The Bills completely blew the McGee/Greer situation

[OpIv37]

Now, let me preface this by saying I like Terrence McGee. He contributed as a returner from the instant he was drafted, and while it took him some time to develop, he's been a very solid corner for us over the last few seasons. From a football standpoint, I have absolutely no problems keeping the guy.

It's the business end of things that concerns me. McGee is 29 and looking for a new contract. As a starting CB, that could put him in the $7 million a year range, and he'll be north of 30 when it kicks in. Jabari Greer went to NO for something in the neighborhood of $5 million a year, which is very reasonable for a starting CB. Greer is 2 years younger than McGee, but has a lot less mileage on his body due to the fact that it took him longer to develop into a starting role and the fact that he never returned kicks.

On top of that, the Bills still need help at DE, DT, OLB, OL and S. We could have signed Greer, traded McGee for another player because his value is still high, and had one less hole plus an extra $2 million in cap space (roughly- we don't know what McGee will get just yet).

We would have been fine at CB with Greer, McKelvin, Florence, Corner, and Youboty, plus Lankster looks talented too (although, to be fair, the Bills had no way of knowing that when they chose not to resign Greer).

The Greer situation is over and done with, so given where we are now, I hope the Bills re-sign McGee. But from a business standpoint it looks like the Bills blew it again. This type of decision by the moronic FO is what constantly holds this team back.

[Buffalogic]

The bills completely blew 'insert topic here'.

You are done reading an OP post, move along.

[OpIv37]

The bills completely blew 'insert topic here'.

You are done reading an OP post, move along.

I don't want to get in an argument over my tone/attitude/outlook. It's a huge waste of time.

If you have a comment on the McGee/Greer situation, I'll be more than happy to respond.

[Buffalogic]

Shake it up a little Op, give us something we don't expect for a change.

[casdhf]

McGee has consistently been one of our best corners since he arrived. Greer was basically a one year starter. I don't see the problem with paying McGee for a couple more seasons.

[sdbillsfan2]

Op , I can't disagree with a single thing you pointed out . But...............
we're talking the Bills front office here. How many of their latest great works have succeeded ? You made to much common sense.
I often wondered if any of them (front office lackeys) ever read any of the Bills forums . Every once in awhile , they could learn something from the fans!

[Devin]

Greer has dne exceptionally well in camp/pre-season I was really dissapointed we let him go. I know they are quite big on him here in NO.

[Dr. Pepper]

Now, let me preface this by saying I like Terrence McGee. He contributed as a returner from the instant he was drafted, and while it took him some time to develop, he's been a very solid corner for us over the last few seasons. From a football standpoint, I have absolutely no problems keeping the guy.

It's the business end of things that concerns me. McGee is 29 and looking for a new contract. As a starting CB, that could put him in the $7 million a year range, and he'll be north of 30 when it kicks in. Jabari Greer went to NO for something in the neighborhood of $5 million a year, which is very reasonable for a starting CB. Greer is 2 years younger than McGee, but has a lot less mileage on his body due to the fact that it took him longer to develop into a starting role and the fact that he never returned kicks.

On top of that, the Bills still need help at DE, DT, OLB, OL and S. We could have signed Greer, traded McGee for another player because his value is still high, and had one less hole plus an extra $2 million in cap space (roughly- we don't know what McGee will get just yet).

We would have been fine at CB with Greer, McKelvin, Florence, Corner, and Youboty, plus Lankster looks talented too (although, to be fair, the Bills had no way of knowing that when they chose not to resign Greer).

The Greer situation is over and done with, so given where we are now, I hope the Bills re-sign McGee. But from a business standpoint it looks like the Bills blew it again. This type of decision by the moronic FO is what constantly holds this team back.

sadly, i agree even though McGee is probably my favorite player. that said, i hope we re-sign him so my jersey is still current!

[Buffalogic]

The bills over the years have proven to be a CB mill so I don't see why this would change with McGee. Winfield then Clements, the next in line to leave is probably McGee.

I find it very intriguing that the bills continue to develop pro bowl caliber talent at the CB position. The bills screw up a lot of areas but they have done really well when it comes to CB development/production so I guess I trust whatever they do when they decide what to do with McGee.

