Latest mock draft on nfldraftcountdown.com

[The Juice Is Loose]

Has us picking 10th.

I think this is proof that we need to root for losses.

If we win a couple more games and pick 10th, it will literally push us out of contention for anybody we actually need.

We'll get stuck picking Dez Bryant, who's Deion's little project, who is going to sign with Eugene Parker, whose going to hold out, I guarantee it.

We better lose out. Roast me if you want, and I understand Bryant's upside. But let's face it, he'll have the same problems TO had last year if we dont' get someone to protect our QB.

http://www.draftcountdown.com/sub/Mock-Draft-A.php Take a looksy.

[patmoran2006]

"stuck" picking Bryant?

[The Juice Is Loose]

Are you saying that picking Bryant will make any difference in the forseeable future?

He won't stop the run, he won't protect the QB. We just draft a WR last year, who we couldn't get anything out of. We signed a future HOF WR, who we can't get anything out of.

We need linemen, linemen, and more linemen. Drafting a WR with the 10th overall pick, a WR who hasn't played in a year, BTW, will destroy us for years.

[The Juice Is Loose]

Not to mention, he will be rep'd by Eugene "Holdout" Parker.

[clumping platelets]

If the fitst 9 picks went that way, we'd be STOOPID not to take Bryant

We lose T.O. and Josh Reed after the season. Stevie Johnson has not been getting any reps, so we will deffenly need to upgrade at WR.....HOWEVER, if the Bills switch to a 3-4, I would reach here and grab Terrence Cody from Alabama

[Beastie Bills]

We need linemen, linemen, and more linemen. Drafting a WR with the 10th overall pick, a WR who hasn't played in a year, BTW, will destroy us for years.

I just don't get why people can't seem to understand this.

I know linemen aren't "sexy" picks (unless I somehow get drafted. OH!), but if you don't at least have a decent line, your QB, WR, RB, ect aren't gonna be able to win games for you.

[madness]

**** Denver!

[Dicknoze69]

I just don't get why people can't seem to understand this.

I know linemen aren't "sexy" picks (unless I somehow get drafted. OH!), but if you don't at least have a decent line, your QB, WR, RB, ect aren't gonna be able to win games for you.

But at the same time, do you reach to take a lineman or do you take the best player available?

[k-oneputt]

I just don't get why people can't seem to understand this.

I know linemen aren't "sexy" picks (unless I somehow get drafted. OH!), but if you don't at least have a decent line, your QB, WR, RB, ect aren't gonna be able to win games for you.

Seems pretty obvious to most, and I even think the Bills are starting to fiqure that out {ten years later}.

[The Juice Is Loose]

If the Top 9 shakes out that way, and we're picking 10th, then yes, you have to take the BPA...I wouldn't want to reach, I would pick Bryant.

BUUUUT. This is where I hope we lose. Picking 10th is too late.

We need a stud DT or OT or LB. Period. I don't want Bradford or Claussen, so that isn't a big deal to me, but if we get a WR, we'll suck again next year.

[Beastie Bills]

But at the same time, do you reach to take a lineman or do you take the best player available?

When you are desperate for help on the line, sometimes you have to reach a little.

If we had "reached" for Oher last year (which I wanted us to do), instead of Maybin, I think it would have worked out pretty well for us.

[Mr. Pink]

When you are desperate for help on the line, sometimes you have to reach a little.

If we had "reached" for Oher last year (which I wanted us to do), instead of Maybin, I think it would have worked out pretty well for us.


We reached for Maybin.

We reached for Whitner.

We reached for McCargo.

The motto of this franchise is reach.

[WeAreArthurMoates]

I do think by this time Dan Williams and Anthony Davis will shoot up the boards and we take one of them. Also Weatherspoon can ball too and I see him getting picked in the top 15.

[DraftBoy]

When you are desperate for help on the line, sometimes you have to reach a little.

If we had "reached" for Oher last year (which I wanted us to do), instead of Maybin, I think it would have worked out pretty well for us.

No you don't reach...ever.

[k-oneputt]

We reached for Maybin.

We reached for Whitner.

We reached for McCargo.

The motto of this franchise is reach.

That is called bad front office management. Can't identify talent. We took Whitner because the old bastard thought we needed a Tampa-2 safety. We all know it should have been Ngata.
Maybin should have been Orakpo.
This defense looks much different today with those two.

[DraftBoy]

If the fitst 9 picks went that way, we'd be STOOPID not to take Bryant

We lose T.O. and Josh Reed after the season. Stevie Johnson has not been getting any reps, so we will deffenly need to upgrade at WR.....HOWEVER, if the Bills switch to a 3-4, I would reach here and grab Terrence Cody from Alabama


I wouldn't grab Cody. He's a lazier player who has a high bust potential, imo.

[WeAreArthurMoates]

I wouldn't grab Cody. He's a lazier player who has a high bust potential, imo.

I agree, and I think after the combine Dan Williams will be the first NT taken. He will probably shoot up the the top 15. He'd be great for us in either a 3-4 or 4-3 but Bruce Campbell will most certainly a top 12 pick as well.

[Beastie Bills]

We reached for Maybin.

We reached for Whitner.

We reached for McCargo.

The motto of this franchise is reach.

You're right. So if we're gonna reach anyways, we should reach for the position that will help us the most.

[Beastie Bills]

No you don't reach...ever.

Wow, thanks for that insight.

[BillsWin]

Dez Bryant will go top five anyway so we don't have to worry about getting "stuck" with him.

[Jan Reimers]

I think you win every game possible, and deal with whatever position that yields you in the draft. I think it would be great to get a playmaker like Bryant in the first round. There will still be good need players in the next few rounds, as well as free agency.

[clumping platelets]

:goodpost:

[ddaryl]

We reached for Maybin.

We reached for Whitner.

We reached for McCargo.

The motto of this franchise is reach.

don't forget Eric Flowers... 2000 draft all part of this same era of patheticness

[ddaryl]

I think you win every game possible, and deal with whatever position that yields you in the draft. I think it would be great to get a playmaker like Bryant in the first round. There will still be good need players in the next few rounds, as well as free agency.

I'm all for them trying, but I am rooting for losses... Wins mean less then nothing to me here on out... In fact I was pretty upset after we beat KC.. Regardless of the argument people will post.. At this junction I find draft position to be more rewarding then winning


I'm all for a "good game" but to watch this pathetic team squeak out butt ugly wins is more painful to me then just losing.


We can draft all the playmakers the world has ever known but until we solidify the QB OL DL and LB position I don't think a playmaker at skill position will have the effect we would want.

[The Juice Is Loose]

I'm all for them trying, but I am rooting for losses... Wins mean less then nothing to me here on out... In fact I was pretty upset after we beat KC.. Regardless of the argument people will post.. At this junction I find draft position to be more rewarding then winning


I'm all for a "good game" but to watch this pathetic team squeak out butt ugly wins is more painful to me then just losing.


We can draft all the playmakers the world has ever known but until we solidify the QB OL DL and LB position I don't think a playmaker at skill position will have the effect we would want.

Exactly. We have weapons. That's all we were talking about all Summer. TO, Lee, Roscoe, Josh, Nelson...We can't get the ball to them.

[Commissioner]

I would love getting "stuck" with Dez Bryant.

[EDS]

I would have to take a long hard look at Bruce Campbell, Anthony Davis and Dan Morgan before pulling the trigger on a receiver given the Bills inability to utilize such assets with its poor QB and line play.

[Philagape]

When you are desperate for help on the line, sometimes you have to reach a little.

If we had "reached" for Oher last year (which I wanted us to do), instead of Maybin, I think it would have worked out pretty well for us.

Which goes to show why the word "reach" is meaningless, because a player's true value isn't known until he plays in the NFL.

[clumping platelets]

After this season, we will only have Evans at WR.........T.O., reed, and Parrish are all gone..........this makes WR as much a priority as DT, OT, LB, QB

[DraftBoy]

Wow, thanks for that insight.


I could go into another long breakdown of the ******ism that plagues fans who think its ok to reach for players at need positions rather than taking stellar play makers that fall to you, but Ive only done that about 17 times and have been proven right again and again by the Bills and other teams.

You want to reach, that's cool. Enjoy 7-9 seasons, personally Id prefer to load this team with talented players and win a super bowl. That's just me though.

[DraftBoy]

Exactly. We have weapons. That's all we were talking about all Summer. TO, Lee, Roscoe, Josh, Nelson...We can't get the ball to them.


Talk about taking a knife to a gun fight. Awesome...

If that's our "weapons" then we don't have a prayer. Only one field stretching player, no seam option, a raw TE who can't block. A WR who is afraid to get hit, and another one who doesnt have the speed or playmaking ability to change a game. The last of the group being old and on the downside of his career.

[DraftBoy]

After this season, we will only have Evans at WR.........T.O., reed, and Parrish are all gone..........this makes WR as much a priority as DT, OT, LB, QB

Steve Johnson will save us, don't you know that!

[clumping platelets]

:doh:

[DesertFox24]

"stuck" picking Bryant?

Yeah I would pissed being forced to pick the next Andre Johnson.

Hell eveyone *****es we have no stars, and then they ***** if a guarenteed star falls to us.

The best thing that ever happened was Heyword bay sucking and Crabtree doing his thing.

Bryant would be a stud pick.

[kernowboy]

It's a rubbish mock because on most others I've seen Bruce Campbell LT in the Top10.

