NFL franchise in trouble

[Bmax]

With all the doom and gloom talk of the Bills leaving Western New York here is a story from the Sunshine state of a team that is in trouble unless ticket sales increase.. We are all too familiar with the struggles of the Jags in Jacksonville.


This just proves that that town will never be an NFL city...College Market ...

Now if they could just move now and get it over with ....Believe me the NFL is not married to Jacksonville With Tampa a three hour drive away....

Nice City growing and all, but will the people ever buy into that team ..

http://www.jacksonville.com/sports/columnists/gene_frenette/2009-05-17/story/all_those_empty_seats_a_concern


Bmax

[casdhf]

They have a contract to stay there until 2016. I really don't think Ralph will be able to hang on that long.

[Goobylal]

They have a contract to stay there until 2016. I really don't think Ralph will be able to hang on that long.
Contracts are made to be broken.

[theanswer74]

The sad thing about Jacksonville is they have been one of the best teams in the NFL.

[venis2k1]

The jags have had trouble drawing fans from day one. With Tampa and Atlanta not far away that isn't too shocking.

[theanswer74]

Lets not be kind to them, they are the team that ended Jim Kelly's career.

[venis2k1]

The sad thing about Jacksonville is they have been one of the best teams in the NFL.


I dont know if id go that far, they have been to the playoffs once in the last 10 years.

[Michael82]

If anyone deserves to go to LA, it's the Jaguars.

[theanswer74]

I dont know if id go that far, they have been to the playoffs once in the last 10 years.

Thats hard to do since they made it twice in the last 4 years.

They also have the 11th best winning % of all NFL teams.

They started their franchise by going to the playoffs 4 out of 5 years. If you cant bulid a following after that you never will.

[HHURRICANE]

If anyone deserves to go to LA, it's the Jaguars.


If Ralph would stop acting like it's us we would even be talking about the Bills moving.

He's half the problem.

[Michael82]

If Ralph would stop acting like it's us we would even be talking about the Bills moving.

He's half the problem.
agreed.

[venis2k1]

woops your right answer, twice in the last 9 years. clearly one of the best teams in the NFL. I forgot they went in 05, prolly cause they got stomped 28-3 in the wildcard game.

[The Spaz]

Jacksonville has the power of the tarp.

[BillsWin]

They are a pathetic fanbase. They tarp half of the stadium every single game to hide the shame. But, that just adds to the humiliation. We may have sucked for so long, and can't really talk as a franchise, but we have the best fanbase in pro football and would still go to the games no matter what kind of team we have. We have been 7-9 for the last three seasons, and missed the playoffs every season this decade and yet we have already sold over 50,000 season tickets according to tim graham. imagine that.

[theanswer74]

woops your right answer, twice in the last 9 years. clearly one of the best teams in the NFL. I forgot they went in 05, prolly cause they got stomped 28-3 in the wildcard game.

If they arent a good franchise, what does that make us?

They have a .527 winning % which is 11th all-time.

[The Spaz]

If they arent a good franchise, what does that make us?

They have a .527 winning % which is 11th all-time.

That may be but they haven't been existence as long as other teams either.

[venis2k1]

If they arent a good franchise, what does that make us?

not "one of the best teams in the NFL"

to be dubbed that, i think its fair that you win your division at least once this decade. Something neither of these teams were able to do.

[billogic99]

If Ralph would stop acting like it's us we would even be talking about the Bills moving.

He's half the problem.

The Bills have the attendence they do because of the ticket prices. If the Bills started selling tickets at the same price as everyone else, the Ralph would be a lot less appealing to the fan base. It's one thing to love the sport and team, it's a whole different story when you're paying premium prices to watch you're favorite team lose on a regular basis. I disagree with a lot of what Ralph does, but he is selling tickets cheap.

[BertSquirtgum]

Lets not be kind to them, they are the team that ended Jim Kelly's career.
what exactly did you mean by that?

[PromoTheRobot]

The Bills have the attendence they do because of the ticket prices. If the Bills started selling tickets at the same price as everyone else, the Ralph would be a lot less appealing to the fan base. It's one thing to love the sport and team, it's a whole different story when you're paying premium prices to watch you're favorite team lose on a regular basis. I disagree with a lot of what Ralph does, but he is selling tickets cheap.
Jax tickets are even cheaper and they can't sell them. And the weather is much better. What does that tell you?

