Would anyone like to see a 3-4 Defense next year?

[BillsFanCupp38]

I have been wanting it for years and I was wondering what other people thought. I think we have the personel minus a D-end.

RDE: Spencer Johnson
DT: Marcus Stroud
LDE: Free agent/ Draft pick
ROLB: Schobel
ILB: Kawika Mitchell
ILB: Poz
LOLB: Maybin

Secondary is set.... Let me know what you think...

[Prov401]

I would love a 3-4. It is for sure my favorite defense, and many elite teams run it. However, I will disagree about the Bills having the right personell for the scheme. I dont see Stroud excelling in this scheme, nor do I see him commanding any double teams like Wilfork or Jenkins do.

I would love for the Bills to go after Richard Seymour in free agency, and possibly draft a DT in the first. I doubt Suh is there, but maybe if we pick within the top 6 we can get lucky. We would need an extra LB and 2 DE's to run this scheme IMO. However, we need our coach first.

[kernowboy]

I think Gabe Watson has been playing NT at Arizona and is a FA - might be an interesting pick up.

There are plenty of 3-4 DE available in R2 likely to include Cameron Hayward, Vince Oghoobaase, Jared Odrick, Mike Neal, Allen Bailey and Arthur Jones.

We can also look at OLB like Shawn Merriman and Chris Gocong

[kernowboy]

I think Gabe Watson has been playing NT at Arizona and is a FA - might be an interesting pick up.

There are plenty of 3-4 DE available in R2 likely to include Cameron Hayward, Vince Oghoobaase, Jared Odrick, Mike Neal, Allen Bailey and Arthur Jones.

We can also look at OLB like Shawn Merriman and Chris Gocong

[BuffaloBlitz83]

The GB Packers sure transitioned quickly. Many doubted them due to personnel.

[Prov401]

The GB Packers sure transitioned quickly. Many doubted them due to personnel.

They struggled a bit early on, but I think it was more of an adjustment to the scheme rather than not having the personell.

A.J Hawk, Clay Matthews, Nick Barnett, Ryan Pickett, and Johnny Jolly are all very very good players. Buffalo doesnt have that.

[realdealryan]

The Vikings have had enough success this year without it. Personnel. If you have a dominating NT (we don't), then run it.

But the Broncos unleashed Dumervil with it. I dunno.

[The Juice Is Loose]

Well I'll tell ya what, Green Bay is running the 3-4 and Clay Matthews, rookie, drafted way after Maybin, has 7 sacks.

[methos4ever]

Well I'll tell ya what, Green Bay is running the 3-4 and Clay Matthews, rookie, drafted way after Maybin, has 7 sacks.
I think the difference with Clay is that he played in a 3-4 this year at SC at linebacker, so it wasn't that much of a transition for him. Especially given his history from walk on to full scholarship to 1st rounder. That dude is special.

But like someone said, we don't necessarily need the 3-4 to be the silver bullet to our defensive ills. Heck, if we took a page out of the Cards book with the right personnel using a 3-4 change-up could only help. But I don't think we should look at the 3-4 as the thing that will save the defense, because our roster isn't really built for it.

[Jan Reimers]

I've always been of the opinion that good players are far more important than systems. We need better players to play either the 4-3 or the 3-4 well.

[OpIv37]

I hate the c2 but the reality is that we're not even close personnel wise. At a minimum, we'd need a true NT, 1-2 de's (Spencer johnson might suffice as a 3-4 de), 2 lb's, a better man-to-man cb to replace McGee and depth at every position.

I'm not opposed to switching but let's not fool ourselves. We are 2-3 off-seasons away from having a legit 3-4 d.

[yordad]

We ran some 3-4 a couple weeks back, and we looked better then we had in years defensively.

[OpIv37]

We ran some 3-4 a couple weeks back, and we looked better then we had in years defensively.
That wasn't a true 3-4. It was more like a 3-1-3 with Schobel playing a sort of roving LB role. Interesting and effective, but not a 3-4.

[Pinkerton Security]

Why is the 3-4 everyone's favorite defense? is it just because we dont run it (ie. the grass is greener..), or just because it is generally a more attacking-style defense instead of our passive style? I personally have been fairly happy with our D this year, once again the D hasnt even come close to being our biggest issue. if we had a even remotely effective offense, our D would look even better because of the rest, and I feel we would have a winning record. our D is the only thing saving us from being winless.

[HHURRICANE]

Stroud, Johnson, and Williams are solid players. I loved how everyone said that if we strengthened the DTs our DEs would play better. Well, that was a fallacy.

Bottom line is that the cover 2 doesn't work because our pass rushers don't get to the QB...ever and our LBs aren't that fast.

Jared Allen was getting double and triple teamed Sunday night. Schobel is never double teamed and he's our best pass rusher.

[methos4ever]

Like Jan said, if we had the right personnel regardless of scheme we'd be fine. If we add beef to the 4-3 we have, cover 2, tampa 2 or not it'd be solid. There are tons of teams that run a 4-3 with either the old school cover 2 or tampa 2 that are successful.

And with those coverages in mind, our one gap scheme (regardless of coverage behind it) with a bigger DT and a stout LB at Mike can do damage. Keep our linebackers clean from the o-linemen and I think you'll see a difference.

