Lee Evans Comments on QBs: Interesting

[Mahdi]

http://blogs.buffalobills.com/2009/10/29/evans-on-difference-between-qbs/


I find these comments very telling on his preference of QB. Key phrases such as " Tries to make things happen" and "he has confidence in us on the outside" and "we just try and make plays for him" These lines are very indicative IMO that Lee prefers Fitz. And with the amount of targets Owens has had since Fitz came in I bet Owens feels the same way.

[Beastie Bills]

Well, he preferred JP, so I'm sure he does prefer Fitz as well.

[Beastie Bills]

By the way, if he preferred JP over Trent, he's obviously more concerned with his stats than with winning football games. All JP had to offer was that once or twice a game, he would wing the ball as far as he could, so Lee could try to make a play on it. Trent actually looked like a good QB back then. Way better than JP.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Trent Checks down TOOO QUICKLY EVERY TIME.

[THE END OF ALL DAYS]

both suck and every win this season takes us further away from the ability to draft a real QB

[Night Train]

By the way, if he preferred JP over Trent, he's obviously more concerned with his stats than with winning football games.
Different situation now.

Fitz IS winning football games ( with a ton of help ) and Lee is involved. Edwards WAS losing football games while Lee basically watched.

[yordad]

Well, he preferred JP, so I'm sure he does prefer Fitz as well.What is the correlation?

[justasportsfan]

By the way, if he preferred JP over Trent, he's obviously more concerned with his stats than with winning football games. All JP had to offer was that once or twice a game, he would wing the ball as far as he could, so Lee could try to make a play on it. Trent actually looked like a good QB back then. Way better than JP.

BS, i'd prefer a qb who plays to win rather than the one who plays not to lose too.

[The last buffalo fan]

just win, damn it!!!!! :ill:

[trapezeus]

I see what evans point is. he isn't involved with trent and they were losing games. he didn't even get a chance to catch anything with trent regressing.

However, he also isn't a "cross the field" type receiver. if he was, he'd get more balls thrown to him. He'd be a true number 1. Andre and Moulds ran across the middle and made long plays after catching short passes.

It's on trent for regressing, but where was evans on those crossing patterns? he's a one trick pony just as much as edwards and losman are a one trick pony.

[yordad]

I see what evans point is. he isn't involved with trent and they were losing games. he didn't even get a chance to catch anything with trent regressing.

However, he also isn't a "cross the field" type receiver. if he was, he'd get more balls thrown to him. He'd be a true number 1. Andre and Moulds ran across the middle and made long plays after catching short passes.

It's on trent for regressing, but where was evans on those crossing patterns? he's a one trick pony just as much as edwards and losman are a one trick pony.then I guess TO in a zero trick pony? Oh wait he is actually one of the best in history at what you describe yet he hasn't been hit by Trent in those patterns either. Sup wit dat?

[trapezeus]

in this offense, on this team, owens is useless. he's gotten very few passes, and has dropped a fair share as well.

We aren't getting receivers in space. and if we do, we don't throw it to them. But Owens runs more varied routes than evans.

The bills consistantly leave these guys on the outside, yet when they make plays they make them on the inside. No one ever seems to learn anything over at one bills drive.

[Ickybaluky]

Different situation now.

Fitz IS winning football games ( with a ton of help ) and Lee is involved. Edwards WAS losing football games while Lee basically watched.

Yet, who is the winning QB?

Fitzpatrick's record as a stater: 5 - 10 - 1 (.344)

Edwards record as a starter: 14 - 15 (.483)

[justasportsfan]

However, he also isn't a "cross the field" type receiver. if he was, he'd get more balls thrown to him. He'd be a true number 1. Andre and Moulds ran across the middle and made long plays after catching short passes.

It's on trent for regressing, but where was evans on those crossing patterns? he's a one trick pony just as much as edwards and losman are a one trick pony.

How do you know that Evans isn't running the route that the coaches are making him run? Evans never had a problem running up the middle up until TO came in. He caught balls anywhere from one yard to 80 yards whether it was outside/ middle of the field on a crossing route.

The very reason why TO was brought in was because they wanted to get the double team off Lee and make TO take the middle and Lee get singl on the outside?


Here's proof he runs up the middle. From right to left or left to right. Some of the catches were even from Trent himself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFnD-qvDTxo

[mybills]

Yet, who is the winning QB?

Fitzpatrick's record as a stater: 5 - 10 - 1 (.344)

Edwards record as a starter: 14 - 15 (.483)
Drew Brees didn't exactly have his current stellar stats when he first played. Now he's with a new team. So, if you really want to go by "stats", wait till Fitz plays as many games in Buffalo as Trent has.

[BillsWin]

Yet, who is the winning QB?

Fitzpatrick's record as a stater: 5 - 10 - 1 (.344)

Edwards record as a starter: 14 - 15 (.483)


Ah, but as a Buffalo Bill, Fitz is 2-0 in games played.

:cheers:

[justasportsfan]

Yet, who is the winning QB?

Fitzpatrick's record as a stater: 5 - 10 - 1 (.344)

Edwards record as a starter: 14 - 15 (.483)

Don't care what he did with other teams. I only care for whoever helps the bills win.

[yordad]

in this offense, on this team, owens is useless. he's gotten very few passes, and has dropped a fair share as well.

We aren't getting receivers in space. and if we do, we don't throw it to them. But Owens runs more varied routes than evans.

The bills consistantly leave these guys on the outside, yet when they make plays they make them on the inside. No one ever seems to learn anything over at one bills drive.Dude, it is simple. Edwards sucks. Why are you acting as if everyone else sucks except him.

[PECKERWOOD]

Yet, who is the winning QB?

Fitzpatrick's record as a stater: 5 - 10 - 1 (.344)

Edwards record as a starter: 14 - 15 (.483)

Plus, in reality, Fitz is only 1-0 on the season. He didn't start the game in which Trent got hurt. So he hasn't won game(s), he has won a gam(e).

[SABURZFAN]

:yawn:


:z:

[Beastie Bills]

Different situation now.

Fitz IS winning football games ( with a ton of help ) and Lee is involved. Edwards WAS losing football games while Lee basically watched.

Not at the time that Trent replaced JP. Back then, Trent actually looked like a real QB.

[ddaryl]

Edwards needs to stretch the field and then his game will become more efficient IMO... he just doesn't take the chances downfield like Fitz has....

Edwards needs to launching 4-5 long balls in a game and he needs to be able to hit a spot and just let the talent at the WR position do the rest.

Once he does that and hits a few the dink and dunk game will open up some and he can have the best of both worlds...

but his indecision on throwing the long ball is killing him and the Bills O.

[Beastie Bills]

What is the correlation?

You know exactly what the correlation is, but I suppose I'll spell it out for you.

If he preferred JP Losman (a terrible quarterback) over Trent Edwards (terrible now, but looked good at the time), then I think it's safe to assume that he would prefer Fitz (a decent quarterback) to Edwards (who refuses to throw the ball to WR's)

[trapezeus]

Dude, it is simple. Edwards sucks. Why are you acting as if everyone else sucks except him.

I' ve said that Trent has regressed and now sucks. But i don't think Evans is all that. he's a great number 2 and owens is clearly no longer a number 1.

WR went from a supposed strength right now to needing some serious help next year if hardy and johnson can't step in.

[justasportsfan]

I' ve said that Trent has regressed and now sucks. But i don't think Evans is all that. he's a great number 2 and owens is clearly no longer a number 1.

WR went from a supposed strength right now to needing some serious help next year if hardy and johnson can't step in.


those are not the wrs fault. The wr's don't throw the ball to themselves.

They are playing for a coach who's offense sucked for majority of his career.

[SABURZFAN]

leave it to snoredad to try and twist things. that Losman loving homo is still bitter that Edwards drove his hero out of the NFL.

[yordad]

I' ve said that Trent has regressed and now sucks. But i don't think Evans is all that. he's a great number 2 and owens is clearly no longer a number 1.

WR went from a supposed strength right now to needing some serious help next year if hardy and johnson can't step in.If we had a Jay Cutler he would be breaking records right now with these WRs. No way can you convince me the WR is not a strength of this team. We can't even manage to get Josh Reed the ball out of the slot.

[trapezeus]

those are not the wrs fault. The wr's don't throw the ball to themselves.

They are playing for a coach who's offense sucked for majority of his career.

i agree. i said in a different thread. Every single player on the offense has changed (with the exception of evans) since 2006. We've even changed the OC 3 times. What more do we need to argue about other than to say, "this is on the coach for being unable to develop an identity and perform up to par."

Evans may be a function of inept coaching, or he may not be the size of receiver who can run across. I couldn't see your link ebcause i'm at work. He has run across a few times. But he's no andre reed.

[Tatonka]

both suck and every win this season takes us further away from the ability to draft a real QB

unfortunately, that is completely true.

[justasportsfan]

i agree. i said in a different thread. Every single player on the offense has changed (with the exception of evans) since 2006. We've even changed the OC 3 times. What more do we need to argue about other than to say, "this is on the coach for being unable to develop an identity and perform up to par."

Evans may be a function of inept coaching, or he may not be the size of receiver who can run across. I couldn't see your link ebcause i'm at work. He has run across a few times. But he's no andre reed.


It's highlights of Lee running cross routes and catching ball up the middle.

I never said he's an Andre Reed. Reed had a JIm Kelly, Thurman, Kent Hull, Lofton , Levy etc.etc..

Evans never even had a Frank Riech.

YOu may be right, maybe Evans is just a great no. 2 but you can say that for sure when he's never had a qb that a decent OC on a yearly basis. If you think about it, how many OC's has he had in his short carreer?

[yordad]

You know exactly what the correlation is, but I suppose I'll spell it out for you.

If he preferred JP Losman (a terrible quarterback) over Trent Edwards (terrible now, but looked good at the time), then I think it's safe to assume that he would prefer Fitz (a decent quarterback) to Edwards (who refuses to throw the ball to WR's)Well perhaps you don't know what correlation means because this replay made no sense at all.

[SABURZFAN]

:yawn:


:z:

[yordad]

Can someone tell SABS that the :yawn: icon is a guy yawning, not giving head, so he can stop using it after all of my post now, lol.

[SABURZFAN]

:yawn:


:z:

[jamze132]

Different situation now.

Fitz IS winning football games ( with a ton of help ) and Lee is involved. Edwards WAS losing football games while Lee basically watched.

Let's not say that Fitz is winning games. Byrd had a huge role in both of Fitz "wins". Without those INTs, I think we lose both of those games.

[yordad]

Let's not say that Fitz is winning games. Byrd had a huge role in both of Fitz "wins". Without those INTs, I think we lose both of those games.Well, couldn't that be said for any win? Its the NFL, it's a team sport.

[trapezeus]

Let's not say that Fitz is winning games. Byrd had a huge role in both of Fitz "wins". Without those INTs, I think we lose both of those games.

Byrd for QB!

[Mahdi]

Yet, who is the winning QB?

Fitzpatrick's record as a stater: 5 - 10 - 1 (.344)

Edwards record as a starter: 14 - 15 (.483)
Yer talking about QBs who have come into the season in completely different positions...

Edwards has come into the year as a starter 2 years in a row and has had over 30 starts....

Fitz has never entered a season as a starter has only 15 starts and looks way better than Trent does.

Yer comparing 2 completely different situations. Trent has been given every opportunity to succeed, and has failed.

[Ickybaluky]

Drew Brees didn't exactly have his current stellar stats when he first played. Now he's with a new team. So, if you really want to go by "stats", wait till Fitz plays as many games in Buffalo as Trent has.

Drew Brees started his 2nd year and threw for over 3,000 yards with over 60% completions and a 17-to-16 TD to Int. You can't compare Fitzpatrick to Brees, Fitzpatrick is below average by about any measure of QB play. He has even sucked in the two recent Bills wins.

Actually, I think Edwards is a better comparable to Brees than Fitzpatrick. Edwards has actual talent.

Seriously, Fitzpatrick? The dude is awful.

[yordad]

Well, I agree Edwards is more talented. But, it doesn't always translate onto the field during a game. Physical talent is only a portion of what a good QB needs.

But, we know this.

[Ickybaluky]

Fitz has never entered a season as a starter has only 15 starts and looks way better than Trent does.

Really?

44.7% Completions
5.1 Yds/Att
65.8 QB Rating
119.5 Yds passing per game.

You should have higher standards. The more Fitzpatrick plays the more he is going to get exposed. You are better off with Hamdan.

[yordad]

Really?

44.7% Completions
5.1 Yds/Att
65.8 QB Rating
119.5 Yds passing per game.

You should have higher standards. The more Fitzpatrick plays the more he is going to get exposed. You are better off with Hamdan.Really? 1.5 games is a big enough sample? .5 of which he came off the bench? 1 of which was vs one of the leagues top pass Ds?

Not to mention, Madhi said "starts". Why don't you check out his rating during his one start. It is at least acceptable (especially by Bills standards).

[Ickybaluky]

Really? 1.5 games is a big enough sample? .5 of which he came off the bench? 1 of which was vs one of the leagues top pass Ds?

Not to mention, Madhi said "starts". Why don't you check out his rating during his one start. It is at least acceptable (especially by Bills standards).

OK, lets take look at a 5-year career sample:

57.4% Completions
5.3 yds/Att
14-to-18 TD-to-Int
66.8 QB Rating.

That is over 5 years with 16 starts. The dude sucks.

[TacklingDummy]

Yet, who is the winning QB?

Fitzpatrick's record as a stater: 5 - 10 - 1 (.344)

Edwards record as a starter: 14 - 15 (.483)
Please do not use facts.

[yordad]

OK, lets take look at a 5-year career sample:

57.4% Completions
5.3 yds/Att
14-to-18 TD-to-Int
66.8 QB Rating.

That is over 5 years with 16 starts. The dude sucks.YEah, I'm not saying he doesn't suck. He does suck. He just probably sucks less then Trent.

[BuffaloBlitz83]

The saddest number.

JP Losman 10-23 Official record in game starts.

33-24 td-int ratio

75.6 rating

Sacked 103 times

59.3 completion percent

[Ickybaluky]

YEah, I'm not saying he doesn't suck. He does suck. He just probably sucks less then Trent.

I disagree with that. I realize Edwards was struggling this year, and I think it probably will be for the best that he gets out of there for a game or two (although I don't think a concussion is the way for that to happen).

However, Edwards has shown promise at times in his career. I think he was put in a tough situation this season and ended up losing confidence. I think he got in a rut mentally.

That said, I think it foolish to give up on him. The Bills offensive issues can't all be placed at his feet, as much as people may want to blame the QB. I still think he gives you a better chance to win than Fitzpatrick, who I think very little of.

