Is there any confirmatin that Maybin is being moved to LB?

[Forward_Lateral]

Or are most of you just "assuming"? I have yet to see a link, can someone provide one that says the Bills will move Maybin to LB?

[Al the Bills Fan]

He and the team have both said that he is playing DE. watch the interview with Jauron, Bradon, Modrak on bb.com

[psubills62]

He's not moving to LB. He's a DE who is still growing into his body.

[Joe Fo Sho]

He's playing end for us. The only thing that had people convinced he was gonna move to LB is the text they received that said Maybin is an LB.

[OpIv37]

He's not moving to LB. He's a DE who is still growing into his body.

Translation: he's not in the same shape that Orakpo is in and he won't help us immediately. That wouldn't necessarily be a problem because that's true of most guys coming out of college. The issue is that the Bills needed immediate help at several positions, relied on the draft to get it, then took a player who won't help immediately. It's moronic.

[Al the Bills Fan]

Translation: he's not in the same shape that Orakpo is in and he won't help us immediately. That wouldn't necessarily be a problem because that's true of most guys coming out of college. The issue is that the Bills needed immediate help at several positions, relied on the draft to get it, then took a player who won't help immediately. It's moronic.

I appreciate most of your posts BUT you are crazy if you are knocking Maybin's conditioning. Did you see the picture that someone posted on the zone? He has been working his tail off. He wants to play, Orakpo's knock is that he is not very determined. Maybin wants to play and will work. I am not completely sold on Maybin either and like you I was praying that the Bills would take Orakpo @ 11 and was a little pissed we didn;t at first.

Why don't you see how the kid pans out before making your judgement on him.

[kid mickey]

I will say this. I did not want the Bills to get Orakpo. He thought he was lock at 11. Did anybody see how shocked he was after the Bills took Maybin? The Redskins weren't. They already had a jersey with Orakpo's name on it. I was more worried about Orakpo than Maybin.

[Tatonka]

tom modrak specifically said he is fine at 250 and will get bigger over the years.. but he is fine now.

he weights more than aaron schobel.

but your right.. there is NO WAY he can give us an immediate impact.. :rolleyes:

[OpIv37]

I appreciate most of your posts BUT you are crazy if you are knocking Maybin's conditioning. Did you see the picture that someone posted on the zone? He has been working his tail off. He wants to play, Orakpo's knock is that he is not very determined. Maybin wants to play and will work. I am not completely sold on Maybin either and like you I was praying that the Bills would take Orakpo @ 11 and was a little pissed we didn;t at first.

Why don't you see how the kid pans out before making your judgement on him.

See, this is exactly the problem with the Bills. They pick guys who have good work ethic over superior physical talent. Ideally you'd want both, but I don't care how much time Maybin spends in the gym. Some things are just physical gifts and no amount of work or training can make up for it. That's the criteria for being a member of the Buffalo Bills? Working hard? ****, sign me to a minimum salary contract and I'll spend 8 hours a day in the gym and 4 hours a day watching tape every day from now until the season starts. I'll never be as big, strong, fast or athletic as the guys on the team now, but I'll work really hard!

What you call "judgment" I call "commentary." I don't know that he's going to struggle just like you don't know that he's going to contribute. But this is what we do know: he has limited college experience, at the moment he's undersized, and the season starts in 4 1/2 months. Given all of that, it's illogical to expect him to come in and contribute immediately. Maybe he's one of the rare guys who can pull it off, but chances are he's not. If the Bills want to win, they don't have the luxury of waiting for guys to develop. They need the help now. So, ANY reason for concern that the guy isn't ready is very significant.

[psubills62]

Translation: he's not in the same shape that Orakpo is in and he won't help us immediately. That wouldn't necessarily be a problem because that's true of most guys coming out of college. The issue is that the Bills needed immediate help at several positions, relied on the draft to get it, then took a player who won't help immediately. It's moronic.

It's not moronic. He's a guy who can contribute; he's just not ready to be a starter. Maybin's a hard worker and if he can maintain the weight he put on over the offseason, then he could be even farther developed than expected.

I don't think they should have picked only Maybin, and I'm not even sure he can fit our scheme. But I know how great of a speed rusher he is, and I'm willing to give him a chance. It's not even 48 hours after he was picked and you're ready to call his season a wash?

[casdhf]

He'll have 8 sacks this year.

[psubills62]

See, this is exactly the problem with the Bills. They pick guys who have good work ethic over superior physical talent. Ideally you'd want both, but I don't care how much time Maybin spends in the gym. Some things are just physical gifts and no amount of work or training can make up for it. That's the criteria for being a member of the Buffalo Bills? Working hard? ****, sign me to a minimum salary contract and I'll spend 8 hours a day in the gym and 4 hours a day watching tape every day from now until the season starts. I'll never be as big, strong, fast or athletic as the guys on the team now, but I'll work really hard!

What you call "judgment" I call "commentary." I don't know that he's going to struggle just like you don't know that he's going to contribute. But this is what we do know: he has limited college experience, at the moment he's undersized, and the season starts in 4 1/2 months. Given all of that, it's illogical to expect him to come in and contribute immediately. Maybe he's one of the rare guys who can pull it off, but chances are he's not. If the Bills want to win, they don't have the luxury of waiting for guys to develop. They need the help now. So, ANY reason for concern that the guy isn't ready is very significant.

Haha you're talking about physical gifts while bashing Maybin? You've got to be kidding me...he's one of the most physically talented kids in the draft. He just needs some polishing.

Strengths:
Excellent athleticism...Extremely quick and has a phenomenal first step...Explosive with a great burst...Smooth and fluid...Has a non-stop motor...Relentless in pursuit...Closes in a hurry...Agile with good balance and changes directions well...Can be a terror off the edge...Is comfortable in space...Has displayed some ability and promise in coverage...Real long arms...There is very little fat on his body and he has room to add more weight...Offers some positional versatility...A hard worker...Team leader...Nice production...Still has tons of upside.

-from draftcountdown.com

[OpIv37]

tom modrak specifically said he is fine at 250 and will get bigger over the years.. but he is fine now.

he weights more than aaron schobel.

but your right.. there is NO WAY he can give us an immediate impact.. :rolleyes:


250 is not fine for a DE, because if he's listed at 250, he's probably closer to 240. When Schobel's weight went from 260 down to 243, his sacks went from 14 to 6.5.

This D has been trying to get away with undersized players for years and they consistently get burned by it.

I agree, he'll probably get bigger over the years. But what good does that do us NOW? Once again, the FO insists on building for a future that never actually arrives. It's ****ing Groundhog Day.

[psubills62]

250 is not fine for a DE, because if he's listed at 250, he's probably closer to 240. When Schobel's weight went from 260 down to 243, his sacks went from 14 to 6.5.

This D has been trying to get away with undersized players for years and they consistently get burned by it.

I agree, he'll probably get bigger over the years. But what good does that do us NOW? Once again, the FO insists on building for a future that never actually arrives. It's ****ing Groundhog Day.

No...you're thinking about if a prospect's college or university says he's 250. He's officially listed at 249 at the NFL combine, and similar weight at his pro day.

[OpIv37]

Haha you're talking about physical gifts while bashing Maybin? You've got to be kidding me...he's one of the most physically talented kids in the draft. He just needs some polishing.