And the sugar rush (the 3-1-3 look we had) is something can be used as a 3rd and long wrinkle to help with the pass rush.

[methos4ever]

Stroud, Johnson, and Williams are solid players. I loved how everyone said that if we strengthened the DTs our DEs would play better. Well, that was a fallacy.

Bottom line is that the cover 2 doesn't work because our pass rushers don't get to the QB...ever and our LBs aren't that fast.

Jared Allen was getting double and triple teamed Sunday night. Schobel is never double teamed and he's our best pass rusher.
You're right about the DTs, HH, but there is a need for a fourth guy. Between McCargo, Mace and occassionally Denney, there is no legit guy that can whup people in the middle like Stroud, Williams and even Johnson can.

[Mahdi]

I have been wanting it for years and I was wondering what other people thought. I think we have the personel minus a D-end.

RDE: Spencer Johnson
DT: Marcus Stroud
LDE: Free agent/ Draft pick
ROLB: Schobel
ILB: Kawika Mitchell
ILB: Poz
LOLB: Maybin

Secondary is set.... Let me know what you think...
Actually we have the DEs in theory. We need a true NT. Stroud is too tall to be a NT in a 3-4. He is ideal size for a DE in a 3-4 though. 6'6 310 is perfect for a 5-technique.

We actually have a NT type on the roster. Ronnie Harvey was signed to our practice squad last week. He is in the mold of a 3-4 NT and that was his projected position coming out of college. He's 6'3 342 which is the opposite of the type of DL our scheme typically signs.

I find that signing very interesting when it comes to Mike Shannahan. He made it clear he wants to run a 3-4 and this signing came right after the meeting with him and Russ. I see it very possible that he told Russ to start looking for players that can fit next year's scheme and stash them on the PS.

Just a theory though obviously. Cause I dont see why we would sign this guy otherwise.

[Mahdi]

Hmmm... also very interesting. We signed DT Rashaad Duncan to our practice squad 6 days ago.

Another possible NT in a 3-4. He is 6'2 315 which makes him a candidate to play that position.

[methos4ever]

I find that signing very interesting when it comes to Mike Shannahan. He made it clear he wants to run a 3-4 and this signing came right after the meeting with him and Russ. I see it very possible that he told Russ to start looking for players that can fit next year's scheme and stash them on the PS.

Just a theory though obviously. Cause I dont see why we would sign this guy otherwise.

I think we could use that guy in a 4-3 as well too Mahdi. Remember, Mt. Washington was a Bear after we got rid of him and he helped implode whatever run game came their way enroute to Jauron's COY.

[Mahdi]

I think we could use that guy in a 4-3 as well too Mahdi. Remember, Mt. Washington was a Bear after we got rid of him and he helped implode whatever run game came their way enroute to Jauron's COY.
I agree. He can be used in a 4-3. But not in a cover 2. We have not signed a DL that heavy in 5 years and now suddenly we stash one on the practice squad after meeting with Shannahan.

Its interesting. Maybe means nothing. But could.

[yordad]

That wasn't a true 3-4. It was more like a 3-1-3 with Schobel playing a sort of roving LB role. Interesting and effective, but not a 3-4.Many 3-4 use their rush LB in a roving role. Heck, some 3-4 have several roving LBs.

And, if that is how you want to define it, I seen a 2-1-x at times. I assume they were in a nickle and I didn't count LBs. There were plays were there was no down lineman on the right side at all. Schobel started there but wrapped around and rushed the middle pre-snap.

[TigerJ]

I'm not one who thinks the Tampa 2 is hopeless, but I sure wouldn't mind a good 3-4 that is aggressive and uses zone blitzing and other stuff to harrass and confuse offenses.

[ServoBillieves]

Ryan Pickett is a FA this year... we lost the lotto on him when we picked up Larry "why am I in the NFL" Tripplett. Him, Stroud, and Johnson would be OK in my book on the line, with Schobel, Maybin, Kelsay, and Mitchell switching around on the outside. Pair Poz with a competent ILB and that's a good looking defense.

[BillsOwnAll]

The GB Packers sure transitioned quickly. Many doubted them due to personnel.
The packers LB core is alot stronger then the bills.

[DraftBoy]

I would prefer we move to a NYG 4-3 attacking style defense that Spags used to run there. Get aggressive on the corners with bump and run, safeities run a cover 2 umbrella, and you let your LB's and DL bring pressure all day.

[madness]

The GB Packers sure transitioned quickly. Many doubted them due to personnel.

Also... 49ers, Saints, Broncos Jets all switched from a 4-3 last year.

[madness]

I would prefer we move to a NYG 4-3 attacking style defense that Spags used to run there. Get aggressive on the corners with bump and run, safeities run a cover 2 umbrella, and you let your LB's and DL bring pressure all day.

Same here but I like the 3-4 version of that same defense. I like the extra LB on the field especially if you know how to disguise your coverages and blitz packages. OL like 4-3's because they immediately know it's "big on big". The 3-4 puts more pressure on the OL and QB to make the correct assignments since you never know where the pressure is coming from.

[DraftBoy]

Same here but I like the 3-4 version of that same defense. I like the extra LB on the field especially if you know how to disguise your coverages and blitz packages. OL like 4-3's because they immediately know it's "big on big". The 3-4 puts more pressure on the OL and QB to make the correct assignments since you never know where the pressure is coming from.


