Our WR situation is a mess!

[HHURRICANE]

Hardy was taken at (41) in the 2008 draft. Look at how some of the picks are doing that were taken in rounds 2 and 3 after him:

(70) Bennett, Earl REC 45 YDS 599 AVG 13.3 TDS 1 CHI

(97) Caldwell, Andre REC 39 YDS 363 AVG 9.3 TDS 3 CIN

(81) Doucet, Early REC 9 YDS 102 AVG 11.3 TDS 0 ARI

(49) Jackson, DeSean REC 44 YDS 769 AVG 17.5 TDS 6 PHI

(51) Kelly, Malcolm REC 14 YDS 194 AVG 13.9 TDS 0 WAS

(42) Royal, Eddie ACT REC 33 YDS 314 AVG 9.5 TDS 0 DEN

Now look at what we have currently:

Reed, Josh REC 23 YDS 228 AVG 9.9 TDS 1 BUF
Evans, Lee REC 31 YDS 474 AVG 15.3 TDS 5 BUF
Owens, Terrell REC 43 YDS 690 AVG 16.0 TDS 3 BUF

How do we justify Evans as a #1 WR? Serioulsy? Reed and Owens are both gone next year. Than what?

[Yasgur's Farm]

:console:

[yordad]

Dude, our guys cannot pass themselves the ball, nor can they block for the QB passing them the ball.

[don137]

Everyone one of those listed except for Malcolm Kelly have a very good QB throwing to them. The fact that Hardy can not get on the field is not a good sign however, you can not blame Hardy on the fact the Bills have terrible pass protection and a terrible group of QBs.

[HHURRICANE]

Everyone one of those listed except for Malcolm Kelly have a very good QB throwing to them. The fact that Hardy can not get on the field is not a good sign however, you can not blame Hardy on the fact the Bills have terrible pass protection and a terrible group of QBs.


Why does Edwards not get the same pass for the o-line that the WRs and RBs get? I find that kind of funny.

[yordad]

Why does Edwards not get the same pass for the o-line that the WRs and RBs get? I find that kind of funny.I find it funny that you find it funny. Bottom line, our QBs are not productive because our QBs suck. The line IS a reason the QBs suck. If our QB is performing, and can do it with a bad line, our WRs would still be productive. The line IS the QB excuse. Just not a good enough to fully excuse.

[HHURRICANE]

I find it funny that you find it funny. Bottom line, our QBs are not productive because our QBs suck. The line IS a reason the QBs suck. If our QB is performing, and can do it with a bad line, our WRs would still be productive. The line IS the QB excuse. Just not a good enough to full excuse.

Everything starts with the o-line. Nobody wants to admit that Evans isn't that good.

[BlackMetalNinja]

Why does Edwards not get the same pass for the o-line that the WRs and RBs get? I find that kind of funny.Wait, 2 days ago wasn't Edwards in no shape or form the answer for us? Could you make up your mind... your pointless rambling keeps contradicting itself.

[bigbub2352]

OLINE is the problem for sagging REC numbers, as well as the poor production of the RBs and QB, im sure TE and Fitz would look at least AVG if they had anytime to think back there
but still we carry 7 WRs and play 3 hmmm? but we have serious depth issues at OLINE, DLine, LBer, and TE

[TacklingDummy]

Everything starts with the o-line. Nobody wants to admit that Evans isn't that good.
Actually everything starts and ends with a QB, see Colts, Bills, Broncos, Pats, etc...

[yordad]

Wait, 2 days ago wasn't Edwards in no shape or form the answer for us? Could you make up your mind... your pointless rambling keeps contradicting itself.Yeah, take this quote for example. He contradicts himself in consecutive sentences.