[trapezeus]

I disagree with that. I realize Edwards was struggling this year, and I think it probably will be for the best that he gets out of there for a game or two (although I don't think a concussion is the way for that to happen).

However, Edwards has shown promise at times in his career. I think he was put in a tough situation this season and ended up losing confidence. I think he got in a rut mentally.

That said, I think it foolish to give up on him. The Bills offensive issues can't all be placed at his feet, as much as people may want to blame the QB. I still think he gives you a better chance to win than Fitzpatrick, who I think very little of.

i agree, but they've coddled edwards this season and begged him to throw it longer. but nothing. Schonert said the same thing last season, "longer throws are open...take the shots." Now he's on the bench for an injury. When he's ready, we'll see how he responds to being benched.

I agree, he's the better of the two QB's. He has fallen apart, and the coaches seemingly have no answers to put him back together. Fitz magic is going to run out pretty soon.

[Mahdi]

Drew Brees started his 2nd year and threw for over 3,000 yards with over 60% completions and a 17-to-16 TD to Int. You can't compare Fitzpatrick to Brees, Fitzpatrick is below average by about any measure of QB play. He has even sucked in the two recent Bills wins.

Actually, I think Edwards is a better comparable to Brees than Fitzpatrick. Edwards has actual talent.

Seriously, Fitzpatrick? The dude is awful.
Based on his career so far, calling Trent talented is pure speculation, there is absolutely no proof of that.

When a QB's talent is evaluated, it is done on 2 levels, throwing ability and Awareness.

Throwing ability is broken down into 2 parts: Accuracy and Power. Trent has shown he can be an accurate QB in the past so I'll give him that. Although he has not been accurate lately. As for Power, Trent is probably among the bottom 5 in throwing power among starters in the NFL.

When talent evaluators judge a QBs arm, they dont see if he can throw the deep ball 50 yards downfield. They analyze film to see if the QB can make certain throws that he would have to be able to make in the NFL in between defenders and in coverage. Those throws are: The skinny post, the deep slant, the 15-20 yard out route and the deep crossing route. These are the throws that define a QB prospect. Trent has probably hit on maybe 5-10 of these routes in his entire career (30 starts). And many of the times that he attempted to make those throws he was intercepted or incomplete.

The last measure of a QB prospect is Awareness, which includes, pocket presence, defense recognition, the speed at which they scan through progressions and pre-snap adjustments. This is where so many of us think Trent is solid. IMO this is another weakness of his. The fact that he cant find a way to beat a 3-4 defense for the life of him tells me he has a lot of difficulty facing defenses that have a lot of moving parts and pre-snap movements. He clearly gets confused easily and has difficulty adjusting once he drops back to what the defense is doing.

To sum up, Trent IMO has a below average arm, and no better than average QB instincts and awareness.

If Romo was our QB he would be among the league leaders in every QB statistic and both he and Edwards had very similar starts to their careers.

[jamze132]

Well, couldn't that be said for any win? Its the NFL, it's a team sport.
No. Because the Bills suck. If we win a game, it's because some individual stepped up beyond the call of duty.

[BertSquirtgum]

Yet, who is the winning QB?

Fitzpatrick's record as a stater: 5 - 10 - 1 (.344)

Edwards record as a starter: 14 - 15 (.483)

it's understandable that you stick up for trent. you want the bills to lose. you're a patriots fan. so please shut up and stop sticking up for this bum.

[tatersalad]

Trent Checks down TOOO QUICKLY EVERY TIME.

the game hasn't slowed down for him yet he has to have a swivel on his head... the alternative is to have ol' tapper (Bledsoe) with no clock in his head... This is not all edwards fault the o-line is pathetic I would probably be a check down king too

[BertSquirtgum]

the game hasn't slowed down for him yet he has to have a swivel on his head... the alternative is to have ol' tapper (Bledsoe) with no clock in his head... This is not all edwards fault the o-line is pathetic I would probably be a check down king too
have you even watched any of the games? trent has had plenty of time to throw the balls. yet he holds on to it for 6 seconds and probably wonders why he gets sacked. yes, there are time when protection is ****. not every line is perfect on every play. sheit happens

[Jersey1031]

Trent Checks down TOOO QUICKLY EVERY TIME.

wooooooooooow, check out the one and only reference on wikipedia's checkdown page...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Checkdown

[Joe Fo Sho]

Joe's Excitement with Fitz > Joe's Excitement with Edwards

This is the only thing that matters to me.

[Ickybaluky]

it's understandable that you stick up for trent. you want the bills to lose. you're a patriots fan. so please shut up and stop sticking up for this bum.

First of all, I think they are worse with Fitzpatrick by a long shot. Wouldn't I be pushing him then?

Also, I really think Trent has ability. I've watched him a lot since he came in the NFL, and I think he has a lot of ability. I think he still has the injury question to overcome, he has to prove he can stay in the lineup. However, in terms of talent, poise, arm and all the factors you look for in a QB I think he rates high.

Now... I realize he isn't playing well. However, I've seen good QB play poorly before when not in a good situation. I've listed Jim Plunkett before, another Stanford guy. Plunkett was near ruined by the Patriots, but after getting traded and cut the Raiders picked him up, rebuilt his confidence and won with the guy.

I think Edwards can be salvaged. If the Bills run him out of town, I'd love for the Pats to pick him up. You can't have enough good QBs. Just because the guy is playing like crap now doesn't mean he isn't good. IMO, he has shown he can play during his career.

[Ickybaluky]

Based on his career so far, calling Trent talented is pure speculation, there is absolutely no proof of that.

We disagree a great deal on Edwards talent. From what I've seen of his play, I think the kid has a lot of ability. He has good size, poise and accuracy. Yes, I think he has a plus-average arm as well and can make all the NFL throws.

I just think he is struggling in a tough situation and his confidence is down. He is playing like crap. However, I think he has everything he needs to be a good NFL QB and see no reason why he can't be. The one real question I have is his durability. He seems to get hurt every year. That may not be his fault, but you have to play consistently if you want to be an NFL QB.

I keep hearing about how Trent won't throw deep, but if you are going to throw deep you need protection you can count on. I don't think Edwards has confidence to hold the ball because he knows his offensive line might get him killed. I also think the Bills offense, which doesn't do much to disguise what they plan to do, hurts him. The offense is too simple.

If the Bills give up on Edwards I think he will come back to haunt them.

[naugem]

Yet, who is the winning QB?

Fitzpatrick's record as a stater: 5 - 10 - 1 (.344)

Edwards record as a starter: 14 - 15 (.483)

There's another factor to consider: Fitzpatrick has won the last 4 games he has started (not including the Jets game).

He hasn't beaten any good teams, but then again, neither has Edwards in a long time.

[Demon]

Do you guys realize you're arguing about two of the most pathetic QBs in the NFL, and neither of these losers will be in the NFL in 3 years.

[Ickybaluky]

There's another factor to consider: Fitzpatrick has won the last 4 games he has started (not including the Jets game).

He hasn't beaten any good teams, but then again, neither has Edwards in a long time.

None of those 4 "wins" were inconsistent with his crappy play overall. He just happened to be playing crappy teams and his defense won the games. He had 55.6% completions, 129 Yds/Gm and 5.7 Yds/Att in those last 4 wins he started. Granted, I'll give him credit for not turning the ball over in those games, but his play was no different than it was in all those losses he started as well. His defense played better.

I think Edwards could have won the last couple games for the Bills as well. When your defense creates a crapload of turnovers, you don't have to do too much to win.

[justasportsfan]

None of those 4 "wins" were inconsistent with his crappy play overall. He just happened to be playing crappy teams and his defense won the games. He had 55.6% completions, 129 Yds/Gm and 5.7 Yds/Att in those last 4 wins he started. Granted, I'll give him credit for not turning the ball over in those games, but his play was no different than it was in all those losses he started as well. His defense played better.

I think Edwards could have won the last couple games for the Bills as well. When your defense creates a crapload of turnovers, you don't have to do too much to win.
Trent couldn't even be decent vs. the browns.

[Demon]

None of those 4 "wins" were inconsistent with his crappy play overall. He just happened to be playing crappy teams and his defense won the games. He had 55.6% completions, 129 Yds/Gm and 5.7 Yds/Att in those last 4 wins he started. Granted, I'll give him credit for not turning the ball over in those games, but his play was no different than it was in all those losses he started as well. His defense played better.

I think Edwards could have won the last couple games for the Bills as well. When your defense creates a crapload of turnovers, you don't have to do too much to win.

Maybe the Carolina game. Definitely not the Jets game. Fitz took risks and the Evans slant Edwards would never throw. That play has been there often this season and Edwards just doesn't want to risk it. Fitz knows he has nothing to lose, and just throws it. Sooner then later, it will cost him with an incredibly bad game, like 3 INT but give the man some credit where it's due. I think their both junk. I don't think either of them has a future in the sport. But Edwards doesn't help us beat the Jets. There's no way in my mind.

[yordad]

We disagree a great deal on Edwards talent. From what I've seen of his play, I think the kid has a lot of ability. He has good size, poise and accuracy. Yes, I think he has a plus-average arm as well and can make all the NFL throws.

I just think he is struggling in a tough situation and his confidence is down. He is playing like crap. However, I think he has everything he needs to be a good NFL QB and see no reason why he can't be. The one real question I have is his durability. He seems to get hurt every year. That may not be his fault, but you have to play consistently if you want to be an NFL QB.

I keep hearing about how Trent won't throw deep, but if you are going to throw deep you need protection you can count on. I don't think Edwards has confidence to hold the ball because he knows his offensive line might get him killed. I also think the Bills offense, which doesn't do much to disguise what they plan to do, hurts him. The offense is too simple.

If the Bills give up on Edwards I think he will come back to haunt them.Although they are not the greatest talents, I don't think the biggest thing wrong with Trent has anything to with his physical talents. He doesn't have any "grab your face mask and tell you you ran the route wrong" at all. Jim Kelly would have chewed out Bell by now for as many false starts he had. He needs to stop trying to be so likable all the time. I swear he is like a politician. He is literally quoted saying something like "Football isn't everything, but it is a good stepping stone".

He is just not a dominate Buffalo. Who do you think is running Brady's huddle. Or McNabbs. Or Mannings. Or Aaron Rogers. Heck, the younger Manning didn't start having success until he learned to lead a little bit.

That guy has to have everyone's respect. A man's man. As Jim Kelly put it, Trent lacks "fire". He has to start holding people accountable.

But to do that you got to have confidence. And to get the confidence to call out others, you can't be one of the weakest links.

Edwards might be able to kicks Fitz butt in a boxing match, but I'm under the impression that the weak armed Fitz has just a tad bit more field moxie. Not a lot, but just a little bit more. Enough not to be afraid to try the tougher passes.

You can't measure it. Can Trent get it? Sure. But, IMO, he gets to ride the pine until he shows it some. Even if it is as the new guys backup next year.

[JD]

Trent Checks down TOOO QUICKLY EVERY TIME.

When you've got 3 guys constantly in your face because your offensive line is garbage, that'll happen.

[two11ks]

The bottom line is entertainment wise. Fitz is more exciting to watch. I can't wait for Sunday to see the Bills go 3-0 with Fitz.

[Ickybaluky]

He is just not a dominate Buffalo. Who do you think is running Brady's huddle. Or McNabbs. Or Mannings. Or Aaron Rogers. Heck, the younger Manning didn't start having success until he learned to lead a little bit.

That guy has to have everyone's respect. A man's man. As Jim Kelly put it, Trent lacks "fire". He has to start holding people accountable.

That is a fair point, and maybe that is the missing ingredient. Leadership is without doubt a huge part of playing the position, and the QB has to be that guy because he touches the ball every offensive play. I'll defer to Kelly on that, since he obviously knows a lot more than I do about it. I do think there are different ways to lead. There are quieter, cerebral guys who have done well at the position, but they still have to lead. Not every QB is a Kelly. From what I've seen, it isn't a work ethic issue.

I just feel like Edwards really hasn't been put in a good position, so it is a little unfair to throw him under the bus. I think he has shown some promise. There was a point in the middle of last year when he seemed to be ready to take a step and establish himself in the league. He was winning games and his numbers were pretty good, trending up.

Since then, it has gone in the other direction. His record isn't good and his numbers mediocre or worse. He is still the same guy though. He may be struggling, but about a year ago he was being talked about as possibly the next great thing. I don't think he has changed as much as his situation has.

[yordad]

I just want to see him get pissed. Just once. I want to see him throw a complete tantrum. I want to see him poke someone in the chest. I want to see him whip his helmet. Something to show he is putting all his emotion and energy into winning a football game rather then baking cookies.

[Mahdi]

We disagree a great deal on Edwards talent. From what I've seen of his play, I think the kid has a lot of ability. He has good size, poise and accuracy. Yes, I think he has a plus-average arm as well and can make all the NFL throws.

I just think he is struggling in a tough situation and his confidence is down. He is playing like crap. However, I think he has everything he needs to be a good NFL QB and see no reason why he can't be. The one real question I have is his durability. He seems to get hurt every year. That may not be his fault, but you have to play consistently if you want to be an NFL QB.

I keep hearing about how Trent won't throw deep, but if you are going to throw deep you need protection you can count on. I don't think Edwards has confidence to hold the ball because he knows his offensive line might get him killed. I also think the Bills offense, which doesn't do much to disguise what they plan to do, hurts him. The offense is too simple.

If the Bills give up on Edwards I think he will come back to haunt them.
AGAIN... no one cares if Trent throws deep or not... Its about throwing all the other routes that average Qbs throw on a weekly basis. I have already named those routes for you and Trent DOES NOT throw them, whether he has time or not. And the blocking has not been that bad. It has broken down here and there and gotten in the face of our QBs but the protection has definitely been good enough to complete some intermediate routes that everybody and their brother KNOW Trent has not been throwing since he came into the league.

There is a whole facet of Trent's game that is non-existent which is why I'm baffled that you say he has "all the tools" to be a franchise QB when he has not even shown it yet.

How bout you prove it and dig up some highlights of why you believe Trent has the ability. You wont find anything other than some checkdowns and a couple of deep balls, I challenge you to find me some actual difficult routes that Trent has completed.

And please give me more than ONE THROW, 2 YEARS AGO against the Redskins, and 2 throws 2 years ago against the lowly Dolphins.

[Mahdi]

When you've got 3 guys constantly in your face because your offensive line is garbage, that'll happen.
Yeah same thing happens when Trent has 3 or 4 seconds. Dont act like Trent is constantly under fire.

[yordad]

Mahdi, isn't it strange that when he does do it it is like a monumental thing. That pass to Reed in Washington was like a unicorn. We just can't forget it because it is so rare.

