Someone please explain Robert Ayers...

[Tatonka]

I have posted it in several different threads and yet to see a real answer as to what it is that has people excited over Robert Ayers, the DE from Tennessee.

For the life of me I can't understand why he should be considered a 1st round prospect. It appears to me that he is 100% potential and 0% production.

He was not a starter at Tennessee until last year. A lot of that, by his own admission, was due to his lack of maturity. Once he became a starter last year, he finished the season with 3.5 sacks. Per Gill Brandt on Sirius, 3 of those sacks came on 3rd downs where he slid inside and played tackle, so that is .5 sacks in an entire season for a starting defensive end.

I know he is strong.. i know he is fast.. but he is no where near a finished product. if you think we will get any more production out of him that ellis got last year, your expectations are too high. he couldnt produce at all at the college level as a pass rusher.

He did well against the run, as shown by his 15.5 tackles for a loss, but i just can not see how this guy warrants a 1st round pick. and before you say, every pick is based on potential, i am aware of that. but most of these guys have some stats to back that up.. every guy in the 1st round that i can see has some major production to show for their time as a starter.. but ayers just doesnt have the production that i want from a DE that is supposed to be the savior.

at least even Maybin, who only had 1 year of production, was a beast for 1 year.. i dont think i would be thrilled with maybin at 11, but god, at least he has some sacks, which are pretty important for a defensive end that is supposed to help with the pass rush.

it just seems like ayers had a good senior bowl and they kept showing the video of him owning an off balance LT in practice and throwing him to the ground and all the sudden he is flying up the boards. that spells disaster to me.

so can the people that keep saying they would be fine with an ayers pick please chime in? i am really looking for someone to make me understand why he would be a good pick, because i am sure he will be our pick, since i would hate it so much.

[Mahdi]

I have posted it in several different threads and yet to see a real answer as to what it is that has people excited over Robert Ayers, the DE from Tennessee.

For the life of me I can't understand why he should be considered a 1st round prospect. It appears to me that he is 100% potential and 0% production.

He was not a starter at Tennessee until last year. A lot of that, by his own admission, was due to his lack of maturity. Once he became a starter last year, he finished the season with 3.5 sacks. Per Gill Brandt on Sirius, 3 of those sacks came on 3rd downs where he slid inside and played tackle, so that is .5 sacks in an entire season for a starting defensive end.

I know he is strong.. i know he is fast.. but he is no where near a finished product. if you think we will get any more production out of him that ellis got last year, your expectations are too high. he couldnt produce at all at the college level as a pass rusher.

He did well against the run, as shown by his 15.5 tackles for a loss, but i just can not see how this guy warrants a 1st round pick. and before you say, every pick is based on potential, i am aware of that. but most of these guys have some stats to back that up.. every guy in the 1st round that i can see has some major production to show for their time as a starter.. but ayers just doesnt have the production that i want from a DE that is supposed to be the savior.

at least even Maybin, who only had 1 year of production, was a beast for 1 year.. i dont think i would be thrilled with maybin at 11, but god, at least he has some sacks, which are pretty important for a defensive end that is supposed to help with the pass rush.

it just seems like ayers had a good senior bowl and they kept showing the video of him owning an off balance LT in practice and throwing him to the ground and all the sudden he is flying up the boards. that spells disaster to me.

so can the people that keep saying they would be fine with an ayers pick please chime in? i am really looking for someone to make me understand why he would be a good pick, because i am sure he will be our pick, since i would hate it so much.
I think scouts like him because he is a football player. He has great hand usage, holds the edge probably better than any DE in the draft, has the speed to boot. His football IQ is high, very high, he slides down the LOS very well to make plays on the other end of the line. As you said he can slide in to the DT spot and create pressure from there.

His production is a question mark of course but I think scouts look at his tape and see a guy who combines speed, power, agility, hand usage, and figure that with more talent around him and NFL coaching he can be a star.

[kernowboy]

err.... I'm not sure.

