Is it just me or is it looking more like Bradys only good because of coaching

[Mitchell55]

Think about it. Orton sucked last year and now is with a former coach under Billicheck in McDaniels and is doing great. Cassell had a good season with NE last year and now is average for KC. Bleadsoe did great for NE left and had 1 good season for Buffalo and after that he sucked. It makes you wonder how Brady would be in a different team.

[Joe Fo Sho]

Brady blows.

What's a prodaji?

[DynaPaul]

It makes you wonder how Brady would be in a different team.

He'd probably be the nobody that he really is.

[Mitchell55]

Brady blows.

What's a prodaji?



I dont know how to say it. Its basically like a coach that learns from the HC for years to finally become a coach. They use the term alot when dealing with Caldwell and Dungy.

[Bufftp]

it's prodigy

[BillsWin]

Orton is riding the waves of a solid defense and mistake free play by the players around him. His offensive line is holding up when he really needs it to. Orton is garbage, but his team is making him look good.

[BILLSROCK1212]

Orton is riding the waves of a solid defense and mistake free play by the players around him. His offensive line is holding up when he really needs it to. Orton is garbage, but his team is making him look good.
Kyle Orton is actually playing nearly mistake-free football and throwing very nicely.

[psubills62]

Orton is riding the waves of a solid defense and mistake free play by the players around him. His offensive line is holding up when he really needs it to. Orton is garbage, but his team is making him look good.

I don't think Orton is garbage, but he's definitely more of a game-manager than a game-winner for the most part. He's a 2-TD, 1-INT per game guy that shouldn't be the focal point of an offense.

[EDS]

Think about it. Orton sucked last year and now is with a former coach under Billicheck in McDaniels and is doing great. Cassell had a good season with NE last year and now is average for KC. Bleadsoe did great for NE left and had 1 good season for Buffalo and after that he sucked. It makes you wonder how Brady would be in a different team.

Its just you. Brady is a great QB and would likely suceed in a number of situations.

[ddaryl]

Brady is a phenom... All the coaching in the world doesn't produce the type of passes Brady makes on a regular basis, nor does it assure a guy like Brady can read D's as fast as he does....


BUT mix in a high quality coach to Brady's talent and you have a great QB who is a shoe in as a future HOF QB

[LtFinFan66]

Brady is good. Very good




now I will go puke and shower...I feel sick and dirty

[The King]

Think about it. Orton sucked last year and now is with a former coach under Billicheck in McDaniels and is doing great. Cassell had a good season with NE last year and now is average for KC. Bleadsoe did great for NE left and had 1 good season for Buffalo and after that he sucked. It makes you wonder how Brady would be in a different team.:rofl:

I watched Bledsoes comeback game against the Chiefs last week. That guy has a top 10 arm in NFL history. His arm belongs in the same sentence with Peyton Manning and Marino... West Coast QB's like Brady, Cassell and Orton need a balanced attack and solid system. Although they can all read a defense better than Bledsoe. The flaw in your argument though is they all played for different Co-ordinators.

[Ickybaluky]

There is little doubt that Brady has benefitted from a good situation. Just like Montana did. Just like Peyton Manning did (and his father didn't).

However, consider this:

Bill Belichick's record without Brady at QB is 52-62 (0.456). He made the playoffs once, going 1-1.

Bill Belichick's record with Brady at QB is 90-26 (0.776). He made the playoffs 6 times, going 14-3 with 3 Superbowl victories.

I would say both sides are better for the relationship.

[Ickybaluky]

I watched Bledsoes comeback game against the Chiefs last week. That guy has a top 10 arm in NFL history. His arm belongs in the same sentence with Peyton Manning and Marino... West Coast QB's like Brady, Cassell and Orton need a balanced attack and solid system. Although they can all read a defense better than Bledsoe. The flaw in your argument though is they all played for different Co-ordinators.

Bledsoe did have a great arm, better than anyone you mentioned other than Marino. You are wrong about Manning, who has a live arm but more along the lines of Brady. Actually, arm strength was one of the knocks on Manning coming out of college, believe it or not. It certainly isn't top-10 all time. That list would have a lot of crappy QBs on it.

However, Bledsoe couldn't play QB nearly as well as Marino, Brady or Manning. The "arm" is only one aspect of QB play, and not even the most important one. Bledsoe wasn't really great in any other area of QB play. Comparing him to those others is laughable.

[justasportsfan]

Orton is riding the waves of a solid defense and mistake free play by the players around him. His offensive line is holding up when he really needs it to. Orton is garbage, but his team is making him look good.
you don't play mistake free if you're garbage.