Everything starts with the o-line. Nobody wants to admit that Evans isn't that good. You say everything starts with our CRAPPY line, then you imply that this is proof Evans sucks. :wtf:

[SABURZFAN]

this WHOLE team is a mess. the Bills have QB's who are not that good and shouldn't be starting for any team. the OL consists of rookies and others who are nothing but mere backups. the defense ranks last against the run and on the field way too long. the coaches on this team are far below average. the FO is a joke and the owner has neglected this team and its fans for a decade. the only good thing you can say about this team is that it has a decent punter. but seriously, how many wins can you get out of a punter? that's what i thought.

[Jan Reimers]

1) Hardy has been seriously injured.
2) We have had a clown parade at QB, made even worse by a bad O-line.
3) He can't put himself into the game. Our coaching staff, at least under Jauron, let several rookies languish with its "play to keep it respectible" approach.

[HHURRICANE]

Wait, 2 days ago wasn't Edwards in no shape or form the answer for us? Could you make up your mind... your pointless rambling keeps contradicting itself.

I'm not. Everyone's consensus is Edwards sucks but has nothing to do with bad o-line play. But people just said the o-line was contributing to poor RB and WR play.

Edwards is in a vacuum when it comes to o-line play?

Edwards lack of leadership is one if the reasons he is now sitting on the bench. After what I heard the last week his talent won't make up for this.

Two different situations.

[HHURRICANE]

Yeah, take this quote for example. He contradicts himself in consecutive sentences.
You say everything starts with our CRAPPY line, then you imply that this is proof Evans sucks. :wtf:

No what I said was that people are making excuses for every position based o-line play but they exclude QB. I find that ridiculous.

Evans is not a #1 WR. Owens is playing on the same crappy team in the #2 position and has 200 more yards.

I'm sure Owens is seeing way more coverage than Evans and Evans still can't get open.

[DrGraves]

You bring up a good point HH.

Why isn't hardy and johnson getting playtime if t.o. and possibly reed will be gone? do we really want to enter the next season with our 2 and 3rd wideouts having no experience?

I agree about evans to some extent too... he has shown good speed and has GREAT hands... but for some reason he just doesn't make that much of an impact in games.

[BlackMetalNinja]

I'm not. Everyone's consensus is Edwards sucks but has nothing to do with bad o-line play. But people just said the o-line was contributing to poor RB and WR play.

Edwards is in a vacuum when it comes to o-line play?

Edwards lack of leadership is one if the reasons he is now sitting on the bench. After what I heard the last week his talent won't make up for this.

Two different situations.Who on Earth has said that the o line didn't have anything to do with the QB? They are both bad, and that's all there really is to it. You can use the o line as blame for a QB for a period of time, but after 3 years, the skills are going to show through despite a bad line. That hasn't happened... again. Both need fixed in the worst way possible, but I would say that even a good QB will struggle behind a bad line. A bad QB is going to be a bad QB regardless of what's in front of him for the most part.

[yordad]

No what I said was that people are making excuses for every position based o-line play but they exclude QB. I find that ridiculous.

Evans is not a #1 WR. Owens is playing on the same crappy team in the #2 position and has 200 more yards.

I'm sure Owens is seeing way more coverage than Evans and Evans still can't get open.HH, more contradiction. If Owens is seeing more coverage, and is being targeted more, THAT WOULD BY DEFINITION MAKE HIM THE #1.

[HHURRICANE]

Who on Earth has said that the o line didn't have anything to do with the QB? They are both bad, and that's all there really is to it. You can use the o line as blame for a QB for a period of time, but after 3 years, the skills are going to show through despite a bad line. That hasn't happened... again. Both need fixed in the worst way possible, but I would say that even a good QB will struggle behind a bad line. A bad QB is going to be a bad QB regardless of what's in front of him for the most part.

The o-line was not that bad last year. If the o-line had stayed the same I believe that Edwards would still be the starter. IMO.

Bottom line is that peyton Manning would not play well behind that line. You are kidding yourself if you believe otherwise.

My crticism of Edwards is the fact that he did nothing to insert himself as a leader on this team. Nothing.

[HHURRICANE]

HH, more contradiction. If Owens is seeing more coverage, and is being targeted more, THAT WOULD BY DEFINITION MAKE HIM THE #1.