[SABURZFAN]

:yawn:


:z:

[Mahdi]

Mahdi, isn't it strange that when he does do it it is like a monumental thing. That pass to Reed in Washington was like a unicorn. We just can't forget it because it is so rare.
LOL. EXACTLY. You think Cowboy fans remember a pass that Romo threw 2 years ago simply because he threw it over the middle. NOOOOO.

Romo does that once a series let alone once a year. For us Bills fans it goes onto the highlight reel of the year and is never forgotten.

[Mahdi]

:yawn:


:z:
Pretty early in the morning for QB talk I guess.

[yordad]

Pretty early in the morning for QB talk I guess.Naw, he just thinks the :yawn: icon is for following me around and opening his mouth wide. He likes me! He really, really likes me!

Ewwwwww

[trapezeus]

i think it would be interesting to know how trent would be if they won that patriots game. aside from mckelvin's fumble, the penalties wiped out 3rd down conversions on decent looking drives.

Same things happened against the bucs and saints. Then it all fell apart. but the checkdowns worked, but then we got into long 3rd downs and he was still checking down alot of the time.

He took some calculated risks this season, but not enough. it seems to me that there was a drastic difference of trent with and without butler.

the most disheartneing thing about fitz is that his stats are actually worse, but they are winning. but i guess that's the difference of making a couple gutsy throws and not attempting them at all.

[yordad]

I'll tell you right now I got yanked for half a game once, and when I went back out I played possessed. It was a huge difference between when you are just trying to do your job compared to having something to prove and trying to make a play.

I felt like I was being told I was the worse player on the field. And it pissed me off.

You run faster. He hit harder. You hit more confident. When you are not afraid to make mistakes is when you are really playing the best you can. I was trying to run people over. All 175 pounds of me.

[Ickybaluky]

AGAIN... no one cares if Trent throws deep or not... Its about throwing all the other routes that average Qbs throw on a weekly basis. I have already named those routes for you and Trent DOES NOT throw them, whether he has time or not. And the blocking has not been that bad.

You are just blaming the QB because the offense isn't performing. That is the easy thing to do, but it doesn't always make sense. I've watched Edwards since he came into the NFL, and he can make all the throws. He has performed well in the past. You are never going to recognize that because you are mad about your team struggling and are looking for a scapegoat. You are picking the wrong guy, though.

The single best indicator of how good a job a QB is doing getting the ball downfield is Yds/Att. Whether you are throwing deep or short, Yds/Att tell you if a QB is doing his job.

That is a big reason why I think Fitzpatrick sucks. Not only is he not as accurate as he could be, but his Yds/Att is dreadful. For all people are excited about Fitzpatrick being in there for Edwards, his 5.1 Yds/Att would be 35th in the NFL, ahead of only Derek Anderson.

Edwards hasn't played well overall, and his Yds/Att is down this year. Still, his Yds/Att of 6.4 is much better than Fitzpatrick. He actually started the year pretty good, but then hit a wall and he really struggled. I don't deny that he has played poorly, but to me he is the QB he was through week 2, not the guy of the last few games. Last year, Edwards Yds/Att was pretty good, 7.2. That is respectable, and one has to wonder what changed?

Edwards is not the problem with the Buffalo offense. His poor play is a symptom of the problem. If you run him out of town and gets with the right team, he is going to play another dozen years in the NFL, and you are going to have to watch him play and wonder why you got rid of him.

[Mahdi]

You are just blaming the QB because the offense isn't performing. That is the easy thing to do, but it doesn't always make sense. I've watched Edwards since he came into the NFL, and he can make all the throws. He has performed well in the past. You are never going to recognize that because you are mad about your team struggling and are looking for a scapegoat. You are picking the wrong guy, though.

The single best indicator of how good a job a QB is doing getting the ball downfield is Yds/Att. Whether you are throwing deep or short, Yds/Att tell you if a QB is doing his job.

That is a big reason why I think Fitzpatrick sucks. Not only is he not as accurate as he could be, but his Yds/Att is dreadful. For all people are excited about Fitzpatrick being in there for Edwards, his 5.1 Yds/Att would be 35th in the NFL, ahead of only Derek Anderson.

Edwards hasn't played well overall, and his Yds/Att is down this year. Still, his Yds/Att of 6.4 is much better than Fitzpatrick. He actually started the year pretty good, but then hit a wall and he really struggled. I don't deny that he has played poorly, but to me he is the QB he was through week 2, not the guy of the last few games. Last year, Edwards Yds/Att was pretty good, 7.2. That is respectable, and one has to wonder what changed?

Edwards is not the problem with the Buffalo offense. His poor play is a symptom of the problem. If you run him out of town and gets with the right team, he is going to play another dozen years in the NFL, and you are going to have to watch him play and wonder why you got rid of him.
Actually no. Im not an emotional fan that just looks for a scape-goat. I watch and analyze and make decisions based on the evidence in front of me. And you keep claiming that Edwards can make all the throws yet he has not done it. You have faith that Edwards can make all the throws but he has not PROVEN that. Which is why IMO he can't do it. He has not done it with anything even close to consistently for the 3 years he has been here.

And the QB is never the symptom of an offense. He is the key to an offense, if he is good, the offense will perform, if he is not, the offense will struggle.

Edwards has had pressure but not so much that he cannot execute. Aaron Rodgers has been pressured all year and he continues to make EVERY THROW and put points on the board.

And if you watch the Pats and Bucs games closely, play for play, Edwards didn't do anything more than what an average QB would do.

He hit the short game and ran a few screens that caught the Pats off guard. Made no tough throws. Same with the Bucs game. He hit a couple bombs and the rest was short.

WHERE IS THE MIDDLE OF THE FIELD??? Doesn't exist for Trent, which is why I challenged you to find me highlights of Trent making throws over the intermediate middle.

[mybills]

Drew Brees started his 2nd year and threw for over 3,000 yards with over 60% completions and a 17-to-16 TD to Int. You can't compare Fitzpatrick to Brees, Fitzpatrick is below average by about any measure of QB play. He has even sucked in the two recent Bills wins.

Actually, I think Edwards is a better comparable to Brees than Fitzpatrick. Edwards has actual talent.

Seriously, Fitzpatrick? The dude is awful.
You totally missed the point here. I'm not comparing Brees to Fitz in any form other than that they both play different on different teams. Fitz looked worse in Cincy, just like Brees looked worse in his first year, compared to his second.
Edwards is scared of his own shadow. That won't change no matter how much you like him.

[Ickybaluky]

WHERE IS THE MIDDLE OF THE FIELD??? Doesn't exist for Trent, which is why I challenged you to find me highlights of Trent making throws over the intermediate middle.

Right, let me consult my video library and get back to you.

Look, I've seen the guy make plenty of throws. I don't see his arm being a limitation at all. I understand you don't like him. I know he played well in the opener this season.

We disagree. We will see.

[Ickybaluky]

You totally missed the point here. I'm not comparing Brees to Fitz in any form other than that they both play different on different teams. Fitz looked worse in Cincy, just like Brees looked worse in his first year, compared to his second.
Edwards is scared of his own shadow. That won't change no matter how much you like him.

I disagree Edwards is scared. I think he lacks confidence in his offense, but he isn't scared.ick

Also, Fitzpatrick looked terrible in St. Louis, Cincy and Buffalo. He has been consistently terrible. Even when he first played, Brees has played better than Fitzpatrick and his paltry 5.3 career Yds/Att.

[Mahdi]

I disagree Edwards is scared. I think he lacks confidence in his offense, but he isn't scared.ick

Also, Fitzpatrick looked terrible in St. Louis, Cincy and Buffalo. He has been consistently terrible. Even when he first played, Brees has played better than Fitzpatrick and his paltry 5.3 career Yds/Att.
He lacks confidence in his offense???

The QB is the one that is supposed to inspire the offense to be better, not feed off them.

If this is the case then I am even more adamant about not wanting Edwards as the starter.

Gimme a break, this guy has 2 solid RBs that will run through a wall for a yard, 2 top end WRs and an athletic TE in Nelson and he has NO CONFIDENCE IN THEM???

Look what Rodgers does with his offense that get him sacked once a series, look what Romo does to WRs like Miles Austin, he makes THEM look great, not the other way around.

Edwards needs to man up and play football or get out and use his Stanford education.

[yordad]

NE39, how about you give Fitz this one full game as a Bill. Lets look at this one game, and compare it side by side vs Trents year. Do yards/per pass, and passer rating, and field presence. If Fitz performs worse in this one game then Trent has this year, then I am all for Trent stating the rest of the year.

But, if he out performs Trent with noticeably less athletic skill, then something is surely internally wrong with Trent, and it can be concluded Trent is the weak link.

I mean, if even a crappy QB like Fitz can do damage in this game, with this offensive line, then Trent must really really suck.

I am convinced Fitz sucks. But, I also think he will perform better then Edwards has.

[Griff]

Different situation now.

Fitz IS winning football games ( with a ton of help ) and Lee is involved. Edwards WAS losing football games while Lee basically watched.

rofl Fitz isn't winning anything, he just happens to be the QB on the field when our secondary went sick house.

[djjimkelly]

this organization has no clue when it comes to qbs

nothing more needs to be said

[Ickybaluky]

He lacks confidence in his offense???

The QB is the one that is supposed to inspire the offense to be better, not feed off them.

The situation is dreadful, though. The OL has been a mess and they do very little to hep the QB. They don't vary their formations much and they don't use motion a lot. I don't know how a QB could feel confident.

[justasportsfan]

When you've got 3 guys constantly in your face because your offensive line is garbage, that'll happen.
Fitz sure doesn't checkdown right away with the same OL.

[yordad]

rofl Fitz isn't winning anything, he just happens to be the QB on the field when our secondary went sick house.
1000 zbs says in this weekends game Fitz beats Trent's season (thus far) average for yards per attempt.

1000 zbs says that in this weekends game Fitz beats Trent's season (thus far) passer rating.

[Ickybaluky]

NE39, how about you give Fitz this one full game as a Bill. Lets look at this one game, and compare it side by side vs Trents year. Do yards/per pass, and passer rating, and field presence. If Fitz performs worse in this one game then Trent has this year, then I am all for Trent stating the rest of the year.

I think it fair to judge Fitzpatrick on his play as a Bill moving forward. I will give him credit for one thing, he has cut way back on his mistakes as his gained experience. Late in the year with Cincy and his first couple games as a Bill he has not turned the ball over or made a lot of negative play. I just don't think he did much positive either.

There is not question Edwards was struggling in the few games prior to Fitzpatrick taking over, but I'm not so sure that they wouldn't have won against the Jets and Carolina anyway. I think their defensive play would have made the difference with Edwards at QB as well. This coming game against Houston is a very big game. They have a good offense, so the Bills will probably need to throw the ball some to win (unless the weather makes it impossible). Playing at home, they need this game.

If Fitzpatrick plays well, I'll give him credit. I've been wrong before, like when I thought Tim Rattay was going to be a decent QB. He is now backing up J.P. Losman, so it shows you what I know.

[yordad]

I think it fair to judge Fitzpatrick on his play as a Bill moving forward. I will give him credit for one thing, he has cut way back on his mistakes as his gained experience. Late in the year with Cincy and his first couple games as a Bill he has not turned the ball over or made a lot of negative play. I just don't think he did much positive either.

There is not question Edwards was struggling in the few games prior to Fitzpatrick taking over, but I'm not so sure that they wouldn't have won against the Jets and Carolina anyway. I think their defensive play would have made the difference with Edwards at QB as well. This coming game against Houston is a very big game. They have a good offense, so the Bills will probably need to throw the ball some to win (unless the weather makes it impossible). Playing at home, they need this game.

If Fitzpatrick plays well, I'll give him credit. I've been wrong before, like when I thought Tim Rattay was going to be a decent QB. He is now backing up J.P. Losman, so it shows you what I know.Ouch, yeah, that weather isn't supposed to be too nice. Maybe it will get Griff to bite though.

[justasportsfan]

I think he lacks confidence in his offense, but he isn't scared.ick

Also, Fitzpatrick looked terrible in St. Louis, Cincy and Buffalo. He has been consistently terrible. Even when he first played, Brees has played better than Fitzpatrick and his paltry 5.3 career Yds/Att.


I don't care if he lacks confidence in his O. He still has to keep trying no matter what or take charge and take the lead. If he can't do that he needs to sit his arse down till he grows a pair.

[Ickybaluky]

Ouch, yeah, that weather isn't supposed to be too nice. Maybe it will get Griff to bite though.

Well, the weather will be the same for both teams. Also, I don't think snow or rain hurt the passing game as much as people think, it may even provide some advantage because slippery conditions make it hard for the defense to react.

Wind would be a big factor, though.

[Mahdi]

The situation is dreadful, though. The OL has been a mess and they do very little to hep the QB. They don't vary their formations much and they don't use motion a lot. I don't know how a QB could feel confident.
Poor guy, they dont motion or very formations.

Not every offense does a lot of motioning. Throw the ball to the ppl that catch it. That is Qbing.

[Ickybaluky]

Poor guy, they dont motion or very formations.

Not every offense does a lot of motioning. Throw the ball to the ppl that catch it. That is Qbing.

If you are going to do that, you need great personnel. If you are going to just line up and play, you need great players. The Bills don't really have that, other than maybe Evans and Owens.

A big part of the reason the Bills are very simple on offense is the inexperience on the OL. However, whatever the reason it isn't a very QB-friendly offense.

You can dismiss that, but it is a factor.

[mayotm]

If you are going to do that, you need great personnel. If you are going to just line up and play, you need great players. The Bills don't really have that, other than maybe Evans and Owens.

A big part of the reason the Bills are very simple on offense is the inexperience on the OL. However, whatever the reason it isn't a very QB-friendly offense.

You can dismiss that, but it is a factor.Your points are far too rational for many to comprehend.

[yordad]

Well, the weather will be the same for both teams. Also, I don't think snow or rain hurt the passing game as much as people think, it may even provide some advantage because slippery conditions make it hard for the defense to react.

Wind would be a big factor, though.I didn't offer to bet based on score, but rather ypa, and passer rating.

[Philagape]

There's plenty to criticize Edwards for. His timidity is unacceptable, and he still hasn't shown he can read a coverage-heavy 3-4.
But there's no need for revisionist history. To say he's never been an intermediate passer is ridiculous.
Mahdi, your memory is either very bad or very selective.
Remember when I showed you his pass-distance splits from last year, and you wouldn't believe me because you didn't read the chart right?
http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?p=2750867&highlight=splits#post2750867
Here's a reminder: Last year he attempted 77 passes in the 11-to-20 range (that's BALL IN THE AIR from the LOS) and completed 46. In the 21-30 range (BALL IN THE AIR), he was 9-for-19.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/splits?playerId=10536&sYear=2008
As a rookie, he went 28-for-62 on passes that went between 11 and 30 yards in the air from the LOS.
Here are some videos. The yardages I listed are from the LOS to the receiver. I didn't include the simple bombs.

