It all starts with the big guys up front

[The Juice Is Loose]

We all argue about stuff here, but one thing that seems to be universally accepted throughout the world of football is that the game is won and lost in the trenches.

There have been some players here getting some criticism I don't think they deserve.

Namely, Lynch and Poz.

Both were no-brainer picks. Most of the people here would have done the same thing we did back in 07 given that Willis and Peterson were off the board.

RB and MLB are probably the 2nd and 3rd most effected positions when it comes to a lousy line, obviously the first being QB. Fred has found some success because he's efficient, slippery, and patient. We all know we need 2 backs, we all know Lynch has had a rough year.

But we also know he's 24 years old, has had no major injuries, and would be the best RB available in free agency if we let him go. However, we also know there is NO WAY we would get fair compensation for a 24 year old first round pick running back.

Lynch stays, and we need to give him a line. Fred is almost 30 years old. I personally feel we need to a back in the mold of Darren Sproles. That'd create a 3 way punch that would be unstoppable.

We know we need d tackles. We know we need D line. Let's see what happens if Stroud was our 2nd best D tackle. Poz wouldn't ever get blocked, he'd dominate.

Let's give these guys a look after we take care of our 100 weaknesses before we throw the guys with serious potential under the bus.

Lee Evans is more expendable, more tradeable, and less valuable then both of those players. And he's over paid.

[X-Era]

Re: It all starts with the big guys up front

We all argue about stuff here, but one thing that seems to be universally accepted throughout the world of football is that the game is won and lost in the trenches.

There have been some players here getting some criticism I don't think they deserve.

Namely, Lynch and Poz.

Both were no-brainer picks. Most of the people here would have done the same thing we did back in 07 given that Willis and Peterson were off the board.

RB and MLB are probably the 2nd and 3rd most effected positions when it comes to a lousy line, obviously the first being QB. Fred has found some success because he's efficient, slippery, and patient. We all know we need 2 backs, we all know Lynch has had a rough year.

But we also know he's 24 years old, has had no major injuries, and would be the best RB available in free agency if we let him go. However, we also know there is NO WAY we would get fair compensation for a 24 year old first round pick running back.

Lynch stays, and we need to give him a line. Fred is almost 30 years old. I personally feel we need to a back in the mold of Darren Sproles. That'd create a 3 way punch that would be unstoppable.

We know we need d tackles. We know we need D line. Let's see what happens if Stroud was our 2nd best D tackle. Poz wouldn't ever get blocked, he'd dominate.

Let's give these guys a look after we take care of our 100 weaknesses before we throw the guys with serious potential under the bus.

Lee Evans is more expendable, more tradeable, and less valuable then both of those players. And he's over paid.

Just to be the devils advocate:

Who was the last "game managing, but not great" QB, behind a great OL with a great defense, who won a SB, or even went to one?

I have my answer... you go first.

[ChristopherWalken]

Re: It all starts with the big guys up front

Polian understands this. Its simple physics actually. Even the lowly ol' beaver knows how to stop water from flowing. Fill the trenchs with clogging mass and your QB has all day to throw the football. On the other side of the ball, opposing runners get only the outside corner.

This high motor, strong, fast, but thinned out player garbage started with Gregg Williams and Donahoe. When they left, the "incoming" staff cradled the same stupid philosphy. Total garbage idea.

I want mean, borderline psychotic DTs that have the 5000+ a day caloric diets.

Which again raises the question, why Maybin?

On offense, there's a reason these top notch OT's are gone early in the draft every year. They have navy ship anchors planted in their ass, and dragging knuckles because the length of their wing-span dictates it.

The FO just doesn't get "IT".

[The Juice Is Loose]

Re: It all starts with the big guys up front

Trent Dilfer.

All I'm saying really is that in the order of rebuilding, you need to base it on

1. What you need
2. What's available

I don't see any QB's in the early draft that would be worth betting the farm on. McCoy, Bradford, Tebow. All warm weather QB's on superior teams, each with a laundry list of reasons that people don't expect them to do well at this level.

The one QB on my radar would be Jake Locker. Pike doesn't have an arm, is in a shotgun offense, and throws back across the field all the time. Bad habits are hard to break.

So, IMO, if you have an obvious choice at OT like Okung, or you can roll the dice on a guy like McCoy, the choice needs to be Okung.