[Tatonka]

if he is a football player and has great hand usage and great speed, how come it didn't translate to any production at all?

i mean the guy you just explained sounds great.. and you would expect to see TONS of production from a guy that is so smart and fast and strong.. a guy with so many moves and understands hand placement, ect..

where is the production? or better yet.. since there obviously is no production, what is the reason there is no production with all these skills he is said to possess.

since he couldnt beat a lot of college left tackles that will never play a down in the nfl, how is he supposed to beat a professional?

[venis2k1]

Im not sure id take Ayers in the second round, let alone at 11. I love SEC kids, but generally shy away from one year wonders, especially kids that didnt produce in their one year. We are overpaying enough 3 sack DEs on this roster already.

[Tatonka]

venis, that is my point exactly. do we want another kelsay? that is what he looks like to me.

[Jan Reimers]

Given our long term lack of success, I'm not looking for prospects or projects with our first day picks. I'm looking for productivity. Immediately.

[psubills62]

I have posted it in several different threads and yet to see a real answer as to what it is that has people excited over Robert Ayers, the DE from Tennessee.

For the life of me I can't understand why he should be considered a 1st round prospect. It appears to me that he is 100% potential and 0% production.

He was not a starter at Tennessee until last year. A lot of that, by his own admission, was due to his lack of maturity. Once he became a starter last year, he finished the season with 3.5 sacks. Per Gill Brandt on Sirius, 3 of those sacks came on 3rd downs where he slid inside and played tackle, so that is .5 sacks in an entire season for a starting defensive end.

I know he is strong.. i know he is fast.. but he is no where near a finished product. if you think we will get any more production out of him that ellis got last year, your expectations are too high. he couldnt produce at all at the college level as a pass rusher.

He did well against the run, as shown by his 15.5 tackles for a loss, but i just can not see how this guy warrants a 1st round pick. and before you say, every pick is based on potential, i am aware of that. but most of these guys have some stats to back that up.. every guy in the 1st round that i can see has some major production to show for their time as a starter.. but ayers just doesnt have the production that i want from a DE that is supposed to be the savior.

at least even Maybin, who only had 1 year of production, was a beast for 1 year.. i dont think i would be thrilled with maybin at 11, but god, at least he has some sacks, which are pretty important for a defensive end that is supposed to help with the pass rush.

it just seems like ayers had a good senior bowl and they kept showing the video of him owning an off balance LT in practice and throwing him to the ground and all the sudden he is flying up the boards. that spells disaster to me.

so can the people that keep saying they would be fine with an ayers pick please chime in? i am really looking for someone to make me understand why he would be a good pick, because i am sure he will be our pick, since i would hate it so much.

First off, Ayers is not 0% production. You're only looking at one number - sacks. He had 12.5 TFL in the running game, which is REALLY good as a DE in college. That means he's very mature in the run game and can handle his own.

Did he get a lot of sacks in college? No, he didn't. That is his main weak area, but the things that he has to learn about pass-rushing (primarily repertoire and technique) can easily be taught. Supposedly our new DL coach Bob Sanders is good at develop pass-rushers.

Maybe you should read this article:

http://jac.scout.com/a.z?s=119&p=2&c=815692

He explains it better than I ever could. And he called it back in November, when no one was talking about Ayers at all.

[yordad]

it just seems like ayers had a good senior bowl and they kept showing the video of him owning an off balance LT in practice and throwing him to the ground and all the sudden he is flying up the boards. that spells disaster to me.I would be intrested in that vid.

[Mahdi]

if he is a football player and has great hand usage and great speed, how come it didn't translate to any production at all?

i mean the guy you just explained sounds great.. and you would expect to see TONS of production from a guy that is so smart and fast and strong.. a guy with so many moves and understands hand placement, ect..

where is the production? or better yet.. since there obviously is no production, what is the reason there is no production with all these skills he is said to possess.

since he couldnt beat a lot of college left tackles that will never play a down in the nfl, how is he supposed to beat a professional?
I cant answer that.

But he does have all those qualities, so I guess decision makers will have to come up with the reason for themselves. I really dont have enough tape to come up with a reason why but he has satisfied Mayock to no end, thats good enough for me.