2008 vs. Seattle, Edwards highlight video
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2008090702/2008/REG1/seahawks@bills#tab:watch
:22 in ... 21-yard out to Reed
:54 in ... 30-yard post to Royal for TD

2008 vs. Jax, Edwards highlight video
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2008091403/2008/REG2/bills@jaguars#tab:watch
:10 in ... 18-yarder to Evans
1:01 in ... 34-yard deep corner to Evans under pressure

2008 vs. Oakland, game highlights
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2008092101/2008/REG3/raiders@bills/watch#watch
1:43 in ... 22-yard pass to Reed
Next play, 14-yard out to Parrish for TD under heavy pressure

2008 vs. St. Louis, the second Edwards highlight video
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2008092809/2008/REG4/bills@rams#tab:watch
33-yarder to Evans

2008 vs. San Diego, Edwards highlights
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2008101900/2008/REG7/chargers@bills#tab:watch
:45 in ... 15-yard in to Evans
1:17 in ... 14-yard slant to Reed

2008 vs. Miami, Evans highlight video
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2008102604/2008/REG8/bills@dolphins#tab:watch
first play ... 15-yarder to Evans with big YAC
1:05 in ... 28-yarder to Evans as he's hit

2008 vs. Jets, Edwards highlights
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2008110200/2008/REG9/jets@bills/watch#watch
1:01 in ... 15-yard out to Parrish
2:13 in ... 18-yarder over the middle to Evans
2:45 in ... 16-yard out to Fine

2008 vs. Kansas City, Edwards highlights
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2008112306/2008/REG12/bills@chiefs#tab:watch
1:06 in ... 21-yard sideline pass to Reed on rollout
1:19 in ... 17-yarder to Royal

2008 vs. Denver, Edwards highlights
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2008122109/2008/REG16/bills@broncos/watch#watch
2:15 in ... 17-yard sideline pass to Reed on rollout

And you want to throw out the Reed pass against the Skins? Here's a perfect slant from that game that Jackson took for a 54-yard gain, 2:38 in ...
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2007120209/2007/REG13/bills@redskins/watch#watch

And those are just the ones I found on video.

Now he's largely stopped doing this (although I remember a 20-yarder to Reed against the Pats that was called back by a Bell penalty).
But to say he's incapable of these throws is outright ignorant. It is absolutely not true. He has the arm, he has the ability. That cannot be credibly disputed. The scouting reports said it, and it's a reason why at one point last year, a lot of people here thought the Bills finally had their QB.
But something went wrong, and he's not the QB he once was. What he doesn't have now is the confidence. Can't be a QB without that.

[Ickybaluky]

That was a great post and I can't disagree with any of it.

I think you get to the heart of the matter, which is how did he go from promising young QB to being run out on a rail in the matter of a year? He is still the same guy, so what happened?

[yordad]

Philigape, 18 % of his passes were thrown behind the line of scrimmage. Only 28 % traveled more then 10 yards. This year only 23.5% of his passes have traveled more the 10 yards, and cold weather hasn't even begun yet.

For comparison, a guy like Cutler, who threw way more passes, threw 37% of his passes over 10 yards last year.

[Philagape]

Philigape, 18 % of his passes were thrown behind the line of scrimmage. Only 28 % traveled more then 10 yards.

For comparison, a guy like Cutler, who threw way more passes, threw 37% of his passes over 10 yards.

Brady's over-10 percentage this year is 29.7. Favre's is 27.6. Of course you'd pick the most reckless guy.
Nobody disputes that he's conservative. I was responding to the wrong idea that all he ever did is checkdowns or bombs, or he's incapable of the intermediates.
Unfortunately, that is what he's practically become now, but it didn't used to be that way.

[yordad]

Oh, BTW, that slant pattern you mentioned really wasn't a "perfect slant". Jackson lined up in the backfield started out and around the line, then cut inside a LB. Not exactly the same as a WR beating his man off the line and Trent hitting the thrown between a CB and a LB. Fitz's last TD pass comes to mind immediately. 1:16 mark (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2009102507/2009/REG7/bills@panthers#tab:watch) or the 2:10 mark of the second vid is even better.

Don't you find it strange that the Bills have one of the best slant receivers in the history of the game and the only slant you can recall Trent throwing to him was intercepted?

[yordad]

Brady's over-10 percentage this year is 29.7. Favre's is 27.6. Of course you'd pick the most reckless guy.
I was responding to the wrong idea that all he ever did is checkdowns or bombs, or he's incapable of the intermediates.
Unfortunately, that is what he's practically become now, but it didn't used to be that way.I picked the guy I want. A young guy with confidence.

I guess I should have just done Fitz '09. 43%!!!!!!!!!!!!

[yordad]

Yes, you heard that right. 42.6% of Fitz's passes this year have been over 10 yards in the air, compared to 23.5% of Trent's passes have been over 10 yards in the air.

[Philagape]

Oh, BTW, that slant pattern you mentioned really wasn't a "perfect slant". Jackson lined up in the backfield started out and around the line, then cut inside a LB. Not exactly the same as a WR beating his man off the line and Trent hitting the thrown between a CB and a LB. Fitz's last TD pass comes to mind immediately. 1:16 mark (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2009102507/2009/REG7/bills@panthers#tab:watch) or the 2:10 mark of the second vid is even better.

It's the same throw, only difference in the throw is it's to the left instead of right. Both hit the receiver in stride, resulting in long YAC

[Philagape]

Yes, you heard that right. 42.6% of Fitz's passes this year have been over 10 yards in the air, compared to 23.5% of Trent's passes have been over 10 yards in the air.

If only he were good at them.
The difference between you and most people is that most people care if the QB is actually good. Your history shows you obviously don't.

[yordad]

It's the same throw, only difference in the throw is it's to the left instead of right. Both hit the receiver in stride, resulting in long YACJackson wasn't fully in stride, and he started out before swinging in. It is not fully a slant.

[yordad]

If only he were good at them.
The difference between you and most people is that most people care if the QB is actually good. Your history shows you obviously don't.He tries them. It shows he is more confident in himself, and more confident in his receivers. And, although his passes weren't all that accurate, it shows the RECEIVERS ARE OPEN! It shows Trent sucks.

Now, comparing the two..... Would you prefer a QB who recognizes a WR is open and tries to throw him the ball, but isn't that good, or a QB who isn't that good and doesn't throw the ball.

[Philagape]

Jackson wasn't fully in stride, and he started out before swinging in. It is not fully a slant.

Who cares what he did before the pass? The discussion is about the throw and where the receiver was when the throw was made! They're the same. And he was in stride. Don't lie.

[Philagape]

He tries them. It shows he is more confident in himself, and more confident in his receivers. And, although his passes weren't all that accurate, it shows the RECEIVERS ARE OPEN! It shows Trent sucks.

Now, comparing the two..... Would you prefer a QB who recognizes a WR is open and tries to throw him the ball, but isn't that good, or a QB who isn't that good and doesn't throw the ball.

I've already said I'm not opposed to starting Fitz over the Trent that's playing now. That's not the notion I was responding to.

[yordad]

Who cares what he did before the pass? The discussion is about the throw and where the receiver was when the throw was made! And he was in stride. Don't lie.Um... hELLO! We are talking about a route. What he did prior to the pass is the only thing that would seem to matter. When people say slant, they mean..

ball snapped
WR breaks in on a 45% angle to the inside
QB catches, plants, and fires
Pass usually gets to WR between outside LB and CB
WR catches on the run

It is bang, bang, bang,

[yordad]

I've already said I'm not opposed to starting Fitz over the Trent that's playing now. That's not the notion I was responding to.What is your argument then? Trent can throw a 3 yard pass to a RB coming out of the back field while 1 on 1 with a LB on a route that is similar to a slant, but not a slant? And that he can preform this feat once a blue moon because he is usually throwing the "pot pass" my midgets football team used to throw to a stationary check down RB in the flat?

[Philagape]

Um... hELLO! We are talking about a route. What he did prior to the pass is the only thing that would seem to matter. We people say slant, the mean..

ball snapped
WR breaks in on a 45% angle
QB catches, plants, and fires
Pass usually gets to WR between outside LB and CB
WR catches on the run

It is bang, bang, bang,

YOU'RE talking about the route. I'm talking about the pass. What he did prior to the pass matters only to you. A great many things matter only to you.
If the discussion were about the receiver, the full route would be relevant.
We're talking about the QB, and the pass. It's the same. He caught it on the run, same angle, just inside the defender. It's the same throw as a WR slant.

[yordad]

Well it is clear as long as you are arguing with me, no matter how week the argument (or how stupid the argument is to begin with), SABURFAN with thank your post like a blind monkey, lol.

[Griff]

Fitz sure doesn't checkdown right away with the same OL.

no he just throws a wild pass.

[yordad]

YOU'RE talking about the route. I'm talking about the pass. What he did prior to the pass matters only to you. A great many things matter only to you.
If the discussion were about the receiver, the full route would be relevant.
We're talking about the QB, and the pass. It's the same. He caught it on the run, same angle, just inside the defender. It's the same throw as a WR slant.Oh, lol, now I am the one bringing up the route on this play? Is this not your quote...



And you want to throw out the Reed pass against the Skins? Here's a perfect slant from that game that Jackson took for a 54-yard gain, 2:38 in ...
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2007120209/2007/REG13/bills@redskins/watch#watch
Keep in mind this is just a portion of your 500 word reply, and I did not make that word bold. You did. It was the only word in your thesis that was bold. YOU were talking about a route.

[Philagape]

Well it is clear as long as you are arguing with me, no matter how week the argument (or how stupid the argument is to begin with), SABURFAN with thank your post like a blind monkey, lol.

Maybe it's because any argument with you is done knowing that everything you say is tainted by JPUFL bitterness and humiliation. Deny it all you want, but you hate Trent because of that, long before his current struggles. You can never talk about him unbiased. Your denials are BS.
No one who thought JPUFL would be a good QB last year is qualified to make an intelligent argument about QBs, or qualified to say what arguments are stupid, because none can ever be as stupid as yours have been for the past two years.
You are disqualified.

[Philagape]

Keep in mind this is just a portion of your 500 word reply, and I did not make that word bold. You did. It was the only word in your thesis that was bold. YOU were talking about a route.

Do you know what the word context means? Seriously, do you even know?
This whole debate, before you responded to a post not directed at you, was about the throws.

[yordad]

Maybe it's because any argument with you is done knowing that everything you say is tainted by JPUFL bitterness and humiliation. Deny it all you want, but you hate Trent because of that, long before his current struggles. You can never talk about him unbiased. Your denials are BS.
No one who thought he would be a good QB last year is qualified to make an intelligent argument about QBs, or qualified to say what arguments are stupid, because none can ever be as stupid as yours have been for the past two years.
You are disqualified.What does JP have to do with this at all? Seems you are the fixated one. Move on dude. It is sad.

Again, I was not against replacing JP, I was against replacing him with Broadway Trent!

[Griff]

1000 zbs says in this weekends game Fitz beats Trent's season (thus far) average for yards per attempt.

1000 zbs says that in this weekends game Fitz beats Trent's season (thus far) passer rating.

1. ROFL for that to happen Fitz would have to get about 10 ypa (based on his average of 23 attempts per game.

2. How about we compare Fitz's first 3 vs Trent's first 3, Trent's rating was 89.3.

[Griff]

What does JP have to do with this at all? Seems you are the fixated one. Move on dude. It is sad.

Again, I was not against replacing JP, I was against replacing him with Broadway Trent!

rofl, liar you talked about JP like he had the cure for cancer.

[Philagape]

What does JP have to do with this at all? Seems you are the fixated one. Move on dude. It is sad.

Again, I was not against replacing JP, I was against replacing him with Broadway Trent!

BS.

[yordad]

Do you know what the word context means? Seriously, do you even know?
This whole debate, before you responded to a post not directed at you, was about the throws.What the heck, now you are trying to say you made that word bold as part of some preconceived riddle? I have to sort though your post, and call up my good friend Plato to find out what you mean. Seems to me you made the word "slant" bold so it had some sort of meaning. I guess I will call in the forensic psychologist in to help me figure out what your post mean.

[yordad]

No one who thought JPUFL would be a good QB last year is qualified to make an intelligent argument about QBs, or qualified to say what arguments are stupid, because none can ever be as stupid as yours have been for the past two years.
You are disqualified.However he who thought we should role with Trent based solely on how he looked poised is the one who deems who is qualified? BTW, what ever happen to that poise?

[yordad]

1. ROFL for that to happen Fitz would have to get about 10 ypa (based on his average of 23 attempts per game.

2. How about we compare Fitz's first 3 vs Trent's first 3, Trent's rating was 89.3.1). You did not comprehend my proposition.

2). What factors would make us take a smaller sample size for Trent? That makes zero sense. If you want to factor in Fitz's last start, I am OK with that.

The point was I am willing to go blind. I will compare Fitz's one non played game, vs the body of Trents season. The stats that make sense to use would be yards per attempt and passer rating.

[LooneyBin]

I expect that if Fitz helps pull off a win against Houston, then there should be no more talk about Edwards at all unless it's the offseason.

We've seen enough of this fiasco with flutie, rj, holcomb, jp. It's getting old.

[Philagape]

However he who thought we should role with Trent based solely on how he looked poised is the one who deems who is qualified? BTW, what ever happen to that poise?

It was and is still the right decision between the choices, and even at the end of last year I wasn't sold on him as the long-term solution.
Like I said, today's Trent is not the same. All I've written today is about current Trent vs. how he used to be.

[yordad]

YOU'RE talking about the route. I'm talking about the pass. What he did prior to the pass matters only to you. A great many things matter only to you.
If the discussion were about the receiver, the full route would be relevant.
We're talking about the QB, and the pass. It's the same. He caught it on the run, same angle, just inside the defender. It's the same throw as a WR slant.You think dropping back and throwing a 2 yard pass to a cutting RB one on one with a LB is the same as catching/planting and throwing a 5-7 yard pass to a WR between a OLB and a CB?

This illustrates my entire point. Of course the dude can throw 7 yards. If you look at just the pass what is it about the pass that is hard? It is about having the confidence to throw it between the two defenders. Having the confidence your WR will shield the CB with his body. It is about leading him, and not throwing it behind him where the CB can make a play for a pic 6.

