Without trades this weekend say bye-bye to the playoffs.

[HHURRICANE]

Parrish and Kelsay are still here. No real shocker. Not many people interested in a one dimensional special teams player and a below average DE.

Without some vet additions via trade there is no way we can plug all of the holes through the draft and expect all of them to play well enough to make a playoff run.

The Bills need two o-lineman, through their own admission a TE, a LB replacement for Crowell (please remember that Ellsion sucked last year so don't give me that POS argument), and for sure a DE.

We have 3 high picks to fill 5 absolute holes.

It would actually be a miracle draft if the first 3 players actually contributed so that's the miracle best case scenario.

That means that 2 vet starters at a minimum have to come in.

So as you can see you have to pray for some trades in the next 24 hours.

To kill any counter I've included the Bills draft history in the link:

http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?teamId=0610&type=team

[Jan Reimers]

It's a little early to give up, considering we don't know how our 2nd and 3rd year players are going to develop, how much TO will help the offense, and who we're going to draft.

[Dr. Lecter]

Aaarrrgh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[gil]

Hey everybody - he posted a link to counter!

Seriously, I am as skeptical and jaded as I am sure most of Bills fans are, but if you are this absolutely sure they're going to be the worst team in the history of mankind, why even bother?

I don't believe they absolutely have to make trades to make the playoffs - I believe they need better d-line play and Trent Edwards to play like an All-Pro to get there.

Highly competent QB play can help to overcome many other problems.

[DMBcrew36]

Hey everybody - he posted a link to counter!

Seriously, I am as skeptical and jaded as I am sure most of Bills fans are, but if you are this absolutely sure they're going to be the worst team in the history of mankind, why even bother?

I don't believe they absolutely have to make trades to make the playoffs - I believe they need better d-line play and Trent Edwards to play like an All-Pro to get there.

Highly competent QB play can help to overcome many other problems.

Trent playing like an All-Pro eh? And what O-line will be protecting him?

[OpIv37]

It's a little early to give up, considering we don't know how our 2nd and 3rd year players are going to develop, how much TO will help the offense, and who we're going to draft.

We were counting on 2nd and 3rd year players to develop last year. And the year before that. How'd that work out?

Also, in one breath you say we need development from our 2nd and 3rd year players, and in the next you mention draft picks. If it takes players 2 to 3 years to come into their own, how can you rely on the draft so heavily? On one hand you're counting on the improvement of existing players and on the other hand you're mentioning immediate contributions from the draft. So which is it- do they help immediately or do they take 2-3 years to develop?

[BillsOwnAll]

So in your post you say rookies probally wont contribute. What about 2nd year players like chris ellis or demtrius bell? You yourself said as are rookies this year will suck. Will they always suck??? Im sure they didnt get any better right?

[HHURRICANE]

Sorry. The draft link must be wrong. Even though it's never happened we are expecting 3 rookies to come in, start, and replace Peters, Crowell, and Kelsay. Ellis couldn't even replace Kelsay and he was our 3rd rounder.

Than with the remining picks we are goung to updrade LG and TE.

Then the responses I read are STFU and I'm being negative, blah, blah, blah.

Nice counters on improving a team that won 7 games last year.

This board wants to live in fairyland. I'm pretty sure I know why Hooters stays in business now. You guys would rather dream about getting the girl than actually do something to make it happen.

Pathetic.

Still waiting for one counter that makes any sense whatsoever.

[OpIv37]

So in your post you say rookies probally wont contribute. What about 2nd year players like chris ellis or demtrius bell? You yourself said as are rookies this year will suck. Will they always suck??? Im sure they didnt get any better right?

Did McCargo get better? Poz? Ko Simpson? Butler? Schouman? Edwards?

Every year, someone makes this "1st to 2nd year or 2nd to 3rd year" player improvement and it never works.

First, while players do improve, there is simply too much of a talent gap between us and other teams for player improvement alone to put us where we need to be.

Second, this FO/coaching staff has shown ZERO ability to find and/or develop players.

So, you can keep relying on player development, but history has shown that it's not enough for this team.

[HHURRICANE]

Aaarrrgh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nice job monitoring the board. I think I'm the only donor in this thread but you allow people to post "stfu and go away".