Strengths:
Excellent athleticism...Extremely quick and has a phenomenal first step...Explosive with a great burst...Smooth and fluid...Has a non-stop motor...Relentless in pursuit...Closes in a hurry...Agile with good balance and changes directions well...Can be a terror off the edge...Is comfortable in space...Has displayed some ability and promise in coverage...Real long arms...There is very little fat on his body and he has room to add more weight...Offers some positional versatility...A hard worker...Team leader...Nice production...Still has tons of upside.

-from draftcountdown.com

My assertion is that Orakpo is more physically gifted than Maybin and thus more ready to contribute immediately.

You respond to that by posting a draft site's OPINION on Maybin without even mentioning Orakpo? Come on, you can do better than that.

[OpIv37]

No...you're thinking about if a prospect's college or university says he's 250. He's officially listed at 249 at the NFL combine, and similar weight at his pro day.

Fair enough- I still think DE's need to be between 260 and 280 to be effective.

[Tatonka]

See, this is exactly the problem with the Bills. They pick guys who have good work ethic over superior physical talent.

once i read this i stopped reading the rest of your drivel.. i am not 100% sold on the maybin pick by any means.. and i wouldnt have taken him, but your out of your ****ing melon if you are implying that he is not a superior physical talent.

[OpIv37]

once i read this i stopped reading the rest of your drivel.. i am not 100% sold on the maybin pick by any means.. and i wouldnt have taken him, but your out of your ****ing melon if you are implying that he is not a superior physical talent.

compared to Orakpo, he's not.

[Tatonka]

Fair enough- I still think DE's need to be between 260 and 280 to be effective.

ok, schobel.

[OpIv37]

ok, schobel.

schobel was effective at 260.

Not effective at 243, unless you consider 7.5 sacks in two years "effective".

[casdhf]

compared to Orakpo, he's not.Maybin has a much faster first step, and that isn't opinion, check the tape.

[Bmax]

I don't believe Schobel has weighed 260 since he came to Buffalo...


By the way Mathis is 245... Anderson with the Bears...weighed 250-255 but got 12sacks his first season...

Let's give the kid a chance


Bmax

[OpIv37]

Maybin has a much faster first step, and that isn't opinion, check the tape.

that's nice.

He's also not as strong and gets pushed back more in the run game. That isn't opinion, check the tape.

A first step is only one of many tools that effective DE's have and it doesn't make one a superior talent on it's own.

[OpIv37]

I don't believe Schobel has weighed 260 since he came to Buffalo...


By the way Mathis is 245... Anderson with the Bears...weighed 250-255 but got 12sacks his first season...

Let's give the kid a chance


Bmax

Schobel was listed as 260 in 2006, then was listed as 243 in 2007. This was in the Bills' media guide.

And we don't have time to give players a chance. While we're giving him a chance, we'll have no pass rush and we'll keep losing.

[Tatonka]

compared to Orakpo, he's not.

how do you figure that??

[psubills62]

My assertion is that Orakpo is more physically gifted than Maybin and thus more ready to contribute immediately.

You respond to that by posting a draft site's OPINION on Maybin without even mentioning Orakpo? Come on, you can do better than that.

I didn't realize your point was that Orakpo was more physically gifted than Maybin. It sounded like you thought Maybin was only a hard worker and not very athletic. I'd personally rather have a hard worker who is an excellent athlete than a prospect with questionable work ethic who is slightly more physically gifted.

Also, I'm going to guess that you're thinking in terms of strength. I could list all their measurables, but I'll just mention some here. I got it from various links.

Maybin's barely taller than Orakpo. Measured in at 15 pounds less. Orakpo benched 225 pounds 9 more times than Maybin did. Orakpo also had an equal broad jump (10' 10"), and an equal vertical (~40 inches). Maybin's arms are about an inch longer than Orakpo's, so it's about a wash. Maybin had a short shuttle at slightly less time than Orakpo. Maybin had a bad 40 at the combine, but improved tremendously at his pro day (and as far as I've read, PSU does not have a "fast surface") to about 4.6.

As you can see, the numbers show that Maybin is just as much of an athlete as Orakpo, thought not yet as strong. And that's with a supposedly better work ethic.

[HHURRICANE]

ok, schobel.

Schobel played most of his time here in the 260s. He lost 20 pounds about 2 years ago and I remeber Mikey saying WTF. Even Chris brown got a ton e-mails that year about it.

His sack production dropped off that year and has never comeback. When O-lines are all over 300 pounds you can't have a DE playing on the light side of 250lbs.

Personally I don't like Maybins frame. Orakpo is alot thicker and i think would have been a better pick. But who knows because it really is a coin flip at this point. I don't think either is a slam dunk.

[psubills62]

that's nice.

He's also not as strong and gets pushed back more in the run game. That isn't opinion, check the tape.

A first step is only one of many tools that effective DE's have and it doesn't make one a superior talent on it's own.

Everyone knows the run game isn't Maybin's strength. Doesn't mean he can't contribute his first year. We needed pass rush, we got pass rush.

[OpIv37]

I didn't realize your point was that Orakpo was more physically gifted than Maybin. It sounded like you thought Maybin was only a hard worker and not very athletic. I'd personally rather have a hard worker who is an excellent athlete than a prospect with questionable work ethic who is slightly more physically gifted.

Also, I'm going to guess that you're thinking in terms of strength. I could list all their measurables, but I'll just mention some here. I got it from various links.

Maybin's barely taller than Orakpo. Measured in at 15 pounds less. Orakpo benched 225 pounds 9 more times than Maybin did. Orakpo also had an equal broad jump (10' 10"), and an equal vertical (~40 inches). Maybin's arms are about an inch longer than Orakpo's, so it's about a wash. Maybin had a short shuttle at slightly less time than Orakpo. Maybin had a bad 40 at the combine, but improved tremendously at his pro day (and as far as I've read, PSU does not have a "fast surface") to about 4.6.

As you can see, the numbers show that Maybin is just as much of an athlete as Orakpo, thought not yet as strong. And that's with a supposedly better work ethic.

the "yet" part is what concerns me. We need a guy who can generate a pass rush on week 1. We don't have time to wait for someone to develop, unless you're willing to continue losing in the meantime.

[psubills62]

the "yet" part is what concerns me. We need a guy who can generate a pass rush on week 1. We don't have time to wait for someone to develop, unless you're willing to continue losing in the meantime.

Like I said...he won't be a star, and he won't be an all-around great DE from day one. He also probably won't play against the run very much, if the Bills can help it.

That being said, he can help the pass rush. Isn't that what Buffalo needed? They wanted a pass rush, and that's Maybin's strength. But now you're unhappy that he also can't defend the run as well?

This year he can help the pass rush, and assuming he develops as planned then he can be a starter at DE, with the ability to defend the run, in 2010.

[Tatonka]

Schobel played most of his time here in the 260s. He lost 20 pounds about 2 years ago and I remeber Mikey saying WTF. Even Chris brown got a ton e-mails that year about it.

His sack production dropped off that year and has never comeback. When O-lines are all over 300 pounds you can't have a DE playing on the light side of 250lbs.

Personally I don't like Maybins frame. Orakpo is alot thicker and i think would have been a better pick. But who knows because it really is a coin flip at this point. I don't think either is a slam dunk.

your not a bills fan. who cares.