I mean seriously your like "see he threw the perfect 3 yard pass, this is proof we can use TO to his fullest potential!" :wtf:

[yordad]

All I've written today is about current Trent vs. how he used to be.Really? Your not the one who brought up JP? Your not the one who acted like I should be condemned for being optimistic about our QB in the past?

[Philagape]

I mean seriously your like "see he through the perfect 3 yard pass, this is proof we can use TO to his fullest potential!" :wtf:

3 yards? 2 yards?
You're a liar. You intentionally shorten the pass. You just keep proving your bitterness-fueled bias with lies like that.

[Philagape]

Really? Your not the one who brought up JP? Your not the one who acted like I should be condemned for being optimistic about our QB in the past?

About that QB, yes. That disqualifies your opinions and observations about anything for the rest of your life.

[yordad]

About that QB, yes. That disqualifies your opinions and observations about anything for the rest of your life.Then why are you clinging to my every reply right now?

[yordad]

About that QB, yes. That disqualifies your opinions and observations about anything for the rest of your life.I suppose that also disqualifies all the great football minds who ever drafted a dud QB. :idunno:

[Philagape]

I suppose that also disqualifies all the great football minds who ever drafted a dud QB. :idunno:

If they stuck with him even after consistent sucking in his 5th year, yes.

[Mahdi]

There's plenty to criticize Edwards for. His timidity is unacceptable, and he still hasn't shown he can read a coverage-heavy 3-4.
But there's no need for revisionist history. To say he's never been an intermediate passer is ridiculous.
Mahdi, your memory is either very bad or very selective.
Remember when I showed you his pass-distance splits from last year, and you wouldn't believe me because you didn't read the chart right?
http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?p=2750867&highlight=splits#post2750867
Here's a reminder: Last year he attempted 77 passes in the 11-to-20 range (that's BALL IN THE AIR from the LOS) and completed 46. In the 21-30 range (BALL IN THE AIR), he was 9-for-19.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/splits?playerId=10536&sYear=2008
As a rookie, he went 28-for-62 on passes that went between 11 and 30 yards in the air from the LOS.
Here are some videos. The yardages I listed are from the LOS to the receiver. I didn't include the simple bombs.

2008 vs. Seattle, Edwards highlight video
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2008090702/2008/REG1/seahawks@bills#tab:watch
:22 in ... 21-yard out to Reed
:54 in ... 30-yard post to Royal for TD

2008 vs. Jax, Edwards highlight video
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2008091403/2008/REG2/bills@jaguars#tab:watch
:10 in ... 18-yarder to Evans
1:01 in ... 34-yard deep corner to Evans under pressure

2008 vs. Oakland, game highlights
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2008092101/2008/REG3/raiders@bills/watch#watch
1:43 in ... 22-yard pass to Reed
Next play, 14-yard out to Parrish for TD under heavy pressure

2008 vs. St. Louis, the second Edwards highlight video
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2008092809/2008/REG4/bills@rams#tab:watch
33-yarder to Evans

2008 vs. San Diego, Edwards highlights
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2008101900/2008/REG7/chargers@bills#tab:watch
:45 in ... 15-yard in to Evans
1:17 in ... 14-yard slant to Reed

2008 vs. Miami, Evans highlight video
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2008102604/2008/REG8/bills@dolphins#tab:watch
first play ... 15-yarder to Evans with big YAC
1:05 in ... 28-yarder to Evans as he's hit

2008 vs. Jets, Edwards highlights
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2008110200/2008/REG9/jets@bills/watch#watch
1:01 in ... 15-yard out to Parrish
2:13 in ... 18-yarder over the middle to Evans
2:45 in ... 16-yard out to Fine

2008 vs. Kansas City, Edwards highlights
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2008112306/2008/REG12/bills@chiefs#tab:watch
1:06 in ... 21-yard sideline pass to Reed on rollout
1:19 in ... 17-yarder to Royal

2008 vs. Denver, Edwards highlights
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2008122109/2008/REG16/bills@broncos/watch#watch
2:15 in ... 17-yard sideline pass to Reed on rollout

And you want to throw out the Reed pass against the Skins? Here's a perfect slant from that game that Jackson took for a 54-yard gain, 2:38 in ...
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2007120209/2007/REG13/bills@redskins/watch#watch

And those are just the ones I found on video.

Now he's largely stopped doing this (although I remember a 20-yarder to Reed against the Pats that was called back by a Bell penalty).
But to say he's incapable of these throws is outright ignorant. It is absolutely not true. He has the arm, he has the ability. That cannot be credibly disputed. The scouting reports said it, and it's a reason why at one point last year, a lot of people here thought the Bills finally had their QB.
But something went wrong, and he's not the QB he once was. What he doesn't have now is the confidence. Can't be a QB without that.
Yer only helping prove my point Phil.

You went and found about 10 throws from Trent that he hit on against weak opponents when they were basically wide open to begin with or that area of the field was not well defended.

NE asks what how did Trent go from promising young QB to this? Its simple, he never was promising...

Trent did well last year against who? Seattle, Jacksonville, St.Louis, Oakland, KC and Denver... what do they all have in common? Bad 4-3 defenses, who all had trouble pressuring QBs last year.

Who did he struggle against? Miami, NY, NE, CLE etc. All 3-4 defenses that you have to make tough throws to beat. Throws into coverage, in tight spots.

You showed me highlights of guys that were wandering through open spaces downfield and Trent with 4 seconds to throw was able to connect.

Now, once he goes up against a 3-4, suddenly those spaces are not as wide, the throw is much tougher to complete, he holds on too long and gets sacked. That was Trent in a nutshell for the second half of the season. And that is Trent now. Everyone has exploited Miami's 3-4 defense this year, Trent couldn't make a throw to save his life. And that was apparent so they sent the house at him knowing he wouldn't beat them. And then he takes sacks and our OL is blamed.

Trent has never changed, he has always been the same, the only thing different was our opponents.

[yordad]

If they stuck with him even after consistent sucking in his 5th year, yes.I still had hope. I am a fan. I have hope for Trent now to. Just not a whole lot.

Besides, wasn't I saying you were the one with blind faith about 12 months ago?

[yordad]

3 yards? 2 yards?
You're a liar. You intentionally shorten the pass. You just keep proving your bitterness-fueled bias with lies like that.This is what your argument has been reduced to? :maggie:

[Philagape]

Yer only helping prove my point Phil.

You went and found about 10 throws from Trent that he hit on against weak opponents when they were basically wide open to begin with or that area of the field was not well defended.

NE asks what how did Trent go from promising young QB to this? Its simple, he never was promising...

Trent did well last year against who? Seattle, Jacksonville, St.Louis, Oakland, KC and Denver... what do they all have in common? Bad 4-3 defenses, who all had trouble pressuring QBs last year.

Who did he struggle against? Miami, NY, NE, CLE etc. All 3-4 defenses that you have to make tough throws to beat. Throws into coverage, in tight spots.

You showed me highlights of guys that were wandering through open spaces downfield and Trent with 4 seconds to throw was able to connect.

Now, once he goes up against a 3-4, suddenly those spaces are not as wide, the throw is much tougher to complete, he holds on too long and gets sacked. That was Trent in a nutshell for the second half of the season. And that is Trent now. Everyone has exploited Miami's 3-4 defense this year, Trent couldn't make a throw to save his life. And that was apparent so they sent the house at him knowing he wouldn't beat them. And then he takes sacks and our OL is blamed.

Trent has never changed, he has always been the same, the only thing different was our opponents.

You are a serial exaggerater.

10 throws? I mentioned 18, and added that the splits showed there were many more not on those videos.
Some I linked to against the 3-4s of Miami and the Jets and San Diego.
Some under heavy pressure, like the 34-yarder against Jax and the TD against the Raiders.
All showed intermediate accuracy on a variety of routes, and the receivers were not "wandering through open spaces."

You were talking about "some intermediate routes that everybody and their brother KNOW Trent has not been throwing since he came into the league."
You said, "How bout you prove it and dig up some highlights of why you believe Trent has the ability. You wont find anything other than some checkdowns and a couple of deep balls"
Those points were disproven.

Like I said, there's plenty to bash him for, but exaggerations and untrue rhetoric make you sound like a biased loudmouth instead of a serious analyst.

[trapezeus]

i think one thing to be made is that Trent showed more promise early than any of our other qb's since flutie. but time and time again, our coaching staff was unable to take a rookie who is confident to throw to what is open and get him in a space to trust his receivers.

We've seen other good qb's (not having to be great qbs, but just good qbs) make that jump from college (i only throw to who is open) to the pros (i know my reads, i throw to where people should be). This failure is as much jauron's as it is edwards.

Edwards showed smarts in how to move the sticks, but he needed to do more. And coaches didn't get him there.

As for the utter hatred for Edwards, i'm cool with that. i just don't get yordad's stance that he still had more faith in JP after 5 years of mediocre play vs. 2+ years of trent.

Philagape, keep up the good fight. I see what you are getting at.

[Mahdi]

i think one thing to be made is that Trent showed more promise early than any of our other qb's since flutie. but time and time again, our coaching staff was unable to take a rookie who is confident to throw to what is open and get him in a space to trust his receivers.

We've seen other good qb's (not having to be great qbs, but just good qbs) make that jump from college (i only throw to who is open) to the pros (i know my reads, i throw to where people should be). This failure is as much jauron's as it is edwards.

Edwards showed smarts in how to move the sticks, but he needed to do more. And coaches didn't get him there.

As for the utter hatred for Edwards, i'm cool with that. i just don't get yordad's stance that he still had more faith in JP after 5 years of mediocre play vs. 2+ years of trent.

Philagape, keep up the good fight. I see what you are getting at.
Yeah I kept up the good fight for Losman too. I though it was the line, I thought it was the receivers, i thought it was the TE, I thought it was the OC.

I thought wrong.

At the end of the day a good QB makes things happen. Other QBs have really shown me that you dont have to have everything perfect in order to succeed. Your talent and smarts will take you far if you're a good QB and those deficiencies around the QB wont be as glaring, and then suddenly those deficiencies will no longer exist.

[trapezeus]

Yeah I kept up the good fight for Losman too. I though it was the line, I thought it was the receivers, i thought it was the TE, I thought it was the OC.

I thought wrong.

At the end of the day a good QB makes things happen. Other QBs have really shown me that you dont have to have everything perfect in order to succeed. Your talent and smarts will take you far if you're a good QB and those deficiencies around the QB wont be as glaring, and then suddenly those deficiencies will no longer exist.

that last paragraph, i am 100% behind you on. they got to make it happen, regardless of their situation. What we know now is that Trent is not a superstar, game changer. i think we all kind of knew that from the get go. But he seems like he could be a good game time manager (injuries aside) if he was coached to play out of his comfort space.

something tells me when he checks down, he doesn't like doing it, but that he's also lost. i think of it like an addict. they don't want to be abusing the drugs, but they keep doing it out of habit. i think edwards wants to throw to the intermediate routes, but gets hurried and then out of habit checks down.

It is what it is.

as for losman, i don't remember you, madhi, clamouring for losman the last 2 years. yordad was very vocal about how losman was ok, and he even went to great lengths to defend him in a UFL game. And for what its worth that number 11th ranked passer isnt' even the best ranked passer in the UFL.

[Griff]

1). You did not comprehend my proposition.

2). What factors would make us take a smaller sample size for Trent? That makes zero sense. If you want to factor in Fitz's last start, I am OK with that.

The point was I am willing to go blind. I will compare Fitz's one non played game, vs the body of Trents season. The stats that make sense to use would be yards per attempt and passer rating.

1. oh I see what you're trying to say. dude 6.5 ypa is not very good and Trent has beat that on many, many occasions. Certainly more than Captain Incomplete

2. Um I'm just trying to do a fair comparison, 3 games vs 3 games.

[Griff]

Yeah I kept up the good fight for Losman too. I though it was the line, I thought it was the receivers, i thought it was the TE, I thought it was the OC.

I thought wrong.

At the end of the day a good QB makes things happen. Other QBs have really shown me that you dont have to have everything perfect in order to succeed. Your talent and smarts will take you far if you're a good QB and those deficiencies around the QB wont be as glaring, and then suddenly those deficiencies will no longer exist.

In other words I was willing to blame everybody but JP, but since Edwards took away my darling JP I hate him and blame him and him alone.

[Mahdi]

In other words I was willing to blame everybody but JP, but since Edwards took away my darling JP I hate him and blame him and him alone.
Not at all. I defended JP to a point, then I realized that good QBs make an offense better, not the other way around.

I gave Trent plenty of time to prove he was a franchise QB, I supported him a ton, but this is the NFL. No one gets 5 years to prove themselves anymore. By that time yer best players are old and the rest are going to other teams. Meanwhile yer fan base is annoyed and frustrated.

[SABURZFAN]

Originally Posted by yordad
Well it is clear as long as you are arguing with me, no matter how week the argument (or how stupid the argument is to begin with), SABURFAN with thank your post like a blind monkey, lol.



you sound butt hurt. did it ever occur to you that you REALLY are an idiot who continues to prove me right? i'm not even involved in this argument with you and Philagape and you're trying to drag me into it. you're a ****ing joke. you have tried to twist and turn anything you can with what Philagape has countered with YOUR weak argument. you're the ****ing blind monkey who can't see that you're wrong about this, have been wrong with just about every argument you have with people when it comes to Lossman, and will continue to be wrong about any kind of argument you will ever have trying to defend.

Cease and Desist with the name calling. ~Cntrygal

[yordad]

1. oh I see what you're trying to say. dude 6.5 ypa is not very good and Trent has beat that on many, many occasions. Certainly more than Captain Incomplete

2. Um I'm just trying to do a fair comparison, 3 games vs 3 games.1.) What? I offered to bet based on a comparison. A comparison that utilizes existing data regarding Edwards vs what Fitz accomplishes in his next game. It seems to me if Fitz is indeed auditioning, he is up against Trent's average. I offered to bet that in the next game Fitz's ypa would beat Trent's ypa on the season. If you are so convinced Trent is better, and he would produce more per attempt, then you would be all over this bet.

I also offered to compare passer rating. Passer rating takes it one step further and incorporates TD and Ints into the equation. This stat also makes sense to use because the sample sizes do not need to be equal.

2.) You must not understand the nature of the stats I suggested we use. Refer to "1.)".

:bike:

[yordad]

As for the utter hatred for Edwards, i'm cool with that. i just don't get yordad's stance that he still had more faith in JP after 5 years of mediocre play vs. 2+ years of trent.

Philagape, keep up the good fight. I see what you are getting at.JP has been out of the league for nearly a year, why would I have more faith in him at this point? And, how did you conclude that was my stance?