[Tatonka]

great.. ayers plays the run well.. kelsay is no slouch against the run.. he just sucks as a pass rusher.. we are trying to draft a defensive end that can RUSH THE PASSER because that is our main weakness.. for a team that sucked at getting the quarterback last year.. i could give a rats ass about how well a defensive end plays the run.. we can put a defensive tackle at end if that is all we are worried about.

basically what your saying is that rushing the passer is a huge weakness for ayers and that he will have to learn to do it.. OR we could take one of MANY other defensive ends that already know how to do it and not have to wait a year or two while learn how to play the position?

connor barwin has only been playing defensive end for 1 year total and the guy tripled ayers production.

yeah, im just looking at sacks because what we are talking about is needing a sack artist.. a guy that can get pressure.. otherwise we mine as well keep kelsay.

[Tatonka]

I would be intrested in that vid.

i cant get youtube at work during the day.. but i am sure it is on there.. he basically bull rushes a tackle back into the tackling dummy that represented the qb.. it looks awesome.. if he actually did that more that once as a starter at DE in a real game, it would be even more impressive.

[Jan Reimers]

First off, Ayers is not 0% production. You're only looking at one number - sacks. He had 12.5 TFL in the running game, which is REALLY good as a DE in college. That means he's very mature in the run game and can handle his own.

Did he get a lot of sacks in college? No, he didn't. That is his main weak area, but the things that he has to learn about pass-rushing (primarily repertoire and technique) can easily be taught. Supposedly our new DL coach Bob Sanders is good at develop pass-rushers.

Maybe you should read this article:

http://jac.scout.com/a.z?s=119&p=2&c=815692

He explains it better than I ever could. And he called it back in November, when no one was talking about Ayers at all.
Why take a DE who is a weak pass rusher, when a pass rusher is what we need? Let's take an accomplished, aggressive pass rusher, who might actually give us something from day 1.

[psubills62]

Why take a DE who is a weak pass rusher, when a pass rusher is what we need? Let's take an accomplished, aggressive pass rusher, who might actually give us something from day 1.

Because a DE isn't just about pass-rushing. Getting a guy who is great at sacking the QB isn't much help if all the other team does is run right at him for 10 yards per carry. DE's need a much better overall game than just rushing the passer.

My point is that Ayers can improve immensely with good coaching. And before anyone goes off on Jauron, it's not like Dick will be specifically focused on Ayers - that's Bob Sanders' job. And it seems as though he really helps players (Kampman) develop into great pass-rushers.

[Mahdi]

great.. ayers plays the run well.. kelsay is no slouch against the run.. he just sucks as a pass rusher.. we are trying to draft a defensive end that can RUSH THE PASSER because that is our main weakness.. for a team that sucked at getting the quarterback last year.. i could give a rats ass about how well a defensive end plays the run.. we can put a defensive tackle at end if that is all we are worried about.

basically what your saying is that rushing the passer is a huge weakness for ayers and that he will have to learn to do it.. OR we could take one of MANY other defensive ends that already know how to do it and not have to wait a year or two while learn how to play the position?

connor barwin has only been playing defensive end for 1 year total and the guy tripled ayers production.

yeah, im just looking at sacks because what we are talking about is needing a sack artist.. a guy that can get pressure.. otherwise we mine as well keep kelsay.
This is exactly why I want to take 2 DE with our first 2 picks.

Taking a strong run defender like Ayers with the ability to become a solid pass rusher and then taking a player like Sidbury at 28 would be smart. That is called re-building yer DL with playmakers.

Hopefully Raji falls to the Jags at 8 and they trade us Henderson for our 4th rounder.

