Reports: Maybin "Brutal" in OTAs

[BILLSROCK1212]

MAYBIN LOOKING ROUGH SO FAR IN OTAS
Posted by Mike Florio on May 23, 2009, 11:19 p.m.
The eleventh overall pick in the 2009 draft hopes has some similarities to the eleventh overall pick from seven years ago.

Both men, Aaron Maybin and Dwight Freeney, entered the league as guys who were viewed as potentially strong contributors to the pass rush, but possible liabilities in the running game.

For Freeney, things have worked out, as that six-year, $72 million contract confirms. For Maybin, who’s listed three inches taller but nearly 20 pounds lighter, there’s a long way to go.

And it could be that Maybin has a really long way to go, based on his performance in the team’s opening round of Organized Team Activities.

“Brutal” is the adjective that’s making the rounds. Per the team’s official web site, Maybin was sprinkled in with the first team on Wednesday. At one point on Tuesday, he got into a skirmish with tackle Chris Denman.

So at a time when quality performances are being attributed to the fact that everyone looks good when practicing in T-shirts and shorts, it remains to be seen whether Maybin will become an underwear all-star.

http://www.profootballtalk.com/category/rumor-mill/

I hope this isn't a sign of things to come...

[MassEffect218435]

Seems a little premature to be making these types of statements, how about waiting at least until training camp before throwing stuff like this out there? There is only so much you can tell about a guy who is in shorts and a t-shirt.

[TigerJ]

How does one react to something like this? you can't know if Maybin's performance was actually characterized by someone in the organization as "brutal" because no one would ever own up to a comment like that. So it could be an insider's genuine observation, or it could be just so much unfounded drivel, like a lot of stuff Florio reports. Suppose it is an insider's actual comment. Does that really have value as a predicter of things to come for Maybin's career? Hardly! He could be a bust, or he could be a star, or he could be somewhere in between, but what he does in a 3 day OTA will have little bearing on what he will become. OTAs for rookies are about learning what's expected of them in terms of techniques, stunts, etc. Where do I line up when such and such a call is made? How can I keep the OT from getting his hands on my jersey? How do I keep containment if there's a chance this turns out to be a running play, yet still get some pressure if it's not? If he was brutal, it has nothing to do with physical talent because they aren't running anything at more than half or 3/4 speed anyway. It's about starting to get a handle on things mentally. It would be nice if he came in and discovered everything he is being asked to do is exactly like he did it in college, but that's not going to happen. College is a different game, a much simpler game. Moreover, Maybin was a red shirt sophomore last season. He hadn't learned all he could have learned in college. In interviews he comes across as intelligent. He seems instinctive in his play, as well as having off the chart quickness in the pass rush. I wouldn't worry too much just yet.

[rcd333]

brutal sounded like a good thing when i first looked at the thread

[The Spaz]

So he gets in a skirmish with Denman and he's "brutal". I'll take this seriously when they get the pads. :yawn:

[OpIv37]

I don't know how credible this guy is, but if this report is even remotely accurate, it's very discouraging.

Maybin was the only "upgrade" to a lackluster pass rush in a defensive system that depends on the pass rush.

This is going to be a brutal season.

[OpIv37]

I don't know how credible this guy is, but if this report is even remotely accurate, it's very discouraging.

Maybin was the only "upgrade" to a lackluster pass rush in a defensive system that depends on the pass rush.

This is going to be a brutal season.

[Ebenezer]

I'll be ready to discuss Maybin's performance.....in mid September...maybe later.

[OpIv37]

I'll be ready to discuss Maybin's performance.....in mid September...maybe later.

yeah yeah yeah..... I hear this every year.

"It's just OTA's- wait til training camp"
"It's just training camp- wait til preseason"
"It's just preseason-wait til the regular season"
"It's just the regular season.... oh ****"

I'm sure he'll magically go from "brutal" to NFL-caliber DE in 4 months. Happens all the time. :rolleyes:

[Ebenezer]

yeah yeah yeah..... I hear this every year.

"It's just OTA's- wait til training camp"
"It's just training camp- wait til preseason"
"It's just preseason-wait til the regular season"
"It's just the regular season.... oh ****"

I'm sure he'll magically go from "brutal" to NFL-caliber DE in 4 months. Happens all the time. :rolleyes:
why don't you go back and read what I said the day he was drafted...

[Crisis]

shut up op...if the report was maybin looked great you'd say it means nothing

either way it means nothing

[casdhf]

Maybin was labeled as explosive and raw, right ... so this shouldn't be a suprise to anyone. He'll get there, it just takes time.

[Jan Reimers]

It's May, folks, relax.

[The Spaz]

Hey the GQ QB for the Jets is apparently sucking...

[SquishDaFish]

Jesus OP its way to early to tell how anyone is going to be.

[Jan Reimers]

Jesus OP its way to early to tell how anyone is going to be.
Nah, we know from 3 days of rookie camp and 5 OTA sessions that the FO screwed up and Maybin is a bust. We have remarkable talent evaluation skills on here.

[Jan Reimers]

Oh, and I'd rather Maybin be an on-the-field - vesus an underwear - all star.

[PromoTheRobot]

I don't know how credible this guy is, but if this report is even remotely accurate, it's very discouraging.

A dream come true for you. Right Opi?

PTR

[PromoTheRobot]

yeah yeah yeah..... I hear this every year.

"It's just OTA's- wait til training camp"
"It's just training camp- wait til preseason"
"It's just preseason-wait til the regular season"
"It's just the regular season.... oh ****"

I'm sure he'll magically go from "brutal" to NFL-caliber DE in 4 months. Happens all the time. :rolleyes:

Do a little research into Bruce Smith. He was a unmotivated tub of dung when he started with the Bills. I guess a bust is a bust.

PTR

[SABURZFAN]

that's why they have OTA. you don't expect a rookie to come in and look like a 10 year vet coming off of a Pro Bowl year. i hope he's looking good come August.

[Yasgur's Farm]

Sad thing about the words of hack writers like this chooch... They tend to stick with people who are fond of sayings like "I've heard...". Be prepared to hear the word "brutal" over and over again in September.

Just look how long "dropsies" has been associated with Josh Reed... He's actually been extremely sure handed in his career with the exception of 1 injury riddled season.

[elltrain22]

I'll be ready to discuss Maybin's performance.....in mid September...maybe later.

Thats more like it!!

[ChristopherWalken]

Im not sure who this guys so called source is, but coaches do this type of thing with rookies. For all of you that have played fotball, you know what I mean. They find ways to break you down in order to build you back up again...but in their own way. Im not saying that this or isn't the case here but one can never be sure. What we do know is what al the scouting reports have on this kid and they all seem to relativey hover around the same theory. He has a tremendous amont of speed but lacks some specifics in technique. Well, this kid was a super star in college that relyed more on his God given talents and less on technique...he will need to start focusing more on techniques if he plans on staying pro awhile longer. Break 'em down coach.

[The Juice Is Loose]

I don't know how credible this guy is, but if this report is even remotely accurate, it's very discouraging.

Maybin was the only "upgrade" to a lackluster pass rush in a defensive system that depends on the pass rush.

This is going to be a brutal season.

PFT/Mike Florio is kind of a two type web page. As far as free agency, trades, pure facts, etc...they can't be beat. They provide more info than any other site.

However, when things get slow Florio starts posting opinions and speculation, with no real facts to back it up. So you have to take anything that's "opinion" or word on the street type stuff with a grain of salt.

If every rookie was awesome their first week they wouldn't be called rookies.

[The Juice Is Loose]

we all know that maybin isn't giong to be an every down end, at least not this year.

[billogic99]

Seems a little premature to be making these types of statements, how about waiting at least until training camp before throwing stuff like this out there? There is only so much you can tell about a guy who is in shorts and a t-shirt.

I agree, however if the word out of the OTA's were just the opposite, fans would be acting like Maybins the next LT. It's just the way it works, no matter who's team fans you're talking about.

I didn't like this pick, but I'll be patient and wait till it matters before I judge what he does. Maybe he's one of those guy's who suck in practice, but lights it up on gameday, who knows.

[HHURRICANE]

The only comment I'm going to make about Maybin is he looks very, very, thin out there.

A guy that has to throw on 30 pounds to get drafted scares the crap out of me. The physics of the game naturally work against him.

The guy that looked brutal to me is Levitre.

[ddaryl]

remember this one fact... Maybin was only a sophmore last year... So theoretically he is 1 - 2 years behind all the rest of the players who developed themselves for the NFL out of college...

everyone knew Maybin was a project... which is why many of us were not on the Maybin @ #11 train...

but I am on the Maybin train now so lets hope this is just another slow NFL news speculation report with litte substance.

I also agree with everyone who says wait till preseason... That the only way to truly begin to judge what players are capable of from a fans stand point IMHO.

[Nighthawk]

Honestly, how can anybody know if he looks "brutal" when they're not even practicing for real yet??? Talk to me during training camp...if then he looks "brutal" then I start worrying...a little.

[WeAreArthurMoates]

This is the same guy who said that we could get Vick. This guy has no inside info on the Bills.

[Dr. Lecter]

The only comment I'm going to make about Maybin is he looks very, very, thin out there.

A guy that has to throw on 30 pounds to get drafted scares the crap out of me. The physics of the game naturally work against him.