If he was still available at 10th and we didn't take him, the entire scouting unit and management need to be taken out into the parking lot and publically tarred and feathered for a totally pathetic decision.

[DraftBoy]

It's a rubbish mock because on most others I've seen Bruce Campbell LT in the Top10.

If he was still available at 10th and we didn't take him, the entire scouting unit and management need to be taken out into the parking lot and publically tarred and feathered for a totally pathetic decision.


He's not better than Dez Bryant.

[The Juice Is Loose]

Don't you guys regard him not playing this season as a red flag?

Mike Williams, WR, USC. Was a "sure bet"...then he had to sit out a year. Then he went to Detroit, and is no longer in the NFL.

Here come the "He had no QB or Oline"

And then comes my "Exacwy gwasshoppa"

[DraftBoy]

Don't you guys regard him not playing this season as a red flag?

Mike Williams, WR, USC. Was a "sure bet"...then he had to sit out a year. Then he went to Detroit, and is no longer in the NFL.

Here come the "He had no QB or Oline"

And then comes my "Exacwy gwasshoppa"

Bryant played part of this year and was (imo) unfairly suspended by the NCAA. He still practices with his team and workouts. Something Mike Williams could not do.

[Ingtar33]

Has us picking 10th.

I think this is proof that we need to root for losses.

If we win a couple more games and pick 10th, it will literally push us out of contention for anybody we actually need.

We'll get stuck picking Dez Bryant, who's Deion's little project, who is going to sign with Eugene Parker, whose going to hold out, I guarantee it.

We better lose out. Roast me if you want, and I understand Bryant's upside. But let's face it, he'll have the same problems TO had last year if we dont' get someone to protect our QB.

http://www.draftcountdown.com/sub/Mock-Draft-A.php Take a looksy.


we can lose out and end up picking 10th or even 11th anyway (it comes down to strength of schedule, technically we're tied 8-11, but we have one of the stronger records currently and would pick 10th, it is not far off from being one of the strongest records and a few more wins by our opponents this year and we'll drop to 11th even if we lose out)

this year there are a LOT of terrible football teams.

[Beastie Bills]

Which goes to show why the word "reach" is meaningless, because a player's true value isn't known until he plays in the NFL.

Very true.

[Beastie Bills]

I could go into another long breakdown of the ******ism that plagues fans who think its ok to reach for players at need positions rather than taking stellar play makers that fall to you, but Ive only done that about 17 times and have been proven right again and again by the Bills and other teams.

You want to reach, that's cool. Enjoy 7-9 seasons, personally Id prefer to load this team with talented players and win a super bowl. That's just me though.

You can load the team with all the talented players you want. If our OLine is terrible, we're not getting anywhere near the superbowl, unless we buy a ticket.

[kernowboy]

He's not better than Dez Bryant.

He's not worse and he's at a critical need position for the Bills

WR is irrelevant if we have no-one to get him the ball, and no-one to keep him off IR doing so.

Bryant is undoubtledly a good player but drafting him is a bit like building a house and not thinking that foundations to the property wouldn't be a good idea.

[EDS]

He's not better than Dez Bryant.

Dez Bryant probably isn't better than Larry Fitzgerald, but Larry Fitzgerald couldn't catch 50 balls with the bills current QB and o-line play.

To me, Bryant would be a waste without a serious overhaul on the line and at QB. I just don't think the Bills have the resources to fix those other problems if they have utilized their first round pick on a receiver.

I would be happy to be proven wrong though.

[The Juice Is Loose]

Bryant played part of this year and was (imo) unfairly suspended by the NCAA. He still practices with his team and workouts. Something Mike Williams could not do.

Ok draftboy. Since you know everything, let's take a look at R1 receivers over the last 9 drafts, shall we?

40 WR's were taken in the 1st round since 2000. Let's take a looksy at those guys:

2000
Peter Warrick - Cincy - Bust
Plaxico Burress - Pitt - Couple good years. Didnt get resigned by Pit. In jail now.
Travis Taylor - Balt - Gotta be a bust IDK who he is
Sylvester Morris - KC - Who? Bust
J. Ray Soward - Jax - Bust

2001
David Terrell - Chi - Bust
Koren Robinson - Sea - Bust
Rod Gardner - Wash - Bust. HGH.
Freddie Mitchell - Philly - Bust
Reggie Wayne - Indy - All pro. Home Run.

2002
Donte Stallworth - NO - In prison. Bust
Ashley Lelie - Den - Bust
Javon Walker - GB - What? 2 good years? Bust

2003
Charles Rogers - Det - Bust
Andre Johnson - Hou - All pro. Home run.
Bryant Johnson - Ari - Bust

2004
Larry Fitzgerald - Ariz - All pro. Home run. (once Kurt Warner took over)
Roy Williams - Det - Been traded. Bust.
Reggie Williams - Jax - Bust
Lee Evans - Buf - Sorry guys, he obviously doesn't help us get W's
Michael Clayton - TB - Gonna be a FA this year. Not good enough to resign. Bust
Michael Jenkins - Atl - Decent. Not great.
Rashaun Woods - SF - Who? Bust

2005
Braylon Edwards - Cle - 1 good year. Traded. Bust
Troy Williamson - Min - Traded. Can't see. Bust
Mike Williams - Det - LOL Bust
Matt Jones - Jax - Bust. Cocaine
Mark Clayton - Balt - Bust
Roddy White - Atl - All pro. Home run.

2006
Santonio Holmes - Pit - Had a good SB. Not an all pro by any means. It was a late first so I'd call it "Good so far" Needs to do a lot more.

2007
Calvin Johnson - Det - Talented. Getting banged up. Not putting up huge numbers. Team went 0-16 with him.
Ted Ginn jr - Mia - Good for kick returns. Drops everything. Bust
Dwayne Bowe - KC - Just got suspended. Almost got traded. Jury is out but it's clearly not what KC was hoping for.
Robert Meachum - NO - Up til now bust but coming around. Still, all pro QB and it's his 3rd season before he's making an impact.

2008
None taken in the first round at all - Oh, the NFL is learning!

2009
Darius Heyward-Bey - Oak - Bust
Michael Crabtree - SF - Held out. Could be good. Hard to say.
Jeremy Maclin - Phi - Doing solid. Great QB/Great o line
Percy Harvin - Min - Doing solid. Charactor/Migraine issues
Hakeem Nicks - NYG - Dong solid.
Kenny Britt - Ten - Doing solid.

Now, those last 4 guys that are doing solid went to teams that were well build. They had o lines and d lines. WR was a luxury pick at the end of the first where they could afford to take a risk. None is being asked to be the #1 guy or to lift a team from the gutter to the playoffs.

I understand Bryant could be good. But look at the bust rate for WR's! Out of 40 first rounders since 2000, 26 out of 40 first rounders were busts, are out of the league, in prison, or a combonation of the three.

Even if you disagree with some of my bust calls, and you take 6 away, that's still a mere 50% success rate for WR's taken in the first round. Many of which had solid QB's.

Also, of all the ones doing well, most of them had solid QB's.

Notice a trend here???

[Ingtar33]

no.. i'm wrong

I just did the math

We should be drafting 8th. We have the weakest schedule of the 5 win teams.

Bears: 52%
Panthers: 49%
Seahawks: 48.5%
Bills: 47%

[Mr. Pink]

And Roddie White and Calvin Johnson both put up numbers with crappy QB play.

They're dynamic players.

Dez Bryant will be a dynamic player.

We need dynamic players.

We have none.

[Ingtar33]

Dez Bryant looks just like Eric Moulds (right down to his flaws).


if we draft him that's who we'll be getting, Eric Moulds Jr... only without having to wait 3 years for him to develop (he's far more along then Moulds, probably will enter the league with a rookie year roughly analogous to Moulds 3rd year)

[k-oneputt]

Roddy White has a pretty good qb.

Calvin Johnson hasn't come close yet to what he is capable of. When QB develops his numbers will go up.

[Akhippo]

Yeah, Brandon Marshall catches 21 balls and they lose.
Calvin Johnson the last great thing has won one game in two years.
Andre Johson not sniffing the playoffs.

P Garcon tearing it up in Indy.
New Orleans and their mix of mid range WRs
SD with their WHO receivers.

We have recievers that we CANT get the ball to. One throw to Evans. Really? And we want to throw another WR into the mix to be underutilized. STOP WITH THE NONSENSE.

Miami has actually beaten NE and they have no WRs. Get me some heavies and get this foundation built. Then go for the window treatment.

[k-oneputt]

Brady won a Super Bowl with no name wr's.
Baltimore won with no offense.
Giants had Plax a couple of years ago, who else ?

[The Juice Is Loose]

Exactly, its about winning, not numbers.

Roddy didn't put any numbers until Vick left. Still hasn't won a playoff game.

Calvin Johnson may never play in a playoff game.

And having a star QB still doesn't guarantee a solid career for a WR. You go with big strong physical players. Period.

OT, DT, LB, QB, WR. In that order. Even if we lost every WR we had.

[The Juice Is Loose]

And, like I said, if there isn't a guy that I truly am dying for left, you would have to take Bryant. But if there is a guy at a position of need that I want, I take him over Bryant hands down.

Therefore, I hope we lose out and pick as early as possible, and get the guy we truly WANT and NEED.

[Mr. Pink]

Roddy White has a pretty good qb.

Calvin Johnson hasn't come close yet to what he is capable of. When QB develops his numbers will go up.