Ayers - Stroud - Henderson - Schobel

Passing downs

Sidbury - Ayers - Stroud - Schobel ---- YESSIR

[psubills62]

great.. ayers plays the run well.. kelsay is no slouch against the run.. he just sucks as a pass rusher.. we are trying to draft a defensive end that can RUSH THE PASSER because that is our main weakness.. for a team that sucked at getting the quarterback last year.. i could give a rats ass about how well a defensive end plays the run.. we can put a defensive tackle at end if that is all we are worried about.

basically what your saying is that rushing the passer is a huge weakness for ayers and that he will have to learn to do it.. OR we could take one of MANY other defensive ends that already know how to do it and not have to wait a year or two while learn how to play the position?

connor barwin has only been playing defensive end for 1 year total and the guy tripled ayers production.

yeah, im just looking at sacks because what we are talking about is needing a sack artist.. a guy that can get pressure.. otherwise we mine as well keep kelsay.

So basically no one can convince you because of his low sack total. That's essentially all you keep coming back to, and you don't seem to realize that DE's need to be good against the run and the pass. Guys like Brown and Orakpo may be better against the pass than Ayers, but the question is: can they become stronger against the run? It's not good to sacrifice the run game for the passing game. You don't think teams would enjoy just running to either side with repeated success?

Yes, people, we need help rushing the passer. But you're essentially not going to get any guy in the draft who can dominate his first year. So why not get a guy who is already set in the run game, teach him for a year and let him break out, instead of getting a guy who rushed the passer well in college, but needs to be taught in the NFL to get better at rushing the passer AND how to play the run?

[Pinkerton Security]

Because a DE isn't just about pass-rushing. Getting a guy who is great at sacking the QB isn't much help if all the other team does is run right at him for 10 yards per carry. DE's need a much better overall game than just rushing the passer.

My point is that Ayers can improve immensely with good coaching. And before anyone goes off on Jauron, it's not like Dick will be specifically focused on Ayers - that's Bob Sanders' job. And it seems as though he really helps players (Kampman) develop into great pass-rushers.

we have DE's who are good against the run - Kelsay, Denney, and even Schobel, who played it much better than usual before he got hurt. What we need is someone who pressures the QB on 3rd down so he doesnt have 8 seconds to disect out defense to get that 5 yards they need for a 1st.

[Jan Reimers]

Because a DE isn't just about pass-rushing. Getting a guy who is great at sacking the QB isn't much help if all the other team does is run right at him for 10 yards per carry. DE's need a much better overall game than just rushing the passer.

My point is that Ayers can improve immensely with good coaching. And before anyone goes off on Jauron, it's not like Dick will be specifically focused on Ayers - that's Bob Sanders' job. And it seems as though he really helps players (Kampman) develop into great pass-rushers.
I understand your argument, but I also understand that Ayers may never develop into a great pass rusher (see Kelsay, Denney). I would just rather take a guy who already has something we need, versus trying to develop it.

[User Manuel]

It is my opinion that none of the DE, other than Curry who projects at OLB, is a sure bet.

I think they are all very similar to Kelsay when he came out, well thought of, but not superior in any fashion, though they have some tools that may help.

[Pinkerton Security]

It is my opinion that none of the DE, other than Curry who projects at OLB, is a sure bet.

I think they are all very similar to Kelsay when he came out, well thought of, but not superior in any fashion, though they have some tools that may help.

i disagree, Kelsay was a late 2nd round choice and Orakpo, Maybin and even Brown are surefire top-20 guys. Orakpo especially has physical talent far beyond that of Kelsay, and the other 2 are also physically superior.

[Tatonka]

Because a DE isn't just about pass-rushing. Getting a guy who is great at sacking the QB isn't much help if all the other team does is run right at him for 10 yards per carry. DE's need a much better overall game than just rushing the passer.

My point is that Ayers can improve immensely with good coaching. And before anyone goes off on Jauron, it's not like Dick will be specifically focused on Ayers - that's Bob Sanders' job. And it seems as though he really helps players (Kampman) develop into great pass-rushers.

the coaches at Tennessee are good.. it is not like he is coming from a no name school.. and the Bills have not shown the ability to "coach up" anyone..

again.. the ayers pick make absolutely no sense. Denny or Kelsay or Williams can all play DE if we are simply trying to stop the run.