The guy that looked brutal to me is Levitre.

What makes you say that about Levitre? When did he look brutal? Did you see the OTAs?

And when did Maybe add 30 pounds? It was around 20, not 30 (although it still concerns me).

[Dr. Lecter]

yeah yeah yeah..... I hear this every year.

"It's just OTA's- wait til training camp"
"It's just training camp- wait til preseason"
"It's just preseason-wait til the regular season"
"It's just the regular season.... oh ****"

I'm sure he'll magically go from "brutal" to NFL-caliber DE in 4 months. Happens all the time. :rolleyes:

So if he is not an All-Star in May, let's cut him!!!!!

(That is as close to what you said as your post was to Eb's).

[trapezeus]

brutal can mean something different for a guy drafted #11 vs a regular player. perhaps the coaches were sad at the length he has to go to get better.

if that's the word on maybin, let's hope he is dedicated to getting better and not john mccargo.

[HHURRICANE]

What makes you say that about Levitre? When did he look brutal? Did you see the OTAs?

And when did Maybe add 30 pounds? It was around 20, not 30 (although it still concerns me).


There have been 3 days of OTAs so everything is based on very little.

I was just saying that I would be more concerned with Levitre who has to start vs. Maybin who can rotate in.

As far as the weight I thought it was 225 to 250? I rounded up to 30 pounds.

[FlyingDutchman]

ill bet anything that the people making comments about being concerened already have never played an organized sport, and definately have not played above high school level.

I played a division 1 sport. When i was in high school i was a man among boys. When my first practices and team sessions started as a freshman in college, I was a lost little boy who was just getting abused on the field regularly. It takes time and practice to get yourself up to the next level where everyone on the field is damn good. I ended up seeing a little playing time in the biginning of the season as a frosh, and by the end of the year was starting. Not only are the physical demands so much greater when going up to a higher level, but one must be mentally tough. Your confidence gets shook and you start second guessing your abilities. Before you realize it, youre on their level and playing your game like you know how to. Being concerened about ANY rookie at this point in their career is so ******ed its ridiculous.

[OpIv37]

Jesus OP its way to early to tell how anyone is going to be.

Go back and read my previous post. That's what people say EVERY May and EVERY September we still suck.

[FlyingDutchman]

Go back and read my previous post. That's what people say EVERY May and EVERY September we still suck.

remember when people were calling mckelvin a bust?....that was going on into October....whatever happend to those people?

[OpIv37]

remember when people were calling mckelvin a bust?....that was going on into October....whatever happend to those people?

Problem is that October is 6 or 7 games into the season. If Maybin even takes that long to come into his own, this team is going to be in a HUGE hole. We need immediate help at DE and while I think Maybin could be good down the road, he's not going to bring that immediate assistance.

[HHURRICANE]

remember when people were calling mckelvin a bust?....that was going on into October....whatever happend to those people?

Op hit it right on the head. There are some of us that would like to win now. You were 5 when Kelly started winning games for us so your window is different than ours.

I lived through Kay Steveson and Hank Bullough and the massive domination by Miami in the 70s. The FO looks alot better when you are growing up with a winner vs. those of us that have seen more crappy years than good ones.

[FlyingDutchman]

well we knew this was gonna be the case didnt we? i thought we all knew maybin wasnt going to be an immediate impact. What rookies outside of top 5 picks come in and are immediate? I agree it sucks and im losing patience as well, but why is this news to anyone?

[Night Train]

It's freakin' May walkthrough's and they don't even have the pads on. :rofl:

[Novacane]

So you're mad because you're expecting an immediate impact from Maybin? That was not very likely in the first place.

[TigerJ]

Op hit it right on the head. There are some of us that would like to win now. You were 5 when Kelly started winning games for us so your window is different than ours.

I lived through Kay Steveson and Hank Bullough and the massive domination by Miami in the 70s. The FO looks alot better when you are growing up with a winner vs. those of us that have seen more crappy years than good ones.

I was 35 when Jim Kelly started winning games for us. I not only remember Kay Stevenson and Hank Bullough, I remember Jim Ringo, Harvey Johnson, and my favorite, John "Let's use OJ Simpson as a decoy" Rauch. I would very much like to win now, but I still want to be rational in my reaction to what goes on at OBD.

[psubills62]

Op, I don't necessarily agree that Maybin was the only attempt to upgrade our pass rush. In terms of on-the-field personnel, yes it was. But I believe that Bob Sanders was also brought in to try and help the guys on our DL become better at rushing the passer.

As far as this report, is it frustrating, scary, exasperating, etc? Of course it is, within the limited context of OTA's (as would be a report about any particular player being great).

Like a lot of other people said...he came into the league raw. Before the draft I was personally convinced that the Bills wouldn't take him because he really couldn't help them that much this year. I think he may help this year some, if only because they give him an extended opportunity throughout the season.

While this report elicits some negative emotions, like every other person has said - it's just OTA's. Anything reported this time of year always comes with that caveat.

[Goobylal]

I wonder how the other rookie DE's who the Bills had a shot at (namely Orakpo) have been looking? Non "brutal?"

[Mitchell55]

I don't know how credible this guy is, but if this report is even remotely accurate, it's very discouraging.

Maybin was the only "upgrade" to a lackluster pass rush in a defensive system that depends on the pass rush.

This is going to be a brutal season.



Im being perfectly honest but this sequence of posts have been the worst ive ever seen you write. 1st off this guy is the guy who says that buffalo is interested in vick, 2nd off, how do you judge any play in OTAs. Right now as far as weve seen, Trent has sucked. We have to remember, its maybins 1st few practices in the NFL, he hasnt done much football related stuff in a long time, and lastly again about the writer, he uses brutal in just about every post.

[HHURRICANE]

Im being perfectly honest but this sequence of posts have been the worst ive ever seen you write. 1st off this guy is the guy who says that buffalo is interested in vick, 2nd off, how do you judge any play in OTAs. Right now as far as weve seen, Trent has sucked. We have to remember, its maybins 1st few practices in the NFL, he hasnt done much football related stuff in a long time, and lastly again about the writer, he uses brutal in just about every post.


Mitchell there is no "benefit of the doubt" with this team.

Why is that everyone has to assume we are good until proven otherwise?

This team has proven nothing other than being a major disappointment year in and year out.

We started 5-1 and finished 7-9. I believe we are the only team to ever do that.

So don't even try and justify your counter.

Maybin needs to be great along Levitre, Wood, Hangartner, and TO just to have a shot at a 9 wins. So patience for players to develop is for the losers. Even the owner say this a must win season!!

[BillsWin]

Florio is an idiot.

[Mitchell55]

Mitchell there is no "benefit of the doubt" with this team.

Why is that everyone has to assume we are good until proven otherwise?

This team has proven nothing other than being a major disappointment year in and year out.

We started 5-1 and finished 7-9. I believe we are the only team to ever do that.

So don't even try and justify your counter.

Maybin needs to be great along Levitre, Wood, Hangartner, and TO just to have a shot at a 9 wins. So patience for players to develop is for the losers. Even the owner say this a must win season!!





I think you quoted the wrong person because this is just stupid if you are quoting what I said.

[Ginger Vitis]

How did McLovin look in OTAs last year? Wasn't he supposedly "brutal" as well?

[FlyingDutchman]

Mitchell there is no "benefit of the doubt" with this team.

Why is that everyone has to assume we are good until proven otherwise?

This team has proven nothing other than being a major disappointment year in and year out.

We started 5-1 and finished 7-9. I believe we are the only team to ever do that.

So don't even try and justify your counter.

Maybin needs to be great along Levitre, Wood, Hangartner, and TO just to have a shot at a 9 wins. So patience for players to develop is for the losers. Even the owner say this a must win season!!

well theyre still rookies and they might not be great right away. its the reality of the situation. you can moan all you want but we're not winning the super bowl this year. its reality and we've accepted it. only thing we can do is hope theyre good this year and show a tremendous amount of potential so that we may make it over the top in the next couple of years. i know..i know, this is how it is every year etc etc...we need to win now etc etc...we are what we are. hope for the best.

[guy]

MAYBIN LOOKING ROUGH SO FAR IN OTAS
Posted by Mike Florio on May 23, 2009, 11:19 p.m.
The eleventh overall pick in the 2009 draft hopes has some similarities to the eleventh overall pick from seven years ago.

Both men, Aaron Maybin and Dwight Freeney, entered the league as guys who were viewed as potentially strong contributors to the pass rush, but possible liabilities in the running game.

For Freeney, things have worked out, as that six-year, $72 million contract confirms. For Maybin, who’s listed three inches taller but nearly 20 pounds lighter, there’s a long way to go.

And it could be that Maybin has a really long way to go, based on his performance in the team’s opening round of Organized Team Activities.

“Brutal” is the adjective that’s making the rounds. Per the team’s official web site, Maybin was sprinkled in with the first team on Wednesday. At one point on Tuesday, he got into a skirmish with tackle Chris Denman.

So at a time when quality performances are being attributed to the fact that everyone looks good when practicing in T-shirts and shorts, it remains to be seen whether Maybin will become an underwear all-star.

http://www.profootballtalk.com/category/rumor-mill/

I hope this isn't a sign of things to come... Another stupid ass post

[Mahdi]

Nah, we know from 3 days of rookie camp and 5 OTA sessions that the FO screwed up and Maybin is a bust. We have remarkable talent evaluation skills on here.
Just cut him now...

