in camp is going to make this team better? One draft is going to make a team that lost four starters on offense (3 on the OL alone) suddenly competitive in a division that swept us last year?

Seriously, this team is doing a fair job of dumping some of the trash, but a pathetic job of replacing them with better players. You honestly think a bunch of rookies can come in and not just match what we did last year but actually improve? that's simply naive. On top of that, your whole argument is based around a hypothetical draft- those players may or may not be available, and even if they are, this moronic FO may or may not actually pick them.

Other than TO, what position on this team is better than last year? Not a single one.
Its really not that far fetched.

Im pretty sure the Falcons drafted Ryan, Baker and Curtis Lofton who all started at crucial positions as rookies and took them to the playoffs.

Dolphins started Long, Langford and Merling as rookies on their OL and DL and made the playoffs as well.

[Mitchell55]

Got rid of a distraction

Got a HOF reciever

Upgraded C position

Kind of upgraded G

Trying to trade dead weight

Replaced Greer

Finally done with Royal

Got a great backup

[kgun12]

And it begins.....

Every year, myself and several other posters are critical of this team for not doing enough in FA.

Everyone says "wait until the draft."

The draft comes and goes, and the Bills either reach or wait until the later rounds to fill obvious holes ("or both").

Everyone says "wait until the June 1 cuts."

The June 1 cuts come and no one of value is available.

Everyone says "wait until preseason."

Preseason comes and the starters play like garbage.

Everyone says "wait until the regular season starts- preseason isn't a good indicator."

Then guess what? The season starts and the team sucks, just like some of us have been saying since April.

Long story short, this team has at least 5 glaring holes- LG, LT (or RT if Walker moves), DE, OLB and TE. That simply can't be filled in one draft or from signing other teams' junk after June 1. We need to CLOSE the talent gap between ourselves and the other team in the division, and they are also allowed to draft and sign guys after June 1. It simply can't be done, at least not by this moron FO.

We are drafting for the future and 2009 is a wash. I can't make you accept that now, but you'll be forced to accept it come September when this team is garbage on the field yet again.

OP I could have said it better, but don't bust there bubble. They enjoy the fantasy, sooner or later the will realize what we already know. With free agency and good drafting, no team should be as bad as the bills have for so long!

[OpIv37]

Its really not that far fetched.

Im pretty sure the Falcons drafted Ryan, Baker and Curtis Lofton who all started at crucial positions as rookies and took them to the playoffs.

Dolphins started Long, Langford and Merling as rookies on their OL and DL and made the playoffs as well.

Miami also had an experienced QB and both of those teams have better coaching and better personnel doing the drafting.

Who was the last draft pick that the Bills made that actually had an impact early in year 1? I can't think of a single one. Maybe Lynch.

[Mahdi]

You are correct with most of this post. TO is thankfully only here 1 year, so we are going to need another WR, so drafting one this year is more important than TE.

Trent can only checkdown, and without a good OL he won't have time to checkdown, which makes dratin OL WAY more important than OL.

Not having a good TE for 15 years is not a good reason to draft TE.

Let's be honest here, TE has gained importance on this board and throughout the NFL fan base for one reason, to many folks live in the fantasy football world. Drafting a TE is way more important in the fantasy than the real world, seriously!
Again, Colts, Chargers, Cowboys, Chiefs offenses wouldn't be nearly as good or tough to defend without their TEs. Same with Houston, Denver and Washington.

[Mahdi]

Miami also had an experienced QB and both of those teams have better coaching and better personnel doing the drafting.

Who was the last draft pick that the Bills made that actually had an impact early in year 1? I can't think of a single one. Maybe Lynch.
Mckelvin had an impact last year. Offense was just too bad to take advantage of the field position he consistently gave them.

And all our assumptions are based on the assumption the Bills will draft the right guys. If I didn't have faith that the Bills could draft the right players I would just not be here wasting my time talking about the draft.

[kid mickey]

Peters replacement Michael Oher
Dockery replacement Alex Mack
Royal replacement Chase Coffman
Crowell replacement Marcus Freeman
situational rusher Michael Johnson
simpson replacement whitner
scott replacement wendling
every other draft pick will be depth

[Mahdi]

Peters replacement Michael Oher
Dockery replacement Alex Mack
Royal replacement Chase Coffman
Crowell replacement Marcus Freeman
situational rusher Michael Johnson
simpson replacement whitner
scott replacement wendling
every other draft pick will be depth
How are we getting Michael Johnson? Where are we picking him in the draft?