As I said before not one intelligent counter.

The draft link was too sobering?

[kernowboy]

I certainly think we need to hit home with our picks at #11, #28, #42, and #75. I doubt anyone will take Kelsay but I think we should get a Round3 pick for Parrish, maybe trading him to the Titans for their #94.

Going after players the pundits rave amount is a sure way to flunk this draft. We need strong, mature guys, with a good work ethic, professional attitude, and solid character who can come in and who really want to make it, not flabby fat arses who think that because they've been drafted, they can waddle down to Taco Bell and who don't know what the weight room is, let alone know how to find it.

[Buffatexas]

I do not agree with the consensus that we "have to" have all 1-3 round picks immediately contribute. I think that Modrak may be now "accountable" and is having more influence in this years offseason so I would expect a purge of the "dead weight" on this team. The problem is that we have so much of it, you just cannot purge it all at the same time. And unfortunately, other teams know this and simply wont take what we have unless they really see the need.

Regarding all the holes that were created, IF the front office has done their homework and the talent drafted lives up to expectaton, then they may be able to pull talent from the latter rounds.

So with the link provided by hurricane, I give you the following players who may or may not have been all pro talent but came in and did their job well enough. And players we are talking about today as potential "good" starters.

Demetrius Bell - 7th
Steve Johnson - 7th
Brad Butler - 5th
Terrance McGee - 4th
Jay Riemersma - 7th
Tom Nutten - 7th (not well for us, but was decent with the Rams)
Kurt Schulz - 7th

And the list goes on...Mark Maddox, Keith McKeller, Marvcus Patton, Howard Ballard. All late round picks

Throw Tom Brady in there as well...If Bledsoe doesnt get hurt...who know what todays AFC East landscape would be like.

[Tatonka]

the sky is falling.. the sky is falling.

[Dr. Lecter]

Nice job monitoring the board. I think I'm the only donor in this thread but you allow people to post "stfu and go away".

As I said before not one intelligent counter.

The draft link was too sobering?

Sorry, I had a teleconference with Israel and EU representatives. Next time I will tell them you need me.

I don't have time to babysit every ****ing thing said on this board, nor do I have the desire.

And before you ***** about others attacking you, perhaps you should look in the mirror.

Quite honestly, I am sick and tired of the attacks people are making, as well as the way others feel a need to talk down to others, the way some feel the need to make 20 threads that say the same basic thing and the general attitude here.

Perhaps we could try to treat other with a tad bit of respect and quit being general pains in the ass. And this is not just directed at you.

[Dr. Lecter]

Everybody.

Stop posting crap in this thread.

Now.

[Captain gameboy]

Sorry, I had a teleconference with Israel and EU representatives. Next time I will tell them you need me.


Was that you?

I was on the other line, getting Benjamin Netanyahu's last mock.

He hates Pettigrew in the 1b.

Other than that, (or is it Oher than that- 1a hint), he had no surprises.

[Dr. Lecter]

I hope Tony Blair was right and the Curry falls to #11, but I doubt it.

[Captain gameboy]

here ya go Doc.

www.crimescene.com/store/index.php?main_page=popup_image&pID=34&zenid=dc8b416d5e75644a62cbfd54df4d6fc1

[HHURRICANE]

Sorry, I had a teleconference with Israel and EU representatives. Next time I will tell them you need me.

I don't have time to babysit every ****ing thing said on this board, nor do I have the desire.

And before you ***** about others attacking you, perhaps you should look in the mirror.

Quite honestly, I am sick and tired of the attacks people are making, as well as the way others feel a need to talk down to others, the way some feel the need to make 20 threads that say the same basic thing and the general attitude here.

Perhaps we could try to treat other with a tad bit of respect and quit being general pains in the ass. And this is not just directed at you.

Look in the mirror? Find a post where I was the one initiating an attack. Find one! Everything that I've posted has been on the defense, not the offense.

Your post was "aarrrgghhh". Maybe you should look in the mirror.

Read my thread. Where does it say "Bills suck" or "I hate this team".

Sorry my thread this AM is legit, factual, and not in line with the homerism that prevails on thi site until December when we are out of the playoffs.