PTR

[billogic99]

Jax tickets are even cheaper and they can't sell them. And the weather is much better. What does that tell you?

PTR

It tells me theres a lot more to do in Jacksonville than Buffalo besides going to football games. The Jags are an expantion team without much history, it's not like they are the Cowboys or Steelers. I think when you're a vacation destination it's tougher to fill seats because there are more things to do than watch football. Now for a diehard fan this may seem insane, but there are a lot of fans that go to games that aren't "diehard". Some people do it for socializing or business reasons. Not everyone who attends games will do so no matter what. I'm not making excuses, I'm just looking at the reality of the Jacksonville situation. There are quite a few more disadvantages to having a football franchise near warm sunny beaches, than there is in an area like Buffalo. At least that's how it looks logically to me.

[PromoTheRobot]

It tells me theres a lot more to do in Jacksonville than Buffalo besides going to football games. The Jags are an expantion team without much history, it's not like they are the Cowboys or Steelers. I think when you're a vacation destination it's tougher to fill seats because there are more things to do than watch football. Now for a diehard fan this may seem insane, but there are a lot of fans that go to games that aren't "diehard". Some people do it for socializing or business reasons. Not everyone who attends games will do so no matter what. I'm not making excuses, I'm just looking at the reality of the Jacksonville situation. There are quite a few more disadvantages to having a football franchise near warm sunny beaches, than there is in an area like Buffalo. At least that's how it looks logically to me.

Other than the weather being nicer there isn't that much to do in Jax. There's no ther pro teams. No college teams for that matter. In fact Jax is considered to be the worst of the FL coastal towns. Name one thing Jax has that Buffalo doesn't that isn't weather related?

PTR

[venis2k1]

Name one thing Jax has that Buffalo doesn't that isn't weather related?

PTR

A football team that plays 8 home games.

[BuffaloRanger]

I think cheap ticket prices hurt the Bills image actually. It makes it appear that the the only way the Bills can sell out games is by offering really cheap tickets. Are you telling me that if tickets were $10 more expensive a game the stadium would be empty? Hardly. Try getting a scalped ticket to a big game at the Ralph and you'll be paying twice the ticket price. I know there are some dog games that may not be so appealing, but most games are big games.

Ralph has got this image that everybody in the Buffalo area is scrapping by making 25 grand a year. People have money and a priority for many of us is going to big events - like Bills games. The whole day is a party, why not go?

[venis2k1]

I agree Ranger. Why won't that cheap old man raise ticket prices already!!!!!

[MassEffect218435]

I think cheap ticket prices hurt the Bills image actually. It makes it appear that the the only way the Bills can sell out games is by offering really cheap tickets. Are you telling me that if tickets were $10 more expensive a game the stadium would be empty? Hardly. Try getting a scalped ticket to a big game at the Ralph and you'll be paying twice the ticket price. I know there are some dog games that may not be so appealing, but most games are big games.

Ralph has got this image that everybody in the Buffalo area is scrapping by making 25 grand a year. People have money and a priority for many of us is going to big events - like Bills games. The whole day is a party, why not go?Very good and accurate post.

[PromoTheRobot]

I think cheap ticket prices hurt the Bills image actually. It makes it appear that the the only way the Bills can sell out games is by offering really cheap tickets. Are you telling me that if tickets were $10 more expensive a game the stadium would be empty? Hardly. Try getting a scalped ticket to a big game at the Ralph and you'll be paying twice the ticket price. I know there are some dog games that may not be so appealing, but most games are big games.

Ralph has got this image that everybody in the Buffalo area is scrapping by making 25 grand a year. People have money and a priority for many of us is going to big events - like Bills games. The whole day is a party, why not go?
Off the mark completely. I live in New England an no one knows what Bills tickets cost. They assume it's similar to what Pats* fans pay. And the ones that do know because they travel to Buffalo think it's great.

What Ralph is talking about is not people not affording tickets, it's business not affording expensive suites and luxury seating. That's revenue that's not shared, unlike ticket revenues. That's where Buffalo is lagging. We can sell out every game at double the current tickets prices. It still wouldn't add up to what the Pats*, Cowboys, and Redskins make on luxury suites alone.

PTR

[thenry20]

Sounds like the Florida Marlins to me.

[Michael82]

I think cheap ticket prices hurt the Bills image actually. It makes it appear that the the only way the Bills can sell out games is by offering really cheap tickets. Are you telling me that if tickets were $10 more expensive a game the stadium would be empty? Hardly. Try getting a scalped ticket to a big game at the Ralph and you'll be paying twice the ticket price. I know there are some dog games that may not be so appealing, but most games are big games.