[HAMMER]

Oy Vey, the ignorance is astounding.

[Philagape]

It's ALWAYS just you.

[Prov401]

Orton is riding the waves of a solid defense and mistake free play by the players around him. His offensive line is holding up when he really needs it to. Orton is garbage, but his team is making him look good.

I'd have to politley disagree with you there. Kyle Orton has always seemed to win games, even with Chicago. He doesn't have a gifted arm like Favre or anybody, but he is accurate and most of all, mistake free. Like Cutler is finding out now, Chicago needs to add a few recievers because the QB there seems to always have to play like superman to get a win. The Bears rely too much on their QB.

To the original post. Tom Brady is and will go down as one of the greatest QB's of all time. Not because of coaching. He has all of the tools, and arguably the best decision making skills a QB has ever possessed. He reads the field as if he were reading a Dr. Suess nursery rhyme to his kids. We are truly watching two of the greatest QB's that will ever live in our lifetime (Manning, Brady).

[The King]

Bledsoe did have a great arm, better than anyone you mentioned other than Marino. You are wrong about Manning, who has a live arm but more along the lines of Brady. Actually, arm strength was one of the knocks on Manning coming out of college, believe it or not. It certainly isn't top-10 all time. That list would have a lot of crappy QBs on it.

However, Bledsoe couldn't play QB nearly as well as Marino, Brady or Manning. The "arm" is only one aspect of QB play, and not even the most important one. Bledsoe wasn't really great in any other area of QB play. Comparing him to those others is laughable.I dont know if I would say the comparison is laughable, they were all productive QB's in the league. But Bledsoe ability to read defenses and make plays with his feet are certainly not on par with the other guys. However like you said there really are not many QB's active today who can throw the football the way he did. When I was watching that game last week, I was almost in shock, you just dont see that down field attack that often anymore.

[Ickybaluky]

I dont know if I would say the comparison is laughable, they were all productive QB's in the league. But Bledsoe ability to read defenses and make plays with his feet are certainly not on par with the other guys. However like you said there really are not many QB's active today who can throw the football the way he did. When I was watching that game last week, I was almost in shock, you just dont see that down field attack that often anymore.

I think Bledsoe's comparables are Jim Everett and Vinny Testaverde. Kerry Collins is another that comes to mind.

Good QB, but far from great. Certainly not to be used in a sentence with the likes of Marino, Manning or Brady.

[Owen DeBoard]

Bledsoe did have a great arm, better than anyone you mentioned other than Marino. You are wrong about Manning, who has a live arm but more along the lines of Brady. Actually, arm strength was one of the knocks on Manning coming out of college, believe it or not. It certainly isn't top-10 all time. That list would have a lot of crappy QBs on it.

However, Bledsoe couldn't play QB nearly as well as Marino, Brady or Manning. The "arm" is only one aspect of QB play, and not even the most important one. Bledsoe wasn't really great in any other area of QB play. Comparing him to those others is laughable.
Manning can hit any throw on the field and is the most accurate qb in the league. How many times have you seen him overthrow a WR that is wide open? Now Brady on the other hand Ive seen him overthrow Moss quite often. Brady is lucky that he has WRs like Welker and Faulk that he can throw the short pass to and those guys get a ton of yards after the catch. You put Brady on the Rams, Bucs, and Chiefs and he dont have the same play as Manning would. That is why Manning is the best qb in the league and has been for the last 5 yrs.

[Ickybaluky]

Manning can hit any throw on the field and is the most accurate qb in the league. How many times have you seen him overthrow a WR that is wide open? Now Brady on the other hand Ive seen him overthrow Moss quite often. Brady is lucky that he has WRs like Welker and Faulk that he can throw the short pass to and those guys get a ton of yards after the catch. You put Brady on the Rams, Bucs, and Chiefs and he dont have the same play as Manning would. That is why Manning is the best qb in the league and has been for the last 5 yrs.

Manning has played with better players for the bulk of his career. Yeah, Moss and Welker are great players, but Manning played with Marshall Faulk, Edgerrin James, Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Brandon Stokely, Bernard Pollard, Joe Addai, Dallas Clark, et. al.

Taking nothing away from Manning, because he is an all-time great, but you can't make the argument that Brady was made by the players around him while not acknowledging the great players Manning has played with.

Brady was playing with the Antowain Smith's, Deion Branch's and David Givens and still performing at a high level and winning. When he finally got guys like Moss and Welker, he put up historic, unprecedented numbers.

