Where are all the "meaningless wins" so many talk about?

[Coach Sal]

OK, you all know my position by now.

I think it's never acceptable to lose. You have to hold your teams/people to a higher standard. Just like organizations like the Steelers, Eagles, Pats, and Colts do. (see: PIT yesterday).

I loathe having this discussion year after year about "losing to get a higher pick."

Losing is for losers.
Winning is for winners.

"Losing will make us winners" is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard.

Winning and continually winning is what separates the WINNING organizations from the LOSING ones. It's about culture. Change the culture to one in which winning is acceptable and losing is not. Don't "hope to win" by losing.

So, that being said, the argument for those who want a better pick is that the Bills always have these "meaningless wins" that cost them these great players in the draft.

Really? Let's take a closer look at that.

The fact is the Bills HAVEN'T won all these meaningless games the "let's hope to lose to win" crowd talks about.

Before I present the data, I have to assume everyone actually thinks it's ok to keep winning when you are in playoff contention, right? Because if not, then no games ARE ever meaningful. Here you go:

2008: were at 6-6 headed to December fighting for playoffs. Finished 1-3.
2007: were at 7-6 fighting for playoffs, then finished 0-3.
2006: were at 6-6 fighting for playoffs, then finished 0-2.
2005: were at 4-5 in mid-November. Finished season 1-6.

That's 2-14 in "meaningless" games the past 4 years. That's a full season of 2-14 football, which could be good for the #1 overall pick in most years.

Where are all these "meaningless" wins everyone is talking about?!

Just because some people want to believe they are there and tell others they are there doesn't make it true.

Wow, they beat Cincy and the Broncos when it didn't matter. They also lost the other 14 damn games when they mattered. 2-14 cost them a bunch of pro bowlers? You gotta be kidding me!

Now here's my challenge for the "let's hope to lose" crowd since I already debunked your made-up theory.

Tell me any way or any how this organization is better ON THE FIELD by picking in the top-12 (including a top-10) EVERY YEAR over the same span I just looked at the record (past 4 years)?!

[WeAreArthurMoates]

I'm never for the agruement of losing to get a better draft pick. The only reason I was rooting for losses was so this coaching staff would get an overhaul. Right now it's looking like this, as bad as our offense is, playing a tampa 2 speed defense in this type of climate is moronic. Can't wait for the new staff.

[justasportsfan]

I hate losing I enjoy winning.

[Ebenezer]

It is never better regardless where they pick because of the same FO doing the picking for the last 10 years. The only difference, really, has been the axing of TD.

[Historian]

I'm with Sal on this one.

Winning breeds winning.

Losing.........puh!

[trapezeus]

i think this year is an exception, if Ralph is true to his word. Lose out and get new people who no longer are making cases for mediocre players. i want the bills to show themselves player by player as to who truly has no talent and who has a little fight in them. I don't really care about the W's and L's this year. i want to see if the people like Fred Jackson show the next guy that he has some servicable people. and the likes of denney, kelsay, mitchell, etc show themselves as losers and will be off this team.

[ddaryl]

LMFAO.. You didn't debunk **** Sal...

1st of all I never asked for losses in the years before this one, but after so many years of seeing the playoff light at the end of the tunnel only to see this team just piss it away when it did matter is the reason why I have no desire at all to see the Bills win one more game this year.

Look at all the winning those early wins have bred us down the stretch.... Heck we won more games last season and look at what all that winning did for us this year.... We're considerably worse this season then last season


and I want a higher draft pick for the selfish reason that the only thing enjoyable about Bills football is the offseason, and that becomes more enjoyable for me with a higher pick that we can get a top player or trade back for picks. I really feel this is in the best interest of the Bills moving forward and the best interest in a new GM / HC that will be coming to Buffalo. They are going to want ot make some changes and a higher draft pick supplies some ammunition to do that.

I'm pissing my pants because I am laughing so hard at the notion that somehow any win we had this season is going to breed more wins next year. We all know we have a talent deficiency, and the only way to improve a talent deficinecy is to bring in talent, and the most likely way we are going to build a real team is via the draft, and the odds of getting that coveted player in the draft improves if you have your choice, and the best way to have that choice is to pick earlier then other teams.

but I do sincerely hope everyone who wants these wins is enjoying them, like KC last week. That is sure going to go a long ways towards making us a Superbowl contender in 2010... LMAO

All I know is that a new HC and a GM can change the attitude in Buffalo for next year, but no matter how I look at it I see not one single argument here or anywhere's that says THIS TEAM would be better off winning now and that will translate into a playoff tam in 2010.. Winning this year has nothing to do with it, a real GM/talent evaluator, new coaches, and a few player additions however can make that difference...


There are numeorus players in previous drafts that I wish the Bills had a chance at but because they didn't have a high enough draf tposition they had no chance at those players... OR I would liek to see the Bills trade back and pick up extra day 1 picks but because they weren't drafting high enough the return on vlaue fo r thier pick dictated that it wasn't worth trading back...

[mikemac2001]

patrick willis would look very nice in a bills uni

im all for winning but i also no the odd's

we have better odd's to get the player we want if we didn't win pointless games.... yes winning is great but this year i don't see why it matters there cleaning house.

[yordad]

I'm with ddaryl.

[djjimkelly]

i can see arguments for both sides

since this coaching staff and these qbs wont be back in any real form next year

i think winning and continuity are meaningless

now if we had a 1st year HC and some serious things set in stone on this roster i would agree winning is where it is at.

HOWEVER i truly dont think much of this roster will be around for the long term so how these guys egos get stroked is meaningless to me.

right now with new GM new HC coming in better draft pick is better because i have to hope the next decisions makers at 1 bills drive will do a better job

[yordad]

One win can seriously have a 6+ pick swing. That can be a huge difference. Especially at the top of the draft.

[Coach Sal]

ddaryl, it's not about winning now for next year.

See the forrest through the trees.

It's about winning now and every game and changing a culture to one in which winning is the only acceptable outcome. For now. For next year. For every year.

It has to start at some point.

I'll use a recent college example. Temple hadn't had even a winning season in 19 years! Al Golden was hired, they go 9-3 and get into a bowl game. His quote:
"We had to change the culture. There was a losing mindset."

Yes, it can be done. But not by continually thinking losing is ok.

[justasportsfan]

losing out for a better draft pick is like saving the last piece of chocolate mousse for dinner then your brother comes in and eats it an hour later. Enjoy the present because no one knows what the future brings.

[Mahdi]

ddaryl, it's not about winning now for next year.

See the forrest through the trees.

It's about winning now and every game and changing a culture to one in which winning is the only acceptable outcome. For now. For next year. For every year.

It has to start at some point.

I'll use a recent college example. Temple hadn't had even a winning season in 19 years! Al Golden was hired, they go 9-3 and get into a bowl game. His quote:
"We had to change the culture. There was a losing mindset."

Yes, it can be done. But not by continually thinking losing is ok.
I agree with what you are saying however this team is going to be going through major changes in player personnel and front office.

We have a talent deficiency and we need valuable assets. A high pick in the top 10 is a valuable asset that can be converted into more picks or an elite player. We always seem to be picking once all the cream of the crop are gone and missing out on the best players.

I really dont think beating KC was a move for the future especially considering our coach, QB, LT, GM and scouting department are unknowns going into next year.

[yordad]

ddaryl, it's not about winning now for next year.

See the forrest through the trees.

It's about winning now and every game and changing a culture to one in which winning is the only acceptable outcome. For now. For next year. For every year.

It has to start at some point.

I'll use a recent college example. Temple hadn't had even a winning season in 19 years! Al Golden was hired, they go 9-3 and get into a bowl game. His quote:
"We had to change the culture. There was a losing mindset."