Keep in mind you can disgusie things with the 4-3. Something the Giants did was they would put 4 DE's on the line, no DT's. Making all OL have to deal with uber quick lineman as opposed to bullrushes. Then they would run double stunts and blitz the LB up the middle, assignments were tough to pick up that way too. You can also zone blitz very effectively from this style.

Also I like the idea of only going two down line man and having my ends come to the line standing straight up. Not sure who is coming then, the LB or the DE. Lots of variations can be run to disguise the 4-3 blitz schemes.

[BillsFanCupp38]

Why is the 3-4 everyone's favorite defense? is it just because we dont run it (ie. the grass is greener..), or just because it is generally a more attacking-style defense instead of our passive style? I personally have been fairly happy with our D this year, once again the D hasnt even come close to being our biggest issue. if we had a even remotely effective offense, our D would look even better because of the rest, and I feel we would have a winning record. our D is the only thing saving us from being winless.

Although the D is better than the offense this year, I still do not think it is anything to brag about. My favorite D is the 3-4 because that is the one we used to go to all them superbowls and the D we used in the late 90's when we had the #1 Defense :cp:

[HHURRICANE]

Somebody just nailed it here. It's less about the scheme and more about the players executing it.

It's sad that our team is void of any proven stars on either side of the ball.

If your brought back Winfield or Pat Williams they would instantly be our best players.

The drfating on this team has been piss poor.

[jamze132]

Right now, I'm for any defense other than the Crap 2 we currently run.

[Demon]

The Vikings have had enough success this year without it. Personnel. If you have a dominating NT (we don't), then run it.

But the Broncos unleashed Dumervil with it. I dunno.

I heard on SC few days ago most of the top teams all run the 4-3.... the 3-4 may look and sound better but many teams have more success running the 4-3. Colts, Saints and Viks all run the 4-3.

Anyone have a list of which teams run the 4-3 as opposed to the 3-4 and their records?

[Mahdi]

I heard on SC few days ago most of the top teams all run the 4-3.... the 3-4 may look and sound better but many teams have more success running the 4-3. Colts, Saints and Viks all run the 4-3.

Anyone have a list of which teams run the 4-3 as opposed to the 3-4 and their records?
Saints, Colts, Vikings, Giants, Eagles, Bears run a 4-3.

Pats, Boys, Steelers, Chargers, Broncos, Jets, Dolphins run a 3-4.

All are good defenses. Its about the players and the DC not the scheme.

[Night Train]

3-4 or 4-3..whatever works.

Just bury the Cover 2 forever. I never wish to see that again. :down:

[Ingtar33]

I heard on SC few days ago most of the top teams all run the 4-3.... the 3-4 may look and sound better but many teams have more success running the 4-3. Colts, Saints and Viks all run the 4-3.

Anyone have a list of which teams run the 4-3 as opposed to the 3-4 and their records?

Last 10 SB champs

Steelers: 3-4
Giants: 4-3
Colts: 4-3 (Tampa 2)
Steelers: 3-4
Patriots: 3-4
Patriots: 3-4
Buccaneers: 4-3 (Tampa 2)
Patriots: 3-4/4-3 hybrid - in the superbowl they mostly ran a base 3-4 look
Ravens: 4-3
Rams: 4-3 (Tampa 2 - i think)

5 - 43 looks
4 - 34 looks
1 - hybrid look

[methos4ever]

3-4 or 4-3..whatever works.

Just bury the Cover 2 forever. I never wish to see that again. :down:
That's a coverage though NT, EVERY team runs it at some point during a game.

[Typ0]

I don't care what defense we run but I don't want to see any more of this 7 yards off the receivers when it's 3rd and 5. That alone tells me Fewell is less than desirable as any type of coach on a football team.

[billistic]

I have been wanting it for years and I was wondering what other people thought. I think we have the personel minus a D-end.

RDE: Spencer Johnson
DT: Marcus Stroud
LDE: Free agent/ Draft pick
ROLB: Schobel
ILB: Kawika Mitchell
ILB: Poz
LOLB: Maybin

Secondary is set.... Let me know what you think...

None of the Bills current front seven fit a 3/4. There isn't a nose tackle to be found. The current DEs are way too lacking in power to take on OTs and/or pulling guards. The OLBs are too puny/non-existent. Maybe, with 2-3 years of coaching, Maybin might be OK, but maybe not. Kawika...? I doubt if Plaster Arm Poslusny could cut it on the inside, and who else is there?

McGee is set, and maybe Byrd. Whitner and the rest are OK at best.

Not to mention where the 3/4 DC expertise is going to come from.

[kernowboy]

Two free agents who could be reasonably signed are

NT Gabe Watson, Arizona 6ft4, 329lbs

OLB Chris Gocong, Philadelphia 6ft2, 263lbs

We wouldn't need to break the bank for either I think

[billistic]

3-4 or 4-3..whatever works.

Just bury the Cover 2 forever. I never wish to see that again. :down:
All 32 teams play the Cover 2 (which refers only to the responsibilities of the DBs) frequently, namely almost all obvious passing situations, except some in the red zone. You are probably refering to the Tampa 2 (which refers to the integrated responsibilities of the entire defense).