[HHURRICANE]

well theyre still rookies and they might not be great right away. its the reality of the situation. you can moan all you want but we're not winning the super bowl this year. its reality and we've accepted it. only thing we can do is hope theyre good this year and show a tremendous amount of potential so that we may make it over the top in the next couple of years. i know..i know, this is how it is every year etc etc...we need to win now etc etc...we are what we are. hope for the best.

Let me ask you one question. When Ralph and Marv sat their 4 years ago promising us a winner why am I supposed to accept less now?

If I ran my business like these losers run the Bills I would be broke.

You get on me for not being a fan but accept them scewing the fans over and over again.

I love the Bills but they are making it harder and harder for me to dedicate time to a product that will never improve.

I gladly watched this team try to rebuild and it was obvious that we need our talent to develop, etc. but when you let players like Peters leave it tells me that it's not about winning.

I watch the Bills in a Sports Bar down here where there are plenty of other games to watch at the same time. If they suck I might be watching someone else.

[Dr. Lecter]

There have been 3 days of OTAs so everything is based on very little.

I was just saying that I would be more concerned with Levitre who has to start vs. Maybin who can rotate in.

As far as the weight I thought it was 225 to 250? I rounded up to 30 pounds.

It was closer to 230 up to 250. Regardless, rounding up 20% is significant.

And you said Levitre looked brutal to you. It was not very clear. That does not sound like concern, rather that you saw him look brutal.

And a serious question for you and Op - if the reports were that Maybin looked great, what would your reaction be? Would it mean anything?

[FlyingDutchman]

Let me ask you one question. When Ralph and Marv sat their 4 years ago promising us a winner why am I supposed to accept less now?

If I ran my business like these losers run the Bills I would be broke.

You get on me for not being a fan but accept them scewing the fans over and over again.

I love the Bills but they are making it harder and harder for me to dedicate time to a product that will never improve.

I gladly watched this team try to rebuild and it was obvious that we need our talent to develop, etc. but when you let players like Peters leave it tells me that it's not about winning.

I watch the Bills in a Sports Bar down here where there are plenty of other games to watch at the same time. If they suck I might be watching someone else.

i dont remember hearing "promises". I believe those guys are smarter than to promise anything. How are they screwing you and I over? They try to build winners, maybe they just suck at it. Do you expect Ralph to just sell the team bc he feels bad for you? Its not going to happen. Im not going into the Peters situation with you, bc I honestly feel the situation has been explained countless times to you, and youre stuck in your ways. 99% of us see the bigger picture about Peters and understand the move. As far as the original subject about the rookies. Why does every conversation about buffalo, turn into the FO screws us? Now youre placing ridiculous pressure on rookies who've had nothing to do with the past, bc you feel that Ralph and the FO always screws us? Its not fair. Look if there was a magic wand to wave to make them amazing out of the gate, trust me someone would be waiving it. But to say if theyre not amazing its just the same old crap every year is ridiculous. Especially at this point in the season. As you said, this is a business. This isnt a monopoly, you have the right to shop elsewhere. There isnt much moaning and placing unfair pressures on players are going to do about it.

[HHURRICANE]

It was closer to 230 up to 250. Regardless, rounding up 20% is significant.

And you said Levitre looked brutal to you. It was not very clear. That does not sound like concern, rather that you saw him look brutal.

And a serious question for you and Op - if the reports were that Maybin looked great, what would your reaction be? Would it mean anything?

227 to 252 is 25 pounds!

http://www.philly.com/inquirer/sports/20090423_Weight_is_an_issue_for_Penn_State_s_Maybin.html

I want every player to look great period!!

Unlike alot of you who already resigned to another loser season I want a playoff birth.

So even though expecting rookies and other players to play at high levels might be unreasonable I'm sick of being dicked by the FO. They get money out of me and my family every for this team so yeah I want a return on my investment.

[FlyingDutchman]

dude you live in atlanta, you play this "they take money from me" card a lot. you act like its a mortgage payment. this is a sport. its for fun. is sitting on your butt drinking beers at a sports bar really an investment?....not to get off topic but cripes you get dramatic over ever little darn thing

[Ebenezer]

They get money out of me and my family


how...and if they do it is because you do it voluntarily. Neither the Bills or the NFL have shown up on my doorstep demanding money.

[Ebenezer]

I want every player to look great period!!

That Coy Wire - he was a handsome man!

[OpIv37]

Im being perfectly honest but this sequence of posts have been the worst ive ever seen you write. 1st off this guy is the guy who says that buffalo is interested in vick, 2nd off, how do you judge any play in OTAs. Right now as far as weve seen, Trent has sucked. We have to remember, its maybins 1st few practices in the NFL, he hasnt done much football related stuff in a long time, and lastly again about the writer, he uses brutal in just about every post.

I said right from the beginning "if this guy is remotely credible." I don't know if he is or isn't. But, that's the topic of this thread so that's the information I'm discussing.

Second, go back and see my second post in this thread.

Everyone always tells me you can't judge players in OTA's- you have to wait until camp.
During camp, everyone always tells me that you can't judge players in camp- you have to wait until preseason.
During preseason, everyone always tells me that you can't judge players in preseason- you have to wait til the regular season.

Then the regular season starts and the guy still fits the description that was made in OTA's.

I understand it was Maybin's first few practices. I'm not trying to label him a bust. But there is a widespread feeling- even amongst people who are generally more positive about this team and more supportive of the FO than I am- that it's going to take Maybin time to become a contributor. And this story is confirming that feeling. So far, it doesn't look like the guy's gonna make an immediate contribution, and that's unfortunate because our pass rush was so "brutal" last year.

[WeAreArthurMoates]

How did McLovin look in OTAs last year? Wasn't he supposedly "brutal" as well?

Yep and that tag followed him into training camp where people that Corner would be the better one.

[yordad]

Bump, for everyone that thinks how a rookie looks in shorts at his first OTA is important.

[OpIv37]

And a serious question for you and Op - if the reports were that Maybin looked great, what would your reaction be? Would it mean anything?

I wouldn't get too excited about it but I'd consider it an encouraging sign.

[OpIv37]

Bump, for everyone that thinks how a rookie looks in shorts at his first OTA is important.

don't worry, I'll bump it again when Maybin looks exactly the same in preseason and the regular season.

[FlyingDutchman]

seriously OP...these guys dont even have pads on and he just made the transition to the professional level. youve never played sports in your life have you.

[OpIv37]

seriously OP...these guys dont even have pads on and he just made the transition to the professional level. youve never played sports in your life have you.

I've played a lot of sports, just never at any real competitive level.

But that doesn't matter.

How many times do I have to say it? We go through this drill EVERY year, and EVERY year the early returns are very close to what actually happens. Sometimes they're dead on.

Funny how everyone brings up McKelvin as an example and no one wants to talk about Hardy....

[scartown]

This whole thead is brutal.

[FlyingDutchman]

I've played a lot of sports, just never at any real competitive level.

But that doesn't matter.

How many times do I have to say it? We go through this drill EVERY year, and EVERY year the early returns are very close to what actually happens. Sometimes they're dead on.

Funny how everyone brings up McKelvin as an example and no one wants to talk about Hardy....

bull crap it doesnt matter. if you dont know what its like at the start of the off season of any competitive sport, you have no clue what youre talking about. Especially when making the biggest transition there is in sports. As I mentioned, i made the transition from high school to division 1 lacrosse. It took me a while to get adjusted. If you saw me play my first week in college you would think i had never played before. the adjustment to that level of competition is unbelievable, and I cant imagine what it must be like to go from college to pro. Donnie, youre out of your element.

[OpIv37]

bull crap it doesnt matter. if you dont know what its like at the start of the off season of any competitive sport, you have no clue what youre talking about. Especially when making the biggest transition there is in sports. As I mentioned, i made the transition from high school to division 1 lacrosse. It took me a while to get adjusted. If you saw me play my first week in college you would think i had never played before. the adjustment to that level of competition is unbelievable, and I cant imagine what it must be like to go from college to pro. Donnie, youre out of your element.

I know what's happened to the players on the Bills in previous years because I've seen it happen. Everyone on this board likes to think that players magically get better from OTA's to training camp to preseason to regular season but they don't.

The funny part is that there's a fundamental flaw in the argument you're making. My problem with the Maybin pick is- and has always been- that he's less likely than Orakpo to contribute immediately. This article lends some credibility to the stance. You're trying to make the case that there's a huge adjustment between college level and pro level, and I certainly don't disagree with that point. But if the adjustment is so huge, what makes you think Maybin is going to be able to step in and be ready to contribute in September?

Hell, you made the transition from HS to college but you never went from college to pro- and you did it in a different sport. So, you haven't had the experience you're trying to describe either.

[Dr. Lecter]

I know what's happened to the players on the Bills in previous years because I've seen it happen. Everyone on this board likes to think that players magically get better from OTA's to training camp to preseason to regular season but they don't.

That's bull and you know it.

McKelvin, is the most glaring example. Hell, even after returning KOs for two games you and others were ready to declare him a bust in that role. Players do improve.