[kid mickey]

Bottom line is there is a lot of negative tape on Brian Orakpo. He seems to be just what Vernon Gholston was last year. I wonder how Gholston is doing right now? Heard he ain't doing to hot. Rumors out there say Jets wanna trade him. We will see. I think we should wait and see who is more effective. Texas players seem to be so bustable.

[Tatonka]

actually rex ryan said that he is going to turn gholston into an all pro.

[kid mickey]

actually rex ryan said that he is going to turn gholston into an all pro.

Hope so. Wouldn't want the Jets to get screwed outta all that cash.

[jmb1099]

250 is not fine for a DE, because if he's listed at 250, he's probably closer to 240. When Schobel's weight went from 260 down to 243, his sacks went from 14 to 6.5.

This D has been trying to get away with undersized players for years and they consistently get burned by it.

I agree, he'll probably get bigger over the years. But what good does that do us NOW? Once again, the FO insists on building for a future that never actually arrives. It's ****ing Groundhog Day.

So before the draft you tell everyone that it isn't likely that anyone will contribute this year anyway because statistically very few do and so we'll suck. So we draft a guy that may or may not contribute this year and suddenly you're convinced there was someone on the board who would help us this year? So which is it? Do you think Orakpo was the highly rare exception to the rule and would have been a dominant force this year? Before the draft you were convinced that the draft wasn't going to help us for this year anyway, so why now are you acting all po'd like the draft would have helped this year?

[raphael120]

It's not moronic. He's a guy who can contribute; he's just not ready to be a starter.

Well guess what most of the other 31 teams who drafted in the first round drafted? People who can and probably will be starters this season. We don't need part time people, we need someone who can keep Kelsay and Denney where they belong, on the bench, and Chris Ellis (remember him, the DE we drafted last year that did jack ****), nor this dude is probably gonna do that.

[Mad Bomber]

He's not moving to LB. He's a DE who is still growing into his body. He is only 21. He is still growing.

[The Juice Is Loose]

Fair enough- I still think DE's need to be between 260 and 280 to be effective.

Jason Taylor 6'6" 245lbs Robert Mathis 249lbs Pro bowl 09. Dwight Freeney ain't much bigger.

Dude. What would they have to do for you to not complain? Honestly I want to know. New years eve 2008-09, lets take it from there. The only thing you could really be mad about is Peters.

The Peters situation lets just pretend he refused to sign with the Bills.

You really are that hard up for Orakpo over Maybin? I GUARANTEE that you'd be complaining about picking Orakpo because HIS scouting report says that he takes plays off. And he got beatup on by Brandon Pettigrew bigtime.

I personally think that Orakpo is super arrogant and uses steroids. I woudln't be surprised if he ends up testing positive. He also strikes me as a guy that will have a hard time with the mental aspect of the game. Maybin is intellegent.

I'm just saying, Maybin was highly touted. Several mocks had us taking him. Whats your deal.

EDIT - I realize that my knee jerk reaction was anger because I didn't think he would be the guy either. But the more I looked into Maybin vs. Orakpo over the last couple days, I feel we made the right choice. Also feel Maybin vs. Oher was the right choice. Other than that, there really wasn't anybody else that fitted us at that spot of the draft.

[Bert102176]

I was happy they didn't take Orakpo the guy just doesn't seem to have the heart, didn't want Maybin either but we got him hope he won't be the bust I feel he will be but hey 3 or 4 sacks and he's better then Kelsey or Denney can't be worse imo. but hopefully he pans out

[Bert102176]

oh and Maybin does give his all on every down unlike Orakpo

[Forward_Lateral]

ESPN Scouts Inc had him rated as the #1 DE. Just sayin....

[Jan Reimers]

At 6'4" 250 he is a prototypical 4-3 DE in today's NFL. He's heavier than Schobel and Indy's Mathis, taller than Freeney and probably close in size to half of the other 4-3 DEs out there. I just don't get the questions about his size.

[BigZ]

When I was watching the pick, I was rooting for us to take Orakpo. After we made the pick, I was Pi**ed.

After cooling down I started reading more about the two of them and a lot of the messages on this board.

If everything I hear about Orakpo taking plays off and not having a work ethic makes me start to like the Maybin pick. Orakpo started to give me Mike Williams flashbacks.

[psubills62]

Well guess what most of the other 31 teams who drafted in the first round drafted? People who can and probably will be starters this season. We don't need part time people, we need someone who can keep Kelsay and Denney where they belong, on the bench, and Chris Ellis (remember him, the DE we drafted last year that did jack ****), nor this dude is probably gonna do that.

What's your problem? He can contribute to the pass rush, which is what we needed. We didn't HAVE to have a guy who is a three-down DE right away. We needed sacks, pressures, etc. Maybin has the ability to bring that. He also has the upside to eventually become a dominant DE.

[SABURZFAN]

Translation: he's not in the same shape that Orakpo is in and he won't help us immediately. That wouldn't necessarily be a problem because that's true of most guys coming out of college. The issue is that the Bills needed immediate help at several positions, relied on the draft to get it, then took a player who won't help immediately. It's moronic.


you hit the nail on the head. this is why i remain unsure with this pick.

[Forward_Lateral]

At 6'4" 250 he is a prototypical 4-3 DE in today's NFL. He's heavier than Schobel and Indy's Mathis, taller than Freeney and probably close in size to half of the other 4-3 DEs out there. I just don't get the questions about his size.

Agree 100%. There are so many "experts" on this board, it isn't even funny. Every draft media guru said the pick was a good one, along with the rest of the Bills' draft. I think I'll believe the real experts over a bunch of Sunday Morning Quarterbacks who don't know their asses from holes in the ground.

[OpIv37]

So before the draft you tell everyone that it isn't likely that anyone will contribute this year anyway because statistically very few do and so we'll suck. So we draft a guy that may or may not contribute this year and suddenly you're convinced there was someone on the board who would help us this year? So which is it? Do you think Orakpo was the highly rare exception to the rule and would have been a dominant force this year? Before the draft you were convinced that the draft wasn't going to help us for this year anyway, so why now are you acting all po'd like the draft would have helped this year?

Convinced? Not at all. Don't put words in my mouth.

I think Orakpo is MORE LIKELY to help us immediately than Maybin, but neither is a slam dunk.

I said the draft wasn't going tho help us this year, and now I'm still saying it's not going to help us this year. And yes, I'm pissed about that because we need help this year. I really don't see the problem here.

[Dr. Lecter]

Convinced? Not at all. Don't put words in my mouth.

I think Orakpo is MORE LIKELY to help us immediately than Maybin, but neither is a slam dunk.

I said the draft wasn't going tho help us this year, and now I'm still saying it's not going to help us this year. And yes, I'm pissed about that because we need help this year. I really don't see the problem here.

Is it realistic to get much help from the draft this year? Will that help be enough to make the team great? Is it worth a short-term thrill of some help if it sacrifices better help in the future?

Today's society is way too wrapped up in instant gratification. If, after a ten year career Maybin is much better than Orakpo is still a bad pick even if Orakpo outperforms Maybin this year?


Ray Childress had a better rookie season thatn Bruce Smith. Was Smith the wrong pick?

Drafting only to help the next season is what would be moronic. Completely and totally moronic.

But that is what today's spoiled rotten society wants. Instant gratification.

And save "ten years" crap. I know it as well as you do. It is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

[OpIv37]

Is it realistic to get much help from the draft this year? Will that help be enough to make the team great? Is it worth a short-term thrill of some help if it sacrifices better help in the future?

