Does a 3-4 require a huge NT?

[kernowboy]

Reading about the possible swap to this alignment it seems the prototypical NT for this defence is:

6ft2, 330lbs with a 40time of 5.25.

I wonder if we confuse size with strength and whether it might be possible to draft a smaller NT who by technique and agility be a top NT for our team.

For many years the Denver OL was outmatched size wise with almost every opponent but usually came out on top, and also I hear that some of the bigger NTs were essentially two down players who wear down very quickly.

Arthur Jones, 6ft4 and 295lbs is being considered as a 4-3 DT, or a 3-4 DE but I wonder if he might equally suit a 3-4 NT where he plays in college.

He seems to be mostly muscle, extremely strong due a wrestling background and be more than capable as a NT. And he can probably add another 8-15lbs without too much trouble

Guys like Kelly Gregg, Jay Ratliff and Chris Hoke are not the text book behemoths we are told are required at NT such as Wilfork and Jamal Williams, but have been more the adequate in the middle and maybe we need to think outside of the box, and rather than 3 fat men, look to draft players here with genuine athletic ability

[yordad]

yes

[Pinkerton Security]

yes

id say its more important that the NT can occupy multiple O-linemen, size basically just helps that

[yordad]

id say its more important that the NT can occupy multiple O-linemen, size basically just helps thatYes. I believe mass would be one of the biggest things to help that. Strength and a low center of gravity would help also, but only combined with size.

[Night Train]

The success track for DT seems to be a 320 lb. min with the ability to tie up and beat the double team. I'm not sure Stroud could be that guy.

A 3-4 would mean we'd need at least 2-3 new LB's. 1-2 DE's...I'm not against the D itself but looking at the roster it increases our needs and we're already maxed out on needs, IMO.

The 4-3 seems more realistic and easier to adjust to.

[BillsWin]

Yes, the 3-4 NT must have enough size and strength to occupy the space in between the center and guards. Often times they must handle double teams and even triple. Size matters when it comes to a 3-4 DT because it helps them do this. Add in the skill it takes to make a play from that position and you have the type of player you need.

[kernowboy]

But aren't we overlooking several NT who don't have such prototypical size but enjoy success at the risk of overdrafting guys based purely on size?

[yordad]

But aren't we overlooking several NT who don't have such prototypical size but enjoy success at the risk of overdrafting guys based purely on size?No matter how ya slice it you are going to take a risk. I think taking that risk on someone who is undersized would be the bigger risk. How many undersized DT have enjoyed success in the NFL in a 3-4?

[YardRat]

Jeff Wright was 6'2", 274 lbs. Mike Lodish was 6'3", 275 lbs.

[YardRat]

Gary Baldinger was between 6'2" and 6'3", 260-264 lbs depending on which bio you read.

[yordad]

Jeff Wright was 6'2", 274 lbs. Mike Lodish was 6'3", 275 lbs.Anyone who has started a game this decade?

[Dicknoze69]

A more recent example is NT Jay Ratliff of the Cowboys. He's roughly 6'5", 278 lbs.

You don't need significant size. Most of the NTs for 3-4 teams this season are ~310 lbs. or so.

[yordad]

A more recent example is NT Jay Ratliff of the Cowboys. He's roughly 6'5", 278 lbs.

You don't need significant size. Most of the NTs for 3-4 teams this season are ~310 lbs. or so.Good example. But, I think we can all agree this is the exception.

[kernowboy]

Kendrick Clancy and Chris Hoke spelled Hampton with the Steelers for considerable periods of time due to his injuries and both were sub 300lbs. The Steelers have had over time a comparatively small line with Aaron Smith and Brett Keisel around 280-290lbs

[yordad]

A more recent example is NT Jay Ratliff of the Cowboys. He's roughly 6'5", 278 lbs.

You don't need significant size. Most of the NTs for 3-4 teams this season are ~310 lbs. or so.Wait, NFL.com has Ratliff listed at 6'4, 303. But, that is smallish, and he has experienced a fair amount of success.

