Paul Hamilton says Nelson's Raw [Archive] - BillsZone.com

Lexwhat

05-04-2009, 01:24 AM

Before anyone says anything, I'm just the messenger.

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http://www.wgr550.com/Bills-wrap-up-rookie-camp/4319093

Fourth round pick Shawn Nelson got a lot of attention from tightends coach Charlie Coiner throughout. The TE seems rather raw. Coiner was working on his precision both with route running and turning up field after the catch. It actually got to the point where Nelson was trying to get away from him as he was speaking with him after every play.

realdealryan

05-04-2009, 01:34 AM

shhhhh Lex, that's not what they're selling at OBD-

http://www.buffalobills.com/assets/img/ads/chrisbrown_headshot_new96x94.gif

"Bills scout Shawn Heinlen said shortly after Nelson was selected with the 121st pick that he's ``an extremely athletic tight end who can help right away.''

"Two days into a three-day minicamp, Nelson hasn't provided the Bills much reason to think differently, showing glimpses of many of the strengths touted in pre-draft scouting reports."

"Nelson's also got solid hands and a great knack for adjusting to errant throws. Several times on Friday, Nelson was able to reach back and down to snag low passes without missing a step. On Saturday, he ran an out pattern to his right and reached back for a pass thrown behind him to make a one-handed catch while keeping both feet inbounds."

:rolleyes:

Mitchell55

05-04-2009, 01:41 AM

Its to be expected

plundar

05-04-2009, 01:43 AM

That's good. They are coaching him up. Starting day one...

elltrain22

05-04-2009, 05:01 AM

he's a rookie, his skills are supposed to be raw. Every rookie right now, w/ every team has "raw" skills.

Wally The Barber

05-04-2009, 05:08 AM

How did McKelvin look last year, less then Raw!

Derek Fine said he thought the Bills were going to waive him!

Night Train

05-04-2009, 05:36 AM

This just in ..

It's May 4th

MikeInRoch

05-04-2009, 06:11 AM

A rookie?? Raw??? No WAY!

chernobylwraiths

05-04-2009, 06:18 AM

BUST!!!

methos4ever

05-04-2009, 06:46 AM

Quick - call Nelson's agent....Southern Mississippi's coaches aren't up to par to the USCs, Ohio States and LSUs of the NCAA! How did he even get into the NFL??

Jan Reimers

05-04-2009, 06:47 AM

Perhaps that's why he lasted until the 4th round.

HHURRICANE

05-04-2009, 07:56 AM

BUST!!!

Pro Bowl!!

This is the Ying and Yang of this board.

OpIv37

05-04-2009, 07:59 AM

ddaryl

05-04-2009, 08:03 AM

lets have this conversation after a few pre-season games.

then we will all have developed a realalisitc hypothesis and will be better prepared to discuss how raw / talented he really is

mikemac2001

05-04-2009, 08:03 AM

The guy will make plays and help the team

psubills62

05-04-2009, 08:07 AM

Um, no one's said he isn't raw. Gee, who would have thought...you mean he's not a Pro-Bowler after his first rookie mini-camp?

Do I think the kid can contribute this year? Of course. Will he be a star this year? Not a chance.

Pinkerton Security

05-04-2009, 08:13 AM

i dont think anyone expects him to come in here and be a pro-bowler right away, or even a legit starter. that would be unreasonable.

cocamide

05-04-2009, 08:17 AM

I just hope that he can pick up the playbook and contribute more than Hardy was able to.

HHURRICANE

05-04-2009, 08:22 AM

He's a 4th round draft pick in his first mini-camp less than two weeks after he was drafted. Of course he's raw.

The FO and some of the homeristic fans on here want us to think that we got Brandon Pettigrew in the 4th round and the guy's gonna come in and play like Antonio Gates from day 1, but that's not realistic.

Exactly. You are not a fan if you don't think the Guy is going to play like Gonzales.

People forget that only 2% of the draft picks actually start in the NFL their first season. 2%!!! I heard that on Sirrius the other day from Peter King and I didn't even realize it was that low.

So when people get all excited about Levitre and Wood and Maybin they might need to realize that the team that is bringing them to the playoffs is last year's roster and any vets that we have signed through FA.

McKelvin, Corner, Johnson, and Hardy are supposed to be the players that contribute, not this year's class.