Well than why are we paying Evans as the #1 WR?

[DrGraves]

could we trade evans for some picks? i love him and think hes a good player but if he only catches a ball or two a game once the game is already over maybe it would be more valuable to fill some other holes?

[yordad]

Well than why are we paying Evans as the #1 WR?First, he was when we paid him. Second, Owens probably makes more this year. Third, IMO, Evans is a talented #1, and I have little doubt he would be having a monster season if he was on the Colts (for example).

[HHURRICANE]

could we trade evans for some picks? i love him and think hes a good player but if he only catches a ball or two a game once the game is already over maybe it would be more valuable to fill some other holes?

I wanted to keep Peters and trade Evans.

WRs are easier to find than franchise LTs.

[DraftBoy]

None of those WR's really make you say "ouch" aside from Royal. Then maybe Caldwell, other than that its way too early to tell anything outside of broad over reaching assumptions.

[HHURRICANE]

None of those WR's really make you say "ouch" aside from Royal. Then maybe Caldwell, other than that its way too early to tell anything outside of broad over reaching assumptions.

I kind of hate this logic. It's not Hardy's fault that he got injured but yet it's another case of a draft pick not contributing anything to this team.

[Yasgur's Farm]

And thus, in your mind, he never will... I can't live life with that mentality. I'd have to slit my wrists.

[yordad]

I kind of hate this logic. It's not Hardy's fault that he got injured but yet it's another case of a draft pick not contributing anything to this team.HH, show me the thread you made pre-draft saying the Bills should pick one of those other dudes, or that those other dudes will be way more productive as NFL WRs.

[DraftBoy]

I kind of hate this logic. It's not Hardy's fault that he got injured but yet it's another case of a draft pick not contributing anything to this team.


Hate it all you want, but its sound.

You're jumping to a conclusion based on far too small of a data set. There is reason why people don't grade drafts till a minimum of three years has passed.

[HHURRICANE]

HH, show me the thread you made pre-draft saying the Bills should pick one of those other dudes, or that those other dudes will be way more productive as NFL WRs.

http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?t=150422

You were willing to use our first rounder on one of these guys!!

[HHURRICANE]

HH, show me the thread you made pre-draft saying the Bills should pick one of those other dudes, or that those other dudes will be way more productive as NFL WRs.

http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?t=148972

Sadly this was two years ago and it's the same old crap.

[HHURRICANE]

http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?t=147552

I suggested two years ago trading Evans.

[PECKERWOOD]

http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?t=147552

I suggested two years ago trading Evans.

And I was suggesting that we trade Marshawn after his pro bowl year, so what? It didn't happen.

[yordad]

http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?t=150422

You were willing to use our first rounder on one of these guys!!How in the hell does that prove you weren't willing with the second??

[yordad]

http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?t=148972

Sadly this was two years ago and it's the same old crap.How does this thread prove you thought we should have got one of the guys you mentioned in your original post? Doesn't it actually imply the opposite? And, didn't they actually do what you suggested? Not draft a WR first, and fortify it with a free agent.

[yordad]

http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?t=147552

I suggested two years ago trading Evans.Which I still think was a dumb idea, so I don't understand your point. If anything it shows you contradicting yourself. You say our WRs need help, so they should get rid of our best one? :wtf:

[SABURZFAN]

And I was suggesting that we trade Marshawn after his pro bowl year, so what? It didn't happen.

but the difference is that Lynch still had years remaining in his contract where i think Evans was in a final year. i'm not sure but i think the Bills would be stuck paying more, with the signing bonus, with Lynch than they would have with Evans. we'd have to ask clumpy about that since he understands contracts and salary cap much better than we do.

[kelly2reed4six]

Why does Edwards not get the same pass for the o-line that the WRs and RBs get? I find that kind of funny.