[Tatonka]

i can be convinced with a good arguement.. that was what i was looking for actually.. but you are not going to convince me that we should draft a linebacker with the number 11 pick because he is really good in coverage but just cant tackle well.

you are just flat out saying that ayers is not a good pass rusher.. which is confirmed by his .5 sacks as an end.

there were a lot of other defensive ends in the draft that had a ton more sacks and ALSO had a lot of TFL. i just dont see how he warrants a 1st round pick.. based on the fact that he is a decent run stuffer for a dend?? he clearly is not even remotely complete as a player, as a defensive end.

i was just hoping i was missing something.. i would be furious if we picked a kid with no production at the one area we need help at..

that is like having a terrible run game because the line cant block.. then you draft a olineman who is great at pass blocking but sucks at run blocking, and then hoping you can teach him to do something he has never been good at before.

[psubills62]

we have DE's who are good against the run - Kelsay, Denney, and even Schobel, who played it much better than usual before he got hurt. What we need is someone who pressures the QB on 3rd down so he doesnt have 8 seconds to disect out defense to get that 5 yards they need for a 1st.

Kelsay and Denney are getting old, and we all know they can't rush the passer. Ayers has the potential to grow in that department.

If all you guys want is someone to rush the passer, then they can be found much later in the draft.

Also, I didn't realize it until just reading some side notes on one of his draft profiles, but Ayers led Tennessee in sacks last year with 3. He also had more QB hurries than Brown and Maybin (5 compared to 3 and 1).

[Mahdi]

Kelsay and Denney are getting old, and we all know they can't rush the passer. Ayers has the potential to grow in that department.

If all you guys want is someone to rush the passer, then they can be found much later in the draft.

Also, I didn't realize it until just reading some side notes on one of his draft profiles, but Ayers led Tennessee in sacks last year with 3. He also had more QB hurries than Brown and Maybin (5 compared to 3 and 1).
Those QB hurries stats cant be right... only 3 hurries for Brown and 1 for Maybin... no way.

[psubills62]

Those QB hurries stats cant be right... only 3 hurries for Brown and 1 for Maybin... no way.

http://www.cfbstats.com/2008/player/234/1001116/miscdefense/gamelog.html

http://www.cfbstats.com/2008/player/539/1003042/miscdefense/gamelog.html

[Ickybaluky]

I think the hype around the guy revolves around his versatility. He can play inside on pass downs and outside on run downs. He is built low to the ground and anchors well, but still is explosive at the snap. He even had some teams work him in LB drills, presumably to see how effective he drops if used in some zone-blitz concepts.

That ability to move him around and fill multiple roles is far more valuable in the NFL, where there is much more disguising of schemes and trying to confuse blockers.

However, to really understand why there is so much hype around him you have to look at Jason Tuck. Tuck is very similar to Ayers in build and athleticism, and he is used in a creative way. He has become a big-time player and teams are now looking for guys who can do the same thing. Some teams apparently see Ayers in that mold. There is some validity to that, although Tuck was a much better pass rusher at Notre Dame than Ayers was at Tennessee.

[psubills62]

i can be convinced with a good arguement.. that was what i was looking for actually.. but you are not going to convince me that we should draft a linebacker with the number 11 pick because he is really good in coverage but just cant tackle well.

you are just flat out saying that ayers is not a good pass rusher.. which is confirmed by his .5 sacks as an end.

there were a lot of other defensive ends in the draft that had a ton more sacks and ALSO had a lot of TFL. i just dont see how he warrants a 1st round pick.. based on the fact that he is a decent run stuffer for a dend?? he clearly is not even remotely complete as a player, as a defensive end.

i was just hoping i was missing something.. i would be furious if we picked a kid with no production at the one area we need help at..

that is like having a terrible run game because the line cant block.. then you draft a olineman who is great at pass blocking but sucks at run blocking, and then hoping you can teach him to do something he has never been good at before.

The numbers aren't everything. Yeah, it's great that Brown and Maybin had double-digit sacks. But it's also a lot about how their potential is in the NFL. Maybin has great speed, but the NFL LT's will be able to handle it a lot better than Big Ten LT's. Brown is a good deal smaller, and while he has more pass-rushing moves than most DE's, his size could be a significant disadvantage. I like Brown, but I also like Ayers.