Also, the Brady of this year his missed some throws, but compare him to Manning's early season from a year ago when he was recovering from his knee injury and you will see Manning wasn't performing to his standard as well. It takes time with injuries.

Brady and Manning are both great QBs, among the best ever. However, the fact you acknowledge Manning's greatness while not giving Brady and credit for his play shows your bias. The only real difference is Manning has played the majority of his games in domes, so he hasn't had to deal with weather to the same degree as Brady.

[BuffaloRanger]

Coaching and supporting cast make a huge difference early in a QBs career. 2009Brady would be still great in the Bills offense today. But he never would have been great if he was a rookie QB for the Bills today.


Brady was brought along very slowly. Winning the SB gave him confidence. He was strictly a game manager in his first year. In his first SB he didn't throw a pass that that traveled more then 5 yards downfield. Unless you count the play on the last drive that he threw it away. Intentional grounding. Of course it wasn't called.

Watch a replay of that game and you will see that the refs did everything they could to give that game to the Pats. Warner got clubbed in the head on his interception returned for a TD. Faulk was held on almost every pass play. The announcers played along. Replay were rarely shown to the TV audience.

Rothlisberger won a SB ring though he had the worst numbers of any winnng QB ever. Since then he has actually excelled and basically will his team to win.

I will always hate Brady. But he does make it look easy. His WRs are always wide open. I remember Bills games were nobody would be within 5 yards of Moss. How does that happen? I always wondered if the Pats found a way to to have a coach talk to Brady from the booth during the play on a different frequency. How hard would that be to setup? Not as hard as detecting it.

[DraftBoy]

Brady is the best in the business, imo. Manning is 1B.

[TheBrownBear]

Worst thread ever. Brady is a one of the greatest players in NFL history. And Bledsoe didn't put up his best years under Belicheck, so what's the point of using him in your argument.

[The King]

Brady's deep ball is laughable. He checks down far too often to be considered a better passer than Manning.

What Brady can do better than Manning is read the defense and find the best matchup, but with two minutes to go in a game I want Manning.

[Ickybaluky]

Brady's deep ball is laughable. He checks down far too often to be considered a better passer than Manning.

What Brady can do better than Manning is read the defense and find the best matchup, but with two minutes to go in a game I want Manning.

Throwing deep is a function of having an OL that can protect and a WR that can get deep. Brady may have "checked down" a lot early in his career, but he did so because that is the talent he had to work with. He did what was required to win the game. He is a "check down" QB the same way Joe Montana was, which is to say he did whatever was required to win the game. In 2007, when Moss joined the Pats, Brady was great at throwing deep until late in the year, when teams refused to allow those plays. Why throw deep if teams are playing cover-2 or cover-3 to take that away? Neither Manning or Brady do that, because it would be bad quarterbacking.

The reality is, very few of Manning's or Brady's throws are "deep". The thing that makes both those guys great is their throwing the intermediate throws. Both make those throws with accuracy and velocity.

Calling Manning better with 2 minutes in the game is laughable, IMO. Brady is one of the most clutch QBs in NFL history. It is interesting, for all Manning's numbers, he hasn't won as consistently as Brady when it counts. Manning makes more big plays, but Brady doesn't make mistakes. Brady is an assassin, killing you in different ways, which is why he wins.

If you ask me, the defining performance of Brady's career was not 2007, but 2006. He was surrounded by players who really didn't belong on the field with him. Reche Caldwell was the team's leading receiver. After that, there were guys like Ben Watson, and aging Troy Brown and Jabar Gaffney. That team had zero big-play threats. None. Yet, they ended up in the AFC Championship game and within a late game 3rd down conversion of the Super Bowl. Just an amazing performance, and I'm not sure any other QB could have done as well.

[Dozerdog]

Brady's deep ball is laughable. He checks down far too often to be considered a better passer than Manning.

What Brady can do better than Manning is read the defense and find the best matchup, but with two minutes to go in a game I want Manning.

Brady threw what, 50 TDs in a season? Last week he had what, 5 in 10 minutes?

Who gives a **** about his deep ball

[The King]

I dont deny we're comparing the top two passers in the league. I am just saying I think Manning is the better of the two.

Brady makes less mistakes... no question. He also takes less risks, I guess it depends what you like in a QB.

Clearly you guys disagree thats fine.

[Mr. Pink]

Tom Brady is the best QB I've seen play in my life not named John Elway.

You're nuts to even start this topic.

[Prov401]

Brady's deep ball is laughable. He checks down far too often to be considered a better passer than Manning.