Today's society is way too wrapped up in instant gratification. If, after a ten year career Maybin is much better than Orakpo is still a bad pick even if Orakpo outperforms Maybin this year?


Ray Childress had a better rookie season thatn Bruce Smith. Was Smith the wrong pick?

Drafting only to help the next season is what would be moronic. Completely and totally moronic.

But that is what today's spoiled rotten society wants. Instant gratification.

And save "ten years" crap. I know it as well as you do. It is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

Actually, it's completely relevant.

Look what this FO does. They made a mistake with Dock and they traded Peters, so now positions that were not holes have become holes. By the time Maybin and the rest of our draft picks become good, new holes will open up, we will try to fill them with draft picks who need time to develop, so they will remain holes, and we're stuck in ****ing Groundhog Day.

You can try to make this into some argument about today's society needing instant gratification, but that's not the reality. The reality is that the way this FO does business REQUIRES instant gratification from the draft in order to break this perpetual cycle of losing. They cut vets and refuse to sign FA's to fill holes (or when they do, they screw it up). The only other option is the draft.

[justasportsfan]

Translation: he's not in the same shape that Orakpo is in and he won't help us immediately. That wouldn't necessarily be a problem because that's true of most guys coming out of college. The issue is that the Bills needed immediate help at several positions, relied on the draft to get it, then took a player who won't help immediately. It's moronic.
strength isn't everything. He may not be as strong as Orakpo but he's defenlly faster. As to who would made an impact for us remains to be seen.

[Dr. Lecter]

So, who was there in each of the seven rounds that will be in the Pro Bowl
this year?

I am nto a fan of Maybin either. However, let's not act like Orakpo is a stud. There are significant questions about him as well. Questions that I am sure you would have had a fit about had they drafted him.

They got a guy who might be limited his rookie year, but very well could provide good pressure on 3rd downs and make the passing game more difficult for the opposition. He is unlikely to be a full time starter, I agree. But if he can create some havoc on 3rd downs, that will help this year.

The lose of veterans and bad FA signings is another issue, separate from the draft.

[Dr. Lecter]

At 6'4" 250 he is a prototypical 4-3 DE in today's NFL. He's heavier than Schobel and Indy's Mathis, taller than Freeney and probably close in size to half of the other 4-3 DEs out there. I just don't get the questions about his size.

My concern is that he went from ~230 to 250 relatively quickly.

Can he keep the weight on during the season? Can his frame maintain that weight? Can he maintain his quickness?

[mercyrule]

Personally I don't like Maybins frame. Orakpo is alot thicker and i think would have been a better pick. But who knows because it really is a coin flip at this point. I don't think either is a slam dunk.I like it. I like it a lot. But I'm very skeptical that he can play with the big boys.

[OpIv37]

So, who was there in each of the seven rounds that will be in the Pro Bowl
this year?

I am nto a fan of Maybin either. However, let's not act like Orakpo is a stud. There are significant questions about him as well. Questions that I am sure you would have had a fit about had they drafted him.

They got a guy who might be limited his rookie year, but very well could provide good pressure on 3rd downs and make the passing game more difficult for the opposition. He is unlikely to be a full time starter, I agree. But if he can create some havoc on 3rd downs, that will help this year.

The lose of veterans and bad FA signings is another issue, separate from the draft.

actually, I would have been thrilled if we drafted Orakpo. I was happy when both Oher and Orakpo fell to us and I was hoping Orakpo would have been the choice, so I wouldn't be *****ing at all.

The loss of veterans and bad FA signings puts even more pressure on this team to a) have a good draft and b) find players who can contribute now. Right now, 2009 isn't looking like it's going to be any different from 2008. Or 2007. Or 2006.

[Mahdi]

When I was watching the pick, I was rooting for us to take Orakpo. After we made the pick, I was Pi**ed.

After cooling down I started reading more about the two of them and a lot of the messages on this board.

If everything I hear about Orakpo taking plays off and not having a work ethic makes me start to like the Maybin pick. Orakpo started to give me Mike Williams flashbacks.
Orakpo is a physical specimen but he tends to give up if he doesn't destroy the OT right away.

Maybin on the other hand is Aaron Schobel with more speed and talent and that is exactly why they drafted him.

[OpIv37]

Orakpo is a physical specimen but he tends to give up if he doesn't destroy the OT right away.

Maybin on the other hand is Aaron Schobel with more speed and talent and that is exactly why they drafted him.

Aaron Schobel with speed and talent isn't Aaron Schobel at all.

[BillsOwnAll]

Translation: he's not in the same shape that Orakpo is in and he won't help us immediately. That wouldn't necessarily be a problem because that's true of most guys coming out of college. The issue is that the Bills needed immediate help at several positions, relied on the draft to get it, then took a player who won't help immediately. It's moronic.

strictly hypothetical:

Would you rather Orakpo who would help us immmeditlly but never be a truely great DE.


ORRRRRR..

Maybin have a slow first year but become a perinnal(sp) pro bowler even though he didnt do much for us his rookie season.

honest question.

[OpIv37]

strictly hypothetical:

Would you rather Orakpo who would help us immmeditlly but never be a truely great DE.


ORRRRRR..

Maybin have a slow first year but become a perinnal(sp) pro bowler even though he didnt do much for us his rookie season.

honest question.

Orakpo.

We need help right now and at the very least, it would buy us time to find a more permanent solution at DE. Plus, I think the chances of Orakpo contributing immediately are greater than the chances of Maybin becoming a perennial pro bowler.

[Captain gameboy]

Its all hopeless.

If we draft Orakpo its a bad move because he takes plays off, disregardful the Texas thing.

If we draft player X at a point below where he was projected, its stupid because the other 31 teams didn't draft him because they "knew something" and he "slipped" for a reason.

If we draft player Y before his projected position, its a stupid reach.

The issue of immediate help is ridiculous, unless you are one player away from the Super Bowl and then only regarding free agents with acknowledged skills.

The net of all this is that if you read certain people's posts, as repetitive as they are, you realize that there is absolutely nothing that the front office can do that is satisfactory-ever.

Getting rid of a disease that will never be resolved is not a good move.

[OpIv37]

The issue of immediate help is ridiculous, unless you are one player away from the Super Bowl and then only regarding free agents with acknowledged skills.

The net of all this is that if you read certain people's posts, as repetitive as they are, you realize that there is absolutely nothing that the front office can do that is satisfactory-ever.



At what point are we supposed to get immediate help? We don't do it in FA and we can't do it in the draft. At some point, someone is going to have to come in and make this team better than 7-9.

There is one, and only one, thing that this FO can do that would be satisfactory: win. Instead, they cut vets and replace them with back-ups or rookies, then either refuse to address holes or address them with draft picks who are 2 or 3 years from being ready, leaving us going into next year with the same holes as last year.

But, this is the same argument we get in every year. You insist that position dictates competence and are willing to defer to the FO's decisions. I say that performance dictates competence and this FO has given us ZERO reason to have confidence in them.

[kid mickey]

Orakpo was not the answer if it took you 5 years in the college level to get 12 sacks in a season you know there is a problem. Dude probably got his juice on this year. Watch the guy bust. I will be laughing my ass off. I was screaming at the T.V. that we better not pick Orakpo when our pick was up. I wasn't grinning ear to ear when we got Maybin, but he is better than Orakpo.