Yes, it can be done. But not by continually thinking losing is ok.But, did that change come from winning two games the prior your in stead of one, or did it come from getting a new coach?

[yordad]

I would just rather something tangible, like I higher draft pic, rather then some rah rah that will be forgotten in 2 days.

[Historian]

ddaryl,"We had to change the culture. There was a losing mindset."

Yes, it can be done. But not by continually thinking losing is ok.

And bear in mind...not everybody is going to be outta here. A core of players will have to be kept, otherwise we wouldn't be able to field a team.

Not to mention, we draft so poorly in the first round, it would be a wasted enterprise anyways.

[The Juice Is Loose]

One thing I'm sick of is that people seem to think what us fans hope or want has anything to do with the team.

Since the Cleveland game, I have been hoping for miserable failure, so that it would usher in a change from Ralph down to the players.

When the clock strikes 1 or 4:15, I put on my Bills hat and my TO jersey and I hope the Bills win. I watched the entire game yesterday, cheering on my team, wanting them to win.

But the fact is, if we had lost to the Jets and Carolina, we'd be 3- and the rest and be in excellent position to add a SUPERSTAR to this team.

How many superstars do we have now? TO? He's got one foot out the door. Lee? 0 pro bowls. Lynch? 1 alternate pro bowl trip.

Our brightest star is our ******* punter for christ's sake!

Don't mistake fans being realistic with the attitude of the team. The team has a loser attitude, and what we say or do has nothing to do with it. Last time I checked there are 70K+ at every game, cheering on the Bills to a hopefull victory! If I was Fewell, and I got the interim job, I'd be trying to win.

But the fact is, the season ended when we couldn't put up 4 points on Cleveland, at home. So from there, hoping we get a good enough position to actually get the guy we actually covet for once, will be nice.

Think about it: We wanted Maybin to be Eugene Monroe or Orakpo

We wanted Lynch to be Peterson or Willis

The people on this board are obviously here because we all share the same OBSESSION with this ****ty team. We all want whats best for the Bills. And, in this case, the best draft pick possible is the only real consolation from this miserable season.

Especially considering the fact that we're going to have a new coach and regime next season. Let's just load the ship up the best we can for them, so they can take over and have the best chance possible to be competitve moving forward.

[ddaryl]

ddaryl, it's not about winning now for next year.

See the forrest through the trees.

It's about winning now and every game and changing a culture to one in which winning is the only acceptable outcome. For now. For next year. For every year.

It has to start at some point.

I'll use a recent college example. Temple hadn't had even a winning season in 19 years! Al Golden was hired, they go 9-3 and get into a bowl game. His quote:
"We had to change the culture. There was a losing mindset."

Yes, it can be done. But not by continually thinking losing is ok.


NOTHING the Bills do now or the rest of this year will have such efffect IMO, and I'm sorry but I find that thought process a bit reaching. If this team was coming off a 2-14 seaosn and we upgraded to 5-9 with 2 games left then I would say yes winning out might provide that spark to start next year. BUT the fact is we are coming off of 3 consecutive 7-9 seasons and this team is poised to match that win total at best...

New HC new GM and some new talent will however make that change. Winning now does nothing but move us further back in draft position. I beleive a new GM / HC would like better draft position to start their Buffalo careers and provide a better option for getting talent i here, wether that would come from a coveted player, or a trade back scenario.

Up until this year I never wished for losses... but I've had enough, and I all fo rstarting this culture of winnin gwhen we get that new GM new HC and new talent... but until then I do not beleive that anything we do this year changes anything for next year. What changes things for next year is plain and simply new personel


but none the less I am not worried. I am positve we will lose the next 2 games

[Coach Sal]

I would just rather something tangible, like I higher draft pic, rather then some rah rah that will be forgotten in 2 days.

If you really think that's what I just wrote, you have no clue what I'm talking about or mean.

[yordad]

If you really think that's what I just wrote, you have no clue what I'm talking about or mean.I know exactly what you are talking about, I just disagree.

I think better players will have a bigger impact than winning a meaningless game a year ago.

It isn't like I am asking players to not try. I am asking management to plan for the future a little bit more, that's all. If we have higher skilled, but less experienced depth, now is the time to see what they can do.

All of our eggs shouldn't be put in some meaningless basket. We should not be in "win now" mode.

Heck, many PLAYOFF teams rest their starters if their position is locked up. By your rationale, they should NEVER do that, huh?

[yordad]

Why don't yall take a look at the past half dozen or so drafts. Why don't yall compare who was taken 6-8 to who was taken 12-14th.

Actually, if we win the last 2 games, compare it to 15th-17th.

[yordad]

Wanting the Bills to win now would be like sex with a prostitute, IMO. Could be fun a bit, but next thing you know your like "Crap, now I have VD, and I'm short on rent".

[ddaryl]

losing out for a better draft pick is like saving the last piece of chocolate mousse for dinner then your brother comes in and eats it an hour later. Enjoy the present because no one knows what the future brings.

What ?

Where do you guys come up with some of this stuff. That analogy kinda sucks.

It should read more like


losing out for a better draft pick is like saving the last piece of chocolate mousse for dinner, and somebody eats it on you, but then your brother comes over and brings you 10 pieces of Chocolate Mousses 5 months later. Enjoy the possibilities of the future because eveyone knows that the present only saved us 1 piece of chocalte mousse that was eaten by somebody else.

1 or 2 more wins this season does nothing.. and I won't enjoy those wins. I was pretty upset after they beat KC.. in fact it ruined my Sunday, I did not enjoy that at all.

The fact is a new HC a new GM and some new talent will be capable of changing this teams attitude to a winning attitude. 2 completely meaningless wins that push us further back in the draft order will have NO effect on next year. Notta Zippo Zilch.

[DraftBoy]

I agree with what you are saying however this team is going to be going through major changes in player personnel and front office.

We have a talent deficiency and we need valuable assets. A high pick in the top 10 is a valuable asset that can be converted into more picks or an elite player. We always seem to be picking once all the cream of the crop are gone and missing out on the best players.

I really dont think beating KC was a move for the future especially considering our coach, QB, LT, GM and scouting department are unknowns going into next year.


I wan to concentrate on this phrase right here, because Ive seen it maybe 50 times in recent weeks in some form or another. We know that this is the intent of a top 10 pick however, its not what actually happens in lots of cases. Teams like Cincy, Cleveland, Washington, and Arizona all have multiple years of having top 10 picks but continually blow them. Similar to us, just because we are top 10 does not guarantee us an elite player by any means.

[trapezeus]

i think DJJimkelly makes the best point here.

These players aren't going to be part of the future, hopefully. If you had a nucleus then, yes, win and win often. but we are looking at a new QB, at least 2 starters in the LB core, a legit DE to help Schobel and another to possibly replace him.

With that being the case, look at the saints, the falcons, the dolphins. none have been mired in the same level of crappiness as us, but when the new regime came in and a few core players showed up, the result changed immediately.

and i think that's where Sals point becomes important. for young core players, winning will breed winning. sneaking out a tough win in the end builds confidence.

But the bills right now is like Enron at the very end. People have no idea if they'll have a job 3 weeks from now, they've started to looking and morale sucks. To hear a boss come out and be like, "let's keep a high head and see our way through this." actually makes it worse in some ways.

[ddaryl]

I wan to concentrate on this phrase right here, because Ive seen it maybe 50 times in recent weeks in some form or another. We know that this is the intent of a top 10 pick however, its not what actually happens in lots of cases. Teams like Cincy, Cleveland, Washington, and Arizona all have multiple years of having top 10 picks but continually blow them. Similar to us, just because we are top 10 does not guarantee us an elite player by any means.