[OpIv37]

Mckelvin had an impact last year. Offense was just too bad to take advantage of the field position he consistently gave them.

And all our assumptions are based on the assumption the Bills will draft the right guys. If I didn't have faith that the Bills could draft the right players I would just not be here wasting my time talking about the draft.

McKelvin had an impact at the END of last year. We have 5 positions where we need starters who can come in and help from Day 1. Few if any rookies can actually do that, and our FO has shown ZERO ability to find them.

Why should you have any faith that the Bills can make the right picks? Look at the crap they've pulled in the last few drafts:

Whitner- Reach, never lived up to expectations
Traded up for McCargo- complete bust
Lynch- good but has attitude problems
Traded up for Poz- hasn't lived up to expectations
McKelvin- Good
Hardy- surpassed by Steve Johnson

There are a few other decent players selected- Kyle Williams, John DiGiorgio, etc, but the only impact player has been Lynch. And keep in mind that the guys in the FO now were there for both the Levy and Donahoe regimes.

So, if you have faith that this FO can draft properly, it's based on hope and not on evidence.

[OpIv37]

Peters replacement Michael Oher
Dockery replacement Alex Mack
Royal replacement Chase Coffman
Crowell replacement Marcus Freeman
situational rusher Michael Johnson
simpson replacement whitner
scott replacement wendling
every other draft pick will be depth

you think this team can win starting 5 rookies and Wendling? Give me a ****ing break.

[kernowboy]

This may be the most delusional post I've ever read. Rookies pushing vets for positions in camp is going to make this team better? One draft is going to make a team that lost four starters on offense (3 on the OL alone) suddenly competitive in a division that swept us last year?

Seriously, this team is doing a fair job of dumping some of the trash, but a pathetic job of replacing them with better players. You honestly think a bunch of rookies can come in and not just match what we did last year but actually improve? that's simply naive. On top of that, your whole argument is based around a hypothetical draft- those players may or may not be available, and even if they are, this moronic FO may or may not actually pick them.

Other than TO, what position on this team is better than last year? Not a single one.

This is the most pathetic response in the history of this board and simply demanded a response.

Any player coming into camp which challenge the player currently in that position. At the very least, the player in position will have to up his game to retain possession of the starting role. If you haven't heard of it before it is called training camp competition.

For how long have people *****ed about Fowler & Preston. We get a guy who the Panthers didn't want to lose and before he's taken a snap so-called fans are whining about him. Dockery and Peters were absolutely shocking on the left hand side and it really stretches the imagination to think that any other combination could so easily give up 19.5 sacks between them.

And in this threat EdwardsEra asked for someone to make the argument about where we could be coming out of the draft - of course it is hypothetical, but we could realistically we could select all of these guys. And if Tony Ugoh, Matt Light and Marcus McNeill can start at LT from Day1, a 3year performer who has moved up in the draft mocks and had a stand up and look combine can ...

Don't you get the whole thing is of course about speculation but some of us are tired of your constant whining, OpIv37

I notice you've lacked the courage to offer your alternatives. Idiot

[kgun12]

Again, Colts, Chargers, Cowboys, Chiefs offenses wouldn't be nearly as good or tough to defend without their TEs. Same with Houston, Denver and Washington.

So let see, they AFC championship game was Pitt and Balt

Pitt TE catches for the year: 65
Balt TE catches for the year: 38

NFC championship game Philly and ARI

Philly TE catches for the year: 66
ARI TE catches for the year: 25

Bills TE catches for the year: 58

Your right TE is RELLY important to a teams offensive success! Again a fantasy football stat!

[OpIv37]

This is the most pathetic response in the history of this board and simply demanded a response.

Any player coming into camp which challenge the player currently in that position. At the very least, the player in position will have to up his game to retain possession of the starting role. If you haven't heard of it before it is called training camp competition.

For how long have people *****ed about Fowler & Preston. We get a guy who the Panthers didn't want to lose and before he's taken a snap so-called fans are whining about him. Dockery and Peters were absolutely shocking on the left hand side and it really stretches the imagination to think that any other combination could so easily give up 19.5 sacks between them.