Roddy White put numbers up with Joey Harrington, Chris Redman and Byron Leftwich throwing him the ball.

In fact those numbers are equal to Lee Evans best year here.

Meanwhile all CJ did last season was lead the NFL in receiving TDs on one of, if not the worst team in the NFL.

Stars put up numbers regardless of who is around them.

Lee Evans isn't anywhere near the class of WR those two guys are.

We don't have stars, we have guys with excuses.

[Mr. Pink]

Brady won a Super Bowl with no name wr's.
Baltimore won with no offense.
Giants had Plax a couple of years ago, who else ?


Yet the Patriots went out and still got Welker and Moss anyways.

Amani Toomer and Shockey were in NY.

I love the Baltimore example. If they won with no offense, why was their original starting QB benched? If they were good enough Tony Banks would have started the entire SB season. The point is he wasn't, Dilfer lead the offense to some scoring. You still need to score to win in this league.

[Philagape]

There's no need to argue about need vs. BPA. Bryant is both. Slam dunk.

And when you're trying to improve almost everywhere, the order is irrelevant. This team is going nowhere next year anyway.

[k-oneputt]

Yet the Patriots went out and still got Welker and Moss anyways.

Amani Toomer and Shockey were in NY.

I love the Baltimore example. If they won with no offense, why was their original starting QB benched? If they were good enough Tony Banks would have started the entire SB season. The point is he wasn't, Dilfer lead the offense to some scoring. You still need to score to win in this league.

Shockey didn't even play. Hurt most of the year.
That's my point, Amani Toomer.

[k-oneputt]

Dilfer didn't screw up and got out of the way. That defense set up the offense with short fields all year.

[k-oneputt]

Yep Moss and Welker couldn't close the deal either. Why's that ?

Because the o-line couldn't protect Brady.

[The Juice Is Loose]

Yet the Patriots went out and still got Welker and Moss anyways.

Amani Toomer and Shockey were in NY.

I love the Baltimore example. If they won with no offense, why was their original starting QB benched? If they were good enough Tony Banks would have started the entire SB season. The point is he wasn't, Dilfer lead the offense to some scoring. You still need to score to win in this league.
Welker was nothing pre-Pats. Why do you think Miami let him walk?

Moss was all but dead as a player. And still hasn't won a Super bowl.

Numbers are numbers, great. But other than Jerry Rice and Michael Irvin, what Super Bowl teams had "ELITE" receivers?

Its about the lines, and the running game. If you can run and stop the run, you have a winner.

[Demon]

The Juice is 100% right on this. It shouldn't even be an argument. As i wrote somewhere, i don't think many of those busts he listed were bad players. But because they were picked early on, they get paid big bucks. Most WR need time to develop and when you make their kind of money, you just don't get the time. The pressure is on to succeed right now. It's beyond silly to think we can draft a WR and have a major impact right away.

[ParanoidAndroid]

If a talented player falls to you in the draft, you take them. You draft talent and fill holes in free agency.
This team has been trying to fill holes by trading picks to get back into the 1st round. It's not working.
Draft the best player available. If it is a wash between 2 or more, pick the guy who fits best.

[Mr. Pink]

Welker was nothing pre-Pats. Why do you think Miami let him walk?

Moss was all but dead as a player. And still hasn't won a Super bowl.

Numbers are numbers, great. But other than Jerry Rice and Michael Irvin, what Super Bowl teams had "ELITE" receivers?

Its about the lines, and the running game. If you can run and stop the run, you have a winner.


Dolphins - Paul Warfield
Steelers - Lynn Swann
Raiders - Fred Biletnikoff
Jets - Don Maynard
Cowboys - Drew Pearson
Rams - Isaac Bruce/Tory Holt take your pick

Need I go further? Or did I illustrate enough that your point is wrong?

And if it's about running the ball, how did the Cards make the playoffs last year?

How are the Saints and Colts both 13-0 now?

This league is about one thing, consistent QB play, and giving him weapons to distribute the ball to.

[BuffaloBlitz83]

Jags end colts undefeated streak tonight.

[k-oneputt]

We can all b&m about wr's and lineman all day but the fact is until we get a qb we are not winning anything.

[kernowboy]

Dolphins - Paul Warfield
Steelers - Lynn Swann
Raiders - Fred Biletnikoff
Jets - Don Maynard
Cowboys - Drew Pearson
Rams - Isaac Bruce/Tory Holt take your pick

Need I go further? Or did I illustrate enough that your point is wrong?

And if it's about running the ball, how did the Cards make the playoffs last year?

How are the Saints and Colts both 13-0 now?

This league is about one thing, consistent QB play, and giving him weapons to distribute the ball to.

But also keeping him vertical to distribute the ball. Even Russell needs to be on his knees, I've yet to see a QB throw the ball when he's on his back

[Oaf]

You guys realize we have top 10 WR talent right now right? Look how far that's gotten us. Let's get a top 10 OLine, a QB prospect, and a starting Mike and go from there.

[The Juice Is Loose]

Dolphins - Paul Warfield
Steelers - Lynn Swann
Raiders - Fred Biletnikoff
Jets - Don Maynard
Cowboys - Drew Pearson
Rams - Isaac Bruce/Tory Holt take your pick

Need I go further? Or did I illustrate enough that your point is wrong?

And if it's about running the ball, how did the Cards make the playoffs last year?

How are the Saints and Colts both 13-0 now?

This league is about one thing, consistent QB play, and giving him weapons to distribute the ball to.

if you have a QB whose potentially a hall of famer you dont need a running game. you win.

so we'll just draft peyton manning in the first round then. problem solved.

[Ed]

The Juice is 100% right on this. It shouldn't even be an argument. As i wrote somewhere, i don't think many of those busts he listed were bad players. But because they were picked early on, they get paid big bucks. Most WR need time to develop and when you make their kind of money, you just don't get the time. The pressure is on to succeed right now. It's beyond silly to think we can draft a WR and have a major impact right away.
See this is the biggest problem with the way fans think. People are so frustrated with this team right now because of the all the recent losing that they have run out of patience. It's all about what guy can come in and help right NOW. Who can come in and be a starter/impact player from DAY 1. As frustrating as it may be, the draft is not about right now. It's all about the future. And you give yourself the best chance of improving that future by drafting the best players. Every team has holes every year, but things can change quickly in this league. No one has a clue what are holes are going to be like in 3 years from now and that's usually how long you have to wait before players realistically begin to make that big impact. I know some rookies can come in and play well right away for whatever reason, but the reality is that the vast majority don't unless you're talking about RB's and LB's. I know we all want to see this team turn around as quickly as possible, but we can't be short sighted either. If you're always trying to fill the biggest needs and in the process passing on the best players, then all you're doing is building a team of inferior players that are destined for 7-9 type seasons or worse. Do you really want to reach for less talent while the teams behind you who are already better then you still get the better players?

Plus we have no idea what's going to happen in free agency, so at this point taking anything other then the BPA doesn't make any sense.

[Nighthawk]

Dolphins - Paul Warfield
Steelers - Lynn Swann
Raiders - Fred Biletnikoff
Jets - Don Maynard
Cowboys - Drew Pearson
Rams - Isaac Bruce/Tory Holt take your pick

Need I go further? Or did I illustrate enough that your point is wrong?

And if it's about running the ball, how did the Cards make the playoffs last year?

How are the Saints and Colts both 13-0 now?

This league is about one thing, consistent QB play, and giving him weapons to distribute the ball to.

True, but the Bills have good WR's this year...it hasn't helped.

[k-oneputt]

Who made who. Manning or his wr's ?

Ok then.

[Demon]

See this is the biggest problem with the way fans think. People are so frustrated with this team right now because of the all the recent losing that they have run out of patience. It's all about what guy can come in and help right NOW. Who can come in and be a starter/impact player from DAY 1. As frustrating as it may be, the draft is not about right now. It's all about the future. And you give yourself the best chance of improving that future by drafting the best players. Every team has holes every year, but things can change quickly in this league. No one has a clue what are holes are going to be like in 3 years from now and that's usually how long you have to wait before players realistically begin to make that big impact. I know some rookies can come in and play well right away for whatever reason, but the reality is that the vast majority don't unless you're talking about RB's and LB's. I know we all want to see this team turn around as quickly as possible, but we can't be short sighted either. If you're always trying to fill the biggest needs and in the process passing on the best players, then all you're doing is building a team of inferior players that are destined for 7-9 type seasons or worse. Do you really want to reach for less talent while the teams behind you who are already better then you still get the better players?

Plus we have no idea what's going to happen in free agency, so at this point taking anything other then the BPA doesn't make any sense.

Nice theory and i wish that's the way it was, and at one point it is how it worked and in the perfect world, that's still the way things would be. BUT, when you pay a guy tons of money per season and a massive signing bonus, you just can not wait 2-3 years for him to develop. I think everyone (including Maybin) should have a full year to get their feet wet but if he's still struggling next season, he'll be even more killed then he is now. Money talks and that kind of $$$ needs to help you. It's easier to say "nah, fans are wrong" when it's not your money.

[Akhippo]

How did drafting BPA works for the Lions with their 4 first round WRs.

Look at the Jags tonight. They went toe to toe with an undefeated team and nearly won with David Garrard and receivers nobody knows. But they had killer line play and a very solid running game. Thats a foundation, thats what we need to strive for first and foremost.

