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BertSquirtgum
11-21-2009, 12:21 AM
http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_11340647

Player-personnel calls, especially drafts from 2001-05, are cause for Shanahan's downfall.
By Jim Armstrong

In the end, Mike Shanahan the coach can blame his firing on Mike Shanahan the general manager.
Collectively, Shanahan's last three drafts may have been the best in the NFL. The Broncos' 2006-08 drafts netted several starters, including Pro Bowlers Jay Cutler and Brandon Marshall and bookend tackles Ryan Clady and Ryan Harris.
Now for the fine print: "If that's the case, if they got all those starters out of the draft, they had some holes they had to fill," said Marty Schottenheimer, Shanahan's longtime rival. "I imagine some of those young guys aren't the quality of players that was available to them three, four, five years ago."
No one ever has questioned Shana-han's abilities on the sideline or in the film room. Said ex-Cowboys personnel chief Gil Brandt, now an analyst for NFL.com (http://nfl.com/), upon hearing the news of Shanahan's dismissal: "His legacy is that he's one of the best play callers in the league. He's just a tremendous football coach."
But his player-personnel calls left much to be desired. Shanahan's five drafts from 2001-05, more than any other factor, led to his demise. The Broncos, as he walked out the door, had three players remaining from those drafts — Ben Hamilton, D.J. Williams and Karl Paymah. The rest, including such draft-day busts as Willie Middlebrooks, Paul Toviessi and George Foster, will go down in Broncos infamy.
And so it was that, after watching in horror as his defense allowed 409 points in 2007, Shanahan was forced to use his first three picks — Clady, Eddie Royal and Kory Lichtensteiger — to patch holes on the offensive side of the ball. The fallout was that a defense that ranked among the worst in the league the year before returned largely intact this season.
Bottom line
The results were nothing short of embarrassing, so much so that a two-time Super Bowl coach, the 15th-winningest coach in pro football history, is out of a job. The numbers speak for themselves: The Broncos have allowed 26.9 points per game in Cutler's 37 starts. Sixteen times in those 37 games, the Denver defense has been scorched for 30-plus. Five times, the opposition has eclipsed the 40-point mark, including Sunday's 52-21 loss to San Diego.
It was ugly, all right. Shanahan acknowledged as much days after the first of the Broncos' two three-game losing streaks in 2008.
"It's a challenge right now," Shana-han said in early November. "I understand that this is a performance-based business. If you don't perform, you don't keep your job. I understand that as well as anybody. The bottom line is, if (owner) Pat (Bowlen) feels like someday his best interests are to go in another direction, I know he'd sit down with me and we'd have a great conversation. He's a great owner, one of the best. That's his decision."
It was a decision announced via a short news release titled "Shanahan, Broncos Part Ways." And make no doubt, it sent shock waves throughout the league. It was one thing for Eric Mangini, Romeo Crennel and Rod Marinelli to get fired. But Shanahan, a man who began the 21st century as arguably the most secure coach in the business?
"You've got to be kidding me," said Brandt, when told of the news. "I know they've struggled so much on defense, but that's one of the biggest shocks I've heard in some years. Mike will get a job in 10 minutes. He's a guy who has really added a lot to the league."
Not his first firing
Tuesday's lightning bolt
http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site36/2008/1230/20081230_105613_ChartYearByYear123108_200.jpg (http://www.denverpost.com/portlet/article/html/imageDisplay.jsp?contentItemRelationshipId=2249281)(Click image to enlarge)