And in this threat EdwardsEra asked for someone to make the argument about where we could be coming out of the draft - of course it is hypothetical, but we could realistically we could select all of these guys. And if Tony Ugoh, Matt Light and Marcus McNeill can start at LT from Day1, a 3year performer who has moved up in the draft mocks and had a stand up and look combine can ...

Don't you get the whole thing is of course about speculation but some of us are tired of your constant whining, OpIv37

I notice you've lacked the courage to offer your alternatives. Idiot

The player will have to up their game during camp and preseason. it does NOT make that player any more talented once they hit the field. Lack of talent cannot be accommodated by camp competition- the premise is simply absurd.

For the last time, HANGARTNER WAS NOT A NAMED STARTER. He was only starting due to injury. There's no evidence that he's any better than the guys we have, and he still has to go up with the brutal 3-4 NT's in the AFCE.

Yeah, Dock and Peters were bad this year. And so far, we're replacing them with either a) rookies or b) the guys who were BEHIND them on the bench. And you think that's going to make us BETTER? Again, the premise is simply absurd. Your argument is because some other players on some other teams in some other years started at LT, then the Bills can potentially find an LT in the draft too? Come on- that's using the exception to prove the rule and has NOTHING to do with our specific player who will be our LT next year.

Alternatives? What difference does that make? I'm not trying to find alternatives- I'm trying to analyze the Bills' chances of winning in 2009. Maybe there are alternatives, maybe there aren't- but a lack of alternatives won't make the product on the field any better. This is just a red herring you are using to distract from the fact that you have no response for my so-called "whining". The low-brow resort to personal attacks at the end of your post further shows the weakness of your position.

And some of us are sick of this head-in-the-sand optimism and the constant defense of this crappy FO and crappy players who have kept our team from winning for so long.

Again, I can't make you or anyone else accept reality now, but you'll be force to accept it come September.

[kernowboy]

All your doing is providing a soap box to your own negative opinions hoping some my listen.

You'll only be happy with the LA or Toronto Bills.

I see no reason why a rookie cannot come in and start if the veteran they replaced were poor. I cannot see why we cannot pick up a decent veteran during the training camp cuts.

The Pats have been building Championship teams off other sides cast offs for years.

Until we have a Daniel Snyder-type owner playing Madden football for real, you and your type will NEVER be happy.

[OpIv37]

All your doing is providing a soap box to your own negative opinions hoping some my listen.

You'll only be happy with the LA or Toronto Bills.

I see no reason why a rookie cannot come in and start if the veteran they replaced were poor. I cannot see why we cannot pick up a decent veteran during the training camp cuts.

The Pats have been building Championship teams off other sides cast offs for years.

Until we have a Daniel Snyder-type owner playing Madden football for real, you and your type will NEVER be happy.

Once again, you have no argument so you make the discussion about me.

There are two problems with your rookie argument. First, in the case of Peters, many of you are grossly underestimating him. No rookie can come in and play at his level. Second, we're not talking about A rookie, were talking about several- possibly two on the OL alone plus a TE. It takes rookies time to adjust to the game at the NFL level- that's just a fact. We simply can't expect either rookies or the guys who were backing up the very vets that you're criticizing last year to go in and be competitive with NE or even Miami (and we play NE week 1, so the rookies won't even have a chance to improve).

The Pats are much better at finding talent than we are, be it from the draft or FA.

"me and my type" only need one thing to be happy: WINNING. I don't care if they do it by going Danny Snyder or by drafting well or by getting Robert Kraft drunk and swapping our whole roster for theirs (except Wilfork- they can keep that piece of trash). You accuse me of not being a fan, but somehow it never occurred to you that the very reason why I'm so upset about this team is because I'm a huge fan and I'm sick of this crap that they've been pulling for so long. I just want to see them win, and I simply can't see them doing that by going into the draft with so many glaring holes and hoping for the best. It's not logical given this FO's past draft history and the time it takes for rookies to develop.

[kgun12]

All your doing is providing a soap box to your own negative opinions hoping some my listen.

You'll only be happy with the LA or Toronto Bills.

I see no reason why a rookie cannot come in and start if the veteran they replaced were poor. I cannot see why we cannot pick up a decent veteran during the training camp cuts.

The Pats have been building Championship teams off other sides cast offs for years.