Ralph has got this image that everybody in the Buffalo area is scrapping by making 25 grand a year. People have money and a priority for many of us is going to big events - like Bills games. The whole day is a party, why not go?
Great post! I will still say that they could raise the tickets $15-20 per game and the stadium would still sell out if the Bills are winning.

[billogic99]

Other than the weather being nicer there isn't that much to do in Jax. There's no ther pro teams. No college teams for that matter. In fact Jax is considered to be the worst of the FL coastal towns. Name one thing Jax has that Buffalo doesn't that isn't weather related?

PTR

Easy, if you could go on vacation, would you rather go to Buffalo or Jacksonville? Think of the question as the everyday Joe. Jacksonville is like most Florida communities, it's not only attractive to people looking to go someplace warm, but to retire. You have to consider who lives there, who visits and why. Not to mention Disney world is only about 2 hrs away.

Here's a list of things to do in Jacksonville,

http://travel.yahoo.com/p-travelguide-2840612-jacksonville_things_to_do-i;_ylt=Ak8.D6ndG.ohYIoibOyEaEOsP2oL

[MassEffect218435]

Off the mark completely. I live in New England an no one knows what Bills tickets cost. They assume it's similar to what Pats* fans pay. And the ones that do know because they travel to Buffalo think it's great.

What Ralph is talking about is not people not affording tickets, it's business not affording expensive suites and luxury seating. That's revenue that's not shared, unlike ticket revenues. That's where Buffalo is lagging. We can sell out every game at double the current tickets prices. It still wouldn't add up to what the Pats*, Cowboys, and Redskins make on luxury suites alone.

PTRI don't live in Buffalo or New England and everyone around here knows that the Bills have some of the lowest prices in all of sports.

[Turbo.GUN.Hawk!]

The sad thing about Jacksonville is they have been one of the best teams in the NFL.
Are you kidding me? One of the best teams in the NFL? Haha.

[Bill Brasky]

If Ralph would stop acting like it's us we would even be talking about the Bills moving.

He's half the problem.
the city of buffalo and its citizens' "woe is me" attitude accounts for the other half.

[MassEffect218435]

Jaguars:

Operating Income: $27.6 million
Gate Receipts: $42 million


The skinny
Although he has publicly denied it, reports continue to mount that Wayne Weaver is looking to sell the Jaguars. The Jags will likely fetch less than market value because Weaver is dealing from weakness. The team plays in one of the NFL's smallest markets and has a poor stadium deal, which means they would suffer if there is no salary cap in 2010. Part of the problem has been Weaver, who has tarnished his team's brand by feuding with the locals over stadium money. Investment bankers say Weaver may unload a significant minority stake that would value the Jags under $800 million.
Buffalo Bills:

Operating Income: $12.4 million
Gate Receipts: $40 million


The skinny
Buffalo Bills owner Ralph Wilson, 90, has been crying poverty for years and has stated that the team will be sold after he dies. For years the Bills made a lot of money thanks to their rabid fans. But over the past few seasons the team's small market and antiquated stadium have placed the Bills in the bottom third of revenue of the NFL. In a somewhat bizarre move, Wilson signed a deal for the Bills to play eight games in Toronto over five years, beginning this season. Demand for the pricey tickets has been strong and the Bills will make more money than had the games been played in Ralph Wilson Stadium. Rather than risk alienating his core fans for a short-term profit, Wilson should have sold the naming rights to the stadium named after him. But when you're 90 years old and have no plans of selling the team, you probably don't give a damn.

The team's fortunes are growing at a slower pace than the rest of the league. Playing in outdated Ralph Wilson Stadium, the Bills are already hosting a handful of home games across Lake Ontario in Toronto. The spiffier Rogers Centre brings in more revenue; if Toronto comes dangling more goodies to lure the Bills full-time, Buffalo will have a hard time trying to win a money war.

That's the problem with the Bills, they just aren't very profitable. Unless I'm mistaken, the only team with a lesser operating income is the 49ers.

[Bill Brasky]

Jaguars:

Operating Income: $27.6 million

Buffalo Bills:

Operating Income: $12.4 million

That's the problem with the Bills, they just aren't very profitable. Unless I'm mistaken, the only team with a lesser operating income is the 49ers.

source?

of course they're not "as profitable". they aren't in a market with the economic fortitude to sustain $100+ tickets or 300k psl's, a market all the other owners have created thanks to their spending at will the past 15 years.