Also, if you do in fact see what Riddle Phil is getting at, could you please explain it to me?

No one is saying Trent can't throw it over ten yards. No one is saying he cannot physically throw a 5 yard pass to a slanting receiver. Physically 98% of the people posting on this board can do that. It seems to me that Riddle Phil's point is he is physically able to literally throw.

[THE END OF ALL DAYS]

this is sounding like a bunch of 6th graders now

are you guys capable of discussing anything like adults?

[yordad]

In other words I was willing to blame everybody but JP, but since Edwards took away my darling JP I hate him and blame him and him alone.Well, who do you blame now?

[yordad]

as for losman, i don't remember you, madhi, clamouring for losman the last 2 years. yordad was very vocal about how losman was ok, and he even went to great lengths to defend him in a UFL game. And for what its worth that number 11th ranked passer isnt' even the best ranked passer in the UFL.And what is that passer rating?

[Patti120]

:yawn:


:z:


:shoothead:

[acehole]

2-0 starting for Bills...

Good enough.



Yet, who is the winning QB?

Fitzpatrick's record as a stater: 5 - 10 - 1 (.344)

Edwards record as a starter: 14 - 15 (.483)

[justasportsfan]

no he just throws a wild pass.
a wild pass is better than a checkdown for an INT returned for a TD = 7 points for the opponent.

[Meathead]

http://www.1000recordings.com/images/artist-b/blind-faith-108-l.jpg (http://popup.lala.com/popup/432627047858587398)

[SABURZFAN]

a wild pass is better than a checkdown for an INT returned for a TD = 7 points for the opponent.


what happened to your "a wild pass is better than a 3 yard checkdown" comment? did you realize that 3 yards is better than 0 yards? :D

[The Popcorn]

Originally Posted by yordad
Well it is clear as long as you are arguing with me, no matter how week the argument (or how stupid the argument is to begin with), SABURFAN with thank your post like a blind monkey, lol.



you sound butt hurt. did it ever occur to you that you REALLY are an idiot who continues to prove me right? i'm not even involved in this argument with you and Philagape and you're trying to drag me into it. you're a ****ing joke. you have tried to twist and turn anything you can with what Philagape has countered with YOUR weak argument. you're the ****ing blind monkey who can't see that you're wrong about this, have been wrong with just about every argument you have with people when it comes to Lossman, and will continue to be wrong about any kind of argument you will ever have trying to defend.



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!

This yordad guy is a beauty. I laugh at guys like this who hide behind a keyboard and think they're internet tough guys.

[yordad]

Popcorn, your post is idiotic. And your not even old enough to drive.

Oh, and you can stop using the username BuffaloBlitz83 now, the cat is out of the bag.

[justasportsfan]

what happened to your "a wild pass is better than a 3 yard checkdown" comment? did you realize that 3 yards is better than 0 yards? :D O yards? Actually 2 td's to Lee .

I realized Trents INT to TD ratio compared to Fitz's with the same OL , same wr's and with Fitz getting lesser snaps with the first team .

[Ickybaluky]

O yards? Actually 2 td's to Lee .

I realized Trents INT to TD ratio compared to Fitz's with the same OL , same wr's and with Fitz getting lesser snaps with the first team .

I find it ironic you call Edwards "captain checkdown" and then make this comment. It is interesting that both those TDs to Evans were passes where the ball was in the air less than 10 yards beyond the LOS. They were run-after-catch plays.

Also, while Fitzpatrick has thrown downfield more, he has not done it more effectively. For passes that travel 10 or more yards past the LOS, Fitzpatrick is 5-for-20 (25%), 119 Yds (6.0 Yds/Att), 0 TD, 0 Int, 51.9 QB Rating. Edwards, on the other hand was 12-for-36 (33%), 315 Yds (8.8 Yds/Att), 2 TD, 3 Int, 50.1 QB Rating in that same situation. Neither guy has been very effective in those situations, which is probably means it is independent of the QB and is more due to other factors.

[Ickybaluky]

Here is another interesting analysis when comparing the 2 QBs.

Fitzpatrick has led 8 scoring drives since coming in for Edwards:

- 47 Yds (FG)
- 36 Yds (FG)
- 64 Yds (TD)
- 29 Yds (FG)
- 7 Yds (TD)
- 27 Yds (TD)
- 55 Yds (FG)
- 16 Yds (FG)

The average length of those drives is 35.1 Yds.

The average length of his TD drives has been 32.7 Yds.

That just goes to show how much he has benefitted from the Bills creating great field position. The Bills likely would have won both those games with Edwards in there as well, or just about any other QB.

[ServoBillieves]

http://www.1000recordings.com/images/artist-b/blind-faith-108-l.jpg (http://popup.lala.com/popup/432627047858587398)


HEY HEY HEY! No bringing Steve Winwood in to this man! Bad things man! Bad!

[yordad]

I find it ironic you call Edwards "captain checkdown" and then make this comment. It is interesting that both those TDs to Evans were passes where the ball was in the air less than 10 yards beyond the LOS. They were run-after-catch plays.

Also, while Fitzpatrick has thrown downfield more, he has not done it more effectively. For passes that travel 10 or more yards past the LOS, Fitzpatrick is 5-for-20 (25%), 119 Yds (6.0 Yds/Att), 0 TD, 0 Int, 51.9 QB Rating. Edwards, on the other hand was 12-for-36 (33%), 315 Yds (8.8 Yds/Att), 2 TD, 3 Int, 50.1 QB Rating in that same situation. Neither guy has been very effective in those situations, which is probably means it is independent of the QB and is more due to other factors.So, Trent has a 9% chance of throwing and Int when the ball travels more then 10 yards? No wonder he doesn't want to do it.

I think it is ironic you called Fitz's second TD the result of a run after the catch, when it was caught in the endzone. How you could fault him for throwing a short pass when the play started on the 2 yard line?

And that other TD, you mean the slant by Lee? The route Trent never even throws to? On that play Jackson was wide open in the right flat near the LOS, I guarantee you that is where Trent would have thrown it.

Pic Below

[yordad]

http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv235/yordadpics/TDtoLEe.jpg (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/%3Ca%20href=)">http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv235/yordadpics/TDtoLEe.jpg (http://s687.photobucket.com/albums/vv235/yordadpics/?action=view&current=TDtoLEe.jpg)

[justasportsfan]

I find it ironic you call Edwards "captain checkdown" and then make this comment. It is interesting that both those TDs to Evans were passes where the ball was in the air less than 10 yards beyond the LOS. They were run-after-catch plays.

Also, while Fitzpatrick has thrown downfield more, he has not done it more effectively. For passes that travel 10 or more yards past the LOS, Fitzpatrick is 5-for-20 (25%), 119 Yds (6.0 Yds/Att), 0 TD, 0 Int, 51.9 QB Rating. Edwards, on the other hand was 12-for-36 (33%), 315 Yds (8.8 Yds/Att), 2 TD, 3 Int, 50.1 QB Rating in that same situation. Neither guy has been very effective in those situations, which is probably means it is independent of the QB and is more due to other factors.
Difference is Fitz lasers that ball for TD's. I can't remember the last time Trent had the balls to laser anything. The most recent vivid memory of Trent throwing a short pass went for an easy TD after he stared down his target .

I don't expect fitz to be more accurate than Trent since Trent has had more time with the starters. The little that Fitz connected made something positive happened. While not accurate at least fitz's throws ended up with better results than just fg's.
Like you, I think Trent has better potential than Fitz. But until he grows a pair, his potential means nothing. He will eventually get his job back but for as long as we're winning with fitz, I'll take a win over individual nos.

Rob Johnson had better nos. but the team won with flutie.

[thenry20]

By the way, if he preferred JP over Trent, he's obviously more concerned with his stats than with winning football games. All JP had to offer was that once or twice a game, he would wing the ball as far as he could, so Lee could try to make a play on it. Trent actually looked like a good QB back then. Way better than JP.

No, I'm beginning to think TE only cares about his completion % and lack of INT's. Yet, this school of thought has made him a subpar QB in the league. Others, who are less talented are willing to take risks.

You'd think that he would have a near perfect TD conversion record inside the red zone but the stats belie this fact.

[mybills]

Seems to me that the only one throwing Trent under the bus, is Trent himself. He needs to grow a pair and show us he can sit behind the wheel of the bus.

[Griff]

1.) What? I offered to bet based on a comparison. A comparison that utilizes existing data regarding Edwards vs what Fitz accomplishes in his next game. It seems to me if Fitz is indeed auditioning, he is up against Trent's average. I offered to bet that in the next game Fitz's ypa would beat Trent's ypa on the season. If you are so convinced Trent is better, and he would produce more per attempt, then you would be all over this bet.

I also offered to compare passer rating. Passer rating takes it one step further and incorporates TD and Ints into the equation. This stat also makes sense to use because the sample sizes do not need to be equal.

2.) You must not understand the nature of the stats I suggested we use. Refer to "1.)".

:bike:

You've never been a statistician have you? Yeah I can tell because your knowledge of how statistics are used in the real world is laughable.

[Griff]

Well, who do you blame now?

I blamed who I've blamed for the last 3 years, Jauron. Jauron was half the problem with JP, with Trent, with Ftiz, it doesn't matter who the QB is as long as the deadman is the coach.

[Griff]

Difference is Fitz lasers that ball for TD's. I can't remember the last time Trent had the balls to laser anything. The most recent vivid memory of Trent throwing a short pass went for an easy TD after he stared down his target .

I don't expect fitz to be more accurate than Trent since Trent has had more time with the starters. The little that Fitz connected made something positive happened. While not accurate at least fitz's throws ended up with better results than just fg's.
Like you, I think Trent has better potential than Fitz. But until he grows a pair, his potential means nothing. He will eventually get his job back but for as long as we're winning with fitz, I'll take a win over individual nos.

Rob Johnson had better nos. but the team won with flutie.

rofl laser pass and Fitz are two things that should never share a sentence. Flutie won games, he didn't have games won for him.

[SABURZFAN]

You've never been a statistician have you? Yeah I can tell because your knowledge of how statistics are used in the real world is laughable.


passer rating is about one of the useless stats in all of sports too.

[yordad]

You've never been a statistician have you? Yeah I can tell because your knowledge of how statistics are used in the real world is laughable.Real world math is my specialty.

[justasportsfan]

rofl laser pass and Fitz are two things that should never share a sentence. Flutie won games, he didn't have games won for him.


laser or not it's better than that sissy balls trent throws. keep lickin

[Griff]

Real world math is my specialty.
rofl.

[Griff]

laser or not it's better than that sissy balls trent throws. keep lickin

At least Trent doesn't need the defense or special teams to put the ball past midfield for him to have a chance at scoring anything. But you're right I'm a licker for wanting Trent to finish out the season over a career loser and a completely talentless hack.

[yordad]

rofl.Oh, I'm sorry Griff, I guess I should have figured that if you read all of my messages on a message board, then in the end you would know more about me, then me. And more about my education and background then I do.

You are the one that did not understand the nature of those stats. And this is a very strange conversation.

[justasportsfan]

At least Trent doesn't need the defense or special teams to put the ball past midfield for him to have a chance at scoring anything. But you're right I'm a licker for wanting Trent to finish out the season over a career loser and a completely talentless hack.
yeah, he doesn't need to get to midfield to throw a TD for the opponent. Trent has to earn his job back. He should not be the annointed qb until he grows a pair.

[yordad]

BTW Griff, one look at my public profile should be just enough to show you that you underestimate my math and statistic skills. And, I didn't edit it just for you. It has been like that for like 2 years.

[SABURZFAN]

:yawn:


:z:

[Griff]

Oh, I'm sorry Griff, I guess I should have figured that if you read all of my messages on a message board, then in the end you would know more about me, then me. And more about my education and background then I do.

You are the one that did not understand the nature of those stats. And this is a very strange conversation.

rofl I was a statistician in the Air Force.

[Griff]

yeah, he doesn't need to get to midfield to throw a TD for the opponent. Trent has to earn his job back. He should not be the annointed qb until he grows a pair.

right because Fitz earned the job... hypocrisy much?

[Griff]

BTW Griff, one look at my public profile should be just enough to show you that you underestimate my math and statistic skills. And, I didn't edit it just for you. It has been like that for like 2 years.

http://billszone.com/fanzone/customprofilepics/profilepic11501_1.gif
not impressed.

[yordad]

http://billszone.com/fanzone/customprofilepics/profilepic11501_1.gif
not impressed.Like I really want to go out of my way to impress a 16 year old on a message board who has done very little to illustrate his football knowledge at all, and who blames you when he doesn't understand things.

The point of pointing out my profile is you telling me I don't understand real world math (and statistics), and considering I used to be a professional poker player your charge is laughable.

I would also like to add one of my degrees is in this field.

:monkeyp:

If you don't like logic and you don't like my opinions, you can put me on ignore. It is free.

[Ickybaluky]

Edwards is expected to be back after the bye (http://blogs.nfl.com/2009/11/02/bills-edwards-expected-back-after-bye-week/):


Expect to see QB Trent Edwards back on the field for the Bills. And soon.

Edwards, who has missed the last two games after suffering a concussion, is expected back when the Bills return from their bye week, a team source tells NFL Network’s Jason La Canfora. Edwards has been progressing well and performing better in cognitive testing and should resume full practice soon.

[justasportsfan]

right because Fitz earned the job... hypocrisy much?
di i say he earned the job? No trent lost it, Lickin much?

[Griff]

Like I really want to go out of my way to impress a 16 year old on a message board who has done very little to illustrate his football knowledge at all, and who blames you when he doesn't understand things.

The point of pointing out my profile is you telling me I don't understand real world math (and statistics), and considering I used to be a professional poker player your charge is laughable.

I would also like to add one of my degrees is in this field.

:monkeyp:

If you don't like logic and you don't like my opinions, you can put me on ignore. It is free.

Even if I was that young I'd still be twice your mental maturity.

rofl yeah being a poker player really compares to being a statistician.

Oh and obsessing about JP Losman is not logic, is bromance, get over yours.

[Griff]

di i say he earned the job? No trent lost it, Lickin much?

Rofl so Fitz can't lose it, but Trent can... okay, nice to know that hypocrisy is your style of logic.

[yordad]

Even if I was that young I'd still be twice your mental maturity.

rofl yeah being a poker player really compares to being a statistician.

Oh and obsessing about JP Losman is not logic, is bromance, get over yours.Do I really need to be a statistician to have a better understanding than you of how math and stats are used in the "real world"?

You are the one obsessing.