Which is where a new GM and new HC come into our equation... AND that new GM and new HC is going to want to have as much ammunition they can get...

but I do agree with the premise of our reply.. picking higher up doesn't guarentee success.. (see the Maybin Oher Orakpo Cushing dillema of 2009)

but in the right hands it does go a long way towards changing a teams direction.

We can equally point out how many picks in the top 10 have gone a long ways towards changing a teams fortune. Off the top of my hear Peyton Manning, Ben Rothesburger, Eli Manning (changed both San Diego and NYG fortunes)

In 2007 Minnesota drafted 7th overall and took Adrian Peterson. If the Vikings had won 1 or2 more games would they have had a shot at Adrian Peterson ??

In 2008 Atlanta drafted #3 overall and took Matt Ryan. If they won a few more games would they have a post Vick QB or would they be more like the Bills and struggling at the QB position

In 2006 the Buffalo Bills drafted #8 overall. If they would have won a few more games in 2005 do you think they would have had any shot at Donte Whitner :dolfan:

[DraftBoy]

i think DJJimkelly makes the best point here.

These players aren't going to be part of the future, hopefully. If you had a nucleus then, yes, win and win often. but we are looking at a new QB, at least 2 starters in the LB core, a legit DE to help Schobel and another to possibly replace him.

With that being the case, look at the saints, the falcons, the dolphins. none have been mired in the same level of crappiness as us, but when the new regime came in and a few core players showed up, the result changed immediately.

and i think that's where Sals point becomes important. for young core players, winning will breed winning. sneaking out a tough win in the end builds confidence.

But the bills right now is like Enron at the very end. People have no idea if they'll have a job 3 weeks from now, they've started to looking and morale sucks. To hear a boss come out and be like, "let's keep a high head and see our way through this." actually makes it worse in some ways.

The Falcons and Dolphins are both potential non-playoff teams this year, I dont want a one year wonder team.

[DraftBoy]

Which is where a new GM and new HC come into our equation... AND that new GM and new HC is going to want to have as much ammunition they can get...

but I do agree with the premise of our reply.. picking higher up doesn't guarentee success.. (see the Maybin Oher Orakpo Cushing dillema of 2009)

but in the right hands it does go a long way towards changing a teams direction.

We can equally point out how many picks in the top 10 have gone a long ways towards changing a teams fortune. Off the top of my hear Peyton Manning, Ben Rothesburger, Eli Manning (changed both San Diego and NYG fortunes)

In 2007 Minnesota drafted 7th overall and took Adrian Peterson. If the Vikings had won 1 or2 more games would they have had a shot at Adrian Peterson ??

In 2008 Atlanta drafted #3 overall and took Matt Ryan. If they won a few more games would they have a post Vick QB or would they be more like the Bills and struggling at the QB position

In 2006 the Buffalo Bills drafted #8 overall. If they would have won a few more games in 2007 do you think they would have had any shot at Donte Whitner :dolfan:

My response;

Do you think Peterson is the sole reason for Minny's success? How about Ryan in Atlanta?

Or is Whitner the sole reason for Buffalo's failures?

It takes more than just hitting a top 10 pick. Atlanta rode Michael Turner last year to the playoffs, it was not about Matt Ryan, he did what he had to do so they wouldn't lose game. Similar to how Minnesota is riding Favre's arm this year.

It takes many peices falling into place to make this work, not just top 10 picks.

[trapezeus]

i'd take a one year wonder team at this point.

[DraftBoy]

i'd take a one year wonder team at this point.

And Id say thats setteling for mediocrity. Which is exactly what we don't want. No offense.

[Nighthawk]

OK, you all know my position by now.

I think it's never acceptable to lose. You have to hold your teams/people to a higher standard. Just like organizations like the Steelers, Eagles, Pats, and Colts do. (see: PIT yesterday).

I loathe having this discussion year after year about "losing to get a higher pick."

Losing is for losers.
Winning is for winners.

"Losing will make us winners" is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard.

Winning and continually winning is what separates the WINNING organizations from the LOSING ones. It's about culture. Change the culture to one in which winning is acceptable and losing is not. Don't "hope to win" by losing.

So, that being said, the argument for those who want a better pick is that the Bills always have these "meaningless wins" that cost them these great players in the draft.

Really? Let's take a closer look at that.

The fact is the Bills HAVEN'T won all these meaningless games the "let's hope to lose to win" crowd talks about.

Before I present the data, I have to assume everyone actually thinks it's ok to keep winning when you are in playoff contention, right? Because if not, then no games ARE ever meaningful. Here you go:

2008: were at 6-6 headed to December fighting for playoffs. Finished 1-3.
2007: were at 7-6 fighting for playoffs, then finished 0-3.
2006: were at 6-6 fighting for playoffs, then finished 0-2.
2005: were at 4-5 in mid-November. Finished season 1-6.

That's 2-14 in "meaningless" games the past 4 years. That's a full season of 2-14 football, which could be good for the #1 overall pick in most years.

Where are all these "meaningless" wins everyone is talking about?!

Just because some people want to believe they are there and tell others they are there doesn't make it true.

Wow, they beat Cincy and the Broncos when it didn't matter. They also lost the other 14 damn games when they mattered. 2-14 cost them a bunch of pro bowlers? You gotta be kidding me!

Now here's my challenge for the "let's hope to lose" crowd since I already debunked your made-up theory.

Tell me any way or any how this organization is better ON THE FIELD by picking in the top-12 (including a top-10) EVERY YEAR over the same span I just looked at the record (past 4 years)?!

Tell me how they are any better by winning one more game in another losing season, under the guidance of leadership that won't be here next year? Stop with the preaching and just realize that there are two sides to the story. Ultimately, everybody wants a winner...you spinning it so that it looks like people don't want that is laughable. People try to find things that make it worth watching such a miserable product on the field and they try to find something positive that comes with another loss...that happens to be a higher draft pick and hope for a total housecleaning. If you think that is wrong, fine, but please, stop with the preaching like you're all knowing and everything that comes out of your mouth is biblical.

[yordad]

The Falcons and Dolphins are both potential non-playoff teams this year, I dont want a one year wonder team.DB, feel free to illustrate your point by listing the past 5-10 or so years worth of draft picks from 5-8, and the draft picks from 14-17. I am pretty sure you won't be happy posting your findings.

Other then that, calling a team a one hit wonder actually works against the case you are trying to make.

[yordad]

It takes many peices falling into place to make this work, not just top 10 picks.Agreed, but as you just admitted, the top 10 pick is a "piece". Whereas, I don't believe a meaningless win from a year ago with a lame duck coaching staff is.

[Nighthawk]

And Id say thats setteling for mediocrity. Which is exactly what we don't want. No offense.

I agree...I want this franchise to finally address the problems and start building a winner that produces year in and year out. I'd like to watch on Sundays a team I actually like again and can totally lose my mind about. Right now it's like watching a JV team...and a very bad one at that.

[kernowboy]

A higher pick however provides more choice as well as increase the likelihood that teams will want to talk to you.

[Mahdi]

I wan to concentrate on this phrase right here, because Ive seen it maybe 50 times in recent weeks in some form or another. We know that this is the intent of a top 10 pick however, its not what actually happens in lots of cases. Teams like Cincy, Cleveland, Washington, and Arizona all have multiple years of having top 10 picks but continually blow them. Similar to us, just because we are top 10 does not guarantee us an elite player by any means.
Well lets see,

Cleveland recently drafted Joe Thomas and Braylon Edwards, both of whom already made the PB and are excellent players. Once Braylon gets consistent QBing he will return to star status. Thomas is one of the best OT in the NFL.