What Brady can do better than Manning is read the defense and find the best matchup, but with two minutes to go in a game I want Manning.

Yea, no. Laughable is an ignorant and, quite frankly a rediculous word to use. Brady can easily throw the ball 60 yards down field, and has done it plenty of times. Not only can he throw deep, he is almost always on point. He is poised, and takes what the defense gives him. If that means the defense is going to play everybody deep and give Brady a 5 yard toss to Faulk, then so be it. That 5 yard toss will end up being a 55 yard gain.

[Ingtar33]

i thought i saw everything,but this thread really has left me speechless...

Brady is one of the greatest QBs to play in the modern age, by every QB stat you can name. The only QB who should be mentioned in the same breath, who is still playing is Payton Manning with Favre a step bellow them both.

Back in 2002, during Brady's 2nd superbowl year, i remember starting a topic on this board saying that we were in for a long decade, because Brady would own us like Montana used to own the NFC West in the 80's. Yes. back then he reminded me of Montana, and frankly, that comparison still stands.

Montana couldn't throw the deep ball either, yet he won and won and won and won.

If the Patriots can get their defense together again, they'll win 2 or more superbowls before the end of Brady's career. With or without his coach.

[DynaPaul]

Man, this thread turned into a real Brady lovefest. Excuse me while I cleanse myself in scalding hot water and throw up.

[EDS]

Brady's deep ball is laughable. He checks down far too often to be considered a better passer than Manning.

What Brady can do better than Manning is read the defense and find the best matchup, but with two minutes to go in a game I want Manning.

You are embarassing yourself. Manning and Brady are two of the best ever.

[YoungEz]

Don't forget Brady Quinn looked amazing with Weiss at ND before going to Cleveland...

[YoungEz]

The back up QB to Brian Griese is the greatest QB of all time...

This is laughable

[PECKERWOOD]

it's prodigy

Or protege.

As in Brady was McDaniel's protege... In which case that statement would be false, because I remember Brady having success under Weis first.

[Mike]

It amazes me that some Bills fans defend the likes of JP Lossman, and other Bills players, and give them 101 excuses while not giving a guy like Brady his due. And by the way, it is so painfully -if your a bills fan- obvious that Brady is great that you would have to be living under a rock not to realize it.

[YardRat]

Most of Manning's early career was tainted by his inability to win in the post-season.

Some of Brady's career is tainted by the fact that Billicheck is a ****ing cheater.

I'd take Montana over both in a heartbeat.

[Owen DeBoard]

Brady threw what, 50 TDs in a season? Last week he had what, 5 in 10 minutes?

Who gives a **** about his deep ball
Brady threw those 50 TDs in one season because they were running up the score to pad his stats that year. The year Manning broke the record for most TDs in one season he wasnt left in the game to run up the score. He was taken out in the 4th quarter. I think Manning would have blown Bradys record out of the water if they would have let him stay in and pad his stats also. As far as the deep ball goes you judge a qb by how well he can make ANY throw on the field. A good qb doesnt need a WR to have YAC yards to make him look great. Im not saying that Brady isnt good dont get me wrong I think he is a good QB but saying he is one of the best ever I think thats a little far fetched IMO.

[Billiever86]

Brady threw those 50 TDs in one season because they were running up the score to pad his stats that year. The year Manning broke the record for most TDs in one season he wasnt left in the game to run up the score. He was taken out in the 4th quarter. I think Manning would have blown Bradys record out of the water if they would have let him stay in and pad his stats also. As far as the deep ball goes you judge a qb by how well he can make ANY throw on the field. A good qb doesnt need a WR to have YAC yards to make him look great. Im not saying that Brady isnt good dont get me wrong I think he is a good QB but saying he is one of the best ever I think thats a little far fetched IMO.

Im on your side pal.....

If you ask me...I feel like if brady had been drafted by another team in this league...he would have probably been out of the league in a few years....

I do feel brady was nothing more than a product of the system....BUT...as the years passed....He did emerge into a really good QB.......HOF...yes....

One of the best ever? No.....I dont put brady with the elite....50 TDs?....how many of those where after the lead was 21 or more?

I actually think peyton manning is the best pure passer in the NFL ever...In all my years...I have never seen someone put the ball in the perfect place so many times in the hardest spots....The league these QBs play in now...is much harder to play than it was in the 80s and early 90s.....

Im taking peyton manning over any other QB ever....the guy is just too smart...and its against complex defenses....in the 80s and early 90s...all they had was man...and cover 2 and 3.....it wasnt very hard to torch a defense as a QB back then....no offense to the greats though...they were great....