[Mahdi]

None of the Bills current front seven fit a 3/4. There isn't a nose tackle to be found. The current DEs are way too lacking in power to take on OTs and/or pulling guards. The OLBs are too puny/non-existent. Maybe, with 2-3 years of coaching, Maybin might be OK, but maybe not. Kawika...? I doubt if Plaster Arm Poslusny could cut it on the inside, and who else is there?

McGee is set, and maybe Byrd. Whitner and the rest are OK at best.

Not to mention where the 3/4 DC expertise is going to come from.
Stroud and Sp. Johnson are fits at DE.

Poz and Mitchell would be a solid ILB tandem and Maybin can be a very good rush OLB.

[billistic]

Stroud and Sp. Johnson are fits at DE.

Poz and Mitchell would be a solid ILB tandem and Maybin can be a very good rush OLB.

Stroud has NEVER played nose guard. It's a whole different strategy, namely playing two gap, than what he's used to, that is playing sometimes 3 or 4 technique in the 4/3. He'd be a 30 year old rookie.

Spencer cannot get any pressure at tackle, so why do you think he could play 3/4 DE? He's got no moves, and he's slower than blank. I think Kyle Williams might fit there (he's the ONLY possible fit for a 3/4 DE), but certainly not Johnson.

Since the front 3 don't exist (except in certain peoples' imaginations), it's sheer speculation about the ILBs and OLBs. Posluszny can't stay on the field except for a game here and there. Mitchell hasn't played ILB in years, and he's not very good anyway. Maybin is a chicken's tooth at this point.

So, the Bills, who have drafted for several years (unsuccesfully) to get 4/3, front seven players, are supposed to retrofit their goons into a system they're even more ill-suited to fit?

***laughter***

[Mahdi]

Stroud has NEVER played nose guard. It's a whole different strategy, namely playing two gap, than what he's used to, that is playing sometimes 3 or 4 technique in the 4/3. He'd be a 30 year old rookie.

Spencer cannot get any pressure at tackle, so why do you think he could play 3/4 DE? He's got no moves, and he's slower than blank. I think Kyle Williams might fit there (he's the ONLY possible fit for a 3/4 DE), but certainly not Johnson.

Since the front 3 don't exist (except in certain peoples' imaginations), it's sheer speculation about the ILBs and OLBs. Posluszny can't stay on the field except for a game here and there. Mitchell hasn't played ILB in years, and he's not very good anyway. Maybin is a chicken's tooth at this point.

So, the Bills, who have drafted for several years (unsuccesfully) to get 4/3, front seven players, are supposed to retrofit their goons into a system they're even more ill-suited to fit?

***laughter***
Ok.

First of all you didn't read my post.

I said Stroud and Johnson are fits at DE, I did not say Stroud could play NT because I dont believe he can. He is too tall to be a NT in a 3-4.

Second, Sp. Johnson is very similar in size to many 5-technique DEs in the league. He is 6'3 290 which makes him a good candidate at DE.

Kyle Williams is way too short to be a DE in a 3-4. To be a 5-tech you have to be tall and preferably have long arms, which is why Stroud and Johnson are much better fits at DE, Stroud being the ideal fit.

Third you have to understand what the role of a 5-technique is in a 3-4. There job is not to be pass rushers, its just to hold their man. If you are lucky enough to have a player like Seymour or Darnell Dockett who can hold up and rush the passer then that's great but I will settle for a guy like Aaron Smith in Pitt who just eats up blockers and racks up about 3-4 sacks a year.

We currently have a guy on the roster named Lonnie Harvey. Kid is 6'3 342, which is perfect for a 3-4 NT. He may be what we need to make the switch to the 3-4 if that is what the new coach wants, or he may be depth at NT.

Maybin and Ellis are both candidates for OLB as both have the speed, athleticism and size to play that position.

And as I mentioned before I think Poz and Mitchell would be good fits as an ILB pairing because the both move well and are sure tacklers.

Of course we would still have to go out and sign more defensive players that fit the scheme and have experience in it.

I would be all over the idea of going after Elvis Dumervil who is a FA this offseason, depending on the CBA being signed of course.

[ServoBillieves]

Speaking of ILB, what ever happened to DiGi? We waived him, then resigned, then... I got nothin. Also, don't forget Buggsy was doing a pretty damn good job in the middle til he was injured.

[Mahdi]

Speaking of ILB, what ever happened to DiGi? We waived him, then resigned, then... I got nothin. Also, don't forget Buggsy was doing a pretty damn good job in the middle til he was injured.
Buggs is way too light to be an ILB in a 3-4. Way too short too.

[ddaryl]

I HATE THE 4-3

I don't mind it being used sparingly in situations, but the bread and butter D is the 3-4. IMO.

I just like the options the 3-4 offers over the 4-3

[kernowboy]

Signing Gabe Watson from the Cards gives an automatic 3-4 NT, Dwan Edwards from Baltimore a 3-4 DE and Chris Gocong or Darryl Tapp a 3-4 OLB

None would break the bank

[ddaryl]

Somebody just nailed it here. It's less about the scheme and more about the players executing it.

It's sad that our team is void of any proven stars on either side of the ball.

If your brought back Winfield or Pat Williams they would instantly be our best players.

The drfating on this team has been piss poor.


