Bills copying Colts, Bears to an extent

[kid mickey]

In a lot of different aspects of the game. They are making a different kind of mark though.

They get bigger linebackers than the Colts to be stout against the run. Poz is your run stuffer who plays the middle field in coverage, while Mitchell covers the TE and now with Harris coming in he will be responsible for covering the flat areas and playing the RB.

They place a premium on safeties like the Bears one to be a playmaker the other to do everything. Whitner is the do everything guy, while Byrd may be the center fielder making plays.

They place a higher premium on DT's than the Colts do, probably right on par with what the Bears do. They like size at the position. Whereareas the Colts just like gap penetrators. They have Stroud comanding double teams and usually want the other tackle to penetrate. McCargo has yet to adequately do this. Kyle Williams performs admirally considering his draft position.

The Bills are starting to put a premium on rushing the passer. The Colts game is all about this as a defense. They have Freeney and Mathis. Two guys with very quick steps. The Bills brought in Maybin because they feel he can be a bigger guy who can not only bring some heat in the passing game, but be well rounded in the running game as well.

The biggest difference the Bills have on both the Bears and Colts is there corners. They emphasize speed at the position and they don't just play zone they are actually in man a lot. McKelvin is a very well rounded corner, who has speed and McGee isn't slow either. The Bills usually don't draft guys to play corner if they don't run in the 4.3 to 4.5 range. If they drafted a DB that didn't run in that range he is most likely a safety.

[Tatonka]

good post.

[Pinkerton Security]

I don't think Nic Harris is going to be starting for us any time soon. other than that, i like your logic on these points.

[Mahdi]

I don't think Nic Harris is going to be starting for us any time soon. other than that, i like your logic on these points.
Considering who his competition is at the SLB position in Ellison I think he has a pretty good shot of starting.

[EDS]

In a lot of different aspects of the game. They are making a different kind of mark though.

They get bigger linebackers than the Colts to be stout against the run. Poz is your run stuffer who plays the middle field in coverage, while Mitchell covers the TE and now with Harris coming in he will be responsible for covering the flat areas and playing the RB.

They place a premium on safeties like the Bears one to be a playmaker the other to do everything. Whitner is the do everything guy, while Byrd may be the center fielder making plays.

They place a higher premium on DT's than the Colts do, probably right on par with what the Bears do. They like size at the position. Whereareas the Colts just like gap penetrators. They have Stroud comanding double teams and usually want the other tackle to penetrate. McCargo has yet to adequately do this. Kyle Williams performs admirally considering his draft position.

The Bills are starting to put a premium on rushing the passer. The Colts game is all about this as a defense. They have Freeney and Mathis. Two guys with very quick steps. The Bills brought in Maybin because they feel he can be a bigger guy who can not only bring some heat in the passing game, but be well rounded in the running game as well.

The biggest difference the Bills have on both the Bears and Colts is there corners. They emphasize speed at the position and they don't just play zone they are actually in man a lot. McKelvin is a very well rounded corner, who has speed and McGee isn't slow either. The Bills usually don't draft guys to play corner if they don't run in the 4.3 to 4.5 range. If they drafted a DB that didn't run in that range he is most likely a safety.

A couple of points:

The Colts defense is designed to stop the pass because they have such an explosive offense they can more often then not play with a lead which requires the opponent to pass their way back into the game. That being said, their defense is pretty average, at best.

No team drafts corners who run slow. 4.5 is slow for corners these days.

[Mr. Pink]

We're copying the Bears and Colts? HA

Where's our pass rush?

Where's our playmaking Safety?

Where's our LBers that fit the scheme?

I could keep going but seriously man, I can't believe people agreed with you on your points.

[kid mickey]

A couple of points:

The Colts defense is designed to stop the pass because they have such an explosive offense they can more often then not play with a lead which requires the opponent to pass their way back into the game. That being said, their defense is pretty average, at best.

No team drafts corners who run slow. 4.5 is slow for corners these days.

For the most part I like your points except your last one. The Colts and Bears are heavy on their zone scheme. They get corners that run in the 4.5 to 4.7 range because they can have these guys sit in zones and wait for the opposing QB to force the ball out or make a bad decision because of the generated pass rush by the DE's. They rarely are ever playing a man scheme. When was the last time you seen the Colts or Bears draft a CB in the first round? They get zone guys who usually do not press wide outs. You would be surprised then to know that Corner, McGee, Youboty, Lankster, all run around 4.45-4.5 speed. Don't know what C. Harris runs.

