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Canadian'eh!
12-31-2009, 02:15 PM
Buddy Nix does not make me happy.

More internal "inner-circle" bull****.

I've had it. I've had enough of the "we just need to pray we are super lucky" philosophy of running a team.

So I'm going to become a NOMAD NFL fan UNLESS:

The next head coach of the Bills must be on of Bill Cowher, John Gruden, Tony Dungy, Marty Schottenhiemer or some surprisingly avaiable quality experienced HC.

The next PC will determine if i'm going towaste anymore time praying this team actually amkes me happy for once, or finally seals my fate as a fan only of the game itself.

I'm leaving the door open for a sudden Shanahan change of heart, or a shocking firing/hiring of Bill Belichek.

But short of a quality HC, I'm done wating my time if they aren't in this to win.

THATHURMANATOR
12-31-2009, 02:15 PM
GOOD RIDDANCE!!!!!

WE DON'T NEED YOU.

The Spaz
12-31-2009, 02:17 PM
Go root for the Tiger Cats or something...

Nighthawk
12-31-2009, 02:17 PM
GOOD RIDDANCE!!!!!

WE DON'T NEED YOU.

Stop...is it far fetched that a Bills fan would be tired of the mediocrity??? I'm hoping this gives us a great chance to land Schotty...but if we go with a hire like Haslett, then I will then know this organization doesn't give a **** about winning...just saving a buck.

Canadian'eh!
12-31-2009, 02:17 PM
Actually you do.... you don't need any fans leaving... or the team will be in Toronto in 3 years.

Demon
12-31-2009, 02:18 PM
Buddy Nix does not make me happy.

More internal "inner-circle" bull****.

I've had it. I've had enough of the "we just need to pray we are super lucky" philosophy of running a team.

So I'm going to become a NOMAD NFL fan UNLESS:

The next head coach of the Bills must be on of Bill Cowher, John Gruden, Tony Dungy, Marty Schottenhiemer or some surprisingly avaiable quality experienced HC.

The next PC will determine if i'm going towaste anymore time praying this team actually amkes me happy for once, or finally seals my fate as a fan only of the game itself.

I'm leaving the door open for a sudden Shanahan change of heart, or a shocking firing/hiring of Bill Belichek.

But short of a quality HC, I'm done wating my time if they aren't in this to win.

Why do people do that to themselves? We have ZERO chance to land any of those. We will offer Schottenhiemer to be coach, and if he rejects us, it's going to be Fassel, Haslett or some other bum.

SquishDaFish
12-31-2009, 02:18 PM
PEACE!!!

THATHURMANATOR
12-31-2009, 02:18 PM
Stop...is that far fetched that a Bills fan would be tired of the mediocrity??? I'm hoping this gives us a great chance to land Schotty...but if we go with a hire like Haslett, then I will then know this organization doesn't give a **** about winning...just saving a buck.
No and in fact people are free to do what they like. To me re nouncing the Bills is out of the question. NO MATTER WHAT!!!!

realdealryan
12-31-2009, 02:20 PM
I've got two 8th row tix available for this Sunday if you're interested.

hammerbillsfan
12-31-2009, 02:22 PM
Go root for the Tiger Cats or something...

hey! :mad:

Canadian'eh!
12-31-2009, 02:24 PM
No and in fact people are free to do what they like. To me re nouncing the Bills is out of the question. NO MATTER WHAT!!!!

even when they are the Tornto Bills ebcause everyone got sick of losing?

The road trips up there will be great Thurm. better looking women, better beer and nicer clubs....

I'm sure you'll love it.

Nighthawk
12-31-2009, 02:24 PM
No and in fact people are free to do what they like. To me re nouncing the Bills is out of the question. NO MATTER WHAT!!!!

Stop...just stop...you're not greater a fan then him. He's just unhappy and frustrated...stop with the "Holier Than Thou" attitude.

BillsWin
12-31-2009, 02:24 PM
Does anyone really care what you think anyways? EH!?

justasportsfan
12-31-2009, 02:26 PM
Ciao!

Canadian'eh!
12-31-2009, 02:28 PM
Does anyone really care what you think anyways? EH!?

you did enough to reply.