[Meathead]

i wouldnt say completely blew but its an interesting point

i was surprised the bills just let greer walk but i assumed they just didnt think he was worth what greer thought he was. the bills must have made him some kind of offer to stay, i wonder how far apart they were

statistically theres no comparison, but greer got less starting opptys, and admittedly just isnt the playmaker mcgee is

if greer gets five mil and mcgee gets seven then is their play two mil apart? what if mcgee gets more?

right now id still take mcgee but i liked greer enough to say he could close that gap with his play enough to make it a worthwhile swap

[Jeff1220]

I agree completely, but I think the Bills FO probably over-analyzed themselves. They probably figured that Yobouty or Corner would develop (as well as McKelvin obviously) and become a bargaining chip in negotiations w/McGee. If there's interest in McGee for top dollar, I see the Bills FO letting him walk too, just like most other DBs developed on this team.

[Michael82]

From what I understand, the Bills were interested in Greer the whole time and had a contract offer on the table...but he chose to string them along and then signed with New Orleans for a lot less than we all thought. Once Florence signed his deal, the Bills took the contract offer off the table and Greer signed with the Saints.

[Dr. Lecter]

Where I will disagree with you is that I don't think Greer is as good as McGee and is overvalued by Bills fans.

He is a good player and a good story as a UDFA that made it, but I think McGee is quite a bit better as a CB.

[Tatonka]

since when does it matter if the bills spend a couple million on a guy.. they dont use all their money anyway.. and we have no idea what they are going to pay mcgee anyway.. that said.. if it is more than greer, so what.. he is a better corner and deserves more money.. on top of being a pro bowl caliber returner.

[justasportsfan]

Greer hasn't proven to be better than Mcgee in regular season. greer himself has been inconsistent but then again, who hasn't under this staff?

[Ickybaluky]

I think McGee is clearly a better player than Greer, especially when you look at his ST contributions. In fact, I think McGee is a very good player. I know Bill Belichick thinks a lot of him and has spoken very highly of him in the past. When you consider his return ability, that makes him even more valuable. I think McGee is in the top half of the NFL as far as starting CB go. He is athletic, willing to hit and makes his share of plays on the ball. He isn't the biggest guy in the world, but he makes up for it with quickness and leaping ability.

In the NFL today there really aren't any shutdown CB left. With the big WR out there now and the rules changes to favor the passing game, it is very difficult to play CB in the league. McGee gives up plays on occasion as all CB do, but there really aren't a lot of guys clearly better than him. I think he is an underrated player.

If I were to criticize the Bills, it would be more for signing Drayton Florence. Granted, Greer ended up making a lot more money, but Florence is not a suitable replacement, IMO. I don't have a very high opinion of Florence after watching the Pats target him mercilessly when he was with San Diego. Brady used to pick on him regularly, and that was before he was dreadful last year in Jacksonville. He was a weak link on a good San Diego defense, and not a suitable replacement for Greer, IMO.

[casdhf]

I doubt the Bills signed Florence to replace Greer ... I think they signed him to replace McKelvin, who replaced Greer.

[yordad]

McKelvin was Greer's replacement, not Florence. Did someone want to pay 5 mil for a backup when the position is super deep?

Did anyone offer a trade? Should the Bills have contacted teams about a deal for McGee? Remember, any suitor would have to have an extension worked out. What should they have asked for? A 3rd, and settled for a 5th? How long do these things take? And if the timing isn't right, and we resigned Greer, we would have lost bargaining power.

Maybe the Bills did send out feelers. We do not know. It probably just isn't as easy as it sounds.

In the end, we may keep the better of the two.

[Michael82]

I think McGee is clearly a better player than Greer, especially when you look at his ST contributions. In fact, I think McGee is a very good player. I know Bill Belichick thinks a lot of him and has spoken very highly of him in the past. When you consider his return ability, that makes him even more valuable. I think McGee is in the top half of the NFL as far as starting CB go. He is athletic, willing to hit and makes his share of plays on the ball. He isn't the biggest guy in the world, but he makes up for it with quickness and leaping ability.