marked the third time that Shanahan had been fired as an NFL coach. The first came four games into the 1989 season, when Al Davis dumped him as head coach of the then-Los Angeles Raiders. Two years later, Shanahan was fired as the Broncos' offensive coordinator for what Dan Reeves termed insubordination, a reference to Reeves' perception that Shanahan and John Elway were circumventing him in game planning. Reached at his Atlanta home, Reeves, too, said he was shocked by the news. It was 16 years earlier, virtually to the day, that Reeves had been fired by Bowlen after assuming he would be the Broncos' head coach for years to come.
"Unbelievable," said Reeves. "It happens. It's a business in which you've got to win and win big. The thing that surprised me was that they have a quarterback, and that's what you have to have. They've definitely made an awful lot of moves defensively that haven't panned out. You win with defense and a running game. They've had the running game, but the defense hasn't been there."
Said Schottenheimer, who squared off with Shanahan more than any other NFL head coach: "I don't want to use a lot of dialogue. Let this old English major put it to you straight and simple: He's one of the finest coaches I've ever competed against. You just knew, when you played him, it was going to be tough. You knew he was going to be prepared."
Post-Elway slide
The 2008 season marked the first time in Shanahan's NFL coaching career that he had missed the playoffs in three consecutive seasons. It was a far cry from 1996-98, when the Broncos won 46 games, the highest three-year total in NFL history, including victories in Super Bowls XXXII and XXXIII.
Shanahan's critics point to the fact that he hasn't won a Super Bowl without a superstar quarterback. He won with one in San Francisco, when he was Steve Young's offensive coordinator, and two in Denver with Elway under center. Shanahan won one playoff game in the 10 seasons after Elway's retirement, a victory over New England after the 2005 season that set up a loss to Pittsburgh at Invesco Field in the AFC championship game.
Once the core of the Broncos' two Super Bowl teams departed, Shana-han's teams were largely mediocre, making the playoffs four times in the past decade. When Shanahan the GM wasn't drafting defensive players, he was signing them via free agency, with much the same results. The list of free-agent signees who didn't pan out included Dale Carter, Daryl Gardener, Lional Dalton and Niko Koutovides. Shanahan also acquired a handful of former Browns linemen who became known as the Browncos, but only Ebenezer Ekuban made a long-term impact.
One of the greatest
The bottom line? A coach once considered the best in the business finished 24-24 in his last three seasons.
"I expected something to happen, but I didn't expect this," said ESPN analyst Mark Schlereth, a guard on the Broncos' Super Bowl champion teams. "I expected the firing of a defensive coordinator or Pat Bowlen coming in and saying he wanted a real GM, an empowered GM, to run the personnel side of things. But to see Shanahan get fired, I was honestly shocked. He'll go down as one of the great ones — obviously the greatest ever in Denver, but, for a time, one of the greatest of all."
Bowlen, then Shanahan, will answer questions at a news conference this morning. After that, the only questions remaining are who'll be Shanahan's successor and did Bowlen just fire a Hall of Fame coach? Given his spotty track record in the past 10 seasons, Shanahan has accumulated his share of critics. Then again, he has all the credentials for Canton.
"Absolutely," said Schottenheimer, when asked if Shanahan belongs in the Hall of Fame. "I don't think there's any question. By every standard you would use to evaluate, I'd say he's a Hall of Famer."
But today, he's out of a job.
Shocking? Yes, particularly since Bowlen waited for three other coaches to be fired the day before. But Shanahan said in early November that he knew what was at stake.
"I understand the big picture," he said. "I understand you've got to get through these highs and lows. It's part of the process. If you can't work through it, then you're not in it very long."

Chewytie
11-21-2009, 12:24 AM
Kind of just skimmed it but that graphic gives me hope.

Mr. Pink
11-21-2009, 05:00 AM
Hey that article points out everything I said in the other lengthy thread I got slammed in repeatedly and called stupid.

Jim Armstrong must be an idiot too.

PECKERWOOD
11-21-2009, 05:03 AM
Hey that article points out everything I said in the other lengthy thread I got slammed in repeatedly and called stupid.

Jim Armstrong must be an idiot too.

Pretty much everybody in that article say's he is a hall of famer and one of the best in the biz.

Mr. Pink
11-21-2009, 05:06 AM
Pretty much everybody in that article say's he is a hall of famer and one of the best in the biz.


Really?

It showcases his ineptitude in picking players and talent.

His inability to win as a HC without Elway.

And that his teams post-Elway were mediocre.

PECKERWOOD
11-21-2009, 05:09 AM
Really?