[Captain gameboy]

At what point are we supposed to get immediate help? We don't do it in FA and we can't do it in the draft.

Op, I read your posts, all of them, and I think you get to the point of ridiculous.

If we draft a guy who slips, it is because the other 31 teams are smarter than us, and we are fools. You made that point last week.

If we draft a guy early, it is a reach.

If we draft someone who is going to be a rookie, we are not going to get immediate help, as per your view, they don't contribute from day one. What is the point of the draft-can we ever get it right?

If we get rid of someone who is inflexible to point of idiocy in renegotiating a contract, (read lets rip up the old one and fail to ever live up to one), we are stupid and have created a hole, like that was the FO's call.

If Peters was in business, he would perform, be sued and/or in jail.
That is our creation?

The fact is that there is nothing that this company can do that will please you until they make the conference championship, and, unlike your position of being able to criticize, they have to operate day to day.

They have to draft, deal with existing contracts, develop personnel and compete, in what is becoming, obviously, a very disadvantageous position.

I don't think they are stupid, at least not as stupid as this idiotic draft evaluation industry is.

[kid mickey]

Op, I read your posts, all of them, and I think you get to the point of ridiculous.

If we draft a guy who slips, it is because the other 31 teams are smarter than us, and we are fools. You made that point last week.

If we draft a guy early, it is a reach.

If we draft someone who is going to be a rookie, we are not going to get immediate help, as per your view, they don't contribute from day one. What is the point of the draft-can we ever get it right?

If we get rid of someone who is inflexible to point of idiocy in renegotiating a contract, (read lets rip up the old one and fail to ever live up to one), we are stupid and have created a hole, like that was the FO's call.

If Peters was in business, he would perform, be sued and/or in jail.
That is our creation?

The fact is that there is nothing that this company can do that will please you until they make the conference championship, and, unlike your position of being able to criticize, they have to operate day to day.

They have to draft, deal with existing contracts, develop personnel and compete, in what is becoming, obviously, a very disadvantageous position.

I don't think they are stupid, at least not as stupid as this idiotic draft evaluation industry is.

GOOD POST

[OpIv37]

Op, I read your posts, all of them, and I think you get to the point of ridiculous.

If we draft a guy who slips, it is because the other 31 teams are smarter than us, and we are fools. You made that point last week.

If we draft a guy early, it is a reach.

If we draft someone who is going to be a rookie, we are not going to get immediate help, as per your view, they don't contribute from day one. What is the point of the draft-can we ever get it right?

If we get rid of someone who is inflexible to point of idiocy in renegotiating a contract, (read lets rip up the old one and fail to ever live up to one), we are stupid and have created a hole, like that was the FO's call.

If Peters was in business, he would perform, be sued and/or in jail.
That is our creation?

The fact is that there is nothing that this company can do that will please you until they make the conference championship, and, unlike your position of being able to criticize, they have to operate day to day.

They have to draft, deal with existing contracts, develop personnel and compete, in what is becoming, obviously, a very disadvantageous position.

I don't think they are stupid, at least not as stupid as this idiotic draft evaluation industry is.

Well regardless of the reason for the Peters situation, it's a net loss of talent. Blame the FO, don't blame the FO- it really is irrelevant because the talent is gone either way.

You misrepresented some of my opinions in there. I don't assume every pick this FO makes is a reach. I don't think Maybin is a reach- I just think Orakpo would have been a better choice. I thought Whitner was a reach, largely because NO ONE predicted him to go that high. While the draft evaluation industry is ridiculous at times, it's also usually accurate when there is that much consensus. Turns out they were right on that one.

And I didn't say that rookies never contribute from day one. I said the guy we picked is less likely to contribute from day one than some of the other options available.

I'd like to think this FO isn't stupid, but the results suggest something different.

[BillsOwnAll]

At what point are we supposed to get immediate help? We don't do it in FA and we can't do it in the draft. At some point, someone is going to have to come in and make this team better than 7-9.

.


Signing T.O didnt make us better? We sign a HoF player and it still doesnt sasitfy you.

I know why it doesnt. You love to hate. simple as that.

[OpIv37]

Signing T.O didnt make us better? We sign a HoF player and it still doesnt sasitfy you.

I know why it doesnt. You love to hate. simple as that.

Either that, or maybe because I understand that football is a team game.

We have an unproven QB behind a completely reshuffled offensive line. a WR makes no difference if a) the OL can't protect the QB or b) the QB struggles. And there's at least a fair chance that one or both of those would happen.

This is the problem with people like you. You get enamored by one big signing. We had a ton of holes last year and decided to fill them all with the draft- and even the people arguing with me are agreeing that we won't get much immediate help. You're drinking the FO's kool-aid and getting excited over one big signing, regardless of the holes on the rest of the team.

[Captain gameboy]

I think Maybin is a much better fit than Orakpo, and I think this front office fully considered the two before making a very obvious choice, Washington sports talk radio aside.
I would bet that there was no more careful decision made than Maybin over Orakpo because of how it looked like the draft was going to go.

Peters was toast, as of last June/July.

He and his agent did it, not the Bills.

As I said, if he was in business, he would be in court with no case.

Flock the moron with great skill. There was no chance.

The Bills got bigger, tougher, smarter in the interior line.
They have no issues with receivers/running back and the DB package, in my view.

They have major issues at LB, and they better get something out of their D-line.

Trend Edwards is in his trick or treat year.

I love this draft, but we aren't ready yet.

What I think is becoming the 800 pound gorilla is the fact that the FO is playing a very weak hand because of the view that Jauron is up for hanging at the six week mark, and there are no other financial opportunities available if you are a Buffalo Bill.

That puts the FO in a very weak position.

Regardless, as I read your posts, I come to the conclusion that there is no way out, on a day to day decision basis, for this team.

In short, if we do it its wrong.

[OpIv37]

In short, if we do it its wrong.

Pretty much.

Once again, what has this FO done to earn the benefit of the doubt? When have they been successful? How many moves have they made that have paid off, vs how many have they made that have been complete disasters?

On the whole, this FO has been a failure. Until they prove that they can be successful, there is no good reason to assume that they can, especially when there are a bunch of factors suggesting they are wrong.

And for the record, I don't listen to Washington sports radio or any other FM radio. The constant commercials and repetition drive me insane.

[Dr. Lecter]

Pretty much.

Once again, what has this FO done to earn the benefit of the doubt? When have they been successful? How many moves have they made that have paid off, vs how many have they made that have been complete disasters?

On the whole, this FO has been a failure. Until they prove that they can be successful, there is no good reason to assume that they can, especially when there are a bunch of factors suggesting they are wrong.

And for the record, I don't listen to Washington sports radio or any other FM radio. The constant commercials and repetition drive me insane.

That does not mean that we can't say "Hey, I liked this move or that move." without being torn a new ******* and treated like the idea of drafting Maybin ahead or Orakpo is completely foriegn.

[Dr. Lecter]

This is the problem with people like you. You get enamored by one big signing. We had a ton of holes last year and decided to fill them all with the draft- and even the people arguing with me are agreeing that we won't get much immediate help. You're drinking the FO's kool-aid and getting excited over one big signing, regardless of the holes on the rest of the team.

Andyet you want the same thing with saying short term success with Orakpo is more important than greater long term success with Maybin. You would be enamored with the short term success and would sacrifice greater long term success.