[kid mickey]

We're copying the Bears and Colts? HA

Where's our pass rush?

Where's our playmaking Safety?

Where's our LBers that fit the scheme?

I could keep going but seriously man, I can't believe people agreed with you on your points.

You should be surprised to know that the Colts were 11th in the league while the Bears were 21st then. I am not saying we are complete yet, but I do believe this team got three guys that they(Bills Brass) believe are the missing pieces to the puzzle to make a jump into the top ten D's in the league.

[Mahdi]

We're copying the Bears and Colts? HA

Where's our pass rush?

Where's our playmaking Safety?

Where's our LBers that fit the scheme?

I could keep going but seriously man, I can't believe people agreed with you on your points.
I think the whole point is that we addressed the pass rush, playmaking safety and LBs who fit the scheme in the draft.

We did draft Maybin, Byrd and Harris yesterday did we not?

[Mr. Pink]

I think the whole point is that we addressed the pass rush, playmaking safety and LBs who fit the scheme in the draft.

We did draft Maybin, Byrd and Harris yesterday did we not?


That gives us maybe one guy who can supply pass rush...I'll be optimistic and say it works out. The Colts have Freeney and Mathis who both get after it. If Maybin is a "stud" he'll be doubled and taken out of many plays because outside of Stroud no one else on our line to worry about.

Harris is a project obviously, seeing we're converting him from safety to LB. Will he make the transition? Who's to know or say...It's definitely a step towards filling our needs though, I'll give you that.

I'm not a fan of the Byrd pick at all to be honest. I think it's a complete waste. We needed a Safety so why take a corner to convert? Why not just take one of the top 3 safeties in the draft in William Moore? Oh wait, that would make sense. The pick is truly a head scratcher.

[Mahdi]

That gives us maybe one guy who can supply pass rush...I'll be optimistic and say it works out. The Colts have Freeney and Mathis who both get after it. If Maybin is a "stud" he'll be doubled and taken out of many plays because outside of Stroud no one else on our line to worry about.

Harris is a project obviously, seeing we're converting him from safety to LB. Will he make the transition? Who's to know or say...It's definitely a step towards filling our needs though, I'll give you that.

I'm not a fan of the Byrd pick at all to be honest. I think it's a complete waste. We needed a Safety so why take a corner to convert? Why not just take one of the top 3 safeties in the draft in William Moore? Oh wait, that would make sense. The pick is truly a head scratcher.
Maybe Byrd offers a skill set Moore doesn't have.

Byrd is not just a playmaker. He is a great open field tackler and he is tough. Playing CB in college means he has good coverage skills which allows him to come down and cover a receiver if he needs to. Moore cant do that.

[Don't Panic]

Good post, mickey. I was thinking about that the other day... how in year four of the Cover 2 we may finally have gotten it to semi-elite status. At a minimum, this should be the best defense we have fielded in the Jauron Era.

The thing I still don't get about the safeties is why you need a strong and a free. If they are simply splitting the field in half, does it really matter that one can do things much better than the other? I would guess certain situations would call for this as a need, but not many. I'd just want two hard hitters with decent read and react ability back there...

I love what our corners should be able to do in this system this year. With a little bit more of a pass rush, they will be able to be ball hawking in many more situations, which should lead to a spike in INTs. We are going to have four quality guys out there in dime... that is a huge asset.

The only one who can really make or break this defense this year is Schoebel. If he has a career year and Maybin does simply the minimum of what is expected, watch out. if not, we are going to look a lot like the Ds of old... bend, bend, bend, break.

[Mr. Pink]

Maybe Byrd offers a skill set Moore doesn't have.

Byrd is not just a playmaker. He is a great open field tackler and he is tough. Playing CB in college means he has good coverage skills which allows him to come down and cover a receiver if he needs to. Moore cant do that.


Except the Safeties in a cover 2 don't need to be able to come down and cover a wr. They just play in space and cover areas...so Byrd's coverage skills are completely negated and useless because of the scheme we run.

There is a learning curve that is undergone from being a corner to being a safety...why not just take someone who already is knowledgable about the position and his responsibility as a Safety, instead of going with a project.

Especially when it's the 2nd round.

[Mahdi]

Except the Safeties in a cover 2 don't need to be able to come down and cover a wr. They just play in space and cover areas...so Byrd's coverage skills are completely negated and useless because of the scheme we run.