Canadian'eh!
12-31-2009, 02:29 PM
Ciao!

see ya

hydro
12-31-2009, 02:31 PM
Please don't comeback. A fan that ever thinks about not following a team because he didn't get his way wasn't that big of a fan in the first place.

realdealryan
12-31-2009, 02:31 PM
I understand your frustration, but if you're done, you just quit logging in.

yordad
12-31-2009, 02:32 PM
Buddy Nix does not make me happy.

More internal "inner-circle" bull****.

I've had it. I've had enough of the "we just need to pray we are super lucky" philosophy of running a team.

So I'm going to become a NOMAD NFL fan UNLESS:

The next head coach of the Bills must be on of Bill Cowher, John Gruden, Tony Dungy, Marty Schottenhiemer or some surprisingly avaiable quality experienced HC.

The next PC will determine if i'm going towaste anymore time praying this team actually amkes me happy for once, or finally seals my fate as a fan only of the game itself.

I'm leaving the door open for a sudden Shanahan change of heart, or a shocking firing/hiring of Bill Belichek.

But short of a quality HC, I'm done wating my time if they aren't in this to win.Sleep it off. You will be back. If you were being honest, and not posting out of anger, you would have waited for the coach hire so you didn't have to make the stipulation.

Besides, I don't know what I would do with two fan cards anyways.

Canadian'eh!
12-31-2009, 02:32 PM
Why do people do that to themselves? We have ZERO chance to land any of those. We will offer Schottenhiemer to be coach, and if he rejects us, it's going to be Fassel, Haslett or some other bum.


In which case i will be released from this hell knowing I gave this team a hell of a lot of my money and support and time for many many years, and they stopped returning my loyalty by not realyl givign a crap.

If i gave my wife all my loyalty, money and time and then i found out she was just using me for those things and really had no interest in returning the same level of dedication. I'd leave her and find someone who will.

So being a fan of a team is like a marriage. both sides have to feel the same way or you move on. If they can't get a real coach and they are just using us for our money... **** them.

Nighthawk
12-31-2009, 02:32 PM
Please don't comeback. A fan that ever thinks about not following a team because he didn't get his way wasn't that big of a fan in the first place.

You guys really NEED to stop judging people.

Canadian'eh!
12-31-2009, 02:33 PM
Please don't comeback. A fan that ever thinks about not following a team because he didn't get his way wasn't that big of a fan in the first place.

see my lasty post.... But basically, this is a load of ****. It's not not geting my way. it's that there is no dedication to the fans to give us what we deserve.

BoyILuvLoznStupidly
12-31-2009, 02:34 PM
Before you leave can I have your zone bucks?

Canadian'eh!
12-31-2009, 02:35 PM
Sleep it off. You will be back. If you were being honest, and not posting out of anger, you would have waited for the coach hire so you didn't have to make the stipulation.

Besides, I don't know what I would do with two fan cards anyways.

Trust me... i've been thinking of this since last year when they announced Jauron was coming back. A year of feeling like this team didn't care about winning, this is the last chance for me to believe in this organization again. I love Sunday football, and this team is making me lose interest.... I actually went to a movie with my wife last sunday instead of watching any football.

wow.

Canadian'eh!
12-31-2009, 02:35 PM
Before you leave can I have your zone bucks?

nah... i'm not leaving the BZ. I'll stay as a troll. moihahahahahaha Thurm would miss me too much.

hydro
12-31-2009, 02:49 PM
You guys really NEED to stop judging people.

It's an opinion. Live with it.

Nighthawk
12-31-2009, 02:50 PM
It's an opinion. Live with it.

No, it's a judgement...and it's foolish.

hydro
12-31-2009, 02:54 PM
No, it's a judgement...and it's foolish.

No not really. This whole thread is a overreaction. I will bet all my Zbs the OP never leaves this forum and will be just as much of a fan as he ever was. So why go out and look like an ass after stating that you are done with the team?

Nighthawk
12-31-2009, 02:55 PM
No not really. This whole thread is a overreaction. I will bet all my Zbs the OP never leaves this forum and will be just as much of a fan as he ever was. So why go out and look like an ass after stating that you are done with the team?

Agreed and that is why I was telling you and Thurm to layoff. We all know that nobody really means it, they're just pissed off at that moment and need to relax.

DBrown77
12-31-2009, 03:08 PM
There are many around here that need a fan card

ChristopherWalken
12-31-2009, 03:22 PM
Why not wait and see how things pan out before cashing out?