Because they are two completely different positions....and like someone previously noted the WR's rely on the QB completely......look what Warner and Roethlisberger were able to do with mediocre/bad o-lines! I'm not willing to place all of the blame on Edwards, but the vast majority of it has to go on him. A good QB finds a way to make the plays regardless.

[Oaf]

I'm really wondering how we didn't take advantage of Evans 1v1 against the Jets when they brought their blitzes. I guess Fitz couldn't look past one read, but he's the one with the gonads right? Is it possible Evans just can't consistently run routes and get open against 1v1 coverage? :ill:

[yordad]

I'm really wondering how we didn't take advantage of Evans 1v1 against the Jets when they brought their blitzes. I guess Fitz couldn't look past one read, but he's the one with the gonads right? Is it possible Evans just can't consistently run routes and get open against 1v1 coverage? :ill:I seen the Jets get pressure with 4. Lee had coverage over the top. Owens had the single most of the game but Revis ate him.

[FlyingDutchman]

So HH, let me get this straight. A couple of months ago, this team was terrible to you, and 1 giant waste of time, and you were becoming a pats fan....this was before the season......Now the season is almost over, we're are indeed terrible (which we all saw coming) and you spend more time than ever on here....you sure seem to be the busy businessman with better things to do which you claim to be. We dont have answers for you here. What are you looking for from us? Why are we always the dog to kick?

[FlyingDutchman]

seriously though, ive seen you write a thread complaining we dont have anthony hargrove anymore, as well as one complaining about the trainers...whats next billy the buffalo?

[HHURRICANE]

Because they are two completely different positions....and like someone previously noted the WR's rely on the QB completely......look what Warner and Roethlisberger were able to do with mediocre/bad o-lines! I'm not willing to place all of the blame on Edwards, but the vast majority of it has to go on him. A good QB finds a way to make the plays regardless.

Did you watch the game last night? Collinsworth commented on how Fitzgerald and Boldin have routes that require the QB to have 5-6 seconds to get rid of the ball. That isn't happening on a Bills team.

[yordad]

Did you watch the game last night? Collinsworth commented on how Fitzgerald and Boldin have routes that require the QB to have 5-6 seconds to get rid of the ball. That isn't happening on a Bills team.What is your point? That the Cards have a good line? Or is this a coaching point. I mean, what are you even saying? How does this imply our WRs are a mess?

[kernowboy]

Sign Russ Grimm as Head Coach

[HHURRICANE]

So HH, let me get this straight. A couple of months ago, this team was terrible to you, and 1 giant waste of time, and you were becoming a pats fan....this was before the season......Now the season is almost over, we're are indeed terrible (which we all saw coming) and you spend more time than ever on here....you sure seem to be the busy businessman with better things to do which you claim to be. We dont have answers for you here. What are you looking for from us? Why are we always the dog to kick?

When the o-line was dismantled to save money it was obvious that the FO had no interest in paying for a winning season. So naturally, having both my kids born their, and having lived there, I thought it was a natural fit to root for the Pats. However, when it comes down to it I find it almost impossible to root for the Pats.

It takes all of 30 seconds to make a post on this site and I enjoy talking football. Don't have alot of vices so this is mine, I guess.

To answer your question, it's do or die. for me. I'm pretty engaged right now because it appears that the Bills might do the right thing and bring in a real GM and coach. We are less than 60 days away from knowing for sure.

For the record I'm not watching this weekend because the Jets game was awful.

[HHURRICANE]

What is your point? That the Cards have a good line? Or is this a coaching point. I mean, what are you even saying? How does this imply our WRs are a mess?

Dude, did you read the thread? Owens and Reed are gone. That leaves Evans, whose not a #1 WR, Hardy and Johnson. That's not a mess?

The o-line is bad which exasperates the problem.

Not that confusing.

[don137]

Why does Edwards not get the same pass for the o-line that the WRs and RBs get? I find that kind of funny.

I would give Edwards a pass for the bad OL play but he lost me because he is too much of a puss to throw it deep. I was a diehard supporter of the guy but he is a clone of Kelly Holcomb.