I still don't like the 4-3... I believe the 3-4 is more forgiving and gives many more options

[Mahdi]

Signing Gabe Watson from the Cards gives an automatic 3-4 NT, Dwan Edwards from Baltimore a 3-4 DE and Chris Gocong or Darryl Tapp a 3-4 OLB

None would break the bank
I like the idea of signing Daryl Tapp as an OLB. Reminds me of Dumervil.

I would also like to sign Kevin Vickerson to play DE. He is the perfect size for the position and holds up well.

Not big on Gocong. Not athletic enough and not good enough as a pass rusher.

[Mr. Pink]

NT in the 3-4 is extremely important.

You can't just sign some scrubs to the PS because they have size and think that's all you need to do.

It's hard to get a NT to anchor a 3-4, especially with about half the teams in the league playing that style of defense right now.

The funny part is defensive schemes change all the time, by the time we acquire the players to fit a 3-4 scheme, another scheme will be in vogue.

[Mahdi]

NT in the 3-4 is extremely important.

You can't just sign some scrubs to the PS because they have size and think that's all you need to do.

It's hard to get a NT to anchor a 3-4, especially with about half the teams in the league playing that style of defense right now.

The funny part is defensive schemes change all the time, by the time we acquire the players to fit a 3-4 scheme, another scheme will be in vogue.
Some of the best NTs in the league are low draft choices or not drafted at all. Reason being you dont have to be all that talented to play the position. It requires a certain size player that can anchor down. Which is why most 3-4 NTs are heavy and short.

Pat Williams - Undrafted - Is not a 3-4 NT but could do it easily.

Jay Ratliff - 7th round

Jason Ferguson - 7th round

Gabe Watson- 4th round

Kelly Gregg - 6th round

Ronald Fields - (Broncos) - 5th round

Aubrayo Franklin - (Niners) - 5th round

None of these guys were drafted high, none of these guys were highly touted coming out, yet they are all in the same basic mold, short and stout, and do a solid job playing the NT spot.

Of course having a big time player there like Rogers, Jenkins, Wilfork, Hampton and Jamal Williams is great, but you dont need a first day pick at NT to run a 3-4. You pretty much can grab a guy off the street as many teams have shown.

[billistic]

Ok.

First of all you didn't read my post.

I said Stroud and Johnson are fits at DE, I did not say Stroud could play NT because I dont believe he can. He is too tall to be a NT in a 3-4.

Second, Sp. Johnson is very similar in size to many 5-technique DEs in the league. He is 6'3 290 which makes him a good candidate at DE.

Kyle Williams is way too short to be a DE in a 3-4. To be a 5-tech you have to be tall and preferably have long arms, which is why Stroud and Johnson are much better fits at DE, Stroud being the ideal fit.

Third you have to understand what the role of a 5-technique is in a 3-4. There job is not to be pass rushers, its just to hold their man. If you are lucky enough to have a player like Seymour or Darnell Dockett who can hold up and rush the passer then that's great but I will settle for a guy like Aaron Smith in Pitt who just eats up blockers and racks up about 3-4 sacks a year.

We currently have a guy on the roster named Lonnie Harvey. Kid is 6'3 342, which is perfect for a 3-4 NT. He may be what we need to make the switch to the 3-4 if that is what the new coach wants, or he may be depth at NT.

Maybin and Ellis are both candidates for OLB as both have the speed, athleticism and size to play that position.

And as I mentioned before I think Poz and Mitchell would be good fits as an ILB pairing because the both move well and are sure tacklers.

Of course we would still have to go out and sign more defensive players that fit the scheme and have experience in it.

I would be all over the idea of going after Elvis Dumervil who is a FA this offseason, depending on the CBA being signed of course.

I read your insipid post.

My statement that the Bills cannot play a 3-4 front 7 using the current personnel is perfectly true.

Stroud is no nose tackle, and thanks to Levy and the FO idiots, we dont have Ngata who is similar to the Cowboys super, 305 pound speedster NT, Jay Ratliff. I truly scoff at Lonnie Harvey. Fat does not make a NT. Size (height, weight) are secondary considerations.

Williams might be a decent DE as he can occupy the tackle and TE on running plays and create enough pressure to stress the quarterback in passing situations. Did Richard Seymour ever get any sacks, Slick?

The Bills dont have a solitary LB who could play 3-4 OLB. Talk of converting 4-3 DEs (like Spencer Johnson) into OLBs is plain silly. He cannot beat a OT to the QB. He cannot chase a running back to the corner or keep containment on the edge. Hes a stiff.

Who cares if Posluszny or Mitchell might play ILB? Not that they could.

[Ingtar33]

I read your insipid post.

My statement that the Bills cannot play a 3-4 front 7 using the current personnel is perfectly true.

Stroud is no nose tackle, and thanks to Levy and the FO idiots, we dont have Ngata who is similar to the Cowboys super, 305 pound speedster NT, Jay Ratliff. I truly scoff at Lonnie Harvey. Fat does not make a NT. Size (height, weight) are secondary considerations.

Williams might be a decent DE as he can occupy the tackle and TE on running plays and create enough pressure to stress the quarterback in passing situations. Did Richard Seymour ever get any sacks, Slick?

The Bills dont have a solitary LB who could play 3-4 OLB. Talk of converting 4-3 DEs (like Spencer Johnson) into OLBs is plain silly. He cannot beat a OT to the QB. He cannot chase a running back to the corner or keep containment on the edge. Hes a stiff.