The funny part is that there's a fundamental flaw in the argument you're making. My problem with the Maybin pick is- and has always been- that he's less likely than Orakpo to contribute immediately. This article lends some credibility to the stance. You're trying to make the case that there's a huge adjustment between college level and pro level, and I certainly don't disagree with that point. But if the adjustment is so huge, what makes you think Maybin is going to be able to step in and be ready to contribute in September?

And your flaw is thinking that the Bills or any team should draft for immediate impact and immediate impact only. That is crazy.

And this article lends no credibility to your claim, unless there is an evaluation of Orakpo in it that I missed.

[FlyingDutchman]

But if the adjustment is so huge, what makes you think Maybin is going to be able to step in and be ready to contribute in September?

Hell, you made the transition from HS to college but you never went from college to pro- and you did it in a different sport. So, you haven't had the experience you're trying to describe either.

I dont think hes going to be able to come in, in september and contribute right away. what idiot would think that?

I havent had the experience im trying to describe? does that sentence even make sence? I just described what its like to move from the high school to the division 1 level. i experienced it, and i described it. i said i cant imagine how hard it must be to make the next jump...it obviously doesnt get any easier....wtf are you talking about...?

honestly if youve never played a sport at ANY competitive level, you seriously have zero credibility to comment...just my honest opinion...

[OpIv37]

That's bull and you know it.

McKelvin, is the most glaring example. Hell, even after returning KOs for two games you and others were ready to declare him a bust in that role. Players do improve.



And your flaw is thinking that the Bills or any team should draft for immediate impact and immediate impact only. That is crazy.

And this article lends no credibility to your claim, unless there is an evaluation of Orakpo in it that I missed.

I NEVER said that any team should draft for immediate impact only.

We NEED immediate impact in the pass rush. The FO didn't pursue any DE's in FA (you could make the case that none were available, but that's not really the point of this discussion), so we had to use the draft to do it.

In this specific situation, immediate impact was necessary. As a general drafting strategy, looking for immediate impact isn't very effective, particularly at certain positions. Don't take one situation and attempt to extrapolate it universally.

This article lends credibility to the point of view that Maybin isn't ready to make an immediate impact. The Orakpo issue is related but separate.

[FlyingDutchman]

We went after Jason Taylor OP

[FlyingDutchman]

We NEED immediate impact in the pass rush. The FO didn't pursue any DE's in FA (you could make the case that none were available, but that's not really the point of this discussion)

how do you write something like this and then not slap your own face?

[OpIv37]

I dont think hes going to be able to come in, in september and contribute right away. what idiot would think that?

I havent had the experience im trying to describe? does that sentence even make sence? I just described what its like to move from the high school to the division 1 level. i experienced it, and i described it. i said i cant imagine how hard it must be to make the next jump...it obviously doesnt get any easier....wtf are you talking about...?

honestly if youve never played a sport at ANY competitive level, you seriously have zero credibility to comment...just my honest opinion...

So, if you don't think he's going to come in and contribute in September, what the hell are we arguing about? All I said is that it's discouraging to hear this report (assuming that it's true) because we need IMMEDIATE help in the pass rush and we're not going to get it.

Honestly, I'm not going to sit here and listen to you tell me you know more about playing pro football than me because you played college lacrosse- there is absolutely no logic in that statement- just my honest opinion.

[OpIv37]

how do you write something like this and then not slap your own face?

I really don't see why you have an issue with that statement.

We needed an upgrade in the pass rush. The FO didn't get one. Maybe they tried and failed, maybe no legitimate options were available- but it's really not relevant to this discussion. A lack of available options doesn't make the need go away and we still went into the draft needing an immediate impact at DE.

[FlyingDutchman]

Honestly, I'm not going to sit here and listen to you tell me you know more about playing pro football than me because you played college lacrosse- there is absolutely no logic in that statement- just my honest opinion.

i never said anything about knowing more about pro football. i said i know a thing or two about making a transition to higher level of sports. which obviously trumps whatever beer league kickball team youve played on. just my honest opinion

[FlyingDutchman]

I really don't see why you have an issue with that statement.

We needed an upgrade in the pass rush. The FO didn't get one. Maybe they tried and failed, maybe no legitimate options were available- but it's really not relevant to this discussion. A lack of available options doesn't make the need go away and we still went into the draft needing an immediate impact at DE.

dude you make absolute no sense....read this statement again...youre just arguing to argue....how is no options and the fact that we really did go after a DE not relevent to the subject we're talking about...honestly....

[FlyingDutchman]

Apparently Ralph Wilson was supposed to fart dust and make a DE appear who was in their prime and dying to play in buffalo. God he cant get anything right.

[Night Train]

I don't blame the thread starter but the entire premise of this PFT Florio report is beyond ******ed. It also provides an opportunity for the usual " Look at ME cry " membership to b&m.

How impressive. Keep perpetuating the fake hysteria. :bf1:

[OpIv37]

dude you make absolute no sense....read this statement again...youre just arguing to argue....how is no options and the fact that we really did go after a DE not relevent to the subject we're talking about...honestly....

It's not relevant because the end result was that we STILL needed immediate impact at DE going into the draft. We got Maybin, who isn't going to bring an immediate impact.

Regardless of how/why/who/whatever happened in FA prior to the draft, it didn't resolve our DE situation. The only "improvement" to our pass rush is Maybin, and even you admit he won't be ready in September.

[OpIv37]

Apparently Ralph Wilson was supposed to fart dust and make a DE appear who was in their prime and dying to play in buffalo. God he cant get anything right.

once again, you misunderstood the point. LACK OF AVAILABLE OPTIONS DOES NOT ELIMINATE THE NEED FOR HELP AT DE. I'm not blaming or criticizing the FO for not finding a DE in FA- I'm simply acknowledging the reality of our DE situation.

We need help at DE.
For whatever reason, we did not get help at DE in FA.
Therefore, we needed an IMMEDIATE contributor at DE in the draft.
We didn't get that either, therefore we're STILL going to struggle with the pass rush, at least until Maybin develops.

I really don't know how to say it any simpler than that.

[OpIv37]

I don't blame the thread starter but the entire premise of this PFT Florio report is beyond ******ed. It also provides an opportunity for the usual " Look at ME cry " membership to b&m.

How impressive. Keep perpetuating the fake hysteria. :bf1:

Florio isn't the first guy to question Maybin's readiness and he certainly won't be the last.

On September 14, we have to go into New England and play a night game against Bellicheck and Brady with virtually the same lackluster pass rush we had last year. I really don't see any "fake hysteria" in that sobering truth.

[OpIv37]

i never said anything about knowing more about pro football. i said i know a thing or two about making a transition to higher level of sports. which obviously trumps whatever beer league kickball team youve played on. just my honest opinion

you made a transition in a different sport at a different level, yet you assume it gives you some kind of expertise on the subject matter. I'm not buying it.

[FlyingDutchman]

you made a transition in a different sport at a different level, yet you assume it gives you some kind of expertise on the subject matter. I'm not buying it.

lol...who said it gives me expertise...wow youre really running with this....i made a statement that youve never played a sport. i made that judgement bc of the way you talk. wouldnt you know i was right. I dont care if its the jump from high school to college or from JV to varsity in high school. rarely is an immediate impact made....i wouldnt expect you to understand....

[OpIv37]

lol...who said it gives me expertise...wow youre really running with this....i made a statement that youve never played a sport. i made that judgement bc of the way you talk. wouldnt you know i was right. I dont care if its the jump from high school to college or from JV to varsity in high school. rarely is an immediate impact made....i wouldnt expect you to understand....

again, different sports, different levels. But hey, keep comparing apples to oranges.

Not that it matters- even you said you don't expect Maybin to be ready by September.

[FlyingDutchman]

We need help at DE.
For whatever reason, we did not get help at DE in FA.
Therefore, we needed an IMMEDIATE contributor at DE in the draft.
We didn't get that either, therefore we're STILL going to struggle with the pass rush, at least until Maybin develops.

I really don't know how to say it any simpler than that.

so with no options at free agency as you admitted, what did you expect the bills to do? they did all you could ask and that is spend their first pick on a DE. What is your answer to an IMMEDIATE contributor in the draft? You know for a fact that Orakpo is going to be immediate and Maybin is not? thats amazing. We are probably going to have to wait for Maybin yes...there was no options in free agency yes....whats your point here.....what are we arguing about....? Is this news to you? Or are you just using this Maybin looked bad in the first days of his professional career as a jump off spot about how we still suck and are screwed again?....

[FlyingDutchman]

again, different sports, different levels. But hey, keep comparing apples to oranges.

Not that it matters- even you said you don't expect Maybin to be ready by September.

lol...please...keep commenting on players making the transition when youve never played a sport in your life...youre comparing apples to bricks...lol...

[Tatonka]

don't worry, I'll bump it again when Maybin looks exactly the same in preseason and the regular season.

because it would make you happy that you were spot on. you would get great satisfaction out of it.. no worries.. we expect nothing less from you.

[HHURRICANE]

dude you live in atlanta, you play this "they take money from me" card a lot. you act like its a mortgage payment. this is a sport. its for fun. is sitting on your butt drinking beers at a sports bar really an investment?....not to get off topic but cripes you get dramatic over ever little darn thing


First off, my time is money. Second, I represent every fan that buys a hat, hot dog, or jersey at the game or online. I come up for one or two games a year. Even though my tickets are free I stiil put money into Ralph's pocket.