[OpIv37]

That does not mean that we can't say "Hey, I liked this move or that move." without being torn a new ******* and treated like the idea of drafting Maybin ahead or Orakpo is completely foriegn.

Well, I think the idea of drafting Maybin is completely foreign and I stated why. If someone disagrees and posts BS reasons, then they deserve to be torn a new *******. If someone disagrees and posts decent reasons, I'm going to tell them why I think my reasoning is better. I really don't see a problem with that- it's what message boards are for.

[Dr. Lecter]

Orakpo.

We need help right now and at the very least, it would buy us time to find a more permanent solution at DE. Plus, I think the chances of Orakpo contributing immediately are greater than the chances of Maybin becoming a perennial pro bowler.

That is proof of my theory of instant gratification.

I'll give you $100 today or $200 next month.

You would take the $100. Since it is unlikely they are winning the whole thing this year, is it not better to have an eye on 3 years down the road?

[Captain gameboy]

Pretty much.

Once again, what has this FO done to earn the benefit of the doubt? When have they been successful? How many moves have they made that have paid off, vs how many have they made that have been complete disasters?


That really isn't the issue, but it is the single greatest factor in why your posts are head scratchers.

What you do is, repeatedly-to the point of nausea, is claim that they are screwed up because we are 7-9.

We could draft the entire pro football hall of fame and you would suggest we reached, screwed up, or are idiots because of what happened last year.

I don't have an issue with your views or frustration.

What I think is crazy is how you judge things with complete disregard for the views of people who do things professionally, and how you post with the most unbelievable predictability and repetition.

[OpIv37]

Andyet you want the same thing with saying short term success with Orakpo is more important than greater long term success with Maybin. You would be enamored with the short term success and would sacrifice greater long term success.

what long term success? This FO has been preparing for long term success every 2 or 3 years for the last 10 years, and that success never arrives. As long as they keep dumping vets and either being inactive or making mistakes in FA, they just end up starting over every few seasons. If Maybin is successful in 2 or 3 years, so what? Guys like Walker, Stroud, TO, McGee, Mitchell, etc will be either gone or washed up and we'll be starting over in the draft once again.

Didn't we have this exact same discussion 4 years ago when Marv first hired Jauron?

This team clearly can't do the long term rebuilding thing properly.

[OpIv37]

That is proof of my theory of instant gratification.

I'll give you $100 today or $200 next month.

You would take the $100. Since it is unlikely they are winning the whole thing this year, is it not better to have an eye on 3 years down the road?

you have two faulty assumptions: one, that there's something inherently wrong with instant gratification and two, that the long term payoff is inevitable.

If I said "I'll give you $100 now or I MIGHT give you $200 next month", which would you take?

If I said "I'll give you $100 now or $200 next month" but you had no money for food until your next paycheck in two weeks, which is the better option?

It's just as unlikely that they're going to win it 3 years down the road.

[kid mickey]

I sure am glad the Bills said no to Orakpo. Dude ain't got much upside and he sure as hell won't be a superstar. He may be ready to stop the run now, but how many sacks you think he gets in his career. With his motor running hot and cold all the time and his durability issues. I say pass all the way. If you get hurt at the combine. You will probably get hurt at the pro level. Think about it. Dude was in a practice setting and he pulls a hammy. Guy looks like he juices all day every day. He looks like an arrogant dude who will not make it in the NFL. I wonder why so many talent evaluators compare him to Gholston. I don't know about you, but I'm not buying him. Oh and throw in the Texas factor and thats all you really need to go on.

[jmb1099]

you have two faulty assumptions: one, that there's something inherently wrong with instant gratification and two, that the long term payoff is inevitable.

If I said "I'll give you $100 now or I MIGHT give you $200 next month", which would you take?

If I said "I'll give you $100 now or $200 next month" but you had no money for food until your next paycheck in two weeks, which is the better option?

It's just as unlikely that they're going to win it 3 years down the road.
You're assuming that Orakpo is a guaranteed $100 and you can't guarantee that anymore then you can Maybin being a $200 later. As I said before, you said pre-draft that it wasn't likely any of these guys will fix (paraphrase) us this year and I agree. Now all the sudden you change positions because the FO didn't take the guy you think was the right selection.

[OpIv37]

You're assuming that Orakpo is a guaranteed $100 and you can't guarantee that anymore then you can Maybin being a $200 later. As I said before, you said pre-draft that it wasn't likely any of these guys will fix (paraphrase) us this year and I agree. Now all the sudden you change positions because the FO didn't take the guy you think was the right selection.


Never said that. I said before that I think Orakpo's chances of being a short term success are greater than Maybin's chances of being a long term success.

Those were simply hypotheticals to refute Lecter's assertion that the immediate payoff is always bad.

And I already addressed this point in your previous post, then you went and made the same point again.

[TheMan08]

Jeez. Just reading OP's post get me depressed. I go from a positive, happy, we are heading in right path to a depressed, we will suck forever, we do nothing right mode. UGH

[jmb1099]

Never said that. I said before that I think Orakpo's chances of being a short term success are greater than Maybin's chances of being a long term success.

Those were simply hypotheticals to refute Lecter's assertion that the immediate payoff is always bad.

And I already addressed this point in your previous post, then you went and made the same point again.
My bad, didn't see your last response.... maybe the screen didn't refresh before I started typing like a madman...
I'm going to go read it now, but are you suggesting that you never said that the draft wouldn't help us be successful this year?

[OpIv37]

My bad, didn't see your last response.... maybe the screen didn't refresh before I started typing like a madman...
I'm going to go read it now, but are you suggesting that you never said that the draft wouldn't help us be successful this year?

I said it's unlikely we can fill all the needs that this team has through the draft and it's rare that draft picks contribute in their first year. I hate the thought of trying to fill immediate needs with draft picks, but that's the situation this FO put us in.

Still, I think the best shot at DE production THIS year was Orakpo- it certainly wouldn't have been a slam dunk, but I think if any DE from this draft will be ready on day 1, it will be him.

[TheMan08]

So if Orakpo gets say 8 sacks and Maybin gets 8 as well. We win then cause you said long term Maybin would be the better player. If he ties his out put short term. Its a win win.

Plus Orakpo was labeled lazy and a guy that takes plays off. Durability isses as well. He sounds like a hold out- I want new deal guy.

[OpIv37]

So if Orakpo gets say 8 sacks and Maybin gets 8 as well. We win then cause you said long term Maybin would be the better player. If he ties his out put short term. Its a win win.

Plus Orakpo was labeled lazy and a guy that takes plays off. Durability isses as well. He sounds like a hold out- I want new deal guy.

that's IF Maybin gets 8 sacks, which is a huge assumption. No one on this roster has had more than 6.5 in a season since 2006.

Funny how no one mentioned Orakpo's supposed work ethic and attitude problems when we were discussing him BEFORE the draft- sounds like a lot of sour grapes to me. Now that he's not our guy, he's always sucked.

[jmb1099]

Convinced? Not at all. Don't put words in my mouth.

I think Orakpo is MORE LIKELY to help us immediately than Maybin, but neither is a slam dunk.

I said the draft wasn't going tho help us this year, and now I'm still saying it's not going to help us this year. And yes, I'm pissed about that because we need help this year. I really don't see the problem here.
Ok, found it.