Who cares if Posluszny or Mitchell might play ILB? Not that they could.

Partially right... you make some pretty wild guesses here and a few mistakes. First of all, Ngata plays Defensive End for the ravens, not NT.

Spencer Johnson and Marcus Stroud would make serviceable 34 DE, nothing to write home about, but they could do it. Kyle Williams, probably could see the field at NT, though i dislike his size... he would not be my choice for a NT. But if i was taking over the Bills today, and my plan was to play 34... that's what i would do with him.

Schobel, Maybin, Kelsey and Denney would have little role on this team. Denney probably could make the switch to 5 technique, though he's miserable playing 2 gap... perhaps if he put on some weight he'd manage to save his roster spot. Schobel and Maybin probably could try to swap to OLB. They're both fast enough, and though they're a little small they'd do better there then anywhere else.

Mitchell would have to move inside with Pos... though neither would be perfect for the spot they wouldn't be horrible at it. Find a 5th lb'er... some sort of true OLB for the 34 and your front 7 has been completely transformed.

Really looking at it like this and you're really talking about 2 new must have starters on the front 7... a NT and an OLB. Fill in some role-players and depth. draft a real 34 MLB, and in one off season you've probably transformed the front 7

now the question would be... "can they play?" not sure. I can't imagine that front 7 would be any worse then our current front 7.


either way... if we keep a 43 or go to a 34 we just don't have the players up front to be successful on this roster. Our ends are not good.. the DTs are average at best... and the DLine... amazingly is the strength of the front 7. The linebacking corps is a joke (which i warned you all of back in preseason). So we have an bellow average D-line and a terrible linebacking corps.

you can't win with that.

[billistic]

Partially right... you make some pretty wild guesses here and a few mistakes. First of all, Ngata plays Defensive End for the ravens, not NT.

Spencer Johnson and Marcus Stroud would make serviceable 34 DE, nothing to write home about, but they could do it. Kyle Williams, probably could see the field at NT, though i dislike his size... he would not be my choice for a NT. But if i was taking over the Bills today, and my plan was to play 34... that's what i would do with him.

Schobel, Maybin, Kelsey and Denney would have little role on this team. Denney probably could make the switch to 5 technique, though he's miserable playing 2 gap... perhaps if he put on some weight he'd manage to save his roster spot. Schobel and Maybin probably could try to swap to OLB. They're both fast enough, and though they're a little small they'd do better there then anywhere else.

Mitchell would have to move inside with Pos... though neither would be perfect for the spot they wouldn't be horrible at it. Find a 5th lb'er... some sort of true OLB for the 34 and your front 7 has been completely transformed.

Really looking at it like this and you're really talking about 2 new must have starters on the front 7... a NT and an OLB. Fill in some role-players and depth. draft a real 34 MLB, and in one off season you've probably transformed the front 7

now the question would be... "can they play?" not sure. I can't imagine that front 7 would be any worse then our current front 7.


either way... if we keep a 43 or go to a 34 we just don't have the players up front to be successful on this roster. Our ends are not good.. the DTs are average at best... and the DLine... amazingly is the strength of the front 7. The linebacking corps is a joke (which i warned you all of back in preseason). So we have an bellow average D-line and a terrible linebacking corps.

you can't win with that.

Thanks fior the tip, but I think everybody knows that Haloti plays DT and not NT for the Ravens, since the Ravens don't use a NT in their 4-3 scheme. My point was that a Ngata-type NT (immensely strong, yet very nimble) might very likely be an impact NT just like Jayt Ratliff. That is the future (for the lucky team that has such an athlete). Perhaps Johnson and Stroud would be serviceable 3/4 DEs, in the same manner as they are currently "serviceable" DTs in the Bills awful 4/3 (no, not Spencer, he stinks, and never was or will be anything but a nearly-adequate rotational fill in). So where's the improvement. Having them play an unfamiliar technique only makes them worse than now. I think I already said the current LB corps is essentially crap, healthy or otherwise. My only guess was that Kyle might make a fair 3/4 DE. I think he can occupy a OT and TE or pulling guard, and one-on-one, could collapse the pocket on an inside move from 3/4 DE. He's surprisingly quick.

[Ingtar33]

Thanks fior the tip, but I think everybody knows that Haloti plays DT and not NT for the Ravens, since the Ravens don't use a NT in their 4-3 scheme. My point was that a Ngata-type NT (immensely strong, yet very nimble) might very likely be an impact NT just like Jayt Ratliff. That is the future (for the lucky team that has such an athlete). Perhaps Johnson and Stroud would be serviceable 3/4 DEs, in the same manner as they are currently "serviceable" DTs in the Bills awful 4/3 (no, not Spencer, he stinks, and never was or will be anything but a nearly-adequate rotational fill in). So where's the improvement. Having them play an unfamiliar technique only makes them worse than now. I think I already said the current LB corps is essentially crap, healthy or otherwise. My only guess was that Kyle might make a fair 3/4 DE. I think he can occupy a OT and TE or pulling guard, and one-on-one, could collapse the pocket on an inside move from 3/4 DE. He's surprisingly quick.


the ravens used a 34 last time i checked so you're simply wrong. it's not a "traditional" 34, rather a hybrid that lines up the RE over the outside shoulder of the guard in the 3 technique, to shield Ray Lewis, and allow him to roam free. But it still employs 3 linemen, and 4 linebackers... and while you might want to bicker over Ngata's title, by every definition of the word he plays DE. Granted, in the grand scheme of things it's more analogous to an undertackle... then an actual DE. But it's still the last defensive lineman on the line. hence... he's an end.