It showcases his ineptitude in picking players and talent.

His inability to win as a HC without Elway.

And that his teams post-Elway were mediocre.

It highlighted some of his struggles on defense, along with struggles drafting through a minor period of time, but overall, it seems like the people interviewed have tremendous respect for his ability.

Don't Panic
11-21-2009, 07:14 AM
Really?

It showcases his ineptitude in picking players and talent.

His inability to win as a HC without Elway.

And that his teams post-Elway were mediocre.

Really? 33 wins in 3 years long after Elway is the inability to win? Come on... you don't have to be a fan of the guy, but don't slander the guy.

Yasgur's Farm
11-21-2009, 07:44 AM
Really?

It showcases his ineptitude in picking players and talent.

His inability to win as a HC without Elway.

And that his teams post-Elway were mediocre.Post Elway regular season record was 91-69... I guess he had the ability to win without Elway!

SABURZFAN
11-21-2009, 07:55 AM
Post Elway regular season record was 91-69... I guess he had the ability to win without Elway!


i wish the Bills had that record for the last 10 years.

X-Era
11-21-2009, 08:54 AM
Ill take the data, both good and bad, over conjecture.

There isn't a guy in the league now or ever who hasn't had draft picks that were busts.

There isn't a guy, ever, who has never screwed up on game day at least once.

Perfect? not by any means. No one is.

Does our next HC need to be? Absolutely not.

Ill take the data, and Shanny's record is very good, with proven SB success.

If you've been there, and you've done it, and succeeded, lack of experience will be one less thing standing in your way. Experience isnt a little important, its huge.

Dick's record prior to him coming here was about what he did while he was here. In that case, past predicted the future.

So what can we expect in the future from Shanny? About what hes done in the past?

Multiple SB wins, and multiple playoff appearances?

Ill take it.

Ron Burgundy
11-21-2009, 08:54 AM
Clady was a damned good pick, anyways.

PECKERWOOD
11-21-2009, 08:58 AM
He isn't even our coach, yet.. Prepare to be let down..

X-Era
11-21-2009, 09:00 AM
He isn't even our coach, yet.. Prepare to be let down..

Could easily happen, and it wont surprise me.

But right now, all I can go by is the talk, and it makes me hopeful.

I choose to be optimistic.

Yasgur's Farm
11-21-2009, 09:07 AM
i wish the Bills had that record for the last 10 years.He's only had 2 seasons where his teams have been 7-9 or worse (7-9 & 6-8) in his 14 year career. That beats the snot out of Mr prepetual 7-9! :cp:

Nighthawk
11-21-2009, 09:10 AM
Really?

It showcases his ineptitude in picking players and talent.

His inability to win as a HC without Elway.

And that his teams post-Elway were mediocre.

Ha, ha, ha...keep it up...you keep making yourself look silly with each post!

Yasgur's Farm
11-21-2009, 09:12 AM
As a matter of fact, he's had 9 winning seasons... 6 of which came without Elway under center.

Mike in Syracuse
11-21-2009, 09:49 AM
Let's not forget that a lot of those wins were against absolutely dreadful Raiders, Chiefs and Chargers teams.

Mr. Pink
11-21-2009, 09:50 AM
Really? 33 wins in 3 years long after Elway is the inability to win? Come on... you don't have to be a fan of the guy, but don't slander the guy.


"Once the core of the Broncos' two Super Bowl teams departed, Shana-han's teams were largely mediocre, making the playoffs four times in the past decade."

Straight from the article.

Yasgur's Farm
11-21-2009, 10:14 AM
Take any 4 consecutive seasons you'd like... The worse I can come up with is 53.1% winning 1999-2002... The 4 years immediately following Elways retirement.

His final 6 seasons resulted in 59.4% wins... an average 9.5 wins per season.

The numbers don't support your claims.

Ron Burgundy
11-21-2009, 10:16 AM
If mediocre is making the playoffs four times in ten years, then I'll take mediocre, seeing as how we've made the playoffs zero times in ten years.