There is a learning curve that is undergone from being a corner to being a safety...why not just take someone who already is knowledgable about the position and his responsibility as a Safety, instead of going with a project.

Especially when it's the 2nd round.
First of all the Cover 2 is a concept not a set of rules. Our safeties are used in nickel situations a lot actually and they also come to the LOS sometimes to cover TEs.

Second, making the move from CB to S is not difficult. It is an easier position to play and if you put an instinctive CB at safety (assuming he has the size to play it which Byrd does) what you'll get often is a playmaker back there since he doesn't have to worry about covering a WR but just using his instincts to make plays in space.

[kid mickey]

Actually Whitner is a safety that can play the 3rd WR. He does it really well. That was also something the DB coach said about Byrd as well. The thing I like most about Byrd is that he seems to have a similar skill set to Donte. With Donte being meaner in his hits and Byrd being the guy who could get you the picks. I like this dynamic and both these guys are the exact same size. I am looking forward to seeing what they can do together. Also it really isn't that hard of a transition for corner to make the switch to safety when you are already safety size and have safety skills. Its harder to make a safety into a cornerback.

[Mr. Pink]

First of all the Cover 2 is a concept not a set of rules. Our safeties are used in nickel situations a lot actually and they also come to the LOS sometimes to cover TEs.

Second, making the move from CB to S is not difficult. It is an easier position to play and if you put an instinctive CB at safety (assuming he has the size to play it which Byrd does) what you'll get often is a playmaker back there since he doesn't have to worry about covering a WR but just using his instincts to make plays in space.


If that's the case why don't more teams take corners and move them to Safety?

Why was Deion Sanders a safety? Hanford Dixon? Charles Woodson? Champ Bailey? etc..

If they excel at corner then they should be that much better at Safety, right?

[kid mickey]

Honestly he(Byrd) could be our Ed Reed. Similar size similar skills.

[Pinkerton Security]

Honestly he(Byrd) could be our Ed Reed. Similar size similar skills.

eh, lets not start throwing that name around, Ed Reed is other-worldly.

[Mahdi]

If that's the case why don't more teams take corners and move them to Safety?

Why was Deion Sanders a safety? Hanford Dixon? Charles Woodson? Champ Bailey? etc..

If they excel at corner then they should be that much better at Safety, right?
Wrong.

If you have a CB that is elite you keep him at CB because that is a tougher position to play.

Byrd was not seen as an elite CB but he had the qualities the Bills covet for a FS. Size, tackling, instincts, playmaking.

[Mr. Pink]

Actually Whitner is a safety that can play the 3rd WR. He does it really well. That was also something the DB coach said about Byrd as well. The thing I like most about Byrd is that he seems to have a similar skill set to Donte. With Donte being meaner in his hits and Byrd being the guy who could get you the picks. I like this dynamic and both these guys are the exact same size. I am looking forward to seeing what they can do together. Also it really isn't that hard of a transition for corner to make the switch to safety when you are already safety size and have safety skills. Its harder to make a safety into a cornerback.

That's because Donte isn't a very good Safety at this level, unfortunately.

And I really liked the kid out of Ohio St. ask anyone who was on the board back when we took him, I was one of his main "pimps" I guess on the board when a lot of people were down on him as the guy.

He lacks instincts to be a playmaker which is evidenced by his career stats that are absolutely atrocious for what his role in the defense is supposed to be.

And where does this hard hitter label he gets come from? He's made one "hard hit" in his entire career and gets run over, through or around constantly.

[kid mickey]

If that's the case why don't more teams take corners and move them to Safety?

Why was Deion Sanders a safety? Hanford Dixon? Charles Woodson? Champ Bailey? etc..

If they excel at corner then they should be that much better at Safety, right?

Actually if you are talking like would they be like a Ed Reed? Depends on how good their zone coverage is. Sanders could have done it. Woodson probably will be doing it soon. Bailey just doesn't have the body. I think he is an excellent corner he just wouldn't be the most feared safety. I am sure he would do good enough though.

[EDS]

For the most part I like your points except your last one. The Colts and Bears are heavy on their zone scheme. They get corners that run in the 4.5 to 4.7 range because they can have these guys sit in zones and wait for the opposing QB to force the ball out or make a bad decision because of the generated pass rush by the DE's. They rarely are ever playing a man scheme. When was the last time you seen the Colts or Bears draft a CB in the first round? They get zone guys who usually do not press wide outs. You would be surprised then to know that Corner, McGee, Youboty, Lankster, all run around 4.45-4.5 speed. Don't know what C. Harris runs.