The guy promises change and a winner and has delivered a loser for almost 10 years straight.

Than he gets everybody jazzed up for another season of mediocrity.

Most of the local people going to Bills games are making a very large investment. I feel sorry that they are paying and supporting the team so the owner can net 15 million a year on a $50,000 investment that he made in 1960.

The guy is 90 years old and he is not taking it with him. He's made no effort to get a real GM and coach in here and he won't.

Ralph break even for a couple of years and see if you can win one before you are pushing daisies.

[HHURRICANE]

We go through this every year. But in the end OP has been right every single year. It get's old.

Until this team proves otherwise why woud anyone think differently? So hating on Op is pretty stupid.

Maybin is a guy that weighed 227 six months ago and now he's going to be great as a rookie in the NFL. Guess what? If he gets 2 or 3 sacks that would be a huge accomplishment for any rookie DE so OP is already right.

[MikeInRoch]

The problem here is that Op thinks it's more important to have someone who is ready in September than it is to get the player with the best overall career.

[FlyingDutchman]

First off, my time is money. Second, I represent every fan that buys a hat, hot dog, or jersey at the game or online. I come up for one or two games a year. Even though my tickets are free I stiil put money into Ralph's pocket.

The guy promises change and a winner and has delivered a loser for almost 10 years straight.

Than he gets everybody jazzed up for another season of mediocrity.

Most of the local people going to Bills games are making a very large investment. I feel sorry that they are paying and supporting the team so the owner can net 15 million a year on a $50,000 investment that he made in 1960.

The guy is 90 years old and he is not taking it with him. He's made no effort to get a real GM and coach in here and he won't.

Ralph break even for a couple of years and see if you can win one before you are pushing daisies.

great. go root for your patriots and stop giving him money then if its such a problem in your life. that will show him.

[HHURRICANE]

The problem here is that Op thinks it's more important to have someone who is ready in September than it is to get the player with the best overall career.

If this team doesn't start winning soon than these "players" are going to be developing in Toronto.

Alot harder to move a franchise that is winning. Trust me on that one.

[justasportsfan]

First off, my time is money. Second, I represent every fan that buys a hat, hot dog, or jersey at the game or online. I come up for one or two games a year. Even though my tickets are free I stiil put money into Ralph's pocket.

The guy promises change and a winner and has delivered a loser for almost 10 years straight.

Than he gets everybody jazzed up for another season of mediocrity.

Most of the local people going to Bills games are making a very large investment. I feel sorry that they are paying and supporting the team so the owner can net 15 million a year on a $50,000 investment that he made in 1960.

The guy is 90 years old and he is not taking it with him. He's made no effort to get a real GM and coach in here and he won't.

Ralph break even for a couple of years and see if you can win one before you are pushing daisies.

:wail: whaaaaaaaa!

Just leave like you said .

[OpIv37]

so with no options at free agency as you admitted, what did you expect the bills to do? they did all you could ask and that is spend their first pick on a DE. What is your answer to an IMMEDIATE contributor in the draft? You know for a fact that Orakpo is going to be immediate and Maybin is not? thats amazing. We are probably going to have to wait for Maybin yes...there was no options in free agency yes....whats your point here.....what are we arguing about....? Is this news to you? Or are you just using this Maybin looked bad in the first days of his professional career as a jump off spot about how we still suck and are screwed again?....

one more time: LACK OF AVAILABLE OPTIONS DON'T MAKE THE PROBLEM GO AWAY. I don't know what I expected the Bills' FO to do- maybe there was nothing they could do, but it's IRRELEVANT because at the end of the day, the Bills still have problems with the pass rush.

I don't know for a fact that Orakpo would be more ready than Maybin. I do know for a fact that Orakpo is heavier, stronger and in better physical shape, which means he's MORE LIKELY to contribute immediately.

My point is simply this: The Bills pass rush is going to continue to struggle. We all suspected that Maybin would not be ready to help immediately and it's discouraging to see reports further confirming this.

I really don't know what i said that's so contentious, but for some reason you reacted negatively to my post.

[OpIv37]

lol...please...keep commenting on players making the transition when youve never played a sport in your life...youre comparing apples to bricks...lol...

first of all, I've played tons of sports.

Second, keep commenting on players making the transition in a sport you didn't play at a level you never reached as if you know what you're talking about, but no one's buying it.

[OpIv37]

The problem here is that Op thinks it's more important to have someone who is ready in September than it is to get the player with the best overall career.

the problem here is that Op actually watched the games last year and saw an absolutely pathetic pass rush, and Op realizes that we can't win games without an immediate upgrade.

So yeah.... maybe Maybin will have a better career (of course, you don't actually KNOW that- it's just speculation, but you state it like it's a fact) but how many more games are we going to lose before his career takes off?

Don't you people ever get sick of losing? Don't you people ever get sick of building for a future that never actually arrives? Don't you people ever want the crap to stop so we can just win NOW?

Ohhh... we got the guy who MAY be a better player in two years.... by that time, Stroud will be old and likely gone, McGee will be gone, Schobel will likely be gone, other players will leave via FA and we'll have new holes, that the FO will promptly fill.... with guys who will be good in 2 years. It's a vicious, never-ending cycle of rebuilding.

[FlyingDutchman]

first of all, I've played tons of sports.

Second, keep commenting on players making the transition in a sport you didn't play at a level you never reached as if you know what you're talking about, but no one's buying it.

lol...what exactly are people supposed to be buying? i said i transitioned to a division 1 sport...it was difficult...i said i cant imagine what it would be like to transition to the nfl...what exactly im i lying about or trying to get people to "buy"...holy hell youre a strange cat....

[OpIv37]

because it would make you happy that you were spot on. you would get great satisfaction out of it.. no worries.. we expect nothing less from you.

yes, because I clearly gloat when I'm right and I clearly get satisfaction out of all the losing.... can't you see how happy I am with this team? :rolleyes:

[Philagape]

Even if there were no feasible options for upgrading the pass rush this year, the FO should be bashed for creating the problem in the first place: Having to spend the No. 11 overall draft pick to bail out the guys who got $75 million not that long ago. Good call on that.

[jimbohastle51]

you cant argue that jauron, brandon, and modrak were not in a position to take a project, there was no LT there to take and i know orakpo is still ruff around the edges but they could have went with cushing who IS ready to start day 1 and would have fit in for ellison beautifully and still filled a glaring need. if they dont win this year at least 2 of the 3 if not all 3 are gone and maybin could and for the penn state fans on here i said COULD be a guy that never reaches his potential because the next coach might not see what this staff does or just straight up barries him on the depth chart. if we win and maybin doesnt do anything its not as big a deal and it is just a "developemental year" (at least that is what the maybin lovers will say). if we win and maybin does do some good things than its a win-win. if we lose and maybin does nothing and we dont have any pass rush again (he is the only "upgrade" we have went out and got) no one will care how could he could have been or will be because again the next coach might not want him or doesnt give him every chance. it is disapointing that he isnt a fast learner but this is just OTA's and not training camp. maybe with all the pads on and full speed he will get it........ at least i hope. florio is pretty crediable though so this is probably true and maybin was getting frustrated because he isnt just steam rolling right by guys.

[FlyingDutchman]

first of all, I've played tons of sports.

Second, keep commenting on players making the transition in a sport you didn't play at a level you never reached as if you know what you're talking about, but no one's buying it.

yeah you also mentioned you played a ton of sports...and then said that not one was at a competitive level...therefore we should definately take how you feel about what its like to go to a higher level iin sports seriously.....gym class floor hockey doesnt count....

[FlyingDutchman]

the problem here is that Op actually watched the games last year and saw an absolutely pathetic pass rush, and Op realizes that we can't win games without an immediate upgrade.

So yeah.... maybe Maybin will have a better career (of course, you don't actually KNOW that- it's just speculation, but you state it like it's a fact) but how many more games are we going to lose before his career takes off?

Don't you people ever get sick of losing? Don't you people ever get sick of building for a future that never actually arrives? Don't you people ever want the crap to stop so we can just win NOW?

Ohhh... we got the guy who MAY be a better player in two years.... by that time, Stroud will be old and likely gone, McGee will be gone, Schobel will likely be gone, other players will leave via FA and we'll have new holes, that the FO will promptly fill.... with guys who will be good in 2 years. It's a vicious, never-ending cycle of rebuilding.

dude you just never give it a rest do you...

[OpIv37]

yeah you also mentioned you played a ton of sports...and then said that not one was at a competitive level...therefore we should definately take how you feel about what its like to go to a higher level iin sports seriously.....gym class floor hockey doesnt count....

So, your contention is that your opinion on Maybin's transition from college football to pro football is more valid than mine because you made the transition from high school lacrosse to college lacrosse.

Huh? There is no link there.

If you went to Disney's Animal Kingdom, would you claim you know what it's like to be on a real safari?

If you drove an SUV towing a 6 foot Uhaul trailer, would you claim to know what it's like to drive an 18 wheeler with a full cargo load?

If you sparred with your buddy in a boxing ring, would you claim you know what it's like to train for a UFC fight?

Your opinion on something you've never done is no more or less valid than my opinion on something I've never done.

[OpIv37]

dude you just never give it a rest do you...

sounds like someone ran out of counter-points....