They also used last year's #5 overall to grab more picks and add Alex Mack who looks like a future PBer himself.

Detroit has picked good players themselves, Roy Williams was a good player til things fell apart in their offense but they still picked up a first and a 3rd round pick for him.

Stafford looks like he is going to be a very good QB.

Washington got one of the best safeties ever in Shawn Taylor at #5 overall and also picked up Chris Samuels in the top five a few years ago.

Cincy got Andre Smith last year who we still know nothing about, they got a franchise superstar QB in Palmer and also landed Keith Rivers who is one of the best OLBs in the NFL right now.

Miami got Jake Long who is a beast and the Falcons turned things around with Matt Ryan.

A high first also means a high second rounder that gives teams like Miami and Atlanta to choose more great players before other choose such as Philip Merling and Curtis Lofton.

Picking high does not guarantee anything but these days with all that goes into drafting the margin of error is much smaller at the top of the draft.

[yordad]

Should playoff teams not rest their starters for fear of creating a losing mentality? Not only for their playoff game, but on into NEXT YEAR?

[Nighthawk]

Should playoff teams not rest their starters for fear of creating a losing mentality?

Ha, ha...good point.

[Mahdi]

The Falcons and Dolphins are both potential non-playoff teams this year, I dont want a one year wonder team.
Right, however, when drafting the goal is to make sure you add good players to your team.

You cant deny Long and Ryan are franchise players. Whether they are competitive football teams or not has nothing to do with success in the draft. Everything has to be properly put together.

And either way, since those guys were drafted they have become much better teams that compete every Sunday and have a chance to win. And their futures look bright.

[DraftBoy]

DB, feel free to illustrate your point by listing the past 5-10 or so years worth of draft picks from 5-8, and the draft picks from 14-17. I am pretty sure you won't be happy posting your findings.

Other then that, calling a team a one hit wonder actually works against the case you are trying to make.

Have you watched Atlanta play this season? Have you seen how they look compared to last year? Atlanta severely over acheived last season, their OL was bad, but Turner made it look better. Their D had holes and it still does. They are not yet a perennial playoff contender.

I do love a fun challenge, though your parameters are off so I choose my own. I went back to 2000-2008 and looked at all pick 6-10 v. picks 11-15. I did this because we won't be top 5 and won't pick below 10, so it was a fair comparison, and I do love being right as well.

2000-
6-10:
Thomas Jones
Plaxico
Brian Urlacher
11-15:
John Abraham
Bubba Franks
Shaun Ellis

2001-
6-10:
Richard Seymour
11-15:
Marcus Stround

2002-
6-10:
Byrant McKinnie
John Henderson
Levi Jones
11-15:
Dwight Freeney
Jeremy Shockey
Albert Haynesworth

2003-
6-10:
Jordan Gross
Kevin Williams
Terrell Suggs
11-15:
Marcus Trufant
Ty Warren

2004-
6-10:
Kellen Winslow
Dunta Robinson
11-15:
Big Ben
Lee Evans
Jonathan Vilma
Tommie Harris

2005-
6-10:
Antrel Rolle
11-15:
DeMarcus Ware
Jamaal Brown
Shawn Merriman
Thomas Davis
Derrick Johnson

2006-
6-10:
Vernon Davis
Ernie Sims
11-15:
Jay Cutler
Haloti Ngata
Kamerion Wimbley

2007-
6-10:
Laron Landry
Adrian Peterson
Amobi Okoye
11-15:
Patrick Willis
Marshawn Lynch
Darelle Revis
Lawrence Timmons

2008-
6-10:
Keith Rivers
Jerrod Mayo
Leodis McKelvin
11-15:
Ryan Clady
Brandon Albert

So in doing this Im showing that picks 11-15 can be just as valuable, if not more so in many year, than a top 10 pick. So winning a few extra years breads winning amongst our young core players, and allows us to still get potential elite players in the top half of the first round. Which is where we are guaranteed to pick.

[yordad]

Have you watched Atlanta play this season? Have you seen how they look compared to last year? Atlanta severely over acheived last season, their OL was bad, but Turner made it look better. Their D had holes and it still does. They are not yet a perennial playoff contender.

I do love a fun challenge, though your parameters are off so I choose my own. I went back to 2000-2008 and looked at all pick 6-10 v. picks 11-15. I did this because we won't be top 5 and won't pick below 10, so it was a fair comparison, and I do love being right as well.

2000-
6-10:
Thomas Jones
Plaxico
Brian Urlacher
11-15:
John Abraham
Bubba Franks
Shaun Ellis

2001-
6-10:
Richard Seymour
11-15:
Marcus Stround

2002-
6-10:
Byrant McKinnie
John Henderson
Levi Jones
11-15:
Dwight Freeney
Jeremy Shockey
Albert Haynesworth

2003-
6-10:
Jordan Gross
Kevin Williams
Terrell Suggs
11-15:
Marcus Trufant
Ty Warren

2004-
6-10:
Kellen Winslow
Dunta Robinson
11-15:
Big Ben
Lee Evans
Jonathan Vilma
Tommie Harris

2005-
6-10:
Antrel Rolle
11-15:
DeMarcus Ware
Jamaal Brown
Shawn Merriman
Thomas Davis
Derrick Johnson

2006-
6-10:
Vernon Davis
Ernie Sims
11-15:
Jay Cutler
Haloti Ngata
Kamerion Wimbley

2007-
6-10:
Laron Landry
Adrian Peterson
Amobi Okoye
11-15:
Patrick Willis
Marshawn Lynch
Darelle Revis
Lawrence Timmons

2008-
6-10:
Keith Rivers
Jerrod Mayo
Leodis McKelvin
11-15:
Ryan Clady
Brandon Albert

So in doing this Im showing that picks 11-15 can be just as valuable, if not more so in many year, than a top 10 pick. So winning a few extra years breads winning amongst our young core players, and allows us to still get potential elite players in the top half of the first round. Which is where we are guaranteed to pick.Dude, 2 wins could literally be the difference between picking 5th or 16th. And, why didn't you list them all?

[yordad]

Oh, please explain why the Falcons died off after breeding such a winning culture the previous year?

[Coach Sal]

Tell me how they are any better by winning one more game in another losing season, under the guidance of leadership that won't be here next year? Stop with the preaching and just realize that there are two sides to the story. Ultimately, everybody wants a winner...you spinning it so that it looks like people don't want that is laughable. People try to find things that make it worth watching such a miserable product on the field and they try to find something positive that comes with another loss...that happens to be a higher draft pick and hope for a total housecleaning. If you think that is wrong, fine, but please, stop with the preaching like you're all knowing and everything that comes out of your mouth is biblical.

You have a major persecution complex.

If you think someone starting a thread -- simply stating their opinion -- like hundreds of others that are started every week, is "preaching" and trying to sound "biblical," that is clearly your problem not mine.

This is a message board. It's for the sharing of ideas and opinions. We all want the Bills to win. We just have different ideas on how to get there. If you can't handle reading others' opinions without sounding like the next post office worker about to bring a gun to the lobby, maybe you should step back for a little while and learn what message boards are all about.

And way to dodge the question yet again.

[DraftBoy]

Dude, 2 wins could literally be the difference between picking 5th or 16th. And, why didn't you list them all?

I listed only those picks that made an impact, not the busts.

Could be yes, but Ive proven that picking that low can produce as many if not more elite talent than picking above it.

[Nighthawk]

Have you watched Atlanta play this season? Have you seen how they look compared to last year? Atlanta severely over acheived last season, their OL was bad, but Turner made it look better. Their D had holes and it still does. They are not yet a perennial playoff contender.