The Colts used a first round pick on a corner in 2005.

The Bills have probably used more first round draft picks on defensive backs then any franchise in the past 10-15 years (Henry Jones, J.D. Williams, Thomas Smith, Jeff Burris, Antoine Winfield, Nate Clements, Donte Whitner, Leodis McKelvin, etc.).

The point though, is I am not sure why the Bills would want to emulate either the Colts or Bears defense. The Bears defense is really good every third or fourth year when everyone is healthy and things fall into place, but otherwise it is an average defense that only works when Tommie Harris is impersonating Warren Sapp. The Colts defense is just not that good period, and relies on the offense to force teams to pass to catch-up - which is the only strength of that ream. The Bills don't have a Tommie Harris type of interior penetrator on their roster - and their front seven in general is not as talented, and their offense is still not in the Indy stratosphere.

[Mr. Pink]

Wrong.

If you have a CB that is elite you keep him at CB because that is a tougher position to play.

Byrd was not seen as an elite CB but he had the qualities the Bills covet for a FS. Size, tackling, instincts, playmaking.


How is that wrong?

If you're a team who puts an emphasis on the cover 2, why would you bother ever drafting a true safety? Just draft corners and plug them in, because they'll be playmakers! Or when you sign FAs just sign corners and turn them into Safeties.

Generally corners who get "changed" into safeties have that happen because of diminished skill level and the inability to play corner anymore. Not because of your reasoning that "hey they could be a huge playmaker."

It's a faulty argument and justification you're trying to use for a completely inept pick at the time...

[Mahdi]

How is that wrong?

If you're a team who puts an emphasis on the cover 2, why would you bother ever drafting a true safety? Just draft corners and plug them in, because they'll be playmakers! Or when you sign FAs just sign corners and turn them into Safeties.

Generally corners who get "changed" into safeties have that happen because of diminished skill level and the inability to play corner anymore. Not because of your reasoning that "hey they could be a huge playmaker."

It's a faulty argument and justification you're trying to use for a completely inept pick at the time...
I think yer trying to define things too much.

The Bills had a list of safeties on their board... they projected Byrd as a safety for them. He was rated higher than the natural safeties did so they took him. Simple as that.

Fact is, it was a weak safety class and they liked Byrd's skill set enough to draft him as a safety. It really isn't any more complicated than that.

[kid mickey]

That's because Donte isn't a very good Safety at this level, unfortunately.

And I really liked the kid out of Ohio St. ask anyone who was on the board back when we took him, I was one of his main "pimps" I guess on the board when a lot of people were down on him as the guy.

He lacks instincts to be a playmaker which is evidenced by his career stats that are absolutely atrocious for what his role in the defense is supposed to be.

And where does this hard hitter label he gets come from? He's made one "hard hit" in his entire career and gets run over, through or around constantly.

Look every DB will get run over. That is a fact. He can't really explode into RB's as well as he can with WR's. I will say I give him an A for effort. Watch film of the kid he is always around the ball. He is no slouch. The Bills ask him to do numerous things. Perry Fewell made a comment about how he has Whitner do everything. He plays the nickel role, he plays the los, he plays saftey, he is never roaming free. Guys like Polamalu and Reed are roaming free most of the time. They look good because their team puts them in position to make big plays. Whitner does a lot of dirty work for this team. I float ideas out their about players to see how fans react to them. Like I made a thread about Whitner being worried about losing his job. I don't know if anybody saw it or what, but not a lot of people responded. I personally think that he is a solid player, exceptional leader, and a great guy to have in the locker room. I count on him to contribute to this team week in and week out.

[kid mickey]

The Colts used a first round pick on a corner in 2005.

The Bills have probably used more first round draft picks on defensive backs then any franchise in the past 10-15 years (Henry Jones, J.D. Williams, Thomas Smith, Jeff Burris, Antoine Winfield, Nate Clements, Donte Whitner, Leodis McKelvin, etc.).

The point though, is I am not sure why the Bills would want to emulate either the Colts or Bears defense. The Bears defense is really good every third or fourth year when everyone is healthy and things fall into place, but otherwise it is an average defense that only works when Tommie Harris is impersonating Warren Sapp. The Colts defense is just not that good period, and relies on the offense to force teams to pass to catch-up - which is the only strength of that ream. The Bills don't have a Tommie Harris type of interior penetrator on their roster - and their front seven in general is not as talented, and their offense is still not in the Indy stratosphere.