[justasportsfan]

Rofl so Fitz can't lose it, but Trent can... okay, nice to know that hypocrisy is your style of logic.
Fritz isn't winning games for us . He already lost it based on that which is why he isn't the answer either but unlike Trent he isn't losing games for us buy turning the ball over and giving them points. Trent was the starter but right now not losing games for us is a step up for him . Fitz is nothing more than a lesser evil. If you can't understand that then your logic is based on licking.

[SABURZFAN]

at this point, i'm ready to see what Hamdan can do. i honestly think he can't do any worse.

[Griff]

Do I really need to be a statistician to have a better understanding than you of how math and stats are used in the "real world"?

You are the one obsessing.

rofl it would help if maybe you took a few classes, instead of sitting in a bar daydreaming about JP.

[Griff]

Fritz isn't winning games for us . He already lost it based on that which is why he isn't the answer either but unlike Trent he isn't losing games for us buy turning the ball over and giving them points. Trent was the starter but right now not losing games for us is a step up for him . Fitz is nothing more than a lesser evil. If you can't understand that then your logic is based on licking.

Rofl, Fitz would've lost to the Bucs, Trent played well enough to beat the Patriots, or are you going to blame our secondary falling apart and McKelvin's fumble on him too.

[Griff]

at this point, i'm ready to see what Hamdan can do. i honestly think he can't do any worse.

Hamdan unlike Fitz is a viable X factor, we all knew that Fitz wasn't any good going into this season, but Hamdan is like Kurt Warner in '98. I'm not saying he'll turn out to be the Kurt of '99, he could be worse than Fitz, but we'll never know because of Jauron's fear of not playing vets.

[yordad]

rofl it would help if maybe you took a few classes, instead of sitting in a bar daydreaming about JP.One of my degrees us in a related field buddy, so try again, lol.

[Griff]

One of my degrees us in a related field buddy, so try again, lol.

rofl you? degrees? haha now thats just funny, I'd be amazed if you finished high school.

[yordad]

rofl you? degrees? haha now thats just funny, I'd be amazed if you finished high school.Well then you are easily amazed. But I'm not surprised. Being easily amazed likely has a high correlation with low IQ.

[Griff]

Well then you are easily amazed. But I'm not surprised. Being easily amazed likely has a high correlation with low IQ.

142 is low?

[yordad]

142 is low?If you think for a second anyone on this message board believes you have 142 IQ, then you are even dumber then I thought.

:crazy:

[justasportsfan]

Rofl, Fitz would've lost to the Bucs, Trent played well enough to beat the Patriots, or are you going to blame our secondary falling apart and McKelvin's fumble on him too.
woulda, coulda, shloulda. Trent lost the game for us vs. the crappy browns. You have a selective memory because you only like to see what you want to see and thats the good things that Trent has done ignoring the fact that his mistakes outweigh his positives. Then again , thats what a player fan does. He doesn't care about the team losing as long as his player looks good.

[SeatownBillsFan21]

Wow this three is an epic fail

[Griff]

woulda, coulda, shloulda. Trent lost the game for us vs. the crappy browns. You have a selective memory because you only like to see what you want to see and thats the good things that Trent has done ignoring the fact that his mistakes outweigh his positives. Then again , thats what a player fan does. He doesn't care about the team losing as long as his player looks good.

heh, I've actually called Trent bad many times, I guess you're the one with the selective reading issue.

[Griff]

If you think for a second anyone on this message board believes you have 142 IQ, then you are even dumber then I thought.

:crazy:

rofl, I could care less how dumb you think I am, but test results are test results.

[SABURZFAN]

Wow this three is an epic fail

yordad has failed enough for three people.

[yordad]

heh, I've actually called Trent bad many times, I guess you're the one with the selective reading issue.I do have a selective reading issue. I select not to read a majority of your stupid post. :tricycle:

[yordad]

rofl, I could care less how dumb you think I am, but test results are test results.Did your IQ test come back negative? Yormommy would be so proud.

[Griff]

I do have a selective reading issue. I select not to read a majority of your stupid post. :tricycle:

in other words you don't care about what someone actually says just what you perceive them to be saying.

[Griff]

Did your IQ test come back negative? Yormommy would be so proud.

rofl 142 is a positive number, and you said you have degrees.

[yordad]

in other words you don't care about what someone actually says just what you perceive them to be saying.Naw man, I just don't care what you actually say because everything I've read so far has been crapola. :up:

[yordad]

rofl 142 is a positive number, and you said you have degrees.Dude, you don't even know what IQ stands for without goggling it. This is like having a battle of wits with an unarmed man. :king:

[Griff]

Naw man, I just don't care what you actually say because everything I've read so far has been crapola. :up:

yeah I'm the one that was offering to bet that Fitz would suddenly play on a competent level.

[Griff]

Dude, you don't even know what IQ stands for without goggling it. This is like having a battle of wits with an unarmed man. :king:

That joke is so funny but more so the first time I heard it, in 1992. When you get some new material let me know, until then I think I'll pass your next gig at the Chuckle Barn. Oh and next time you try and imply that someone is stupid, you might want to spell check using Google.

[yordad]

yeah I'm the one that was offering to bet that Fitz would suddenly play on a competent level.Who said competent? We were comparing him to Edwards. You are, however, the one who declined the bet. And, although it wasn't complicated, even worse, you couldn't understand it.

:roflmao:

[yordad]

That joke is so funny but more so the first time I heard it, in 1992. When you get some new material let me know, until then I think I'll pass your next gig at the Chuckle Barn. Oh and next time you try and imply that someone is stupid, you might want to spell check using Google.I suppose in your world spelling google is the measure of intelligence. No wonder you scored so well on your make believe IQ test.

[yordad]

You sure that 142 wasn't an SAT?

[Griff]

Who said competent? We were comparing him to Edwards. You are, however, the one who declined the bet. And, although it wasn't complicated, even worse, you couldn't understand it.

:roflmao:

ah now you're just going to lie? I understood it just fine, you thought that Fitz would have better than 6.5 ypa and have a better QB rating than Trent's even though, for someone who claims to know statistics you wanted to use an uneven data pool.

[Griff]

You sure that 142 wasn't an SAT?

yawn.

[yordad]

ah now you're just going to lie? I understood it just fine, you thought that Fitz would have better than 6.5 ypa and have a better QB rating than Trent's even though, for someone who claims to know statistics you wanted to use an uneven data pool.YPA and PASSER rating do not require an even data pool stat boy, lol. I know it must be complicated for you, just try your best.

[Griff]

YPA and PASSER rating do not require an even data pool stat boy, lol. I know it must be complicated for you, just try your best.

to compare two things in a statistical fashion the data must be equal.

If I did a poll that asked if you preferred apples or oranges, and polled 100 Americans, and 60 said apples. That wouldn't be as accurate as an indicator for Americans as a whole as polling one million Americans. So yes, comparing one game of data vs 5 games of data is yes bad statistics. Just like comparing 3 games to 5 games.

[yordad]

to compare two things in a statistical fashion the data must be equal.

If I did a poll that asked if you preferred apples or oranges, and polled 100 Americans, and 60 said apples. That wouldn't be as accurate as an indicator for Americans as a whole as polling one million Americans. So yes, comparing one game of data vs 5 games of data is yes bad statistics. Just like comparing 3 games to 5 games.The simple fact that you think this is proof that you don't understand.

Obviously the bigger the sample the more can be learned from it, but when comparing averages, the sample size does not have to be equal.

Its cool dude. I don't care if you understand. I guess it is beyond your grasp. I am sure you are good at something else though. Maybe try bowling.

[SABURZFAN]

:yawn:


:z:

[Typ0]

I had to delve back and see what was going on here. Apparently, yordad has offered up a bet to Griff that Fitz would have a better YPA in the next ONE GAME than TE has the entire season. He's gone on and on about how this is a valid method of comparison.

And then yordad went on to proclaim that real world math was his forte.

The world is in serious trouble if yordad is going our statistical analysis.

[yordad]

You act as if I said it was somehow undeniable proof that Fitz is better. Typo are you trying to say you didn't understand the bet?

Griff wanted to reduce the number of games we used for Trent, and claimed it would give a more accurate comparison.

If you seriously agree that taking Trents passer rating and ypa for LESS games is somehow more accurate then you are as stupid as Griff.

[Griff]

You act as if I said it was somehow undeniable proof that Fitz is better. Typo are you trying to say you didn't understand the bet?

Griff wanted to reduce the number of games we used for Trent, and claimed it would give a more accurate comparison.

If you seriously agree that taking Trents passer rating and ypa for LESS games is somehow more accurate then you are as stupid as Griff.

Thats right keep thinking you're right no matter how many people disagree with you.

[yordad]

Thats right keep thinking you're right no matter how many people disagree with you.I don't care if you get 1000000 people trying to tell me this comparison is more accurate if you reduce the size of the sample..... it still is wrong, and makes absolutely no sense when using averages.

[Mr. Pink]

Trent is bad.

Fitzpatrick is worse.

/end thread

[Typ0]

You act as if I said it was somehow undeniable proof that Fitz is better. Typo are you trying to say you didn't understand the bet?

Griff wanted to reduce the number of games we used for Trent, and claimed it would give a more accurate comparison.

If you seriously agree that taking Trents passer rating and ypa for LESS games is somehow more accurate then you are as stupid as Griff.

No, I absolutely do see your half assed logic as usual. I did not say using less TE games would be more representative of the population. What I said was if you are going to compare one game for Fitz it would be just as accurate to use ONE game for TE. Why ONE game? That's your boneheaded attempt to sway the outcome in your favor! Yes, of course he could have a crappy game too and in that case it would backfire...which is more likely because he has more crappy games than good ones.

[yordad]

No, I absolutely do see your half assed logic as usual. I did not say using less TE games would be more representative of the population. What I said was if you are going to compare one game for Fitz it would be just as accurate to use ONE game for TE. Why ONE game? That's your boneheaded attempt to sway the outcome in your favor! Yes, of course he could have a crappy game too and in that case it would backfire...which is more likely because he has more crappy games than good ones.OMG dude. This isn't complicated. Trent has compiled several games worth of stats. We knew what his YPA and his passer rating was for the year thus far. I offered to bet his KNOWN yearly averages to one UNKNOWN game for Fitz.

YOU are trying to tell me using one game for TE gives us some sort of better comparison??? THAT MAKES ZERO SENSE. HOW would that be my "boneheaded attempt to sway the outcome"?????

How would you choose the one game for Trent?? And how on earth would ignoring his other complied stats be MORE accurate??

Your argument would make sense IF I offered to compare total passing yards, or TDs thrown, or times sacked, or some other thing not based on average (example of an "averages" based stat: with the words "PER" pass). But when comparing a stat like "YARDS PER ATTEMPT" the sample sizes do not have to be equal. ANYONE with half of a mathematically inclined brain would realize you would take ALL of Trent's available statistical information if you intend to make the most accurate comparison you can.

[Typ0]

If you were going to try and make the best prediction of something about TE then yes, you would use all of the available data and it would give you a higher level of significance.

However, you aren’t trying to predict anything in the future for TE you are trying to take an average from all of his observations and compare it to one observation from Fitz and call that an average. Why do you want to use all of TEs data and only one observation from RF? Because RFs average is about ½ of that of TE so you lose the bet.

I’ve seen a lot of bad research in my time. I can only surmise by your tactics that your one of the “make sure it tells the story people want to here” types of mathmeticians.



OMG dude. This isn't complicated. Trent has compiled several games worth of stats. We knew what his YPA and his passer rating was for the year thus far. I offered to bet his KNOWN yearly averages to one UNKNOWN game for Fitz.

YOU are trying to tell me using one game for TE gives us some sort of better comparison??? THAT MAKES ZERO SENSE. HOW would that be my "boneheaded attempt to sway the outcome"?????

How would you choose the one game for Trent?? And how on earth would ignoring his other complied stats be MORE accurate??

Your argument would make sense IF I offered to compare total passing yards, or TDs thrown, or times sacked, or some other thing not based on average (example of an "averages" based stat: with the words "PER" pass). But when comparing a stat like "YARDS PER ATTEMPT" the sample sizes do not have to be equal. ANYONE with half of a mathematically inclined brain would realize you would take ALL of Trent's available statistical information if you intend to make the most accurate comparison you can.

[yordad]

If you were going to try and make the best prediction of something about TE then yes, you would use all of the available data and it would give you a higher level of significance.

However, you aren’t trying to predict anything in the future for TE you are trying to take an average from all of his observations and compare it to one observation from Fitz and call that an average. Why do you want to use all of TEs data and only one observation from RF? Because RFs average is about ½ of that of TE so you lose the bet.

I’ve seen a lot of bad research in my time. I can only surmise by your tactics that your one of the “make sure it tells the story people want to here” types of mathmeticians.Because I was offering to make a bet. I did not say it is conclusive proof Fitz is better. It was for betting purposes. IN FACT, if you did read the thread, you would have seen where I also offered to INCLUDE Fitz's past stats, if he instead wanted to bet on that.

I was trying to make the best prediction for Trent- that is the point. My best prediction of how Trent WOULD HAVE PERFORMED to how FITZ ACTUALLY PERFORMS.

Get it? Is the light bulb going on?

"Best possible prediction for Trent based on actual past performances" VS "Unknown stats of what Fitz will do".

THAT IS WHY I MADE THE OFFER ABOUT PASSER RATING AND YARDS PER ATTEMPT. HE WAS ARGUING INCORRECTLY THAT I NEEDED AN EQUAL DATA POOL.

Not only do you apparently not understand the nature of these stats, you apparently cannot comprehend the bet either. A BET HE DIDN'T EVEN ACCEPT (thankfully, because I would have paid him, and he wouldn't have even understood why). Even worst, you apparently can't even comprehend what we are even arguing about.

[Typ0]

looking at one observation and trying to call it an average is not a good practice. Especially when there are so many other variables and you have no idea about those variables in the game you are picking to compare to a true average that at least contains several observations. I don't appreciate your "light bulb" arrogant crap I fully understand what you are doing--because the numbers have a similar look you think it's reasonable to use them for comparison. It would be more reasonable to just look at the next performance for each QB and compare them. Another way to look at this, how many QBs throw for their exact average YPA in a game and what is the variance of that data set? I am not going to assemble all that data it's a lot of work but the variance is going to be quite a few yards. If it was zero then what you are saying would make more sense. But there is no way that's true in a football game when you get behind you start throwing longer balls and then in garbage time you get huge chunks easily. Just those two variables that involve the current score render your one observation compare to a true average theory silly. No, you don't need the same number of data point's I'll agree with you there but you do need a reasonable number of observations to create a true average to make a comparison.