[yordad]

Dude, did you read the thread? Owens and Reed are gone. That leaves Evans, whose not a #1 WR, Hardy and Johnson. That's not a mess?

The o-line is bad which exasperates the problem.

Not that confusing.Don't forget the QB sucks. And, I am not sure why you brought up the Cards, but oh well.

[kernowboy]

I think a proper WR coach would help the young guys.

Is James Lofton available? He's succeeded in the colder climate

[Beebe's Kid]

For the record I'm not watching this weekend because the Jets game was awful.
-TRENT EDWARDS


The proverbial POP!! I just heard it. All of our former Pro-Bowl players need to be shipped out. There is no way that not having an OL should effect Lynch...and why would a WR need to get the ball to have big numbers?

Trade them for draft picks?? I like a lot of players that we have picked up. I think we have a solid foundation and players that will be elite at their position. Especially Whitner and Poz...I know I am (almost) alone on this one. That being said...why would you want us to trade for draft picks, when 75% of the messages on this board are second guessing every draft pick in the last 10 years.

Instead of trading the talented players on this team, why not build around them?

Lee Evans has incredible speed, and makes great catches. He isn't seeing the ball, because we need to keep stroking TO's ego. I like TO, I hope we bring him back, his leadership and high demands are what a young team needs. Please don't zero in on the TO thing (Fitzy), I am happy to elaborate at a different time, this talk is about Lee.

TO drops far more passes than Lee. Lee makes incredible catches, how about the one against SD last year...one hand, behind the head? His catch against TB was impressive, the one that got called back in Jacksonville was as impressive a catch as you are going to see.

We threw to him...what, maybe, 5 times in the Toronto game?? The two Fitzy bounce to him could have tuned into points if he catches them. Remember the TD against the Jets in NJ? How about the diving catch that was ruled not a catch at the 1 yd line? Last year, that was a TD.

Our players at RB, WR, TE, and every where are hurting from piss-poor QB play. TE gave up on the team...I will cut bait. Fitzy is better off wiith a clipboard, seeing as he is the worst QB I have seen in a while. I mean pure throwing ability, not his character or IQ. Throwing ability...he has none.

Lee is one of the guys that you would appreciate if he was in another uniform...he would kill us. He is a game changer...we need to get him the ball.

Everybody keeps focusing on who needs to go...There are glaring holes in the this team. We have players on both sides of the ball that do not deserve to be in the NFL. A good QB starts to take care of things, because they make the most out of the opportunities they are given. A strong OL makes sure that they get more opportunities. A RB in this league is nothing without a line...well they are on their way to an early retirement. I think if the obvious holes; LOLB, DE, RT, LT, C (my opinion,) and QB were addressed we would be fine. We have not had Mitchell and Poz on the field at the same time. McGee has missed a ton of time, McKelvin, Byrd is hurt.

We need to fill holes...getting rid of Lynch, Poz, Whitner, Evans, Owens, and the others, would be counterproductive. Injuries have decimated this team, which lacks depth (please don't confuse with a team that lacks talent,) and the QB situation is horrific. I hope Ralph loosens the purse strings, and we get the ship on course here. We need a starting QB, an OL and a DL...then we compete.

[Beebe's Kid]

One more quick note...

I am shocked I didn't hear all of the man love for future HOF Steve Johnson on this board... over at Two Bill's Drive we would have been reliving each of his 12 career catches by now!

Disclaimer: I am not saying that I don't like Steve Johnson, but I find it humorous that anybody would think that he should be playing of Lee and TO...if Manning or Brees had Lee and TO....no others need apply.

[YardRat]

Our WR's would be a lot more productive if we had any semblance of an offensive line...and even more so with a decent QB.