[FlyingDutchman]

sounds like someone ran out of counter-points....

why so i can hear you say the same verbal throw up for the 1 zillionth time? I know all your points ive heard them all before. im not going to go down all those roads again with you. EVERYONE has heard them. You feed off of hearing yourself and repeat the same rants on a constant basis. whats going to be my gain?

[OpIv37]

why so i can hear you say the same verbal throw up for the 1 zillionth time? I know all your points ive heard them all before. im not going to go down all those roads again with you. EVERYONE has heard them. You feed off of hearing yourself and repeat the same rants on a constant basis. whats going to be my gain?

Really? I repeat myself?

How many times have you repeated yourself complaining about how I repeat myself?

How many times has someone on here said Whitner is a "hard hitter"? Ever complain about them repeating themselves? What about the number of times people say that "Stroud is a beast" or "Lynch is a beast" or "I have confidence in Edwards"? Ever get mad at those people for repeating themselves? You ever realize that all my so-called "rants" are in response to what other people say? Why don't you ***** about those people repeating themselves?


It's not the repetition that bothers you- it's the content and the fact that I point out things about this team that you'd rather not think about. Sorry that reality bothers you.

[FlyingDutchman]

So, your contention is that your opinion on Maybin's transition from college football to pro football is more valid than mine because you made the transition from high school lacrosse to college lacrosse.

Huh? There is no link there.

If you went to Disney's Animal Kingdom, would you claim you know what it's like to be on a real safari?

If you drove an SUV towing a 6 foot Uhaul trailer, would you claim to know what it's like to drive an 18 wheeler with a full cargo load?

If you sparred with your buddy in a boxing ring, would you claim you know what it's like to train for a UFC fight?

Your opinion on something you've never done is no more or less valid than my opinion on something I've never done.

youre the one who meshed my points buddy. I simply said ive made a semi big sports transition in my life. It took time to adjust. I sucked at first and then was good. I know it takes time to adjust. I cant imagine what it would be like to go to the next level. Therefore Im not worried about Maybin yet. A SECOND point was made, that I can tell youve never played a sport in your life because you fail to empathize with whats its like to be at the beginning of a sports season when youre not even fully padded, AND you have made the biggest trasition in sports there is. Comprende? Its not that difficult.

[FlyingDutchman]

Really? I repeat myself?

How many times have you repeated yourself complaining about how I repeat myself?

I think you answered my question for me


It's not the repetition that bothers you- it's the content and the fact that I point out things about this team that you'd rather not think about. Sorry that reality bothers you.

no trust me its the repetition and the content. we get your points the first time. but you have a touch of the compulisve obsessive and cant let things go. its not the things that your pointing out that annoys me, im aware of the problems. Its the same crap that you seem to obsess over that gets annoying and bothers me.

[Tatonka]

:wail: whaaaaaaaa!

Just leave like you said .

no. he said he wasnt leaving as long as we drafted a LT.. or signed one.. oh wait..

:rofl:

[MikeInRoch]

Don't you people ever get sick of losing? Don't you people ever get sick of building for a future that never actually arrives? Don't you people ever want the crap to stop so we can just win NOW?

Yes, but I also know the REALITY is that we aren't going to win now. Additional pass rush or no.

[MikeInRoch]

It's not the repetition that bothers you- it's the content and the fact that I point out things about this team that you'd rather not think about. Sorry that reality bothers you.

No, I think what bothers most of us is that you have taken it upon yourself to "correct everyone" pretty much at all times.

[billogic99]

why so i can hear you say the same verbal throw up for the 1 zillionth time? I know all your points ive heard them all before. im not going to go down all those roads again with you. EVERYONE has heard them. You feed off of hearing yourself and repeat the same rants on a constant basis. whats going to be my gain?

Just wondering, If OP said the Bills were awsome all the time even though they aren't would that offend you? I'm not taking sides, just wondering what your response is. Cleraly OP has some very valid points and present loads of facts to back his opinion, afterall it's been years since this team has even been competitive let alone good and I see him getting grief about the way he see's this team being managed and people on here seem to want OP to ignore all that's wrong with this team while everyone who thinks the Bills will make the playoffs are thought of as gods here.

I guess my point is what's wrong with looking at the Bills honestly? Whats wrong with presnting cold hard facts about this teams REAL situation? I get annoyed all the time reading what OP writes, but not because he's only negative, but because he's right and that pisses me off. I can't understand why people get upset with a guy who clearly loves this team and is as sick as a fan can get with the mediocrity that permeates this franchise.

I know a lot of Bill fans were happy with the Maybin selection, but the guy is so small, has so little experience and is just not IMO the tyoe of player the Bills needed. With 3 seasons in a row of 7-9 and almost no pass rush to speak of from the outside, the Bills get a guy that has all the speed in the world but no ass to move anyone. JMO, but I don't think the Bills were in a position to take a chance on someone, they needed to get a player that has as few limitations as possible and Maybins only sure fire ability is his speed..that's it! Not enough to be taken that high.

Sorry to ramble, I just think OP cares as much as any Bill fan here and he refuses to accept below avg, I think that's a good thing.

[jamze132]

So from what I gather, Maybin is a bust?

[Night Train]

So from what I gather, Maybin is a bust?

We'd be foolish to sign him now.

[Yasgur's Farm]

Pass rush improvements...
1) 1st year player Maybin will contribute in obvious passing situations.
2) 2nd year player Ellis will contribute after a year of learning and strengthening.
3) Schobel is an improvement in that he wasn't on the field most of '08.
4) Bob Sanders is teaching techniques that have, to date, been unknown to Kelsay.
extra credit) Pisa is still a possibility.

[OpIv37]

Pass rush improvements...
1) 1st year player Maybin will contribute in obvious passing situations.
2) 2nd year player Ellis will contribute after a year of learning and strengthening.
3) Schobel is an improvement in that he wasn't on the field most of '08.
4) Bob Sanders is teaching techniques that have, to date, been unknown to Kelsay.
extra credit) Pisa is still a possibility.

1) Maybin MAY contribute in obvious pass rush situations, but he's going to have to develop much more quickly than he currently is.
2). Ellis didn't get better over the course of last year, and every year we hear about how there's this huge jump between 2nd year players and first year players, yet it never happens. Think Whitner, Poz and McCargo, for starters.
3) Schobel is overrated by many on this board. It's not like our pass rush was kicking ass before he got injured.
4) Sanders won't hurt but it's a band aid on a bullet wound.

[jamze132]

We should have convinced Bruce Smith to come out of retirement and hold off on his induction another 5 years. Even at his age, he would probably be more productive than Kelsay.

[billsfanone]

yeah yeah yeah..... I hear this every year.

"It's just OTA's- wait til training camp"
"It's just training camp- wait til preseason"
"It's just preseason-wait til the regular season"
"It's just the regular season.... oh ****"

I'm sure he'll magically go from "brutal" to NFL-caliber DE in 4 months. Happens all the time. :rolleyes:

"there is always next year"

[HHURRICANE]

great. go root for your patriots and stop giving him money then if its such a problem in your life. that will show him.


You realize that the Bills are moving unless we start winning? I'm trying to see a scenario where the Bills stay and it isn't with them having another 7-9 season.

[Yasgur's Farm]

1) Maybin MAY contribute in obvious pass rush situations, but he's going to have to develop much more quickly than he currently is.
2). Ellis didn't get better over the course of last year, and every year we hear about how there's this huge jump between 2nd year players and first year players, yet it never happens. Think Whitner, Poz and McCargo, for starters.
3) Schobel is overrated by many on this board. It's not like our pass rush was kicking ass before he got injured.
4) Sanders won't hurt but it's a band aid on a bullet wound.1) I'll bet 6 sacks from Maybin.
2) Think Evans, Kyle Williams, Terrence McGee... Why does it aleays have to be looked at from your negative end of the spectrum?
3) Schobel is overrated... I agree... But he should be able to add 4 - 6 sacks to the Bills total in '08.
4) Is good coaching a "band ait"? If so... Get off Jauron's ass.

[ddaryl]

You realize that the Bills are moving unless we start winning? I'm trying to see a scenario where the Bills stay and it isn't with them having another 7-9 season.


winning has NOTHING to do with it

The fans of Buffalo have proven they'll buy season tickets and support the Bills.

The only reason the Bills will move is because of the pure and very simple fact .... you cannot charge $100 - $200 +++ a ticket in the Buffalo area, therefore any new owner will not be able to buy the Bills and pay the bills at the present ticket rates.

in all honestly winning has less then 0 to do with this equation which is why the Bills have seen 50K season tickets for the last few years even while sucking.



but seriously why is this stupid thread 5 pages long... Is there any reason for it accept to have 3+ pages of gloom and doiom debate ???

[OpIv37]

1) I'll bet 6 sacks from Maybin.
2) Think Evans, Kyle Williams, Terrence McGee... Why does it aleays have to be looked at from your negative end of the spectrum?
3) Schobel is overrated... I agree... But he should be able to add 4 - 6 sacks to the Bills total in '08.
4) Is good coaching a "band ait"? If so... Get off Jauron's ass.

1) Good luck with that one.
2) Because the team always LOSES. Whatever positive is more than washed out by the negative. If it was the other way around, this team would actually WIN. And bad examples- McGee took more than two years to come into his own as a CB and Williams is streaky.
3) Agreed.
4) Good coaching can only go so far without talent. We've seen it before with McNally. We really needed a serious talent upgrade on the DL and we didn't get it.