And on the side note of drafting a WR; I think that having a me me receiver really hurts your team. I would rather have the Saints approach or Indies and be able to spread the ball around to many players without the hassle of ball catch counts.

We can draft DBs and WRs till were blue in the face and we will still be bottom dwellers.

[mysticsoto]

That's a terrible pick for us by Scott at nfldraftcountdown...and usually I like some of the things he says (even if I disagree). His rationale blames TO as a failed experiment...it's not TO's fault we have a crappy QB and Oline situation and can't get him the ball. I personally do not think TO is finished and by the sounds of it, TO wouldn't mind coming back next season. He's been well behaved here at Buffalo (surprisingly) and I think drafting Dez for our 1st round would do absolutely nothing to improve this team. WR's almost never contribute much their 1st year and I can't see us any better with this pick.

[Prov401]

Jags end colts undefeated streak tonight.

I'll bet you 3,073 Zonebux they don't.

[Oaf]

When's the last time We had a QB who could make his WRs look better? If we get that, we can get away with the Reche Caldwell’s, Bryant Johnson’s, Mike Furrey’s of the league (at least to a 9-7, 10-6 level).

Seriously, a lineup of Fitzgerald, Andre Johnson, and Colston goes to waste w/o a QB or OLine. The only WR, who I’d consider trading a late 1st for, that’d be worth having around on that kind of offense would be Wes Welker.

[DraftBoy]

Ok draftboy. Since you know everything, let's take a look at R1 receivers over the last 9 drafts, shall we?

40 WR's were taken in the 1st round since 2000. Let's take a looksy at those guys:

2000
Peter Warrick - Cincy - Bust
Plaxico Burress - Pitt - Couple good years. Didnt get resigned by Pit. In jail now.
Travis Taylor - Balt - Gotta be a bust IDK who he is
Sylvester Morris - KC - Who? Bust
J. Ray Soward - Jax - Bust

2001
David Terrell - Chi - Bust
Koren Robinson - Sea - Bust
Rod Gardner - Wash - Bust. HGH.
Freddie Mitchell - Philly - Bust
Reggie Wayne - Indy - All pro. Home Run.

2002
Donte Stallworth - NO - In prison. Bust
Ashley Lelie - Den - Bust
Javon Walker - GB - What? 2 good years? Bust

2003
Charles Rogers - Det - Bust
Andre Johnson - Hou - All pro. Home run.
Bryant Johnson - Ari - Bust

2004
Larry Fitzgerald - Ariz - All pro. Home run. (once Kurt Warner took over)
Roy Williams - Det - Been traded. Bust.
Reggie Williams - Jax - Bust
Lee Evans - Buf - Sorry guys, he obviously doesn't help us get W's
Michael Clayton - TB - Gonna be a FA this year. Not good enough to resign. Bust
Michael Jenkins - Atl - Decent. Not great.
Rashaun Woods - SF - Who? Bust

2005
Braylon Edwards - Cle - 1 good year. Traded. Bust
Troy Williamson - Min - Traded. Can't see. Bust
Mike Williams - Det - LOL Bust
Matt Jones - Jax - Bust. Cocaine
Mark Clayton - Balt - Bust
Roddy White - Atl - All pro. Home run.

2006
Santonio Holmes - Pit - Had a good SB. Not an all pro by any means. It was a late first so I'd call it "Good so far" Needs to do a lot more.

2007
Calvin Johnson - Det - Talented. Getting banged up. Not putting up huge numbers. Team went 0-16 with him.
Ted Ginn jr - Mia - Good for kick returns. Drops everything. Bust
Dwayne Bowe - KC - Just got suspended. Almost got traded. Jury is out but it's clearly not what KC was hoping for.
Robert Meachum - NO - Up til now bust but coming around. Still, all pro QB and it's his 3rd season before he's making an impact.

2008
None taken in the first round at all - Oh, the NFL is learning!

2009
Darius Heyward-Bey - Oak - Bust
Michael Crabtree - SF - Held out. Could be good. Hard to say.
Jeremy Maclin - Phi - Doing solid. Great QB/Great o line
Percy Harvin - Min - Doing solid. Charactor/Migraine issues
Hakeem Nicks - NYG - Dong solid.
Kenny Britt - Ten - Doing solid.

Now, those last 4 guys that are doing solid went to teams that were well build. They had o lines and d lines. WR was a luxury pick at the end of the first where they could afford to take a risk. None is being asked to be the #1 guy or to lift a team from the gutter to the playoffs.

I understand Bryant could be good. But look at the bust rate for WR's! Out of 40 first rounders since 2000, 26 out of 40 first rounders were busts, are out of the league, in prison, or a combonation of the three.

Even if you disagree with some of my bust calls, and you take 6 away, that's still a mere 50% success rate for WR's taken in the first round. Many of which had solid QB's.

Also, of all the ones doing well, most of them had solid QB's.

Notice a trend here???

That's a nice post and a good point if I was advocating going WR in the draft, which Im not. Re-read the posts then get back to me. This isn't about the position Bryant plays, its about taking the BPA. That's all it is at this point.

Why do people not get that?

[DraftBoy]

That's a terrible pick for us by Scott at nfldraftcountdown...and usually I like some of the things he says (even if I disagree). His rationale blames TO as a failed experiment...it's not TO's fault we have a crappy QB and Oline situation and can't get him the ball. I personally do not think TO is finished and by the sounds of it, TO wouldn't mind coming back next season. He's been well behaved here at Buffalo (surprisingly) and I think drafting Dez for our 1st round would do absolutely nothing to improve this team. WR's almost never contribute much their 1st year and I can't see us any better with this pick.

Dez does nothing? You sure about that? What WR do we currently have whose 6'3, and runs in the 4.45 range, can go deep and over the middle and be a true #1 WR?

TO flourishes over the middle, but not necessairly deep, and that's not taking into consideration he is on the downside of his career. Evans is a hell of a deep WR, but for whatever reason has been unable to break out and be a true consistent #1 WR. Unless your planing of Steve Johnson becoming something he has yet to show, we need a bigger weapon and Bryant has the highest value at that point on the board so he makes the most sense.

[k-oneputt]

And our point is, even if he is the bpa at the point the Bills pick, we still shouldn't take him. Not now, on this team, at this time.
At approx. the 10th pick there will still be plenty of talent. The drop-off isn't that extreme.

[DraftBoy]

And our point is, even if he is the bpa at the point the Bills pick, we still shouldn't take him. Not now, on this team, at this time.
At approx. the 10th pick there will still be plenty of talent. The drop-off isn't that extreme.


I disagree, you don't normally find top 5 talent at the number 10 pick. The drop off will be siginificant.

[k-oneputt]

well we disagree then.
top-5 wr to top-10 lineman,qb, or lb talent, I would pass on the wr.

[The Juice Is Loose]

That's a nice post and a good point if I was advocating going WR in the draft, which Im not. Re-read the posts then get back to me. This isn't about the position Bryant plays, its about taking the BPA. That's all it is at this point.

Why do people not get that?
so by that mock are you saying that bryant would be the BPA at #10?

even considering the fact that he missed SR season, rep'ed by Eugene Parker, and is a WR, which has a high bust rate?

That's part of my facts when deciding BPA. I'm sorry but teams have to consider EVERYTHING, and rarely do guys who don't play a majority of their SR season, ESPECIALLY WR's, that come into the NFL and leave a lasting positive impression.

This guy is going to slip to the mid first unless he has a ******ed combine. I don't see teams valuing RB's or WR's like they did in the past.

[DraftBoy]

so by that mock are you saying that bryant would be the BPA at #10?

even considering the fact that he missed SR season, rep'ed by Eugene Parker, and is a WR, which has a high bust rate?

That's part of my facts when deciding BPA. I'm sorry but teams have to consider EVERYTHING, and rarely do guys who don't play a majority of their SR season, ESPECIALLY WR's, that come into the NFL and leave a lasting positive impression.

This guy is going to slip to the mid rounds unless he has a ******ed combine. I don't see teams valuing RB's or WR's like they did in the past.

He didn't miss his SR season, we've been over this. You are completely misrepresenting the facts.

Who the hell cares who reps him? He's still going to sign.

QB has a high bust rate, as does OT, and DE. Should we avoid those positions as well?

[The Juice Is Loose]

I was asking if you thought those factors had anything to do with determining BPA?

The fact that he's repped by EP has a lot to do with things. He's had at least one player make a major holdout each of the last 3 years.

And as for his SR season debate, ok sorry, he played Georgia Houston and Rice. Sorry. He still hasn't played in a GAME since September 19th! 17 catches in the last YEAR.

I just smell the words "Raw" and "Bad route running" and things of that nature to be linked to him when he gets to the NFL, because that's what ALWAYS seems to happen to WRs. (But it won't matter because he won't even see footballs without a line or QB)

Last year we shouldn't have picked Oher. Right? That's what everybody said. Now EVERY damn Bills fan wished we had. Imagine, if we had Oher, Wood, And Levitre! THEN we'd be able to take a QB or a WR!

We need trenches. If a T is projected at 12 and we pick at 8, that's who I'm picking. It's called learning from the mistakes i've been watching year in and year out. Eben Britton is playing good in Jacksonville, too!

[k-oneputt]

Jax starts two rookie ot's. Monroe and Britton.

[mysticsoto]

Dez does nothing? You sure about that? What WR do we currently have whose 6'3, and runs in the 4.45 range, can go deep and over the middle and be a true #1 WR?