[Dicknoze69]

Good example. But, I think we can all agree this is the exception.

Ratliff was the only one who I could think of off the top of my head. I'd wager the vast majority of NTs who play significant minutes this season are 300 lbs+.

Also, I've seen Ratliff's actual weight figures vary quite a bit this season. I've seen figures anywhere from 270 to 295, so who knows his "actual playing weight".

[yordad]

Kernowboy. If you are interested (I would be interested too), maybe a list of the past 3-4 probowl 3-4 DTs and their weights would illustrate this. I mean, I don't think any of really care if a team or two has some undersized DTs on their roster. We want to know if any of the good ones are undersized, right?

If you have a sec, and want to list the leagues top 5-10ish NTs and look up their weights, I think it could be telling.

[billistic]

The front 3 have to command the attention of (neutralize) at least 4 offensive linemen on running plays. The NT must be a two gap stud, but commanding a double team can spring either from sheer mass/strength or by quick/smart moves inside (Ratliff). The DEs should keep the OT/TE or OT/pulling guard busy on runs, but, ideally, should be able to crash the pocket and harry the OT on passing plays.

[kernowboy]

Bryan Robinson of the Cardinals playing NT is listed at 304lbs.

[YardRat]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/209424-the-top-five-best-3-4-nose-tackles-in-the-nfl

Doesn't have ht/wt, but if you look them up they're all in the 325-350+ range.

[kernowboy]

The front 3 have to command the attention of (neutralize) at least 4 offensive linemen on running plays. The NT must be a two gap stud, but commanding a double team can spring either from sheer mass/strength or by quick/smart moves inside (Ratliff). The DEs should keep the OT/TE or OT/pulling guard busy on runs, but, ideally, should be able to crash the pocket and harry the OT on passing plays.

So as long they have reasonable size, but more importantly technique and strength they can be more than satisfactory.

[billistic]

A more recent example is NT Jay Ratliff of the Cowboys. He's roughly 6'5", 278 lbs.

You don't need significant size. Most of the NTs for 3-4 teams this season are ~310 lbs. or so.

Jay is playing at 305-310 in 2009. Jeff Wright was only able to hold up against inferior opponents. He got pretty well abused against tougher O-lines.

[kernowboy]

Kernowboy. If you are interested (I would be interested too), maybe a list of the past 3-4 probowl 3-4 DTs and their weights would illustrate this. I mean, I don't think any of really care if a team or two has some undersized DTs on their roster. We want to know if any of the good ones are undersized, right?

If you have a sec, and want to list the leagues top 5-10ish NTs and look up their weights, I think it could be telling.

Peters got voted to the ProBowl whilst impersonating a turnstyle so I think the ProBowl is based more on name recognition than actual performance.

[billistic]

Kernowboy. If you are interested (I would be interested too), maybe a list of the past 3-4 probowl 3-4 DTs and their weights would illustrate this. I mean, I don't think any of really care if a team or two has some undersized DTs on their roster. We want to know if any of the good ones are undersized, right?

If you have a sec, and want to list the leagues top 5-10ish NTs and look up their weights, I think it could be telling.

Maybe you should do your own freakin' research, or are you a fat slob of a prototypical NT-type guy?

[yordad]

Peters got voted to the ProBowl whilst impersonating a turnstyle so I think the ProBowl is based more on name recognition than actual performance.That is why I added that you could just come up with your own top 10ish. Whichever you feel might be more accurate.

[Pinkerton Security]

When I think of the dominant NT's, i think of Jamal Williams, Kris Jenkins, Wilfork, and Shaun Rogers. Each of them are very large men, and are also reallly strong and explosive.

[yordad]

Maybe you should do your own freakin' research, or are you a fat slob of a prototypical NT-type guy?I'm not the one who initiated the conversation. I am not sure, but it seems Kerowboy would like to move to a 3-4, and is possibly advocating an undersized guy for the job, most likely with a specific one in mind. He is searching for answers, I am just suggesting a method of research that may provide him with answers, and possibly help him make his case, if he is indeed trying to make one.