That's why there is an ignore feature. You don't have to read my posts or threads. But if you do respond than maybe people could actually offer an intelligent counter. Many people here know that even when I don't agree I've complimented people on well thought out arguments. Bigbub, Saratoga, OP and a bunch more here know how to counter without being a jerk about it.

By the way, find a thread that I posted that is identical to this one.

[EricStratton]

In the 2005 draft the Giants made 4 picks and got three starters for their 2007 Super Bowl team.

Players develop, draft picks contribute. It does happens.

http://www.nj.com/giants/index.ssf/2008/11/with_just_4_picks_new_york_gia.html

[Buddo]

Well, one part of your argument is a non starter. We don't need to replace Crowell, as he didn't play for us last year. At all. How difficult will it be to make an upgrade at LB do you think? Over Ellison. Perhaps not so much. There ya go, one problem solved. If need be, we can always sign Keiaho after the draft.
We definitely need one O-Lineman, and we definitely need a TE. We will undoubtedly draft a TE, the question remains, how high. Realistically, if we want a TE who can be productive straight away, it has to be Pettigrew. I'm including his blocking ability within the scope of 'productive', as if he's opening up additional hole in the running game, he will be doing at least part of his job properly immediately.
We are positioned well to grab a very good interior lineman with either the #28, or the #42 pick.
We might get a Tackle drop into our laps at #11.
There are so many 'options' that it is very difficult to say which way things will go. It is quite possible, we could get all we want from this draft though.
There's a lot of time left, for an awful lot of things to happen, and FA isn't actually over yet.
If we fill 3 of your alleged 'holes' in the draft, we will not be badly set. The time for 'doom and gloom' will be when we draft 3 WRs and a couple more Corners, at which point I'll be right with you.

[justasportsfan]

Sorry. The draft link must be wrong. Even though it's never happened we are expecting 3 rookies to come in, start, and replace Peters, Crowell, and Kelsay. Ellis couldn't even replace Kelsay and he was our 3rd rounder.

Than with the remining picks we are goung to updrade LG and TE.

Then the responses I read are STFU and I'm being negative, blah, blah, blah.

Nice counters on improving a team that won 7 games last year.

This board wants to live in fairyland. I'm pretty sure I know why Hooters stays in business now. You guys would rather dream about getting the girl than actually do something to make it happen.

Pathetic.

Still waiting for one counter that makes any sense whatsoever.

you're still here? just leave

[Yasgur's Farm]

We were counting on 2nd and 3rd year players to develop last year. And the year before that. How'd that work out?

Also, in one breath you say we need development from our 2nd and 3rd year players, and in the next you mention draft picks. If it takes players 2 to 3 years to come into their own, how can you rely on the draft so heavily? On one hand you're counting on the improvement of existing players and on the other hand you're mentioning immediate contributions from the draft. So which is it- do they help immediately or do they take 2-3 years to develop?'08 starters with 3 or less years experience...

G Brad Butler
S Donte Whitner
RB Marshawn Lynch
QB Trent Edwards
LB Paul Posluszny
DT Kyle Williams

I expect to add following starters in '09...

TE Derek Fine
T Demetrius Bell
CB Leodis McKelvin
DE Chris Ellis
2 rookies

I also expect James Hardy to step it up quite a bit.

[DMBcrew36]

Did McCargo get better? Poz? Ko Simpson? Butler? Schouman? Edwards?

Every year, someone makes this "1st to 2nd year or 2nd to 3rd year" player improvement and it never works.

First, while players do improve, there is simply too much of a talent gap between us and other teams for player improvement alone to put us where we need to be.

Second, this FO/coaching staff has shown ZERO ability to find and/or develop players.

So, you can keep relying on player development, but history has shown that it's not enough for this team.

Yep - players improving is a moot point. If our players are improving, every other teams players are improving too.

[gil]

Trent playing like an All-Pro eh? And what O-line will be protecting him?

Hopefully one that has left tackle that reports in shape, can finish games and doesn't give up double digit sacks.

[Dying_-2-_Live]

hmm thats kinda funny, in almost every draft but 2004, we got atleast 3 or 4 players that played pretty decent

[FlyingDutchman]

I thought without trades you were leaving to another team anyways so what do you care about playoffs?