So if the draft wasn't going to help us this year anyway, what are you so pissed about? Since you seem to think I'm trying to put words in your mouth look at your post. The draft isn't going to help, but we should have taken Orakpo because we need help this year? So which is it? If Orakpo would have given us help this year doesn't that mean the draft would have helped this year? You say you don't see the problem here, but this is exactly it. For weeks before the draft you took the position that it wouldn't help make us contenders this year. So the draft comes, we pick Maybin, and now you take the position that it was the wrong choice because Orakpo would have provided us help this year. I can't speak for anyone else, but had you maintained your initial position of rookies rarely making significant contributions and made your arguments against Maybin because he was raw etc, then ok. But it looks like your running a reversal to continue you're tirade against the FO. You don't like Maybin? Fine, when we passed on Orakpo I screamed as well. But don't start making claims about Orakpo making a significant contribution this year after your argument about rookie contributions prior to the draft. The truth is you don't like Maybin...period. It isn't even logical but something in your gut just doesn't like him. I get it. I disagree, but I get it. So say that, take the abuse that comes with a hunch and move on. But don't change your entire position to justify your anger at a FO that has frustrated you for years. They've earned your anger and until they prove otherwise they will continue to. So don't flip flop, rookies rarely do make a huge contribution and the same would have applied for Orakpo.

[jmb1099]

I said it's unlikely we can fill all the needs that this team has through the draft and it's rare that draft picks contribute in their first year. I hate the thought of trying to fill immediate needs with draft picks, but that's the situation this FO put us in.

Still, I think the best shot at DE production THIS year was Orakpo- it certainly wouldn't have been a slam dunk, but I think if any DE from this draft will be ready on day 1, it will be him.
Dude, and I'm laughing.... you gave the strongest "unlikely" ever known to man and you know it. Come on (still laughing)

[TheMan08]

Orakpo never had more than 5 sacks in a season at Texas prior to the 11 this year. As Orakpo had a long college career.

Maybin only started one season. And had 12 sacks.

[OpIv37]

Ok, found it.

So if the draft wasn't going to help us this year anyway, what are you so pissed about? Since you seem to think I'm trying to put words in your mouth look at your post. The draft isn't going to help, but we should have taken Orakpo because we need help this year? So which is it? If Orakpo would have given us help this year doesn't that mean the draft would have helped this year? You say you don't see the problem here, but this is exactly it. For weeks before the draft you took the position that it wouldn't help make us contenders this year. So the draft comes, we pick Maybin, and now you take the position that it was the wrong choice because Orakpo would have provided us help this year. I can't speak for anyone else, but had you maintained your initial position of rookies rarely making significant contributions and made your arguments against Maybin because he was raw etc, then ok. But it looks like your running a reversal to continue you're tirade against the FO. You don't like Maybin? Fine, when we passed on Orakpo I screamed as well. But don't start making claims about Orakpo making a significant contribution this year after your argument about rookie contributions prior to the draft. The truth is you don't like Maybin...period. It isn't even logical but something in your gut just doesn't like him. I get it. I disagree, but I get it. So say that, take the abuse that comes with a hunch and move on. But don't change your entire position to justify your anger at a FO that has frustrated you for years. They've earned your anger and until they prove otherwise they will continue to. So don't flip flop, rookies rarely do make a huge contribution and the same would have applied for Orakpo.

I'm not flip flopping at all.

I said that rookies rarely make an impact in their first year- I stand by that and I have always stood by that.

But we are in a position where we NEED rookies to make an impact in their first year, or else we are just going to lose again. Therefore, the smart pick would have been the one most likely to help us now: Orakpo. I'm not saying he would definitely help us- it's still a gamble and it's still the wrong way to fill immediate needs. But it's a better chance of working out than Maybin.

I don't like the Maybin pick because he's undersized and lacks experience at the college level. Could he be a good NFL DE? Probably. Will he be a good NFL DE, or at least be equal to or better than Orakpo, on Week 1? Highly unlikely. It's very logical and it has nothing to do with gut feeling. I don't do anything by gut feeling- it's always logical.

It's really not that complicated.

[TheMan08]

So are you guaranteeing it OP. You said it's not that complicated and highly unlikely. Even though he is way faster and a harder worker.

[OpIv37]

So are you guaranteeing it OP. You said it's not that complicated and highly unlikely. Even though he is way faster and a harder worker.

how did you get "guarantee" from "highly unlikely"? Guarantee means no chance- highly unlikely means there's a chance- just not much of one. The two are mutually exclusive.

And there are no guarantees in sports- just different outcomes with various probabilities of occurring- some likely, some unlikely.

[OpIv37]

oh wait I forgot- there is one guarantee in sports. Saint Donte's playoff guarantee from last year :snicker:.

[Al the Bills Fan]

I must admit that I was less then pleased that we drafted Maybin while Orakpo was still on the board. Either of these guy SHOULD be upgrades over Kelsey/Denney which was kinda the point. We can agrue over which one would have been the biggest immediate/long-term success but the simple fact is that none of us know who will be the bigger/brighter star of the two until they get out on the field and prove it.

I think Orakpo certainly has the more NFL ready body right now but his knock has been that he takes plays off and can be lazy from time to time. My fear with Orakpo is that if he has been lazy in college what happens when you give him 20-30 million dollars? Does he stay motivated? Who knows...

I like Maybin, hard worker as evidenced by the bulking up. Seems to be really bright and wants to be here. Of course the knock on him is is size.

here's a question to chew on...Do the Bills finally move to a 3-4 when Dick is gone? If so, Maybin will be a Terrell Suggs type of OLB in a 3-4 scheme.

I am happy with Maybin. SHOULD be a huge upgrade over Kelsey/Denney. I guess people just want what they can't have sometimes...the grass is always greener i guess

[Captain gameboy]

I'm not flip flopping at all.

I said that rookies rarely make an impact in their first year- I stand by that and I have always stood by that.

But we are in a position where we NEED rookies to make an impact in their first year, or else we are just going to lose again.

Are you getting what I said here?

Per you, rookies don't make an impact.

Per you Orapko makes an impact, ( albeit a bigger no impact). Notice the logical divergence?

Per you, Orapko makes a bigger impact than Maybin, though neither will make an impact, and the Bills have, no doubt looked at film, conducted interviews and done all that can be done to see which one fits best with this team.

[HAMMER]

I'm sure glad there is new blood around to argue with Op, quite frankly he has worn me out.

[kid mickey]

I never liked Orakpo. I just joined this board this month. I didn't like him then and don't like him now. I liked Everette Brown the most, but knew he was a second round guy. The Bills like Aaron Maybin the most obviously and I like him more than Orakpo so I can't complain so much. I honestly think Orakpo is gonna bust. Don't think the guy outperforms Maybin in any way this year or over the course of their careers. I could be wrong cause Maybin could bust as well. In fact I would say as far as bust potential they are about even, just for different reasons. I think Orakpo has a really low ceiling and with Maybin the sky is the limit. Maybin is boom or bust, Orakpo is ok or bust. We will see.

[OpIv37]

Are you getting what I said here?

Per you, rookies don't make an impact.

Per you Orapko makes an impact, ( albeit a bigger no impact). Notice the logical divergence?

Per you, Orapko makes a bigger impact than Maybin, though neither will make an impact, and the Bills have, no doubt looked at film, conducted interviews and done all that can be done to see which one fits best with this team.

Per me, rookies USUALLY don't make an impact.

Per me, Orakpo is MORE LIKELY to make an impact than Maybin.