In the NFL today there really aren't any shutdown CB left. With the big WR out there now and the rules changes to favor the passing game, it is very difficult to play CB in the league. McGee gives up plays on occasion as all CB do, but there really aren't a lot of guys clearly better than him. I think he is an underrated player.

If I were to criticize the Bills, it would be more for signing Drayton Florence. Granted, Greer ended up making a lot more money, but Florence is not a suitable replacement, IMO. I don't have a very high opinion of Florence after watching the Pats target him mercilessly when he was with San Diego. Brady used to pick on him regularly, and that was before he was dreadful last year in Jacksonville. He was a weak link on a good San Diego defense, and not a suitable replacement for Greer, IMO.
Florence won't even make the team, IMO.

[HHURRICANE]

Op too early to tell. I was in the camp of letting Greer go. I watched some of his picks and they were more about being at the right place at the right time than his defensive skills.

I don't feel like we made a mistake. In addition I don't think McGee is someone we have to have keep either.

[yordad]

Op too early to tell. I was in the camp of letting Greer go. I watched some of his picks and they were more about being at the right place at the right time than his defensive skills.

I don't feel like we made a mistake. In addition I don't think McGee is someone we have to have either.Defensive skill puts you in the right place at the right time.

[psubills62]

Now, let me preface this by saying I like Terrence McGee. He contributed as a returner from the instant he was drafted, and while it took him some time to develop, he's been a very solid corner for us over the last few seasons. From a football standpoint, I have absolutely no problems keeping the guy.

It's the business end of things that concerns me. McGee is 29 and looking for a new contract. As a starting CB, that could put him in the $7 million a year range, and he'll be north of 30 when it kicks in. Jabari Greer went to NO for something in the neighborhood of $5 million a year, which is very reasonable for a starting CB. Greer is 2 years younger than McGee, but has a lot less mileage on his body due to the fact that it took him longer to develop into a starting role and the fact that he never returned kicks.

On top of that, the Bills still need help at DE, DT, OLB, OL and S. We could have signed Greer, traded McGee for another player because his value is still high, and had one less hole plus an extra $2 million in cap space (roughly- we don't know what McGee will get just yet).

We would have been fine at CB with Greer, McKelvin, Florence, Corner, and Youboty, plus Lankster looks talented too (although, to be fair, the Bills had no way of knowing that when they chose not to resign Greer).

The Greer situation is over and done with, so given where we are now, I hope the Bills re-sign McGee. But from a business standpoint it looks like the Bills blew it again. This type of decision by the moronic FO is what constantly holds this team back.

I don't think it's something the Bills blew. Everyone knew McKelvin was going to become the starter whether Greer stayed or not. Why would he stay (even if they paid him 6 million per year) to be a nickel back? Heck, I'm sure if he did stay then there would be plenty of people talking about Reggie Corner supplanting him at the nickel.

I know I heard the Bills made an offer. It may not have been 5 million per year, but it was close. And I wouldn't want them to spend that much on a nickel CB anyway. But why wouldn't he go somewhere else to be a starter? I'm pretty sure it was his choice. All I know is that the Bills need to sign either McGee or Youboty long-term so they can stop drafting 3-4 DB's every year.

[OpIv37]

Where I will disagree with you is that I don't think Greer is as good as McGee and is overvalued by Bills fans.

He is a good player and a good story as a UDFA that made it, but I think McGee is quite a bit better as a CB.

I don't think he's as good as McGee either, but given the other talent we have at CB and the fact that he's still a pretty good player, I think we could have afforded to lose a little talent at CB in order to fill another hole or two.

[OpIv37]

I don't think it's something the Bills blew. Everyone knew McKelvin was going to become the starter whether Greer stayed or not. Why would he stay (even if they paid him 6 million per year) to be a nickel back? Heck, I'm sure if he did stay then there would be plenty of people talking about Reggie Corner supplanting him at the nickel.