[OpIv37]

winning has NOTHING to do with it

The fans of Buffalo have proven they'll buy season tickets and support the Bills.

The only reason the Bills will move is because of the pure and very simple fact .... you cannot charge $100 - $200 +++ a ticket in the Buffalo area, therefore any new owner will not be able to buy the Bills and pay the bills at the present ticket rates.

in all honestly winning has less then 0 to do with this equation which is why the Bills have seen 50K season tickets for the last few years even while sucking.



but seriously why is this stupid thread 5 pages long... Is there any reason for it accept to have 3+ pages of gloom and doiom debate ???

actually, you're on the right track but that's not entirely correct. The biggest problem isn't the $200 seats. It's the luxury boxes. Buffalo, being a small city by NFL standards, lacks large companies to shell out huge money for luxury boxes, plus the promotional opportunities that come from those kinds of powerhouse companies.

And it's not doom and gloom- it's the reality of the situation.

[LifetimeBillsFan]

1) Maybin MAY contribute in obvious pass rush situations, but he's going to have to develop much more quickly than he currently is.
2). Ellis didn't get better over the course of last year, and every year we hear about how there's this huge jump between 2nd year players and first year players, yet it never happens. Think Whitner, Poz and McCargo, for starters.
3) Schobel is overrated by many on this board. It's not like our pass rush was kicking ass before he got injured.
4) Sanders won't hurt but it's a band aid on a bullet wound.

First of all, Op, I not only made the transition from HS football and lacrosse to college football and lacrosse, but from college lacrosse to semi-pro lacrosse (there was no full professional lacrosse when I played). And, even though I had the benefit of having talked extensively with Bob Chandler and Donnie Green about their experiences in making the transition from college to pro football when I worked for the Bills, I can tell you that nothing compared with the experience of going from playing against guys who were 18-21 to playing against men some of whom were in their late-20s and 30s, had years of experience playing of the sport, were playing for money, not just for fun. Those guys had things in their "bag of tricks" that they could do effortlessly that the guys I played against in college couldn't even dream of being able to do and the mental part of their game--how they would test an opponent, set him up, etc.--was on a totally different level.

Even though I knew, on one level, from what Chandler and Green had told me about their experiences, that the transition was going to be harder than it was going from high school to college and was expecting it to be difficult, the experience was a lot tougher than I was mentally and emotionally prepared for. The first week in practice I was pretty close to being overwhelmed. And, to be honest, when I got on the field with the third-string, I sucked. But, fortunately for me, I had a very patient coach who saw something in me and some teammates who were willing to put in extra time working with me after practice, even after the season started. Even so, I started out on the bench as a third-stinger on a very bad team (it don't get much worse than that!). But, I didn't give up and kept putting in extra work until, halfway through the season, the coach decided to give me a chance to start a game. I did well enough that, except for the next game, I started the rest of the season. Two years later, I was playing well enough that I was chosen to be one of the the two captains of the team--and, yes, there was a significant improvement in my game between my rookie season and my second year (so, I know from personal experience--not just from something that I read--that kind of improvement can and, on occasion, does take place).

I know that my experience wasn't in football, but, from having been around the Bills when I worked for them and talking with Chandler and Green (who were nice enough to stop by and talk with me and the others I worked with almost every day after practices) and some a few other Bills players, I would have to say that the transition from college to the pros is even tougher in the NFL where a player has to absorb so much more information in a very short period of time when he comes into the league (a lacrosse playbook is a LOT thinner than any NFL team's playbook, just for starters!).

So, if I tend to give rookies and raw players who need time to develop the benefit of the doubt, I do it based on my own personal experience as an athlete "back-in-the-day", not because I am some kind of an apologist for the Bills' front office, etc.

That having been said, let me address your comments in this thread, some of which have been quoted above:

1.) You may think that A.Schobel is over-rated and that his return will not have a significant impact on the Bills' pass-rush, but, last season, the Bills logged 10 sacks in the 5 1/2 games that Schobel played (and average of almost 2 per game) and were 5-1 in those games. In their remaining 10 games they logged 14 sacks and were 2-8. Schobel may be streaky at times and maybe he is over-rated by some, but he is a presence and his return WILL have a positive impact on the pass rush from Opening Day on.

2.) Even you have had to admit that the addition of Bob Sanders as the new D-line coach should have a positive impact on the pass rush.

3.) Chris Ellis was a victim of what a lot of rookie DEs fall victim to when they first come into the NFL: after initially being able to get close to the QB a few times, once the offensive linemen figured out what his main move was and negated it, he simply didn't have any counter-moves in his arsenal to answer them. I don't know (and neither do you) how willing Ellis has been to work on learning the counter-moves that he needs to develop in order to be a decent player in the NFL or how hard he has been working on those things this off-season, but he did show some flashes that indicate that he has the ability to be a pretty decent DE in the NFL if he works at it. We will see how far he has come when the preseason starts. Even if Ellis only makes a modest jump in production this season and logs 3-5 sacks in limited playing time as a sub, those will be 3-5 more sacks for the Bills than they got out of him last season and more than they got out of C.Bryan.

4.) As for Maybin, it is utterly ridiculous for anyone to even begin to form an opinion on what kind of player he is going to be at this stage: the kid has just gone through a grand total of 7 practices: 4 with the other rookies and street free agents (which barely count) and just 3 with the actual team.

Florio reports that someone in the Bills organization characterized his performance in those first 3 practices with the vets as "brutal". D.Jauron told the press that he showed a great first step and speed rush, but needs to develop counter-moves. Maybin, himself, said that he will have to adjust to the speed of the game, but that he wasn't overwhelmed by it. And, C.Brown has written that Maybin got a lot of attention from P.Fewell in those practices and realizes that he has a lot to learn and has said that he is trying to learn from A.Schobel, M.Stroud and C.Kelsay. So, what does that tell you?

What it tells me is nothing that should come as a surprise to anyone: Maybin is what the Bills drafted, a speed-rusher with a great first step that opponents will have to respect, but he needs to add some counter-moves to his repertoire to be effective and, right now, the coach is yelling at him in an effort to get him to learn what he needs to learn to be as effective as they need him to be, which has made him realize that he needs to go to the older vets and have them help him to learn those things. There are two things that are encouraging about this: 1.) if P.Fewell is yelling at him, that means that Fewell is paying attention to him and trying to "coach him up" as quickly as he can, and 2.) Maybin is smart enough to not only know that he has a lot to learn, but to go to the vets who can help him and ask them to help him out--which is something that a lot of rookies don't get right away.

We're really not going to know just what Maybin is going to be able to do for the Bills this season until the season actually starts because there are indications that he is smart enough to be learning every day in practice. But there is one thing that we can be sure of--something that Jauron said when asked about him: Maybin's quick first step and speed make him similar to a fast "speed receiver"--even if he doesn't have a refined game (think of a WR not being a great route runner) yet, he still poses a threat that has to be respected because of his speed and quickness. Consequently, even if Maybin were not to make any significant progress in his game between now and Opening Day, he would still be able to help improve the Bills' pass rush--just because, by forcing other teams to respect his speed, he will make things easier for Stroud and Schobel. If Maybin's first step is really as good as it is reputed to be, that alone should allow him to pick up a couple of sacks this season even if most of the time opposing offensive linemen are able to negate him. If he progresses--which we won't be able to judge until the season starts--he should be able to contribute 5-8 sacks this season.

Now, you may argue that that's not much of a contribution from the 11th pick in the draft for a team that needs to dramatically improve its pass rush and that's a valid point. But, when you combine what Maybin, Ellis and Schobel may be able to realistically be expected to contribute to the team this year over the course of a 16 game season, you could easily be looking at an additional 10-18 more sacks. And, that would represent a dramatic improvement over last season, especially the last two-thirds of the season.

Finally, while there has been a lot that the Bills FO has done or not done this offseason that has baffled me, too, your criticism of them in this regard is simply unfair--at best.

According to T.Graham of ESPN, the Bills were the FIRST team to contact J.Taylor when he was released by Washington. He refused to even entertain an offer from them. What were they supposed to do, put a gun to his head and make him sign with the Bills?

J.Peppers made it clear that there were only a couple of teams that he was willing to be traded to and the price that Carolina was demanding for Peppers was so high that none of those teams were willing to make a trade for him. Even if the Bills were willing to meet Carolina's price and offered Peppers the kind of money that he wants, how were they supposed to convince him to be willing to come to the Bills?

Even by your own admission there were no DEs available in free agency who were worth signing.

So, short of waving a magic wand and miraculously creating a veteran DE with pass rushing skills, how were the Bills supposed to address their need to improve the pass rush by doing something other than drafting one?

The risks of drafting a DE are what they are, regardless of which player we are talking about. As for whether taking Orakpo would have been better than taking Maybin given the report that Maybin was supposedly "brutal" in the Bills' OTAs, well, the same website reported last week that Orakpo was having difficulties "working in space" as he tries to make the transition from DE to LB during Washington's initial OTAs. Big deal--six of one, half dozen of the other.... So, there is no guarantee that Orakpo wouldn't be having the same kind of difficulties adjusting to learning how to play in the Bills' defensive system that Maybin is supposedly having, if the Bills had drafted Orakpo instead of Maybin.