[SquishDaFish]

Will you just FN Stop already. Give it a damn beak enjoy the weekend which is one of the best weekends for us real fans. Enjoy it!!

[ServoBillieves]

Sigh...

The front office is very high on Bell, and seeming as hor they're professionals I'm guessing he'll be at least OK in filling in one of our holes. Secondly, have we forgotten about Alvin Bowen? Weren't a lot of us excited and thought he could make a run at a starting spot? How about giving Ellis a shot?

On to the draft... 5 major holes? With our new receiving corp, is a receiving TE a GLARING need this year? I mean honestly? We have Fred, Dominic, T.O., Marshawn, Lee, Roscoe, Josh, Stevie, and James who can go out and get the ball. Also, have either of the Derek's severely disappointed so far in catching the ball? A 3rd or 4th pure receiving TE pick up is fine by me.

The O-line, well yes, that needs help, so I'll give you 1 there.

OLB = 2, I don't expect Bowen to start, so bring in a young guy to compliment Poz n' Kawika.

Pass Rusher = I'll give you 3 there.

So we have 3 ABSOLUTE holes.

And 3 high picks to fix em.

Tada. I'm not giving up hope.

[HHURRICANE]

Sigh...

The front office is very high on Bell, and seeming as hor they're professionals I'm guessing he'll be at least OK in filling in one of our holes. Secondly, have we forgotten about Alvin Bowen? Weren't a lot of us excited and thought he could make a run at a starting spot? How about giving Ellis a shot?

On to the draft... 5 major holes? With our new receiving corp, is a receiving TE a GLARING need this year? I mean honestly? We have Fred, Dominic, T.O., Marshawn, Lee, Roscoe, Josh, Stevie, and James who can go out and get the ball. Also, have either of the Derek's severely disappointed so far in catching the ball? A 3rd or 4th pure receiving TE pick up is fine by me.

The O-line, well yes, that needs help, so I'll give you 1 there.

OLB = 2, I don't expect Bowen to start, so bring in a young guy to compliment Poz n' Kawika.

Pass Rusher = I'll give you 3 there.

So we have 3 ABSOLUTE holes.

And 3 high picks to fix em.

Tada. I'm not giving up hope.

Thanks for the post.

I don't agrre with you completely but this a perfect example of how to operate on a message board without being insulting!!

My issue is are we trying fill holes or upgrade positions?

Sure, we could live with Fine or Shouman but we did that last year so what does that get us?

Our line is worse right now. Even if everyone here thinks he was overrated, etc. he was still better than anything we can put on the field next year even if it's Oher. So we are worse at LT no matter what.

Same goes for LG.

People act like Crowell didn't exist. He went on IR but he is the roster spot we are replacing. If Ellison is the permanant replacement than we suck there as well.

Kelsay might be upgraded in the draft but the idead that Ellis who did absolutely nothing last year is somehow going to blossom into Mr. 8-10 sacks is insane.

[HHURRICANE]

hmm thats kinda funny, in almost every draft but 2004, we got atleast 3 or 4 players that played pretty decent

Eventually played. Didn't play in that season or start.

We need starters this year.

[Dying_-2-_Live]

Eventually played. Didn't play in that season or start.

We need starters this year.

Awwww, im sorry... have fun finding them players. Teams build from the draft. We need good star players, correct? How do you expect us to get them? Trade for them? If a player is worth something, they normally arent traded for a diet coke and a slice of pizza

[HHURRICANE]

I thought without trades you were leaving to another team anyways so what do you care about playoffs?

I think my thread just said that. Without trades there is no playoffs. If there are no trades than we just purged players that we didn't want to pay.

Why would I want to root for a team that is worse than it was a year ago? Because of TO? Dallas had a better team than us and they didn't make the playoffs with TO.

24 hours and counting.

[ServoBillieves]

My issue is are we trying fill holes or upgrade positions?

Sure, we could live with Fine or Shouman but we did that last year so what does that get us?

Our line is worse right now. Even if everyone here thinks he was overrated, etc. he was still better than anything we can put on the field next year even if it's Oher. So we are worse at LT no matter what.

Same goes for LG.