I know I heard the Bills made an offer. It may not have been 5 million per year, but it was close. And I wouldn't want them to spend that much on a nickel CB anyway. But why wouldn't he go somewhere else to be a starter? I'm pretty sure it was his choice. All I know is that the Bills need to sign either McGee or Youboty long-term so they can stop drafting 3-4 DB's every year.

Paying Greer 5 or 6 million to be a nickel back would be dumb, but I think they should have traded McGee so Greer would still be a starter.

[justasportsfan]

They way Corner played late in the season made Greer dispensable.

[psubills62]

Paying Greer 5 or 6 million to be a nickel back would be dumb, but I think they should have traded McGee so Greer would still be a starter.

Maybe, though I didn't see any reason why Greer would have been a better starter than McGee. From all indications, McGee was the one they would rather have, given the choice of the two. I think most people would rather have McGee. I think if they had done what you suggest, most people would be saying they were too cheap to pay for McGee.

[justasportsfan]

Paying Greer 5 or 6 million to be a nickel back would be dumb, but I think they should have traded McGee so Greer would still be a starter.
no thanks. McGee can also return kicks. Making Greer start over McGee doesn't make this D any better but it makes our st worse. Thats 2 negatives to both units and you'd find a way to complain about it.

[Mahdi]

Now, let me preface this by saying I like Terrence McGee. He contributed as a returner from the instant he was drafted, and while it took him some time to develop, he's been a very solid corner for us over the last few seasons. From a football standpoint, I have absolutely no problems keeping the guy.

It's the business end of things that concerns me. McGee is 29 and looking for a new contract. As a starting CB, that could put him in the $7 million a year range, and he'll be north of 30 when it kicks in. Jabari Greer went to NO for something in the neighborhood of $5 million a year, which is very reasonable for a starting CB. Greer is 2 years younger than McGee, but has a lot less mileage on his body due to the fact that it took him longer to develop into a starting role and the fact that he never returned kicks.

On top of that, the Bills still need help at DE, DT, OLB, OL and S. We could have signed Greer, traded McGee for another player because his value is still high, and had one less hole plus an extra $2 million in cap space (roughly- we don't know what McGee will get just yet).

We would have been fine at CB with Greer, McKelvin, Florence, Corner, and Youboty, plus Lankster looks talented too (although, to be fair, the Bills had no way of knowing that when they chose not to resign Greer).

The Greer situation is over and done with, so given where we are now, I hope the Bills re-sign McGee. But from a business standpoint it looks like the Bills blew it again. This type of decision by the moronic FO is what constantly holds this team back.
Greer was wayyy overrated on this team. He had a couple of nice plays last year but overall he was abused in coverage.

He consistently got beat by bigger receivers, especially to the middle of the field and offenses knew it and took advantage of it EVERY game.

I was relieved when the Bills did not offer him a contract good enough for him to stay. Obviously I wasn't the only one paying close attention to his play.

If you need proof, watch the Cardinals game last year. Breaston and Fitzgerald had slant and crossing routes on him ALL DAY.

Jacksonville also took advantage of Greer to the inside as did the Chargers and pretty much every team we faced.

[The Juice Is Loose]

OP, your tripping over your feet on this one. I can usually get the point and agree, generally, with the things your saying...not here.

Greer never did anything. McGee extended before and for a reasonable contract. He's not going to hit us up for some huge contract, and he knows it. And we know it. He's one of few guys that almost never lets us down, with the exception being that one game when he was injurred last season.

McGee is our guy, he'll extend at a reasonable rate, probably less than what Greer got. He's a better tackler, better cover guy, makes more plays, makes more picks, does better vs. the guys like Moss and is better with the ball in his hands.

To say that the Bills "completely blew" it is dead wrong. We have 2 solid starting corners and 3 solid corners fighting for the nikel spot. We have Reggie Corner, who could come up and take McGee's spot if McGee starts to slip. Reggie is def further along than Greer was at the same time in his career, by far.

We have tons of depth at CB, it would have been dumb to overpay the undersized Jabari Greer who had less than 1 season of starting.

This team can't just let all of its experience walk.

[Mahdi]

OP, your tripping over your feet on this one. I can usually get the point and agree, generally, with the things your saying...not here.