What did he run?

[kid mickey]

I'll tell you. Since you won't tell me. Marlin Jackson ran a 4.49 on a fast surface at his pro day. I'm trying to find his combine report, but I know it was in the 4.5-4.6 range. His greatest aspect is zone coverage. He can't afford to make mistakes because he will get beat deep. Has to have a safety over top protecting him. The thing about the Bills is they don't always have to have their safeties over top protecting their cornerbacks.

[EDS]

I'll tell you. Since you won't tell me. Marlin Jackson ran a 4.49 on a fast surface at his pro day. I'm trying to find his combine report, but I know it was in the 4.5-4.6 range. His greatest aspect is zone coverage. He can't afford to make mistakes because he will get beat deep. Has to have a safety over top protecting him. The thing about the Bills is they don't always have to have their safeties over top protecting their cornerbacks.

The Bills play their corners like safeties - 10 yards off the line of scrimmage. And again, there is no reason to copy the Colts defense since it is not that good.

[Spiderweb]

If that's the case why don't more teams take corners and move them to Safety?

Why was Deion Sanders a safety? Hanford Dixon? Charles Woodson? Champ Bailey? etc..

If they excel at corner then they should be that much better at Safety, right?


Short memories or youth, but Henry Jones was a college CB who was immediately converted to SS. Bills have done this. We also have a history of taking college OT's and making them Guards (Ruben Brown, etc). The Bills are not alone in this.

[Don't Panic]

Slow CBs don't necessarily make good safeties... you need to be able to tackle to be a safety, much more so than a CB. Safeties are the last line of defense - quick and tough. They should be a combination of CB and LB, especially in the Cover 2.

[acehole]

With all due respect you are the last authority on football behind Padadin Warrior and Mitchel.



We're copying the Bears and Colts? HA

Where's our pass rush?

Where's our playmaking Safety?

Where's our LBers that fit the scheme?

I could keep going but seriously man, I can't believe people agreed with you on your points.

[Mahdi]

Slow CBs don't necessarily make good safeties... you need to be able to tackle to be a safety, much more so than a CB. Safeties are the last line of defense - quick and tough. They should be a combination of CB and LB, especially in the Cover 2.
Exactly why they drafted Byrd. At 5-10 207 he has the build of a safety and his tackling is one of the reasons they felt he could make the transition.

[Mr. Pink]

With all due respect you are the last authority on football behind Padadin Warrior and Mitchel.


Oh yeah I forgot, because you're the expert on guys skill levels...like Losmans!

MY BAD!

[Don't Panic]

Exactly why they drafted Byrd. At 5-10 207 he has the build of a safety and his tackling is one of the reasons they felt he could make the transition.

And I agree... I was more aiming it to those who spoke to the one ball hawking safety to go with the hard hitting safety, which would work in a traditional D, but doesn't seem to be a necessity of the Cover 2.

[kid mickey]

And I agree... I was more aiming it to those who spoke to the one ball hawking safety to go with the hard hitting safety, which would work in a traditional D, but doesn't seem to be a necessity of the Cover 2.

Are you serious? Most Cover Two teams would kill to have a ball hawk safety and a hard hitting safety on the same squad. The problem is its tough to find two guys who can do it effectively. The Colts try to do it with Bob Sanders and Antoine Bethea, The Bears tried to do it with Archuleta and Mike Brown. It really depends on what you expect out of your safeties. I honestly believe they got Byrd because they want Whitner roaming everywhere. They feel he can and they want him to be our Bob Sanders. He is not the guy who gets a million and one picks. People need to accept that now. He is the guy who is your do everything DB. You want him to play the line he can, you want him to cover a TE he can, you want him to the lay the wood on a receiver he can, you want him to cover the flats he can. This kid just hasn't had the right guy who can play centerfield and let him do what he wants to do. Honestly Whitner is all over the field. There is a reason the Raiders want to trade Michael Huff and Donte Whitner is still starting everywhere. Appreciate him for what he is. Byrd is the guy who is gonna play FS and get the picks. He is a good open field tackler from reports and he can cover nickel corners as well. You get guys that fit your scheme and do what you want them to do.

[acehole]

Oh yeah I forgot, because you're the expert on guys skill levels...like Losmans!

MY BAD!


No because you were blaming him for the fact we needed Stroud dumbazz.

Keep going it is fun to watch you dig your grave with the others.

The more you post the more you expose yourself.