Nix and Cowher have some strong ties.

dannyek71
12-31-2009, 04:06 PM
I've got two 8th row tix available for this Sunday if you're interested.


Too far away for me.

superbills
12-31-2009, 04:11 PM
This whole thread is an abortion. And, no, I don't know why I read it in the first place.

Canadian'eh!
01-13-2010, 01:13 PM
Well... almost time to put this baby up on Ebay.

Maybe I'll try to find a new team instead fo being a nomad. Mostly because it would piss more people off.

realdealryan
01-13-2010, 01:18 PM
Why do you keep posting? If you're done, you're done - and go away. You're not holding it over our heads, so quit bumping this stupid thread.

Canadian'eh!
01-13-2010, 01:21 PM
Why do you keep posting? If you're done, you're done - and go away. You're not holding it over our heads, so quit bumping this stupid thread.

I told you... I'm not leaving BZ... just not gonna be a Bills fan.

Thanks for caring enough to post though.

Iehoshua
01-13-2010, 01:23 PM
I'm kinda lethargic toward the team right now. The coaching situation looks like an exercise in futility, as the best bet is rolling the dice.

Try as I might, unless they moved out of Buffalo, I can't ever give up on 'em. I do sympathize though and understand those that would feel that way.

My suggestion would be to distance the ties, emotional investment, and don't spend the money. The burden of proof is in the organization's hands to show they want to win. Til they do, it isn't up to the fan to finance a perpetual losing franchise.

Canadian'eh!
01-13-2010, 01:26 PM
I'm kinda lethargic toward the team right now. The coaching situation looks like an exercise in futility, as the best bet is rolling the dice.

Try as I might, unless they moved out of Buffalo, I can't ever give up on 'em. I do sympathize though and understand those that would feel that way.

My suggestion would be to distance the ties, emotional investment, and don't spend the money. The burden of proof is in the organization's hands to show they want to win. Til they do, it isn't up to the fan to finance a perpetual losing franchise.

The worst part is, I actually think they ARE trying a bit now. Only they are SO inept and have burned so many bridges, they can't even bring in people who have the ability...

good work.

THATHURMANATOR
01-13-2010, 01:28 PM
Give it to me. I will throw it right in the trash where it belongs
Buddy Nix does not make me happy.

More internal "inner-circle" bull****.

I've had it. I've had enough of the "we just need to pray we are super lucky" philosophy of running a team.

So I'm going to become a NOMAD NFL fan UNLESS:

The next head coach of the Bills must be on of Bill Cowher, John Gruden, Tony Dungy, Marty Schottenhiemer or some surprisingly avaiable quality experienced HC.

The next PC will determine if i'm going towaste anymore time praying this team actually amkes me happy for once, or finally seals my fate as a fan only of the game itself.

I'm leaving the door open for a sudden Shanahan change of heart, or a shocking firing/hiring of Bill Belichek.

But short of a quality HC, I'm done wating my time if they aren't in this to win.

Iehoshua
01-13-2010, 01:28 PM
The worst part is, I actually think they ARE trying a bit now. Only they are SO inept and have burned so many bridges, they can't even bring in people who have the ability...

good work.
Trying isn't enough. Need to see results. Not saying win or even go to the Superbowl every season, just a competitive team, that's in or vying for the playoffs consistently.

ddaryl
01-13-2010, 01:34 PM
I'm feeling very similiar right now. I need to be able to be hopeful that great things will happen to remain a diehard fan, and as of right now most Bills forums insist on pissing on those who do remain hopeful. The media is apparently more then over joyed to report how we won't be landing any coach besides Frazier, and we've seen how horrible this franchise is being run top to bottom...

I'll always be a Bills fan, but I just might not be watching the games and I will probably start a seperation process this offseason... It will basically take a few miracles to save this organization short term, and I'm not sure I can endure the emotions that have been stirred up these last 3 or so years.

I honestly feel hatred, anger, dissapointent, and frustration at extreme levels while following this team... Why should anyone endure that at the levels we've been forcefed ?

I had hopes that we would get a great coach this time, but the reality is there is way too much damage done now. I had thought that we hit bottom and Ralph wisened up, but the truth his Ralph's final epiphany came way too late....