I do love a fun challenge, though your parameters are off so I choose my own. I went back to 2000-2008 and looked at all pick 6-10 v. picks 11-15. I did this because we won't be top 5 and won't pick below 10, so it was a fair comparison, and I do love being right as well.

2000-
6-10:
Thomas Jones
Plaxico
Brian Urlacher
11-15:
John Abraham
Bubba Franks
Shaun Ellis

2001-
6-10:
Richard Seymour
11-15:
Marcus Stround

2002-
6-10:
Byrant McKinnie
John Henderson
Levi Jones
11-15:
Dwight Freeney
Jeremy Shockey
Albert Haynesworth

2003-
6-10:
Jordan Gross
Kevin Williams
Terrell Suggs
11-15:
Marcus Trufant
Ty Warren

2004-
6-10:
Kellen Winslow
Dunta Robinson
11-15:
Big Ben
Lee Evans
Jonathan Vilma
Tommie Harris

2005-
6-10:
Antrel Rolle
11-15:
DeMarcus Ware
Jamaal Brown
Shawn Merriman
Thomas Davis
Derrick Johnson

2006-
6-10:
Vernon Davis
Ernie Sims
11-15:
Jay Cutler
Haloti Ngata
Kamerion Wimbley

2007-
6-10:
Laron Landry
Adrian Peterson
Amobi Okoye
11-15:
Patrick Willis
Marshawn Lynch
Darelle Revis
Lawrence Timmons

2008-
6-10:
Keith Rivers
Jerrod Mayo
Leodis McKelvin
11-15:
Ryan Clady
Brandon Albert

So in doing this Im showing that picks 11-15 can be just as valuable, if not more so in many year, than a top 10 pick. So winning a few extra years breads winning amongst our young core players, and allows us to still get potential elite players in the top half of the first round. Which is where we are guaranteed to pick.

Although I agree that a top 10 pick does not guarantee success in drafting, it is also true, that winning one or two additional games in a losing season doesn't exactly breed a winning culture. You know what is "meaningless"? This arguement because neither side can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that what they say is actually correct. All I want is a team that is going to have new management who can actually make the right choices, no matter if it is in the top 10 or not and a team that is actually good and can win on a competitive basis. That is not in place right now, so I'm going to find something to make being a Bills fan more enjoyable and that is the prospect of a better draft pick and a better management team that would come with more losses to end this putrid season. I don't really understand why this is such a hard concept? Fans need SOMETHING to get excited about...this team on Sundays doesn't do it for anybody.

[DraftBoy]

Oh, please explain why the Falcons died off after breeding such a winning culture the previous year?

Injuries, Lack of Depth, Bad OL, Bad D.

Need I go on?

[Nighthawk]

You have a major persecution complex.

If you think someone starting a thread -- simply stating their opinion -- like hundreds of others that are started every week, is "preaching" and trying to sound "biblical," that is clearly your problem not mine.

This is a message board. It's for the sharing of ideas and opinions. We all want the Bills to win. We just have different ideas on how to get there. If you can't handle reading others' opinions without sounding like the next post office worker about to bring a gun to the lobby, maybe you should step back for a little while and learn what message boards are all about.

And way to dodge the question yet again.

Stop with the spinning...you wrote it, I called you out on it...get over it. Oh, also, I answered your question...time and time again in all of my posts. If you can't read and it's too complicated for you to understand, then I'm sorry.

[Coach Sal]

The thread premise has been missed by many of you, or at least we've gone off into other areas.

Again. The Bills HAVE lost ALMOST ALL of their "meaningless" games the last 4 years. Yet they still suck.

So, unless you just think they should immediately forfeit and go 0-16, or don't believe they should win games when they are still in playoff contention, there's not much more they could have done to enhance their draft spot over the last 4 years, anyway.

Yet they still suck. Why is that?

[Coach Sal]

Stop with the spinning...you wrote it, I called you out on it...get over it. Oh, also, I answered your question...time and time again in all of my posts. If you can't read and it's too complicated for you to understand, then I'm sorry.

Called me out on what?

Stating my opinion?

Yeah. Guilty as charged.

Get over your persecution complex. It's a message board. We discuss, debate, and share opinions.

Others have been able to handle it without crying about it. You obviously can't.

[Nighthawk]

Called me out on what?

Stating my opinion?

Yeah. Guilty as charged.

Get over your persecution complex. It's a message board. We discuss, debate, and share opinions.

Others have been able to handle it without crying about it. You obviously can't.

Who's crying...I think it's you because I disagree with you and how you write things about people who disagree with you. I don't mind you having an opinion, that what message boards are about, but you are constantly preaching about this subject and it gets old. We all know how you feel...fine...why start another thread about it???

[Nighthawk]

The thread premise has been missed by many of you, or at least we've gone off into other areas.

Again. The Bills HAVE lost ALMOST ALL of their "meaningless" games the last 4 years. Yet they still suck.

So, unless you just think they should immediately forfeit and go 0-16, or don't believe they should win games when they are still in playoff contention, there's not much more they could have done to enhance their draft spot over the last 4 years, anyway.

Yet they still suck. Why is that?

Also, here's a question to you...those games that they won...did they help breed winning these passed couple of years? Nothing against you, but this discussion is a discussion that nobody can win.

[Coach Sal]

...why start another thread about it???

It's the first thread I ever started about it.

And it's already 3 pages and running, so it obviously is a good topic of discussion.

[yordad]

Injuries, Lack of Depth, Bad OL, Bad D.

Need I go on?Well, first, you are now admitting that previous season meant jack. And second, a higher draft pick would have helped then.

[Philagape]

I don't mind you having an opinion, that what message boards are about, but you are constantly preaching about this subject and it gets old. We all know how you feel...fine...why start another thread about it???

I know!!! There's also this other guy who goes on and on every week about how much Perry Fool sucks! :D

[yordad]

DB, just so you know I fully plan on looking over things later, seeing where the Bills are now, projecting where then will be with 2 more wins, and then compiling a comprehensive list. :up:

[Coach Sal]

Also, here's a question to you...those games that they won...did they help breed winning these passed couple of years? Nothing against you, but this discussion is a discussion that nobody can win.

THAT'S THE POINT -- They HAVEN'T won virtually any meaningless games!!

2-14 !!!

What games are you talking about? Two!? Holy cow!

No, you don't change any kind of culture by winning 2/16 games. That's my point!! So of course it hasn't breeded any winning. Because they haven't won.

Try winnning those games and seeing what happens. Beating a NE team that needs to win to make the playoffs......beating a IND team going for 16-0......start winning them (not just once, but over a period of time), and YES, that's how the culture begins to be changed. Those are culture-changing wins for organizations.

Now answer MY challenge -- is this team ANY better on the field at all by LOSING almost every late season game they've played AND picking in the top-12 every year for the past 4 years?!

[Dr. Lecter]

I know!!! There's also this other guy who goes on and on every week about how much Perry Fool sucks! :D

That is a very good point.

[Dr. Lecter]

I get so frustrated reading these discussions.

The goal of any team, at any time is to win. Winning should be the only acceptable outcome at all times. We, as fans, derided Dick Jauron and his lose close attitude. We hated seeing Mularkey and Williams lose game after game. And now, we are supposed to have a lose first attitude? C'mon.

Besides, as Sal has stated a number of times, that is only a sub-part of this thread. People have complained about the team winning "meaningless" games in the past. That is simply untrue. They have not won those games. They have been losing in November and December for years.