ILOVEMIBILLS

05-04-2009, 08:29 AM

Exactly. You are not a fan if you don't think the Guy is going to play like Gonzales.

People forget that only 2% of the draft picks actually start in the NFL their first season. 2%!!! I heard that on Sirrius the other day from Peter King and I didn't even realize it was that low.

So when people get all excited about Levitre and Wood and Maybin they might need to realize that the team that is bringing them to the playoffs is last year's roster and any vets that we have signed through FA.

McKelvin, Corner, Johnson, and Hardy are supposed to be the players that contribute, not this year's class.

Actually, that can't be accurate, as that would mean only 5 or 6 rookies out of the class of 256 start, and considering that typically most if not all first round players start, that figure can't be right.

scartown

05-04-2009, 08:32 AM

That 2% figure i would say is the first game of the season if it's even correct.

WeAreArthurMoates

05-04-2009, 08:37 AM

Is this to be expected but he did not drop a ball and looked atheletic out there. That's all I care about as he will be the number 2 two to start the year.

madness

05-04-2009, 08:40 AM

i dont think anyone expects him to come in here and be a pro-bowler right away, or even a legit starter. that would be unreasonable.

Op swears people do though. :idunno:

psubills62

05-04-2009, 08:44 AM

Exactly. You are not a fan if you don't think the Guy is going to play like Gonzales.

People forget that only 2% of the draft picks actually start in the NFL their first season. 2%!!! I heard that on Sirrius the other day from Peter King and I didn't even realize it was that low.

So when people get all excited about Levitre and Wood and Maybin they might need to realize that the team that is bringing them to the playoffs is last year's roster and any vets that we have signed through FA.

McKelvin, Corner, Johnson, and Hardy are supposed to be the players that contribute, not this year's class.

Just because they don't start doesn't mean they can't contribute.

Considering that 2% (which other people pointed out simply can't be correct, as it means only 5 rookies would start every year) figure also includes late-rounders, I'd love to see what the figure is relevant to 1st and 2nd-rounders.

You really don't think that Levitre and Wood will contribute this year at all? Yeah...ok.

OpIv37

05-04-2009, 08:50 AM

Op swears people do though. :idunno:

http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?t=174414

He's going to make the biggest impact of any rookie we have this year, IMO.

Me too dude!! How and why he was still there in rd 4 is a mystery to me. Alls I know is, when I saw his name that we had just drafted, I pumped my fist, screamed loud as hell, and scared the crap outta my dogs!! :blowup: :blowup:

I'm not one to be overly optimistic about the Bills in the offseason usually, but this year.. it just seems different. Beast Mode, Action, Rhoders, Tee n' Lee, Josh, Stevie, Sco, James, Nelson, Schouman, Fine, revamped line...

It's exciting way too early.

That's just from one thread, to say nothing of the BB.com article that inspired the thread in the first place. There are more but I don't have time to dig them up right now.

Coach Sal

05-04-2009, 09:05 AM

Who knows? Maybe he really has troubles in certain areas? Maybe Coach Coiner is making an example of him to other rookies? Maybe Coach knows this kid's going to be expected to do more than the average rookie TE this year and wants to start coaching him up a little extra early on?

Remember, Nelson's the only rookie pass catcher we actually drafted. So it makes sense he's going to get a little more attention from the receivers coach. But don't read too much into that stuff - good or bad - right now. There are a lot of reasons coaches get on new guys early on.

I covered training camp last year and one of the biggest things I remember from being down on the field was how much the DB coach and Perry Fewell both were all over McKelvin all the time. It was non-stop. After every play.....even cussing at him that he wasn't paying attention to the calls and/or didn't know his assignment. Lots of instruction going on with him constantly.

And Reggie Corner, on the other hand, seemed as if he wasn't even there. No one said boo to him. Yet he was involved in the same drills, played in the same 7-on-7 sets, and was on the field just as much as Leodis that day.

Tatonka

05-04-2009, 09:17 AM

you dont have to be an all pro to come in on 3rd and short and burn the linebacker that is trying to cover you up the middle of the filed and score a TD.

he wont be an every down TE for us right now.. but he will contribute for sure.

madness

05-04-2009, 09:22 AM

http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?t=174414

That's just from one thread, to say nothing of the BB.com article that inspired the thread in the first place. There are more but I don't have time to dig them up right now.
I'm still not seeing the words Pro Bowl or Gates or anything touting anything close in those posts. Actually, I find the "Maybin is going to be a stud (no doubt)" thread a little more disconcerting then anything anybody has said about Nelson.