I just think throwing another QB with high investment and tons of issues that need to be corrected on our team without getting an O line that can block or D line that can stop the run, it'll just be more of the same.

Besides, even if we get a QB, do you really think a SuperBowl will be in our plans for 2010??? Doubtful.

[X-Era]

Re: It all starts with the big guys up front

Trent Dilfer.

That was my pick as well

All I'm saying really is that in the order of rebuilding, you need to base it on

1. What you need
2. What's available

Agreed

I don't see any QB's in the early draft that would be worth betting the farm on. McCoy, Bradford, Tebow. All warm weather QB's on superior teams, each with a laundry list of reasons that people don't expect them to do well at this level.

Oklahoma is warm weather? I wouldnt go parading around in a short sleeve shirt right about now:

http://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick.php?CityName=Norman&state=OK&site=OUN&textField1=35.223&textField2=-97.439&e=0

The one QB on my radar would be Jake Locker. Pike doesn't have an arm, is in a shotgun offense, and throws back across the field all the time. Bad habits are hard to break.

Dont necessarily agree with your assessment but OK

So, IMO, if you have an obvious choice at OT like Okung, or you can roll the dice on a guy like McCoy, the choice needs to be Okung.

Could be one ofthe multiple scenarios that plays out.

I just think throwing another QB with high investment and tons of issues that need to be corrected on our team without getting an O line that can block or D line that can stop the run, it'll just be more of the same.

What would be more of the same is to throw said QB under our OL and then not bolster it. I agree. But the depth at the OT position and especially LT goes well into the 3rd round in this upcoming draft, and we haven't gone through FA either.

Besides, even if we get a QB, do you really think a SuperBowl will be in our plans for 2010??? Doubtful.

Nope, but there's probably no scenario where that's the case anyways.

Put it this way, I agree that we need a solid starting LT, I don't agree that it must, exclusively, come from the 1st round on the 2010 draft.

Same can be said for QB and DT as well.

[X-Era]

Re: It all starts with the big guys up front

Polian understands this. Its simple physics actually. Even the lowly ol' beaver knows how to stop water from flowing. Fill the trenchs with clogging mass and your QB has all day to throw the football. On the other side of the ball, opposing runners get only the outside corner.

This high motor, strong, fast, but thinned out player garbage started with Gregg Williams and Donahoe. When they left, the "incoming" staff cradled the same stupid philosphy. Total garbage idea.

I want mean, borderline psychotic DTs that have the 5000+ a day caloric diets.

Which again raises the question, why Maybin?

On offense, there's a reason these top notch OT's are gone early in the draft every year. They have navy ship anchors planted in their ass, and dragging knuckles because the length of their wing-span dictates it.

The FO just doesn't get "IT".

Agree on that point... hopefully Ralph's comments are real and he blows up the FO... but then he needs to significantly upgrade it... we will see if he actually does that.

Having stout trenches is a great plan and should be done. I hope we get on it fast and furious.

[The Juice Is Loose]

Re: It all starts with the big guys up front

That was my pick as well


Agreed


Oklahoma is warm weather? I wouldnt go parading around in a short sleeve shirt right about now:

http://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick.php?CityName=Norman&state=OK&site=OUN&textField1=35.223&textField2=-97.439&e=0

Dont necessarily agree with your assessment but OK


Could be one ofthe multiple scenarios that plays out.


What would be more of the same is to throw said QB under our OL and then not bolster it. I agree. But the depth at the OT position and especially LT goes well into the 3rd round in this upcoming draft, and we haven't gone through FA either.


Nope, but there's probably no scenario where that's the case anyways.

Put it this way, I agree that we need a solid starting LT, I don't agree that it must, exclusively, come from the 1st round on the 2010 draft.

Same can be said for QB and DT as well.

when was oklahomas last home game? i'm sure it wasn't now, which is the weather you pointed out.

teams with great lines win, period. look at eli manning. facts are facts and he's just not that good. their offensive and defensive lines won them the damn superbowl by getting to the qb, running the ball and stopping the run.

we have fitzpatrick and brohm, we should use fitz as a stop gap and see if brohm, once a highly touted qb, can come through. all the while bolstering our lines, etc etc etc.

we need a team that can run and stop the run, period. look at cutler in chicago. 4500 yards and pro bowl last year, this year, his team can't run or stop the run, and he's being asked to do too much.

even if we end up with a stud qb of the future, we need to bring him along by protecting him, running the ball, and putting him in a position to succeed. we throw him out there without serious improvement to our O line and without being able to hold the other team under 100's of yards rushing per game, he's not going to have a chance and he'll fall into the 1.5-3 year spin cycle of qb's here.