Until we have a Daniel Snyder-type owner playing Madden football for real, you and your type will NEVER be happy.

This is why the Bills orginization doesn't feel the need to spend money on makin this team a winner.

1. You'll only be happy with the LA or Toronto Bills

They know they hold Bills ans hostage. If we don't buy tickey to their bad product they leave cause nobody is coming to the games. We sell out so they say see, these suckers will pay for **** as long as we threaten to move!

2. I see no reason why a rookie cannot come in and start if the veteran they replaced were poor. I cannot see why we cannot pick up a decent veteran during the training camp cuts.

One rookie maybe, but we the Bills still have wholes at all the other spots. You can't draft 6 rookies and expect them to all play well.

3. The Pats have been building Championship teams off other sides cast offs for years.

This is an apples to oranges debate! There owner will spend money when they need to, the free agents they bring in produce for several reasons, they have a great vetern leadership base, they bring in FA that have a proven tract record or great up side. BTW the great upside players don't break there bank i.e. Wes Welker they didn't over pay when they signed him. They have a pretty good coach that doesn't take any of his players crap, or stands for the off field crap. BTW PArcells doesn't either, how did they do last year?

4. Until we have a Daniel Snyder-type owner playing Madden football for real, you and your type will NEVER be happy

Snyder hasn't won crap, so maybe you should use NE or Pitts owner as your example. BTW Pitt doesn't over pay or tolerate the players to run the team either!

[kernowboy]

So I've said we trade for a 3 year veteran TE, Tony Scheffler, and bring in a very experienced LG Pete Kendall to assist any LT whether it be Bell or a draft pick. Its the way many teams start a rookie. We could be waiting to see what happens after the draft - depending on who teams select there may be some interesting players available as teams balance their cap and rosters.

As for backups, Butler and Walker were starters, Hangartner has started 27 of 54 games including 8 last year and many Panthers fans were very complimentary as to how he performed, whilst we could easily pick up Kendall who has 188 starts.

With a rookie LT in Ross Verba, the Packers got to the superbowl in his rookie year.

You just revel in misery.

Where in my team have I suggested starting 2 rookies on the OL and a rookie TE?

[OpIv37]

So I've said we trade for a 3 year veteran TE, Tony Scheffler, and bring in a very experienced LG Pete Kendall to assist any LT whether it be Bell or a draft pick. Its the way many teams start a rookie. We could be waiting to see what happens after the draft - depending on who teams select there may be some interesting players available as teams balance their cap and rosters.

As for backups, Butler and Walker were starters, Hangartner has started 27 of 54 games including 8 last year and many Panthers fans were very complimentary as to how he performed, whilst we could easily pick up Kendall who has 188 starts.

With a rookie LT in Ross Verba, the Packers got to the superbowl in his rookie year.

You just revel in misery.

Where in my team have I suggested starting 2 rookies on the OL and a rookie TE?

I'd feel much better about this team if we brought in Kendall and traded for Scheffler, but do you really think this FO is going to do it? If so, what's taking them so long?

Butler and Walker are replacing.... Butler and Walker. I'm not worried about them. I'm worried about who's replacing Peters and Dockery.

There's no point in arguing Hangartner- you're convinced, I'm not- and neither of us is going to gain any ground on that one.

I revel in misery? Sorry, but how would you even know? When was the last time this team created anything but misery?

[Mahdi]

So let see, they AFC championship game was Pitt and Balt

Pitt TE catches for the year: 65
Balt TE catches for the year: 38

NFC championship game Philly and ARI

Philly TE catches for the year: 66
ARI TE catches for the year: 25

Bills TE catches for the year: 58

Your right TE is RELLY important to a teams offensive success! Again a fantasy football stat!
Yer grouping the stat and it is misleading that way. Im talking about having ONE TE that can cause match up problems for LBs and Safeties.

Pittsburgh may not have had a ton of TE receptions but Heath Miller was 12th on the list of TEs in 08 and gives defenses a hard time matching up. That makes their offense better.

Also, Owen Daniels and the Texans are #3 offense

Clark and Indi #15
Gates and SD #11
Witten and Dallas #13
Shockey and NO # 1

The 5 best TEs in the game elevate their offenses to top 15 status.

Im not talking about overall production from the TE position for a team. Im talking about having that one guy that defenses have to account for on every play.