Canadian'eh!
01-13-2010, 01:38 PM
Give it to me. I will throw it right in the trash where it belongs

As soon as we hire Fraizer (aka the token black coach who interviews for every job even though he'd never get one until nowbecause teh Bills have nop other options), it will be on Ebay and you can bid on it and do whatever you like.

THATHURMANATOR
01-13-2010, 01:40 PM
As soon as we hire Fraizer (aka the token black coach who interviews for every job even though he'd never get one until nowbecause teh Bills have nop other options), it will be on Ebay and you can bid on it and do whatever you like.
Cool I will probably wipe my ass with it then flush it down the toilet

Canadian'eh!
01-13-2010, 01:44 PM
Cool I will probably wipe my ass with it then flush it down the toilet

That was plan B for me too! I'll be sure to sprinkle it with itch powder before I send it to you. I hope you meet the reserve bid.

THATHURMANATOR
01-13-2010, 01:46 PM
That was plan B for me too! I'll be sure to sprinkle it with itch powder before I send it to you. I hope you meet the reserve bid.
I will probably just throw it in the toilet then and **** right on it.

Billz_fan
01-13-2010, 01:47 PM
Buddy Nix does not make me happy.

More internal "inner-circle" bull****.

I've had it. I've had enough of the "we just need to pray we are super lucky" philosophy of running a team.

So I'm going to become a NOMAD NFL fan UNLESS:

The next head coach of the Bills must be on of Bill Cowher, John Gruden, Tony Dungy, Marty Schottenhiemer or some surprisingly avaiable quality experienced HC.

The next PC will determine if i'm going towaste anymore time praying this team actually amkes me happy for once, or finally seals my fate as a fan only of the game itself.

I'm leaving the door open for a sudden Shanahan change of heart, or a shocking firing/hiring of Bill Belichek.

But short of a quality HC, I'm done wating my time if they aren't in this to win.


Actually I feel similar to this. It's been 30+ years, However I have tapered my anger and frustration over the years to where now I don't get overly sick to my stomach or severly depressed after losses anymore. In fact I can laugh when they pull bonehead plays or ice or own kicker etc etc.

So I stay. They have become the lovable losers to me :laughter:

NOT THE DUDE...
01-13-2010, 01:50 PM
dont let the door hit u on the way out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Canadian'eh!
01-13-2010, 01:52 PM
I will probably just throw it in the toilet then and **** right on it.

suit yourself. But you can't possibly make it more ****ty than the ACTUAL Bills Franchise.

Canadian'eh!
01-13-2010, 01:52 PM
dont let the door hit u on the way out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It won't. Thank you for caring about me enough to post and warn me about the door.

Canadian'eh!
01-13-2010, 01:54 PM
Actually I feel similar to this. It's been 30+ years, However I have tapered my anger and frustration over the years to where now I don't get overly sick to my stomach or severly depressed after losses anymore. In fact I can laugh when they pull bonehead plays or ice or own kicker etc etc.

So I stay. They have become the lovable losers to me :laughter:

When it was bad luck and all that, I could live with the losses. But now I realize that the owner and all his crap over the years has caught up with him to the point that he CAN'T turn things around while still owning the team. His reputation is so horrible as a cheapskate, meddler and backstabber, that no one wants to even work for him unless they have no choice.

NOT THE DUDE...
01-13-2010, 01:59 PM
when we trade for mcnabb dont come crying back......

THATHURMANATOR
01-13-2010, 02:18 PM
when we trade for mcnabb dont come crying back......
Nope I already **** all over his card and FLUSHED IT TO THE SEWAR WHERE IT BELONGS!!!!

Billz_fan
01-13-2010, 02:20 PM
when we trade for mcnabb dont come crying back......

I like Mcnabb but he couldn't win the trophy with better players and coaches over the last decade. I don't think he is gonna be a magic bullet by any means.

Billz_fan
01-13-2010, 02:21 PM
Nope I already **** all over his card and FLUSHED IT TO THE SEWAR WHERE IT BELONGS!!!!

lol


(oops I forgot I wasn't posed to lol you) :D

TrEd FTW
01-13-2010, 02:22 PM
Wave the white flag. We're ****ed. Not sure it's ever been bleaker for a Bills fan.