Fact of the matter is that the fans that go to the games don't pay to see the team lose. I have seen enough of that in the past ten years to last me the rest of my life. I want to see wins. I want them to beat Atlanta next week and I sure as hell want them to beat the likely to be undefeated Colts in week 17. Winning is not just about ability and talent. It is also about mental, emotional and psychological well-being. The players on this team like Byrd, Maybin, Evans, Wood, Levitre, Nelson, Ellis, Harris, Whitner, McGee, Jackson, Lynch, Hardy, Johnson (Steve and Spencer) and so on need to be around wins. They need to be able to learn how to lead teams to victory.

It further confuses me as to how anybody that has ever competed at any level of athletics can ever think losing is OK. I was always the worst player on all of my teams, but losing still almost made me physically ill. I would literally feel churning in my stomach. I would have to contain my anger.

Jimmy Connors said it best: "I hate to lose more than I love to win"

This whole lose now, so you win in the future is bull ****. And has been proven to not be true, just as the winning meaningless games crap has been.

[yordad]

AGAIN: Then why do playoff teams rest their starter all the time??

[Dr. Lecter]

AGAIN: Then why do playoff teams rest their starter all the time??

My God, some (most?) of your arguments are asinine and are so off the point.

Either you don't get it or you just like to post random crap that has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

[The Juice Is Loose]

BTW if you only win 5 games, do any wins have meaning?

This is like a haiku.

I'd rather go 0-16 than 5-11.

[yordad]

My God, some (most?) of your arguments are asinine and are so off the point.

Either you don't get it or you just like to post random crap that has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.If you do not see the correlation then you are blind.

Then again, if I just made this statement I would probably conveniently fail to see the point too.


The goal of any team, at any time is to win. Winning should be the only acceptable outcome at all times.

[yordad]

And, if players psychy is so frail, why does preseason not matter?

[ddaryl]

I get so frustrated reading these discussions.

The goal of any team, at any time is to win. Winning should be the only acceptable outcome at all times. We, as fans, derided Dick Jauron and his lose close attitude. We hated seeing Mularkey and Williams lose game after game. And now, we are supposed to have a lose first attitude? C'mon.

Besides, as Sal has stated a number of times, that is only a sub-part of this thread. People have complained about the team winning "meaningless" games in the past. That is simply untrue. They have not won those games. They have been losing in November and December for years.

Fact of the matter is that the fans that go to the games don't pay to see the team lose. I have seen enough of that in the past ten years to last me the rest of my life. I want to see wins. I want them to beat Atlanta next week and I sure as hell want them to beat the likely to be undefeated Colts in week 17. Winning is not just about ability and talent. It is also about mental, emotional and psychological well-being. The players on this team like Byrd, Maybin, Evans, Wood, Levitre, Nelson, Ellis, Harris, Whitner, McGee, Jackson, Lynch, Hardy, Johnson (Steve and Spencer) and so on need to be around wins. They need to be able to learn how to lead teams to victory.

It further confuses me as to how anybody that has ever competed at any level of athletics can ever think losing is OK. I was always the worst player on all of my teams, but losing still almost made me physically ill. I would literally feel churning in my stomach. I would have to contain my anger.

Jimmy Connors said it best: "I hate to lose more than I love to win"

This whole lose now, so you win in the future is bull ****. And has been proven to not be true, just as the winning meaningless games crap has been.


None of what you posted means anything in the grand scheme. Jauron was a loser and losing did him in. BUT This team is still a loser without Jauron and that can only be repaired by HC change, GM addition and talent additions.. not meaningless wins at the end of a seaosn we all want to forget.

Winning a few more games this year DOES ABSOLULTY NOTHING TO CHANGE ANY SORT OF ATTITUDE THIS ORGANIZATION HAS.


Every single argument presented by the "You always play to win" crowd I find to be laughable... This teams losing ways won't be changed until the changes happen from the top down 1st.

Now if the Bills were 2-14 last season and were showing improvement this year with th epossibility of improving to 7-9 then I would say winning was in the best interest to the future of this club, but that is not the case. In fact we've been 7-9 for 3 season before this and at best we can match it this year. I really fail to see how a 4th consecutive 7-9 season just breeds a winning attitude.

the funniest thing is the Bills are out there playing to win and yet they still look like complete dog crap. Which screams the obviousness of my argument. this team is not a couple wins away from changing its recent fate. They are a complete franchise overhaul away from changing the direction of this franchise... which includes bringing in the best most talented players they can, and with the uncapped FA rules this year the draft is more important this year then the last few IMO...

SO I'm happier with every loss. I would like to see the BIlls actually play close compatitive games but I have no desire to see them put up any more W's in the win column this year.. I'm just waiting patiently for this seaosn to end

[Coach Sal]

AGAIN: Then why do playoff teams rest their starter all the time??

OK.

Let's go back to 2004.

Bills needed a win to make the playoffs. Steelers already have everything wrapped up, including home field. So, Pittsburgh uses it's JV team, errrr, backups, to play the Bills.

What happened?

The Steelers still won. Why?

Because that organization holds everyone to a certain standard. A standard of winning and accountability to win.

Didn't matter who played in that game for them.
Didn't matter what round they were drafted.
Didn't matter what position they played.
Didn't matter how much money they made.
Didn't matter the game was "meaningless."

If they were on the field, they were expected to play their ass off and win.

And they did.

That's why that organization has won 2 Super Bowl's this decade, despite drafting near the bottom of the 1st round every year.....and why we keep sucking despite drafting near the top.

[Mr. Pink]

The thread premise has been missed by many of you, or at least we've gone off into other areas.

Again. The Bills HAVE lost ALMOST ALL of their "meaningless" games the last 4 years. Yet they still suck.

So, unless you just think they should immediately forfeit and go 0-16, or don't believe they should win games when they are still in playoff contention, there's not much more they could have done to enhance their draft spot over the last 4 years, anyway.

Yet they still suck. Why is that?


They suck because the talent evaluators at OBD is and has been the biggest problem in the organization for the better part of the decade.

It doesn't matter if we picked 1st, 5th, 10th, 25th...they'd still screw it up.

[Ginger Vitis]

Some posters assume if you have a top 10 pick you can automatically trade down down and pick up extra picks.. It takes 2 to tango..Sure the Browns traded back last year with the Jets but in the last 10 years it rarely happens..

[Mad Bomber]

Wow, Sal, I just finished posting something similar. I guess great minds think alike lol.

There is no such thing as a meaningless win. The team you have today is the team you will have next year. Losing out so you can get *ONE* player a little higher is NOT...I repeat NOT....going to make you a better team instantly. What I have been looking for is for the draft choices we have gotten in the past few years, as well as the veterans, to show some signs of developing a winning culture. You need to build such a winning culture to become a playoff team...new players/draft choices need to be incorporated into such a culture to become WINNERS.

People who want us to lose out are showing a loser's mentality, and don't understand that getting one highly touted player will not turn a franchise around.

[jamze132]

Maybe if our FO new how to properly scout college football players, it wouldn't matter where we were in the draft.

[Demon]

Well said, ddaryl.

Sal- Honestly, i can't believe you'd start this kind of topic after our argument from Friday about winning vs. losing. As ddaryl said himself, I also didn't want to "lose" for sake of losing prior to this season and like i said Friday, it's not about draft picks or where we pick, it's about WHO PICKS. You made it clear you a WIN is a WIN no matter what and if Perry Fewell keeps winning, he should be the coach next season. The WINS he has, are meaningless because we didn't go out and WIN, we were handed a win by poor teams.