Greer never did anything. McGee extended before and for a reasonable contract. He's not going to hit us up for some huge contract, and he knows it. And we know it. He's one of few guys that almost never lets us down, with the exception being that one game when he was injurred last season.

McGee is our guy, he'll extend at a reasonable rate, probably less than what Greer got. He's a better tackler, better cover guy, makes more plays, makes more picks, does better vs. the guys like Moss and is better with the ball in his hands.

To say that the Bills "completely blew" it is dead wrong. We have 2 solid starting corners and 3 solid corners fighting for the nikel spot. We have Reggie Corner, who could come up and take McGee's spot if McGee starts to slip. Reggie is def further along than Greer was at the same time in his career, by far.

We have tons of depth at CB, it would have been dumb to overpay the undersized Jabari Greer who had less than 1 season of starting.

This team can't just let all of its experience walk.
NO WAY he signs for less or close to Greer. I think McGee will get in the 7 to 7.5 mil range.

I expect a 4 year 28-29 million contract. OR 5 year 35 mil. Something like 18 mil guaranteed.

[mybills]

Hands down McGee has more to offer than Greer ever did. It's about time they pay the man when it comes to our CB's. He's worth the money, so that shouldn't even be an issue. Much like your argument about the title of a player counting when I said two guys reminded me of each other. I don't care what their position/title is, I've seen RB's throw like QB's and QB's run like RB's, and I saw one of our rookies looking like our old MLB even though he's not a MLB.
K?
:cynic:

[OpIv37]

no thanks. McGee can also return kicks. Making Greer start over McGee doesn't make this D any better but it makes our st worse. Thats 2 negatives to both units and you'd find a way to complain about it.

he can return kicks, but he doesn't any more.

[mysticsoto]

Hands down McGee has more to offer than Greer ever did. It's about time they pay the man when it comes to our CB's. He's worth the money, so that shouldn't even be an issue. Much like your argument about the title of a player counting when I said two guys reminded me of each other. I don't care what their position/title is, I've seen RB's throw like QB's and QB's run like RB's, and I saw one of our rookies looking like our old MLB even though he's not a MLB.
K?
:cynic:

I agree that McGee is hands down better than Greer (though I liked Greer too). But like Justa said, I think the fact that we had up and coming youngsters showing lots of promise made Greer dispensable.

That being said, how much is McGee worth? Are you advocating spending Nate Clements money on him??? I don't know if I can agree with that when we have Corner, Youboty (who was coming on last season though he seems to get injured alot) and Lankster and Harris - who are young but showing promise already. Corner is already showing enough to probably play nickel this year and may be able to move up next year to #2 alongside McKelvin. A future cast of McKelvin, Corner and Lankster might be a top ball-hawking secondary in the NFL...and if Byrd starts to produce as they envision him to...we'll have the best DBs in the NFL.

Side note: Too bad a cover-2 system needs a top Dline and not top defensive backs to excel. :( Jauron appears to not know what he's doing...

[mybills]

I agree that McGee is hands down better than Greer (though I liked Greer too). But like Justa said, I think the fact that we had up and coming youngsters showing lots of promise made Greer dispensable.

That being said, how much is McGee worth? Are you advocating spending Nate Clements money on him???
No, I'm advocating that I'm sick of them rolling the dice on newbies that might show promise, and getting rid of quality veterans that can help this team. Keeping McGee is the smartest thing they can do right now, since there are so many newbies and fairly newbies on this team.

[ddaryl]

Why would we pay Mcgee 7 million. McGee hasn't done anything near good enough to believe he deserves 7 mil a season. If they do offer Mcgee a 7 mil a season contract well that pretty much is status quo for this team. Over pay average players like Schobel and Kelsay

My opinion is they are negotiating with Mcgee now so they can get a home town discount.. if he says no then they move on to the next priority on the FA list.

[Mahdi]

Why would we pay Mcgee 7 million. McGee hasn't done anything near good enough to believe he deserves 7 mil a season. If they do offer Mcgee a 7 mil a season contract well that pretty much is status quo for this team. Over pay average players like Schobel and Kelsay

My opinion is they are negotiating with Mcgee now so they can get a home town discount.. if he says no then they move on to the next priority on the FA list.
Greer is not a dependable starter.