ParanoidAndroid
01-13-2010, 02:29 PM
Comon.... we all know, if you were a fan once, you'll always be rooting for them in the back of your mind and when they are good again, you'll be right back on the bandwagon no matter how hard you try to pretend you are not a fan in this forum.

What you are doing is putting up a temporary emotional shield or, perhaps playing a role that seems fun for you. I find no substance or truth in your rant.

G Wolly
01-13-2010, 02:31 PM
Actually you do.... you don't need any fans leaving... or the team will be in Toronto in 3 years.

So you can ***** about the team from your own home instead of coming here to watch the mediocrity?

Canadian'eh!
01-13-2010, 04:44 PM
So you can ***** about the team from your own home instead of coming here to watch the mediocrity?

Toronto is NOT my home. Anymore than Miami is yours.

Demon
01-13-2010, 04:46 PM
Wave the white flag. We're ****ed. Not sure it's ever been bleaker for a Bills fan.

No, i honestly don't think it has. We may have hit rock bottom. When will the bleeding end??!!?!

Cntrygal
01-13-2010, 06:13 PM
skiing in subzero weather....






<--------------------------------

Is less painful than watching the Bills and the actions (lack thereof) of the FO.

elltrain22
01-13-2010, 07:22 PM
Sorry, but being a fan means alot of things. It means your loyal, it means you love unconditionally, and it means you never, ever turn your back on your guys. I'm not gonna bash anyone, b/c everyones entitled to their own opinion, I just know that no matter what, I will always love this team w/ all my heart!!

Dying_-2-_Live
01-13-2010, 07:41 PM
id gladly take it... ive got room for 2
:P

G Wolly
01-13-2010, 08:15 PM
Toronto is NOT my home. Anymore than Miami is yours.

Oh Canada, OUR HOME and native land...

DMBcrew36
01-13-2010, 08:31 PM
I'm as frustrated as anyone (as frustated at Canadien'eh or more). I'm to the point where I want to say to the Bills, 'eff you', and find another team. But finding another team just isn't an option. I immediately shutter at the thought - I'd be as bad as those pathetic bandwagonning Boston Patriot/Bruins/Red Sox/Celtics losers who abandoned each respective team for YEARS until they were major contenders. The Bills are our team, no matter how pathetic they are.

To say that they have to hire one of those coaches is ridiculous. Pretty much all of them have already been ruled out completely. I'm more realistic. Right now I think, the Bills need to get Russ Grimm for me to at least be somewhat appeased. If not Grimm, just give Fewell a 1-yr deal/tryout. At least he's something of an anti-Jauron, making the guys practice outdoors and actually being critical sometimes.

The Bills aren't going anywhere until they get a serviceable QB, anyway, and none are available this Summer.

Philagape
01-13-2010, 09:07 PM
This franchise doesn't deserve good fans.

But, at least for me, it's like you can't choose your relatives .... :sigh:
When it's been ingrained for life, I can't just turn it off.

Fletch
01-14-2010, 07:39 AM
Stop...is it far fetched that a Bills fan would be tired of the mediocrity???
Some people just enjoy a good BOHICA!

;)

Fletch
01-14-2010, 07:39 AM
This franchise doesn't deserve good fans.

It really doesn't. It hasn't earned them.

Fletch
01-14-2010, 07:45 AM
I'm as frustrated as anyone (as frustated at Canadien'eh or more). I'm to the point where I want to say to the Bills, 'eff you', and find another team. But finding another team just isn't an option.

No, but not wasting your time/money on this team is.

You are a football fan, right? What's wrong with simply watching football for the pure enjoyment of the sport?

I mean does watching the Bills actually provide you with any level of enjoyment?

Did you enjoy watching the Cleveland game? The Jets game? Which games provided good football on the part of the Bills this season, win or lose?

I would rather see us go 6-10 getting beat by good football teams while playing good football ourselves rather than beating teams like Carolina, Indy with their second and third team in there making a mockery of the game, Tampa, and KC almost by accident.

The people telling you to go root for another team have mental problems.

Canadian'eh!
01-14-2010, 09:14 AM
FRAIZER = SEE YA SUCKERS.

what a joke of a franchis this is. Die Ralphie Die.