For example, we had to fight Kansas City all the way to the end for a WIN. It took tons of breaks (Chambers dropped ball, deflection on Bryd's INT, among others) to WIN.... yesterday the Cleveland Browns went in there and scored 41 or something points against the SAME KC defense. Everyone priased Fewell for "finding" a way to rush against the WORST defense in the NFL (maybe ever!).... James Harrison goes out last night and runs for almost 300 yards on those guys. Fewell didn't figure anything out, in face, he should have ran a lot more and gained much more yards.

Every Bills game is simple game planing. Pats kept us to 3 points for ALMOST 4 quarters. Last night they were just as pathetic as in the Miami game that they won.

Point is, Pats looked awful last night. Tom Brady was bad. If we had any kind of offense, we win the game, even with Fewell as coach. Not because we out coached them (although our clock management in late 2nd quarter was a JOKE!!!!), not because we have a great QB, not because they couldn't stop our run, but because they played BAD. If they played almost any team in the league, Pats continue their winless streak away from home.

People are too easy to credit something based on the big picture (a win) and not break it down. These bozo's are running this team WORSE then Dick Jauron was and yet because he's playing weaker teams and getting a few wins because of teams handing us wins, people wanna jump over them and celebrate. Fact is, yesterday was Fewell's "interview" and he didn't pull anything out of his sleeve, didn't score a TD til late, showed amazing poor clock management skills and tried no tricky plays at all. He failed his interview and sorry, i am not one bit disappointed in the fact that we lost. I can see the bigger picture.

[trapezeus]

And Id say thats setteling for mediocrity. Which is exactly what we don't want. No offense.

i wouldn't disgree and no offense taken.

i think we should at the very least aspire to mediocrity since we are way below that right now. once we get in once, then we build to stay there.

we keep getting sold this **** about how they are building to get us to the promised land. forget building the dynasty. build a mildly ******ed/half competent team that can win a few games in the fourth quarter and is entertaining. that's the first baby step.

[Demon]

They suck because the talent evaluators at OBD is and has been the biggest problem in the organization for the better part of the decade.

It doesn't matter if we picked 1st, 5th, 10th, 25th...they'd still screw it up.

Exactly why these games have a lot of meaning to them.

Losing = meaningful loses because we'll assure ourselves of cleaning house.

Winning = meaningless because winning now, we may keep current guys on which will result in more losing next season and more draft drafts.

[yordad]

OK.

Let's go back to 2004.

Bills needed a win to make the playoffs. Steelers already have everything wrapped up, including home field. So, Pittsburgh uses it's JV team, errrr, backups, to play the Bills.

What happened?

The Steelers still won. Why?

Because that organization holds everyone to a certain standard. A standard of winning and accountability to win.

Didn't matter who played in that game for them.
Didn't matter what round they were drafted.
Didn't matter what position they played.
Didn't matter how much money they made.
Didn't matter the game was "meaningless."

If they were on the field, they were expected to play their ass off and win.

And they did.

That's why that organization has won 2 Super Bowl's this decade, despite drafting near the bottom of the 1st round every year.....and why we keep sucking despite drafting near the top.Sal, this is a reach. I am pretty sure no one is advocating they try and loss. No one "tries" to loss. People are advocating they put other priorities ahead. Like the game you mention, the Steelers but "staying healthy" as a higher priority to "winning". The Bills should give some of their younger, more talented players, some much needed experience while planning for the future.

Not to mention, "winning" didn't hurt the Steelers in your case, and your case is the exception, not the norm. It just so happened their thirds were better then our first.

[Nighthawk]

I know!!! There's also this other guy who goes on and on every week about how much Perry Fool sucks! :D

Who would that be...isn't me...I barely post on here anymore..or not nearly as much as I used to. Also, I'm not starting threads about it...

[Nighthawk]

That is a very good point.

Again, not really and in fact, Philagape posts how much he would like Fewell gone as much as me...if not more. So because I call him Perry Fool doesn't mean I'm posting about him all the time. God you guys can be so moronic sometimes.

[Nighthawk]

I get so frustrated reading these discussions.

The goal of any team, at any time is to win. Winning should be the only acceptable outcome at all times. We, as fans, derided Dick Jauron and his lose close attitude. We hated seeing Mularkey and Williams lose game after game. And now, we are supposed to have a lose first attitude? C'mon.

Besides, as Sal has stated a number of times, that is only a sub-part of this thread. People have complained about the team winning "meaningless" games in the past. That is simply untrue. They have not won those games. They have been losing in November and December for years.

Fact of the matter is that the fans that go to the games don't pay to see the team lose. I have seen enough of that in the past ten years to last me the rest of my life. I want to see wins. I want them to beat Atlanta next week and I sure as hell want them to beat the likely to be undefeated Colts in week 17. Winning is not just about ability and talent. It is also about mental, emotional and psychological well-being. The players on this team like Byrd, Maybin, Evans, Wood, Levitre, Nelson, Ellis, Harris, Whitner, McGee, Jackson, Lynch, Hardy, Johnson (Steve and Spencer) and so on need to be around wins. They need to be able to learn how to lead teams to victory.

It further confuses me as to how anybody that has ever competed at any level of athletics can ever think losing is OK. I was always the worst player on all of my teams, but losing still almost made me physically ill. I would literally feel churning in my stomach. I would have to contain my anger.

Jimmy Connors said it best: "I hate to lose more than I love to win"

This whole lose now, so you win in the future is bull ****. And has been proven to not be true, just as the winning meaningless games crap has been.

Just like the Bills have proven that winning a 6th or 7th game doesn't breed winning for the past few seasons? I'm sorry, you're no more correct then anybody who is looking for something to get excited about in regards to draft position is. There is absolutely ZERO proof that what you say is true...just like there is ZERO proof that picking higher gets you a better player. The fact is, the only reason that I don't mind them losing...and I'm only speaking for me...is that it gives me something to focus on in an otherwise crappy year. It continues my interest into the offseason and it gives me hope for the future that maybe they'll actually get a player that will help them. Now, with the Bills management history, it's hard to imagine them actually doing anything right, but it is something to look forward to. I just can't get excited about this team and looking forward to a new regime and the draft helps me through the torture of another losing season. I could care less how many games they win...if they're not getting to the playoffs and are not showing growth and improvement, then it doesn't matter to me. The ONLY thing I care about is this team getting better and WINNING a Championship. Finishing with a couple more wins does not get this any closer to being a championship team...it just doesn't. They need to get a great football mind in here to start making those draft picks count and then and only then, will this team start building a winning culture. You cannot build a winning culture with the coaches currently in place and their philosophy...it's been proven for the past 4 years. It's time change the entire organization and then a WINNING ATTITUDE will begin to be formed. Without that, you just have another losing team winning one more game...

[yordad]

JThere is absolutely ZERO proof that what you say is true...just like there is ZERO proof that picking higher gets you a better player. I think I am in the process of gathering that proof right now. link (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?p=3085172#post3085172)

[Philagape]

Philagape posts how much he would like Fewell gone as much as me...if not more.

come on, man ...

[Philagape]

Who would that be...isn't me...I barely post on here anymore..or not nearly as much as I used to. Also, I'm not starting threads about it...

http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?t=183930&highlight=perry

[Nighthawk]

http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?t=183930&highlight=perry

What's your f'n point??? So me posting it means I talk about it all the time??? You're on crack!

It's amazing how you guys make up s**t, just to make your point look correct. Unbelievable.

[Mr. Pink]

Exactly why these games have a lot of meaning to them.

Losing = meaningful loses because we'll assure ourselves of cleaning house.

Winning = meaningless because winning now, we may keep current guys on which will result in more losing next season and more draft drafts.


You assume that losing out would assure a major house cleaning.

I do not.

In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if our HC was Perry Fewell at this point next year regardless of how these final two games go.