People act like Crowell didn't exist. He went on IR but he is the roster spot we are replacing. If Ellison is the permanant replacement than we suck there as well.

Kelsay might be upgraded in the draft but the idead that Ellis who did absolutely nothing last year is somehow going to blossom into Mr. 8-10 sacks is insane.

There's no way Ellis turns in to a +5 sack guy, but if he's sharing time with Schobel on the right and some teams in the conference start to get some looks at him, maybe that'll free up Marcus and Kyle in the middle. There's 0 doubt in my mind that Kelsay will be upgraded. The 'C' on his jersey was disgraced.

Ellison is a good LB, I know a lot of people would jump me for this, but he's good in COVERAGE. If it's a 3rd and 3 to 10 and we have three LB'ers in, have Kawika blitz and drop Ellison in to coverage. As a starter? We'd be in pretty bad shape if that were the case.

There is no arguement that our line is far worse, but I believe it's fixable, and I'm still not opposed to trading for Waters or someone else to get something to fill the holes AND upgrade the holes that have been left on the line. Any O-Lineman in the NFL is big and strong, but it's line chemistry and smarts that matters. Pray that they can gel quickly.

[SquishDaFish]

Good luck finding rookies that will make an impact right away. Very few do.

[HHURRICANE]

Awwww, im sorry... have fun finding them players. Teams build from the draft. We need good star players, correct? How do you expect us to get them? Trade for them? If a player is worth something, they normally arent traded for a diet coke and a slice of pizza

Dude, you make no sense.

You can trade down and get a player. You can trade existing players. You can trade lower pciks for proven players.

I'd give up a 3rd in a heartbeat for Scheffler. Or would like to gamble and pick up another Ellis?

[SquishDaFish]

The other team has to want to trade also HH. This isnt Madden. Im sure the Bills would love to trade for him for a 3rd. How do you know they havent tried??

[DMBcrew36]

God luck finding rookies that will make an impact right away. Very few do.

Yep. And with the lack of talent on the team, holes on the roster, and a difficult schedule, we're looking at a 5-11 record. That is ofcourse unless something happens tomorrow that blows the roof off, which is highly doubtful.

[SquishDaFish]

DMB thats the thing man. You never know. There is parity you never know what is going to happen

[HHURRICANE]

God luck finding rookies that will make an impact right away. Very few do.

This is the whole point of my thread.

I love the draft as well. I'm coming into work becasue I am swamped but I'll have the TV in my office on!!

I'm not trying to piss in anybody's cornflakes. I'm just making the point that people need to hope for moves that might net us some veteran contributors.

The Bills went 7-9 and we added TO, good move, Hangartner, hopefully better than what we had but decided to drop our LG and LT which means we are worse at both positions whether we fill from within or the draft.

So are we significantly better after the draft even if we slam dunk it? No way.

The math doesn't add up.

[DMBcrew36]

DMB thats the thing man. You never know. There is parity you never know what is going to happen

That's the thing. These are the Bills we're talking about.

:tip:

[DrGraves]

Trades or not, this team won't make the playoffs until it is under new ownership in Toronto.

[HHURRICANE]

The other team has to want to trade also HH. This isnt Madden. Im sure the Bills would love to trade for him for a 3rd. How do you know they havent tried??

100% agree with you again.

But the Bills put themselves in this predicamnet. The Bills should have kept Dockery and Peters because they were still better than anything on the roster. Could we trade Bell or Chambers? Would another team sign them as a starter? No way.

The Bills are now behind the 8 ball thanks to their finacial model. How excited would you have been if they signed TO and Hangartner in addition to Dockery and Peters staying?

It's not like when the season ended there was one thread saying that Dockery was the biggest hole. The bullseye was on Kelsay, Ellison, Schobel, Preston, and weakness at the #2WR and TE positions.

So we addressed the #2 WR spot and added LT and LG to the nightmare.

[BuffaloRanger]

Add to the mix that the Bills didn't have to cut Dockery when they did and it just spotlights the ineptitude of the Bills FO.

His roster bonus wasn't due for weeks, and the Lions were interested in trading a 6th or 7th rdr for him. But for some reason the Bills had to cut him on the eve of FA.

These guys are idiots.