I'll try an analogy. I see your argument looking something like this. You are interested in the sale of twinkies in Wall-Mart compared to Target in the southwest region. You have hypothesized that Wall-Mart sells more twinkies per person walking into the store because target caters to a more upscale middle class health conscious consumer. You want to do this because you are an advertising manager for twinkies and Target is offering you some deal or something. Whatever there is a reason. OK, so in your model you are going to look at how many people walked into Wall Mart for a quarter (three months) and how many twinkies were sold and then compare that to one days sales data for Target. This is not going to render a reliable result because the sales data from Target did not take into account any of the many relevant seasonal factors in twinkie sales like the Wall-Mart data does. Sure, target might get lucky on that day and they look really good. Or they might get beat up and look real bad. But you have no indication that the one days sales data from Target reflects what their average sales data would be for a similar period of comparison.




Because I was offering to make a bet. I did not say it is conclusive proof Fitz is better. It was for betting purposes. IN FACT, if you did read the thread, you would have seen where I also offered to INCLUDE Fitz's past stats, if he instead wanted to bet on that.

I was trying to make the best prediction for Trent- that is the point. My best prediction of how Trent WOULD HAVE PERFORMED to how FITZ ACTUALLY PERFORMS.

Get it? Is the light bulb going on?

"Best possible prediction for Trent based on actual past performances" VS "Unknown stats of what Fitz will do".

THAT IS WHY I MADE THE OFFER ABOUT PASSER RATING AND YARDS PER ATTEMPT. HE WAS ARGUING INCORRECTLY THAT I NEEDED AN EQUAL DATA POOL.

Not only do you apparently not understand the nature of these stats, you apparently cannot comprehend the bet either. A BET HE DIDN'T EVEN ACCEPT (thankfully, because I would have paid him, and he wouldn't have even understood why). Even worst, you apparently can't even comprehend what we are even arguing about.

[Griff]

Are you still trying to prove that you're somehow a competent statistician yor? Seriously, every post you just delve further into incompetence. Please stop it.

[Typ0]

Are you still trying to prove that you're somehow a competent statistician yor? Seriously, every post you just delve further into incompetence. Please stop it.


It's sad that I wouldn't be surprised at all if he worked with stats in his job...I have seen so many idiots hire other idiots with BAs to do data analysis. It's like the blind leading the blind. And then they try and make decisions based on garbage. Anyone that doesn't recognize one observation is not a valid comparison to an average for decision making I would group right in with the idiots. Heck, he doesn't even use the right term, mean, when he babbles about "average". Median and mode are also averages. They are measures of central tendency and attempt to describe a data set by finding the middle in different ways. By very definition a single observation does not fit in AT all with any average. I would say, especially in this case, that two observations would be a considerable increase in reliability for any type of decision making. The thing that frustrated me about football is no matter what you do there is usually not enough observations to make any assertions and predictions because it's only a 16 game schedule. But to pick out one game and try and make a prediction or assertion is completely assinine. Heck, I just took a quick look at some stats and by yordads brilliance Vince Young is a better QB than Peyton Manning because last week his YPA were better than Peytons season averages.

[yordad]

looking at one observation and trying to call it an average is not a good practice. Especially when there are so many other variables and you have no idea about those variables in the game you are picking to compare to a true average that at least contains several observations. I don't appreciate your "light bulb" arrogant crap I fully understand what you are doing--because the numbers have a similar look you think it's reasonable to use them for comparison. It would be more reasonable to just look at the next performance for each QB and compare them. Another way to look at this, how many QBs throw for their exact average YPA in a game and what is the variance of that data set? I am not going to assemble all that data it's a lot of work but the variance is going to be quite a few yards. If it was zero then what you are saying would make more sense. But there is no way that's true in a football game when you get behind you start throwing longer balls and then in garbage time you get huge chunks easily. Just those two variables that involve the current score render your one observation compare to a true average theory silly. No, you don't need the same number of data point's I'll agree with you there but you do need a reasonable number of observations to create a true average to make a comparison.

I'll try an analogy. I see your argument looking something like this. You are interested in the sale of twinkies in Wall-Mart compared to Target in the southwest region. You have hypothesized that Wall-Mart sells more twinkies per person walking into the store because target caters to a more upscale middle class health conscious consumer. You want to do this because you are an advertising manager for twinkies and Target is offering you some deal or something. Whatever there is a reason. OK, so in your model you are going to look at how many people walked into Wall Mart for a quarter (three months) and how many twinkies were sold and then compare that to one days sales data for Target. This is not going to render a reliable result because the sales data from Target did not take into account any of the many relevant seasonal factors in twinkie sales like the Wall-Mart data does. Sure, target might get lucky on that day and they look really good. Or they might get beat up and look real bad. But you have no indication that the one days sales data from Target reflects what their average sales data would be for a similar period of comparison.Dude, I stopped reading after the first sentence because it is clear you still don't understand. Trent threw 153 passes on the year. I was using his average. If 153 passes qualifies as "one observation" to you, then I seriously begin to wonder when we hit the second. Year 10? Besides, THIS ISN"T WHAT HE WAS ARGUING.

I should just seriously cut and paste past replies, because it is clear that light still isn't getting electric.

Long story short, I offered to compare TRENT's average to Fitz's unknown one game performance FOR BETTING PURPOSES. Your buddy told me the comparison would be MORE valid if I REDUCED the number of passes in Trent's "observation".

Typo, just answer yes or no. Would this comparison be MORE valid if we only used a PORTION (as in, not all of them) of Trent's passes???????

pff

Edit: OK, I decided to read a little further, and it appears the problem (between us) is you INability to diagnose the problem. The part in bold is the only part with any relevance, and you are agreeing WITH ME.

[yordad]

Are you still trying to prove that you're somehow a competent statistician yor? Seriously, every post you just delve further into incompetence. Please stop it.I am not a statistician, and I am trying to prove nothing about myself. All I AM doing, is SHOWING your "post" are very dumb.

[yordad]

It's sad that I wouldn't be surprised at all if he worked with stats in his job...I have seen so many idiots hire other idiots with BAs to do data analysis. It's like the blind leading the blind. And then they try and make decisions based on garbage. Anyone that doesn't recognize one observation is not a valid comparison to an average for decision making I would group right in with the idiots. Heck, he doesn't even use the right term, mean, when he babbles about "average". Median and mode are also averages. They are measures of central tendency and attempt to describe a data set by finding the middle in different ways. By very definition a single observation does not fit in AT all with any average. I would say, especially in this case, that two observations would be a considerable increase in reliability for any type of decision making. The thing that frustrated me about football is no matter what you do there is usually not enough observations to make any assertions and predictions because it's only a 16 game schedule. But to pick out one game and try and make a prediction or assertion is completely assinine. Heck, I just took a quick look at some stats and by yordads brilliance Vince Young is a better QB than Peyton Manning because last week his YPA were better than Peytons season averages.Gez, typo. WTF are you even babbling about. So, you know all this, and you don't know the definition of the word "bet"? Could I bet that next week Vince Youngs single game passing stats would be better then Mannings average? Of course I can. I didn't offer to extrapolate it into a cure for cancer.

But, to play your game...

Lets say you got a pitcher in baseball, pitcher "A". He is in a league were they only throw fast balls and the average fast ball is about 80mph. His fast ball is completely erratic. He has thrown 150 (30 per game) fast balls and they range from 60-88 mph, with an average of 66. Now pitcher "B" comes in, plays a game, throws 30 pitches, they range from 60-88, but he averages 75.

Is this information useless when choosing the #1 pitcher? Would the manager not compare the single game of pitcher "B" to the averages of pitcher "A"?

And yes, I feel dumber for responding to these post.

[Typ0]

thanks for admitting you selectively read. But yes, like I said it would be a better comparison to compare TEs unknown game to JF unknown game. You can bet on anything you want of course but this type of comparison is reflective of nothing. The big problem I have against your whole method is you want to look at one player under ONE gameday situation and then compare that to another player's average from several gameday situations. This is in no way reasonable for anything purposeful because there are far too many variables that will effect the performance of the player on that given gameday. In practice, we observe a wide variance in yards per passing attempt from week to week so we can reasonable assert that any one weeks ypa is not reflective of where the middle of the seasons data will be.

It's nothing like your baseball analogy either. It would be fine if we were talking about how fast the QB threw the ball because that is something totally dependent on the QBs throwing arm and that is something that is not going to change in the few weeks of observations you can make. Plus, when the pitchers speed decreases they are taking out of the game. So the speed of the pitchers throws are going to have a very minimal variance (as long as you just consider the fast ball) and hence you can just look at a few pitches to get a decent picture of how fast the pitcher can throw the ball. So over the course of the game like you say the few outliers will be weeded out and you will be approaching having a decent average that you can look at in the way you are trying to do. But in the case of the single football game this is not the case because we observe a much higher variance in YPA than we do in pitching speed attempts of the fast ball from pitcher to pitcher BECAUSE THERE IS A FAR GREATER QUANTITY OF CORRELATED VARIABLES THAT EACH HAVE A MUCH LOWER CORRELATION INDEPENDANTLY.


Dude, I stopped reading after the first sentence because it is clear you still don't understand. Trent threw 153 passes on the year. I was using his average. If 153 passes qualifies as "one observation" to you, then I seriously begin to wonder when we hit the second. Year 10? Besides, THIS ISN"T WHAT HE WAS ARGUING.

I should just seriously cut and paste past replies, because it is clear that light still isn't getting electric.

Long story short, I offered to compare TRENT's average to Fitz's unknown one game performance FOR BETTING PURPOSES. Your buddy told me the comparison would be MORE valid if I REDUCED the number of passes in Trent's "observation".

Typo, just answer yes or no. Would this comparison be MORE valid if we only used a PORTION (as in, not all of them) of Trent's passes???????

pff

Edit: OK, I decided to read a little further, and it appears the problem (between us) is you INability to diagnose the problem. The part in bold is the only part with any relevance, and you are agreeing WITH ME.

[Typ0]

Here is one professional QB. Probably the most consistent one in the league this year:

YPA per game
7.92
13.17
10.83
8.61
7.02

6.91
7.23
6.36

Mean
8.50625

Variance
5.499569643

Considering the mean of the data set the variance is quite large and the spread of the YPA statistic is very broad. Knowing this, it's quite clear that using one observation of YPA is not an effective method of comparison to a true average of several observations of the same statistic.

[Griff]

I am not a statistician, and I am trying to prove nothing about myself. All I AM doing, is SHOWING your "post" are very dumb.

dumb because I use logic? sorry you fail again.

[SABURZFAN]

Are you still trying to prove that you're somehow a competent statistician yor? Seriously, every post you just delve further into incompetence. Please stop it.


let him keep going. it cements my case for what i've been saying about him all along.

[SABURZFAN]

thanks for admitting you selectively read.


and he asks you if the light bulb has gone on yet?


:lmao:


priceless........

[yordad]

dumb because I use logic? sorry you fail again.
OK, Mr. Logic, could you summarize your argument?

[Griff]

OK, Mr. Logic, could you summarize your argument?

I already have, repeatedly, just because you don't understand the concept of using similar sample sizes to compare two things doesn't mean its dumb, it just means you have no idea what you're talking about.

[yordad]

I already have, repeatedly, just because you don't understand the concept of using similar sample sizes to compare two things doesn't mean its dumb, it just means you have no idea what you're talking about.For a bet, it doesn't matter. Obviously it would be better if there was more data for Fitz if you want to use it for decision making purposes, but using less of the existing data for Edwards (in either case), to make it equal to the data for Fitz, makes absolutely zero sense, logic boy.

[Typ0]

For a bet, it doesn't matter. Obviously it would be better if there was more data for Fitz if you want to use it for decision making purposes, but using less of the existing data for Edwards (in either case), to make it equal to the data for Fitz, makes absolutely zero sense, logic boy.


So basically you are saying that since the data available for Fitz doesn't suit your purposes (ie you would lose that bet because TE stats are better) you are going to throw this random chance next unknown game thing out there and hope you win so you can say ha ha I told you so. It does sound very logical.

[yordad]

So basically you are saying that since the data available for Fitz doesn't suit your purposes (ie you would lose that bet because TE stats are better) you are going to throw this random chance next unknown game thing out there and hope you win so you can say ha ha I told you so. It does sound very logical.Obviously if you want to make a comparison you would include Fitz's other games.

But, CLEARLY, if you want to make a bet, you wouldn't include Fitz's known data.

This should seem very, very obvious. Fitz's other data did not fit my purpose of betting. Duh.

[yordad]

Typo, next time I offer to make a bet, I will make sure it is ok with you first. BTW, using your rational, what would have made a better bet?

[Typ0]

Typo, next time I offer to make a bet, I will make sure it is ok with you first. BTW, using your rational, what would have made a better bet?


it would have been a better bet if you just flipped a coin.

[yordad]

it would have been a better bet if you just flipped a coin.Duh. If that is your position, I don't know why you butted in using your illogical "logic" to begin with. You were owned in this thread.

[Typ0]

Duh. If that is your position, I don't know why you butted in using your illogical "logic" to begin with. You were owned in this thread.

lol. It would have been better because at least the outcome would have been equally weighted towards either side instead of swayed by your idiocracy.

[yordad]

lol. It would have been better because at least the outcome would have been equally weighted towards either side instead of swayed by your idiocracy.Oh Gez. Can we get someone, anyone with half a brain, to confirm that eliminating some of Trent's info, and choosing what info to disregard is LESS accurate NO MATTER WHAT YOU PLAN TO DO WITH THE INFO?

It is easy, LESS INFO means LESS ACCURATE. IT DOESN'T TAKE A MATH WHIZ GENIUSES!

[Typ0]

Oh Gez. Can we get someone, anyone with half a brain, to confirm that eliminating some of Trent's info, and choosing what info to disregard is LESS accurate NO MATTER WHAT YOU PLAN TO DO WITH THE INFO?

It is easy, LESS INFO means LESS ACCURATE. IT DOESN'T TAKE A MATH WHIZ GENIUSES!

I never said anything about TEs info. I was talking about comparing a single observation of RF to TEs complete data set especially since there is more data from RF available. Oh, but wait TEs YPA is 6.44 and RF is 5.09. Talk about a case of twisting around the stats to meet your needs.

[yordad]

I never said anything about TEs info. I was talking about comparing a single observation of RF to TEs complete data set especially since there is more data from RF available. Oh, but wait TEs YPA is 6.44 and RF is 5.09. Talk about a case of twisting around the stats to meet your needs.How am I twisting a stat that didn't exist at the time I offered to bet? This entire conversation started when Griff said we should only look at a portion of Trent's passes, AND YOU ARE AGREEING WITH HIM. You apparently agree that only looking at SOME OF Trent's existing info is MORE accurate, otherwise you would be agreeing with me.