THATHURMANATOR
01-14-2010, 09:45 AM
FRAIZER = SEE YA SUCKERS.

what a joke of a franchis this is. Die Ralphie Die.
I already **** all over your Fan Card man. It is floating around in some sewar along with the other band wagon *****es.

Tatonka
01-14-2010, 09:49 AM
i understand how some of you feel.. i sold all but 1 of my jerseys, and only kept that one because it is personalized.. most of my bills gear is gone.. i still watch the the games but i won't spend a penny on the team from here forward. i have already wasted too much.. they owe me a refund check for ripping me off for 20 years.

it would just be nice to root for a team that actually gave a **** about its fans and made football enjoyable... i root for the bills simply because I have been doing it for so long.. i dont know another way.. but i hate them right now.

ParanoidAndroid
01-14-2010, 09:59 AM
FRAIZER = SEE YA SUCKERS.

what a joke of a franchis this is. Die Ralphie Die.

I will take the lack of response to my earlier post to mean that I'm right.

Canadian'eh!
01-14-2010, 10:06 AM
Comon.... we all know, if you were a fan once, you'll always be rooting for them in the back of your mind and when they are good again, you'll be right back on the bandwagon no matter how hard you try to pretend you are not a fan in this forum.

What you are doing is putting up a temporary emotional shield or, perhaps playing a role that seems fun for you. I find no substance or truth in your rant.

Only after Ralph is dead an buried, and the new owners must be keeping the team in Buffalo and try a hell of a lot harder.

Canadian'eh!
01-14-2010, 10:07 AM
I already **** all over your Fan Card man. It is floating around in some sewar along with the other band wagon *****es.

Nope sorry. It hasn't gone up on ebay until the coaching hire is official. But since i'm 100% sure we aren't geting Cowher or Marty S. I am gettign it ready.

I'm also gonna have a no thurm rule assocaited

DMBcrew36
01-14-2010, 10:49 AM
No, but not wasting your time/money on this team is.

You are a football fan, right? What's wrong with simply watching football for the pure enjoyment of the sport?



Actually, I'm kindof sick of football. The Bills may have sucked the life out of it somewhat, but in general, the NFL product just isn't doing it for me like it was when the season started. Even with the playoffs this past weekend, the only game that I found worth watching was the Patriots/Ravens game, because I wanted the Patriots to be absolutely destroyed. As far as the rest of the games went, I flipped some regular season NHL game on - they were more entertaining because there is inherently more continuous action; the pace of an NFL game is slow.

northernbillfan
01-14-2010, 01:43 PM
I hear Can. I too have been frustrated to the point of considering turning in my fan card. Cheering for the Bills will do that to anyone.

How many people here can honestly say they haven't once considered not buying seasons, not buying a jersey or even watching games at some point in their life?

However there is no way I give up well over 25 years of fandom due to frustrations at what the FO does or doesn't do. I have too much emotional attachment to the team to throw it away because of decisions made at One Bills Drive. NOt to mention the twenty jerseys and cards, and McFarlane figures and game gloves and all the other memorbilia I've amassed over the years.

I am a Bills fan, I remain a Bills and I will always be a Bills fan to the day I die. Fan card NOT for sale.

McBFLO
01-14-2010, 01:44 PM
Buddy Nix does not make me happy.

More internal "inner-circle" bull****.

I've had it. I've had enough of the "we just need to pray we are super lucky" philosophy of running a team.

So I'm going to become a NOMAD NFL fan UNLESS:

The next head coach of the Bills must be on of Bill Cowher, John Gruden, Tony Dungy, Marty Schottenhiemer or some surprisingly avaiable quality experienced HC.

The next PC will determine if i'm going towaste anymore time praying this team actually amkes me happy for once, or finally seals my fate as a fan only of the game itself.

I'm leaving the door open for a sudden Shanahan change of heart, or a shocking firing/hiring of Bill Belichek.

But short of a quality HC, I'm done wating my time if they aren't in this to win.


See ya later!

Canadian'eh!
01-18-2010, 05:05 PM
You know.... I thought this thread would maybe turn the tide and possibly lead to the Bills REALLY hiring a good coach.

Chan Gailey? Honestly? How is he different than Jauron? Retread HC who sucked and was fired a bunch of times. But he's cheap, and he's been a HC....

Somebig splash.....like when you take a dump and it splashes the toilet water back up into your *******.

I'm posting my fan card the minute this happens