PromoTheRobot

05-04-2009, 09:38 AM

This just in ..

It's May 4th

So what. Cut him. He's already a bust.

PTR

Michael82

05-04-2009, 09:39 AM

Paul Hamilton is raw! :::

bigbub2352

05-04-2009, 09:41 AM

Hamilton is always so positive, he looks like a dead fish i cant stand how cocky he sounds on the radio
News Flash he is a 4th rd pick and he is being coached gee that is crazy

yordad

05-04-2009, 09:57 AM

Nelson will contribute. Of course he is raw.

Michael82

05-04-2009, 10:06 AM

Hamilton is always so positive

He is?!?! :shocked:

Maybe for the Sabres...but he's never positive for the Bills, because they don't pay his salary...unlike the Sabres. :yawn:

yordad

05-04-2009, 10:08 AM

madness

05-04-2009, 10:10 AM

He is?!?! :shocked:

Maybe for the Sabres...but he's never positive for the Bills, because they don't pay his salary...unlike the Sabres. :yawn:
Yours must be broke.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v358/AlexClarke/Starfighter/sarcasm_detector.jpg

Goobylal

05-04-2009, 10:44 AM

How are Pettigrew or any of the other rookie TE's looking? Not raw?

Lexwhat

05-04-2009, 11:02 AM

Who knows? Maybe he really has troubles in certain areas? Maybe Coach Coiner is making an example of him to other rookies? Maybe Coach knows this kid's going to be expected to do more than the average rookie TE this year and wants to start coaching him up a little extra early on?

Remember, Nelson's the only rookie pass catcher we actually drafted. So it makes sense he's going to get a little more attention from the receivers coach. But don't read too much into that stuff - good or bad - right now. There are a lot of reasons coaches get on new guys early on.

I think this is a great response. The staff does seem to have high hopes for Nelson, but IMO, it seems like he has a lot of work to do (not that other rookies are any different in this regard, but I suppose he lasted until the 4th round for a reason).

I foresee Nelson making the same level of contribution as Hardy did last year: Minimal. That's okay though...

The players that we absolutely need significant contributions from are Wood and Levitre. Maybin needs to contribute as a situational pass-rusher.

FlyingDutchman

05-04-2009, 11:10 AM

Man Op, for someone who always says people only read what they want from your posts, youre definatley guilty yourself. Those were terrible examples.

OpIv37

05-04-2009, 11:12 AM

Man Op, for someone who always says people only read what they want from your posts, youre definatley guilty yourself. Those were terrible examples.

I think the first one was pretty damn good- saying that Nelson should have a bigger impact than the two OL's who are supposed to start AND Maybin? That's setting the bar a little high.

And again- there are other examples- I just don't have time to dig them up at the moment.

Mr. Pink

05-04-2009, 11:14 AM

A 4th round rookie raw? Never!

Wouldn't have guessed that would have happened.

He's got a few months to get up to speed to make a good contribution to this team from week 1. Not too concerned at this time.

FlyingDutchman

05-04-2009, 11:18 AM

I think the first one was pretty damn good- saying that Nelson should have a bigger impact than the two OL's who are supposed to start AND Maybin? That's setting the bar a little high.

And again- there are other examples- I just don't have time to dig them up at the moment.

well first of all its an opinion. one persons opinion. hardly represents the whole board. Second what is so weird thinking this guy may have a bigger impact? Hes probably going to start. Which is already more than can be said for Maybin who will probably be a situational pass rusher. Also DEs dont usually make big impacts their rookie year. So that leaves him against two gaurds...do I really need to make the arguement about how the fastest and most athletic TE the bills have drafted in years may, just may, have a bigger impact that two gaurds?....

FlyingDutchman

05-04-2009, 11:20 AM

not saying those gaurds arent desperately needed and wont make a difference

FlyingDutchman

05-04-2009, 11:24 AM

who made a bigger impact last year....James Hardy (2nd round) and Chris Ellis (3rd)......or Reggie Corner(4th)....and Steve Johnson (7th).....