[Bill Brasky]

In a somewhat bizarre move, Wilson signed a deal for the Bills to play eight games in Toronto over five years, beginning this season. Demand for the pricey tickets has been strong and the Bills will make more money than had the games been played in Ralph Wilson Stadium. Rather than risk alienating his core fans for a short-term profit

1st bold point - :rofl:
2nd bold point - he already has by doing so

your source was highly misinformed pal.

[MassEffect218435]

source?

of course they're not "as profitable". they aren't in a market with the economic fortitude to sustain $100+ tickets or 300k psl's, a market all the other owners have created thanks to their spending at will the past 15 years.Forbes....

I haven't seen any team with $300k PSL's yet, other than luxury boxes. BTW, the Jaguars are in a weak market as well, but have managed to make over twice the operating income.

[MassEffect218435]

In a somewhat bizarre move, Wilson signed a deal for the Bills to play eight games in Toronto over five years, beginning this season. Demand for the pricey tickets has been strong and the Bills will make more money than had the games been played in Ralph Wilson Stadium. Rather than risk alienating his core fans for a short-term profit

1st bold point - :rofl:
2nd bold point - he already has by doing so

your source was highly misinformed pal.Unless I'm mistaken the game in Toronto last year was a sellout was it not?

[Bill Brasky]

Forbes....

I haven't seen any team with $300k PSL's yet, other than luxury boxes.

dallas is doing 150k for psl's. originally it was to be more. if you have 2 tickets you are paying upwards of 300k - basing that on the idea that many people have 2 tickets in their name.


Unless I'm mistaken the game in Toronto last year was a sellout was it not?

i don't know what you heard, but people were giving tickets away up until kickoff. the stadium was at least 25% empty, and those that showed up - half were probably casual fans or not a bills fan at all. but hey, if they make a couple more bucks and screw me out of a miami home game in december i'm all for it. at least they didn't take a divisional night game from us this year :rolleyes:

[MassEffect218435]

dallas is doing 150k for psl's. originally it was to be more. if you have 2 tickets you are paying upwards of 300k - basing that on the idea that many people have 2 tickets in their name.



i don't know what you heard, but people were giving tickets away up until kickoff. the stadium was at least 25% empty, and those that showed up - half were probably casual fans or not a bills fan at all. but hey, if they make a couple more bucks and screw me out of a miami home game in december i'm all for it. at least they didn't take a divisional night game from us this year :rolleyes:Sorry, but you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about....

http://www.dallascowboys.com/tickets/newstadiumReservedInteractiveMap.cfm

Even on the 50 on the bottom level they are nowhere near $300k. The $150k seats account for about 200 of the more than 100,000 seats in the stadium. The Cowboys are also allowing people to finance the PSL's over the 30 year contract. I don't know where some of you get this stuff.

http://www.dallascowboys.com/tickets/newstadiumClubInteractiveMap.cfm

[El Guapo]

Unless I'm mistaken the game in Toronto last year was a sellout was it not?

Yeah, Miami fans bought up the remaining tickets when the 'Fins got hot last year.

[MassEffect218435]

Yeah, Miami fans bought up the remaining tickets when the 'Fins got hot last year.Is there any word on exactly how much was made in the game in Toronto last year?

[Bill Brasky]

Forbes....

I haven't seen any team with $300k PSL's yet, other than luxury boxes.

dallas is doing upwards of 150k for psl's. originally it was to be more. if you have 2 tickets you are paying upwards of 300k - basing that on the idea that many people have 2 tickets in their name.


Unless I'm mistaken the game in Toronto last year was a sellout was it not?

i don't know what you heard, but demand was so "high" people were giving tickets away up until kickoff. the stadium was at least 25% empty, and those that showed up - half were probably casual fans or not a bills fan at all. but hey, if they make a couple more bucks and screw me out of a miami home game in december i'm all for it. at least they didn't take a divisional night game from us this year :rolleyes:

[PromoTheRobot]

Is there any word on exactly how much was made in the game in Toronto last year?

About $7M, versus the $3M they make per game at RWS. Hard to pass that up.

PTR

[PromoTheRobot]

Unless I'm mistaken the game in Toronto last year was a sellout was it not?