TO flourishes over the middle, but not necessarily deep, and that's not taking into consideration he is on the downside of his career. Evans is a hell of a deep WR, but for whatever reason has been unable to break out and be a true consistent #1 WR. Unless your planing of Steve Johnson becoming something he has yet to show, we need a bigger weapon and Bryant has the highest value at that point on the board so he makes the most sense.

I stand by what I said...he does nothing for our team NEXT YEAR. Neither Steve Johnson nor Hardy have been given a chance yet to step up and show what they can do. And I think TO would stick around atleast for another year if we ask him back.

As such, I'm not advocating taking Dez to help out our team in any way. Depending on the coach we get, we may need personnel to move to a 3-4 and if so, we'd likely need a top 3-4 LB, NT or other. And of course, our QB and Oline need attention also. I'm for BPA at any of those positions...

[ParanoidAndroid]

I don't see teams valuing RB's or WR's like they did in the past.

Considering the relative success of last years crop of WR, I'm not sure why you think this.

[Ed]

well we disagree then.
top-5 wr to top-10 lineman,qb, or lb talent, I would pass on the wr.
That's assuming there's a lineman, qb, or lb worthy of a top 10 pick still available. What if you get to the 10th pick and there's no one left at those positions that grade out that high? Do you still pass on a top 5 talent to reach for a bigger need?

[Ed]

Nice theory and i wish that's the way it was, and at one point it is how it worked and in the perfect world, that's still the way things would be. BUT, when you pay a guy tons of money per season and a massive signing bonus, you just can not wait 2-3 years for him to develop. I think everyone (including Maybin) should have a full year to get their feet wet but if he's still struggling next season, he'll be even more killed then he is now. Money talks and that kind of $$$ needs to help you. It's easier to say "nah, fans are wrong" when it's not your money.
So how does paying that same big money to a guy with less talent make the situation any better?

[k-oneputt]

Half those grades are bs anyways. splitting hairs. Just because they say he should go 20-25 doesn't mean they won't be better than the guy picked 4th or 8th. Remember those numbers.
I wish we had taken Oher or Orakpo last yeay over Maybin, but they weren't rated as high. Please.

[DraftBoy]

I was asking if you thought those factors had anything to do with determining BPA?

The fact that he's repped by EP has a lot to do with things. He's had at least one player make a major holdout each of the last 3 years.

And as for his SR season debate, ok sorry, he played Georgia Houston and Rice. Sorry. He still hasn't played in a GAME since September 19th! 17 catches in the last YEAR.

I just smell the words "Raw" and "Bad route running" and things of that nature to be linked to him when he gets to the NFL, because that's what ALWAYS seems to happen to WRs. (But it won't matter because he won't even see footballs without a line or QB)

Last year we shouldn't have picked Oher. Right? That's what everybody said. Now EVERY damn Bills fan wished we had. Imagine, if we had Oher, Wood, And Levitre! THEN we'd be able to take a QB or a WR!

We need trenches. If a T is projected at 12 and we pick at 8, that's who I'm picking. It's called learning from the mistakes i've been watching year in and year out. Eben Britton is playing good in Jacksonville, too!

No he has not played since Sept 17th, however he has been at every practice and walk through Ok State has had plus been in their conditioning program. You seem to think he got suspended and just quit playing football all together. Again you either don't know all the facts or are misrepresenting them.

Bryant is neither Raw nor a bad route runner, so why you want to associate those things about him is beyond me. Just because some WR's have those issues, doesn't mean you can automatically associate those to every WR.

No last year we have plenty of options and we probably should of picked Orakpo, not Oher or Maybin. The Bills were going to give Bell a shot whether we liked it or not, I dont think they had any intention of ever taking a LT last season.

[DraftBoy]

I stand by what I said...he does nothing for our team NEXT YEAR. Neither Steve Johnson nor Hardy have been given a chance yet to step up and show what they can do. And I think TO would stick around atleast for another year if we ask him back.

As such, I'm not advocating taking Dez to help out our team in any way. Depending on the coach we get, we may need personnel to move to a 3-4 and if so, we'd likely need a top 3-4 LB, NT or other. And of course, our QB and Oline need attention also. I'm for BPA at any of those positions...


I still disagree. You know as well as I do that Bryant has a special skill set and could very well come in a be a productive day 1 player. He has the NFL size, the route running, the hands, and the athleticism. Am I guaranteeing he will? No of course not but to automatically say he does nothing for our team next year is a huge assumption and why would I even care about next year? This team is so far from a contender next year is of little consequence imo.

Hardy has been hurt but Steve Johnson hasn't done anything in practice to even warrant him getting PT. So what should I be waiting on him for? He's barely even been active.

If we go 3-4, you have a point, but until we do, we can't jump to that conclusion either. As I said before the mock is based on who would you pick today, and today we are not a 3-4 defensive scheme.

[k-oneputt]

Nobody is saying that Bryant is not a player. It is he plays a postion were it is easy to find players and they have qb and line issues that they need to take care of first.

[DraftBoy]

Nobody is saying that Bryant is not a player. It is he plays a postion were it is easy to find players and they have qb and line issues that they need to take care of first.

And nobody is saying we don't have issues to fill. However you don't fill them by passing on better players to reach for players at need positions. That's just stupid.

Why the hell would anybody take a top 20 tackle, but pass on a top 5 WR? You're advocating taking the 3rd or 4th best QB or OT over the best WR.

It just doesn't make logical sense, especially considering how we suck at every position but P and LS.

[k-oneputt]

When you draft 10 th you won't be getting the 3rd or 4th best o-lineman, d-lineman, qb, or lb. Mathimatically impossible.

[DraftBoy]

When you draft 10 th you won't be getting the 3rd or 4th best o-lineman, d-lineman, qb, or lb. Mathimatically impossible.


Yes you can, I use the word or, not and. Go back and re-read.

And we could easily see two QB's and two OT's go before us.

[HAMMER]

Some people will never learn, I am speaking of the BPA people. When you have gaping holes in your line, you fill them with the best available lineman in the draft. See Detroit as Exhibit A as to why you don't take the BPA when they are a skill position and your line sucks. We need protection and a capable QB. Stevie Johnson and Hardy need a chance to continue growing, we have Lynch and Jackson who are more than capable.

[k-oneputt]

Yes you can, I use the word or, not and. Go back and re-read.

And we could easily see two QB's and two OT's go before us.

Ok take a d-lineman or linebacker then. Plus you know someone is taking Berry in front of them. And when the Bills lose out they will probably be in the top-6.

[The Juice Is Loose]

A. Bryant isn't in Mel Kipers "Big Board" Top 5

B. The only thing that determines player's ratings in the top 10 is the needs of the teams drafting.

Suh is the "best player" in the draft. But the Rams "need" a QB. So they take a QB. Happens every year.

My other thought: Would Bill Parcells, Bill Pollian or Bill Belicheck, the best drafters in the NFL, pick a WR at 5? I don't think so (They'll never draft 5th anyway.) They take a lineman or a linebacker. Every time

And besides, my main point was I hope we lose enough to pick higher than 10th and get the montster in the trenches we really need.

[DraftBoy]

Ok take a d-lineman or linebacker then. Plus you know someone is taking Berry in front of them. And when the Bills lose out they will probably be in the top-6.

Berry isn't declared yet, and there has been rumors that he may stay. Though it would be stupid of him.

What D-Lineman? Id be happy with a McCoy, but I after him Id wait on a DT till after 15. I dont like any the LB's enough to burn a top 10 pick on them. McClain maybe if he declares but everybody else is lower talent. I dont like reaching for players.

[DraftBoy]

A. Bryant isn't in Mel Kipers "Big Board" Top 5

B. The only thing that determines player's ratings in the top 10 is the needs of the teams drafting.

Suh is the "best player" in the draft. But the Rams "need" a QB. So they take a QB. Happens every year.

My other thought: Would Bill Parcells, Bill Pollian or Bill Belicheck, the best drafters in the NFL, pick a WR at 5? I don't think so (They'll never draft 5th anyway.) They take a lineman or a linebacker. Every time

And besides, my main point was I hope we lose enough to pick higher than 10th and get the montster in the trenches we really need.


:rofl:

Wait so because Kiper doesn't rate him top 5, he's not top 5? Ok...carry on.

Suh is the best player, and he should go #1, if a team passed on him they are going to be very sorry. A dominant DT of his caliber comes around maybe once a decade.

Every time? You sure about that? I seem to remeber the Colts taking Reggie Wayne in Round 1, I seem to recall the Pats taking Chad Jackson. And the biggest point against what you said...Parcells took Keyshawn Johnson #1 overall. So no I dont think its every time.

[Akhippo]

If the 3rd best OT starts, plays well, and solidifies the line with possible Probowls and playoff appearances. Then yes i would take him over the #1 WR.

[DraftBoy]

If the 3rd best OT starts, plays well, and solidifies the line with possible Probowls and playoff appearances. Then yes i would take him over the #1 WR.

Even if the #1 WR plays well, starts, gives you a threat you never had before, and is somebody every DC in the league has to account for at all times and scheme against?

[Bill Cody]

:rofl:

Wait so because Kiper doesn't rate him top 5, he's not top 5? Ok...carry on.

Suh is the best player, and he should go #1, if a team passed on him they are going to be very sorry. A dominant DT of his caliber comes around maybe once a decade.