ParanoidAndroid
11-21-2009, 12:26 PM
"Once the core of the Broncos' two Super Bowl teams departed, Shana-han's teams were largely mediocre, making the playoffs four times in the past decade."

Straight from the article.

<!-- / message -->Wait to see what happens to the Patriots post-Tom Brady, or the Colts post-Peyton Manning. Once Denver's O-line aged and Elway left, the core of the superbowl team was gone.
Shannahan might need a GM, but his coaching is superb without question.

Personally, I'd rather have Holmgren because of his proven track record with getting the right players, but Shannahan would be nice, too.

mikemac2001
11-21-2009, 12:28 PM
Wait to see what happens to the Patriots post-Tom Brady, or the Colts post-Peyton Manning. Once Denver's O-line aged and Elway left, the core of the superbowl team was gone.
Shannahan might need a GM, but his coaching is superb without question.

Personally, I'd rather have Holmgren because of his proven track record with getting the right players, but Shannahan would be nice, too.


:brilliant:

Typ0
11-21-2009, 01:53 PM
echoes what I said in another thread too. Lots of good things about Shanny but building a team isn't one of them. And we need a builder here. He's not a good fit for Buffalo.

TedMock
11-21-2009, 02:33 PM
The article talks about his awful drafts from 2001-2005, but starts off stating that his last three drafts were great. Isn't that a sign that he started to get this GM thing afterall? Maybe not, but if the guy is going bash his talent evaluating, then admit he got exponentially better, it's kind of moot at that point. I'm not saying he'll be a good GM or a bad GM, just that this guy contradicts his own points on some level.

PECKERWOOD
11-21-2009, 04:11 PM
Could easily happen, and it wont surprise me.

But right now, all I can go by is the talk, and it makes me hopeful.

I choose to be optimistic.

I'm cautiously optimistic, they need to give me something to go on, firing Dick was a start, but his replacement shall be equally important.

Aliceinchainsbills15
11-21-2009, 05:36 PM
http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_11340647

Player-personnel calls, especially drafts from 2001-05, are cause for Shanahan's downfall.
By Jim Armstrong

In the end, Mike Shanahan the coach can blame his firing on Mike Shanahan the general manager.
Collectively, Shanahan's last three drafts may have been the best in the NFL. The Broncos' 2006-08 drafts netted several starters, including Pro Bowlers Jay Cutler and Brandon Marshall and bookend tackles Ryan Clady and Ryan Harris.
Now for the fine print: "If that's the case, if they got all those starters out of the draft, they had some holes they had to fill," said Marty Schottenheimer, Shanahan's longtime rival. "I imagine some of those young guys aren't the quality of players that was available to them three, four, five years ago."
No one ever has questioned Shana-han's abilities on the sideline or in the film room. Said ex-Cowboys personnel chief Gil Brandt, now an analyst for NFL.com (http://nfl.com/), upon hearing the news of Shanahan's dismissal: "His legacy is that he's one of the best play callers in the league. He's just a tremendous football coach."
But his player-personnel calls left much to be desired. Shanahan's five drafts from 2001-05, more than any other factor, led to his demise. The Broncos, as he walked out the door, had three players remaining from those drafts — Ben Hamilton, D.J. Williams and Karl Paymah. The rest, including such draft-day busts as Willie Middlebrooks, Paul Toviessi and George Foster, will go down in Broncos infamy.
And so it was that, after watching in horror as his defense allowed 409 points in 2007, Shanahan was forced to use his first three picks — Clady, Eddie Royal and Kory Lichtensteiger — to patch holes on the offensive side of the ball. The fallout was that a defense that ranked among the worst in the league the year before returned largely intact this season.
Bottom line
The results were nothing short of embarrassing, so much so that a two-time Super Bowl coach, the 15th-winningest coach in pro football history, is out of a job. The numbers speak for themselves: The Broncos have allowed 26.9 points per game in Cutler's 37 starts. Sixteen times in those 37 games, the Denver defense has been scorched for 30-plus. Five times, the opposition has eclipsed the 40-point mark, including Sunday's 52-21 loss to San Diego.
It was ugly, all right. Shanahan acknowledged as much days after the first of the Broncos' two three-game losing streaks in 2008.
"It's a challenge right now," Shana-han said in early November. "I understand that this is a performance-based business. If you don't perform, you don't keep your job. I understand that as well as anybody. The bottom line is, if (owner) Pat (Bowlen) feels like someday his best interests are to go in another direction, I know he'd sit down with me and we'd have a great conversation. He's a great owner, one of the best. That's his decision."
It was a decision announced via a short news release titled "Shanahan, Broncos Part Ways." And make no doubt, it sent shock waves throughout the league. It was one thing for Eric Mangini, Romeo Crennel and Rod Marinelli to get fired. But Shanahan, a man who began the 21st century as arguably the most secure coach in the business?
"You've got to be kidding me," said Brandt, when told of the news. "I know they've struggled so much on defense, but that's one of the biggest shocks I've heard in some years. Mike will get a job in 10 minutes. He's a guy who has really added a lot to the league."
Not his first firing
Tuesday's lightning bolt
http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site36/2008/1230/20081230_105613_ChartYearByYear123108_200.jpg (http://www.denverpost.com/portlet/article/html/imageDisplay.jsp?contentItemRelationshipId=2249281)(Click image to enlarge)