YOu are indeed mistaken. The game was not a sellout. In fact there were stories in the Toronto papers that Rogers people were literally handing out free tickets on the street on game day.

PTR

[MassEffect218435]

About $7M, versus the $3M they make per game at RWS. Hard to pass that up.

PTRSo even if the game isn't a sellout it's bringing in more than twice the amount than if it was a sellout played in OP? It sucks that great fans are having to put up with the possibility of losing their team, but from a business standpoint you can't pass something like that up.

[Bill Brasky]

Even on the 50 on the bottom level they are nowhere near $300k. The $150k seats account for about 200 of the more than 100,000 seats in the stadium. The Cowboys are also allowing people to finance the PSL's over the 30 year contract. I don't know where some of you get this stuff.

wait. so am i right or wrong? cuz according to you i'm both. and though i gave you a paragraph surmising how i arrived at 300k you apparently neglected to read it. it's all good.

and the financing is a great idea. it only got our country to the current state it's in.

"can't afford it? have someone else front it and worry about it later"

i don't know what's dumber. paying $45 a ticket to sit at the ralph to watch a 7-9 team not win a playoff game in 9 years, or financing 100k+ to watch the cowboys not win a playoff game in nearly the same amount of time. tell me again who the true idiots are?

[MassEffect218435]

wait. so am i right or wrong? cuz according to you i'm both. and though i gave you a paragraph surmising how i arrived at 300k you apparently neglected to read it. it's all good.

and the financing is a great idea. it only got our country to the current state it's in.

"can't afford it? have someone else front it and worry about it later"

i don't know what's dumber. paying $45 a ticket to sit at the ralph to watch a 7-9 team not win a playoff game in 9 years, or financing 100k+ to watch the cowboys not win a playoff game in nearly the same amount of time. tell me again who the true idiots are?You either don't read very well, or you're trying really hard to come off as a complicated person. Less than 200 seats in Cowboys Stadium have a PSL of $150,000; if you can't comprehend that 200 out of 100,000 isn't that grand of a number then I can't help you.

93,000 of the 100,000 have PSL's that are $10,000 or less per seat. Perhaps you should look into the number of teams that are going the PSL route with their new stadiums, maybe the Bills are just behind on the times? The PSL is the only way a lot of franchises can afford to build these grand stadiums, if the fans want a new stadium it is simply the price you pay for a state-of-the-art facility. If Buffalo decided to build a new stadium they'd have to go the PSL route too.

All of the below teams are now using the PSL system:
Tennessee Titans PSL (http://www.stadiumpsl.com/tennessee-titans-psl-s-for-sale/2.html)
(http://www.stadiumpsl.com/st.-louis-rams-psl-s-for-sale/2.html)Carolina Panthers (http://www.stadiumpsl.com/carolina-panthers-psl-s-for-sale/2.html) PSL (http://www.stadiumpsl.com/carolina-panthers-psl-s-for-sale/2.html)
Cincinnati Bengals COA PSL (http://www.stadiumpsl.com/cincinnati-bengals-psl-s-for-sale/2.html)
Seattle Seahawks CSL PSL (http://www.stadiumpsl.com/seattle-seahawks-psl-s-for-sale/3.html)
St. Louis Rams PSL
(http://www.stadiumpsl.com/st.-louis-rams-psl-s-for-sale/2.html)Pittsburgh Steelers PSL (http://www.stadiumpsl.com/pittsburgh-steelers-psl-s-for-sale/3.html)
Philadelphia Eagles SBL (http://www.stadiumpsl.com/philadelphia-eagles-psl-s-sbl-s-for-sale/12.html)
Houston Texans PSL (http://www.stadiumpsl.com/houston-texans-psl-s-for-sale/11.html)
Cleveland Browns PSL (http://www.stadiumpsl.com/cleveland-browns-psl-s-for-sale/2.html)
Baltimore Ravens PSL (http://www.stadiumpsl.com/baltimore-ravens-psl-s-for-sale/7.html)
Chicago Bears PSL (http://www.stadiumpsl.com/chicago-bears-psl-s-for-sale/13.html)
Dallas Cowboys PSL (http://www.stadiumpsl.com/dallas-cowboys-psl-s-for-sale/12.html)
New York Giants PSL (http://www.stadiumpsl.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=category&sectionid=9&id=106&Itemid=101)
New York Jets PSL (http://www.stadiumpsl.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=category&sectionid=9&id=107&Itemid=101)