Whether McGee is worth hanging on to for 7 mil a season is debatable.

I wouldn't mind not re-signing McGee and spending the money on DLmen instead. I think having Mckelvin, Youboty, Corner and Lankster is solid. Giving those DBs a pass rush would make them great.

[ddaryl]

Greer is not a dependable starter.

Whether McGee is worth hanging on to for 7 mil a season is debatable.

I wouldn't mind not re-signing McGee and spending the money on DLmen instead. I think having Mckelvin, Youboty, Corner and Lankster is solid. Giving those DBs a pass rush would make them great.


Greer was developing and had upside... and like you said with the other CB's stepping up I don't think we miss Mcgee.

McGee is NOT worth 7 mil. there is no debate. He rarely makes big plays, and I would only pay 7 mil to a player who was averaging 3+ INT's a year consistently or was abonafide shut down CB... Mcgee is neither


your last statement about DL is exactly what this team needs ot do.. The front 7 in fact is where our problems lie

[OpIv37]

Greer is not a dependable starter.

Whether McGee is worth hanging on to for 7 mil a season is debatable.

I wouldn't mind not re-signing McGee and spending the money on DLmen instead. I think having Mckelvin, Youboty, Corner and Lankster is solid. Giving those DBs a pass rush would make them great.

Wait a second- you say Greer isn't a dependable starter but then in the same breath you say you wouldn't mind holding onto Youboty who can't even stay on the field? That doesn't make any sense.

[Mahdi]

Wait a second- you say Greer isn't a dependable starter but then in the same breath you say you wouldn't mind holding onto Youboty who can't even stay on the field? That doesn't make any sense.
Holding on to Youboty is obviously dependent on his play in 09. If the Bills can lock him up on the cheap it would be a good move. We have all seen that he has a ton of potential when healthy.

[MassEffect218435]

From what I understand, the Bills were interested in Greer the whole time and had a contract offer on the table...but he chose to string them along and then signed with New Orleans for a lot less than we all thought. Once Florence signed his deal, the Bills took the contract offer off the table and Greer signed with the Saints.Starting to see a trend?

[Mr. Pink]

Belichick speaks highly of any player. I wouldn't take any stock in what he says publicly first off.

McGee, while a good returner, is an average at best corner. He'd be better suited to being a nickle back than a teams number 1 corner - which is what he is here.

Is Greer any better than him as a corner? Well he's bigger and more physical but not a number 1 or 2 corner either.

So it should come down to simple economics, whoever is cheaper is the guy that should have been retained.

Or neither when McGee's contract is up.

Return ability should not be the end all be all reason why you keep a guy as your number 1 corner. No matter how you want to portray it.

[Mahdi]

Belichick speaks highly of any player. I wouldn't take any stock in what he says publicly first off.

McGee, while a good returner, is an average at best corner. He'd be better suited to being a nickle back than a teams number 1 corner - which is what he is here.

Is Greer any better than him as a corner? Well he's bigger and more physical but not a number 1 or 2 corner either.

So it should come down to simple economics, whoever is cheaper is the guy that should have been retained.

Or neither when McGee's contract is up.

Return ability should not be the end all be all reason why you keep a guy as your number 1 corner. No matter how you want to portray it.
Greer bigger and more physical???

[Marvelous]

I agree. Greer was a huge loss, but they drafted McKelvin. and McKelvin has a way higher ceiing. And we drafted Byrd in the 2nd and two more later in draft.

--There is a unknown here as well---Maybe Greer wanted OUT. You know, to go to a contender. No pun against us, but 1995 was our last fortune & Glory.

-7 Mill a season is too much for McGee @30 years old.. BUT My Local Phinhead buddy. The samme @sshole who put the custom made Thurman/Dolphin cards all over town..He saty outta the money side o' the game & ima thinking he just wants every player he likes. More then not he finds happiness in this..just a FYI..

---McGee has earned my respect and i hope he stays w/ us till it's obvious he's not better then our other CB's..