As for Maybin's size: he has gotten his weight up to 250 and the Bills' trainer has said that there is no reason that he can't put on another five pounds before training camp opens now that he has adjusted his diet and training program. At 255, Maybin would actually be bigger than R.Mathis, who plays the same position for the Colts. So, his size is not an issue. I don't know how many times it has to be said: in the Tampa 2 defense, size is sacrificed for speed and quickness--and Maybin reportedly has plenty of speed and quickness.

Now, I know that a lot of people here are unhappy that the Bills don't play a 3-4 defense or a 4-3 defense that utilizes bigger players, but the fact is that they don't, they play a Tampa 2 defense and Maybin is a fit in that type of defense (BTW: the NY Daily News is reporting that D.Clark is losing 10 lbs this offseason so that he can play better in the Giant's scheme, which is something of a hybrid of the Tampa 2 and Philly scheme). Criticizing the Bills for playing a Tampa 2 defense and for acquiring players that are a fit for the Tampa 2 defense is NOT going to get them to stop playing this type of defense--a defensive scheme that has been played by two SB winning teams and is still played by a couple of very good NFL playoff contending teams. Such criticisms make no sense and are utterly useless and fruitless.

The Bills have a tough row to hoe in order to make the playoffs this season. They may be a considerably better team than they were last season and still not make the playoffs because of their schedule and the quality of the teams in their division and the AFC as a whole. Adding Maybin, getting some improved play out of Ellis and the return of Schobel should make their pass rush better this season than it was last season, perhaps even significantly better. But, it is unrealistic to expect Maybin to come in and be an immediate saviour all by himself--the odds are that he won't be and that he will struggle at times. If he turns out to be the second coming of D.Freeney, so much the better, but IMHO he still was the best option that the Bills FO had, given the refusal of Taylor and Peppers to even consider them and the paucity of pass rushers available in free agency, who fit best into their defensive system.

So, now, let's give the kid a chance to show what he can do, how much he can learn, and how much he will be able to contribute to the Bills this season instead of making utterly ridiculous assumptions and conclusions about how bad he will be based on one unattributed report published on a website after Maybin has had only three practices, without pads, with the whole team.

[Syderick]

All it said was he was in skirmish, not much about how he was practising.

[scartown]

LifetimeBillsFan great post!

[OpIv37]

Lifetime, generally a good post but you missed a few things.

First, no one is saying Maybin is going to be a bust. It's way too early to say that. The question is whether or not he's going to be able to come in and contribute right away.

Second, no one is basing the answer to that question on Florio's report only. Florio is merely confirming what many people have been saying since even before the draft.

Third, and I don't know why I have to say this so many times, lack of available options at DE in FA don't make our problems at DE go away. Schobel, Maybin and Bob Sanders aren't enough to immediately improve a pathetic pass rush starting on September 14th. It's just not going to happen. The Bills unsuccessfully tried to sign a DE/LB hybrid on the wrong side of 30 who cares more about reality TV than football? So what? We didn't get him and we still need more talent on the DL. At the end of the day, at best we got a long-term answer to an immediate problem. It doesn't bode well for winning more games this year than we did last year, and even you admit that the schedule is more difficult.

[Yasgur's Farm]

Save your breath Lifetime...

[FlyingDutchman]

another great post by LTBF

[Mad Bomber]

2) Because the team always LOSES.
0-16, 0-16, 0-16, 0-16......

[Goobylal]

Second, no one is basing the answer to that question on Florio's report only. Florio is merely confirming what many people have been saying since even before the draft.
It's more likely that whoever said that Maybin looked "brutal" probably was basing it mostly off of the pre-draft reports. Nowhere else has this even been suggested, and PFT's credibility is pretty weak. In their rush to break news, they more often end-up breaking wind.

[OpIv37]

It's more likely that whoever said that Maybin looked "brutal" probably was basing it mostly off of the pre-draft reports. Nowhere else has this even been suggested, and PFT's credibility is pretty weak. In their rush to break news, they more often end-up breaking wind.

fair enough- I acknowledged in my first post that I don't know how credible the guy is.

[Goobylal]

fair enough- I acknowledged in my first post that I don't know how credible the guy is.
Like any media outlet, controversy sells. He figures that even if he gets it wrong, he'll get a ton of hits, and then can later write a blurb about how he was wrong, and get another ton of hits telling him what an idiot he is. All the while he's making more and more money.

[justasportsfan]

Lifetime, generally a good post but you missed a few things.

First, no one is saying Maybin is going to be a bust. It's way too early to say that. The question is whether or not he's going to be able to come in and contribute right away.

Second, no one is basing the answer to that question on Florio's report only. Florio is merely confirming what many people have been saying since even before the draft.

Third, and I don't know why I have to say this so many times, lack of available options at DE in FA don't make our problems at DE go away. Schobel, Maybin and Bob Sanders aren't enough to immediately improve a pathetic pass rush starting on September 14th. It's just not going to happen. The Bills unsuccessfully tried to sign a DE/LB hybrid on the wrong side of 30 who cares more about reality TV than football? So what? We didn't get him and we still need more talent on the DL. At the end of the day, at best we got a long-term answer to an immediate problem. It doesn't bode well for winning more games this year than we did last year, and even you admit that the schedule is more difficult.

Florio and pft blows. I remember a few years ago when some finfan posted a supposed schedule leak on finhell . few hours later it was on pffffttts front page.It was a false leak started by a poster from finhell nonethless. Start some stupid rumor here and it could end up in pffffts front page.

[OpIv37]

Florio and pft blows. I remember a few years ago when some finfan posted a supposed schedule leak on finhell . few hours later it was on pffffttts front page.It was a false leak started by a poster from finhell nonethless. Start some stupid rumor here and it could end up in pffffts front page.

I almost did that earlier today but I didn't have the time to really commit to it.

[bigbry]

Florio and pft blows. I remember a few years ago when some finfan posted a supposed schedule leak on finhell . few hours later it was on pffffttts front page.It was a false leak started by a poster from finhell nonethless. Start some stupid rumor here and it could end up in pffffts front page.


The Bills will hold an open tryout. Thats right....ANYBODY!
Justa is already in line. He has a helmet on with white tape that reads justagivemeashotatitIcanthrowtwiceasmanyinterceptionsforhalftheprice.
(the tape goes around the entire helmet)

[Bill Cody]

Lifetime, generally a good post but you missed a few things.



Well it was a pretty short post for him, only 8 paragraphs.

[CoolBreeze]

Maybin is a Beast!

[WeAreArthurMoates]

This is why no one should ever read report that claims he has inside knowledge.


[Comment From Joe, nyc]
profootball talk had an article saying that sources told them Maybin looked really lost in OTA's..is that true?
2:58
I've been there for every practice and I don't buy it. ... Again, I think it's downright silly to read too much into T-shirt and shorts practices, particularly with linemen. And as far as being lost goes, DE is not going to be one of the more complicated positions. Now a rookie WR or TE - like Shawn Nelson - I think he's going to struggle early, and he is struggling early -- which is to be expected.

Great site for reporting but he's not an insider, never will be.

[acehole]

Even if there were no feasible options for upgrading the pass rush this year, the FO should be bashed for creating the problem in the first place: Having to spend the No. 11 overall draft pick to bail out the guys who got $75 million not that long ago. Good call on that.

Psst dummy he became injured.

[Mike]

Generally Speaking, if a player is brutal in OTAs - which is easier than training camp- doesn't this lead us the the understanding that chance are that he will be even more brutal during camp and not the other way around?

Moreover, if he is brutal at camp, competing against other rookies on the O-Line, won't he be even more brutal when facing NFL talent?

Assuming that he will be a difference maker -magically- if indeed he is brutal right now, is wishful thinking.

[FlyingDutchman]

Generally Speaking, if a player is brutal in OTAs - which is easier than training camp- doesn't this lead us the the understanding that chance are that he will be even more brutal during camp and not the other way around?

Moreover, if he is brutal at camp, competing against other rookies on the O-Line, won't he be even more brutal when facing NFL talent?

Assuming that he will be a difference maker -magically- if indeed he is brutal right now, is wishful thinking.

youre 100% right. maybin is screwed. no chance rookies who are a week into their career can improve. theres just no way. its only down hill from here. damn it.

[FlyingDutchman]

seriously wtf is wrong with some of you people?

[Dying_-2-_Live]

seriously wtf is wrong with some of you people?

Things like this can never be explained

[John Doe]

Maybin continues to impress

We've heard reports that DE Aaron Maybin has been impressive on-field (very) early in his Bills career. The first reward of that impression may have come Wednesday, as Maybin saw his first reps with the top defensive unit:

Aaron Maybin was sprinkled in with the first team defense during the course of practice Wednesday. He was mainly inserted during the run fit portion of practice.

This isn't terribly surprising - it was going to happen at some point, as Maybin is going to play a substantial amount of snaps this season - but to hear it happening this quickly is encouraging. Buffalo's two rookie guards have been getting this treatment, but let's face it - their paths to starting roles are pretty clutter-free. Maybin's road isn't as simple; with three established vets ahead of him, if Maybin is carving himself a niche already, that's nothing but good news.

http://www.buffalorumblings.com/2009/5/20/881745/bills-qb-edwards-knocking-the-rust