He hasn't played a down yet but he's a once in a decade player? Nice crystal ball you've got.


Every time? You sure about that? I seem to remeber the Colts taking Reggie Wayne in Round 1, I seem to recall the Pats taking Chad Jackson. And the biggest point against what you said...Parcells took Keyshawn Johnson #1 overall. So no I dont think its every time.

Reggie Wayne was a 1st rounder but 30th not top 10, that's a big difference. Chad Jackson was a 2nd rounder. And Parcells was with NE when KJ was drafted. Try again.

[Mr. Pink]

A. Bryant isn't in Mel Kipers "Big Board" Top 5

B. The only thing that determines player's ratings in the top 10 is the needs of the teams drafting.

Suh is the "best player" in the draft. But the Rams "need" a QB. So they take a QB. Happens every year.

My other thought: Would Bill Parcells, Bill Pollian or Bill Belicheck, the best drafters in the NFL, pick a WR at 5? I don't think so (They'll never draft 5th anyway.) They take a lineman or a linebacker. Every time

And besides, my main point was I hope we lose enough to pick higher than 10th and get the montster in the trenches we really need.


Show me where Parcells took a lineman or linebacker when the team drafted in the top 15? I'll save you the trouble. Never.

Show me where Belichick has drafted a lineman or linebacker in the top 15 as well? I'll again save you the trouble. Never.

Parcells highest pick in the draft was a CB, Belichicks was a S.

Mel Kipers board gets thrashed every draft, haven't you noticed that by now?

[Mr. Pink]

If the 3rd best OT starts, plays well, and solidifies the line with possible Probowls and playoff appearances. Then yes i would take him over the #1 WR.


And this is the mentality that has plagued this franchise for the past decade.

You should always take the best player available to build for the future.

Rome wasn't built in a day.

And neither will the Bills be contenders because they draft the 3rd best OT over the best WR.

[Beastie Bills]

Show me where Parcells took a lineman or linebacker when the team drafted in the top 15? I'll save you the trouble. Never.

Show me where Belichick has drafted a lineman or linebacker in the top 15 as well? I'll again save you the trouble. Never.

Parcells highest pick in the draft was a CB, Belichicks was a S.

Really?

In 21 years as a head coach/GM, Parcells has had 9 top-15 picks. 6 of them were linemen or linebackers.

Year Team Pick Position Player
2008 - Miami - 1 - T - Jake Long
2005 - Dallas - 11 - LB - DeMarcus Ware
1997 - Jets - 8 - LB - James Farrior
1994 - Patriots - 4 - DE - Willie McGinest
1988 - Giants - 10 - G - Eric Moore
1984 - Giants - 3 - LB - Carl Banks

After I saw these stats, I didn't even bother looking for Belichick's

[The Juice Is Loose]

Its either Okung, McCoy or bust!

Suh won't be attainable, but a WR is a wasted pick. We have TO, who has to get accounted for every play, like you said, and our QB can't break 100 yards in a game because he's on his ass.

[Philagape]

See Detroit as Exhibit A as to why you don't take the BPA when they are a skill position and your line sucks.

Wrong players don't make a wrong strategy.

The Bills screwed up on their Mike Williams, so I guess it means they should never take a lineman in the top 5 eh?

[Mr. Pink]

Really?

In 21 years as a head coach/GM, Parcells has had 9 top-15 picks. 6 of them were linemen or linebackers.

Year Team Pick Position Player
2008 - Miami - 1 - T - Jake Long
2005 - Dallas - 11 - LB - DeMarcus Ware
1997 - Jets - 8 - LB - James Farrior
1994 - Patriots - 4 - DE - Willie McGinest
1988 - Giants - 10 - G - Eric Moore
1984 - Giants - 3 - LB - Carl Banks

After I saw these stats, I didn't even bother looking for Belichick's


Very good someone actually did a little legwork on Parcells. I'm impressed.

Now go check Belichick.

Eric Turner was his highest drafted player. A safety.

[DraftBoy]

He hasn't played a down yet but he's a once in a decade player? Nice crystal ball you've got.



Reggie Wayne was a 1st rounder but 30th not top 10, that's a big difference. Chad Jackson was a 2nd rounder. And Parcells was with NE when KJ was drafted. Try again.


Yes, Im that confident in his abilities. Nobody has played DT like this kid has since probably Tommy Harris. I could easily see him becoming the best DT in the league in the future. He is that dominant.

Good catch on the KJ thing, it was a misread on my part.

[The Juice Is Loose]

Recent "Skill/Speed" position players and the "Big/Power" position players they were selected over...

09. Darius Heyward-Bey over BJ Raji and Eugene Monroe. Better pro? Raji and Monroe

08. Leodis McKelvin over Ryan Clady. Better pro? Clady

07. Calvin Johnson over Joe Thomas and Levi Brown. Better pro? Debatable. But who would be helping the Lions more now? A WR or someone to protect their $40 mil investment in Stafford? Yeah I'd say an OT.

06. Reggie Bush over D'Brickashaw Ferguson, Whitner over Ngata. Better pros? Ferg and Ngata. Bush can't stay healthy. Whitner can't make plays or stay healthy.

05. Entire top 10 over Demarcus Ware and Shawne Merriman. 10 busts preceeded by 2 pro bowlers.

So, you can have guys like Heyward Bey, Calvin Johnson and Leodis McKelvin, or you can have guys like Ryan Clady, Demarcus Ware or BJ Raji.

Seems pretty obvious to me.

[The Juice Is Loose]

My point is, the only reason the Top 10 is the Top 10 in most cases is based on the teams needs!

If the Rams needed a safety more than anything else, they'd take a safety first overall.

I want one of the big 3 or 4 tackles, O or D, and a receiver will make me puke, as it will be year 2 or 3 before he is able to make a difference. We'll be having this debate drafting 5th again in 2011!

Sorry, look at the Dolphins. A 1 year turnaround is HIGHLY POSSIBLE! They didn't draft Matt Ryan or Darren McFadden, even though those guys were super high rated, and they needed at least 1 of the positions.

You get the T. Mike Williams was a rare total bust OT.

[Beastie Bills]

Very good someone actually did a little legwork on Parcells. I'm impressed.

Now go check Belichick.

Eric Turner was his highest drafted player. A safety.

yes, his highest pick was a safety.

However, he's had 7 top-15 picks. 4 of them were linemen/linebackers.

Year Team Pick Position Player
1993 - Cleveland - 14 - Center - Steve Everitt
2001 - Patriots - 6 - DE - Richard Seymour
2003 - Patriots - 13 - DE - Ty Warren
2008 - Patriots - 10 - LB - Jerod Mayo

[The Juice Is Loose]

yes, his highest pick was a safety.

However, he's had 7 top-15 picks. 4 of them were linemen/linebackers.

Year Team Pick Position Player
1993 - Cleveland - 14 - Center - Steve Everitt
2001 - Patriots - 6 - DE - Richard Seymour
2003 - Patriots - 13 - DE - Ty Warren
2008 - Patriots - 10 - LB - Jerod Mayo

01- Seymour was picked over David Terrell and Koren Robinson, all were in the Top 10.

03- Warren was picked ahead of Bryant Johnson who was the 2nd WR taken.

08- Jerod Mayo was picked over McKelvin, who was projected to go 7th and was "Top 10" talent. We don't need to go over that.

Especially recently, almost in any situation where it's even debateable, the smart teams have taken trench players and the trench players have done better than the skill guys taken after.

[Philagape]

So Beastie, you're saying these guys didn't stick to this pattern all the time? Just some of the time? What kind of a point is that?
If they don't stick to it, then it's irrelevant. They did what what best for their teams given who was available at the time. There's no internet fanboy strategy where they had to take a certain position first.

[Beastie Bills]

So Beastie, you're saying these guys didn't stick to this pattern all the time? Just some of the time? What kind of a point is that?
The poster said:


Show me where Parcells took a lineman or linebacker when the team drafted in the top 15? I'll save you the trouble. Never.

Show me where Belichick has drafted a lineman or linebacker in the top 15 as well? I'll again save you the trouble. Never.
So I complied with his request, and showed him.

Maybe you should just mind your own business, instead of trying to make it look like I was attempting, and failing, to make a point. If I was making a point, I guess it was that Parcells and Belichick have indeed drafted linemen/linebackers in the top-15.

[DraftBoy]

Recent "Skill/Speed" position players and the "Big/Power" position players they were selected over...

09. Darius Heyward-Bey over BJ Raji and Eugene Monroe. Better pro? Raji and Monroe

08. Leodis McKelvin over Ryan Clady. Better pro? Clady

07. Calvin Johnson over Joe Thomas and Levi Brown. Better pro? Debatable. But who would be helping the Lions more now? A WR or someone to protect their $40 mil investment in Stafford? Yeah I'd say an OT.

06. Reggie Bush over D'Brickashaw Ferguson, Whitner over Ngata. Better pros? Ferg and Ngata. Bush can't stay healthy. Whitner can't make plays or stay healthy.

05. Entire top 10 over Demarcus Ware and Shawne Merriman. 10 busts preceeded by 2 pro bowlers.

So, you can have guys like Heyward Bey, Calvin Johnson and Leodis McKelvin, or you can have guys like Ryan Clady, Demarcus Ware or BJ Raji.

Seems pretty obvious to me.

These comparisons are both unfair but completely invalid. You can't compare the impact players are making on different teams at completely different positions, its a huge assumption.