[BillsWin]

we'll need a space eating 3-4 NT. I've heard it is a good draft for them. Maybe we can get a brute in the third or fourth.

[kernowboy]

We can easily pick up a 3-4 DE in the first 3 rounds of the draft.

Mike Neal, Jared Odrick, Arthur Jones, Vince Ogbohaase, Tyson Alualu as well as possible juniors such as Allen Bailey and Cameron Heyward could well be available. Later in the draft will be potential guys such as Corey Peters and Alex Carrington will be available.

As for NT, the likes of Jay Ross, Ekom Udofia and Torrell Tropp will be available on Day 3 but we could look to uprade in FA before the draft with the massive Gabe Watson.

I don't see that in making the transition we are worse off than when Denver made the switch

[billistic]

the ravens used a 34 last time i checked so you're simply wrong. it's not a "traditional" 34, rather a hybrid that lines up the RE over the outside shoulder of the guard in the 3 technique, to shield Ray Lewis, and allow him to roam free. But it still employs 3 linemen, and 4 linebackers... and while you might want to bicker over Ngata's title, by every definition of the word he plays DE. Granted, in the grand scheme of things it's more analogous to an undertackle... then an actual DE. But it's still the last defensive lineman on the line. hence... he's an end.
Seems to be a semantics problem, but see:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=9598 (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=9598http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=9598)


Haloti Ngata, #92, DT
The Ravens official site refers the Ngata as follows:

http://www.baltimoreravens.com/People/Players/Active/Haloti_Ngata.aspx


Dominant lineman who has blossomed into one of the NFL’s premier DTs

If you want to call him a DE in a hybrid 3-4, that's fine with me, but see:
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Football-Instruction-2069/Football-Defensive-Line.htm

The point is that he's got the quickness and power (340 pound rugby player) to be a premier collapse-the-pocket NT in a 3-4, much as Jay Ratliff of the Cowboys. His moves are always inside. I've never seen him make a single 5-technique move.

[Mahdi]

I read your insipid post.

My statement that the Bills cannot play a 3-4 front 7 using the current personnel is perfectly true.

Stroud is no nose tackle, and thanks to Levy and the FO idiots, we dont have Ngata who is similar to the Cowboys super, 305 pound speedster NT, Jay Ratliff. I truly scoff at Lonnie Harvey. Fat does not make a NT. Size (height, weight) are secondary considerations.

Williams might be a decent DE as he can occupy the tackle and TE on running plays and create enough pressure to stress the quarterback in passing situations. Did Richard Seymour ever get any sacks, Slick?

The Bills dont have a solitary LB who could play 3-4 OLB. Talk of converting 4-3 DEs (like Spencer Johnson) into OLBs is plain silly. He cannot beat a OT to the QB. He cannot chase a running back to the corner or keep containment on the edge. Hes a stiff.

Who cares if Posluszny or Mitchell might play ILB? Not that they could.
K you clearly have issues with reading... BOTH me and Ingtar have already stated that Stroud would be a DE NOT A NT, yet you continue to rant about how Stroud cannot play NT.

The 3-4 has NO DTs. The 3-4 is comprised of 2 DEs (called 5-technique) in technical terms and one NT.

Myself and Ingtar are saying that Stroud and Johnson can be converted to 5-technique DEs.

As I have already shown you dont need a first round pick to come in and play NT for you. You just have to find the right fit.

Jay Ratliff was a 7th rounder.

And no, Kyle Williams cannot play 5-technique because he is way too short. And one of the main criteria for a 5-tech is height. Quickness is not a requirement so even KW's strengths dont translate to 5-tech.

[billistic]

K you clearly have issues with reading... BOTH me and Ingtar have already stated that Stroud would be a DE NOT A NT, yet you continue to rant about how Stroud cannot play NT.
Listen, Slick: The TO proposed that Stroud could play NT, which he cannot.

My posts were aimed at the general notion that the Bills can suddenly morph from the current gaggle of supreme 4-3 losers into a respectable 3-4 front seven. They cannot. If you differ, you're an idiot. If you don't differ, shut your pie hole.

Additionally, I lament that the Bills FO trumped drafting who might have been the key NT, Ngata, in favor of Whitner. I don't care which round the player comes at, 1st or 7th makes no difference. The player's ability is what counts. The Bills got Whitner, and the Ravens got Ngata. Whitner is a puff of smoke, and Ngata will anchor the inside of the Ravens front for a decade. This hurts when you can't stop the run. Get it?

The front 3 in the 3-4 have to have the ability to occupy two OL (or a TE) on running plays. The DE's have the additional responsibility to pressure the pocket on passing plays, vis. Richard Seymour. This the current Bills cannot do. Maybe you're right, tall zombies make for great DEs. There's more than one way to close off a passing lane, but there's no substitute for quickness in applying pressure on the QB.

[Dying_-2-_Live]

Anyone else like to see Suh as a DE in the 3-4?