marked the third time that Shanahan had been fired as an NFL coach. The first came four games into the 1989 season, when Al Davis dumped him as head coach of the then-Los Angeles Raiders. Two years later, Shanahan was fired as the Broncos' offensive coordinator for what Dan Reeves termed insubordination, a reference to Reeves' perception that Shanahan and John Elway were circumventing him in game planning. Reached at his Atlanta home, Reeves, too, said he was shocked by the news. It was 16 years earlier, virtually to the day, that Reeves had been fired by Bowlen after assuming he would be the Broncos' head coach for years to come.
"Unbelievable," said Reeves. "It happens. It's a business in which you've got to win and win big. The thing that surprised me was that they have a quarterback, and that's what you have to have. They've definitely made an awful lot of moves defensively that haven't panned out. You win with defense and a running game. They've had the running game, but the defense hasn't been there."
Said Schottenheimer, who squared off with Shanahan more than any other NFL head coach: "I don't want to use a lot of dialogue. Let this old English major put it to you straight and simple: He's one of the finest coaches I've ever competed against. You just knew, when you played him, it was going to be tough. You knew he was going to be prepared."
Post-Elway slide
The 2008 season marked the first time in Shanahan's NFL coaching career that he had missed the playoffs in three consecutive seasons. It was a far cry from 1996-98, when the Broncos won 46 games, the highest three-year total in NFL history, including victories in Super Bowls XXXII and XXXIII.
Shanahan's critics point to the fact that he hasn't won a Super Bowl without a superstar quarterback. He won with one in San Francisco, when he was Steve Young's offensive coordinator, and two in Denver with Elway under center. Shanahan won one playoff game in the 10 seasons after Elway's retirement, a victory over New England after the 2005 season that set up a loss to Pittsburgh at Invesco Field in the AFC championship game.
Once the core of the Broncos' two Super Bowl teams departed, Shana-han's teams were largely mediocre, making the playoffs four times in the past decade. When Shanahan the GM wasn't drafting defensive players, he was signing them via free agency, with much the same results. The list of free-agent signees who didn't pan out included Dale Carter, Daryl Gardener, Lional Dalton and Niko Koutovides. Shanahan also acquired a handful of former Browns linemen who became known as the Browncos, but only Ebenezer Ekuban made a long-term impact.
One of the greatest
The bottom line? A coach once considered the best in the business finished 24-24 in his last three seasons.
"I expected something to happen, but I didn't expect this," said ESPN analyst Mark Schlereth, a guard on the Broncos' Super Bowl champion teams. "I expected the firing of a defensive coordinator or Pat Bowlen coming in and saying he wanted a real GM, an empowered GM, to run the personnel side of things. But to see Shanahan get fired, I was honestly shocked. He'll go down as one of the great ones — obviously the greatest ever in Denver, but, for a time, one of the greatest of all."
Bowlen, then Shanahan, will answer questions at a news conference this morning. After that, the only questions remaining are who'll be Shanahan's successor and did Bowlen just fire a Hall of Fame coach? Given his spotty track record in the past 10 seasons, Shanahan has accumulated his share of critics. Then again, he has all the credentials for Canton.
"Absolutely," said Schottenheimer, when asked if Shanahan belongs in the Hall of Fame. "I don't think there's any question. By every standard you would use to evaluate, I'd say he's a Hall of Famer."
But today, he's out of a job.
Shocking? Yes, particularly since Bowlen waited for three other coaches to be fired the day before. But Shanahan said in early November that he knew what was at stake.
"I understand the big picture," he said. "I understand you've got to get through these highs and lows. It's part of the process. If you can't work through it, then you're not in it very long."
As far as i am concerned, Shanahan is a winning coach. His record indicates it. Without Elway, he still led them to the playoffs, including an AFC Championship game...I'm seriously getting tired of hearing this bashing of Shanahan...Heck, the fact that Shanahan is interested in becoming the next Bills HC is astonishing. Also, RALPH IS WILLING TO SPEND NOW! He even implied it when he fired DJ.:brace:

YoungEz
11-21-2009, 07:49 PM
It highlighted some of his struggles on defense, along with struggles drafting through a minor period of time, but overall, it seems like the people interviewed have tremendous respect for his ability.

Sorry but did you read it? You must not have read same article I did and the guy you are arguing with.

A minor period? Try 01-05 basically his 4 years of drafting, the hope is he learned how to since his last 3 were better.

The respect him as a coach NOT A GM. And the Bills want him as both.

On a side note a I am not against Shanny as being both for us the article just points out he isnt the sure thing savior a lot of people assume.
Holmgreen struggled as a GM/Coach as well...

BertSquirtgum
11-21-2009, 07:53 PM
the whole reason i posted this is because i feel there are good points and bad points with shanahan. i personally want him really bad as our next head coach. there are way more positives with shanny than some people in this thread are leading others to believe. how many of you guys wouldn't be ecstatic with those win/loss records? god knows i would, and to the people that said it was against sheit teams. you fail to remember that in the early part of the century the cheifs and raiders were not complete jokes.

Typ0
11-21-2009, 11:37 PM
the whole reason i posted this is because i feel there are good points and bad points with shanahan. i personally want him really bad as our next head coach. there are way more positives with shanny than some people in this thread are leading others to believe. how many of you guys wouldn't be ecstatic with those win/loss records? god knows i would, and to the people that said it was against sheit teams. you fail to remember that in the early part of the century the cheifs and raiders were not complete jokes.

I'd hate to see a good coach come here and flounder around like a dying fish because the talent wasn't here too. MS is a good organizer, planner and leader but he needs support or he'll be driven into the ground like every other coach we've had since Butler left. Is he going to acquire the talent he needs here to be successful?

Lexwhat
11-22-2009, 12:47 AM
Really?

It showcases his ineptitude in picking players and talent.

His inability to win as a HC without Elway.

And that his teams post-Elway were mediocre.


I stated in another thread that I think Shanahan would be a better coach than a GM. I don't want him to have full power. His talent evaluation (especially on Defense) has been average.

But, there are other hall of fame head coaches (e.g. Mike Holmgren) that don't succeed in the duel Coach/GM role. Doesn't mean they cant still be great head coaches!

Mix Shanahan with a good GM, and this team will almost always make the playoffs. Plain and simple.

mybills
11-22-2009, 05:58 AM
Mix Shanahan with a good GM, and this team will almost always make the playoffs. Plain and simple.
Agree. I could have sworn Ralph mentioned getting both, not one to do both things. If he does get both, Shanny is the right choice for HC. Not sure who would be the best GM, however.