[kernowboy]

Re: It all starts with the big guys up front

Consider how poorly Lynch is playing, if we got a 2nd its theft. Lynch might be young but I think is staring days are over. He's been beaten by a NFL Europe player.

A 2nd is valuable to this team because if we do switch to a 3-4, it lets us look to potentially drafting a 3-4 end.

With a R1 pick being a LT, our R2 being a 3-4 DE and Lynch's pick also being a 3-4 DE, a NT, or a 3-4 OLB we are well on the way to making the transition.

James Starks will be available on Day3, and he could perform as well as Lynch has done this year despite being a rookie.

[X-Era]

Re: It all starts with the big guys up front

when was oklahomas last home game? i'm sure it wasn't now, which is the weather you pointed out.

Point is, its not as "warm" as Florida or southern Cali. Its more like Maryland/Delaware.

http://www.weather.com/weather/wxclimatology/monthly/graph/USOK0388

http://www.weather.com/weather/wxclimatology/monthly/graph/USMD0018?from=tenDay_bottomnav_undeclared

teams with great lines win, period. look at eli manning. facts are facts and he's just not that good. their offensive and defensive lines won them the damn superbowl by getting to the qb, running the ball and stopping the run.

Its a solid plan, and usually works... not always. And, IMO, it doesnt mean you can plug any game managing QB in and expect success. I dont believe that.

we have fitzpatrick and brohm, we should use fitz as a stop gap and see if brohm, once a highly touted qb, can come through. all the while bolstering our lines, etc etc etc.

That's one scenario... Id personally put another youngster with franchise potential in the mix. We could wait till next years draft, but then we lose out on a year of developing our new franchise QB potentially.

we need a team that can run and stop the run, period. look at cutler in chicago. 4500 yards and pro bowl last year, this year, his team can't run or stop the run, and he's being asked to do too much.

Thats one way of looking at it. Chicago has an average offense and a stellar defense, and Cutler owns a big chunk of the their troubles.

even if we end up with a stud qb of the future, we need to bring him along by protecting him, running the ball, and putting him in a position to succeed. we throw him out there without serious improvement to our O line and without being able to hold the other team under 100's of yards rushing per game, he's not going to have a chance and he'll fall into the 1.5-3 year spin cycle of qb's here.

Totally agree, fortunately we have lots of cap room (if we choose to use it), at least 7 draft picks (may be able to get more), and the ability to make trades.

I want massive upgrades now, but Im also realistic about it taking a few years.

Again though, id like to be realistic about how long it takes to develop players at our positions of need. If it takes 3 years to develop a good one, we ought to get that guy now.

[Mr. Pink]

Re: It all starts with the big guys up front

It starts with having a competent QB.

He doesn't have to be flashy but he has to play consistent smart football.

Big Ben was sacked 46 times last year, the Steelers still won the SB.

Tom Brady was sacked 41 times the first year the Pats won the SB.

Conversely Trent was sacked 23 times last year.

Some people put way too much stock in an offensive line. Kurt Warner was sacked 26 times, Arizona couldn't run well because their run blocking was suspect and they still made the SB. Why? Competent QB play.

[X-Era]

Re: It all starts with the big guys up front

It starts with having a competent QB.

He doesn't have to be flashy but he has to play consistent smart football.

Big Ben was sacked 46 times last year, the Steelers still won the SB.

Tom Brady was sacked 41 times the first year the Pats won the SB.

Conversely Trent was sacked 23 times last year.

Some people put way too much stock in an offensive line. Kurt Warner was sacked 26 times, Arizona couldn't run well because their run blocking was suspect and they still made the SB. Why? Competent QB play.

I wont go as far as you, but I think the QB position is undervalued by some.

[BillsWin]

Re: It all starts with the big guys up front

It is 40 degrees outside right now here in Oklahoma Juice. We get ice and snow. Not 3 feet of the white stuff, but it ices over bad here. I remember three years ago, there was a major ice storm that left four to five solid inches of ice covering the streets of Oklahoma city. And that was on top of a foot of snow.

Contrary to popular belief, it gets DAMN cold in Oklahoma.