OpIv37

05-04-2009, 11:27 AM

well first of all its an opinion. one persons opinion. hardly represents the whole board. Second what is so weird thinking this guy may have a bigger impact? Hes probably going to start. Which is already more than can be said for Maybin who will probably be a situational pass rusher. Also DEs dont usually make big impacts their rookie year. So that leaves him against two gaurds...do I really need to make the arguement about how the fastest and most athletic TE the bills have drafted in years may, just may, have a bigger impact that two gaurds?....

The two guards will play every offensive down, whereas the TE won't. And the Bills have been under-utilizing TE's for as long as I can remember- Schonert and Fairchild included. Guards are not glamor positions and probably won't make any highlight reels, but if Wood and Levitre don't have more of an impact than Nelson this season, Trent is in for a world of hurt.

Lexwhat

05-04-2009, 11:28 AM

well first of all its an opinion. one persons opinion. hardly represents the whole board. Second what is so weird thinking this guy may have a bigger impact? Hes probably going to start. Which is already more than can be said for Maybin who will probably be a situational pass rusher. Also DEs dont usually make big impacts their rookie year. So that leaves him against two gaurds...do I really need to make the arguement about how the fastest and most athletic TE the bills have drafted in years may, just may, have a bigger impact that two gaurds?....

Nelson will NOT have a bigger impact than Wood and/or Levitre. If he does, then that means either:

(a) Nelson will be a pro-bowler this year. Highly unlikely.

or

(b) Wood and/or Levitre play like total crap. Even more unlikely.

Then you admit that DEs don't make big impacts their rookie year (which I agree with). But you say that a 4th Round TE might have the biggest impact since he's fast and athletic?? You are obviously contradicting yourself.

FlyingDutchman

05-04-2009, 11:42 AM

Nelson will NOT have a bigger impact than Wood and/or Levitre. If he does, then that means either:

(a) Nelson will be a pro-bowler this year. Highly unlikely.

or

(b) Wood and/or Levitre play like total crap. Even more unlikely.

Then you admit that DEs don't make big impacts their rookie year (which I agree with). But you say that a 4th Round TE might have the biggest impact since he's fast and athletic?? You are obviously contradicting yourself.

trying to say who has a bigger impact is hard since we're comparing apples to oranges. those scenerios do not have happen for someone to say nelson had a bigger impact. so if nelson catches 50 balls, and 4-5 TDs how would you not be able to argue he had a big impact? then how are you supposed to measure that against gaurds? How am i contradicting myself? Im not saying he is definately going to be a bigger impact simply bc he is fast and athletic, just simply that he is probably the most physically gifted athlete we've drafted at the TE position in probably 2 decades so why is it far fetched to think he could have a big impact?

FlyingDutchman

05-04-2009, 11:44 AM

FlyingDutchman

05-04-2009, 11:47 AM

The two guards will play every offensive down, whereas the TE won't. And the Bills have been under-utilizing TE's for as long as I can remember- Schonert and Fairchild included. Guards are not glamor positions and probably won't make any highlight reels, but if Wood and Levitre don't have more of an impact than Nelson this season, Trent is in for a world of hurt.

and i agree gaurds are not a glamour position so measuring this is hard. nobody is annointing this guy the next Mark Bavaro, but can you at least see how people would be excited?

Lexwhat

05-04-2009, 11:53 AM

trying to say who has a bigger impact is hard since we're comparing apples to oranges. those scenerios do not have happen for someone to say nelson had a bigger impact. so if nelson catches 50 balls, and 4-5 TDs how would you not be able to argue he had a big impact? then how are you supposed to measure that against gaurds? How am i contradicting myself? Im not saying he is definately going to be a bigger impact simply bc he is fast and athletic, just simply that he is probably the most physically gifted athlete we've drafted at the TE position in probably 2 decades so why is it far fetched to think he could have a big impact?

Of course it's apples to oranges. You made the comparison first though, and I just responded to it:

do I really need to make the arguement about how the fastest and most athletic TE the bills have drafted in years may, just may, have a bigger impact that two gaurds?....

My point was that a 4th round tight end is not going to have a measurable impact his ROOKIE season. Derek Fine and James Hardy COMBINED for 24 catches last season (we didn't even have TO last year either).