[Ingtar33]

Anyone else like to see Suh as a DE in the 3-4?


he's about the right size for it. Maybe a little heavier then you want. But he seems to play great 2 gap in that huskers-longhorns game. so he'd probably succeed no matter where you put him

[Dying_-2-_Live]

he's about the right size for it. Maybe a little heavier then you want. But he seems to play great 2 gap in that huskers-longhorns game. so he'd probably succeed no matter where you put him

I see him being an absolute monster as a DE in the 3-4

[kernowboy]

As long as we dump the Tampa2 I'd be happy to remain with a 4-3 as long as it is far more aggressive.

Ditch this 'bend but don't break nonsense' - bring the rain, all out attack

I'd rather we got occasionally beaten by a big play rather than suffer a death by a thousand small cuts which is the Tampa 2

[Mahdi]

Listen, Slick: The TO proposed that Stroud could play NT, which he cannot.

My posts were aimed at the general notion that the Bills can suddenly morph from the current gaggle of supreme 4-3 losers into a respectable 3-4 front seven. They cannot. If you differ, you're an idiot. If you don't differ, shut your pie hole.

Additionally, I lament that the Bills FO trumped drafting who might have been the key NT, Ngata, in favor of Whitner. I don't care which round the player comes at, 1st or 7th makes no difference. The player's ability is what counts. The Bills got Whitner, and the Ravens got Ngata. Whitner is a puff of smoke, and Ngata will anchor the inside of the Ravens front for a decade. This hurts when you can't stop the run. Get it?

The front 3 in the 3-4 have to have the ability to occupy two OL (or a TE) on running plays. The DE's have the additional responsibility to pressure the pocket on passing plays, vis. Richard Seymour. This the current Bills cannot do. Maybe you're right, tall zombies make for great DEs. There's more than one way to close off a passing lane, but there's no substitute for quickness in applying pressure on the QB.
Denver had a bottom three 4-3 defense last year and they managed to "suddenly morph" to a 3-4 this year successfully.

They currently have the league's top pass rusher (Dumervil) who was an undersized 4-3 DE last year. O and Mario Haggan, our old special teamer, plays opposite him.

Their front 3, McBean, Fields and Kenny Peterson had never played in a 3-4 before, neither did DJ Williams.

At the end of the day its not like moving from the 4-3 to a 3-4 is changing sports. Football is Football. Players can be taught different schemes over an offseason and adapt to them.

We currently have more players capable of making the switch to a 3-4 than Denver did at this time last year.

In one offseason we can easily add a starting 3-4 DE, depth at LB and a NT. Its called FA and draft.

And in case one good example isn't enough for you, check the stats for the top defense in the league right now. Its the Green Bay Packers, who were a 4-3 defense last year and who were criticized for making the switch in the offseason.

Again, all it took was one offseason to add a couple of players and some depth guys and a DC who could run it.

And you claim that the current Bills cannot hold the pocket in a 3-4 alignment based on what?

Im Pretty sure Stroud can hold his ground and so can Sp. Johnson. Just because it doesn't work in our scheme now as its being run, it doesn't mean the same guys can't succeed in a different scheme. Stroud and Johnson can be excellent in the 5-technique position.

As for Ngata vs. Whitner, you keep making that point while no one disagrees that Ngata would have been the better pick.

[Mahdi]

he's about the right size for it. Maybe a little heavier then you want. But he seems to play great 2 gap in that huskers-longhorns game. so he'd probably succeed no matter where you put him
He has the ideal size to pretty much play inside in any scheme. At 6'4 300 he is ideal size for a 5-technique. Seymour is 6'6 310 as are most of the top 5's in the league. These days 5-tech guys are hovering between 300-310. So he is right there.

Ideally though, this guy is a 3-technique in a 4-3 with a license to just get into the backfield on every play. That is what he does best. It's almost a waste to see him absorbing blocks in a 3-4.

[billistic]

Mahdi (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/member.php?u=3342) said:
In one offseason we can easily add a starting 3-4 DE, depth at LB and a NT. Its called FA and draft.

"we"?

Yeah, meaning the fools in Ralph Wilson's front orifice?

Nope. fail...

[Mahdi]

Mahdi (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/member.php?u=3342) said:

"we"?

Yeah, meaning the fools in Ralph Wilson's front orifice?

Nope. fail...
Well if that's your view then no scheme, draft pick or FA will ever succeed in Buffalo. Yer pretty much putting a blanket statement on anything the Bills do which makes this whole argument or any other argument moot.

I think its a given that we are assuming the right picks are made. And if we assume that then it is viable to believe that the Bills CAN switch to a 3-4 using their current roster, FA and the draft.

If we assume that nothing they do will work then 3-4 or 4-3 doesn't matter now does it?!

[billistic]

I think its a given that we are assuming the right picks are made. And if we assume that then it is viable to believe that the Bills CAN switch to a 3-4 using their current roster, FA and the draft.

If we assume that nothing they do will work then 3-4 or 4-3 doesn't matter now does it?!

Wow, I admire your liberal use of pronouns. "...we are assuming the right picks are made..."

Why would anyone assume that the current pack of fools would make the right picks? That would be an absolutely stupid assumption in light of "their" history.

The more likely assumption is that "they'll" eff up 70% of the picks, as usual. I don't think that "nothing" will work. Wilson's losers may well hit on 30% of their picks. At that rate, the Bills will continue to be 6-10, or worse.