[Demon]

I can't believe this is a serious thread. The only player the Bills should have considered off that list is Malcom Kelly, who had an injury late in his Oklahoma career thus missing the bowl game and not sure how many work outs he missed due to it. Either way though, Kelly has also been injuried at the NFL level but has played more then Hardy but still sucks if you look at stats. All of the guys you listed, except for Kelly, are 6'0 or under. The Bills didn't need another short WR, we have Lee Evans. Name me a team that does great with their top 2 WR's 6'0 or under? The Bills were in major need of a big target for the end zone for Edwards and needed someone big.... it was between Kelly and Hardy and they picked the healthier and taller Hardy.

This entire thread is pointless. The Bills did what they should have, it's just too bad WR's take longer to adjust to the NFL level, thus why so little of them are picked in the first round and why so many teams start to grab WRs in the second round.... and Hardy has missed a good portion of his rookie season, all of training camp and most of this season.

I'm not going to say that Hardy will be a good player in the future, but i can't say he's a bust either. It's too early too tell.

What it's too early to tell is that this thread makes no sense because HH just names off a few WRs better then Hardy but given their size and that we have no QB, their numbers would be no better here then Hardy's.

[Demon]

One more quick note...

I am shocked I didn't hear all of the man love for future HOF Steve Johnson on this board... over at Two Bill's Drive we would have been reliving each of his 12 career catches by now!

Disclaimer: I am not saying that I don't like Steve Johnson, but I find it humorous that anybody would think that he should be playing of Lee and TO...if Manning or Brees had Lee and TO....no others need apply.

Steve Johnson has a pretty big fanbase on here too... i still don't understand it.

[ServoBillieves]

Evans is gone this year? Coulda swore he signed an extension...

[Philagape]

The Bills didn't need another short WR, we have Lee Evans. Name me a team that does great with their top 2 WR's 6'0 or under? The Bills were in major need of a big target for the end zone for Edwards and needed someone big.... it was between Kelly and Hardy and they picked the healthier and taller Hardy.


Perhaps they, and we, underestimated their need for a productive receiver, regardless of height, so they can get near the end zone in the first place.
Royal or Jackson could have started for the Bills in 2008. They may have not had the numbers as they have with their teams, but the Bills would be a lot better off at the position going into 2010.

[Demon]

Perhaps they, and we, underestimated their need for a productive receiver, regardless of height, so they can get near the end zone in the first place.
Royal or Jackson could have started for the Bills in 2008. They may have not had the numbers as they have with their teams, but the Bills would be a lot better off at the position going into 2010.

Unless you have a beast TE with size, i don't think having 2 small WRs will work. The Bills tried to land it, and have been trying to land that tall catching TE and yet they keep failing. The biggest problem comes down to QB though. We have Evans with Terrell Owens right now and we still can't air it out with ease and some think adding another midget rookie would have worked? Come on....

[Michael82]

I'm hoping you are wrong and that Reed isn't gone. He's a good receiver and clutch on 3rd down. Plus he's a great blocker. The problem is that he's horribly used. :ill:

[PECKERWOOD]

Dude, did you read the thread? Owens and Reed are gone. That leaves Evans, whose not a #1 WR, Hardy and Johnson. That's not a mess?

The o-line is bad which exasperates the problem.

Not that confusing.

Evans is a #1, he has done it before when a QB has actually gotten him the ball. He isn't an elite #1 by any stretch of the imagination, but he is a #1.

[BillsOwnAll]

You bring up a good point HH.

Why isn't hardy and johnson getting playtime if t.o. and possibly reed will be gone? do we really want to enter the next season with our 2 and 3rd wideouts having no experience?

I agree about evans to some extent too... he has shown good speed and has GREAT hands... but for some reason he just doesn't make that much of an impact in games.I disagree about evans. He CAN be a impact player. The bills just are never in postion for him to make a impact. I dont recal exactly but i remember last year in our hot start with a few come from behind wins he had some HUGE catches in those games. If the bills were in postion to win more games he would make more of an impact.

[Beastie Bills]

Everything starts with the o-line. Nobody wants to admit that Evans isn't that good.

I do!