If Nelson catches more than 30 balls this year, I will be shocked. Most of the Offense will revolve around the RBs, TO, Lee, and Josh Reed.

OpIv37

05-04-2009, 11:56 AM

and i agree gaurds are not a glamour position so measuring this is hard. nobody is annointing this guy the next Mark Bavaro, but can you at least see how people would be excited?

excited? Yes.

Biggest impact of any rookie? No. That's not realistic.

FlyingDutchman

05-04-2009, 12:03 PM

excited? Yes.

Biggest impact of any rookie? No. That's not realistic.

ok well most people are excited, you singled out one person who says he thinks nelson could have the biggest impact. is it realistic? no maybe not, but who knows, it is possible.

bigbub2352

05-04-2009, 12:05 PM

He is?!?! :shocked:

Maybe for the Sabres...but he's never positive for the Bills, because they don't pay his salary...unlike the Sabres. :yawn:

read into the sarcasm my friend

yordad

05-04-2009, 12:23 PM

The two guards will play every offensive down, whereas the TE won't. And the Bills have been under-utilizing TE's for as long as I can remember- Schonert and Fairchild included. Guards are not glamor positions and probably won't make any highlight reels, but if Wood and Levitre don't have more of an impact than Nelson this season, Trent is in for a world of hurt.OK, then define "impact" in terms of football. Give me a measurement. Now, give me a measurement that compares the impact of a DE or OG to that of TE.

Point is it is very ambigious. There is no wrong answer, especially right now.

Lexwhat

05-04-2009, 12:34 PM

OK, then define "impact" in terms of football. Give me a measurement. Now, give me a measurement that compares the impact of a DE or OG to that of TE.

Point is it is very ambigious. There is no wrong answer, especially right now.

It does not necessarily have to be defined statistically. But that does NOT mean there's no wrong answer. Why can't we just watch the games and make judgments on who has a bigger impact?

Keith Ellison had 73 tackles last year, Kyle Williams had 55 tackles, while Stroud had 45.

Melvin Fowler and Duke Preston (probably) gave up less sacks than Langston Walker.

No one is stupid enough to say that Langston Walker and Marcus Stroud had less of an impact than Fowler / Preston or Williams / Ellison. Anyone with decent football knowledge knows that Stroud and Walker were two very big impact players for us. I'm sure we can judge Wood / Hangartner / Levitre using the same criteria.

yordad

05-04-2009, 12:41 PM

It does not necessarily have to be defined statistically. But that does NOT mean there's no wrong answer. Why can't we just watch the games and make judgments on who has a bigger impact?

Keith Ellison had 73 tackles last year, Kyle Williams had 55 tackles, while Stroud had 45.

Melvin Fowler and Duke Preston (probably) gave up less sacks than Langston Walker.

No one is stupid enough to say that Langston Walker and Marcus Stroud had less of an impact than Fowler / Preston or Williams / Ellison. Anyone with decent football knowledge knows that Stroud and Walker were two very big impact players for us. I'm sure we can judge Wood / Hangartner / Levitre using the same criteria.You cannot watch the game and decide because it is May. My point is it is all left open to interpretion and there isn't always a clear answer. My point is, there is no stat.

Lexwhat

05-04-2009, 01:00 PM

You cannot watch the game and decide because it is May. My point is it is all left open to interpretion and there isn't always a clear answer. My point is, there is no stat.
It's a substantiated prediction based on the low impact of NFL rookie TEs, compared with the impacts of rookie Guards (who can often start right away).

ROOKIES:
Jason Witten had 35 catches and 1 TD his rookie year.
Antonio Gates had 24 catches and 2 TDs.
Tony Gonzalez had 33 catches and 2 TDs.
Tony Scheffler had 18 catches and 4 TDs.
Alge Crumpler had 25 catches for 3 TDs.
Vernon Davis had 20 catches for 3 TDs.
Todd Heap had 16 catches and 1 TD.
Jeremy Shockey had 74 catches and 2 TDs (lone exception).
Kellen Winslow was a moron.

...If those stats don't put things into perspective, I don't know what will. Nelson was a 4th round pick, and the 6th Tight End drafted this year.

No one should expect him to have more than 30 catches this year... IMO, Nelson is at least 2 years away from making even a sizable impact.