Most of your arguments are accurate, but nobody here is advocating taking the fastest player avail.

[Ed]

He hasn't played a down yet but he's a once in a decade player? Nice crystal ball you've got.



Reggie Wayne was a 1st rounder but 30th not top 10, that's a big difference. Chad Jackson was a 2nd rounder. And Parcells was with NE when KJ was drafted. Try again.
You're wrong. Parcells took over the Jets and picked Keyshawn with the #1 overall pick.

[Beastie Bills]

You're wrong. Parcells took over the Jets and picked Keyshawn with the #1 overall pick.

According to this (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nyj/1996_draft.htm)site, Keyshawn was drafted in 1996, and the coach was Rich Kotite. Parcells took over in 1997.

I'm just going by what that site says though. I honestly don't remember at all.

[Mr. Pink]

Recent "Skill/Speed" position players and the "Big/Power" position players they were selected over...

09. Darius Heyward-Bey over BJ Raji and Eugene Monroe. Better pro? Raji and Monroe

08. Leodis McKelvin over Ryan Clady. Better pro? Clady

07. Calvin Johnson over Joe Thomas and Levi Brown. Better pro? Debatable. But who would be helping the Lions more now? A WR or someone to protect their $40 mil investment in Stafford? Yeah I'd say an OT.

06. Reggie Bush over D'Brickashaw Ferguson, Whitner over Ngata. Better pros? Ferg and Ngata. Bush can't stay healthy. Whitner can't make plays or stay healthy.

05. Entire top 10 over Demarcus Ware and Shawne Merriman. 10 busts preceeded by 2 pro bowlers.

So, you can have guys like Heyward Bey, Calvin Johnson and Leodis McKelvin, or you can have guys like Ryan Clady, Demarcus Ware or BJ Raji.

Seems pretty obvious to me.

09. Tyson Jackson over Michael Crabtree. Maybin over Harvin.

08. Name any big/power guy over DeSean Jackson or Eddie Royal.

07. Ben Grubbs over Anthony Gonzalez. Gaines Adams over Darrelle Revis. Hell in 07 you can say any team that passed over Adrian Peterson. But it's a good thing that the Bengals drafted Adams 4th overall right?

06. Bobby Carpenter over Antonio Cromartie. Manny Lawson over Santonio Holmes.

05. Erasmus James over Roddy White.

You can go either way you want to try and prove an argument with this.

[Philagape]

The poster said:


So I complied with his request, and showed him.

Maybe you should just mind your own business, instead of trying to make it look like I was attempting, and failing, to make a point. If I was making a point, I guess it was that Parcells and Belichick have indeed drafted linemen/linebackers in the top-15.

He wasn't talking to you, so minding your own business isn't something you should be telling other people to do.

[Mr. Pink]

01- Seymour was picked over David Terrell and Koren Robinson, all were in the Top 10.

03- Warren was picked ahead of Bryant Johnson who was the 2nd WR taken.

08- Jerod Mayo was picked over McKelvin, who was projected to go 7th and was "Top 10" talent. We don't need to go over that.

Especially recently, almost in any situation where it's even debateable, the smart teams have taken trench players and the trench players have done better than the skill guys taken after.


And Seymour was taken ahead of Santana Moss, Nate Clements, Reggie Wayne, Todd Heap. Seymour is not head and shoulders above any of those 4. Good thing in 01 the Browns took DT Gerard Warren instead of LaDanian Tomlinson or any of the above 4 skill/speed players.

Ty Warren was also picked ahead of Troy Polamulu. Who's more valuable? How about the 29 picks before Nnamdi Asomugha? I bet the Broncos are glad they drafted George Foster instead of Asomugha or even Dallas Clark.

[The Juice Is Loose]

And Seymour was taken ahead of Santana Moss, Nate Clements, Reggie Wayne, Todd Heap. Seymour is not head and shoulders above any of those 4. Good thing in 01 the Browns took DT Gerard Warren instead of LaDanian Tomlinson or any of the above 4 skill/speed players.

Ty Warren was also picked ahead of Troy Polamulu. Who's more valuable? How about the 29 picks before Nnamdi Asomugha? I bet the Broncos are glad they drafted George Foster instead of Asomugha or even Dallas Clark.

My point is for a team that is building and has no line, quarterback, or run defense, a ****ing wide receiver is just going to go run routes and sell jerseys...THATS IT! IE TO.

The only skill position guys that translate well in the pro's are ones that go to teams that are already built in the trenches, and somewhat decent at least at QB.

If we could protect a QB, and they could throw the ball, ok, WR.

The point of this post was that I HOPE WE LOSE OUT AND PICK HIGHER SO WE DON'T HAVE TO TAKE A ****ING WR!

Also, there is no such thing as sure fire draft pick. But WR is even less of a sure thing than other positions.

So this year, we can shore up our lines, and toughen the team up. Then we'll play better, our skill guys will play better, we'll draft later. Then, when we have some physical players, we draft our WR at #20 overall, instead of #5, pay them half, they get half the pressure, they have a chance to produce because the QB isn't on his back!

And I don't consider Maybin a power player, either. He'd be an AVG size LB. He's a total waste of a pick, a complete and utter bust, and not worth bringing up.

[Oaf]

Both Lynch and Evans could be considered slight teen-pick reaches. They turned out okay. We've had a defense hold us back from the playoffs (2002), we've had QB's hold us back from the playoffs (every year), we've had Olines hold us back from the playoffs. Didn't JP have his best year with PP @ #2? Pick the best player available at the gaping holes we have (Mike, QB, OT), top 5 WR or DB be damned!

[The Juice Is Loose]

Both Lynch and Evans could be considered slight teen-pick reaches. They turned out okay. We've had a defense hold us back from the playoffs (2002), we've had QB's hold us back from the playoffs (every year), we've had Olines hold us back from the playoffs. Didn't JP have his best year with PP @ #2? Pick the best player available at the gaping holes we have (Mike, QB, OT), top 5 WR or DB be damned!

We all knew Lynch was our pick 2 months ahead of the draft.

Evans was a no-qb consolation prize. We wanted Rapelisberger.

[Mr. Pink]

My point is for a team that is building and has no line, quarterback, or run defense, a ****ing wide receiver is just going to go run routes and sell jerseys...THATS IT! IE TO.

The only skill position guys that translate well in the pro's are ones that go to teams that are already built in the trenches, and somewhat decent at least at QB.

If we could protect a QB, and they could throw the ball, ok, WR.

The point of this post was that I HOPE WE LOSE OUT AND PICK HIGHER SO WE DON'T HAVE TO TAKE A ****ING WR!

Also, there is no such thing as sure fire draft pick. But WR is even less of a sure thing than other positions.

So this year, we can shore up our lines, and toughen the team up. Then we'll play better, our skill guys will play better, we'll draft later. Then, when we have some physical players, we draft our WR at #20 overall, instead of #5, pay them half, they get half the pressure, they have a chance to produce because the QB isn't on his back!

And I don't consider Maybin a power player, either. He'd be an AVG size LB. He's a total waste of a pick, a complete and utter bust, and not worth bringing up.


The only skill players that succeed are already built in the trenches and have QBs? Did I read that right? Are you insane?

Tell Walter Payton or Barry Sanders that they didn't succeed then, because, that's what you just said.

Tell Paul Warfield he didn't succeed because he was on run first offenses in his career...being on one team that had Jim Brown and another that had Larry Cszonka.

Calvin Johnson has been successful with garbage on his team. Roddy White was successful before they got Ryan and Turner. Andre Johnson was successful with David freakin Carr. Hell, Lee Evans was successful with JP Losman.

First round WRs are more of a risk than any other position? Surely you must be joking. Every first round receiver taken this year not named Heyward Bey has been successful in their rookie campaigns. Harvin, Britt, Nicks, Maclin, Crabtree. So you got 5 out of 6 who have been successful thus far.

Compare that to DE, one of the positions you think is more key to NFL success apparently. Tyson Jackson, Aaron Maybin, Larry English but you got one successful guy there in Orakpo.

How about DT? BJ Raji, Peria Jerry, Evander Hood. You got Raji and nothing.

Do you care to retract your viewpoint that WR is such a huge risk compared to other positions?

[Akhippo]

The only skill players that succeed are already built in the trenches and have QBs? Did I read that right? Are you insane?

Tell Walter Payton or Barry Sanders that they didn't succeed then, because, that's what you just said.

Tell Paul Warfield he didn't succeed because he was on run first offenses in his career...being on one team that had Jim Brown and another that had Larry Cszonka.

Calvin Johnson has been successful with garbage on his team. Roddy White was successful before they got Ryan and Turner. Andre Johnson was successful with David freakin Carr. Hell, Lee Evans was successful with JP Losman.

First round WRs are more of a risk than any other position? Surely you must be joking. Every first round receiver taken this year not named Heyward Bey has been successful in their rookie campaigns. Harvin, Britt, Nicks, Maclin, Crabtree. So you got 5 out of 6 who have been successful thus far.

Compare that to DE, one of the positions you think is more key to NFL success apparently. Tyson Jackson, Aaron Maybin, Larry English but you got one successful guy there in Orakpo.

How about DT? BJ Raji, Peria Jerry, Evander Hood. You got Raji and nothing.

Do you care to retract your viewpoint that WR is such a huge risk compared to other positions?