Plus, if I was a fat guy wouldn't sitting here looking up this info be something I was actually into doing. Afterall, I wouldn't think my weight, size, or shape being low or fit would correlate with what you are suggesting it would correlate with.

"A skinny person would sit in his chair all day and research it himself"??

[Mahdi]

Reading about the possible swap to this alignment it seems the prototypical NT for this defence is:

6ft2, 330lbs with a 40time of 5.25.

I wonder if we confuse size with strength and whether it might be possible to draft a smaller NT who by technique and agility be a top NT for our team.

For many years the Denver OL was outmatched size wise with almost every opponent but usually came out on top, and also I hear that some of the bigger NTs were essentially two down players who wear down very quickly.

Arthur Jones, 6ft4 and 295lbs is being considered as a 4-3 DT, or a 3-4 DE but I wonder if he might equally suit a 3-4 NT where he plays in college.

He seems to be mostly muscle, extremely strong due a wrestling background and be more than capable as a NT. And he can probably add another 8-15lbs without too much trouble

Guys like Kelly Gregg, Jay Ratliff and Chris Hoke are not the text book behemoths we are told are required at NT such as Wilfork and Jamal Williams, but have been more the adequate in the middle and maybe we need to think outside of the box, and rather than 3 fat men, look to draft players here with genuine athletic ability
Ratliff in Dallas is one of the rare examples of an undersized NTs that succeeds. Though Dallas is not a top run defense they are solid and Ratliff gets good penetration due to his being lighter than most 3-4 NTs.

Typically though, you want a guy that is short enough and heavy enough to drop the anchor and hold up against double teams.

So usually, 6'1 to 6'3,, 320 to 340 is the ideal weight.

[kernowboy]

If Arthur Jones can add about 12-14lbs to his current weight and play at 310lbs I think he has the necessary strength to be a very good NT

[Pinkerton Security]

If Arthur Jones can add about 12-14lbs to his current weight and play at 310lbs I think he has the necessary strength to be a very good NT

I'd love to add a Cuse guy!!

[Buddo]

Seems to me that some of the difficulty with this idea, is that it requires above average to very good technique. This would invariably mean a steep learning curve, and isn't necessarily a recipe for success in the short term. Now I don't know if the kid the OP is thinking of, is likely o be high pick or not, but if he is, then you are definitely in gambling city (again, in respect of the Bills draft).
Imho, if you are going to change a system, you should ensure that the central part of it, is definitely going to work, before making the change.
For this coming off season, I think we are only 2 players off being able to improve our D considerably. Get a good DT and a good LB, and we should be betterthan we have been. While we still do need good play from our current DEs, that additional piece can wait on another draft, or Maybin actually producing something.
Changing to a 3-4, would also mean a certain degree of trying to find the right holes to put square plugs into. For all we have the makings of an excellent secondary, at the end of the day, we would be having to look seriously at a better corner somewhere along the lines. I don't thnk we can overlook the fact that our secondary, as good as it might be, is still a 'cover 2' secondary. McKelvin might be able to become a 'shutdown' corner, but I doubt that Florence is. McGee is perfectly competent to play man coverage, and has done so before, but you do need one 'stellar' corner to make the system work to it's best.

[Preacher]

What it seems that many of you are forgetting however, is that the perfect 3-4 NT NEVER gets his name mentioned on TV.

He DOESNT get upfield... and seldom is SUPPOSED TO.

He seldom gets tackles...and is not supposed to.

Why? Because his job is to make such a mess of the A gaps, that all plays go to his outside... and to take up two blockers on passes, that LB's can blow past the guards and tackles.

Don't look for guys with numbers. Look for guys who aren't mentioned on teams that have very good run defenses... THAT is a good 3-4 NT.

And yes, THOSE guys are usually 320 pounds or more. Because day in and day out, they just don't get moved...

Hoke is good. He is also not sub 300... he is 305, and isn't a starter all season.