Gonzalez is obviously top 5 but his team sucks.

[kernowboy]

I'd feel much better about this team if we brought in Kendall and traded for Scheffler, but do you really think this FO is going to do it? If so, what's taking them so long?

Butler and Walker are replacing.... Butler and Walker. I'm not worried about them. I'm worried about who's replacing Peters and Dockery.

There's no point in arguing Hangartner- you're convinced, I'm not- and neither of us is going to gain any ground on that one.

I revel in misery? Sorry, but how would you even know? When was the last time this team created anything but misery?

With Kendall they are possibly waiting to see who comes available after the draft. Why sign someone for $4m and then discover a better fit became available? They made this mistake with Dockery, jumping immediately rather to see a better option - once bitten, twice shy.

With Scheffler, it takes two to trade and it is quite possible that we are waiting to see if we can trade Parrish to the Steelers for their 3rd which we can send to the Broncos. They could be asking for our 3rd which the Front Office may feel is too high. I expect some movement in the next couple of days if anything will happen

[OpIv37]

With Kendall they are possibly waiting to see who comes available after the draft. Why sign someone for $4m and then discover a better fit became available? They made this mistake with Dockery, jumping immediately rather to see a better option - once bitten, twice shy.

With Scheffler, it takes two to trade and it is quite possible that we are waiting to see if we can trade Parrish to the Steelers for their 3rd which we can send to the Broncos. They could be asking for our 3rd which the Front Office may feel is too high. I expect some movement in the next couple of days if anything will happen

I think you're just asking too much of this FO. They're not known for big moves, and they already made two this off-season with the Peters trade and the TO signing. I just don't see them trading Parrish then trading the pick for another player and signing Kendall- that's far more active than they like to be. And I'm not even saying that to be critical at this point- for better or worse, it's simply not how they operate.

[kgun12]

Yer grouping the stat and it is misleading that way. Im talking about having ONE TE that can cause match up problems for LBs and Safeties.

Pittsburgh may not have had a ton of TE receptions but Heath Miller was 12th on the list of TEs in 08 and gives defenses a hard time matching up. That makes their offense better.

Also, Owen Daniels and the Texans are #3 offense

Clark and Indi #15
Gates and SD #11
Witten and Dallas #13
Shockey and NO # 1

The 5 best TEs in the game elevate their offenses to top 15 status.

Im not talking about overall production from the TE position for a team. Im talking about having that one guy that defenses have to account for on every play.

Gonzalez is obviously top 5 but his team sucks.

and I'm saying that TE is about important to this team right now as the Jills are to crowd noise. Nice to have in a perfect world, but worthless with so many holes to fill! Again Te stats are really important in the fantasy world.

[X-Era]

and I'm saying that TE is about important to this team right now as the Jills are to crowd noise. Nice to have in a perfect world, but worthless with so many holes to fill! Again Te stats are really important in the fantasy world.

I disagree, TE is an issue that needs to be addressed and has been for a long time. Trent is better with a quality pass catching TE.

[OpIv37]

Got rid of a distraction

Got a HOF reciever

Upgraded C position

Kind of upgraded G

Trying to trade dead weight

Replaced Greer

Finally done with Royal

Got a great backup

Got Rid of a talented distraction and replaced him with no one.

Got a HOF receiver with a QB who may or may not be able to get him the ball.

Did not upgrade C- a change is not automatically an upgrade

It's impossible to upgrade G when we haven't added a G yet.

Trying to? Effort doesn't make the team better- results do.

Replaced Greer with Florence- that's a downgrade- there was no reason to replace Greer.

Done with Royal= Good. No replacement=bad.

Great backup what? If you mean Fitzy, he's no better than Losman.

[X-Era]

Got Rid of a talented distraction and replaced him with no one.

Got a HOF receiver with a QB who may or may not be able to get him the ball.

Did not upgrade C- a change is not automatically an upgrade

It's impossible to upgrade G when we haven't added a G yet.

Trying to? Effort doesn't make the team better- results do.

Replaced Greer with Florence- that's a downgrade- there was no reason to replace Greer.

Done with Royal= Good. No replacement=bad.

Great backup what? If you mean Fitzy, he's no better than Losman.

A very good assessment.

No, I think we are banking heavily, and at most spots solely, on the draft. I hope it works, but I have serious doubts.