Ayers not only has the NFL body, but he has great NFL potential. I'm not flat-out saying Ayers is bad as rushing the passer, it's just that he's still growing into it.

Well what kind of argument are you looking for? The only thing people can say is that he has NFL potential. That's all anyone can say. We could go back and forth naming guys who have been productive in the NFL without being productive in college, or guys who were productive in college and weren't in the NFL, or guys with potential who never lived up to it, etc. If all you're going to do is look at the sack numbers, then there's not much we can do for you. He can be taught and he's got ability.

[Mahdi]

http://www.cfbstats.com/2008/player/234/1001116/miscdefense/gamelog.html

http://www.cfbstats.com/2008/player/539/1003042/miscdefense/gamelog.html
I dont doubt that you got them from a source. I just don't think they track those stats too closely in CFB.

[psubills62]

I dont doubt that you got them from a source. I just don't think they track those stats too closely in CFB.

Maybe not, but that's the best stat site I can find for CFB. They're generally pretty accurate from what I can tell, though maybe their definition of a "QB hurry" is fairly strict.

I guess I'm not too surprised because generally when DE's like Brown and Maybin get to the QB, they sack them.

[Tatonka]

tons of guys were drafted on potential alone.. and have done well..

but not with our first round pick.. matt jones was a good example of a high round draft pick with no college production as a wr.. i just cant see how it is a good pick.

2nd round, maybe.. 1st? no way.

[HHURRICANE]

I have posted it in several different threads and yet to see a real answer as to what it is that has people excited over Robert Ayers, the DE from Tennessee.

For the life of me I can't understand why he should be considered a 1st round prospect. It appears to me that he is 100% potential and 0% production.

He was not a starter at Tennessee until last year. A lot of that, by his own admission, was due to his lack of maturity. Once he became a starter last year, he finished the season with 3.5 sacks. Per Gill Brandt on Sirius, 3 of those sacks came on 3rd downs where he slid inside and played tackle, so that is .5 sacks in an entire season for a starting defensive end.

I know he is strong.. i know he is fast.. but he is no where near a finished product. if you think we will get any more production out of him that ellis got last year, your expectations are too high. he couldnt produce at all at the college level as a pass rusher.

He did well against the run, as shown by his 15.5 tackles for a loss, but i just can not see how this guy warrants a 1st round pick. and before you say, every pick is based on potential, i am aware of that. but most of these guys have some stats to back that up.. every guy in the 1st round that i can see has some major production to show for their time as a starter.. but ayers just doesnt have the production that i want from a DE that is supposed to be the savior.

at least even Maybin, who only had 1 year of production, was a beast for 1 year.. i dont think i would be thrilled with maybin at 11, but god, at least he has some sacks, which are pretty important for a defensive end that is supposed to help with the pass rush.

it just seems like ayers had a good senior bowl and they kept showing the video of him owning an off balance LT in practice and throwing him to the ground and all the sudden he is flying up the boards. that spells disaster to me.

so can the people that keep saying they would be fine with an ayers pick please chime in? i am really looking for someone to make me understand why he would be a good pick, because i am sure he will be our pick, since i would hate it so much.

I agree with your post. Now maybe someone could explain you.:snicker2:

[psubills62]

tons of guys were drafted on potential alone.. and have done well..

but not with our first round pick.. matt jones was a good example of a high round draft pick with no college production as a wr.. i just cant see how it is a good pick.

2nd round, maybe.. 1st? no way.

Jones was switching positions.

[Tatonka]

apparently ayers needs to as well.. because he does much better at DT....

[Bert102176]

anymore I don't like any of the DE's in the 1st rd, I think maybe Oher or Pettigrew at 11 and mack or unger at 28

[Bert102176]

and that would help our OL alot then look at a DE in the 2nd round

[Oaf]

Given our long term lack of success, I'm not looking for prospects or projects with our first day picks. I'm looking for productivity. Immediately.
In which case, you do what you have to get Curry after pick 5.