[Philagape]

What's your f'n point??? So me posting it means I talk about it all the time??? You're on crack!

It's amazing how you guys make up s**t, just to make your point look correct. Unbelievable.

Dude, chill the hell out.
I have never seen anyone get so bi-polar whenever he's challenged. I better not say anything more lest you have an all-out conniption and announce you're leaving the site again.

[Demon]

You assume that losing out would assure a major house cleaning.

I do not.

In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if our HC was Perry Fewell at this point next year regardless of how these final two games go.
Theres NO WAY Fewell returns. Absolutely zero percent. Sorry to disappoint you.

[Dr. Lecter]

Again, not really and in fact, Philagape posts how much he would like Fewell gone as much as me...if not more. So because I call him Perry Fool doesn't mean I'm posting about him all the time. God you guys can be so moronic sometimes.

You are one of the last people here who should call others moronic.

It seems here that you are much more willing to call Sal arrogant, me moronic and throwing out the name calling with no problems instead of admitting that your own point of view is hypocritical.

[Coach Sal]

Sal, this is a reach. I am pretty sure no one is advocating they try and loss. No one "tries" to loss. People are advocating they put other priorities ahead. Like the game you mention, the Steelers but "staying healthy" as a higher priority to "winning". The Bills should give some of their younger, more talented players, some much needed experience while planning for the future.

Not to mention, "winning" didn't hurt the Steelers in your case, and your case is the exception, not the norm. It just so happened their thirds were better then our first.

How is it a reach? It's actually the very essence of my entire point. My point on how the Bills can become a better organization - a winning one.

The Steelers, as one example, are an organization that expects to win every game, regardless of circumstance or situation. They could be 1-14 or 14-1. 7-8 or 8-7. When they hit the field, their players are expected to play hard and play to win. From the head coach to the players to the waterboys this is true in that organization. That's why they are where they are. Not just because they picked a franchise QB high. Sure, that helps, but it's about the mentality, mindset, and standards put forth by the organization.

Why would anyone rather be like the Bills have been for the past ten years and continually pick in the top-12.....when they could be like the Steelers have been and EXPECT to win every single game - no excuses - no matter who is playing or what the situation?

So I don't agree at all that the Steelers 3rd stringers were better than our 1st stringers. Again, this is my point. They just have the same expectations and standards as their own 1st stringers when they play. And ours don't.

Until we do, too many people will continue to "hope" for that great savior draft pick to bail us out.

I don't want to hope for the savior. I want to have better standards.

That's all my point has been all along.

[Mr. Pink]

Theres NO WAY Fewell returns. Absolutely zero percent. Sorry to disappoint you.


Yeah, it would be so disappointing if he didn't.

I will guarantee though we're gonna get some bum along the lines of Haslett as HC if it's not Fewell coming back.

No big name is gonna come here and that fact should already be cemented in everyone's mind by now.

[Dr. Lecter]

What's your f'n point??? So me posting it means I talk about it all the time??? You're on crack!

It's amazing how you guys make up s**t, just to make your point look correct. Unbelievable.


lol!

Like how Sal is " preaching" like he is all knowing?

Sorry to tell you this - you come off more arrogant than Sal does. You might not be DraftBoy, but still you are more condescending than many here.

BTW, the idea that losing out will help this team clean house and will lead to better picks is made up **** too.

You continue to ignore the premise of his thread:

This team has been essentially losing out for years. Yet, Modrak and Guy are still here and losing out last year did not cost Jauron his job.

And we are making up ****?

[Nighthawk]

Dude, chill the hell out.
I have never seen anyone get so bi-polar whenever he's challenged. I better not say anything more lest you have an all-out conniption and announce you're leaving the site again.

Listen, I'm chill and you can say that I don't like Fewell...that's fair, but please don't make s**t up. I can take it...hell, I dish it out, but I won't make up ***** to make you or anybody look bad.

Nothing personal and I shouldn't have flipped, but I got big things riding on tonight's football game for Fantasy Football and it's got me on edge! :oops:

[Nighthawk]

lol!

Like how Sal is " preaching" like he is all knowing?

Sorry to tell you this - you come off more arrogant than Sal does. You might not be DraftBoy, but still you are more condescending than many here.

BTW, the idea that losing out will help this team clean house and will lead to better picks is made up **** too.

You continue to ignore the premise of his thread:

This team has been essentially losing out for years. Yet, Modrak and Guy are still here and losing out last year did not cost Jauron his job.

And we are making up ****?

And your premise is made up **** too...when has winning one more game in a losing season led to the breeding of a winner in Buffalo the last few years? Am I missing something or didn't I say that neither side is correct on this subject??? Oh yeah, you're continue to ignore that to make yourself seem to be correct...what a joke.

[Nighthawk]

You are one of the last people here who should call others moronic.

It seems here that you are much more willing to call Sal arrogant, me moronic and throwing out the name calling with no problems instead of admitting that your own point of view is hypocritical.

Oh yeah, you're right...I go around calling you out and all that ***** in other threads...dude you seriously must either be crazy or just don't realize what the hell you're saying. The point is YOU ARE NOT RIGHT! The point is I AM NOT RIGHT! It is a way to get through the season and accept the crapiness that is the Buffalo Bills...that's it!!!! That's the only reason that I have given for why I don't mind them losing out!

[Nighthawk]

lol!

Like how Sal is " preaching" like he is all knowing?

Sorry to tell you this - you come off more arrogant than Sal does. You might not be DraftBoy, but still you are more condescending than many here.

BTW, the idea that losing out will help this team clean house and will lead to better picks is made up **** too.

You continue to ignore the premise of his thread:

This team has been essentially losing out for years. Yet, Modrak and Guy are still here and losing out last year did not cost Jauron his job.

And we are making up ****?

Ummm, he didn't lose out...are you forgetting that "nice" Denver victory that you and others were so giddy about? That essentially saved Jauron from the axe and kept him here into this year. I did not want that to happen again this year.

[Dr. Lecter]

And your premise is made up **** too...when has winning one more game in a losing season led to the breeding of a winner in Buffalo the last few years? Am I missing something or didn't I say that neither side is correct on this subject??? Oh yeah, you're continue to ignore that to make yourself seem to be correct...what a joke.

It is about winning more than one game. It is about winning games and changing culture. That does not happen by simply being able to draft Sam Bradford or Okung.

And how do you justify ripping others for settling for "mediocrity" when you are rooitng for losses, the very defintion of mediocrity????

[Nighthawk]

It is about winning more than one game. It is about winning games and changing culture. That does not happen by simply being able to draft Sam Bradford or Okung.

And how do you justify ripping others for settling for "mediocrity" when you are rooitng for losses, the very defintion of mediocrity????

I want change...that isn't accepting of mediocrity. IMO, getting excited over one more win in a losing season is the acceptance of mediocrity. Trust me, I played sports...I know that winning is everything and always want to win. However, this is entertainment and the entertainment needs to get better. First you have to replace the actors (GM & Scouts & Coach) then you create a culture to breed winnning. It is not possible to breed winning in the environment they currently have there now...that's all I've ever said.

[Philagape]

Listen, I'm chill and you can say that I don't like Fewell...that's fair, but please don't make s**t up. I can take it...hell, I dish it out, but I won't make up ***** to make you or anybody look bad.


You said you don't start threads on it, and I showed you one. That's all I did. All in good fun, but so much for that ....

[Nighthawk]

You said you don't start threads on it, and I showed you one. That's all I did. All in good fun, but so much for that ....

See, there you go again...you left out the rest of my post just so you could throw the little dagger in at the end. You left out the part where I apologized to you...unbelievable...it really is.

[Philagape]

That it is.