Are those receivers successfulll or just thrown to alot because they cant run the ball. Denver had a receiver catch 21 balls. Thats very successfull; in a loss. Loook at how many games they have won for all that success. And your rookies that are "successful" all except Crabtree have good to excellent offensive lines.

The bottom bottom line is that successfull teams without exceptional QBs have very good lines more than they have All Pro talent. Look at New Orleans and Indy for that. Meachem and Garcon.

[Mr. Pink]

Are those receivers successfulll or just thrown to alot because they cant run the ball. Denver had a receiver catch 21 balls. Thats very successfull; in a loss. Loook at how many games they have won for all that success. And your rookies that are "successful" all except Crabtree have good to excellent offensive lines.

The bottom bottom line is that successfull teams without exceptional QBs have very good lines more than they have All Pro talent. Look at New Orleans and Indy for that. Meachem and Garcon.


BTW, Meachem, first round pick.

[mysticsoto]

I still disagree. You know as well as I do that Bryant has a special skill set and could very well come in a be a productive day 1 player. He has the NFL size, the route running, the hands, and the athleticism. Am I guaranteeing he will? No of course not but to automatically say he does nothing for our team next year is a huge assumption and why would I even care about next year? This team is so far from a contender next year is of little consequence imo.

Hardy has been hurt but Steve Johnson hasn't done anything in practice to even warrant him getting PT. So what should I be waiting on him for? He's barely even been active.

If we go 3-4, you have a point, but until we do, we can't jump to that conclusion either. As I said before the mock is based on who would you pick today, and today we are not a 3-4 defensive scheme.
Detroit took top WRs for a number of years...how did that work out for them? WR is useless if you don't have a good or even decent QB and we don't. We must either draft a prospect that can all of a sudden turn it up (and I know you advocate there aren't any - but I'm just saying this based on need rather than what is) or we have to get a decent one in FA - which I can't see either, as there aren't any good FA QBs available. But look how different Minnesota looks now with a good QB.

And I think it's unfair of you to allude that Johnson has gotten no playing time so therefore he must suck. Johnson is not going to beat out TO or Evans and at 6'2", he doesn't fit the slot receiver profile much though they've put him there from time to time. He also had the early year rib injury that takes a while to heal. Hardy is also a #2 WR and not going to play the slot so again, you expect him to unseat TO or Evans? Not going to happen.

With most of the Oline returning from injury next year (except maybe Wood) I am fairly comfortable with them, though I want a few good prospects on the PS. But I am NOT comfortable at QB at all and I feel until that gets addressed, I can't even bother contemplating anything else...you just can't win without a solid/decent QB unless you have a super outstanding defense that can change things around and overpower teams with turnovers...in which case I guess we'd have to go DE again (we are losing Denney next year I think). And as mentioned in another thread, I try and go after one of the two DTs that the Giants have next year that will be FAs.

I'm ok if we go LT next year, but in some ways I feel that it would just show how stupid the coaching staff is then. If you didn't think Bell could become our next LT then you should have just paid Peters and had him stay. Instead, you traded him and that would presume that you feel the next in line can handle those duties...personally, I thought Bell struggled a little at first, but then he seemed to get better before injuries took over. If anything I'd say Levitre was the weakest link of the Oline but not b'cse of technique. I felt it was strength related which is not a surprise for a rookie coming in against massive 3-4 DE vets. Hangartner wasn't as solid either. He also needs to get stronger or we need to seriously consider putting Wood there who was by far our best Olineman. At RG/RT I think we would be fine with any number of choices of those that are left. Butler will be back, Jamon has looked more decent than I expected, Scott was ok, etc...

If we go 3-4 DE, LB probably becomes the highest priority...but I can tell you what I think we are going to do...every year (as of late) the FO seems to do something for marketing reasons. Giving that we are losing, they hvae to attract fans somehow...A few years ago, we got Marcus Stroud, last year we got TO and went strong on Oline, this year, I think they will grab Tebow - strictly for the marketing aspect of it. Mark my words...

[The Juice Is Loose]

Detroit took top WRs for a number of years...how did that work out for them? WR is useless if you don't have a good or even decent QB and we don't. We must either draft a prospect that can all of a sudden turn it up (and I know you advocate there aren't any - but I'm just saying this based on need rather than what is) or we have to get a decent one in FA - which I can't see either, as there aren't any good FA QBs available. But look how different Minnesota looks now with a good QB.

And I think it's unfair of you to allude that Johnson has gotten no playing time so therefore he must suck. Johnson is not going to beat out TO or Evans and at 6'2", he doesn't fit the slot receiver profile much though they've put him there from time to time. He also had the early year rib injury that takes a while to heal. Hardy is also a #2 WR and not going to play the slot so again, you expect him to unseat TO or Evans? Not going to happen.

With most of the Oline returning from injury next year (except maybe Wood) I am fairly comfortable with them, though I want a few good prospects on the PS. But I am NOT comfortable at QB at all and I feel until that gets addressed, I can't even bother contemplating anything else...you just can't win without a solid/decent QB unless you have a super outstanding defense that can change things around and overpower teams with turnovers...in which case I guess we'd have to go DE again (we are losing Denney next year I think). And as mentioned in another thread, I try and go after one of the two DTs that the Giants have next year that will be FAs.

I'm ok if we go LT next year, but in some ways I feel that it would just show how stupid the coaching staff is then. If you didn't think Bell could become our next LT then you should have just paid Peters and had him stay. Instead, you traded him and that would presume that you feel the next in line can handle those duties...personally, I thought Bell struggled a little at first, but then he seemed to get better before injuries took over. If anything I'd say Levitre was the weakest link of the Oline but not b'cse of technique. I felt it was strength related which is not a surprise for a rookie coming in against massive 3-4 DE vets. Hangartner wasn't as solid either. He also needs to get stronger or we need to seriously consider putting Wood there who was by far our best Olineman. At RG/RT I think we would be fine with any number of choices of those that are left. Butler will be back, Jamon has looked more decent than I expected, Scott was ok, etc...

If we go 3-4 DE, LB probably becomes the highest priority...but I can tell you what I think we are going to do...every year (as of late) the FO seems to do something for marketing reasons. Giving that we are losing, they hvae to attract fans somehow...A few years ago, we got Marcus Stroud, last year we got TO and went strong on Oline, this year, I think they will grab Tebow - strictly for the marketing aspect of it. Mark my words...

well it wouldn't market me. i wouldn't want tebow at all. not whatsoever. not a florida running qb in western ny.

[SabreEleven]

No you don't reach...ever.

What about reaching around?

[kernowboy]

I think we have enough issues that they cannot all be solved in a single draft.

I would personally prefer that rather than look at QB, we sort out the LT position once and for all. We could go WR but thats a wasted addition if we cannot get them the ball. The guys we seem to be looking at for a GM all have a strong rep in the draft.

I think with a top LT we can have a genuine look at Brohm, knowing that he has protection. If he flunks it, then QB becomes a top priority for 2011 when the likes of Locker and Devlin will be available.

For me a lot of our problems eminate from poor coaching. I am not convinced by Van Pelt or Tolbert or Schobert and Fairchild before them. I think a top OC like Hue Jackson with a reputation for developing WRs can do wonders with Hardy and Steve Johnson and maybe a mid-round pick like Naaman Johnson.

So we can go Day1 for the Left Tackle, on Day2 add a DT and a guy who can play MLB, or at least be a better WLB than Ellison and then on Day3 maybe look at some skill players and additional depth.

Depending how the 2010 season plays out we can then look at QB, WR, TE in 2011.

But we've already got some youngsters on the roster at these positions so lets have a decent coaching staff give them a proper opportunity before deciding they will not step up to where we need them to be.

[X-Era]

I think we have enough issues that they cannot all be solved in a single draft.

I would personally prefer that rather than look at QB, we sort out the LT position once and for all. We could go WR but thats a wasted addition if we cannot get them the ball. The guys we seem to be looking at for a GM all have a strong rep in the draft.

I think with a top LT we can have a genuine look at Brohm, knowing that he has protection. If he flunks it, then QB becomes a top priority for 2011 when the likes of Locker and Devlin will be available.

For me a lot of our problems eminate from poor coaching. I am not convinced by Van Pelt or Tolbert or Schobert and Fairchild before them. I think a top OC like Hue Jackson with a reputation for developing WRs can do wonders with Hardy and Steve Johnson and maybe a mid-round pick like Naaman Johnson.

So we can go Day1 for the Left Tackle, on Day2 add a DT and a guy who can play MLB, or at least be a better WLB than Ellison and then on Day3 maybe look at some skill players and additional depth.

Depending how the 2010 season plays out we can then look at QB, WR, TE in 2011.

But we've already got some youngsters on the roster at these positions so lets have a decent coaching staff give them a proper opportunity before deciding they will not step up to where we need them to be.

Have you heard any GM rumors?

So, I don't totally disagree with evaluating Brohm and letting the QB spot go until 2011. The only reason Im not a huge fan is that if Brohm isn't the answer or we still don't know on him, we cant even start the development process on the next guy until after next years draft... I'm a bit impatient at this point.

[PECKERWOOD]

If we want to add a play maker on offense, how about we trade down and take Jermaine Gresham? Anybody remember him?

[X-Era]

If we want to add a play maker on offense, how about we trade down and take Jermaine Gresham? Anybody remember him?

Hes the best TE prospect to come out since Vernon Davis. Hes a stud. If he can come back from injury, and show the scouts he didnt lose anything, you could be looking at a top 15 pick.