You are misrepresenting what I said, again. You're talking in absolutes and I wasn't. And you're neglecting a key part of what I said: taking Orakpo for immediate help would still be a gamble, but it's less of a gamble than taking Maybin for immediate help. And we need to take every chance we can at finding immediate help, because clearly the guys we have can't get it done.

I don't like having to rely on rookies for immediate help because they usually don't bring it, but that's the situation we're in. And Orakpo is more likely than Maybin. It's a long shot, but it's the better long shot.

How many times and how many ways do I have to say it?

Yes, I'm sure the FO looked film, conducted interviews and chose who they thought was the best fit, just like they did with Whitner, McCargo, Simpson, Wright, Omon, Hardy.....

[OpIv37]

I'm sure glad there is new blood around to argue with Op, quite frankly he has worn me out.

most people don't get tired of being wrong as quickly as you do.

[jmb1099]

I'm not flip flopping at all.

I said that rookies rarely make an impact in their first year- I stand by that and I have always stood by that.

But we are in a position where we NEED rookies to make an impact in their first year, or else we are just going to lose again. Therefore, the smart pick would have been the one most likely to help us now: Orakpo. I'm not saying he would definitely help us- it's still a gamble and it's still the wrong way to fill immediate needs. But it's a better chance of working out than Maybin.

I don't like the Maybin pick because he's undersized and lacks experience at the college level. Could he be a good NFL DE? Probably. Will he be a good NFL DE, or at least be equal to or better than Orakpo, on Week 1? Highly unlikely. It's very logical and it has nothing to do with gut feeling. I don't do anything by gut feeling- it's always logical.

It's really not that complicated.
I agree, it isn't that complicated and yet it seems like you're making it that way. On one hand you say, rather emphatically, that rookies very rarely make an impact in their rookie year. Then you say we need them too (in big letters too). So immediately you have created an unrealistic expectation. All the while calling out others with unreal expectations. You say Orakpo has a better chance then Maybin, but you really don't expect either one to contribute this year, but you think Orakpo had a better chance to do what you maintain almost never happens. Wow.

[OpIv37]

I agree, it isn't that complicated and yet it seems like you're making it that way. On one hand you say, rather emphatically, that rookies very rarely make an impact in their rookie year. Then you say we need them too (in big letters too). So immediately you have created an unrealistic expectation. All the while calling out others with unreal expectations. You say Orakpo has a better chance then Maybin, but you really don't expect either one to contribute this year, but you think Orakpo had a better chance to do what you maintain almost never happens. Wow.

I didn't create any expectation- the FO did by putting us in this situation in the first place.

Your last sentence is 100% what I'm getting at. All we have left is a small chance. That's it- that's the situation that the FO created. They left themselves with one small option and they didn't even take it. WTF?

[acehole]

So are you guaranteeing it OP. You said it's not that complicated and highly unlikely. Even though he is way faster and a harder worker.

All the positions we picked can start OG and FS and WLB.

DE wont start but it doesnt mater...he will have as much playing time as he can handle and he will rotate and give the guys a breather which helps the DE stay fresher and rested. Nelsen can start even...as a polished route runner he will be fine. The front office has been lacking...but they got a #2 WR for Trent a TE and the interior linemen will help the running game which will open up the pass. They are commited to Trent and they are giving hime help. I say start all the rookies...we were not going to win a SB anyway this year. Let them get the experience.

Defensive rookies seem to be able to start and play well sooner then the offensive guys except for the OG OC who can step in from day one. TE is an exception but we are not a TE heavy offense so that will be minimized as well.

OP have a beer...wait for preseason.

[jmb1099]

I didn't create any expectation- the FO did by putting us in this situation in the first place.

Your last sentence is 100% what I'm getting at. All we have left is a small chance. That's it- that's the situation that the FO created. They left themselves with one small option and they didn't even take it. WTF?
Perhaps you didn't create an unrealistic expectation, but you sure do have it nonetheless. Did you seriously think that Orakpo is such a stud that he would make or break this years season? Of course you didn't, at least what you posted pre-draft leads me to believe you didn't. So pre-draft you tell everyone its over before its over, post draft, you tell everyone that its really over now because we didn't take Orakpo???
Not everyone liked Orakpo as much as some of us did, not just the FO either. The FO did however recognize that there was a need at that position, weather or not they chose correctly remains to be seen. I hope they chose well, I would have chosen differently, it is what it is. But you maintain that rookies, no matter who they are, rarely make an impact. The player you wanted that was passed on doesn't suddenly become the exception to the rule. To say he might have been would be unrealistic by your own standards.

[justasportsfan]

I'm not sure that Maybin will make any huge impact either.


He's another typical Tampa2 DE. He's light. Maybin struggled vs. the run in college and it'll even be harder at the pro level.

MY biggest worry is that teams like the PAts will do the same thing they did to Schobel. Run straight at him or push him to the outside and wear him down. Last year was Schobels best year against the run . He tweeked his game but it affected his pass rushing ability.

Maybin is a pup and if our coaches don't fix this fast, we are going to need to send Whitner and have to find a better lb'er than Ellison to support Maybin against the run. This is why I think why we loaded up on db's . They are going to hold up the fort while we send some of our safeties to support the run. This also affected Whitners play. The guy was switched between SS and FS instead of just concentrating on one position.

[mercyrule]

Oh for God's sakes.

[Ingtar33]

250 is not fine for a DE, because if he's listed at 250, he's probably closer to 240. When Schobel's weight went from 260 down to 243, his sacks went from 14 to 6.5.

This D has been trying to get away with undersized players for years and they consistently get burned by it.

I agree, he'll probably get bigger over the years. But what good does that do us NOW? Once again, the FO insists on building for a future that never actually arrives. It's ****ing Groundhog Day.



so...

Aaron Maybin 6'4" 252 (combine)
Javon Kearse 6'4" 250 (official)
Aaron Schobel 6'4" 243 (official)
Jason Taylor 6'6" 244 (official)

maybin is too small, and not ready? He's bigger then Kearse, Taylor and Schobel... All of whom have been very successful. Orakpo is a physical freak, but he's not in Maybin's class of pass rusher. Yes he's bigger, yes he's a much better 3 down player. But he's no where near the pass rusher Maybin is, and likely never will be the pass rusher maybin can become.

[mercyrule]

What did you say?

[OpIv37]

so...

Aaron Maybin 6'4" 252 (combine)
Javon Kearse 6'4" 250 (official)
Aaron Schobel 6'4" 243 (official)
Jason Taylor 6'6" 244 (official)

maybin is too small, and not ready? He's bigger then Kearse, Taylor and Schobel... All of whom have been very successful. Orakpo is a physical freak, but he's not in Maybin's class of pass rusher. Yes he's bigger, yes he's a much better 3 down player. But he's no where near the pass rusher Maybin is, and likely never will be the pass rusher maybin can become.

Schobel is overrated and Taylor is washed up. If all Maybin ever becomes is another Schobel, I'll be very disappointed. And for the record, Schobel was listed as 260 or so the last year he had double digit sacks, then when his listed weight went down, so did his sack total. So you gave me two good examples, one who is way past his prime and both of whom are unique physical specimens. A handful of guys are effective in the 250 range at DE, most are not.

Oh, btw, Maybin was 236 a few months ago and just bulked up to that new number. Will he be able to keep that weight on, especially during NFL training camp in scorching summer heat? Will he be as effective at that weight?